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Starmer’s challenge: LAB starts in an almost impossible position – politicalbetting.com

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  • isamisam Posts: 38,441

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner. Although the subtitles say "most". "Most" makes no sense, but let's see. The subtitles also say "In Charlie's" rather than "inshallah"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    It is a shocking translation.

    On so many levels.
    Maybe "Charlie's" is the wine bar - on level 4!
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,944

    Unsurprisingly Lord Adonis is very much not happy with the new 'Make Brexit Work" slogan.

    Which strengthens my argument that it's a pretty good slogan.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Doesn't a mosque have to have minarets? Otherwise it is a masjid?

    Though obviously you know better than me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    Hang on.

    Those people are British citizens.

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to open a mosque? Or a church? Or an Anne summers?

    Unless they are actually hurting other people, it's none of your business
    And as it happens, there's a long-empty site right next door. If anyone wants to set up a Patriotic English Bazaar, with a distinctly Christian Chapel on the second floor, best of luck to them.

    And the key thing is this. Debenhams closed. Would anyone really rather leave the site empty to avoid having foreigners buying and selling in it?
    As Rob Smithson says, British citizens are entitled to open churches, mosques, whatever, if the law allows it

    However, British citizens are also allowed to dislike drastic racial/cultural change, and they are allowed to dislike aspects of Islam, even Islam itself. Just as an atheist can despise Christianity and hate church bells

    Would I be happy if Camden went from 80% white to 80% Muslim in a decade? No, I'd be absolutely horrified, and I'd also probably move.
    You can dislike church bells and the call to prayer but if you move near a church or mosque, tough, what did you expect?
    But what if the churches or mosques come to you? And your neighborhood changes, drastically - in racial and cultural ways - in a short space of time?

    Very few people like this. It's why you get white flight.

    The desire to be with your own kind is universal, it is why incomers congregate together. It's why there are Chinatowns all over the world.

    Ignoring it or dismissing it as bigotry is silly. It does not mean you think less of others
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner. Although the subtitles say "most". "Most" makes no sense, but let's see. The subtitles also say "In Charlie's" rather than "inshallah"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    It is a shocking translation.

    On so many levels.
    Maybe "Charlie's" is the wine bar - on level 4!
    Wouldn't surprise me given how much alcohol muslims in this country sell.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    Hang on.

    Those people are British citizens.

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to open a mosque? Or a church? Or an Anne summers?

    Unless they are actually hurting other people, it's none of your business
    And as it happens, there's a long-empty site right next door. If anyone wants to set up a Patriotic English Bazaar, with a distinctly Christian Chapel on the second floor, best of luck to them.

    And the key thing is this. Debenhams closed. Would anyone really rather leave the site empty to avoid having foreigners buying and selling in it?
    Ah, so you believe me about the Mosque now

    Stage One: "You're lying"
    Stage Two: "OK you're not, (Not actually said) But so what anyway?"

    Like clockwork
    A prayer room is hardly a mosque.

    Still, Enoch was right in your eyes, I suppose...
    The owner calls it a mosque!!!
    If there is demand, I have no problem with it. It is a free country.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited September 29
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:


    It's one of those cases where you think, ah, hang him. Why not? Why should we pay to keep him alive?

    There's no mistake here, clearly, but mistakes do happen even if rare. Prison is at least reversable.

    However, a majority have long supported hanging or similar, I am surprised it is not more of a political issue.
    The Establishment keeps a lid on public opinion, in this case. But it is surprising that someone populist but sane like Farage has not ever gone near it

    A referendum on the issue would be a close run thing, and could EASILY be won by the hangers -as you say, they are the majority in most polls

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/legal/articles-reports/2019/10/01/brits-want-harsher-punishments-criminals
    Clear Brexit divide there, 51% of Leavers back the death penalty for all cases of murder as do 40% of Conservative voters, 64% of Remainers and 55% of Labour voters are opposed.

    However even a plurality of Labour voters back the death penalty for child murderers and terrorists and serial killers, as do a majority of Conservative voters, though Remainers and LDs still opposed ( since that poll some Labour voters are now voting Tory given it was based on 2017 vote)
  • Foxy said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Doesn't a mosque have to have minarets? Otherwise it is a masjid?

    Though obviously you know better than me.
    Yah, minarets is another deal breaker.

    In this country masjid and mosque have become interchangeable among Muslims.

    Then there's if they announce the azaan five times a day.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,570

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,022
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:


    It's one of those cases where you think, ah, hang him. Why not? Why should we pay to keep him alive?

    There's no mistake here, clearly, but mistakes do happen even if rare. Prison is at least reversable.

    However, a majority have long supported hanging or similar, I am surprised it is not more of a political issue.
    The Establishment keeps a lid on public opinion, in this case. But it is surprising that someone populist but sane like Farage has not ever gone near it

    A referendum on the issue would be a close run thing, and could EASILY be won by the hangers -as you say, they are the majority in most polls

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/legal/articles-reports/2019/10/01/brits-want-harsher-punishments-criminals
    Farage has always been anti-capital punishment. Surprising but true.
    If we can't have capital punishment for cases like Couzens, then there needs to be a special punishment for "police" who kill, just as there should be for people who kill police. I suggest life imprisonment, without parole, and solitary confinement, until death, and with the option of suicide if you want

    It cuts both ways, for the police
    I could never get behind capital punishment for anyone.That doesn't mean, however, that I have any sympathies with heinous criminals.

    I think that all prisoners with long tariffs should be given the open-ended option of a Dignitas-type dispatch. Would reduce prison numbers, save the Exchequer a packet and rid the population for good of the worst of the worst.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    Unsurprisingly Lord Adonis is very much not happy with the new 'Make Brexit Work" slogan.

    Which strengthens my argument that it's a pretty good slogan.
    It is a good slogan. As vague as the original, and emphasises the failure of the Tories to deliver sunlight uplands.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,675
    IshmaelZ said:

    Just heard some of the speech

    Without exaggeration I think the in 2010 I was prosecuting terrorists, he was writing pieces about bicycle helmets, point the weakest I have ever heard made. That's what prosecutors and journalists respectively do. So what?

    And the levelling up/ filling up "joke." Jesus. I wanted this speech to be a success. I think pb has been kinder to it than it deserved.

    Yeah, the point about Boris resigning at the time of the Salisbury attacks would be much stronger in this regard.
  • Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    Hang on.

    Those people are British citizens.

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to open a mosque? Or a church? Or an Anne summers?

    Unless they are actually hurting other people, it's none of your business
    And as it happens, there's a long-empty site right next door. If anyone wants to set up a Patriotic English Bazaar, with a distinctly Christian Chapel on the second floor, best of luck to them.

    And the key thing is this. Debenhams closed. Would anyone really rather leave the site empty to avoid having foreigners buying and selling in it?
    As Rob Smithson says, British citizens are entitled to open churches, mosques, whatever, if the law allows it

    However, British citizens are also allowed to dislike drastic racial/cultural change, and they are allowed to dislike aspects of Islam, even Islam itself. Just as an atheist can despise Christianity and hate church bells

    Would I be happy if Camden went from 80% white to 80% Muslim in a decade? No, I'd be absolutely horrified, and I'd also probably move.
    I went to a school that was 70% Muslim, I've lived on the Aldgate/Whitechapel/Brick Lane boundary, and I've worked with Muslims.

    Now, most of the Muslims I am very close to are the ones that were kicked out of Persia when the Ayatollah came (which tells you they're decadent and Western), but as far as I can they're normal human beings, who care about pretty much the same things non-Muslims do.
    Of course. I just don't want to live in a Muslim neighborhood, just as, I am sure, lots of Muslims WOULD prefer to live in a Muslim neighborhood, and that's their choice

    This is just human nature, not bigotry. People like to be surrounded by other people similar to them. It's why you get racial enclaves everywhere. It's why you're in a posh part of California, surrounded by lots of people like you
    At that level it is fine, we all have preferences. The problem is if it then drifts into expecting the world to stay static around them and their tastes. The world, and towns and cities within them are constantly evolving from generation to generation. Fighting against that is exhausting and ultimately doomed, change will win.
  • Foxy said:

    gealbhan said:

    kle4 said:

    Not something that had occurred to me

    @DavidHerdson

    4h
    Not many masks on show at the #LabourConference, in sharp contrast to in parliament.

    Rather suggests that the MPs' efforts are for show, and the stance gets dropped when there aren't Tories to contrast against.

    Or following the Prime Ministers suggestion to mask up at indoor gatherings?
    Conference is a gathering and they was nary a mask in sight.

    Parliament is their workplace not a gathering and suddenly it needs masks?

    Clearly the masks are just theatre.
    I understand that the Conference attendees had to prove double immunisation or lateral flow for entry:

    https://labour.org.uk/conference/faqs/#COVID

    Is this a requirement at Parliament?
    So double vaccinated = no masks?

    I can live with that. I'm double vaccinated and I'm assuming almost every MP is, but I haven't worn a mask in months yet every Wednesday lunchtime normally there's loads of masks on the Labour benches.

    And since the purpose of the mask is 'to protect others' supposedly then why are all these double vaccinated people engaging in pointless mask theatre in Parliament?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,768
    edited September 29

    This is @Big_G_NorthWales posting not @Scott_P

    YouGov

    Britons think Brexit is going badly, and it's an opinion more people have come to as the year has gone on

    Going well: 18% (-7)
    Going badly: 53% (+15)
    Neither: 21% (-4)

    Changes from Jun 21, 2021

    Who thinks Brexit has been going well this year?

    Con voters: 39% (-12)
    Leave voters: 35% (-10)
    British public: 18% (-7)
    Remain voters: 5% (-3)
    Lab voters: 3% (-2)

    Changes from Jun 21, 2021

    Opportunity for labour and lib dens to publicly and openly move nearer to the EU

    In that respect I think "tackling this government's incompetent handling of Brexit" is going to be a more successfully ambiguous slogan than "making Brexit work". Even a lot of leavers or on-the-fencers are fed up with hearing about Brexit's possible impact on the future, which is why the equivalently ambiguous finality of "Get Brexit Done" to the first option was better advised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited September 29
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    Hang on.

    Those people are British citizens.

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to open a mosque? Or a church? Or an Anne summers?

    Unless they are actually hurting other people, it's none of your business
    And as it happens, there's a long-empty site right next door. If anyone wants to set up a Patriotic English Bazaar, with a distinctly Christian Chapel on the second floor, best of luck to them.

    And the key thing is this. Debenhams closed. Would anyone really rather leave the site empty to avoid having foreigners buying and selling in it?
    As Rob Smithson says, British citizens are entitled to open churches, mosques, whatever, if the law allows it

    However, British citizens are also allowed to dislike drastic racial/cultural change, and they are allowed to dislike aspects of Islam, even Islam itself. Just as an atheist can despise Christianity and hate church bells

    Would I be happy if Camden went from 80% white to 80% Muslim in a decade? No, I'd be absolutely horrified, and I'd also probably move.
    You can dislike church bells and the call to prayer but if you move near a church or mosque, tough, what did you expect?
    But what if the churches or mosques come to you? And your neighborhood changes, drastically - in racial and cultural ways - in a short space of time?

    Very few people like this. It's why you get white flight.

    The desire to be with your own kind is universal, it is why incomers congregate together. It's why there are Chinatowns all over the world.

    Ignoring it or dismissing it as bigotry is silly. It does not mean you think less of others
    I like church bells, I would actively move near a church or cathedral for church bells on Sunday morning. When I lived near Hereford cathedral it was wonderful.

    The call to prayer is also not too bad on occasion, I quite liked it when I was in Palestine albeit probably every day would be too much.

    However I do take the point people tend to congregate and want to live with with those of a similar income, wealth, education level and culture as them
  • IshmaelZ said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
    Everyone has a smartphone these days, and there are Muslim Apps which all tell you which way Mecca is exactly.

    Those arguments are over now, well kinda, everyone generally used to pray at right angles towards Mecca, now it is more awkward.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 9,510
    As far as slogans go, “Make Brexit Work”, is about as good as you are gonna yet from Keir.

    He never misses an opportunity to bungle a rhetorical device.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    Hang on.

    Those people are British citizens.

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to open a mosque? Or a church? Or an Anne summers?

    Unless they are actually hurting other people, it's none of your business
    And as it happens, there's a long-empty site right next door. If anyone wants to set up a Patriotic English Bazaar, with a distinctly Christian Chapel on the second floor, best of luck to them.

    And the key thing is this. Debenhams closed. Would anyone really rather leave the site empty to avoid having foreigners buying and selling in it?
    As Rob Smithson says, British citizens are entitled to open churches, mosques, whatever, if the law allows it

    However, British citizens are also allowed to dislike drastic racial/cultural change, and they are allowed to dislike aspects of Islam, even Islam itself. Just as an atheist can despise Christianity and hate church bells

    Would I be happy if Camden went from 80% white to 80% Muslim in a decade? No, I'd be absolutely horrified, and I'd also probably move.
    I went to a school that was 70% Muslim, I've lived on the Aldgate/Whitechapel/Brick Lane boundary, and I've worked with Muslims.

    Now, most of the Muslims I am very close to are the ones that were kicked out of Persia when the Ayatollah came (which tells you they're decadent and Western), but as far as I can they're normal human beings, who care about pretty much the same things non-Muslims do.
    Of course. I just don't want to live in a Muslim neighborhood, just as, I am sure, lots of Muslims WOULD prefer to live in a Muslim neighborhood, and that's their choice

    This is just human nature, not bigotry. People like to be surrounded by other people similar to them. It's why you get racial enclaves everywhere. It's why you're in a posh part of California, surrounded by lots of people like you
    At that level it is fine, we all have preferences. The problem is if it then drifts into expecting the world to stay static around them and their tastes. The world, and towns and cities within them are constantly evolving from generation to generation. Fighting against that is exhausting and ultimately doomed, change will win.
    This is specious nonsense. There will be change in any city, but you can certainly influence - indeed, SHOULD influence - what kind of change happens. If you don't you have anarchy

    eg we have closed borders and immigration laws. Too many still get in illegally but we attempt to influence this, and we succeed

    With your attitude we should throw open the gates and let anyone in and London would soon have a population of 15m and be utterly unrecognisable, and much much worse as a place to live
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,570

    IshmaelZ said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
    Everyone has a smartphone these days, and there are Muslim Apps which all tell you which way Mecca is exactly.

    Those arguments are over now, well kinda, everyone generally used to pray at right angles towards Mecca, now it is more awkward.
    You soooo don't want to believe what the compass in a smart phone tells you.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,022
    Germany: Smarkets still have decent odds it seems to me (1.39) on Green/SPD/FDP.

    Any views? What's happening over there?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    Hang on.

    Those people are British citizens.

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to open a mosque? Or a church? Or an Anne summers?

    Unless they are actually hurting other people, it's none of your business
    And as it happens, there's a long-empty site right next door. If anyone wants to set up a Patriotic English Bazaar, with a distinctly Christian Chapel on the second floor, best of luck to them.

    And the key thing is this. Debenhams closed. Would anyone really rather leave the site empty to avoid having foreigners buying and selling in it?
    Ah, so you believe me about the Mosque now

    Stage One: "You're lying"
    Stage Two: "OK you're not, (Not actually said) But so what anyway?"

    Like clockwork
    A prayer room is hardly a mosque.

    Still, Enoch was right in your eyes, I suppose...
    The owner calls it a mosque!!!
    If there is demand, I have no problem with it. It is a free country.
    I merely pointed out it was happening, and that I didn't think the locals would be that enthusiastic.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,162
    edited September 29
    Leon said:

    Jesus, now reading the Everard murder details

    It's one of those cases where you think, ah, hang him. Why not? Why should we pay to keep him alive?

    I also find it very hard to believe this was a one-off. You don't go from normal sane person to intentional kidnapper, torturer, rapist, strangler and body-burner in one day. He must have done other horrible stuff interim. What?

    We know there were allegations against him for indecent exposure. You can't help but feel the murder might have been prevented if action had been taken earlier.

    On hanging, this is a murder where an agent of the state has abused the power that he has as the agent of the state in order to commit rape and murder. Not exactly a good advert for giving the state more power over us, particularly not the power of life and death.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,944
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    Hang on.

    Those people are British citizens.

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to open a mosque? Or a church? Or an Anne summers?

    Unless they are actually hurting other people, it's none of your business
    And as it happens, there's a long-empty site right next door. If anyone wants to set up a Patriotic English Bazaar, with a distinctly Christian Chapel on the second floor, best of luck to them.

    And the key thing is this. Debenhams closed. Would anyone really rather leave the site empty to avoid having foreigners buying and selling in it?
    Ah, so you believe me about the Mosque now

    Stage One: "You're lying"
    Stage Two: "OK you're not, (Not actually said) But so what anyway?"

    Like clockwork
    A prayer room is hardly a mosque.

    Still, Enoch was right in your eyes, I suppose...
    The owner calls it a mosque!!!
    If there is demand, I have no problem with it. It is a free country.
    I merely pointed out it was happening, and that I didn't think the locals would be that enthusiastic.
    The Muslim locals might be.
  • Fuel crisis? What fuel crisis?

    I've heard Prince Andrew has had no problems filling up his fifteen year old escort.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,022
    edited September 29

    Fuel crisis? What fuel crisis?

    I've heard Prince Andrew has had no problems filling up his fifteen year old escort.

    Good grief. Ok I "liked" it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,831

    Fuel crisis? What fuel crisis?

    I've heard Prince Andrew has had no problems filling up his fifteen year old escort.

    No sweat?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861

    Leon said:

    Jesus, now reading the Everard murder details

    It's one of those cases where you think, ah, hang him. Why not? Why should we pay to keep him alive?

    I also find it very hard to believe this was a one-off. You don't go from normal sane person to intentional kidnapper, torturer, rapist, strangler and body-burner in one day. He must have done other horrible stuff interim. What?

    We know there were allegations against him for indecent exposure. You can't help but feel the murder might have been prevented if action had been taken earlier.

    On hanging, this is a murder where an agent of the state has abused the power that he has as the agent of the state in order to commit rape and murder. Not exactly a good advert for giving the state more power over us, particularly not the power of life and death.
    That's a fair point
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    edited September 29

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    Hang on.

    Those people are British citizens.

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to open a mosque? Or a church? Or an Anne summers?

    Unless they are actually hurting other people, it's none of your business
    And as it happens, there's a long-empty site right next door. If anyone wants to set up a Patriotic English Bazaar, with a distinctly Christian Chapel on the second floor, best of luck to them.

    And the key thing is this. Debenhams closed. Would anyone really rather leave the site empty to avoid having foreigners buying and selling in it?
    Ah, so you believe me about the Mosque now

    Stage One: "You're lying"
    Stage Two: "OK you're not, (Not actually said) But so what anyway?"

    Like clockwork
    A prayer room is hardly a mosque.

    Still, Enoch was right in your eyes, I suppose...
    The owner calls it a mosque!!!
    If there is demand, I have no problem with it. It is a free country.
    I merely pointed out it was happening, and that I didn't think the locals would be that enthusiastic.
    The Muslim locals might be.
    I guess so!

    Where I have just moved to there has been a massive Jehovah's Witness Centre built -It's all happening

    https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/activities/construction/

    An Islamic company have also bought Hampton's Sports Centre in Great Baddow - it's gone down like a cup of cold sick

    https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/owner-breaks-silence-chelmsford-leisure-3784329

    Religion is the new Religion
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
    Everyone has a smartphone these days, and there are Muslim Apps which all tell you which way Mecca is exactly.

    Those arguments are over now, well kinda, everyone generally used to pray at right angles towards Mecca, now it is more awkward.
    You soooo don't want to believe what the compass in a smart phone tells you.
    There is that.
  • Fuel crisis? What fuel crisis?

    I've heard Prince Andrew has had no problems filling up his fifteen year old escort.

    No sweat?
    Indeed.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,631

    Fuel crisis? What fuel crisis?

    I've heard Prince Andrew has had no problems filling up his fifteen year old escort.

    He was certainly pleased about the £30 maximum.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,675
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/29/the-verdict-on-keir-starmers-labour-conference-speech

    Hmmm, I tend to agree with Steve Richards...

    It is one of the myths of British politics that a leader “taking on” a section of their party reaps electoral dividends. Labour leaders feel under considerable pressure to do so in a way that no Conservative leader does. Neil Kinnock’ s famous speech in 1985 when he challenged Militant tendency was an act of stunning political courage, but obscured a potent argument in the same address about the benevolent potential of the state, his counter to Thatcherism. The argument remained hidden. Labour was slaughtered in the election that followed. Unity or election victory is a false juxtaposition. An impression of unity is a precondition of election victory.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,570

    Fuel crisis? What fuel crisis?

    I've heard Prince Andrew has had no problems filling up his fifteen year old escort.

    @rcs1000 might want a word about that. On the plus side, what bigger treat than seeing lawyers of farrer & Co's calibre doing what they do best, free at the point of supply?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
    Everyone has a smartphone these days, and there are Muslim Apps which all tell you which way Mecca is exactly.

    Those arguments are over now, well kinda, everyone generally used to pray at right angles towards Mecca, now it is more awkward.
    You soooo don't want to believe what the compass in a smart phone tells you.
    I used to do country walks around London using the Time Out guides, which were really specific - turn left at 175 degrees North and proceed 300 metres then turn 30 degrees SE

    The compass in my smartphone was absolutely accurate?

    In a tiny irony, smartphones have further improved so much you don't require the guide books any more. The latest app for Ordnance Survey is a wonder, you can add multiple layers, go super detailed, see every tiny footpath, make your own route - no more need for compasses
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Fuel crisis? What fuel crisis?

    I've heard Prince Andrew has had no problems filling up his fifteen year old escort.

    @rcs1000 might want a word about that. On the plus side, what bigger treat than seeing lawyers of farrer & Co's calibre doing what they do best, free at the point of supply?
    What? I'm talking about this.


  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503

    Fuel crisis? What fuel crisis?

    I've heard Prince Andrew has had no problems filling up his fifteen year old escort.

    The Ford Escort was last produced in 2000.

    Just sayin'.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,768
    edited September 29
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/29/the-verdict-on-keir-starmers-labour-conference-speech

    Hmmm, I tend to agree with Steve Richards...

    It is one of the myths of British politics that a leader “taking on” a section of their party reaps electoral dividends. Labour leaders feel under considerable pressure to do so in a way that no Conservative leader does. Neil Kinnock’ s famous speech in 1985 when he challenged Militant tendency was an act of stunning political courage, but obscured a potent argument in the same address about the benevolent potential of the state, his counter to Thatcherism. The argument remained hidden. Labour was slaughtered in the election that followed. Unity or election victory is a false juxtaposition. An impression of unity is a precondition of election victory.

    Yes, I have mentioned this a few times on here. He has to be very careful with advice over-weighted by the historical and now fairly distant experience of Mandelsonism, in this respect.

    The Daily Mail's take today, for instance, hasn't been that helpful for Starmer as yet. Rather than being about his bravery in "taking on the left", the headline has been about "faces of hatred", the paper's view of the disruptors in the hall ; who might have been less visible had last week been handled with less over-reach.

    Still, overall I think he advanced today, spoke well, and it was progress.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Fuel crisis? What fuel crisis?

    I've heard Prince Andrew has had no problems filling up his fifteen year old escort.

    The Ford Escort was last produced in 2000.

    Just sayin'.
    Oh my mistake.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,831
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
    Everyone has a smartphone these days, and there are Muslim Apps which all tell you which way Mecca is exactly.

    Those arguments are over now, well kinda, everyone generally used to pray at right angles towards Mecca, now it is more awkward.
    You soooo don't want to believe what the compass in a smart phone tells you.
    Just checked my iPhone... Yep, still accurate to within a few degress a far as I can see looking at the major landmarks round here. How accurate does it need to be?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    Foxy said:

    gealbhan said:

    kle4 said:

    Not something that had occurred to me

    @DavidHerdson

    4h
    Not many masks on show at the #LabourConference, in sharp contrast to in parliament.

    Rather suggests that the MPs' efforts are for show, and the stance gets dropped when there aren't Tories to contrast against.

    Or following the Prime Ministers suggestion to mask up at indoor gatherings?
    Conference is a gathering and they was nary a mask in sight.

    Parliament is their workplace not a gathering and suddenly it needs masks?

    Clearly the masks are just theatre.
    I understand that the Conference attendees had to prove double immunisation or lateral flow for entry:

    https://labour.org.uk/conference/faqs/#COVID

    Is this a requirement at Parliament?
    So double vaccinated = no masks?

    I can live with that. I'm double vaccinated and I'm assuming almost every MP is, but I haven't worn a mask in months yet every Wednesday lunchtime normally there's loads of masks on the Labour benches.

    And since the purpose of the mask is 'to protect others' supposedly then why are all these double vaccinated people engaging in pointless mask theatre in Parliament?
    There are thousands of none MPs working on the Westminster Estate. Are they all double vaxxed?

    Incidentally, where do you source your claim that almost all MPs are?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,681
    "Their leader then was electoral poison and the Tories were able to use the threat of a Corbyn victory as a great turnout driver for CON supporters and a dampener on those thinking of tactically voting Labour"

    I think Mike's assumption here is wrong. It wasn't Corbyn that was electoral poison: if that was correct, then Labour would not have done so well in 2017, regardless of May's slip-ups, especially given that election was held after two major terrorist attacks. What stuffed Corbyn in 2019 was his commitment to a second Brexit referendum after he allowed himself to be persuaded by SKS.

    There, in a nutshell, is why Mike's thesis is correct even though it is coming from the wrong angle. That Brexit pledge essentially said to many Brexit Labour voters "we know better than you and we will ignore your views". And the voters told Labour to bugger off. Once people have made this mindset change, it is almost impossible to get them back, at least anytime soon.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,570

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
    Everyone has a smartphone these days, and there are Muslim Apps which all tell you which way Mecca is exactly.

    Those arguments are over now, well kinda, everyone generally used to pray at right angles towards Mecca, now it is more awkward.
    You soooo don't want to believe what the compass in a smart phone tells you.
    Just checked my iPhone... Yep, still accurate to within a few degress a far as I can see looking at the major landmarks round here. How accurate does it need to be?
    Better than a few degrees

    My gripe with phones is every time I open an app which uses the compass I get a message saying your calibration is shit, you need to wave your phone in figures of 8 for half an hour. If it doesn't trust itself...
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 569
    As a Remainer I see no problem with “ Make Brexit Work”.

    Clearly we’re not going to be re-joining anytime soon so we’re lumbered with it ! As for re-joining I’d say no for many years as the EU wouldn’t want us and this decision can only come about in the future if there was an overwhelming majority that wanted to do so .

    We’ve seen what happens with narrow wins !
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    MrEd said:

    "Their leader then was electoral poison and the Tories were able to use the threat of a Corbyn victory as a great turnout driver for CON supporters and a dampener on those thinking of tactically voting Labour"

    I think Mike's assumption here is wrong. It wasn't Corbyn that was electoral poison: if that was correct, then Labour would not have done so well in 2017, regardless of May's slip-ups, especially given that election was held after two major terrorist attacks. What stuffed Corbyn in 2019 was his commitment to a second Brexit referendum after he allowed himself to be persuaded by SKS.

    There, in a nutshell, is why Mike's thesis is correct even though it is coming from the wrong angle. That Brexit pledge essentially said to many Brexit Labour voters "we know better than you and we will ignore your views". And the voters told Labour to bugger off. Once people have made this mindset change, it is almost impossible to get them back, at least anytime soon.

    I have to agree - Corbyn had a ceiling of 40%, as shown in 2017. He then changed his stance on Brexit from acceptance to refight, and lost 8%, but still did better than Brown or Miliband managed.

    And the Lib Dem share went up

    If it was just Corbyn, why have Labour gt such bad voteshare in the three English By Elections since he not only ceased being Leader, but was thrown out as an MP?

    Their worst ever vote shares in all three constituencies
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    gealbhan said:

    kle4 said:

    Not something that had occurred to me

    @DavidHerdson

    4h
    Not many masks on show at the #LabourConference, in sharp contrast to in parliament.

    Rather suggests that the MPs' efforts are for show, and the stance gets dropped when there aren't Tories to contrast against.

    Or following the Prime Ministers suggestion to mask up at indoor gatherings?
    Conference is a gathering and they was nary a mask in sight.

    Parliament is their workplace not a gathering and suddenly it needs masks?

    Clearly the masks are just theatre.
    I understand that the Conference attendees had to prove double immunisation or lateral flow for entry:

    https://labour.org.uk/conference/faqs/#COVID

    Is this a requirement at Parliament?
    So double vaccinated = no masks?

    I can live with that. I'm double vaccinated and I'm assuming almost every MP is, but I haven't worn a mask in months yet every Wednesday lunchtime normally there's loads of masks on the Labour benches.

    And since the purpose of the mask is 'to protect others' supposedly then why are all these double vaccinated people engaging in pointless mask theatre in Parliament?
    There are thousands of none MPs working on the Westminster Estate. Are they all double vaxxed?

    Incidentally, where do you source your claim that almost all MPs are?
    I said I'm assuming so. Considering that over 90% of the general adult public is, then it'd be remarkable if they weren't. Are you suggesting they're considerably less responsible than the general public?

    Yes in Parliament a double-vaxxed MP could possibly infect someone not vaxxed who is there, but just as plausibly anyone double-vaxxed in Conference could just as possibly infect someone who in not vaxxed at Conference who was lateral flow negative when they arrived.

    Considering supposedly the purpose of the mask is 'to protect others' as I keep getting told then why does the others being lateral flow negative before you 'put them at risk' lower their risk? People pretty much have to be negative before you infect them, that's how they change from negative to positive.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    edited September 29
    MrEd said:

    "Their leader then was electoral poison and the Tories were able to use the threat of a Corbyn victory as a great turnout driver for CON supporters and a dampener on those thinking of tactically voting Labour"

    I think Mike's assumption here is wrong. It wasn't Corbyn that was electoral poison: if that was correct, then Labour would not have done so well in 2017, regardless of May's slip-ups, especially given that election was held after two major terrorist attacks. What stuffed Corbyn in 2019 was his commitment to a second Brexit referendum after he allowed himself to be persuaded by SKS.

    There, in a nutshell, is why Mike's thesis is correct even though it is coming from the wrong angle. That Brexit pledge essentially said to many Brexit Labour voters "we know better than you and we will ignore your views". And the voters told Labour to bugger off. Once people have made this mindset change, it is almost impossible to get them back, at least anytime soon.

    Both, I think. Corbyn was electoral poison in 2019 not 2017 because of (a reported) Tory hidden, targeted campaign saying eg Corbyn supported IRA bombings in their region. I'm sure they'll be looking at Starmer's time in the CPS for next time.

    That is not to say your Brexit denial point is not also valid.
  • NEW THREAD

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,465
    nico679 said:

    As a Remainer I see no problem with “ Make Brexit Work”.

    The way to make it work is abolish the border in the Irish Sea.

    Make it easier for workers to move between countries to sort out shortages.

    Remove trade barriers between the UK and the EU.

    Cut red tape by standardising.

    And wave some flags.

    That is a Brexit even I could get behind...
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,768
    edited September 29
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
    Everyone has a smartphone these days, and there are Muslim Apps which all tell you which way Mecca is exactly.

    Those arguments are over now, well kinda, everyone generally used to pray at right angles towards Mecca, now it is more awkward.
    You soooo don't want to believe what the compass in a smart phone tells you.
    I used to do country walks around London using the Time Out guides, which were really specific - turn left at 175 degrees North and proceed 300 metres then turn 30 degrees SE

    The compass in my smartphone was absolutely accurate?

    In a tiny irony, smartphones have further improved so much you don't require the guide books any more. The latest app for Ordnance Survey is a wonder, you can add multiple layers, go super detailed, see every tiny footpath, make your own route - no more need for compasses
    Time Out once wrote a brilliantly encyclopaedic and obscure book of film reviews, which was full of all sorts of interesting social details about the clienteles who liked to watch the films in different parts of London - Soho, Swiss Cottage, etc. I can't remember what it was called, but will try and look up.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,158

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
    Everyone has a smartphone these days, and there are Muslim Apps which all tell you which way Mecca is exactly.

    Those arguments are over now, well kinda, everyone generally used to pray at right angles towards Mecca, now it is more awkward.
    You soooo don't want to believe what the compass in a smart phone tells you.
    Just checked my iPhone... Yep, still accurate to within a few degress a far as I can see looking at the major landmarks round here. How accurate does it need to be?
    If you're using it for life-critical purposes, well within a degree.

    If you're on the hills in fog, couple of degrees could mean the difference between path and 'wheee!'.

    I always take an old-fashioned compass with me. I've bought the little 'un one as well, which we play with.

    BTW, phone compasses a wonder of technology. MEMS is amazing. But I wonder how they manage with Kelvin's Balls, given all the electromagnetism going on in a phone?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,737
    edited September 29
    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The biggest shop on Romford Market, Debenhams, is being turned into an Islamic Shopping Centre & Mosque

    Good news eh? @Stuartinromford

    No mention of a mosque here-
    https://www.time1075.net/172004-2-romford-debenhams-to-become-superstore/

    There's mention of a prayer room on the website https://akluplaza.co.uk/ but not much space for it in the floor plans.

    Otherwise, it sounds like a version of the Shopping Hall that happens to be run by some successful Asian shopkeepers. Best of luck to them.

    Better that than another empty shell like the adjacent Littlewoods/Index site. That's been abandoned for nearly 20 years.

    So new businesses that will attract people to Romford, unless they're allergic to Asians. Sounds like good news, eh?
    Mention of a Mosque here - from the owner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEhLL1mw5E

    It's a specifically Islamic Shopping Hall, not just a Shopping Hall that happens to be run by successful Asian shopkeepers. I don't think it will go down that well, but who cares about what people who grew up in Romford think? We've mostly all left anyway
    Hang on.

    Those people are British citizens.

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to open a mosque? Or a church? Or an Anne summers?

    Unless they are actually hurting other people, it's none of your business
    And as it happens, there's a long-empty site right next door. If anyone wants to set up a Patriotic English Bazaar, with a distinctly Christian Chapel on the second floor, best of luck to them.

    And the key thing is this. Debenhams closed. Would anyone really rather leave the site empty to avoid having foreigners buying and selling in it?
    Ah, so you believe me about the Mosque now

    Stage One: "You're lying"
    Stage Two: "OK you're not, (Not actually said) But so what anyway?"

    Like clockwork
    I question whether an "Islamic Shopping Hall" will get past the Equality Act - unless it is a charity with a good reason for discrimation.

    if it is to be a Mosque on one floor, say, that will be in the Plannign Docs.

    To me it looks more like a wedding venue, though I guess it could be rented out on Fridays.

    But I don't speak the language.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319

    Important piece from Friedman on the challenge facing the Democrats if they are to save the US democracy from Trump's cult.


    “The absence of pragmatism among Democrats is as troubling as the absence of principle among Republicans.”

    "...there is no question that America’s 245-year experiment in democracy is in real peril."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/opinion/liz-cheney-democrats-democracy.html

    The only serious hope the Democrats have of holding off Trump is getting as large-sized a stimulus bill, with as quick tanglible benefits as possible, though now, as several other commenters have mentioned. In that respect the liberal democrats goals are actually far more immediately pragmatic than self-styled moderate figures such as Manchin, with his ties to very large corporate donations.

    Only a radical and visible, and fast, material improvement in many people' s lives in the US at the moment may stave off the much more dangerous form of Trump radicalism from returning, and potentially even threatening democracy. That's the fairly accurate calculus, in my view.
    This. Top post. :+1:

    Manchin is a pain at moment.
    Its Sinema that is the real problem. Manchin can be bargained with. Sinema, who was elected on a platform of allowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices, has been captured by her donors and is now arguing against exactly that.

    She seems to be out solely for herself. Manchin at least has weird self-destructive principles that can be worked with.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,737
    edited September 29
    French kicking off about fish, again...

    Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.

    French Ministerial statement:

    We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. "

    EU Statement:

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 10,924

    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Not something that had occurred to me

    @DavidHerdson

    4h
    Not many masks on show at the #LabourConference, in sharp contrast to in parliament.

    Rather suggests that the MPs' efforts are for show, and the stance gets dropped when there aren't Tories to contrast against.

    Interesting observation.
    No masks at conference? Kinda interesting but if I were a Labour spin doctor I'd suggest the venue had a high ceiling and was properly ventilated, as per guidelines. Who knows, it might even be true.
    Is anyone wearing a mask anywhere anymore bar public transport? Maybe the masklessness is a London thing, but bar the Tube and buses it’s almost like the pandemic never happened down here.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 10,924
    edited September 29

    IshmaelZ said:

    From what I can glean.

    A prayer room is technically a mosque.

    But not the kind of mosques you would assume.

    So long as it has a mihrab and people take off their shoes when entering then your living room becomes a mosque.

    Easier said than done, mihrab wise. You'd be amazed how many people think qibla is just vaguely a matter of facing east, no conception of the precision required.
    Everyone has a smartphone these days, and there are Muslim Apps which all tell you which way Mecca is exactly.

    Those arguments are over now, well kinda, everyone generally used to pray at right angles towards Mecca, now it is more awkward.
    ….
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