Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Watermelons or Green perennials: Are the Greens going anywhere? – politicalbetting.com

1235

Comments

  • algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

    To me.. she comes across as thick as two short planks..how she got where she us is a matter for comjecture.
    The same could be said about you.
    That seems a little harsh. My own view of Angela Rayner is that she doesn't seem PM material, at all! She is clearly not thick, but she is definitely lightweight. That said, I also think that of Johnson and he is there! On a trivial matter, can someone also tell Rayner that there is no "h" on the front of "aitch". They are not "haitch G V drivers"
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say EV manufacturers must be getting a lot of clicks today.

    That's a good thing - unintended but beneficial.

    Chuckled when I went out (in my EV) in SW London to see gridlock as every Tom, Dick and Harry was queuing up for fuel.
    Yes but: 1) electric is going up in price and 2) you would have paid twice the price for your car in the first place than a petrol would have cost you.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    edited September 2021
    I vaguely recall a recent discussion on the lack of synonyms for smug. Could I suggest priti?

    What a priti arsehole.
    Stop being so fcuking priti.
    Not so priti now, are you?
    etc

    https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1441484429386555393?s=20
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Ive been in the office every day this week despite very few people choosing to, mainly because the IT equipment is better so I’m more productive.

    That’s interesting. In my place the consensus is the opposite. People’s home IT setup is superior to the office and the connection speed for video calls better too.
    The guy who sits opposite me talks so damn loudly that every time I’m on a Zoom call clients complain about the background noise.
    Get a directional microphone that picks up you and not the person opposite. I can't help with the loud person behind you.
    Get a decent call centre type headset. Both mike and audio are far better.

    nico679 said:

    So the government wants to relax rules for EU drivers to save Bozos skin after he led a campaign which told those same drivers to get lost and go back home.

    And then the visas are time limited and the message will then be get lost now .

    nico679 said:

    So the government wants to relax rules for EU drivers to save Bozos skin after he led a campaign which told those same drivers to get lost and go back home.

    And then the visas are time limited and the message will then be get lost now .

    Good morning

    HMG new visa quota scheme was brought in post Brexit and applies worldwide, not just to the EU

    It applies to specific need and has a minimum salary of £25,600

    This is the brexit dividend which would not have been permissible under the EU freedom of movement and is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs
    As predicted the cheerleaders who supported the government not allowing foreign lorry drivers in, now support the allowing the foreign lorry drivers in.

    It is almost as if the policies don't matter, just the colour of the rosette.
    This has been the conservative policy throughout and is now being applied to the need

    I see is as complete vindication for Brexit and it is working as designed
    I must congratulate you. You’ve got the Comical Ali tribute off to a tee!
    I have to say, with the greatest of respect, those trying to dismiss this are those who have not accepted brexit and think this is a way to undermine it, with the vain hope we will rejoin
    Just so we're clear...

    Is there any degree of Brexit fallout which would make it legitimate to say "hey guys, this may be something we need to reverse"?

    Is there any degree of swing in public opinion where it would be legitimate for a UK government to reverse Brexit?

    I don't think we're anywhere near either of those conditions right now, and those on the fringes who are arguing for a quick rejoin are probably doing more harm than good to their cause. And there's plenty of prickles that the UK could remove.

    But to say "this policy is irreversible, permanent for all time" flies in the face of history, doesn't it? Governments of all colours have thought they had changed things forever and proved wrong.

    It also takes away agency and sovereignty from future generations, which is a pretty selfish thing for this generation of voters to be doing.

    If the policy of the Johnson government succeeds, it will deservedly stick. If it fails, it equally deservedly won't. That's democracy, and trying to shut down inconvenient voices isn't.
    Indeed, this is a government of U turns, so what is implausible about the biggest U turn of all?

    In the last months we have decided that the NI protocol is unworkable, that we cannot run inbound customs at the Channel, and now that we need to import European workers.

    I don't think Rejoin is on the agenda yet for a major party (celtic nationalists apart) but I can see that it won't just be the LDs wanting much closer alignment to the Single Market.
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Ive been in the office every day this week despite very few people choosing to, mainly because the IT equipment is better so I’m more productive.

    That’s interesting. In my place the consensus is the opposite. People’s home IT setup is superior to the office and the connection speed for video calls better too.
    The guy who sits opposite me talks so damn loudly that every time I’m on a Zoom call clients complain about the background noise.
    Get a directional microphone that picks up you and not the person opposite. I can't help with the loud person behind you.
    Get a decent call centre type headset. Both mike and audio are far better.

    nico679 said:

    So the government wants to relax rules for EU drivers to save Bozos skin after he led a campaign which told those same drivers to get lost and go back home.

    And then the visas are time limited and the message will then be get lost now .

    nico679 said:

    So the government wants to relax rules for EU drivers to save Bozos skin after he led a campaign which told those same drivers to get lost and go back home.

    And then the visas are time limited and the message will then be get lost now .

    Good morning

    HMG new visa quota scheme was brought in post Brexit and applies worldwide, not just to the EU

    It applies to specific need and has a minimum salary of £25,600

    This is the brexit dividend which would not have been permissible under the EU freedom of movement and is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs
    As predicted the cheerleaders who supported the government not allowing foreign lorry drivers in, now support the allowing the foreign lorry drivers in.

    It is almost as if the policies don't matter, just the colour of the rosette.
    This has been the conservative policy throughout and is now being applied to the need

    I see is as complete vindication for Brexit and it is working as designed
    I must congratulate you. You’ve got the Comical Ali tribute off to a tee!
    I have to say, with the greatest of respect, those trying to dismiss this are those who have not accepted brexit and think this is a way to undermine it, with the vain hope we will rejoin
    Just so we're clear...

    Is there any degree of Brexit fallout which would make it legitimate to say "hey guys, this may be something we need to reverse"?

    Is there any degree of swing in public opinion where it would be legitimate for a UK government to reverse Brexit?

    I don't think we're anywhere near either of those conditions right now, and those on the fringes who are arguing for a quick rejoin are probably doing more harm than good to their cause. And there's plenty of prickles that the UK could remove.

    But to say "this policy is irreversible, permanent for all time" flies in the face of history, doesn't it? Governments of all colours have thought they had changed things forever and proved wrong.

    It also takes away agency and sovereignty from future generations, which is a pretty selfish thing for this generation of voters to be doing.

    If the policy of the Johnson government succeeds, it will deservedly stick. If it fails, it equally deservedly won't. That's democracy, and trying to shut down inconvenient voices isn't.
    Indeed, this is a government of U turns, so what is implausible about the biggest U turn of all?

    In the last months we have decided that the NI protocol is unworkable, that we cannot run inbound customs at the Channel, and now that we need to import European workers.

    I don't think Rejoin is on the agenda yet for a major party (celtic nationalists apart) but I can see that it won't just be the LDs wanting much closer alignment to the Single Market.
    Missing the point. With Brexit U turns are a matter for the UK government. Within the EU U turns on FOM can't be done. The point is who has the power to decide.

    One man's "u-turn" is another man's "flexibility to respond to a situation - a flexibility not available whilst in the EU".
    All the other EU countries seemed to manage flexibility no problem, only dumb UK politicians that made a hash of it.
  • Just look at the shite interviews that she's done on YouTube... you have to be thick to fail so spectacularly.

    Your insightful and thoughtful posts make a significant contribution to this site.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FF43 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the government wants to relax rules for EU drivers to save Bozos skin after he led a campaign which told those same drivers to get lost and go back home.

    And then the visas are time limited and the message will then be get lost now .

    It's not going to work. Why should EU drivers who are already in demand at home take up the bureaucratically burdensome, strictly time limited and clearly unwelcome offer from the UK government?
    Salaries will go up to the point it does.

    Permanently increasing supply of drivers takes time.

    To do with a short term gap you have to increase salaries. This will attract workers from (a) the un/under employed; (b) qualified new entrants from other sectors; or (c) abroad

    I assume there aren’t many (a) around except for recently retired. (b) potentially just shifts the problem to other sectors. (c) shifts the problem to other countries

    As a temporary measure (c) makes perfect sense (pace @IshmaelZ ). It’s only damaging if it becomes permanent because then you have wage suppression with no incentive to train new drivers
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128
    Heh.


  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say EV manufacturers must be getting a lot of clicks today.

    My Tesla already on order!
    Get yourself a Model S!
    I've gone for the 3 with duel motor for longer range. Still does 0-60 in 4secs, so should be fun
    Sword fencing or pistol duels Dumbo
  • nico679 said:

    The European press are having a field day with the UKs supply issues . A bad few weeks for the anti EU brigade in mainland Europe . All the pro EU side have to say is look at the clusterfxck in the UK , do you really want all this drama .

    Why would we be interested in the EU attitude
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,903
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFDism crystalised.


    It was Lloyd George, a Liberal PM, who used the Black and Tans to deal with the IRA.
    Though, to be fair, he was a prisoner of the Tories by that time.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    edited September 2021
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Is there anything more pathetic than panic buyers?

    Good morning PB

    Indeed there is - those who moan about panic buyers while themselves just popping out to top up the tank. Just in case, you know?
    Well I put some petrol in on Wednesday morning as my petrol warning light was on and would have done so anyway (at that time the garage was deserted)

    £30 which shall keep me going for around 3-4 weeks as I rarely drive to be honest...
    My wife's car has just had its MOT and she did 165 miles all year

    Mind you, the hairdresser is only half a mile away and the doctor and dentist 2 miles

    Hope you and Mrs G are well! :D
    Good morning Gin or should I say afternoon given we are past midday.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.

    Funny. In my work the opposite was true (accountant).
    The more senior managers are in most days (three kept coming in back in January and February despite being told several times they really shouldn’t) whilst the ‘kids’ are never seen! It took an email from the Managing Director earlier this month to get them to creep back in.

    I’ve three work colleagues in their twenties I’ve not seen in person since February 2020, and one lady who started in April I’ve never met.
    Whilst senior managers are more likely to have space for a home office than a younger person, if you're not got much experience of office working you're perhaps more inclined not to want to bother with the commute unless required to.
    Perhaps. I don't quite understand it.

    Of the three senior managers who are in everyday, I suspect at least one is getting away from the wife; no doubt using work as an excuse to get out the house. They're also not great with technology. When they WERE at home, it was very much the case of "turn your mic on.... turn on your mic... the button in the bottom left... no, not screen share.... the mic bu.... oh I give up". Two of the three still send paper letters (FFS?!) chasing records to be sent to them, on paper.

    As to the kids, no idea. The kids are more likely to be out and about anyway (at clients doing accounts), but at least one young lady who I finally met on Monday just gone (she started in January) I suspect just likes staying at home with mum and dad.
    At my work the senior managers now coming in, middle managers tending not to do so and my impression is that some of them are working long hours at home but not delegating work to the juniors/interns where there is a split between those who are happy to do a few hours a day and then sit at their parents getting paid to watch Netflix and play video games, whist others are coming into the office and generally being pro-active.
    I'm not in the corporate world, but surely it depends on whether the worker is in charge of producing a particular result by landing a project or working a contractual number of hours? Seems obvious to me that the WFH may be an option for the former but not the latter.
  • kinabalu said:

    Morning all, will comment on the header in a minute but first to return to a betting play I’ve flagged up before, re Spoty. Em (who will win) is a stupidly short 1.08 and this is throwing up value on others, esp Daley (17) and Peaty (70). I’ve done both but the one I most recommend is the latter and here’s why:

    I’ve just got back from boxing and I overheard some chat down there about Strictly, which starts tonight. “Oh who’s in it?” said somebody. “Adam Peaty!” replied somebody else, quite animated. “Really? Wow,” said a third person without a hint of sarcasm. So, there’s appetite. And don’t forget what a juggernaut Strictly is. It’s arguably as big as the Olympics (here, I mean, not so much globally), it builds to a crescendo at the exact time of the Spoty vote and the people into it overlap strongly with those voting for Spoty and those betting on Spoty.

    But haven’t I said Raducanu will win? Yes, which is why I’m viewing Peaty as a TRADING BET. The envisaged scenario is that in week 3 or 4, say, or any week tbh, the actual week doesn’t matter, he will nail a crowd pleasing paso, or rumba or, whatever, a dance anyway, and there’ll be a reaction in the markets. He’ll become fav for Strictly itself and come shooting in to something like 12s for Spoty. At which point I overlay back and lock in a nice profit.

    The biggest risk to the strategy, in fact the only thing I was truly concerned about, was the BBC would try something “interesting” and post-modern (you know what they’re like) eg pairing Peaty with Anton Du Beke, some woke shit like that, but no, Du Beke is a judge this year and Adam has got Katya Jones, a nice traditional woman dancer who word has it really knows her onions and likes Adam a lot. Word also has it that Peaty can move.

    Your boxing pals did not mention Anthony Joshua who fights tonight?
  • malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say EV manufacturers must be getting a lot of clicks today.

    My Tesla already on order!
    Get yourself a Model S!
    I've gone for the 3 with duel motor for longer range. Still does 0-60 in 4secs, so should be fun
    Sword fencing or pistol duels Dumbo
    OOOhh, I made a spelling mistake, my apology to you, oh super-intellect! I suspect you looked that one up on Google perhaps?

    Try googling this one fanboy: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-salmond-was-a-bully-and-a-sex-pest-his-own-qc-says-on-train-jfgbkr857
  • kinabalu said:

    Morning all, will comment on the header in a minute but first to return to a betting play I’ve flagged up before, re Spoty. Em (who will win) is a stupidly short 1.08 and this is throwing up value on others, esp Daley (17) and Peaty (70). I’ve done both but the one I most recommend is the latter and here’s why:

    I’ve just got back from boxing and I overheard some chat down there about Strictly, which starts tonight. “Oh who’s in it?” said somebody. “Adam Peaty!” replied somebody else, quite animated. “Really? Wow,” said a third person without a hint of sarcasm. So, there’s appetite. And don’t forget what a juggernaut Strictly is. It’s arguably as big as the Olympics (here, I mean, not so much globally), it builds to a crescendo at the exact time of the Spoty vote and the people into it overlap strongly with those voting for Spoty and those betting on Spoty.

    But haven’t I said Raducanu will win? Yes, which is why I’m viewing Peaty as a TRADING BET. The envisaged scenario is that in week 3 or 4, say, or any week tbh, the actual week doesn’t matter, he will nail a crowd pleasing paso, or rumba or, whatever, a dance anyway, and there’ll be a reaction in the markets. He’ll become fav for Strictly itself and come shooting in to something like 12s for Spoty. At which point I overlay back and lock in a nice profit.

    The biggest risk to the strategy, in fact the only thing I was truly concerned about, was the BBC would try something “interesting” and post-modern (you know what they’re like) eg pairing Peaty with Anton Du Beke, some woke shit like that, but no, Du Beke is a judge this year and Adam has got Katya Jones, a nice traditional woman dancer who word has it really knows her onions and likes Adam a lot. Word also has it that Peaty can move.

    Your boxing pals did not mention Anthony Joshua who fights tonight?
    "Boxing glorifies violence against the person" - discuss.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_xP said:

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again

    I want there to be no shortages of food or fuel.

    It's disgraceful to want anything else.
    That is saying “I want things than benefit me at the cost of lower wages for others”

    Not very community spirited of you
  • Stocky said:

    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say EV manufacturers must be getting a lot of clicks today.

    That's a good thing - unintended but beneficial.

    Chuckled when I went out (in my EV) in SW London to see gridlock as every Tom, Dick and Harry was queuing up for fuel.
    Yes but: 1) electric is going up in price and 2) you would have paid twice the price for your car in the first place than a petrol would have cost you.
    It would need to go up a lot. On most tariffs you pay around 4 to 5p per mile for a Tesla. Most petrol or diesel cars of similar performance will be about 15 to 20p per mile
  • Charles said:

    Stephen Bush
    @stephenkb
    ·
    17m
    Breakthrough at Tulo: MP nominations threshold for leadership election and challenge raised, registered supporters ditched, deselection made harder. Electoral college: dead.

    Yes, Starmer will be happy with all of that. I'm not sure why his manoeuvres have attracted such opprobrium on here. He was always unlikely to get changes to the electoral college through Conference, so it isn't coming to Conference. We try to do a bit of democratic decision making in Labour. It would have been much worse to proceed with this, as it would dominate Conference and he'd probably have lost. The TUs have apparently said no, so he's pulled it. It's really not some great defeat. But he's had a very significant victory in the changes outlined above. He's strengthened his grip on the party.
    You say it’s democratic. And then celebrate the leader “strengthening his grip” by changing the rules… seems a bit of a philosophical disconnect
    Not at all. You don't understand, but I should have been clearer. The rule changes Starmer wants will have to be democratically approved by Conference; they could, of course, be rejected. But in my post I assumed that he will win the votes to bring about his desired changes and hence strengthen his grip.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Ive been in the office every day this week despite very few people choosing to, mainly because the IT equipment is better so I’m more productive.

    That’s interesting. In my place the consensus is the opposite. People’s home IT setup is superior to the office and the connection speed for video calls better too.
    The guy who sits opposite me talks so damn loudly that every time I’m on a Zoom call clients complain about the background noise.
    Get a directional microphone that picks up you and not the person opposite. I can't help with the loud person behind you.
    IT get grumpy about that…
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say EV manufacturers must be getting a lot of clicks today.

    My Tesla already on order!
    Get yourself a Model S!
    I've gone for the 3 with duel motor for longer range. Still does 0-60 in 4secs, so should be fun
    Sword fencing or pistol duels Dumbo
    OOOhh, I made a spelling mistake, my apology to you, oh super-intellect! I suspect you looked that one up on Google perhaps?

    Jog on saddo loser, pretend your JSA will get you a Tesla, perhaps a Corgi one if lucky. F off forever and then F off again.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    nico679 said:

    So the government wants to relax rules for EU drivers to save Bozos skin after he led a campaign which told those same drivers to get lost and go back home.

    And then the visas are time limited and the message will then be get lost now .

    nico679 said:

    So the government wants to relax rules for EU drivers to save Bozos skin after he led a campaign which told those same drivers to get lost and go back home.

    And then the visas are time limited and the message will then be get lost now .

    Good morning

    HMG new visa quota scheme was brought in post Brexit and applies worldwide, not just to the EU

    It applies to specific need and has a minimum salary of £25,600

    This is the brexit dividend which would not have been permissible under the EU freedom of movement and is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs
    As predicted the cheerleaders who supported the government not allowing foreign lorry drivers in, now support the allowing the foreign lorry drivers in.

    It is almost as if the policies don't matter, just the colour of the rosette.
    This has been the conservative policy throughout and is now being applied to the need

    I see is as complete vindication for Brexit and it is working as designed
    I must congratulate you. You’ve got the Comical Ali tribute off to a tee!
    I have to say, with the greatest of respect, those trying to dismiss this are those who have not accepted brexit and think this is a way to undermine it, with the vain hope we will rejoin
    Just so we're clear...

    Is there any degree of Brexit fallout which would make it legitimate to say "hey guys, this may be something we need to reverse"?

    Is there any degree of swing in public opinion where it would be legitimate for a UK government to reverse Brexit?

    I don't think we're anywhere near either of those conditions right now, and those on the fringes who are arguing for a quick rejoin are probably doing more harm than good to their cause. And there's plenty of prickles that the UK could remove.

    But to say "this policy is irreversible, permanent for all time" flies in the face of history, doesn't it? Governments of all colours have thought they had changed things forever and proved wrong.

    It also takes away agency and sovereignty from future generations, which is a pretty selfish thing for this generation of voters to be doing.

    If the policy of the Johnson government succeeds, it will deservedly stick. If it fails, it equally deservedly won't. That's democracy, and trying to shut down inconvenient voices isn't.
    All that it takes to rejoin is a popular vote in favour. It’s an entirely legitimate position to take.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,867
    edited September 2021

    kle4 said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.

    Funny. In my work the opposite was true (accountant).
    The more senior managers are in most days (three kept coming in back in January and February despite being told several times they really shouldn’t) whilst the ‘kids’ are never seen! It took an email from the Managing Director earlier this month to get them to creep back in.

    I’ve three work colleagues in their twenties I’ve not seen in person since February 2020, and one lady who started in April I’ve never met.
    Whilst senior managers are more likely to have space for a home office than a younger person, if you're not got much experience of office working you're perhaps more inclined not to want to bother with the commute unless required to.
    Perhaps. I don't quite understand it.

    Of the three senior managers who are in everyday, I suspect at least one is getting away from the wife; no doubt using work as an excuse to get out the house. They're also not great with technology. When they WERE at home, it was very much the case of "turn your mic on.... turn on your mic... the button in the bottom left... no, not screen share.... the mic bu.... oh I give up". Two of the three still send paper letters (FFS?!) chasing records to be sent to them, on paper.

    As to the kids, no idea. The kids are more likely to be out and about anyway (at clients doing accounts), but at least one young lady who I finally met on Monday just gone (she started in January) I suspect just likes staying at home with mum and dad.
    My nephew's job is based in London. For the past year he hasn't been paying rent for a place in London and is WFH back at his parents' place in Yorkshire. Still earning London wages, with minimal outgoings. He's not exactly desperate to return to the office.
    I had colleagues in the same boat luxury yacht WFH for a decade before Covid. Work remotely from low cost-of-living places; get paid London wages; no commuting; no rent. Great for them; great for your nephew; but there are already signs employers are starting to wise up so in the long term, maybe not so good.
  • From the Sullivan article:

    "Last year was a dress rehearsal. Sixteen states have now shifted electoral powers away from the governor and secretaries of state to legislatures, run by Trump loyalists,"
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,986
    Charles said:

    That is saying “I want things than benefit me at the cost of lower wages for others”

    Not very community spirited of you

    Not at all

    I want things that benefit the whole community.

    Like being able to eat
  • algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

    To me.. she comes across as thick as two short planks..how she got where she us is a matter for comjecture.
    The same could be said about you.
    That seems a little harsh. My own view of Angela Rayner is that she doesn't seem PM material, at all! She is clearly not thick, but she is definitely lightweight. That said, I also think that of Johnson and he is there! On a trivial matter, can someone also tell Rayner that there is no "h" on the front of "aitch". They are not "haitch G V drivers"
    But she knows that there isn't an R in bath.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    The 2024 election is going to be absolute carnage. It's hard to say what will be worse: a Trump loss or a Trump win. A clear Trump win probably preserves the republic for a while longer than a loss.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399

    kle4 said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.

    Funny. In my work the opposite was true (accountant).
    The more senior managers are in most days (three kept coming in back in January and February despite being told several times they really shouldn’t) whilst the ‘kids’ are never seen! It took an email from the Managing Director earlier this month to get them to creep back in.

    I’ve three work colleagues in their twenties I’ve not seen in person since February 2020, and one lady who started in April I’ve never met.
    Whilst senior managers are more likely to have space for a home office than a younger person, if you're not got much experience of office working you're perhaps more inclined not to want to bother with the commute unless required to.
    Perhaps. I don't quite understand it.

    Of the three senior managers who are in everyday, I suspect at least one is getting away from the wife; no doubt using work as an excuse to get out the house. They're also not great with technology. When they WERE at home, it was very much the case of "turn your mic on.... turn on your mic... the button in the bottom left... no, not screen share.... the mic bu.... oh I give up". Two of the three still send paper letters (FFS?!) chasing records to be sent to them, on paper.

    As to the kids, no idea. The kids are more likely to be out and about anyway (at clients doing accounts), but at least one young lady who I finally met on Monday just gone (she started in January) I suspect just likes staying at home with mum and dad.
    My nephew's job is based in London. For the past year he hasn't been paying rent for a place in London and is WFH back at his parents' place in Yorkshire. Still earning London wages, with minimal outgoings. He's not exactly desperate to return to the office.
    I had colleagues in the same boat luxury yacht WFH for a decade before Covid. Work remotely from low cost-of-living places; get paid London wages; no commuting; no rent. Great for them; great for your nephew; but there are already signs employers are starting to wise up so in the long term, maybe not so good.
    If London weighting were to disappear it would be a net economic benefit to the nation.
  • algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

    To me.. she comes across as thick as two short planks..how she got where she us is a matter for comjecture.
    The same could be said about you.
    That seems a little harsh. My own view of Angela Rayner is that she doesn't seem PM material, at all! She is clearly not thick, but she is definitely lightweight. That said, I also think that of Johnson and he is there! On a trivial matter, can someone also tell Rayner that there is no "h" on the front of "aitch". They are not "haitch G V drivers"
    Why don't you tell her yourself? That would give her the opportunity to tell you to fuck off.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    edited September 2021

    kinabalu said:

    Morning all, will comment on the header in a minute but first to return to a betting play I’ve flagged up before, re Spoty. Em (who will win) is a stupidly short 1.08 and this is throwing up value on others, esp Daley (17) and Peaty (70). I’ve done both but the one I most recommend is the latter and here’s why:

    I’ve just got back from boxing and I overheard some chat down there about Strictly, which starts tonight. “Oh who’s in it?” said somebody. “Adam Peaty!” replied somebody else, quite animated. “Really? Wow,” said a third person without a hint of sarcasm. So, there’s appetite. And don’t forget what a juggernaut Strictly is. It’s arguably as big as the Olympics (here, I mean, not so much globally), it builds to a crescendo at the exact time of the Spoty vote and the people into it overlap strongly with those voting for Spoty and those betting on Spoty.

    But haven’t I said Raducanu will win? Yes, which is why I’m viewing Peaty as a TRADING BET. The envisaged scenario is that in week 3 or 4, say, or any week tbh, the actual week doesn’t matter, he will nail a crowd pleasing paso, or rumba or, whatever, a dance anyway, and there’ll be a reaction in the markets. He’ll become fav for Strictly itself and come shooting in to something like 12s for Spoty. At which point I overlay back and lock in a nice profit.

    The biggest risk to the strategy, in fact the only thing I was truly concerned about, was the BBC would try something “interesting” and post-modern (you know what they’re like) eg pairing Peaty with Anton Du Beke, some woke shit like that, but no, Du Beke is a judge this year and Adam has got Katya Jones, a nice traditional woman dancer who word has it really knows her onions and likes Adam a lot. Word also has it that Peaty can move.

    Your boxing pals did not mention Anthony Joshua who fights tonight?
    No, he didn't get a look in. But tbf the chat wasn't amongst the boxing crowd, it was a group who'd just finished pilates. Still, not the point. The point is how the Spoty vote can be influenced in odd ways. Remember Mo Farah? It looked like he'd never win because - well, who knows - then the year he himself gave up and didn't even turn up, something amazing happened. He was interviewed by link at home, just pre vote, he was tongue tied and embarrassed and his young daughter took over proceedings, a total shambles it was, but what then transpired? He won. The public loved it and he won. And he'd traded at 50s earlier in the evening (I remember it well because I like Mo and stuck a few quid on just for the hell of it). So, possible to see something similar this year. Raducanu is perhaps going a little 'corporate', ie the very opposite of Mo's interview. Many people might prefer Tom or Adam for this award. We're talking the public here remember.
  • kinabalu said:

    Morning all, will comment on the header in a minute but first to return to a betting play I’ve flagged up before, re Spoty. Em (who will win) is a stupidly short 1.08 and this is throwing up value on others, esp Daley (17) and Peaty (70). I’ve done both but the one I most recommend is the latter and here’s why:

    I’ve just got back from boxing and I overheard some chat down there about Strictly, which starts tonight. “Oh who’s in it?” said somebody. “Adam Peaty!” replied somebody else, quite animated. “Really? Wow,” said a third person without a hint of sarcasm. So, there’s appetite. And don’t forget what a juggernaut Strictly is. It’s arguably as big as the Olympics (here, I mean, not so much globally), it builds to a crescendo at the exact time of the Spoty vote and the people into it overlap strongly with those voting for Spoty and those betting on Spoty.

    But haven’t I said Raducanu will win? Yes, which is why I’m viewing Peaty as a TRADING BET. The envisaged scenario is that in week 3 or 4, say, or any week tbh, the actual week doesn’t matter, he will nail a crowd pleasing paso, or rumba or, whatever, a dance anyway, and there’ll be a reaction in the markets. He’ll become fav for Strictly itself and come shooting in to something like 12s for Spoty. At which point I overlay back and lock in a nice profit.

    The biggest risk to the strategy, in fact the only thing I was truly concerned about, was the BBC would try something “interesting” and post-modern (you know what they’re like) eg pairing Peaty with Anton Du Beke, some woke shit like that, but no, Du Beke is a judge this year and Adam has got Katya Jones, a nice traditional woman dancer who word has it really knows her onions and likes Adam a lot. Word also has it that Peaty can move.

    Your boxing pals did not mention Anthony Joshua who fights tonight?
    "Boxing glorifies violence against the person" - discuss.
    The people who tend to make the most money out of it aren't the ones being punched in the face.
  • The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    The fact that that man is not already in jail for the rest of his natural life shows how fragile US democracy is right now. He seems to be untouchable.
  • kle4 said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.

    Funny. In my work the opposite was true (accountant).
    The more senior managers are in most days (three kept coming in back in January and February despite being told several times they really shouldn’t) whilst the ‘kids’ are never seen! It took an email from the Managing Director earlier this month to get them to creep back in.

    I’ve three work colleagues in their twenties I’ve not seen in person since February 2020, and one lady who started in April I’ve never met.
    Whilst senior managers are more likely to have space for a home office than a younger person, if you're not got much experience of office working you're perhaps more inclined not to want to bother with the commute unless required to.
    Perhaps. I don't quite understand it.

    Of the three senior managers who are in everyday, I suspect at least one is getting away from the wife; no doubt using work as an excuse to get out the house. They're also not great with technology. When they WERE at home, it was very much the case of "turn your mic on.... turn on your mic... the button in the bottom left... no, not screen share.... the mic bu.... oh I give up". Two of the three still send paper letters (FFS?!) chasing records to be sent to them, on paper.

    As to the kids, no idea. The kids are more likely to be out and about anyway (at clients doing accounts), but at least one young lady who I finally met on Monday just gone (she started in January) I suspect just likes staying at home with mum and dad.
    My nephew's job is based in London. For the past year he hasn't been paying rent for a place in London and is WFH back at his parents' place in Yorkshire. Still earning London wages, with minimal outgoings. He's not exactly desperate to return to the office.
    I had colleagues in the same boat luxury yacht WFH for a decade before Covid. Work remotely from low cost-of-living places; get paid London wages; no commuting; no rent. Great for them; great for your nephew; but there are already signs employers are starting to wise up so in the long term, maybe not so good.
    Oh, he doesn't expect it to last much longer. But it's all gravy while it lasts.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The European press are having a field day with the UKs supply issues . A bad few weeks for the anti EU brigade in mainland Europe . All the pro EU side have to say is look at the clusterfxck in the UK , do you really want all this drama .

    Why would we be interested in the EU attitude
    The travails of the EU are a source of enduring fascination to leavers. Even born again ones.

    Gore Vidal: It's not enough to succeed, others must fail.
    “When a friend succeeds, a little something in me dies.” :smile:
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

    To me.. she comes across as thick as two short planks..how she got where she us is a matter for comjecture.
    Never confuse lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.
    snip

    I am increasingly coming to see formal education as almost meaningless. My wife and I had a long discussion about this recently. We are both very highly educated (to postgraduate level) but have come to find educated people we encounter as full of themselves and stupid. By contrast people with little formal post compulsory education or vocational qualifications only are actually more civilised on a day to day level and much easier to get along with.

    The worst example of this in a full maternity ward, over capacity, under pressure - with a queue of expectant mothers waiting to be induced. A woman came in and demanded that she could jump the que because she got a first from university - completely ridiculous.

    I am not a fan of Rayner, but don't hold her lack of educational achievement against her in any way.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say EV manufacturers must be getting a lot of clicks today.

    My Tesla already on order!
    Get yourself a Model S!
    Y ?
    Y not?
    The X is shit.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,656
    edited September 2021
    Starmer's proposal that the threshold for acceptance of a leadership challenge, should rise from 10% of MPs to 25%. Rayner is opposing this, the leadership games begin. Streeting must have more than 25%
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    Yes, a military alliance with the USA may not survive Trump back as POTUS. To be fair probably neither Britain or Oz would be keen for it to do so.
  • DavidL said:

    The fact that that man is not already in jail for the rest of his natural life shows how fragile US democracy is right now. He seems to be untouchable.
    It really does look bleak. Why they can't get a grip and get him before a court on tax or whatever is beyond me. The threat is real and present and extreme.

    Wake up Americans!!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218
    edited September 2021
    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

    To me.. she comes across as thick as two short planks..how she got where she us is a matter for comjecture.
    Never confuse lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.
    snip

    I am increasingly coming to see formal education as almost meaningless. My wife and I had a long discussion about this recently. We are both very highly educated (to postgraduate level) but have come to find educated people we encounter as full of themselves and stupid. By contrast people with little formal post compulsory education or vocational qualifications only are actually more civilised on a day to day level and much easier to get along with.

    The worst example of this in a full maternity ward, over capacity, under pressure - with a queue of expectant mothers waiting to be induced. A woman came in and demanded that she could jump the que because she got a first from university - completely ridiculous.

    I am not a fan of Rayner, but don't hold her lack of educational achievement against her in any way.
    One of the problems of the modern system of preferment by professional qualification is that it creates a sense of entitlement on the basis of "I got where I am through a level playing field, and therefore my place is justly mine"

    Which quite often comes out as "Dieu et mon droit".

    They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords,
    Lords without anger or honour, who dare not carry their swords.
    They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
    They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
    And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    Starmer's proposal that the threshold for acceptance of a leadership challenge, should rise from 10% of MPs to 25%. Rayner is opposing this, the leadership games begin. Streeting must have more than 25%

    I pointed out earlier in the week that such a threshold nearly matches the Tory system. There would be no more than 3, and probably just 2 going to the members ballot.
  • The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    This latest Aus-America-UK thing may turn out to be very bad news when the senior partner in this new security arrangement is a fascist dictator.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    edited September 2021

    Charles said:

    Stephen Bush
    @stephenkb
    ·
    17m
    Breakthrough at Tulo: MP nominations threshold for leadership election and challenge raised, registered supporters ditched, deselection made harder. Electoral college: dead.

    Yes, Starmer will be happy with all of that. I'm not sure why his manoeuvres have attracted such opprobrium on here. He was always unlikely to get changes to the electoral college through Conference, so it isn't coming to Conference. We try to do a bit of democratic decision making in Labour. It would have been much worse to proceed with this, as it would dominate Conference and he'd probably have lost. The TUs have apparently said no, so he's pulled it. It's really not some great defeat. But he's had a very significant victory in the changes outlined above. He's strengthened his grip on the party.
    You say it’s democratic. And then celebrate the leader “strengthening his grip” by changing the rules… seems a bit of a philosophical disconnect
    Not at all. You don't understand, but I should have been clearer. The rule changes Starmer wants will have to be democratically approved by Conference; they could, of course, be rejected. But in my post I assumed that he will win the votes to bring about his desired changes and hence strengthen his grip.
    Decent outcome imo. I didn't want to go back to the EC but a higher MP threshold makes sense, so a leader they hate can't be foisted on them, and I always found the notion of 'registered supporters' who pay a few quid and get a vote in the leadership election to be rather casual towards 'proper' members like me and you.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    I think it probably too soon to tell, not until the covid related labour market shakedown is over, but I don't expect it to be a big effect, and may well be nonexistent or negative in terms of purchasing power.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798

    DavidL said:

    The fact that that man is not already in jail for the rest of his natural life shows how fragile US democracy is right now. He seems to be untouchable.
    It really does look bleak. Why they can't get a grip and get him before a court on tax or whatever is beyond me. The threat is real and present and extreme.

    Wake up Americans!!!
    Whilst I would take a tax conviction or whatever we cannot lose sight that Woodward's book and Sullivan's article sets out an indictment of very serious crimes, some of the most serious you can have in a democracy, and those craven stooges in the Senate decided not to convict him of them. Shameful, truly shameful and very, very dangerous.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128
    edited September 2021

    Stocky said:

    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say EV manufacturers must be getting a lot of clicks today.

    That's a good thing - unintended but beneficial.

    Chuckled when I went out (in my EV) in SW London to see gridlock as every Tom, Dick and Harry was queuing up for fuel.
    Yes but: 1) electric is going up in price and 2) you would have paid twice the price for your car in the first place than a petrol would have cost you.
    It would need to go up a lot. On most tariffs you pay around 4 to 5p per mile for a Tesla. Most petrol or diesel cars of similar performance will be about 15 to 20p per mile
    If you bought your Tesla a couple of years ago, you would still be grandfathered in to free electricity at the Superchargers.

    And you can get it free most of the time by installing some solar panels.

    Or by choosing where you charge up eg Tesco
    https://pod-point.com/rollout/tesco-ev-charging
  • The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The fact that that man is not already in jail for the rest of his natural life shows how fragile US democracy is right now. He seems to be untouchable.
    It really does look bleak. Why they can't get a grip and get him before a court on tax or whatever is beyond me. The threat is real and present and extreme.

    Wake up Americans!!!
    Whilst I would take a tax conviction or whatever we cannot lose sight that Woodward's book and Sullivan's article sets out an indictment of very serious crimes, some of the most serious you can have in a democracy, and those craven stooges in the Senate decided not to convict him of them. Shameful, truly shameful and very, very dangerous.
    Yep. These stooges will be the handmaidens to his return and probably triumph.

    We are all f*cked.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

    To me.. she comes across as thick as two short planks..how she got where she us is a matter for comjecture.
    Never confuse lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.
    snip

    I am increasingly coming to see formal education as almost meaningless. My wife and I had a long discussion about this recently. We are both very highly educated (to postgraduate level) but have come to find educated people we encounter as full of themselves and stupid. By contrast people with little formal post compulsory education or vocational qualifications only are actually more civilised on a day to day level and much easier to get along with.

    The worst example of this in a full maternity ward, over capacity, under pressure - with a queue of expectant mothers waiting to be induced. A woman came in and demanded that she could jump the que because she got a first from university - completely ridiculous.

    I am not a fan of Rayner, but don't hold her lack of educational achievement against her in any way.
    One of the problems of the modern system of preferment by professional qualification is that it creates a sense of entitlement on the basis of "I got where I am through a level playing field, and therefore my place is justly mine"

    Which quite often comes out as "Dieu et mon droit".

    They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords,
    Lords without anger or honour, who dare not carry their swords.
    They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
    They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
    And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs
    This; and Brexit/Trump derangement syndrome.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,874

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Is there anything more pathetic than panic buyers?

    Good morning PB

    Indeed there is - those who moan about panic buyers while themselves just popping out to top up the tank. Just in case, you know?
    Well I put some petrol in on Wednesday morning as my petrol warning light was on and would have done so anyway (at that time the garage was deserted)

    £30 which shall keep me going for around 3-4 weeks as I rarely drive to be honest...
    My wife's car has just had its MOT and she did 165 miles all year

    Mind you, the hairdresser is only half a mile away and the doctor and dentist 2 miles
    With that little driving I would start to worry about the evaporation of some of the fractions in the petrol in the tank!
    Personally, if you drive 165 miles a year, you don’t need a car.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218
    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    I think it probably too soon to tell, not until the covid related labour market shakedown is over, but I don't expect it to be a big effect, and may well be nonexistent or negative in terms of purchasing power.
    Construction had definitely seen pay increases, but again it is hard to disentangle COVID from BREXIT. There is a massive boom on now. Construction managers with actual skills and experience can command very high salaries.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The fact that that man is not already in jail for the rest of his natural life shows how fragile US democracy is right now. He seems to be untouchable.
    It really does look bleak. Why they can't get a grip and get him before a court on tax or whatever is beyond me. The threat is real and present and extreme.

    Wake up Americans!!!
    Whilst I would take a tax conviction or whatever we cannot lose sight that Woodward's book and Sullivan's article sets out an indictment of very serious crimes, some of the most serious you can have in a democracy, and those craven stooges in the Senate decided not to convict him of them. Shameful, truly shameful and very, very dangerous.
    Yep. These stooges will be the handmaidens to his return and probably triumph.

    We are all f*cked.
    It's any comfort there isn't really an ideology of Trumpism. He just wants to get high, grope women and enrich his family.

    If/when he does go full fascist dictatorship (repression of 'big tech' and the 'MSM' are racing certainties for Trump47) the UK, Australia, EU, Japan, etc. will do absolutely nothing and largely go along with it.
  • Afternoon all :)

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1441729643434893313

    I see the reforms to the Labour leadership candidate process have been approved by the NEC and will now go to a vote at Conference. I am unsure how this vote will go but it will be a good indication of how pro Starmer the party is and/or how many Corbynites have left.

    My personal view is that this change is desperately needed, Corbyn must never be allowed to stand again. The membership must be prevented from being allowed to vote for a person who does not represent Labour values and just moves Labour further and further away from Government. Labour's job is to win elections - and it is clear the leadership electoral process was not working to achieve this.

    As for Starmer, this really is "now or never" as far as his leadership is concerned. I do think his ability to alienate the hard left has so far worked very well, with them continuing to attack him in public, in many ways doing the job that he will not be listening to them any longer. This can only be a good thing going forwards.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206
    edited September 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Walked past the petrol station near my parents on the way there just now, a tanker was in the station (Esso) already a queue building on the main road. People are idiots. I wonder how many days this one will take to pass. I'm guessing by Tuesday when people see that the petrol pumps are still running they'll give up the idiotic panic buying.

    Look on the bright side - we've created a strategic petrol/diesel reserve, in 31,700,000 individual fuel tanks.
    And think of the unexpected tax-take bonanza …
    Not really, the spending is only being brought forwards. People aren't suddenly going to drive more.
    But brought forward from an infinite time in the future. It’s a stock & flow question
    No, brought forwards from the immediate future. In a couple of weeks forecourts will be watching tumbleweed in between the few commuters and Uber drivers fill up.
    It's probably altered the share of fuel between suppliers quite a bit. Supermarkets tend to take a tanker most days. For a lot of small (more expensive) independents it's more like one every week.

    When you get a massive demand spike like this, the supermarkets will tend to run out faster (small reserves compared to the expected sales volumes) as they only have a bit more than a day's normal sales on hand, whilst the independents have more like a couple of weeks worth (although in apsolute terms they are probably similar quantities on many sites).
    Currently many more people than normal are filling up at independent garages as the supermarkets are running out.

    When normality returns, (and with it a demand dip), customers will probably be distributed again between the supermarkets and the independents at similar ratios to before.
    So looking at the next month or so, overall the independents are going to have done quite well compared to normal, and the supermarkets comparatively badly.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Morning all, will comment on the header in a minute but first to return to a betting play I’ve flagged up before, re Spoty. Em (who will win) is a stupidly short 1.08 and this is throwing up value on others, esp Daley (17) and Peaty (70). I’ve done both but the one I most recommend is the latter and here’s why:

    I’ve just got back from boxing and I overheard some chat down there about Strictly, which starts tonight. “Oh who’s in it?” said somebody. “Adam Peaty!” replied somebody else, quite animated. “Really? Wow,” said a third person without a hint of sarcasm. So, there’s appetite. And don’t forget what a juggernaut Strictly is. It’s arguably as big as the Olympics (here, I mean, not so much globally), it builds to a crescendo at the exact time of the Spoty vote and the people into it overlap strongly with those voting for Spoty and those betting on Spoty.

    But haven’t I said Raducanu will win? Yes, which is why I’m viewing Peaty as a TRADING BET. The envisaged scenario is that in week 3 or 4, say, or any week tbh, the actual week doesn’t matter, he will nail a crowd pleasing paso, or rumba or, whatever, a dance anyway, and there’ll be a reaction in the markets. He’ll become fav for Strictly itself and come shooting in to something like 12s for Spoty. At which point I overlay back and lock in a nice profit.

    The biggest risk to the strategy, in fact the only thing I was truly concerned about, was the BBC would try something “interesting” and post-modern (you know what they’re like) eg pairing Peaty with Anton Du Beke, some woke shit like that, but no, Du Beke is a judge this year and Adam has got Katya Jones, a nice traditional woman dancer who word has it really knows her onions and likes Adam a lot. Word also has it that Peaty can move.

    Your boxing pals did not mention Anthony Joshua who fights tonight?
    No, he didn't get a look in. But tbf the chat wasn't amongst the boxing crowd, it was a group who'd just finished pilates. Still, not the point. The point is how the Spoty vote can be influenced in odd ways. Remember Mo Farah? It looked like he'd never win because - well, who knows - then the year he himself gave up and didn't even turn up, something amazing happened. He was interviewed by link at home, just pre vote, he was tongue tied and embarrassed and his young daughter took over proceedings, a total shambles it was, but what then transpired? He won. The public loved it and he won. And he'd traded at 50s earlier in the evening (I remember it well because I like Mo and stuck a few quid on just for the hell of it). So, possible to see something similar this year. Raducanu is perhaps going a little 'corporate', ie the very opposite of Mo's interview. Many people might prefer Tom or Adam for this award. We're talking the public here remember.
    Yes, I'd agree with your central point, especially for those (like me) who are not already on Emma Raducanu. In particular, the book is so one-sided that there might be value in the place market, so I doubt any bookmakers will offer one, though a "without Raducanu" market is on the cards, as "without" markets have become more popular lately. Good luck with Adam Peaty, though he is 9/1 for Strictly.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    GIN1138 said:

    Is there anything more pathetic than panic buyers?

    Good morning PB

    PBers are a bunch of wankers!

    (That's Panic Buyers btw)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    I think it probably too soon to tell, not until the covid related labour market shakedown is over, but I don't expect it to be a big effect, and may well be nonexistent or negative in terms of purchasing power.
    Construction had definitely seen pay increases, but again it is hard to disentangle COVID from BREXIT. There is a massive boom on now. Construction managers with actual skills and experience can command very high salaries.
    To @Farooq , at a trivial level minimum wage has gone up far faster than inflation.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    I think it probably too soon to tell, not until the covid related labour market shakedown is over, but I don't expect it to be a big effect, and may well be nonexistent or negative in terms of purchasing power.
    Completely agree. Yet it's repeated multiple times daily as fact.
    There is very strong evidence that lower wages in particular are increasing sharply at the moment but the figures are so distorted by Covid that the cause of the increase is uncertain. So, for example, those on low pay suffered disproportionately during furlough and a much greater percentage of them got 80% of their wages rather than having their employers make it up to 100%. As that drops out of the picture it shows that low wages have increased much more rapidly because they are back on 100%, if their jobs still exist.
    There is a good analysis of these effects here: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/15/far-from-average-how-covid-19-has-impacted-the-average-weekly-earnings-data/

    Whether Brexit has a long term effect on low wages has still to be determined. Economic laws of supply and demand suggest that it will but we shall see. At the moment, as I have suggested before, the ripples one way or another caused by Brexit are completely lost in the storms that we have been enduring.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

    To me.. she comes across as thick as two short planks..how she got where she us is a matter for comjecture.
    Never confuse lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.
    snip

    I am increasingly coming to see formal education as almost meaningless. My wife and I had a long discussion about this recently. We are both very highly educated (to postgraduate level) but have come to find educated people we encounter as full of themselves and stupid. By contrast people with little formal post compulsory education or vocational qualifications only are actually more civilised on a day to day level and much easier to get along with.

    The worst example of this in a full maternity ward, over capacity, under pressure - with a queue of expectant mothers waiting to be induced. A woman came in and demanded that she could jump the que because she got a first from university - completely ridiculous.

    I am not a fan of Rayner, but don't hold her lack of educational achievement against her in any way.
    One of the problems of the modern system of preferment by professional qualification is that it creates a sense of entitlement on the basis of "I got where I am through a level playing field, and therefore my place is justly mine"

    Which quite often comes out as "Dieu et mon droit".

    They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords,
    Lords without anger or honour, who dare not carry their swords.
    They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
    They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
    And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs
    This; and Brexit/Trump derangement syndrome.
    That is almost irrelevant. The attitude of mind has been in place for a long time in the UK - my lifetime at least.

    There was a telling interview with one of the people involved with the non-action in Rotherham. She was anguished by the attacks on the professionals, like her. They were The Professionals. They had carefully considered the balance of something and it was all in the best interests of the children as laid out in the professional standards. It was terrible that bad things had happened. But.....

    Her emotional engagement was with the process and the people running the process.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    What do you think happens in the real world when demand outstrips supply ?

    Prices rise.

    So what do you think happens when demand for labour outstrips supply ?

    Pay rates rise.

    So do you think record vacancies plus 'all the Eastern Europeans have gone home' are having no effect ?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
  • So what Kinnock and Smith managed with Labour Starmer has failed to achieve ?

    Did he not check things out before he tried ?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The fact that that man is not already in jail for the rest of his natural life shows how fragile US democracy is right now. He seems to be untouchable.
    It really does look bleak. Why they can't get a grip and get him before a court on tax or whatever is beyond me. The threat is real and present and extreme.

    Wake up Americans!!!
    Whilst I would take a tax conviction or whatever we cannot lose sight that Woodward's book and Sullivan's article sets out an indictment of very serious crimes, some of the most serious you can have in a democracy, and those craven stooges in the Senate decided not to convict him of them. Shameful, truly shameful and very, very dangerous.
    Yep. These stooges will be the handmaidens to his return and probably triumph.

    We are all f*cked.
    It's any comfort there isn't really an ideology of Trumpism. He just wants to get high, grope women and enrich his family.

    If/when he does go full fascist dictatorship (repression of 'big tech' and the 'MSM' are racing certainties for Trump47) the UK, Australia, EU, Japan, etc. will do absolutely nothing and largely go along with it.
    Probably true.
  • I notice ASDA are having a 25% off six bottles of wine offer.

    They don't seem to be having any supply problems.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,301
    darkage said:

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
    In what way are the Democrats “completely crazy”. None of their politics seems particularly out of line with (say) European norms.

    There’s only one party that’s gone completely batshit in the US & that’s the one questioning the results of legitimately held elections.

    (Putting the obviously rejoinder that all politicians are slightly mad because it’s a necessary pre-requisite for wanting the job aside for the moment...)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218
    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    I think it probably too soon to tell, not until the covid related labour market shakedown is over, but I don't expect it to be a big effect, and may well be nonexistent or negative in terms of purchasing power.
    Completely agree. Yet it's repeated multiple times daily as fact.
    There is very strong evidence that lower wages in particular are increasing sharply at the moment but the figures are so distorted by Covid that the cause of the increase is uncertain. So, for example, those on low pay suffered disproportionately during furlough and a much greater percentage of them got 80% of their wages rather than having their employers make it up to 100%. As that drops out of the picture it shows that low wages have increased much more rapidly because they are back on 100%, if their jobs still exist.
    There is a good analysis of these effects here: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/15/far-from-average-how-covid-19-has-impacted-the-average-weekly-earnings-data/

    Whether Brexit has a long term effect on low wages has still to be determined. Economic laws of supply and demand suggest that it will but we shall see. At the moment, as I have suggested before, the ripples one way or another caused by Brexit are completely lost in the storms that we have been enduring.
    What will also be interesting is whether the "conveyer belt" jobs change.

    What I mean by the term is jobs where there is extremely high turnover due to poor pay *and* poor conditions. These require a continual source of new marksemployees to function.

    Current HGV industry seems to have worked on this basis. To be honest, the bottom end jobs in the construction industry works like this. The zero hours contracts where the worker is on-call for being called into work over a ridiculous range of hours....
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206

    Stocky said:

    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say EV manufacturers must be getting a lot of clicks today.

    That's a good thing - unintended but beneficial.

    Chuckled when I went out (in my EV) in SW London to see gridlock as every Tom, Dick and Harry was queuing up for fuel.
    Yes but: 1) electric is going up in price and 2) you would have paid twice the price for your car in the first place than a petrol would have cost you.
    It would need to go up a lot. On most tariffs you pay around 4 to 5p per mile for a Tesla. Most petrol or diesel cars of similar performance will be about 15 to 20p per mile
    And this difference is pretty much a 100% tax arbitrage, given the tax is 2/3rds of the cost of petrol/diesel.
    If EVs actually catch on, at some point the government is going to want that money back, and will end up taxing you the equivalent amount extra.

    Meanwhile, it's yet another way for the government to stiff the poor and not the rich.
  • darkage said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Walked past the petrol station near my parents on the way there just now, a tanker was in the station (Esso) already a queue building on the main road. People are idiots. I wonder how many days this one will take to pass. I'm guessing by Tuesday when people see that the petrol pumps are still running they'll give up the idiotic panic buying.

    The problem is that many people aren't people aren't really panic buying, which is can be a slippery concept, but are often simply people who need transport more urgently than most, and acting as they believe it precautionarily. The same often applies to empty supermarkets and shelves.
    Not really. Anyone who is buying petrol when they normally wouldn't is panic buying. One of the major reasons supermarket shelves were struggling early in the pandemic wasn't just panic buying, it was also that restaurants and takeaways were closed so suddenly food demand at supermarkets went up 20% as everyone was eating at home. That was a semi-permanent increase which is only now unwinding with some estimates that supermarkets will see a permanent increase of around 10% in food sales.

    There is no such effect for petrol. It's idiots who think that the nation will somehow run out of petrol. It won't.
    Here we go again. It's recursive. Idiots are just as effective as driver shortages at limiting the amount of fuel available. So even though the appropriate response to driver shortages is Keep calm, the appropriate response to driver shortages plus Idiots responding inappropriately to driver shortages is Take action.
    I must object (or 'call out', in wokespeak) to sneering at people who are filling up their cars with petrol at the moment. Most of them just need enough petrol to make sure that they can get to work. Many employers are unforgiving and much employment is actually self employment, where failure to turn up on time has adverse consequences. So obviously, in the world of ancient common sense, it is a good idea to fill up with petrol when you have the opportunity, given the apparent problems at petrol stations at the moment. Most people don't think beyond that, and why should they.

    Addendum: My wifes employer actually told her to fill up with petrol to make sure she can get to work. Suggested that she goes to the petrol station at 1 am in the morning when her boss thought it might be quiet! Obviously in her free time. Lol.
    Ordinarily I would be quite Pritismug about this, as we don't *need* to drive much at the moment. The main use for our cars is for me to drive to do various runs, and hence Mrs J's car does not get used much.

    However, as it happens, Mrs J's car has reached three years old, and needs its first MOT. In her own inimitable style, she didn't realise until I checked a few weeks ago, so on Tuesday I need to take it into the garage for its MOT. She wanted it done by the manufacturer, and the Cambridge franchise has closed. And the nearest one we could get in time was at the north side of Peterborough.

    So that's a 35 mile journey up there on Tuesday morning, and the same back. And there's less than 100 miles in the tank. Much less margin than I'd normally like...
  • Afternoon all :)

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1441729643434893313

    I see the reforms to the Labour leadership candidate process have been approved by the NEC and will now go to a vote at Conference. I am unsure how this vote will go but it will be a good indication of how pro Starmer the party is and/or how many Corbynites have left.

    My personal view is that this change is desperately needed, Corbyn must never be allowed to stand again. The membership must be prevented from being allowed to vote for a person who does not represent Labour values and just moves Labour further and further away from Government. Labour's job is to win elections - and it is clear the leadership electoral process was not working to achieve this.

    As for Starmer, this really is "now or never" as far as his leadership is concerned. I do think his ability to alienate the hard left has so far worked very well, with them continuing to attack him in public, in many ways doing the job that he will not be listening to them any longer. This can only be a good thing going forwards.

    Funny how every new Labour leader, and Conservative ones, feel the need to tinker with the rules. Maybe this time they'll get it right but in the mean time, Boris ends every PMQs saying Labour has no plan. Does Keir Starmer have a plan to win power from the Conservatives or just the Corbynistas?
  • nico679 said:

    The European press are having a field day with the UKs supply issues . A bad few weeks for the anti EU brigade in mainland Europe . All the pro EU side have to say is look at the clusterfxck in the UK , do you really want all this drama .

    Why would we be interested in the EU attitude
    Answer: as we are near neighbours it would be isolationist and stupid if we were not
    Two other reasons.

    One is that it's another source of information. Incomplete and biased, like any other source. But we'd be dumb to ignore an input just because of where it comes from.

    The other is that one of the fond imaginings around 2016 was that the UK would be a trailblazer. That other nations would go through the door that we had opened. Had that happened (especially RoI), some of the downsides of the process would have been a lot easier to manage.

    So yes- the attitude of people on the continent (and newspapers are successful when they tell their readers what they already think) matters.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798

    I notice ASDA are having a 25% off six bottles of wine offer.

    They don't seem to be having any supply problems.

    Not in Scotland where such multibuy discounts are illegal for alcohol on the basis that we are all out of control raging alcoholics. Hic!
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

    To me.. she comes across as thick as two short planks..how she got where she us is a matter for comjecture.
    Never confuse lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.
    snip

    I am increasingly coming to see formal education as almost meaningless. My wife and I had a long discussion about this recently. We are both very highly educated (to postgraduate level) but have come to find educated people we encounter as full of themselves and stupid. By contrast people with little formal post compulsory education or vocational qualifications only are actually more civilised on a day to day level and much easier to get along with.

    The worst example of this in a full maternity ward, over capacity, under pressure - with a queue of expectant mothers waiting to be induced. A woman came in and demanded that she could jump the que because she got a first from university - completely ridiculous.

    I am not a fan of Rayner, but don't hold her lack of educational achievement against her in any way.
    One of the problems of the modern system of preferment by professional qualification is that it creates a sense of entitlement on the basis of "I got where I am through a level playing field, and therefore my place is justly mine"

    Which quite often comes out as "Dieu et mon droit".

    They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords,
    Lords without anger or honour, who dare not carry their swords.
    They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
    They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
    And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs
    This; and Brexit/Trump derangement syndrome.
    That is almost irrelevant. The attitude of mind has been in place for a long time in the UK - my lifetime at least.

    There was a telling interview with one of the people involved with the non-action in Rotherham. She was anguished by the attacks on the professionals, like her. They were The Professionals. They had carefully considered the balance of something and it was all in the best interests of the children as laid out in the professional standards. It was terrible that bad things had happened. But.....

    Her emotional engagement was with the process and the people running the process.
    Sure, but things have got worse over the last 5 years. First there was not accepting the Brexit referendum result, which is still a thing. Then there is the woke phenomenon, where they go around acting like a criminal gang demanding allegiance or death. Its not all educated people, by any means; but enough to be a phenomenon.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218
    Phil said:

    darkage said:

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
    In what way are the Democrats “completely crazy”. None of their politics seems particularly out of line with (say) European norms.

    There’s only one party that’s gone completely batshit in the US & that’s the one questioning the results of legitimately held elections.

    (Putting the obviously rejoinder that all politicians are slightly mad because it’s a necessary pre-requisite for wanting the job aside for the moment...)
    Most of the policies of the Biden presidency are to the right of any UK government I can think of.

    Healthcare - in the UK, the only question, for all parties, is how much the NHS budget will be increased by for next year. In Biden America, *AOC* doesn't advocate a unified national health provision service.....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    If there's one thing more tedious than golf on the radio, it sure must be the half hour build up to golf on the radio.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

    To me.. she comes across as thick as two short planks..how she got where she us is a matter for comjecture.
    Never confuse lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.
    snip

    I am increasingly coming to see formal education as almost meaningless. My wife and I had a long discussion about this recently. We are both very highly educated (to postgraduate level) but have come to find educated people we encounter as full of themselves and stupid. By contrast people with little formal post compulsory education or vocational qualifications only are actually more civilised on a day to day level and much easier to get along with.

    The worst example of this in a full maternity ward, over capacity, under pressure - with a queue of expectant mothers waiting to be induced. A woman came in and demanded that she could jump the que because she got a first from university - completely ridiculous.

    I am not a fan of Rayner, but don't hold her lack of educational achievement against her in any way.
    One of the problems of the modern system of preferment by professional qualification is that it creates a sense of entitlement on the basis of "I got where I am through a level playing field, and therefore my place is justly mine"

    Which quite often comes out as "Dieu et mon droit".

    They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords,
    Lords without anger or honour, who dare not carry their swords.
    They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
    They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
    And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs
    This; and Brexit/Trump derangement syndrome.
    That is almost irrelevant. The attitude of mind has been in place for a long time in the UK - my lifetime at least.

    There was a telling interview with one of the people involved with the non-action in Rotherham. She was anguished by the attacks on the professionals, like her. They were The Professionals. They had carefully considered the balance of something and it was all in the best interests of the children as laid out in the professional standards. It was terrible that bad things had happened. But.....

    Her emotional engagement was with the process and the people running the process.
    Sure, but things have got worse over the last 5 years. First there was not accepting the Brexit referendum result, which is still a thing. Then there is the woke phenomenon, where they go around acting like a criminal gang demanding allegiance or death. Its not all educated people, by any means; but enough to be a phenomenon.
    Remember the Common Purpose comedy? The one where everyone ended up denying that Common Purpose was a thing, at all?

    Good Chap Theory and all that....

    It never changes.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128
    edited September 2021
    Saturday thought.

    Is there anything to stop Rishi putting a tax on electricity from public charge points to continue to pivot away from petrol / diesel taxes?

    They must all have meters, surely?
  • If 50% of schoolkids have already been infected with covid (as per Whitty) doesn't that suggest that all the school closures, class bubbles, self-isolating and mask wearing was a failure ?
  • dixiedean said:

    If there's one thing more tedious than golf on the radio, it sure must be the half hour build up to golf on the radio.

    How about snooker on the radio ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    What do you think happens in the real world when demand outstrips supply ?

    Prices rise.

    So what do you think happens when demand for labour outstrips supply ?

    Pay rates rise.

    So do you think record vacancies plus 'all the Eastern Europeans have gone home' are having no effect ?
    Yes, but it is offset by non competitive businesses and employers ceasing trading, so the net effect is uncertain.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    What do you think happens in the real world when demand outstrips supply ?

    Prices rise.

    So what do you think happens when demand for labour outstrips supply ?

    Pay rates rise.

    So do you think record vacancies plus 'all the Eastern Europeans have gone home' are having no effect ?
    Pay rates for *that particular job* rise. However for anybody doing a different job producing something that has to be carried in a lorry pay rates drop, because the shortage means that less stuff is being produced and taken to buyers. The net effect definitely makes consumers overall poorer, and may well make non-immigrant workers in general poorer.
  • darkage said:

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
    The Trumptons are in control now but remember that GOP gerrymandering and voter suppression go back decades. America will not be saved by a Republican reversion to democratic norms.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218

    If 50% of schoolkids have already been infected with covid (as per Whitty) doesn't that suggest that all the school closures, class bubbles, self-isolating and mask wearing was a failure ?

    The idea, I think, was to slow down the rate of spread in schools to reduce the spread (in turn) from the school children to the older population.

    Now whether that has had an effect, or had enough of an effect.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    nico679 said:

    The European press are having a field day with the UKs supply issues . A bad few weeks for the anti EU brigade in mainland Europe . All the pro EU side have to say is look at the clusterfxck in the UK , do you really want all this drama .

    Why would we be interested in the EU attitude
    Answer: as we are near neighbours it would be isolationist and stupid if we were not
    That is very true, and it's the same reason I used to give when people used to say the EU no longer cared what the UK did, and apparently thinking the EU was stupid enough to do such thing.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Phil said:

    darkage said:

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
    In what way are the Democrats “completely crazy”. None of their politics seems particularly out of line with (say) European norms.

    There’s only one party that’s gone completely batshit in the US & that’s the one questioning the results of legitimately held elections.

    (Putting the obviously rejoinder that all politicians are slightly mad because it’s a necessary pre-requisite for wanting the job aside for the moment...)
    The short answer is.... As much as I would like to, I don't have time to explain. I need to do something productive with my day. I am unhealthy, and need to go to the gym, and time is running out for this.

    However, if you think everything is back to post war democratic norms under Biden and the democrats, I can only suggest that you read the article below, and consider the question further.

    https://unherd.com/2021/05/the-day-american-justice-died/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218
    MattW said:

    Saturday thought.

    Is there anything to stop Rishi putting a tax on electricity from public charge points to continue to pivot away from petrol / diesel taxes?

    They must all have meters, surely?

    The problem with taxing electricity is that there is so much of it about. Plug you car into a wall socket at home and it will charge overnight - enough for many uses. Minor bit of electrical work and you can pull 32A, no problem. and then you are really off to the races......

    This is why civil servants were briefing about how a hydrogen economy would be better from the late 90s onwards.

    I was working for an oil company that took the green revolution quite seriously. At one point, if you bought solar cells in Europe, you were probably buying from us. They were quite clear internally, and in various briefings that a big advantage for government of the hydrogen economy would be control and taxation.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,694
    darkage said:

    Phil said:

    darkage said:

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
    In what way are the Democrats “completely crazy”. None of their politics seems particularly out of line with (say) European norms.

    There’s only one party that’s gone completely batshit in the US & that’s the one questioning the results of legitimately held elections.

    (Putting the obviously rejoinder that all politicians are slightly mad because it’s a necessary pre-requisite for wanting the job aside for the moment...)
    The short answer is.... As much as I would like to, I don't have time to explain. I need to do something productive with my day. I am unhealthy, and need to go to the gym, and time is running out for this.

    However, if you think everything is back to post war democratic norms under Biden and the democrats, I can only suggest that you read the article below, and consider the question further.

    https://unherd.com/2021/05/the-day-american-justice-died/
    More like the day exceptional justice for white male law enforcement officers died. Many other Americans will say, welcome to the club.
  • darkage said:

    Phil said:

    darkage said:

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
    In what way are the Democrats “completely crazy”. None of their politics seems particularly out of line with (say) European norms.

    There’s only one party that’s gone completely batshit in the US & that’s the one questioning the results of legitimately held elections.

    (Putting the obviously rejoinder that all politicians are slightly mad because it’s a necessary pre-requisite for wanting the job aside for the moment...)
    The short answer is.... As much as I would like to, I don't have time to explain. I need to do something productive with my day. I am unhealthy, and need to go to the gym, and time is running out for this.

    However, if you think everything is back to post war democratic norms under Biden and the democrats, I can only suggest that you read the article below, and consider the question further.

    https://unherd.com/2021/05/the-day-american-justice-died/
    The claim in the article is that the police officer who was filmed kneeling on a suspect's neck until the suspect died was unjustly convicted, because you may have a reasonable doubt that the death was caused by the kneeling on his neck, rather than an unrelated heart attack. You can agree with this if you like, but for many decades people have been routinely convicted of murder on far weaker grounds than that, so it's fairly ridiculous to think that it suddenly shows justice going off the rails.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,218
    Tres said:

    darkage said:

    Phil said:

    darkage said:

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
    In what way are the Democrats “completely crazy”. None of their politics seems particularly out of line with (say) European norms.

    There’s only one party that’s gone completely batshit in the US & that’s the one questioning the results of legitimately held elections.

    (Putting the obviously rejoinder that all politicians are slightly mad because it’s a necessary pre-requisite for wanting the job aside for the moment...)
    The short answer is.... As much as I would like to, I don't have time to explain. I need to do something productive with my day. I am unhealthy, and need to go to the gym, and time is running out for this.

    However, if you think everything is back to post war democratic norms under Biden and the democrats, I can only suggest that you read the article below, and consider the question further.

    https://unherd.com/2021/05/the-day-american-justice-died/
    More like the day exceptional justice for white male law enforcement officers died. Many other Americans will say, welcome to the club.
    Kneeling on someones neck, is for me, a if-you-break-it-you-buy-it situation. As in - you buy a prison sentence.

    The outcome of doing that is so probably harm to the person you are kneeling on, that it is perfectly reasonable to hold to account for the outcome.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    darkage said:

    Phil said:

    darkage said:

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
    In what way are the Democrats “completely crazy”. None of their politics seems particularly out of line with (say) European norms.

    There’s only one party that’s gone completely batshit in the US & that’s the one questioning the results of legitimately held elections.

    (Putting the obviously rejoinder that all politicians are slightly mad because it’s a necessary pre-requisite for wanting the job aside for the moment...)
    The short answer is.... As much as I would like to, I don't have time to explain. I need to do something productive with my day. I am unhealthy, and need to go to the gym, and time is running out for this.

    However, if you think everything is back to post war democratic norms under Biden and the democrats, I can only suggest that you read the article below, and consider the question further.

    https://unherd.com/2021/05/the-day-american-justice-died/
    "Derek Chauvin...just a cop...ordinary in every way."
    Apart from kneeling on a bloke's neck for 9 minutes till he died.
    That a white man in authority is not given a ludicrously generous definition of "reasonable doubt", in the same way that doubtless Black men are afforded every single day, is a sure sign of a Woke society rampantly oppressing its majority population.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128
    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    The European press are having a field day with the UKs supply issues . A bad few weeks for the anti EU brigade in mainland Europe . All the pro EU side have to say is look at the clusterfxck in the UK , do you really want all this drama .

    Why would we be interested in the EU attitude
    Answer: as we are near neighbours it would be isolationist and stupid if we were not
    That is very true, and it's the same reason I used to give when people used to say the EU no longer cared what the UK did, and apparently thinking the EU was stupid enough to do such thing.
    The EU seems to be alternating between disdain - "we don't need you, you dirty third country, you" - and desperately following things we do a little bit afterwards. And combining it will embarrassingly effusive self-justifications.

    Umpteen elements of vaccines, resolving the USA Airbus / Scotch Whisky dispute, trade deals with Australia, ambitious green targets, stopping using peat, and now they are all rabbiting on about how they will do their own "tilt to the Indo-Pacific".

    If they let us continue to allow us to set their agenda, the EU is going nowhere.

    It needs to start by ditching the butthurt vanity, and setting its own agenda.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    I think it probably too soon to tell, not until the covid related labour market shakedown is over, but I don't expect it to be a big effect, and may well be nonexistent or negative in terms of purchasing power.
    Completely agree. Yet it's repeated multiple times daily as fact.
    There is very strong evidence that lower wages in particular are increasing sharply at the moment but the figures are so distorted by Covid that the cause of the increase is uncertain. So, for example, those on low pay suffered disproportionately during furlough and a much greater percentage of them got 80% of their wages rather than having their employers make it up to 100%. As that drops out of the picture it shows that low wages have increased much more rapidly because they are back on 100%, if their jobs still exist.
    There is a good analysis of these effects here: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/15/far-from-average-how-covid-19-has-impacted-the-average-weekly-earnings-data/

    Whether Brexit has a long term effect on low wages has still to be determined. Economic laws of supply and demand suggest that it will but we shall see. At the moment, as I have suggested before, the ripples one way or another caused by Brexit are completely lost in the storms that we have been enduring.
    Yes, I came across that excellent piece while trying to dig into this myself, and it's a good overview of the present difficulties in arriving at any firm conclusions.
    I will just remind everyone, though, that the question was about the lowest paid, not earnings in general. That's the claim that's been made repeatedly on here.
    For the reasons I have set out the lowest paid are getting the largest increases at the moment. The fact that we have a very tight employment market with 1m vacancies suggests that we will continue to see an upward pressure on wages and this is likely to be particularly so at the bottom end of the market where the supply of labour was previously almost infinitely elastic. This, along with the real increases in the NLW, meant more and more of the workforce being caught by that level with previous enhancements swept away. We will hopefully see that reverse but it will be at least a couple of years before the other factors shake out and who knows what else will have happened by then?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    darkage said:

    Phil said:

    darkage said:

    The most depressing thing I have read in a long time. Andrew Sullivan on Trump running in 2024. The threat to American democracy is real and extreme.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-deepening-menace-of-trump-aac

    We need a worst-case scenario plan for the death of American democracy.
    There's going to be a lot of violence during 2024 and after. A hell of a lot. If Trump engineers a win then I expect some states to leave the union and there will be blood.

    Maybe it's my hangover but I am feeling very bleak today about American's prospects of remaining a stable democracy. It is just incredible that so many GOP members and voters don't want to live in a democracy; they want to live in a Trump monarchy dictatorship and they are prepared to work to undermine democracy to get that result. Seems all this love of the constitution and their way of life as free citizens in a republic was all bullshit.
    Many are happy with a golf club semi fascist state; the better choice to (what they see as) a communist dictatorship under the democrats. Both sides are completely crazy. Maybe the answer is to split the country in to two.
    In what way are the Democrats “completely crazy”. None of their politics seems particularly out of line with (say) European norms.

    There’s only one party that’s gone completely batshit in the US & that’s the one questioning the results of legitimately held elections.

    (Putting the obviously rejoinder that all politicians are slightly mad because it’s a necessary pre-requisite for wanting the job aside for the moment...)
    The short answer is.... As much as I would like to, I don't have time to explain. I need to do something productive with my day. I am unhealthy, and need to go to the gym, and time is running out for this.

    However, if you think everything is back to post war democratic norms under Biden and the democrats, I can only suggest that you read the article below, and consider the question further.

    https://unherd.com/2021/05/the-day-american-justice-died/
    The claim in the article is that the police officer who was filmed kneeling on a suspect's neck until the suspect died was unjustly convicted, because you may have a reasonable doubt that the death was caused by the kneeling on his neck, rather than an unrelated heart attack. You can agree with this if you like, but for many decades people have been routinely convicted of murder on far weaker grounds than that, so it's fairly ridiculous to think that it suddenly shows justice going off the rails.
    Yes, it really doesn't make a very detailed argument in the article, lots of worries, and a suspicious the jury (and future juries) may not have given enough thought to reasonable doubt. Which is something to worry about, but it was not, at this stage, persuasive that this was or will routinely be the case.
  • Yeah, that's going to work:

    Holyrood should have the power to ban arm sales and block wars involving Scottish troops, according to a left-wing Labour MSP.

    Katy Clark believes devolving powers over foreign affairs and defence should be part of a package of measures designed to boost the parliament’s powers.


    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/holyrood-should-veto-uk-defence-25066498

    Why don't they focus on using the powers they already have, rather than bleating about new ones?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    Yeah, that's going to work:

    Holyrood should have the power to ban arm sales and block wars involving Scottish troops, according to a left-wing Labour MSP.

    Katy Clark believes devolving powers over foreign affairs and defence should be part of a package of measures designed to boost the parliament’s powers.


    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/holyrood-should-veto-uk-defence-25066498

    Why don't they focus on using the powers they already have, rather than bleating about new ones?

    Isn't devolving things like foreign affairs and defence "independence"?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    Just the usual Tory made up buffoonery. They would not know the truth if it slapped them in the coupon.
  • Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    is working as designed for our post Brexit labour needs

    BoZo just abandoned it
    You just do not accept we have left the EU and the visa quota scheme addresses our labour needs with minimum salary of £25,600 and can apply worldwide and is specific

    You would rather use cheap EU labour to keep down wages to the detriment of our low paid

    It is a disgrace anyone would want that again
    I'll ask again, since everyone making this claim seems to go to ground when I've previously asked:
    where is the evidence that low-paid wages have gone up since Brexit?

    I tried a few times recently to get to the bottom of this claim, but all I've seen is a wage slump and rebound due to Covid.
    I don't know if you're right or wrong, but they way you and others keep dodging the question is making me suspicious.

    And now I really do have to go.
    Not a single attempt to back that claim up then?
    I'm now going to work on the assumption that it's a lie.
    I think it probably too soon to tell, not until the covid related labour market shakedown is over, but I don't expect it to be a big effect, and may well be nonexistent or negative in terms of purchasing power.
    Completely agree. Yet it's repeated multiple times daily as fact.
    There is very strong evidence that lower wages in particular are increasing sharply at the moment but the figures are so distorted by Covid that the cause of the increase is uncertain. So, for example, those on low pay suffered disproportionately during furlough and a much greater percentage of them got 80% of their wages rather than having their employers make it up to 100%. As that drops out of the picture it shows that low wages have increased much more rapidly because they are back on 100%, if their jobs still exist.
    There is a good analysis of these effects here: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/15/far-from-average-how-covid-19-has-impacted-the-average-weekly-earnings-data/

    Whether Brexit has a long term effect on low wages has still to be determined. Economic laws of supply and demand suggest that it will but we shall see. At the moment, as I have suggested before, the ripples one way or another caused by Brexit are completely lost in the storms that we have been enduring.
    Yes, I came across that excellent piece while trying to dig into this myself, and it's a good overview of the present difficulties in arriving at any firm conclusions.
    I will just remind everyone, though, that the question was about the lowest paid, not earnings in general. That's the claim that's been made repeatedly on here.
    I think it's fair to say the jury's still out. But you are correct - those who keep loudly making this claim as a slam dunk vindication of Brexit and Boris need to provide some concrete evidence or pipe down.
  • Yeah, that's going to work:

    Holyrood should have the power to ban arm sales and block wars involving Scottish troops, according to a left-wing Labour MSP.

    Katy Clark believes devolving powers over foreign affairs and defence should be part of a package of measures designed to boost the parliament’s powers.


    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/holyrood-should-veto-uk-defence-25066498

    Why don't they focus on using the powers they already have, rather than bleating about new ones?

    Well you cannot get 25% off six bottles of wine from ASDA in Scotland.
This discussion has been closed.