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Two new VI voting polls out today adding to the confusion – politicalbetting.com

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  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,833
    edited August 2021
    So, today was the second most deadly attack on US troops in the entirety of the Afgan campaign. I have no words for how much I desire this to be Biden's legacy. An America-only coward who gave the enemies of the West their biggest ever victory.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ. Get him off the stage

    He looks so utterly lost and I just cannot see how he recovers from this humiliation
    It is pitiable
  • HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    I think like JJ my problem with that question would be that I don't identify with any mainstream (or even lunatic fringe) political affiliation.

    But I take PB in all its glorious diversity as my political family so yes there are a number of positions I have stated in the past which, whilst not exactly embarrassing, I generally avoid discussing as they get me into trouble with people on here I like.

    They include:

    - Abolition of whipping in Parliament. Reducing the power of parties to almost zero.
    - Complete freedom of movement and settlement in and out of the country for anyone who wants except for reasons of security/health/crime. By which I mean if you are a non terrorist, non criminal, non infectious person then the state should not be allowed to stop you coming to the UK to live work or anything else within the law.
    - In complete contradiction to what I have just said, a radical reduction in the UK population and stopping all new house building. (I fully recognise these two items - freedom of movement and stopping house building are mutually exclusive)
    - Scepticism of catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming. The reason I don't bang on about this one these days is because I actually like the solutions without agreeing with the problem so it seems petty to argue about it. I do however fear that if I turn out to be right then the damage done to people's faith in science will be truly catastrophic)
    - A desire for the human race to be reduced to perhaps 10% of its current number. But at the same time an abhorrence and rejection of any of the possible ways in which this might happen. Another of those absolute contradictions.
    - A belief that the 'Growth' model of Western economies is fundamentally flawed and should be replaced but without any idea of what could or should replace it.

    Also and finally, the belief that Bing Crosby was perhaps the greatest singer of all time. But I realise some things truly are beyond the pale and can never be discussed in polite society.


    Your second position would of course lead to a surge in African and South Asian migration to the UK
    Indeed. But were it not for the contradiction with my my third position - of wanting to reduce the UK population, I would have no issue with that. Obviously those two positions are mutually exclusive but when I stated that second position I did not have "as long as they are white Europeans" as a caveat. I would apply that freedom to anyone no matter where they came from.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,233
    edited August 2021
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    Plenty!

    1. Wishing to see the extinction of humankind
    2. Supporting Brexit
    3. Thinking that someone with a cock and balls is a man
    4. Being anti-abortion

    That's enough for now.
    Is anyone actually pro-abortion?

    I would have thought most of its supporters regard its legal status as a necessary evil.
    Define 'necessary'.

    My problem is that the vast majority of terminations are not necessary.
    Why is it your problem? Surely it is women's problem, and it is they who should decide what's 'necessary'.
    But that's clearly not the case. We have laws for instance around for how many weeks termination is permissable and for what reason, so even if an individual woman felt it was necessary at X weeks it isn't up to that woman alone, and we have no means of passing a law on the basis of what women alone, as a collective, think about what the limits should be, if there should be any limits, or it not be permitted at all.

    Given the existence of the law setting the current extent and limitations, people of any gender are surely able to debate where they think the extent and limitations should apply. The views of women would presumably be of particular relevance to many in determining that, but it's not as though women have a unified view about it, nor that men can all be expected to simply delegate their opinion making on the subject.

    So while I'm happy to stay right out of it, I'd have some concerns about a 'It's a woman thing' attitude to apply, especially when laws exist or will be set on the matter, as they are on a great many things, because we don't and never decided individuals have total free rein even on matters that apply to themselves. As robert says, life isn't that simple.
    You took me a bit too literally. Obviously I meant women should choose within the law. But basically I object to the notion that there's loads of women casually choosing to have abortions; it's a serious, and often traumatic decision, not a contribution to being woke or progressive.

    Anyway, I regret contributing to the discussion. I really feel uncomfortable with a load of men (including me) pontificating on this subject with little (if any?) contribution from women.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140
    OMG
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 44,616
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    Plenty!

    1. Wishing to see the extinction of humankind
    2. Supporting Brexit
    3. Thinking that someone with a cock and balls is a man
    4. Being anti-abortion

    That's enough for now.
    Is anyone actually pro-abortion?

    I would have thought most of its supporters regard its legal status as a necessary evil.
    Define 'necessary'.

    My problem is that the vast majority of terminations are not necessary.
    I would certainly consider moving the time limit from 24 weeks to 15 or 16 weeks like most of Europe
    I don't like abortion and would set the cut off at the absolute limit of viability of the foetus. I would prefer 20 weeks but could live with 21 weeks as a foetus will never be viable at that time.

    Before then it's the mother's right to choose. Beyond then it should only be allowed where there is a clear threat to the mother's life.
    I think beyond the 12th trimester abortion should be illegal.
    12th trimester? There are only 3.
    Actually I now realise you are being sarcastic there, but I can't seem to edit posts on mobile, so the comment will have to stay
    The gag is from South Park where Cartman's mum campaigns to get the abortion limit raised. The Governor is seduced by her, and readily agrees to raise the limit to 30, thinking she means weeks, when in fact she means the 30th trimester - i.e. her ten year old son.
    In fact she had to go all the way to the President.

    I don't recall if he did think she meant weeks, as the end gag was actually she mixed up abortion when she meant adoption, which as Clinton noted was pretty different.
    Yes, that's right.

    It's been twenty years since I watched it.

    I'll have to queue it up again.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,550

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    Plenty!

    1. Wishing to see the extinction of humankind
    2. Supporting Brexit
    3. Thinking that someone with a cock and balls is a man
    4. Being anti-abortion

    That's enough for now.
    Is anyone actually pro-abortion?

    I would have thought most of its supporters regard its legal status as a necessary evil.
    Define 'necessary'.

    My problem is that the vast majority of terminations are not necessary.
    Why is it your problem? Surely it is women's problem, and it is they who should decide what's 'necessary'. It's very rare that abortion is entered into lightly.
    More of a problem for the other party involved.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,833
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ. Get him off the stage

    Someone is very glad she's in Vietnam.
    That surely has to be on purpose. No way she accidentally ended up in Vietnam as SaigonX2 happened.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,717
    edited August 2021
    So America is going to hunt down the terrorists....how.....you just pulled out of there and Taliban aren't going to let you back in.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 2,460
    Leon said:

    OMG

    This is painful.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,833
    Turns out that if Al-Q had simply rebranded to something different, like say ISIS, then Biden would consider it a victory.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 44,616

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    Plenty!

    1. Wishing to see the extinction of humankind
    2. Supporting Brexit
    3. Thinking that someone with a cock and balls is a man
    4. Being anti-abortion

    That's enough for now.
    Is anyone actually pro-abortion?

    I would have thought most of its supporters regard its legal status as a necessary evil.
    Define 'necessary'.

    My problem is that the vast majority of terminations are not necessary.
    Why is it your problem? Surely it is women's problem, and it is they who should decide what's 'necessary'. It's very rare that abortion is entered into lightly.
    More of a problem for the other party involved.
    Surely there are several other parties involved - the foetus, the doctor, and the father?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140
    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,861
    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    Plenty!

    1. Wishing to see the extinction of humankind
    2. Supporting Brexit
    3. Thinking that someone with a cock and balls is a man
    4. Being anti-abortion

    That's enough for now.
    Is anyone actually pro-abortion?

    I would have thought most of its supporters regard its legal status as a necessary evil.
    Actually, yes. There are a fair few who see it as a badge of honour and you are truly not progressive enough if you haven’t had one.
    I know quite a few people who've had abortions, some of whom are "woke". Most of them suffered enormously in choosing to terminate, and often had terrible guilt afterwards.

    I don't know anyone who has ever boasted of having had an abortion.

    There presumably are some - because you can find any kind of crazy if you look hard enough - but I'd be staggered if they were common.
    I think there is a “pre” and “post” issue here.

    Some of my acquaintances had them, went into them thinking “this is my body, I can do what I want” and then we’re traumatised afterwards as the impact hit home.

    I take the Caitlin Moran view. Either you consider an abortion like having a cup of tea (it’s not a life so what’s the big deal) or you are killing a life. No in-between stuff.
    You are definitely terminating a life. That's not a high enough bar to make it illegal on its own though.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 44,616
    Chameleon said:

    So, today was the second most deadly attack on US troops in the entirety of the Afgan campaign. I have no words for how much I desire this to be Biden's legacy. An America-only coward who gave the enemies of the West their biggest ever victory.

    Well, one hopes that his legacy will be handing over to someone more competent.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,373
    edited August 2021

    Toms said:

    Is America going to lay responsibility for todays dead servicemen at the door of the Biden White House, do we think?

    That question occurred to me. Biden (age 78, mind) seems to be getting flack for just about everything, and deserving none of it.

    Incidentally, if Blair thinks it's imbecilic to follow the agreed deadline, does he not realize that the launch of a single rocket from the shoulder of one battle-hardened Taliban can bring down a plane with 500 people aboard?

    Then too there are the lunatic suicide bombers.
    He does deserve some of it. The tactics of the withdrawal process have been astonishingly inept.
    Yes. Whatever the executive decisions by Biden, Johnson or Raab, the actual operational decisions have been by the US and UK military. The pisspoor implementation is all on them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140
    Still, that's cheered me up

    Things could be worse for the UK. We could be led by Joe Biden
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,411
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    Simply what Trump began, but he dressed it up as a global leadership. Now his followers will lap up the illusion.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,040
    If anyone thought that Boris Johnson travelling to Kabul to miss a vote on Heathrow was mad, Kamala Harris turning up in Saigon just as Kabul falls is poetry in motion.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    Plenty!

    1. Wishing to see the extinction of humankind
    2. Supporting Brexit
    3. Thinking that someone with a cock and balls is a man
    4. Being anti-abortion

    That's enough for now.
    Is anyone actually pro-abortion?

    I would have thought most of its supporters regard its legal status as a necessary evil.
    Actually, yes. There are a fair few who see it as a badge of honour and you are truly not progressive enough if you haven’t had one.
    I know quite a few people who've had abortions, some of whom are "woke". Most of them suffered enormously in choosing to terminate, and often had terrible guilt afterwards.

    I don't know anyone who has ever boasted of having had an abortion.

    There presumably are some - because you can find any kind of crazy if you look hard enough - but I'd be staggered if they were common.
    I think there is a “pre” and “post” issue here.

    Some of my acquaintances had them, went into them thinking “this is my body, I can do what I want” and then we’re traumatised afterwards as the impact hit home.

    I take the Caitlin Moran view. Either you consider an abortion like having a cup of tea (it’s not a life so what’s the big deal) or you are killing a life. No in-between stuff.
    Really?

    I mean I wish that life was that simple. But it's not. There are people in terrible relationships. There are people who have drug or alcohol issues. There are people who didn't know the facts of life.

    And, of course, there are people who regard abortion as just another form of contraception.

    You will never get rid of abortion. When it was illegal, people would still have them and then juries would not convict either mothers or "back street practioners". People died, both mothers and unborn children.

    What's your goal?

    If it's to minimise the number of terminations, the answer is simple: increase spending on sex education, increase the availability of contraceptives, and make adoption as easy as possible.

    Indeed, the countries with the lowest levels of abortion do exactly that. Portugal has an abortion rate less than one tenth that of the US, and probably below what the US's illegal abortion rate was pre-Roe vs Wade.
    I’d agree. Increase sex education and levels of contraception.

    However, as you said, there are some people who see abortion as a form of contraception. That is not an attitude to be encouraged, especially when there are plenty of alternatives.

    Not sure where the uncertainty is with my thinking. Either you believe the foetus is a collection of cells with no separate entity and therefore it is a woman’s right to choose, or you believe it is a separate entity. This whole “well, it might be at 8 weeks but is at 12 weeks etc” is just philosophical mishmash. Nobody can say 100pc when a foetus feels pain, or is in distress etc.

    As for the end game, it would be to minimise abortions as much as possible without restricting the right to choose. It goes back to the point before - increase contraception / sex education.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 51,342
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    My wife and I have just said we cannot remember any US President so publicly and totally humiliated in the eyes of the world

  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,833
    edited August 2021
    It's amazing how little the media have made of Biden handing over a list of Afghanis approved for evacuation due to their services to the US administration to the Taliban. Gave them not only a great hitlist, but drove the people on that hitlist into the Taliban's hands via the airport.

    I've loved the shift towards UK strategic autonomy recently, it is clear that the US is no longer an outward-looking ally.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,717
    edited August 2021
    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,411
    edited August 2021

    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    My wife and I have just said we cannot remember any US President so publicly and totally humiliated in the eyes of the world

    I don't want to be rude, BigG, but you may have short memories, in that case.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140

    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    Simply what Trump began, but he dressed it up as a global leadership. Now his followers will lap up the illusion.
    No, Biden has taken a typically chaotic, dysfunctional Trump policy decision, and turned it into something even worse.

    America is understanding what "two really shit presidents in a row" actually means. It's like getting two terrible kings in a row, for a medieval European power
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,040

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    It’s bad to say it, but a mad Trump would be better right now in dealing with the Taliban.
  • Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    My wife and I have just said we cannot remember any US President so publicly and totally humiliated in the eyes of the world

    I don't what to be rude, BigG, but you may have short memories, in that case.
    My wife is 80
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,218

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    Plenty!

    1. Wishing to see the extinction of humankind
    2. Supporting Brexit
    3. Thinking that someone with a cock and balls is a man
    4. Being anti-abortion

    That's enough for now.
    Is anyone actually pro-abortion?

    I would have thought most of its supporters regard its legal status as a necessary evil.
    I'm pro women's right to choose. I don't think anybody suggests abortion should be obligatory.
    Yes, and a harrowing choice it is too in most cases.

    If abortion is forbidden or restricted so much as to be effectively forbidden, you are reducing the status of women in a very fundamental way. They are no longer in charge of their own bodies.

    This issue goes way beyond the woke wars. It's on another level entirely. You CANNOT be on the left and be wanting to ban abortion. Not for me. Not in 2021.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032
    Chameleon said:

    It's amazing how little the media have made of Biden handing over a list of Afghanis approved for evacuation due to their services to the US administration to the Taliban. Gave them not only a great hitlist, but drove the people on that hitlist into the Taliban's hands via the airport.

    I've loved the shift towards UK strategic autonomy recently, it is clear that the US is no longer an outward-looking ally.

    The US media - bar Fox, the WSJ and New York Post (all Murdoch controlled) plus a few fringe outlets - are overwhelmingly pro-Democrat. To them, being woke and being able to speak French is far more important than more mundane matters such as global security.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,717
    edited August 2021
    Chameleon said:

    It's amazing how little the media have made of Biden handing over a list of Afghanis approved for evacuation due to their services to the US administration to the Taliban. Gave them not only a great hitlist, but drove the people on that hitlist into the Taliban's hands via the airport.

    I've loved the shift towards UK strategic autonomy recently, it is clear that the US is no longer an outward-looking ally.

    Much of the US media is heavily conflicted. They were desperate to get rid of Trump and worried about the nuttier elements of the GOP.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,015
    Might even be before 2025

    Liam Pencil
    @Hezbolsonaro
    2025, America is back in Afghanistan, bombing the newly established Islamic State at the behest of the embattled Taliban government.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140

    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    My wife and I have just said we cannot remember any US President so publicly and totally humiliated in the eyes of the world

    I don't want to be rude, BigG, but you may have short memories, in that case.
    Go on then, name one

    Trump was insane and malignant, but he was not publicly humiliated like this. Neither Nixon nor Ford was ever humiliated by a terrible foreign policy defeat unfolding over days. Carter's hostage crisis was tiny compared to this
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,833
    edited August 2021
    Foxy said:

    Toms said:

    Is America going to lay responsibility for todays dead servicemen at the door of the Biden White House, do we think?

    That question occurred to me. Biden (age 78, mind) seems to be getting flack for just about everything, and deserving none of it.

    Incidentally, if Blair thinks it's imbecilic to follow the agreed deadline, does he not realize that the launch of a single rocket from the shoulder of one battle-hardened Taliban can bring down a plane with 500 people aboard?

    Then too there are the lunatic suicide bombers.
    He does deserve some of it. The tactics of the withdrawal process have been astonishingly inept.
    Yes. Whatever the executive decisions by Biden, Johnson or Raab, the actual operational decisions have been by the US and UK military. The pisspoor implementation is all on them.
    In all fairness to the UK, we've sadly have absolutely zero say. We weren't told when the US were going to flee from Bagram. The US were telling us that there was no issue sticking to the timetable, right up until the Taliban rocked up to Kabul in American bought armour. We also were the only nation who seemingly tried to get a coalition together to replace the cowardly Americans. Raab is a useless twat, but we were completely powerless, which is almost a more worrying conclusion. The UK-French axis once again is potentially crucial but has been massively neglected.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,411
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    Simply what Trump began, but he dressed it up as a global leadership. Now his followers will lap up the illusion.
    No, Biden has taken a typically chaotic, dysfunctional Trump policy decision, and turned it into something even worse.

    America is understanding what "two really shit presidents in a row" actually means. It's like getting two terrible kings in a row, for a medieval European power
    I can't really see the grounds for thinking Biden is worse, or certainly qualitatively different on this. Trump signed up to a chaotic, breakneck withdrawal deal, without the Taliban having fulfilled their parts of the bargain, and Biden said OK, let's do that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,702
    edited August 2021

    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    Simply what Trump began, but he dressed it up as a global leadership. Now his followers will lap up the illusion.
    Trump may have been an idiot and was not much better in promoting freedom and liberty abroad than Biden-Harris but he could also play the strongman and Xi and Putin were always a bit wary of what he might do.

    Biden's speech tonight was pitiful, having withdrawn from Kabul he let the Taliban and jihadi terrorism back in and was reduced to tears tonight after the tragic death of 12 US soldiers in a chaotic evacuation he has left little time to complete. Xi and Putin do not fear him at all, in fact tonight they probably pity him when they are not laughing at him. Sadly he is a weak old man.

    Long gone at the moment are the days when FDR or Ike or JFK or Reagan projected a strong US abroad that other nations could not ignore and which truly led the free world.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032
    Sandpit said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    It’s bad to say it, but a mad Trump would be better right now in dealing with the Taliban.
    Spot on. As the old prison saying goes “better mad than bad”. The Taliban wouldn’t have tried this sh1t if Trump was in power for fear of what he would do. They don’t fear Biden.

    Ps if the Taliban don’t fear Biden, you can bet neither do Xi or Putin. Which raises the risk that China tries something with Taiwan and / or Russia with the Ukraine and / or the Baltic’s.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,218
    Chameleon said:

    It's amazing how little the media have made of Biden handing over a list of Afghanis approved for evacuation due to their services to the US administration to the Taliban. Gave them not only a great hitlist, but drove the people on that hitlist into the Taliban's hands via the airport.

    I've loved the shift towards UK strategic autonomy recently, it is clear that the US is no longer an outward-looking ally.

    UK strategic autonomy? You're seeing things.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,961

    rcs1000 said:
    The mindset of the American outback - an attempt to gain meaning from emptiness.

    Does the USA have an equivalent word to the Australian outback ?

    There's heartland but that suggests more of a centre of activity than the sparsity of much of rural USA.
    "The belief that God controls everything that happens in the world is a core tenet of evangelicalism"

    Seems this may the key. It is God's Will that I die on ventilation at the ICU.

    How can you argue against that?
    Easy:

    God has sent this plague to scourge the sins of the world, but He in His infinite wisdom and mercy has also sent us the blessing of Pfizer, Inc and Moderna, Inc, so that we the righteous may be spared.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,702
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    Still, that's cheered me up

    Things could be worse for the UK. We could be led by Joe Biden

    Say what you like about Boris, he is a strong leader on the world stage, almost as much as Thatcher and Blair were, unlike Biden.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,015
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    Simply what Trump began, but he dressed it up as a global leadership. Now his followers will lap up the illusion.
    Trump may have been an idiot and was not much better in promoting freedom and liberty abroad than Biden-Harris but he could also play the strongman and Xi and Putin were always a bit wary of what he might do.

    Biden's speech was pitiful, having withdrawn from Kabul he let the Taliban and jihadi terrorism back in and was reduced to tears tonight after the tragic death of 12 US soldiers in a chaotic evacuation he has left little time to complete. Xi and Putin do not fear him at all. Sadly he is a weak old man.

    Long gone at the moment are the days when FDR or Ike or JFK or Reagan projected a strong US abroad that other nations could not ignore and which truly led the free world.
    What 'strong US abroad' was FDR projecting before Pearl Harbor and Germany declared war on them?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,402
    edited August 2021
    MrEd said:

    Sandpit said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    It’s bad to say it, but a mad Trump would be better right now in dealing with the Taliban.
    Spot on. As the old prison saying goes “better mad than bad”. The Taliban wouldn’t have tried this sh1t if Trump was in power for fear of what he would do. They don’t fear Biden.

    Ps if the Taliban don’t fear Biden, you can bet neither do Xi or Putin. Which raises the risk that China tries something with Taiwan and / or Russia with the Ukraine and / or the Baltic’s.
    The thing is you can't expect a country that has so many problems at home to keep intervening in foreign affairs. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died from opioid overdoses over the last 20 years or so for instance.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,833
    How did the USA get into the position of having a choice between a psychopathic man-child and a senile coward as President.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,411
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    Simply what Trump began, but he dressed it up as a global leadership. Now his followers will lap up the illusion.
    Trump may have been an idiot and was not much better in promoting freedom and liberty abroad than Biden-Harris but he could also play the strongman and Xi and Putin were always a bit wary of what he might do.

    Biden's speech was pitiful, having withdrawn from Kabul he let the Taliban and jihadi terrorism back in and was reduced to tears tonight after the tragic death of 12 US soldiers in a chaotic evacuation he has left little time to complete. Xi and Putin do not fear him at all, in fact tonight they probably pity him when they are not laughing at him. Sadly he is a weak old man.

    Long gone at the moment are the days when FDR or Ike or JFK or Reagan projected a strong US abroad that other nations could not ignore and which truly led the free world.
    I still wouldn't say any more or less pitiful than Trump in this particular policy area. Trump took a sort of tantrum-like, isolationist self-indulgence and dressed it up as straight-talking strongman leadership. He was not respected, as a result. The differences in this area are cosmetic.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032
    Pulpstar said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    Plenty!

    1. Wishing to see the extinction of humankind
    2. Supporting Brexit
    3. Thinking that someone with a cock and balls is a man
    4. Being anti-abortion

    That's enough for now.
    Is anyone actually pro-abortion?

    I would have thought most of its supporters regard its legal status as a necessary evil.
    Actually, yes. There are a fair few who see it as a badge of honour and you are truly not progressive enough if you haven’t had one.
    I know quite a few people who've had abortions, some of whom are "woke". Most of them suffered enormously in choosing to terminate, and often had terrible guilt afterwards.

    I don't know anyone who has ever boasted of having had an abortion.

    There presumably are some - because you can find any kind of crazy if you look hard enough - but I'd be staggered if they were common.
    I think there is a “pre” and “post” issue here.

    Some of my acquaintances had them, went into them thinking “this is my body, I can do what I want” and then we’re traumatised afterwards as the impact hit home.

    I take the Caitlin Moran view. Either you consider an abortion like having a cup of tea (it’s not a life so what’s the big deal) or you are killing a life. No in-between stuff.
    You are definitely terminating a life. That's not a high enough bar to make it illegal on its own though.
    Agree, I believe in a woman’s right to choose.

    However, I find it hard to grasp the argument that, in this day and age, you can’t get contraception, know what could happen if you have unprotected sex etc and that plenty of women fall into that category.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,534

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    Indeed. They could have drawn two names at random like ancient Athens and not have done worse.
    Remarkably I'd put money on Trump v Biden 2 in three and a bit years.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,717
    edited August 2021
    Biden when challenged on anything, even gently, he turns into angry old man and makes even less sense....LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION...INSERT NONSENSE THAT MAKES NO SENSE...journalist looks confused....LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION...RAISE YOUR HANDS....
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,833
    kinabalu said:

    Chameleon said:

    It's amazing how little the media have made of Biden handing over a list of Afghanis approved for evacuation due to their services to the US administration to the Taliban. Gave them not only a great hitlist, but drove the people on that hitlist into the Taliban's hands via the airport.

    I've loved the shift towards UK strategic autonomy recently, it is clear that the US is no longer an outward-looking ally.

    UK strategic autonomy? You're seeing things.
    Given how much we've abandoned the concept it'll take time to rebuilt it, but this is a wakeup call. Given recent developments we'll be well positioned to build a force that can ally with any of Europe, US, and the Far East (incl. Aus/Japan) for military procedures.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 34,434
    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,717
    edited August 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    Indeed. They could have drawn two names at random like ancient Athens and not have done worse.
    Remarkably I'd put money on Trump v Biden 2 in three and a bit years.
    300m people, both parties surely must engineer a situation where they get two better candidates....both must see if its Trump vs Biden, the US as a super power is in real danger of being finished.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032
    Andy_JS said:

    MrEd said:

    Sandpit said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    It’s bad to say it, but a mad Trump would be better right now in dealing with the Taliban.
    Spot on. As the old prison saying goes “better mad than bad”. The Taliban wouldn’t have tried this sh1t if Trump was in power for fear of what he would do. They don’t fear Biden.

    Ps if the Taliban don’t fear Biden, you can bet neither do Xi or Putin. Which raises the risk that China tries something with Taiwan and / or Russia with the Ukraine and / or the Baltic’s.
    The thing is you can't expect a country that has so many problems at home to keep intervening in foreign affairs. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died from opioid overdoses over the last 20 years or so for instance.
    The US really doesn’t have much choice. If it retreats into a Fortress America attitude, then what happens if China invades Taiwan and controls semiconductor supplies, the EU feels the need to kowtow to Russia etc.

    The sad fact is that the States could handle both the domestic issues it has and it’s foreign commitments if their politicians didn’t have to spend so much time and effort dealing with all the woke sh1t.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 893
    edited August 2021
    I did say at the start of this that whilst the Saigon analogy may have been understandable, Tehran 1980 might have been more apt.

    Doesnt seem far off target.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140
    On the upside, a friend writing about hotels for US media just gave me a fab dinner here


    https://www.thehari.com/

    I strongly recommend. Oysters and steak. Go for the obvious. Really well done

    A fascinating clientele. Mainly young kids from UAE, Saudi, Jordan etc, tentatively sipping cocktails and gin. Plus a few elderly Yanks
  • TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    I just cannot understand how you can be so dismissive of an outrage that has killed and maimed many men, women and children who had the right to be protected
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,861

    Might even be before 2025

    Liam Pencil
    @Hezbolsonaro
    2025, America is back in Afghanistan, bombing the newly established Islamic State at the behest of the embattled Taliban government.

    If there's one sure bet in life it's that the 🇺🇸 will be back to delivering foreign policy from 30,000 feet at some point.
  • dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Still, that's cheered me up

    Things could be worse for the UK. We could be led by Joe Biden

    Say what you like about Boris, he is a strong leader on the world stage, almost as much as Thatcher and Blair were, unlike Biden.

    Ha ha.
    Good one.
    It did not take long!!!!!!
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,935
    Everyone on here is obsessed with the idea of Trump keeling over before 2024 but seeing that speech from Biden... Dude needs to be kindly told it's ok to step down before the job finishes him off.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,702

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question for PBers. Do you have an opinion that would embarrass you in front of the mainstream of the political affiliation you identify with?

    I think like JJ my problem with that question would be that I don't identify with any mainstream (or even lunatic fringe) political affiliation.

    But I take PB in all its glorious diversity as my political family so yes there are a number of positions I have stated in the past which, whilst not exactly embarrassing, I generally avoid discussing as they get me into trouble with people on here I like.

    They include:

    - Abolition of whipping in Parliament. Reducing the power of parties to almost zero.
    - Complete freedom of movement and settlement in and out of the country for anyone who wants except for reasons of security/health/crime. By which I mean if you are a non terrorist, non criminal, non infectious person then the state should not be allowed to stop you coming to the UK to live work or anything else within the law.
    - In complete contradiction to what I have just said, a radical reduction in the UK population and stopping all new house building. (I fully recognise these two items - freedom of movement and stopping house building are mutually exclusive)
    - Scepticism of catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming. The reason I don't bang on about this one these days is because I actually like the solutions without agreeing with the problem so it seems petty to argue about it. I do however fear that if I turn out to be right then the damage done to people's faith in science will be truly catastrophic)
    - A desire for the human race to be reduced to perhaps 10% of its current number. But at the same time an abhorrence and rejection of any of the possible ways in which this might happen. Another of those absolute contradictions.
    - A belief that the 'Growth' model of Western economies is fundamentally flawed and should be replaced but without any idea of what could or should replace it.

    Also and finally, the belief that Bing Crosby was perhaps the greatest singer of all time. But I realise some things truly are beyond the pale and can never be discussed in polite society.


    Your second position would of course lead to a surge in African and South Asian migration to the UK
    Indeed. But were it not for the contradiction with my my third position - of wanting to reduce the UK population, I would have no issue with that. Obviously those two positions are mutually exclusive but when I stated that second position I did not have "as long as they are white Europeans" as a caveat. I would apply that freedom to anyone no matter where they came from.
    Yes but obviously that means we simply could not accomodate the numbers who would want to come here. People from much poorer nations than our own would come here en masse if we had open door rather than skills based immigration.

    Hence as you confirm it is totally incompatible with your third position
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,233
    Leon said:

    On the upside, a friend writing about hotels for US media just gave me a fab dinner here


    https://www.thehari.com/

    I strongly recommend. Oysters and steak. Go for the obvious. Really well done

    A fascinating clientele. Mainly young kids from UAE, Saudi, Jordan etc, tentatively sipping cocktails and gin. Plus a few elderly Yanks

    Biden was there?
  • Its really noticeable that Biden in every press conference when he gets stuck, he uses the term metastasized, and the phrase, "over the horizon capability"....neither of which the US public will really understand.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032
    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    Yes and no.

    Yes, Afghanistan matters little on the world stage and this is not the first US pullout.

    No, in that Biden’s handling of the situation sends a clear signal that the US is giving up leadership.

    As an aside, I’d be slightly more worried about an accidental global conflict now given (1) Xi / Putin will think Biden is weak and (2) Biden and / or his entourage may think they need to act rough to any provocations.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,833
    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    A lot of the women and under-30s. Rome wasn't built in a day(cade). Look at the rates of child pregnancies, mortality in childbirth, and female education in 2019 vs 2000 and there's been a massive unprecedented improvement. The population that grew up since 2001 in the cities and the north are very promising, but they just weren't given enough time. That's the true tragedy, the hard work was done, and cost and loss of life would have been relatively minimal for the next decade had the americans not surrendered and fled.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140
    Sean_F said:

    How did the USA get into the position of having a choice between a psychopathic man-child and a senile coward as President.

    "Senile coward" is ruthlessly accurate. Brutal, and true

    It may also be very unfair. Biden has come through hideous tragedies to be where he is, he is obviously a man - or was a man - of gravitas and intelligence

    However, what I see today, in front of me, is what you describe. A "senile coward". This is just so terrible for America. FFS get a president under 60 who is not mad. How hard can it be
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,218
    Chameleon said:

    So, today was the second most deadly attack on US troops in the entirety of the Afgan campaign. I have no words for how much I desire this to be Biden's legacy. An America-only coward who gave the enemies of the West their biggest ever victory.

    Heat of the moment hyperbole. Enemies of the West have committed bigger crimes than this Kabul airport bombing over the years. And the essence of the victory for the Taliban is in the ending of the long US project in Afghanistan. A project which Biden is less to blame for than most, given his consistent opposition to it.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    dixiedean said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    Indeed. They could have drawn two names at random like ancient Athens and not have done worse.
    Remarkably I'd put money on Trump v Biden 2 in three and a bit years.
    Not going to happen
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,402
    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MrEd said:

    Sandpit said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    It’s bad to say it, but a mad Trump would be better right now in dealing with the Taliban.
    Spot on. As the old prison saying goes “better mad than bad”. The Taliban wouldn’t have tried this sh1t if Trump was in power for fear of what he would do. They don’t fear Biden.

    Ps if the Taliban don’t fear Biden, you can bet neither do Xi or Putin. Which raises the risk that China tries something with Taiwan and / or Russia with the Ukraine and / or the Baltic’s.
    The thing is you can't expect a country that has so many problems at home to keep intervening in foreign affairs. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died from opioid overdoses over the last 20 years or so for instance.
    The US really doesn’t have much choice. If it retreats into a Fortress America attitude, then what happens if China invades Taiwan and controls semiconductor supplies, the EU feels the need to kowtow to Russia etc.

    The sad fact is that the States could handle both the domestic issues it has and it’s foreign commitments if their politicians didn’t have to spend so much time and effort dealing with all the woke sh1t.
    An alliance of all the Western countries might be a better idea. I know it's been tried before.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,702
    dixiedean said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    Indeed. They could have drawn two names at random like ancient Athens and not have done worse.
    Remarkably I'd put money on Trump v Biden 2 in three and a bit years.
    And after tonight's news and that Biden press conference Trump might win it next time.

    Unless the Democrats can find a younger, capable candidate like Buttigieg there may be little to stop Trump's return to the Oval Office in 2024
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,961
    edited August 2021
    Given the obvious risks, how the hell did the Dems end up with Kamala Harris as their back-up for the next gig?

    [Actually I know the answer to that. And it doesn't do them much credit...]
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 22,193

    boulay said:

    I’m presuming that when Biden is asked on Monday about the deaths today of US servicemen and fleeing Afghans he will answer “but that was four, five days ago”......

    Sadly I am expecting him to claim it is a perfect example of why they had to leave - completely ignoring the fact they have lost more American soldiers in a coupe of weeks of withdrawal than they did in the last 20 months of occupation.
    That's because they signed a deal to handover the country to the Taliban in exchange for no more attacks on US soldiers.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 34,434

    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    I just cannot understand how you can be so dismissive of an outrage that has killed and maimed many men, women and children who had the right to be protected
    We invaded the country Big G and killed hundreds of thousands of people. We are now leaving and a few more will die.

    All the pearl clutching about the exit phase is bizarre, frankly.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,833
    edited August 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Chameleon said:

    So, today was the second most deadly attack on US troops in the entirety of the Afgan campaign. I have no words for how much I desire this to be Biden's legacy. An America-only coward who gave the enemies of the West their biggest ever victory.

    Heat of the moment hyperbole. Enemies of the West have committed bigger crimes than this Kabul airport bombing over the years. And the essence of the victory for the Taliban is in the ending of the long US project in Afghanistan. A project which Biden is less to blame for than most, given his consistent opposition to it.
    I'm not referring to the airport as the Taliben et al's largest ever victory, more the proof that their guerilla warfare over two decades can work against anyone, which in turn will prove a rallying point in future, for future's barbarism.

    Being against something that was good, and then stopping it gets you even less credit than just being against something. The cost of supporting a progressive government in Afghanistan was more than worth it, and should have persisted for longer than 20 years. Ultimately a culture that suppresses so many basic human rights is not worthy of deciding their internal rules.

    The invasion and support of Afghanistan was not the issue, the US burning the foundations of the next power system is.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032
    Andy_JS said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MrEd said:

    Sandpit said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    It’s bad to say it, but a mad Trump would be better right now in dealing with the Taliban.
    Spot on. As the old prison saying goes “better mad than bad”. The Taliban wouldn’t have tried this sh1t if Trump was in power for fear of what he would do. They don’t fear Biden.

    Ps if the Taliban don’t fear Biden, you can bet neither do Xi or Putin. Which raises the risk that China tries something with Taiwan and / or Russia with the Ukraine and / or the Baltic’s.
    The thing is you can't expect a country that has so many problems at home to keep intervening in foreign affairs. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died from opioid overdoses over the last 20 years or so for instance.
    The US really doesn’t have much choice. If it retreats into a Fortress America attitude, then what happens if China invades Taiwan and controls semiconductor supplies, the EU feels the need to kowtow to Russia etc.

    The sad fact is that the States could handle both the domestic issues it has and it’s foreign commitments if their politicians didn’t have to spend so much time and effort dealing with all the woke sh1t.
    An alliance of all the Western countries might be a better idea. I know it's been tried before.
    That’s possible. A U.K.-French alliance in partnership with Australia, Japan and India (plus others) would be fairly substantial
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,861
    Trump is probably the most cautious GOP candidate on starting up foreign wars. The likes of Marco Rubio and Nikki Haley are utterly gagging to start more up.
    Trumps probably the safest GOP option if you're living in or around most of the Middle East for 2024.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,218
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    Simply what Trump began, but he dressed it up as a global leadership. Now his followers will lap up the illusion.
    Trump may have been an idiot and was not much better in promoting freedom and liberty abroad than Biden-Harris but he could also play the strongman and Xi and Putin were always a bit wary of what he might do.

    Biden's speech tonight was pitiful, having withdrawn from Kabul he let the Taliban and jihadi terrorism back in and was reduced to tears tonight after the tragic death of 12 US soldiers in a chaotic evacuation he has left little time to complete. Xi and Putin do not fear him at all, in fact tonight they probably pity him when they are not laughing at him. Sadly he is a weak old man.

    Long gone at the moment are the days when FDR or Ike or JFK or Reagan projected a strong US abroad that other nations could not ignore and which truly led the free world.
    You're analysing the world as if it's a junior school playground.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,402
    edited August 2021
    In most governmental systems, Biden would probably be facing a leadership challenge pretty soon. Sadly that option doesn't exist wrt the US president.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,717
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    How did the USA get into the position of having a choice between a psychopathic man-child and a senile coward as President.

    "Senile coward" is ruthlessly accurate. Brutal, and true

    It may also be very unfair. Biden has come through hideous tragedies to be where he is, he is obviously a man - or was a man - of gravitas and intelligence

    However, what I see today, in front of me, is what you describe. A "senile coward". This is just so terrible for America. FFS get a president under 60 who is not mad. How hard can it be
    If Trump had given these press conferences over the past week, CNN etc would be calling him senile.

    The other thing that stank of weakness, saying those bad people we will get them, at some point....powers to be feared, they don't talk about doing such things, they do them. Its like parents that talk about punishing their kids if they are naughty again, it never happens.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    Indeed. They could have drawn two names at random like ancient Athens and not have done worse.
    Remarkably I'd put money on Trump v Biden 2 in three and a bit years.
    And after tonight's news and that Biden press conference Trump might win it next time.

    Unless the Democrats can find a younger, capable candidate like Buttigieg there may be little to stop Trump's return to the Oval Office in 2024
    Trump is almost certain to run again now in 2024 - barring illness - given what is happening.

    The issue for the Democrats now is Harris. She won’t give up the opportunity of being President (and the first female one).
  • YokesYokes Posts: 893
    IS claims on the killings in Kabul refers to only one of the attacks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,702
    edited August 2021
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    This is a president emblematic of a superpower resigning from global leadership, with a hint of panicked retreat

    Simply what Trump began, but he dressed it up as a global leadership. Now his followers will lap up the illusion.
    Trump may have been an idiot and was not much better in promoting freedom and liberty abroad than Biden-Harris but he could also play the strongman and Xi and Putin were always a bit wary of what he might do.

    Biden's speech tonight was pitiful, having withdrawn from Kabul he let the Taliban and jihadi terrorism back in and was reduced to tears tonight after the tragic death of 12 US soldiers in a chaotic evacuation he has left little time to complete. Xi and Putin do not fear him at all, in fact tonight they probably pity him when they are not laughing at him. Sadly he is a weak old man.

    Long gone at the moment are the days when FDR or Ike or JFK or Reagan projected a strong US abroad that other nations could not ignore and which truly led the free world.
    You're analysing the world as if it's a junior school playground.
    Sometimes it is in some ways, you need to be strong enough to stand up to bullies on the world stage as much as the playground
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    How did the USA get into the position of having a choice between a psychopathic man-child and a senile coward as President.

    "Senile coward" is ruthlessly accurate. Brutal, and true

    It may also be very unfair. Biden has come through hideous tragedies to be where he is, he is obviously a man - or was a man - of gravitas and intelligence

    However, what I see today, in front of me, is what you describe. A "senile coward". This is just so terrible for America. FFS get a president under 60 who is not mad. How hard can it be
    If Trump had given these press conferences over the past week, CNN etc would be calling him senile.
    Yes. This last one was especially desperate. Almost desolating

    THIS is the leader of the Free World?

    We are fucked
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    How did the USA get into the position of having a choice between a psychopathic man-child and a senile coward as President.

    "Senile coward" is ruthlessly accurate. Brutal, and true

    It may also be very unfair. Biden has come through hideous tragedies to be where he is, he is obviously a man - or was a man - of gravitas and intelligence

    However, what I see today, in front of me, is what you describe. A "senile coward". This is just so terrible for America. FFS get a president under 60 who is not mad. How hard can it be
    If Trump had given these press conferences over the past week, CNN etc would be calling him senile.
    Of course they would. And we wouldn’t be hearing calls that “it’s too soon to pass judgement” etc etc.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 34,434
    MrEd said:

    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    Yes and no.

    Yes, Afghanistan matters little on the world stage and this is not the first US pullout.

    No, in that Biden’s handling of the situation sends a clear signal that the US is giving up leadership.

    As an aside, I’d be slightly more worried about an accidental global conflict now given (1) Xi / Putin will think Biden is weak and (2) Biden and / or his entourage may think they need to act rough to any provocations.
    Do we want the US to be the world's policeman or not? We hammer them if they try to be (and, pace Tony Blair, crucify those that support them) and hammer them if they "give up leadership".
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,861
    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    Indeed. They could have drawn two names at random like ancient Athens and not have done worse.
    Remarkably I'd put money on Trump v Biden 2 in three and a bit years.
    And after tonight's news and that Biden press conference Trump might win it next time.

    Unless the Democrats can find a younger, capable candidate like Buttigieg there may be little to stop Trump's return to the Oval Office in 2024
    Trump is almost certain to run again now in 2024 - barring illness - given what is happening.

    The issue for the Democrats now is Harris. She won’t give up the opportunity of being President (and the first female one).
    Harris would get completely run over by Trump; Biden is still the strongest candidate for the Dems
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,550
    My final two comments on abortion.

    Firstly, those on the pro-choice side of the debate seem to generally take a different view when that choice is influenced by gender selection.

    Secondly, I think the debate has clearly demonstrated that my views are out of line with lefty opinion. One of those areas where the broad church isn't so broad.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,702
    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    Indeed. They could have drawn two names at random like ancient Athens and not have done worse.
    Remarkably I'd put money on Trump v Biden 2 in three and a bit years.
    And after tonight's news and that Biden press conference Trump might win it next time.

    Unless the Democrats can find a younger, capable candidate like Buttigieg there may be little to stop Trump's return to the Oval Office in 2024
    Trump is almost certain to run again now in 2024 - barring illness - given what is happening.

    The issue for the Democrats now is Harris. She won’t give up the opportunity of being President (and the first female one).
    And we remember how well thinking she was entitled to be the first female President worked for Hillary against Trump
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,935
    Yokes said:

    IS claims on the killings in Kabul refers to only one of the attacks.

    Do you have much of a view on Macron's indications that he will start to wind down the military presence in the Sahel? "France First" type politics here to stay or do you think he'll reconsider after the Kabul debacle?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,140

    Sam Harris
    @SamHarrisOrg

    Publicly eating these words... syllable by syllable.


    Sam Harris
    @SamHarrisOrg
    Jan 20
    Feeling overwhelming gratitude for the adults in the room...
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,032
    TOPPING said:

    MrEd said:

    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    Yes and no.

    Yes, Afghanistan matters little on the world stage and this is not the first US pullout.

    No, in that Biden’s handling of the situation sends a clear signal that the US is giving up leadership.

    As an aside, I’d be slightly more worried about an accidental global conflict now given (1) Xi / Putin will think Biden is weak and (2) Biden and / or his entourage may think they need to act rough to any provocations.
    Do we want the US to be the world's policeman or not? We hammer them if they try to be (and, pace Tony Blair, crucify those that support them) and hammer them if they "give up leadership".
    Short answer is yes. We need someone to wield the hammer. The world is not a nice place and it needs a guardian. As for those who criticise the US acting in such a role, they can Foxtrot Oscar
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,702
    Pulpstar said:

    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    Indeed. They could have drawn two names at random like ancient Athens and not have done worse.
    Remarkably I'd put money on Trump v Biden 2 in three and a bit years.
    And after tonight's news and that Biden press conference Trump might win it next time.

    Unless the Democrats can find a younger, capable candidate like Buttigieg there may be little to stop Trump's return to the Oval Office in 2024
    Trump is almost certain to run again now in 2024 - barring illness - given what is happening.

    The issue for the Democrats now is Harris. She won’t give up the opportunity of being President (and the first female one).
    Harris would get completely run over by Trump; Biden is still the strongest candidate for the Dems
    He was in 2020, as of now he certainly isn't.

    Buttigieg would probably be their only hope to keep out Trump
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,218
    dixiedean said:

    Biden is a rambling old fool...what he says makes little to no sense.

    Xi and Putin must be pissing themselves, Trump then this guy.

    Indeed. They could have drawn two names at random like ancient Athens and not have done worse.
    Remarkably I'd put money on Trump v Biden 2 in three and a bit years.
    I'm the opposite. I think neither.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,833
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    I just cannot understand how you can be so dismissive of an outrage that has killed and maimed many men, women and children who had the right to be protected
    We invaded the country Big G and killed hundreds of thousands of people. We are now leaving and a few more will die.

    All the pearl clutching about the exit phase is bizarre, frankly.
    There was never any need for the USA to surrender to the Taliban. Both Trump and Biden have caused a lot of avoidable suffering by their determination to do so.

    Given that both men were content to cause such suffering, then it is perhaps strange to get upset about a bit of slaughter at Kabul airport, but there it is.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 34,434
    Chameleon said:

    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    A lot of the women and under-30s. Rome wasn't built in a day(cade). Look at the rates of child pregnancies, mortality in childbirth, and female education in 2019 vs 2000 and there's been a massive unprecedented improvement. The population that grew up since 2001 in the cities and the north are very promising, but they just weren't given enough time. That's the true tragedy, the hard work was done, and cost and loss of life would have been relatively minimal for the next decade had the americans not surrendered and fled.
    So just stay in the country for another decade or so to set them straight. Get infant mortality down, some women into school.

    That is a hell of a precedent for intervention you are setting there.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    I just cannot understand how you can be so dismissive of an outrage that has killed and maimed many men, women and children who had the right to be protected
    We invaded the country Big G and killed hundreds of thousands of people. We are now leaving and a few more will die.

    All the pearl clutching about the exit phase is bizarre, frankly.
    It is not the leaving that is in dispute, it is the manner and Biden's comprehensive failure of the process
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,402
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    How did the USA get into the position of having a choice between a psychopathic man-child and a senile coward as President.

    "Senile coward" is ruthlessly accurate. Brutal, and true

    It may also be very unfair. Biden has come through hideous tragedies to be where he is, he is obviously a man - or was a man - of gravitas and intelligence

    However, what I see today, in front of me, is what you describe. A "senile coward". This is just so terrible for America. FFS get a president under 60 who is not mad. How hard can it be
    If Trump had given these press conferences over the past week, CNN etc would be calling him senile.
    Yes. This last one was especially desperate. Almost desolating

    THIS is the leader of the Free World?

    We are fucked
    Many senior Democrats must be privately trying to think of ways to persuade him to stand down early.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,218
    MrEd said:

    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    Yes and no.

    Yes, Afghanistan matters little on the world stage and this is not the first US pullout.

    No, in that Biden’s handling of the situation sends a clear signal that the US is giving up leadership.

    As an aside, I’d be slightly more worried about an accidental global conflict now given (1) Xi / Putin will think Biden is weak and (2) Biden and / or his entourage may think they need to act rough to any provocations.
    It's sending a clear signal that he's had enough of Afghanistan.

    The rest is you projecting.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 893
    moonshine said:

    Yokes said:

    IS claims on the killings in Kabul refers to only one of the attacks.

    Do you have much of a view on Macron's indications that he will start to wind down the military presence in the Sahel? "France First" type politics here to stay or do you think he'll reconsider after the Kabul debacle?
    I think the French will stay in for a while yet.
  • Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    How did the USA get into the position of having a choice between a psychopathic man-child and a senile coward as President.

    "Senile coward" is ruthlessly accurate. Brutal, and true

    It may also be very unfair. Biden has come through hideous tragedies to be where he is, he is obviously a man - or was a man - of gravitas and intelligence

    However, what I see today, in front of me, is what you describe. A "senile coward". This is just so terrible for America. FFS get a president under 60 who is not mad. How hard can it be
    Dunno, but if anyone finds the secret, can we apply it in the UK as well please?

    (It probably goes back to the need for parties to select candidates who would do a reasonable job of governing, rather than prioritising those who might well win, but shouldn't. Coughboriscough)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,218
    Leon said:

    On the upside, a friend writing about hotels for US media just gave me a fab dinner here


    https://www.thehari.com/

    I strongly recommend. Oysters and steak. Go for the obvious. Really well done

    A fascinating clientele. Mainly young kids from UAE, Saudi, Jordan etc, tentatively sipping cocktails and gin. Plus a few elderly Yanks

    You and your oysters.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,935
    Yokes said:

    moonshine said:

    Yokes said:

    IS claims on the killings in Kabul refers to only one of the attacks.

    Do you have much of a view on Macron's indications that he will start to wind down the military presence in the Sahel? "France First" type politics here to stay or do you think he'll reconsider after the Kabul debacle?
    I think the French will stay in for a while yet.
    Interesting one isn't it that we're suddenly looking at Macron and France as the last best hope at leading the line against Islamic radicalism.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 34,434
    MrEd said:

    TOPPING said:

    MrEd said:

    TOPPING said:

    A lot of fuss over nothing. Relatively. The US announced it was going to pull out and it's pulling out.

    Is it messy? Not really. A couple of bombings which, thanks to smartphones, gets the Twitter in a tizzy.

    But this is what they said they were going to do and they are doing it.

    Who would want them and us to stay?

    Yes and no.

    Yes, Afghanistan matters little on the world stage and this is not the first US pullout.

    No, in that Biden’s handling of the situation sends a clear signal that the US is giving up leadership.

    As an aside, I’d be slightly more worried about an accidental global conflict now given (1) Xi / Putin will think Biden is weak and (2) Biden and / or his entourage may think they need to act rough to any provocations.
    Do we want the US to be the world's policeman or not? We hammer them if they try to be (and, pace Tony Blair, crucify those that support them) and hammer them if they "give up leadership".
    Short answer is yes. We need someone to wield the hammer. The world is not a nice place and it needs a guardian. As for those who criticise the US acting in such a role, they can Foxtrot Oscar
    At least it's a view. So Iraq good, Afghan good. Vietnam good. Grenada good. Any others on the list? What about Nigeria and Boko Haram. Or where was it that the 7/7 bombers came from again? Leeds wasn't it?
This discussion has been closed.