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Watermelons or Green perennials: Are the Greens going anywhere? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 25 in General
imageWatermelons or Green perennials: Are the Greens going anywhere? – politicalbetting.com

The Greens have a leadership election on, in fact they are already counting the votes. Most of the voting was online, so the winner is probably already known to the IT guy at Green Party HQ. With the official announcement waiting for the final postal votes to arrive, the leadership prospects have plenty of time to ponder: Will the Greens ever gain supporters over an election campaign?

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,760

    Great piece @Quincel - Thanks

    Very kind of you. I must admit that, lack of a betting tip aside, this is one I'm most pleased with for a couple of weeks.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,723
    Second. Like very few Greens. I concur with the previous statement.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,713
    Agreed. Really good piece.
  • NEW: South Korea reports 3,273 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase on record
  • Despite rising cases in South Korea, they still done incredibly well. 18 months very low cases, hardly any deaths and it isn't like they are located in the middle of nowhere with 100x more sheep than people.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,439
    edited September 25
    Thanks to Quincel for the header.

    German election:

    "The race to succeed Angela Merkel as German chancellor remains completely open two days before western Europe’s most populous country goes to the polls, with the latest predictions showing the leading parties almost neck and neck. Two leading polls published on Friday ahead of Sunday’s election indicate the Social Democrats (SPD) have lost their lead over the Christian Democrats (CDU). One, carried out by Civey for the broadcaster ZDF, showed the SPD to be stable on 25%, but the CDU to have risen to 23%. A poll released later in the day for the polling institute Allensbach for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung showed the race to be even tighter, with the SPD on 26%, the CDU on 25%."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/24/german-election-too-close-to-call-as-spd-lead-evaporates
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 709
    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,489
    Well there’s a coincidence!

    China frees Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig after Huawei boss released…..

    Critics accused China of detaining the Canadians in retaliation for the arrest of Ms Meng, to use as political bargaining chips. Beijing strongly denied this.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58687071
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,489
    On topic - great header @Quincel - I know they are separate parties, but I wonder if the performance of the Scottish Greens in government (more like mangos - green on the outside, yellow on the inside) will have any impact south of the border?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,713
    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    I think this nails it:

    How do you combine - proper separation, meeting colleagues (and having proper relationships with them), low commute times, deep labour pools, affordable housing, etc.

    It's a real toughy.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,042
    Super thread - many thanks.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,489

    Well there’s a coincidence!

    China frees Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig after Huawei boss released…..

    Critics accused China of detaining the Canadians in retaliation for the arrest of Ms Meng, to use as political bargaining chips. Beijing strongly denied this.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58687071

    Great news of course but also unsettling, proving that the two Michaels indeed were hostages and definitively putting China into a class of countries that snatch foreigners as hostages.
    https://twitter.com/iandenisjohnson/status/1441628941995986944?s=20
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,813
    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    I think this nails it:

    How do you combine - proper separation, meeting colleagues (and having proper relationships with them), low commute times, deep labour pools, affordable housing, etc.

    It's a real toughy.
    Contracting.

    Sadly, it's not an option available to the vast majority of the workforce.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,601
    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    I think this nails it:

    How do you combine - proper separation, meeting colleagues (and having proper relationships with them), low commute times, deep labour pools, affordable housing, etc.

    It's a real toughy.
    While there are definitely people who fare better at the office, what’s missed by many is that there are just as many who are the opposite. If your goal is getting laid with a colleague or climbing the greasy pole then sure, be present.

    If you’re happily married, already have a wider social circle than can be easily managed and no longer have career ambition, who wants to go and waste life on a commute to so sit in a soulless office with people you would have little to no interest in talking to if you weren’t paid to do so?

    I still find myself surprised to find things about WFH that I love. The end of “work drinks” for one. You gradually train yourself to think they’re fun but really it’s just the invasion of office politics into your leisure hours. Having left a job in the pandemic after a very long time, it’s actually quite staggering how few of my ex colleagues I feel inclined to stay in touch with.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,553
    rcs1000 said:
    On this subject, I do wonder whether Trump loses Florida in 2024 because of a differential death-rate among his supporters?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,541
    edited September 25

    Well there’s a coincidence!

    China frees Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig after Huawei boss released…..

    Critics accused China of detaining the Canadians in retaliation for the arrest of Ms Meng, to use as political bargaining chips. Beijing strongly denied this.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58687071

    Great news of course but also unsettling, proving that the two Michaels indeed were hostages and definitively putting China into a class of countries that snatch foreigners as hostages.
    https://twitter.com/iandenisjohnson/status/1441628941995986944?s=20
    The original arrest of Meng also smells more like geopolitics than law enforcement.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 14,550

    On topic - great header @Quincel - I know they are separate parties, but I wonder if the performance of the Scottish Greens in government (more like mangos - green on the outside, yellow on the inside) will have any impact south of the border?

    Not really in government very much, it's not a formal coalition of the ilk of the Tories and LDs in Westminster 2010-5. So not sure how that will work.

    Also: completely different voting systems in Holyrood (fiddled to do the exact oppositre of what FPTP is fiddled to do at Westminster). So performance in elections is incommensurable: CV is quite right to be precise as to what 'performance' means.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,949
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Moonshine, being able to listen to whatever music I like, or just take a stroll if my back's aching, are nice little bonuses.

    F1: very soggy in Sochi apparently. May peruse the third practice market and put a few pence on long shots.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,713
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    I think this nails it:

    How do you combine - proper separation, meeting colleagues (and having proper relationships with them), low commute times, deep labour pools, affordable housing, etc.

    It's a real toughy.
    While there are definitely people who fare better at the office, what’s missed by many is that there are just as many who are the opposite. If your goal is getting laid with a colleague or climbing the greasy pole then sure, be present.

    If you’re happily married, already have a wider social circle than can be easily managed and no longer have career ambition, who wants to go and waste life on a commute to so sit in a soulless office with people you would have little to no interest in talking to if you weren’t paid to do so?

    I still find myself surprised to find things about WFH that I love. The end of “work drinks” for one. You gradually train yourself to think they’re fun but really it’s just the invasion of office politics into your leisure hours. Having left a job in the pandemic after a very long time, it’s actually quite staggering how few of my ex colleagues I feel inclined to stay in touch with.
    Oh, I agree.

    When you are 40, with a wife and kids and friends, and a home with dedicated space to work in... then yeah, WFH is great.

    (Until, of course, that greasy oik a decade your junior gets your boss's ear.)

    But for people who don't have their own place, or are new, or any one of a number of things, it sucks.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,004
    Quincel said:

    Great piece @Quincel - Thanks

    Very kind of you. I must admit that, lack of a betting tip aside, this is one I'm most pleased with for a couple of weeks.
    Yes, it is a good piece (yours always are) and the greens see to be at a crossroads. Do they want to be a party of protest. The politician wing of X-R! Or a serious party and become more like european green parties. It is interesting the red wall comment. The greens have started to break through in the north east. They took a seat in Durham they weren’t expected to as well as a few others up,here. There is a place for Good campaigning local councillors working on issues that matter to local people and they can do it.

    It’s common sense to grow from an established councillor base. The Lib Dem’s did it so well.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,601
    On the Greens. Were I the outstanding political talent of the generation, the new Blair, I would be co-opting the Green Party rather than Labour.

    They need a Clause 4 moment, namely making a break with hair shirt wearing, the public nuisance and the condescension. And to make a bold pact with big business and underline the financial upside of going green. Become a realistic alternative to right leaning under 50 workers just as much as Momentum. Tricky balance and I don’t see the outstanding talent on the horizon to do it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    Good morning fellow panic buyers!

    With the lack of imposition of customs at the Channel, scrapping of the NI protocol and now a U turn on recruiting HGV drivers is it time to predict the Tory slogan for next GE as "Getting Brexit Undone"?

    Good piece @Quincel.

    I think that the Greens can ride both horses for a bit longer, being mainstream in target areas and the political arm of XR in others simultaneously.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,497
    Ive been in the office every day this week despite very few people choosing to, mainly because the IT equipment is better so I’m more productive.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,594
    edited September 25
    OT, some interesting thoughts in the header, but I'm not at all sure that Starmer is wise to ignore the Green factor. From what I can see, he's lost above five, or possibly even six points to them since becoming leader. If there's further internal faction-fighting, and he's seen to be unequivocally identified with the labour right, rather than taking a much more nuanced position, he may lose even more. He's not picking up soft-tory votes in their place so far, as in Mandelson's 1990's model we discussed yesterday, and if I was him I would be extremely careful.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    Roddy Dunlop QC put it best. It is the difference between working from home and living in the office.

    I managed this well in the first lockdown but have found it increasingly difficult and have tried to find reasons. Reading both your posts explains it well. Its that over time the barriers between working and being at home gradually dissolve so you never feel that you are properly at work or completely able to relax. I had been looking at the garden shed idea so I am disappointed you have found that hasn't worked either.

    Over the last 2 weeks I have been out in court every day prosecuting. It has been a psychological relief. I am really not sure what the long term solution is going to be.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,601

    Ive been in the office every day this week despite very few people choosing to, mainly because the IT equipment is better so I’m more productive.

    That’s interesting. In my place the consensus is the opposite. People’s home IT setup is superior to the office and the connection speed for video calls better too.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,675
    moonshine said:


    They need a Clause 4 moment, namely making a break with hair shirt wearing, the public nuisance and the condescension. And to make a bold pact with big business and underline the financial upside of going green. Become a realistic alternative to right leaning under 50 workers just as much as Momentum. Tricky balance and I don’t see the outstanding talent on the horizon to do it.

    What's the point of that? The party would no longer be the Greens at that point but would just be a better educated version of the LibDems; another party that finds it easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.

    The Greens have always been very keen on direct action as well as electoral politics and that will never go away. This leadership contest is all about the Armalite vs Ballot Box strategies. I voted Omond/Womack as the party needs young, feminist, intersectionalist leadership.
  • Speaking of trying to co-opt the Greens, heartbreaking news.

    https://twitter.com/doublehelix/status/1441397039925907471?s=21
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,601
    Dura_Ace said:

    moonshine said:


    They need a Clause 4 moment, namely making a break with hair shirt wearing, the public nuisance and the condescension. And to make a bold pact with big business and underline the financial upside of going green. Become a realistic alternative to right leaning under 50 workers just as much as Momentum. Tricky balance and I don’t see the outstanding talent on the horizon to do it.

    What's the point of that? The party would no longer be the Greens at that point but would just be a better educated version of the LibDems; another party that finds it easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.

    The Greens have always been very keen on direct action as well as electoral politics and that will never go away. This leadership contest is all about the Armalite vs Ballot Box strategies. I voted Omond/Womack as the party needs young, feminist, intersectionalist leadership.
    Because we all urgently need the green cause to become the central plank of governance. And that won’t happen by fighting the system, only by making the system work in your favour.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    Dura_Ace said:

    moonshine said:


    They need a Clause 4 moment, namely making a break with hair shirt wearing, the public nuisance and the condescension. And to make a bold pact with big business and underline the financial upside of going green. Become a realistic alternative to right leaning under 50 workers just as much as Momentum. Tricky balance and I don’t see the outstanding talent on the horizon to do it.

    What's the point of that? The party would no longer be the Greens at that point but would just be a better educated version of the LibDems; another party that finds it easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.

    The Greens have always been very keen on direct action as well as electoral politics and that will never go away. This leadership contest is all about the Armalite vs Ballot Box strategies. I voted Omond/Womack as the party needs young, feminist, intersectionalist leadership.
    I agree. For those disenchanted with being at the sharp end of planet destroying consumerist capitalism there are really only two alternative ideologies out there. Green fundamentalism, or Islamism, and as I like beer only one makes the shortlist.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648

    Ive been in the office every day this week despite very few people choosing to, mainly because the IT equipment is better so I’m more productive.

    I now find that I can spend 2.5 hours driving back and forward to Edinburgh in a day and I still get more work done than I do in my office in the house. Its irrational but at work I have a work mindset, I get on with it. Here, the temptation of PB and many other distractions seems ever present.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,569
    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    Roddy Dunlop QC put it best. It is the difference between working from home and living in the office.

    I managed this well in the first lockdown but have found it increasingly difficult and have tried to find reasons. Reading both your posts explains it well. Its that over time the barriers between working and being at home gradually dissolve so you never feel that you are properly at work or completely able to relax. I had been looking at the garden shed idea so I am disappointed you have found that hasn't worked either.

    Over the last 2 weeks I have been out in court every day prosecuting. It has been a psychological relief. I am really not sure what the long term solution is going to be.
    Someone here, possibly @kinabalu, put it brilliantly: people are Clark Kent at home, Superman in the office, and the train is the phone booth.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,528
    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,528
    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    I think this nails it:

    How do you combine - proper separation, meeting colleagues (and having proper relationships with them), low commute times, deep labour pools, affordable housing, etc.

    It's a real toughy.
    While there are definitely people who fare better at the office, what’s missed by many is that there are just as many who are the opposite. If your goal is getting laid with a colleague or climbing the greasy pole then sure, be present.

    If you’re happily married, already have a wider social circle than can be easily managed and no longer have career ambition, who wants to go and waste life on a commute to so sit in a soulless office with people you would have little to no interest in talking to if you weren’t paid to do so?

    I still find myself surprised to find things about WFH that I love. The end of “work drinks” for one. You gradually train yourself to think they’re fun but really it’s just the invasion of office politics into your leisure hours. Having left a job in the pandemic after a very long time, it’s actually quite staggering how few of my ex colleagues I feel inclined to stay in touch with.
    Oh, I agree.

    When you are 40, with a wife and kids and friends, and a home with dedicated space to work in... then yeah, WFH is great.

    (Until, of course, that greasy oik a decade your junior gets your boss's ear.)

    But for people who don't have their own place, or are new, or any one of a number of things, it sucks.
    https://youtu.be/8UIqLCTMnHk
    That clip is lovely, thanks.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,127

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Not sure how the government is to blame for panic buying.

    I get that people want to fill up because they might not be able to tomorrow, but what I don’t get is the queuing. Unless you absolutely need to fill up now, why bother?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    Roddy Dunlop QC put it best. It is the difference between working from home and living in the office.

    I managed this well in the first lockdown but have found it increasingly difficult and have tried to find reasons. Reading both your posts explains it well. Its that over time the barriers between working and being at home gradually dissolve so you never feel that you are properly at work or completely able to relax. I had been looking at the garden shed idea so I am disappointed you have found that hasn't worked either.

    Over the last 2 weeks I have been out in court every day prosecuting. It has been a psychological relief. I am really not sure what the long term solution is going to be.
    Someone here, possibly @kinabalu, put it brilliantly: people are Clark Kent at home, Superman in the office, and the train is the phone booth.
    Though judging by some PB contributors, Genghis Khan at home is also an option.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,489
    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,601

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    I do hope my message early on Thursday on the storage in locally on Kent was the butterfly that flapped its wings.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,594
    edited September 25

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Whatever the whys and wherefores, I would say, the govt are going to take a major hit over this. Some furious relatives I spoke to yesterday, including a very county-and-range rover, dyed-in-the-wool Tory and Brexit-supporting cousin, very unlike me.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,244
    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    I think this nails it:

    How do you combine - proper separation, meeting colleagues (and having proper relationships with them), low commute times, deep labour pools, affordable housing, etc.

    It's a real toughy.
    Not concentrating a lot of industries in a single place would go a long way to solve that
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,225

    Despite rising cases in South Korea, they still done incredibly well. 18 months very low cases, hardly any deaths and it isn't like they are located in the middle of nowhere with 100x more sheep than people.

    I believe the number of those who’ve had their first vaccine shot has now overtaken the US.
    Fully vaccinated around 44%, but clearly no hesitancy.
  • tlg86 said:

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Not sure how the government is to blame for panic buying.

    I get that people want to fill up because they might not be able to tomorrow, but what I don’t get is the queuing. Unless you absolutely need to fill up now, why bother?
    Do you think Nadine (minister in this government for whatever bollox she’s minister for) has made the fuel supply problem & associated panic better or worse with this tweet?

    https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1441463208603176965?s=21
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,949
    Mr. Z, jein.

    Broad brush WFH is bad/good comments are all wrong. It works for some businesses and people and not others. An inability to be able to work from home isn't a moral lack of discipline, it's more about personality types (and vice versa).
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,528
    tlg86 said:

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Not sure how the government is to blame for panic buying.

    I get that people want to fill up because they might not be able to tomorrow, but what I don’t get is the queuing. Unless you absolutely need to fill up now, why bother?
    Quite so. I'm not really blaming the government; except that I do think they added fuel to the fire by going on air and talking about it, even if it was to say there's no problem, rather than just ignoring it. I suspect there's quite a low level of trust in what the government says at the moment. I am curious as to why BP/Shell announced that a handful of service stations were temporarily closed though; maybe that forced the government's hand?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    On topic, and thanks for the header, there was an interesting discussion on R5 yesterday. They had the standard right wing think tank person and someone from the Guardian to represent the leftish point of view (I sometimes struggle to decide if Labour or the Guardian is actually representing leftish views in this country).

    What was interesting was that the Guardian writer was far more enthusiastic about Boris's speech in the UN (apart from the Kermit joke) than the think tank chap. She acknowledged that when Boris put his enthusiasm behind something he could be genuinely influential and get things done. Of course this was all laced with comments about him having the concentration span of a goldfish and his inclination to move on all too rapidly to his next enthusiasm but she emphasised that right now he was in the right place and "we should all be rowing in behind him" on this.

    Whether you agree with this or not it seems to me that this is the quintessential problem for the Greens: are they a pressure group trying to influence government policy or are they a real political party? I think that they are more effective as the former and they clearly have influenced the national discussion. Voting green is not a wasted vote in this scenario, not at all. It is an indication that the mainstream politicians should pay attention.

    It is also an indication of the problem for Starmer. Someone who is ideologically promiscuous as Boris (is ideologically really needed) will have no problem in seizing an agenda like this, even if it does not fit with traditional emphasis on the economy and business of Tories such as think tank guy. Creating a distinctive position that might seize the imagination of the public is going to be very difficult for Starmer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,225
    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    I think this nails it:

    How do you combine - proper separation, meeting colleagues (and having proper relationships with them), low commute times, deep labour pools, affordable housing, etc.

    It's a real toughy.
    The simplest and quickest compromise is splitting the week between office and home. It’s not perfect, but it at least partly satisfies all of those criteria.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,244
    moonshine said:

    Ive been in the office every day this week despite very few people choosing to, mainly because the IT equipment is better so I’m more productive.

    That’s interesting. In my place the consensus is the opposite. People’s home IT setup is superior to the office and the connection speed for video calls better too.
    The guy who sits opposite me talks so damn loudly that every time I’m on a Zoom call clients complain about the background noise.
  • Foxy said:

    Good morning fellow panic buyers!

    With the lack of imposition of customs at the Channel, scrapping of the NI protocol and now a U turn on recruiting HGV drivers is it time to predict the Tory slogan for next GE as "Getting Brexit Undone"?

    Good piece @Quincel.

    I think that the Greens can ride both horses for a bit longer, being mainstream in target areas and the political arm of XR in others simultaneously.

    There's still 40% or so who think it's a good idea, which seems to be defining a fairly solid floor for the Conservative vote- and in FPTP, 40% is generally enough. It is drifting down at the moment... I wonder what percentage would motivate a change in Conservative emphasis? (Though surely one they could only really execute in opposition?)

    As for the Greens, the new ingredient is Corbynistas who want Starmer to lose because he was Pilate to the Jezziah. They're clearly loud, but how numerous are they?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,651
    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    Roddy Dunlop QC put it best. It is the difference between working from home and living in the office.

    I managed this well in the first lockdown but have found it increasingly difficult and have tried to find reasons. Reading both your posts explains it well. Its that over time the barriers between working and being at home gradually dissolve so you never feel that you are properly at work or completely able to relax. I had been looking at the garden shed idea so I am disappointed you have found that hasn't worked either.

    Over the last 2 weeks I have been out in court every day prosecuting. It has been a psychological relief. I am really not sure what the long term solution is going to be.
    Husband has been hybrid working for years, as have many in his chambers. The garden office does work provided you are very disciplined about keeping the children out of it. But - like many others - he also made time to go to work-social events and to go and meet people as often as he could when he wasn't at a hearing precisely in order to avoid the loneliness factor etc.

    I found working from home very much harder when I had a regular office job and rarely did it - partly because the nature of the job meant it was not practical and partly because I hated feeling that home was not separate from work. I enjoyed my commute because it was one of the few times I had entirely to myself when I could read or watch something on iPlayer and it helped mark a break between work and home.

    It is different since becoming self-employed but the children are grown up so there are not the same pressures. It will be interesting to see how this new project works out from that perspective. Some face to face time will be needed but many of the people I will need to interact with are also working from home too. But since I will not be an employee and there is an end date to it, it is different to being an employee trying to climb the corporate ladder. Permanent WFH is hard I think for those starting out.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    God, he is truly pathetic.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,244

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Entirely driven by the media spinning a few stations running out into a nationwide shortage
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,528
    edited September 25

    tlg86 said:

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Not sure how the government is to blame for panic buying.

    I get that people want to fill up because they might not be able to tomorrow, but what I don’t get is the queuing. Unless you absolutely need to fill up now, why bother?
    Do you think Nadine (minister in this government for whatever bollox she’s minister for) has made the fuel supply problem & associated panic better or worse with this tweet?

    https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1441463208603176965?s=21
    Ha ha. I can confirm the veracity of the tweet below Nadine's, from the experience I outlined in an earlier post:
    Just driven past a queue of 50 cars trying to get petrol as the other stations in Brighton are sold out! Ludicrous ..
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,439
    Election day in Iceland.

    https://wtvbam.com/2021/09/24/in-iceland-election-political-stability-again-at-stake/

    "COPENHAGEN (Reuters) – Icelanders vote on Saturday in an election that could have a messy outcome with a record nine parties likely to enter parliament, making it difficult to find common ground on topics like climate change and healthcare.

    The North Atlantic island of 371,000 citizens has seen a period of stability since 2017 under the ruling left-right coalition, after years of political scandals and distrust of politicians following the 2008 financial crisis.

    The current government coalition led by Prime Minister Katrín Jakobsdóttir’s Left-Green Movement won its mandate on a promise to secure stability after Icelanders went to polls five times from 2007 to 2017."
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    Roddy Dunlop QC put it best. It is the difference between working from home and living in the office.

    I managed this well in the first lockdown but have found it increasingly difficult and have tried to find reasons. Reading both your posts explains it well. Its that over time the barriers between working and being at home gradually dissolve so you never feel that you are properly at work or completely able to relax. I had been looking at the garden shed idea so I am disappointed you have found that hasn't worked either.

    Over the last 2 weeks I have been out in court every day prosecuting. It has been a psychological relief. I am really not sure what the long term solution is going to be.
    Someone here, possibly @kinabalu, put it brilliantly: people are Clark Kent at home, Superman in the office, and the train is the phone booth.
    I am not entirely sure that my friends in Edinburgh would accept that description but I know what you mean. Its a mindset.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,651
    DavidL said:

    Ive been in the office every day this week despite very few people choosing to, mainly because the IT equipment is better so I’m more productive.

    I now find that I can spend 2.5 hours driving back and forward to Edinburgh in a day and I still get more work done than I do in my office in the house. Its irrational but at work I have a work mindset, I get on with it. Here, the temptation of PB and many other distractions seems ever present.
    Shifting that mindset is key.

    Mind you when I remember some of the non-work-related conversations we used to have in our team, I do wonder about our mindset when we were in the office ........
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,244
    tlg86 said:

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Not sure how the government is to blame for panic buying.

    I get that people want to fill up because they might not be able to tomorrow, but what I don’t get is the queuing. Unless you absolutely need to fill up now, why bother?
    Because the perceived risk there may be no petrol tomorrow
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 3,833
    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    Full time WFH has never been a real option for me, but I do quite a bit of my educational and research work at home. I really wouldn't want it to be more than 20% of my work. I don't think I would be very productive doing it full time. The casual interactions in the office often set off new ideas.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,497
    Just had surgery cancelled for the 2nd time. Only found out about it when I went for the pre-surgery Covid swab.

    Really sick of it now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,225
    moonshine said:

    On the Greens. Were I the outstanding political talent of the generation, the new Blair, I would be co-opting the Green Party rather than Labour.

    They need a Clause 4 moment, namely making a break with hair shirt wearing, the public nuisance and the condescension. And to make a bold pact with big business and underline the financial upside of going green. Become a realistic alternative to right leaning under 50 workers just as much as Momentum. Tricky balance and I don’t see the outstanding talent on the horizon to do it.

    An excellent notion - though how often does anyone see outstanding talent on the horizon before it suddenly appears ?
    And is such a leader likely without a large turnover in party membership first ?

    Perhaps more likely that one of the two major parties goes full green.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,489
    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    She’s just came across well on R4 - sticks to her line without sounding hectoring or defensive. She is also one of the few Labour leading lights who seemed to “get it” in Sebastian Payne’s “Broken Heartlands”.
  • Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    I think this nails it:

    How do you combine - proper separation, meeting colleagues (and having proper relationships with them), low commute times, deep labour pools, affordable housing, etc.

    It's a real toughy.
    The simplest and quickest compromise is splitting the week between office and home. It’s not perfect, but it at least partly satisfies all of those criteria.
    The other thing might be retail workspaces near where people live. Get out of the house, but your commute is a five minute walk, not an hour on a train. This sort of thing;

    https://www.portsmouth.anglican.org/news/2020/01/10/new-space-workers-created-inside-church/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,244

    tlg86 said:

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Not sure how the government is to blame for panic buying.

    I get that people want to fill up because they might not be able to tomorrow, but what I don’t get is the queuing. Unless you absolutely need to fill up now, why bother?
    Do you think Nadine (minister in this government for whatever bollox she’s minister for) has made the fuel supply problem & associated panic better or worse with this tweet?

    https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1441463208603176965?s=21
    Let’s think about this logically:

    - it’s on Twitter
    - irrelevant minor politician*
    - it’s on Twitter
    - She doesn’t have many followers
    - It’s on Twitter

    I’m going with “no impact”

    * I know she’s in the cabinet, but still…
    *
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 3,833

    Just had surgery cancelled for the 2nd time. Only found out about it when I went for the pre-surgery Covid swab.

    Really sick of it now.

    Nearly clicked like, but that’s not the right response. Hope you get it soon.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,949
    Sorry to hear that, Mr. Gate.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,602
    Queues all around for petrol. Meanwhile on red light. Annoying. Going to have to join the madness.

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,528
    DavidL said:

    On topic, and thanks for the header, there was an interesting discussion on R5 yesterday. They had the standard right wing think tank person and someone from the Guardian to represent the leftish point of view (I sometimes struggle to decide if Labour or the Guardian is actually representing leftish views in this country).

    What was interesting was that the Guardian writer was far more enthusiastic about Boris's speech in the UN (apart from the Kermit joke) than the think tank chap. She acknowledged that when Boris put his enthusiasm behind something he could be genuinely influential and get things done. Of course this was all laced with comments about him having the concentration span of a goldfish and his inclination to move on all too rapidly to his next enthusiasm but she emphasised that right now he was in the right place and "we should all be rowing in behind him" on this.

    Whether you agree with this or not it seems to me that this is the quintessential problem for the Greens: are they a pressure group trying to influence government policy or are they a real political party? I think that they are more effective as the former and they clearly have influenced the national discussion. Voting green is not a wasted vote in this scenario, not at all. It is an indication that the mainstream politicians should pay attention.

    It is also an indication of the problem for Starmer. Someone who is ideologically promiscuous as Boris (is ideologically really needed) will have no problem in seizing an agenda like this, even if it does not fit with traditional emphasis on the economy and business of Tories such as think tank guy. Creating a distinctive position that might seize the imagination of the public is going to be very difficult for Starmer.

    I agree with all that, but it could be a problem for Boris as well. Over on Conservative Home, there is constant moaning about all the "green crap" that the government is going along with. More Conservatives than Labourites do not support the green agenda in the slightest, and some may turn on Boris.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    Roddy Dunlop QC put it best. It is the difference between working from home and living in the office.

    I managed this well in the first lockdown but have found it increasingly difficult and have tried to find reasons. Reading both your posts explains it well. Its that over time the barriers between working and being at home gradually dissolve so you never feel that you are properly at work or completely able to relax. I had been looking at the garden shed idea so I am disappointed you have found that hasn't worked either.

    Over the last 2 weeks I have been out in court every day prosecuting. It has been a psychological relief. I am really not sure what the long term solution is going to be.
    Husband has been hybrid working for years, as have many in his chambers. The garden office does work provided you are very disciplined about keeping the children out of it. But - like many others - he also made time to go to work-social events and to go and meet people as often as he could when he wasn't at a hearing precisely in order to avoid the loneliness factor etc.

    I found working from home very much harder when I had a regular office job and rarely did it - partly because the nature of the job meant it was not practical and partly because I hated feeling that home was not separate from work. I enjoyed my commute because it was one of the few times I had entirely to myself when I could read or watch something on iPlayer and it helped mark a break between work and home.

    It is different since becoming self-employed but the children are grown up so there are not the same pressures. It will be interesting to see how this new project works out from that perspective. Some face to face time will be needed but many of the people I will need to interact with are also working from home too. But since I will not be an employee and there is an end date to it, it is different to being an employee trying to climb the corporate ladder. Permanent WFH is hard I think for those starting out.
    My daughter started working for a public sector body last October so she will soon have been there a year but she is yet to have a day working in the office (she did go in for some filming of a promotional video). She has met her work colleagues for drinks once but otherwise knows them through an online social chat that they have each morning. It has been incredibly hard for her.

    She is a much better people person than me but this has upsides and downsides. On the one hand she has made the screen chat work to a certain extent and has built relationships. On the other she misses the social interaction even more than I would. She really wants to be in the Office and to build a social life around her new friends. It feels as if her life is on hold in some respects.
  • Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Not sure how the government is to blame for panic buying.

    I get that people want to fill up because they might not be able to tomorrow, but what I don’t get is the queuing. Unless you absolutely need to fill up now, why bother?
    Do you think Nadine (minister in this government for whatever bollox she’s minister for) has made the fuel supply problem & associated panic better or worse with this tweet?

    https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1441463208603176965?s=21
    Let’s think about this logically:

    - it’s on Twitter
    - irrelevant minor politician*
    - it’s on Twitter
    - She doesn’t have many followers
    - It’s on Twitter

    I’m going with “no impact”

    * I know she’s in the cabinet, but still…
    *
    I believe several ministers have been tweeting the no fuel shortage line. Q is, if there’s no impact why are they doing it? Keeps the useless fcukers occupied I suppose.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,651

    'Bodies with vaginas'. The word you're looking for is 'women'.

    https://twitter.com/JournoStephen/status/1441478999033593861?s=20

    In "The Lancet" ffs.....

    Why are you surprised? It's the magazine that supported Andrew Wakefield.

    Interestingly, when it wrote about prostate cancer, only 4 days ago, or to the effect of Covid on men's health, it referred to men. Not one of their body parts. But it is apparently ok for a medical magazine to describe women as little more than holes.



  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,244
    DavidL said:

    On topic, and thanks for the header, there was an interesting discussion on R5 yesterday. They had the standard right wing think tank person and someone from the Guardian to represent the leftish point of view (I sometimes struggle to decide if Labour or the Guardian is actually representing leftish views in this country).

    What was interesting was that the Guardian writer was far more enthusiastic about Boris's speech in the UN (apart from the Kermit joke) than the think tank chap. She acknowledged that when Boris put his enthusiasm behind something he could be genuinely influential and get things done. Of course this was all laced with comments about him having the concentration span of a goldfish and his inclination to move on all too rapidly to his next enthusiasm but she emphasised that right now he was in the right place and "we should all be rowing in behind him" on this.

    Whether you agree with this or not it seems to me that this is the quintessential problem for the Greens: are they a pressure group trying to influence government policy or are they a real political party? I think that they are more effective as the former and they clearly have influenced the national discussion. Voting green is not a wasted vote in this scenario, not at all. It is an indication that the mainstream politicians should pay attention.

    It is also an indication of the problem for Starmer. Someone who is ideologically promiscuous as Boris (is ideologically really needed) will have no problem in seizing an agenda like this, even if it does not fit with traditional emphasis on the economy and business of Tories such as think tank guy. Creating a distinctive position that might seize the imagination of the public is going to be very difficult for Starmer.

    The Tories have always had very strong green tinge - the “stewardship” agenda.

    It just isn’t self-loathing in the way that left-leaning greenery often is

    (It’s the difference between “we want to do this, how can we do it in the best way possible” and “humans are evil and must be constrained “)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 3,833
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    She seems to get that if you are in permanent opposition you don’t enact any of your ideas and plans. More in the party need to grasp this simple truth. Whatever you think of the Conservatives it’s accepted that they do what it takes to get power and stay there.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805

    Just had surgery cancelled for the 2nd time. Only found out about it when I went for the pre-surgery Covid swab.

    Really sick of it now.

    Same problem as on my Manor? Staff shortagesor bed shortages (which actually are a staffing rather than furniture issue).
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,471
    edited September 25
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    Its not her accent - that is fine and is authentic . Its the play building on the accent that is a little grating - the use of the word "quid" repeatably for instance rather than pounds - Northerners generaly are as respectful as anyone else to using proper English in the right settings so its comes across that she assumes that to represent notherners she needs to use simple slang. A bit like when people try to connect with the black community they assume they all all rappers.In short she is trying too hard when actually she does not need to try at all (to look authentic)
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,569
    moonshine said:

    On the Greens. Were I the outstanding political talent of the generation, the new Blair, I would be co-opting the Green Party rather than Labour.

    They need a Clause 4 moment, namely making a break with hair shirt wearing, the public nuisance and the condescension. And to make a bold pact with big business and underline the financial upside of going green. Become a realistic alternative to right leaning under 50 workers just as much as Momentum. Tricky balance and I don’t see the outstanding talent on the horizon to do it.

    But they are in the middle of *enacting* a Clause 4, not repealing one, with the gender nonsense which is whet the leadership election is all about.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,124
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    Listenin’ to her this mornin’ was interestin’. Snobbish point? Maybe. Thatcher took voice lessons to improve her chances, I wonder if Rayner might consider it, or if she feels the way she speaks is part of who she is?
    I think that it is part of who she is and she won't change it, any more than she would change her dress sense. She is a bit of a rarity in the Labour Party, a conviction politician with a plan.
    I would love to agree; Angela Rayner has really good qualities. Her interview on R4 Today just now was a good display of this. But there are two difficulties when looking at electability and image at GE or next leader time.

    Her simple clarity and conviction are great. But this makes it all the more obvious, and toe curling, when, as this morning, she goes into evasion mode.

    And it is obvious that she wants to answer, with conviction, simplicity and clarity, every single question except the ones the interviewer, and listener, want her to answer. The top flight political geniuses hide this better.

    A more general Labour difficulty; by this point Blair could answer policy questions with: I have a better one than the Tories and here it is. Labour is not anywhere close yet to that position.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805

    Foxy said:

    NEW: Keir Starmer has abandoned his controversial electoral college reforms overnight.

    A spokesman says he will still bring other measures to "better connect us with working people and re-orient us toward the voters who can take us to power".

    Another source texts: "It's dead"


    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1441655417378062336?s=20

    But Angela Rayner has plans, and ones that could go down very well with the Brexity workers. She is one canny politician. Never mistake lack of formal education with lack of intelligence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner
    She’s just came across well on R4 - sticks to her line without sounding hectoring or defensive. She is also one of the few Labour leading lights who seemed to “get it” in Sebastian Payne’s “Broken Heartlands”.
    She is on home turf here as a Trade Union negotiator.

    She is getting more savvy with the mainstream media, but it would be interesting to see how she does with issues outside her direct experience. How well she listens to advice, and who she listens to.

    The most verkrampt Corbynisters would snipe at her, but the more mainstream ones would back her, I think, and she could keep the Centrists on board. She has shown an ability to steer clear of pointless factionalism under both Corbyn and Starmer.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,244

    Just had surgery cancelled for the 2nd time. Only found out about it when I went for the pre-surgery Covid swab.

    Really sick of it now.

    Sorry to hear. My GP is still closed.

    As an aside the administration side needs improvement as well. They wasted your time.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,651

    Just had surgery cancelled for the 2nd time. Only found out about it when I went for the pre-surgery Covid swab.

    Really sick of it now.

    Sorry to hear that. Hope it gets resolved soon.

    Husband got called in to ENT yesterday morning. Consultant wants to give him a barium meal as thinks there may be something else going on with his throat. So the worry scale has been turned up a notch again. Still, at least the hospital seems to be working a bit more effectively now.

    It all seems a bit hit and miss. A friend has been in Preston Hospital with very serious car crash injuries and it has taken them three weeks to discover that one of his legs has been fractured in several places. Barrow Hospital where he was first taken completely missed some life-threatening internal bleeding hence the transfer.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    moonshine said:

    On the Greens. Were I the outstanding political talent of the generation, the new Blair, I would be co-opting the Green Party rather than Labour.

    They need a Clause 4 moment, namely making a break with hair shirt wearing, the public nuisance and the condescension. And to make a bold pact with big business and underline the financial upside of going green. Become a realistic alternative to right leaning under 50 workers just as much as Momentum. Tricky balance and I don’t see the outstanding talent on the horizon to do it.

    Boris is already there. That's what the Kermit joke was about. Kermit sang it's not easy being green but Boris says he was wrong. It is easy. And profitable. And creates new opportunities.

    I do agree that a Green party who focused much more on how to do things in a more sustainable way would be a lot more attractive than one that just seems to want to stop everything.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,489
    Cyclefree said:

    'Bodies with vaginas'. The word you're looking for is 'women'.

    https://twitter.com/JournoStephen/status/1441478999033593861?s=20

    In "The Lancet" ffs.....

    Why are you surprised? It's the magazine that supported Andrew Wakefield.

    Interestingly, when it wrote about prostate cancer, only 4 days ago, or to the effect of Covid on men's health, it referred to men. Not one of their body parts. But it is apparently ok for a medical magazine to describe women as little more than holes.
    Someone suggested not entirely seriously "chicks without dicks" might be an alternative....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,569

    'Bodies with vaginas'. The word you're looking for is 'women'.

    https://twitter.com/JournoStephen/status/1441478999033593861?s=20

    In "The Lancet" ffs.....

    If you liked that, you're gonna love

    "Most people with a penis will have an occasional episode of being unable to get and keep an erection."

    https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/mens-health/why-can-i-not-get-and-keep-an-erection/

    Note unmodernised url.

    For administrative reasons I am unable to enter into correspondence as to how I encountered this page.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,244

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Not sure how the government is to blame for panic buying.

    I get that people want to fill up because they might not be able to tomorrow, but what I don’t get is the queuing. Unless you absolutely need to fill up now, why bother?
    Do you think Nadine (minister in this government for whatever bollox she’s minister for) has made the fuel supply problem & associated panic better or worse with this tweet?

    https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1441463208603176965?s=21
    Let’s think about this logically:

    - it’s on Twitter
    - irrelevant minor politician*
    - it’s on Twitter
    - She doesn’t have many followers
    - It’s on Twitter

    I’m going with “no impact”

    * I know she’s in the cabinet, but still…
    *
    I believe several ministers have been tweeting the no fuel shortage line. Q is, if there’s no impact why are they doing it? Keeps the useless fcukers occupied I suppose.
    The bubble used Twitter so it shows they are in the flow to their media mates and other politicians. I was interpreting your original post as “real world impact”
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,949
    F1: F2 race delayed to allow (if possible) third practice to go ahead. But will it?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,225
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    AlistairM said:

    FPT

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    The other thing I have noticed from the last few days in and out of central London is a big move back to the office, led by young people who are DONE with WFH

    General opinion: "WFH was fun for a while, but it's lonely, humourless and boring, and you don't meet any new friends or lovers"

    They'd quite like the option of a day or two at home a week, but they are now keen to resume normal working life, despite the commute

    I have wfh for years and, when I used to go into the city to meet people, I must admit it made me feel like I’d been missing out. Doesn’t matter now as a happily almost married man, but if I were 20 years younger and single, it would be no fun
    Quite. If you're 23 or 27 and single and living in outer London who the F wants to stay at home all week?! Where's the fun in traipsing to the local Aldi for a sandwich? Then home again

    38 or 45 with kids, spouse and a garden, entirely different, but even then some will want the escape of the office, city life, bars and restaurants, cool shops and a cheeky lunch

    I spoke to a WeWork executive tonight (I had a sociable evening) and he said the attitude for them has entirely changed, WFH is not gonna last, on the scale we anticipated, because those who don't go in to the office will miss out on those chance meetings/opportunities/promotions

    Those who go in will simply appear keener, and develop helpful human relationships, and they will get ahead. It is so much easier to sack someone you have never actually met. It is so much easier to promote someone you have actually met who has made you laugh, or told you some decent gossip. Someone you LIKE, because you've known them, touched them, had a drink with them. We are social animals

    There will be more flexibility re commuting, but this person (whose very job depends on predicting work/life patterns) thinks WFH will wither, certainly for young people

    Yes, tend to agree. I worked in London most of 94-09 and was single for a lot of it, so done my bit and don’t mind the quieter life now.
    Also, how many young fathers really want to stay home 24/7 with a squalling brat or two? How many see the office as a blissful escape from the utter tedium of early parenting?

    A lot. Not a happy fact. But a lot

    I have 3 kids aged 12, 8 and 3. I have spent the last 18 months WFH included a job change a year ago. I have not met anyone from work face to face in that time.

    What I find the hardest is the instant switch between work and kids with no break. The moment I get the last kid off in the morning it is the few minutes back home and then straight to work. Then at the end of the day you close your laptop screen and straight into kids meals, activities etc. There is no time at all to yourself when not working. I am quite exhausted by it and there isn't much end in sight for me. My role is European and until I can travel properly again then things won't change.

    I would like to see some work colleagues again in the flesh but wouldn't ever want to go back to being in 4 or 5 days/week. I completely understand it being different for the young workers. What will be interesting is how it is balanced between the (older) management wanting to be at home a few days each week and the youngsters who are in most days.
    I have wfh'd for the last 4 years and have a young family. In an ideal world I would still prefer working in the office with occasional home working. I also dislike the 'instant switch'. Even building a garden office didn't really overcome the problem, my son still hovers around. It is nice, but I preferred the clear separation that existed before.

    I have really enjoyed the end of lockdown and actually meeting people again for work, shaking hands etc.

    The problem with working in the office is really dead time commuting time, at one point in my career I was commuting for 4 hours a day (Although that is something peculiar to the south east). Ideally a healthy commute is a 20 minute walk, something like that. I've never successfully built that in to my wfh routine.
    Roddy Dunlop QC put it best. It is the difference between working from home and living in the office.

    I managed this well in the first lockdown but have found it increasingly difficult and have tried to find reasons. Reading both your posts explains it well. Its that over time the barriers between working and being at home gradually dissolve so you never feel that you are properly at work or completely able to relax. I had been looking at the garden shed idea so I am disappointed you have found that hasn't worked either.

    Over the last 2 weeks I have been out in court every day prosecuting. It has been a psychological relief. I am really not sure what the long term solution is going to be.
    Husband has been hybrid working for years, as have many in his chambers. The garden office does work provided you are very disciplined about keeping the children out of it. But - like many others - he also made time to go to work-social events and to go and meet people as often as he could when he wasn't at a hearing precisely in order to avoid the loneliness factor etc.

    I found working from home very much harder when I had a regular office job and rarely did it - partly because the nature of the job meant it was not practical and partly because I hated feeling that home was not separate from work. I enjoyed my commute because it was one of the few times I had entirely to myself when I could read or watch something on iPlayer and it helped mark a break between work and home.

    It is different since becoming self-employed but the children are grown up so there are not the same pressures. It will be interesting to see how this new project works out from that perspective. Some face to face time will be needed but many of the people I will need to interact with are also working from home too. But since I will not be an employee and there is an end date to it, it is different to being an employee trying to climb the corporate ladder. Permanent WFH is hard I think for those starting out.
    My daughter started working for a public sector body last October so she will soon have been there a year but she is yet to have a day working in the office (she did go in for some filming of a promotional video). She has met her work colleagues for drinks once but otherwise knows them through an online social chat that they have each morning. It has been incredibly hard for her.

    She is a much better people person than me but this has upsides and downsides. On the one hand she has made the screen chat work to a certain extent and has built relationships. On the other she misses the social interaction even more than I would. She really wants to be in the Office and to build a social life around her new friends. It feels as if her life is on hold in some respects.
    My son has just started his first job; four days WFH, one in the office at the moment. He’s way more focused than I am, and it works for him for now, FWIW.
    I suspect office/home of 4/1 or 3/2 will become standard after the pandemic is fully over.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,569
    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Off topic, petrol update. Just had calls from my other half, in tears initially, trying to find petrol. She set off at 7am this morning to go to an event, 50 miles away, and needed petrol. The first 6 petrol stations were no good - 2 closed, 4 with horrendous queues. At 7.30, she was about to give up and come home. I directed her to a nearby Asda - bit of a queue, but no problem at all, so she's happy now and on her way. But astonishing that so many people decided to go to fill up their cars so early on a Saturday morning.

    Conclusions:
    a) there is no petrol shortage
    b) there is panic buying ('fuelled' by the media, BP/Shell, and the government)
    c) the great British public (some of them) are bonkers.

    Not sure how the government is to blame for panic buying.

    I get that people want to fill up because they might not be able to tomorrow, but what I don’t get is the queuing. Unless you absolutely need to fill up now, why bother?
    Because the perceived risk there may be no petrol tomorrow
    Or the queues will be longer tomorrow. It's what is rational for individuals vs what would be rational if individuals cooperated. It is a classic instance of

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    Cyclefree said:

    Just had surgery cancelled for the 2nd time. Only found out about it when I went for the pre-surgery Covid swab.

    Really sick of it now.

    Sorry to hear that. Hope it gets resolved soon.

    Husband got called in to ENT yesterday morning. Consultant wants to give him a barium meal as thinks there may be something else going on with his throat. So the worry scale has been turned up a notch again. Still, at least the hospital seems to be working a bit more effectively now.

    Sounds wise to look into it further, it sounds a rather minor insult to set off so severe symptoms. Best wishes to Mr @Cyclefree
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,124
    edited September 25

    DavidL said:

    On topic, and thanks for the header, there was an interesting discussion on R5 yesterday. They had the standard right wing think tank person and someone from the Guardian to represent the leftish point of view (I sometimes struggle to decide if Labour or the Guardian is actually representing leftish views in this country).

    What was interesting was that the Guardian writer was far more enthusiastic about Boris's speech in the UN (apart from the Kermit joke) than the think tank chap. She acknowledged that when Boris put his enthusiasm behind something he could be genuinely influential and get things done. Of course this was all laced with comments about him having the concentration span of a goldfish and his inclination to move on all too rapidly to his next enthusiasm but she emphasised that right now he was in the right place and "we should all be rowing in behind him" on this.

    Whether you agree with this or not it seems to me that this is the quintessential problem for the Greens: are they a pressure group trying to influence government policy or are they a real political party? I think that they are more effective as the former and they clearly have influenced the national discussion. Voting green is not a wasted vote in this scenario, not at all. It is an indication that the mainstream politicians should pay attention.

    It is also an indication of the problem for Starmer. Someone who is ideologically promiscuous as Boris (is ideologically really needed) will have no problem in seizing an agenda like this, even if it does not fit with traditional emphasis on the economy and business of Tories such as think tank guy. Creating a distinctive position that might seize the imagination of the public is going to be very difficult for Starmer.

    I agree with all that, but it could be a problem for Boris as well. Over on Conservative Home, there is constant moaning about all the "green crap" that the government is going along with. More Conservatives than Labourites do not support the green agenda in the slightest, and some may turn on Boris.
    The anti-Green brigade have a couple of interesting points to make, which over time will become collectively more important.

    Broadly they are:

    The science may be wrong
    The science may be right but the benefits may be much greater than believed
    The solution to problems since 1800 have been more not less management and technology; this one is the same

    and the killer, not sufficiently appreciated yet:

    If the forecasts are correct it is going to happen anyway, with the maximum difference being + or - a few years. After all the hype of the last few decades, more CO2 goes into the air this year than ever before. It is obvious that this will not stop soon enough.

    BTW it is obvious from the lifestyle of elites, political and other, that they do not believe their own rhetoric.

  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,063
    I think the current situation is a reminder of how interconnected modern society is and how dependent on fossil fuels and not just for direct energy provision. Highly impractical policies like current government plans for net zero and utterly insane plans as proposed by the Greens and utterly insane squared plans proposed by Extinction Rebellion will crash against reality and I don't know what the political implications are.
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