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Polling update for first half of August – politicalbetting.com

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  • I see the Germany has been far too welcoming to refugees lads have pivoted.

    At least Germany have been consistent.

    They disagreed with Cameron's plan to airlift the most vulnerable refugees out of the refugee camps preferring a policy that led directly to thousands dying trying to reach Europe and now they are refusing to help out with airlifting refugees out of Kabul, preferring to let them die at the hands of the Taliban.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,915
    Yokes said:

    I will give the CIA this, they have wasted no time at all talking to their old pals up in the Panjshir Valley in recent days.

    Will the Taliban even try and conquer the Tajik stronghold ?
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,136
    Pulpstar said:

    Yokes said:

    I will give the CIA this, they have wasted no time at all talking to their old pals up in the Panjshir Valley in recent days.

    Will the Taliban even try and conquer the Tajik stronghold ?
    Hopefully the son of the 'Lion of Panjshir' is a chip off the old block.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 39,709
    Well worth a read. (£) but you can register for free articles:

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2021-06-22/chronicle-defeat-foretold

    The Taliban had an edge in inspiration,” writes Malkasian. “The average soldier and policeman simply wanted to fight less than his Taliban counterpart. Many could not reconcile fighting for Afghanistan alongside an infidel occupier and against a movement that represented Islam.”

    In stressing the religious dimension, however, Malkasian overlooks more material conditions that sapped motivation from many Afghan fighters. Some were reluctant to fight for a government whose insatiable demand for bribes they felt was the bane of their lives. Others were well aware that there would be no medevacs for injured security forces and that corrupt commanders were siphoning off their fuel and supplies, as well as pocketing the pay for “ghost fighters,” who existed only on the books. They saw little utility in risking their lives for a predatory government when the Taliban seemed just as likely to return.

    The Afghans, after all, never believed that the Americans would stay. Back in 2005, in the remote village of Shkin, a place of intense fighting in the mountains of eastern Afghanistan, I watched local villagers happily accept health care and other help from U.S. soldiers in the day, then rocket their base at night. When I asked them why, they had a simple explanation: “In the end, they’ll be gone, and the bad guys will still be here.”
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TimT said:

    RobD said:

    TimT said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    alex_ said:

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Biden blaming the Afghanistan leaders and their army for not standing up to the Taliban

    He is not convincing to be honest

    Pretty damning, isn't he?

    Might not be wrong, but I am a bit surprised as to how blunt he's being.
    He's got a point though.
    Has he? What fool would fight for Afghanistan? How many Afghan people believed in the government and its aims? What proportion even bought into the idea of a secular nation?

    If you can't get the people to believe in the nation they are supposed to be fighting for they won't fight. So it came to pass. It was almost twitter FBPE foolishness on steroids as the liberal idiots spoke to the tiny section of liberal Afghan people in Kabul and they each convinced each other that the wider population in a deeply conservative and Islamist nation was actually on board with the idea of building a secular nation. It never was and I doubt it ever will be.

    Biden is a fool if he truly believed that the Afghan army would ever stand up to the Taliban.
    Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

    But the western diplomatic and intelligence services seemed to think they would.

    Because if they didn't then why have we been funding the Afghan army ?
    The most striking thing is the intelligence failures. It seems our much vaunted secret services knew very little of how likely the Afghan Army were to collapse and how a lot of tribal warlords of the old Northern Alliance were quite happy to flip sides. Some real questions to be answered by our spooks.
    They’ve completely blown Afghanistan. They were blind to the outbreak of Covid in Wuhan for 5 months. And they’ve got no answers to the questions posed by the tic tac ufo’s.

    I start to wonder what the CIA and MI6 are for. Are they now just a bunch of pen pushers clocking in and out?
    If only they'd managed to get a mole into Alpha Centauri.
    Leon and I have plugged the tic tac ufo as other worldly, because of the extreme unlikelihood that Russia or China could have developed anti gravity tech without us knowing. Seems to me our intelligence agencies are clueless about most everything so perhaps we were wrong.
    There was nothing in the declassified reports that required antigravity tech.
    You have your fingers in your ears on this. So does Biden of course.
    As do the authors of the report.

    The report that you predicted was going to shake the world.

    Which didn't shake the world.
    I never said that. It’s always been part of a process, not an event. I don’t know how long the process will take but I suspect it will be done by the end of the decade. Really though I’m bored talking to people about that topic who are not prepared to do the research with an open mind.
    I watched videos. I read papers. I would love to discover that aliens were out there, and visiting us on earth.

    It would be the most extraordinary story of my lifetime. My excitement would be beyond measure, and it would suggest humankind might be able to outlive the earth.

    But the more I read, and the more videos I watched the less impressed I was. There are things we can't understand. Sure. Agree 100%. But the summary of the Pentagon report was right: there are lots of things these could be. Plus, we now live in a world where five billion people carry cameras with them all the time. And yet - apart from some obviously faked videos on YouTube - I'm seeing very little evidence of aliens on earth.

    It seems to me, that when you say "open mind", what you actually mean is "agree with me".

    There may be aliens out there (statistically, highly likely). They may be observing us on earth (possible, if orders of magnitude less likely). But as yet, I am unconvinced.
    You’re a smart person who can read between the lines. What do you think was meant by this paragraph?

    “we may require additional scientific knowledge to successfully collect on, analyze and characterize some of them. We would group such objects in this category pending scientific advances that allowed us to better understand them”.
    "We would like more money"
    Is the Navy known for petitioning the government for funds for theoretical science research?
    DARPA - so I guess not specifically the Navy.
    Yeah, the armed forces in the US do a lot of research.
    See my edit. The Applied Physics Lab - the biggest Lab of them all - started out as a Navy lab.
    BARDA is a huge source of grants for military work although technically an HHS agency
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 39,709
    edited August 2021
    And this:

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2021-08-16/we-all-lost-afghanistan-taliban

    .. the situation on the ground is the result of two decades of miscalculations and failed policies pursued by three prior U.S. administrations and of the failure of Afghanistan’s leaders to govern for the good of their people. Many of the critics speaking out now were architects of those policies.

    .. we failed in our approach to counterinsurgency, to Afghan politics, and to “nation building.” We underestimated the resiliency of the Taliban. And we misread the geopolitical realities of the region.

    It is time to face the facts: a decision to delay the withdrawal of U.S. forces for another year or two would ultimately have made no difference to the unbearably sad consequences on the ground in Afghanistan.

    There is one seductive argument made by critics of the withdrawal: that a Taliban-ruled Afghanistan will again become a haven for terrorist groups threatening the security of the United States.

    The sacrifice, however, was significant: more than $1 trillion, the deaths of 2,400 U.S. service members (and thousands of contractors), more than 20,000 wounded Americans.

    Perhaps the resurgence of a terrorist threat will develop more quickly under a future Taliban government than it would have otherwise. But to conclude that this outcome demands an indefinite U.S. troop presence would imply that U.S. troops should also be deployed indefinitely in the many other parts of the world where Islamic State and al Qaeda offshoots are active in greater numbers than they are in Afghanistan and pose a greater threat to the United States. Moreover, U.S. capabilities to monitor and strike at terrorist groups have grown exponentially since 2001.

    Ultimately, Washington’s decision to withdraw U.S. troops is not the sole or even most important explanation for what is unfolding in Afghanistan today. The explanation lies in 20 years of failed policies and the shortcomings of Afghanistan’s political leadership.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    The House of Saud aren't AQ or IS.

    They're worse.

    Depends

    The House of Saud were spending that money to make sure the Wahhabites left them in power. So it was cowardice and greedy that motivated them. I’m not sure that is worse that IS or AQ.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,629
    Cyclefree said:



    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Words fail me on Afghanistan.

    And unlike most other stories over the past few months this one will really bite with loyal Boris supporters. The Mail and Telegraph are up in arms and the question is being asked about why all 'our boys' died in vain out there, let alone the utter betrayal of the Afghan peoples.

    Whatever your views on our involvement twenty years ago, this is an absolutely disgraceful episode in western foreign policy, a defeat of epic proportions.

    I suspect most "loyal Boris supporters" will not in fact give a damn about events in Afghanistan, unless we accept large numbers of Afghani refugees; it's a country far away from here that few would be able to locate on a map.

    But I agree it's a disgraceful episode of western foreign policy. What made the west think that it could transpose its norms and values into Afghani culture through a combination of military force and bribery, and get buy-in from the locals, including the Afghani army?

    Mercifully, and at least in the short-term, the Taliban 'revolution' seems to have been relatively peaceful. We haven't read of large numbers of casualties, apart from the disorder at the airport. This does seem to indicate that Taliban rule is not unpopular with a lot of Afghanis, perhaps even a majority. There's not a lot we can do about that, however much we don't approve.
    You are sadly deluded. The Taliban really are Islamic Nazis, like ISIS. That’s their USP. Their DNA. Radical, brutal Islam of the most mediaeval variety. What’s more, the most evangelical of them will now feel even more emboldened: we beat Imperial Britain, the USSR and now the USA. We cannot lose, Allah is with us!

    The most extreme within their movement will now assume moral command. Within a few months they will be stoning women and exporting terror, all over again. They are scorpions who have no other weapon than the stinger
    They are already hunting down women journalists, who have gone into hiding. We will not hear of the reality of what will,happen because journalists will leave, the world will get bored and anyway how will anyone manage to talk to any women since they will all be hidden behind veils in their homes.

    The horror will exist but will be hidden.
    Well, onething has changed since 2001, the prevalence of smartphones and Internet. Those women cannot be isolated in the way they were by the first Taliban regime. That goes for both information in and out. The word has changed, and it is much harder to keep secrets.
    Right - because if you're on the run from people trying to kill you, you'll obviously be on the internet and your phone because the silly old Taliban wonuldn't think of trying to track you down that way.

    Look at the pictures coming out of Afghanistan now. How many women are in those films of Kabul airport? Where are they?

    The reality of stunted lives - of what people cannot do, of the pain caused by not being able to access medical treatment, of not being able to go out for a walk etc - does not make for riveting films. So it will be ignored and quietly forgotten by most.
    He’s not entirely wrong that the internet and mobiles have made a difference in news getting out where it previously didn’t.
    But the reports of people wiping their phones, as the Taliban have a habit of checking contacts and search histories, suggest that it won’t be so simple.

    There will be some reporting, but it will disappear from the front pages and most people’s attention fairly soon I fear.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 44,733
    Charles said:

    The House of Saud aren't AQ or IS.

    They're worse.

    Depends

    The House of Saud were spending that money to make sure the Wahhabites left them in power. So it was cowardice and greedy that motivated them. I’m not sure that is worse that IS or AQ.
    Cowardice is more understandable than fanaticism.

    But - especially when backed by hundreds of billions in oil revenues - it can be even more dangerous.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 39,709
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    HYUFD said:

    The House of Saud aren't AQ or IS.

    They're worse.

    You are a complete moron then
    Nope. In the moron stakes you easily out-class Philip.

    I disagree with Philip on lots of things, but I reluctantly agree that he is bloody good. He has the knowledge and he has the arguments.

    You on the other hand are a classic moron. You misunderstand, you misrepresent, you often fail to answer straight questions, you sometimes talk gibberish and you unwittingly let things slip. Your only use is as an example of all that is foul about the Conservative Party. And the cherry on the cake is that you are a thug, always sticking up for the biggest bullies in any given scenario. Trump, PP, DUP, the Saudis, the Catalonian solution to the Scottish problem of hitting old ladies at polling stations, the list is endless.

    The reason you hate Philip is that he is a better man than you.

    I used to read an awful lot of Dilbert. In my mind’s eye, you are the Pointy-haired Boss. I bet your work colleagues can’t stand you.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261
    "President Macron pledges 'robust, coordinated and united' European response to stop waves of Afghan migrants heading to the West"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html

    We await the wails of liberal condemnation of the callous French/European response to the Afghan tragedy as the voters of 'artlepool -sur-mer concentrate Macron's mindset.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    I see the Germany has been far too welcoming to refugees lads have pivoted.

    At least Germany have been consistent.

    They disagreed with Cameron's plan to airlift the most vulnerable refugees out of the refugee camps preferring a policy that led directly to thousands dying trying to reach Europe and now they are refusing to help out with airlifting refugees out of Kabul, preferring to let them die at the hands of the Taliban.
    Merkel and Reinfeldt had inner principles and morality. Cameron didn’t.

    Yes, Germany and Sweden made mistakes, but - to be old-fashioned about it - they were acting as good Christians. To err is human.

    England has caused countless tragedies throughout the world, and left it to other, better nations to clear up their mess.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,146
    640 refugees counted off just one US C17 cargo plane.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899249/PICTURED-640-Afghan-refugees-ran-evacuation-jet-Kabul.html

    The pilot didn’t know how many souls on board his plane, such was the confusion on the ramp at KBL. He told air traffic control there might have been as many as 800.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 2,120
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    It isn't really a lucky escape - unless you don't mind living under the taliban. However, if you can survive under the regime without being killed or imprisoned, then it is probably better than an endless violent civil war or being a stateless refugee, given the low probability of getting anywhere safe.

    I am coming to the view that whilst messy and difficult politically this was probably the right thing to do. You can't prop up a useless government forever. It was never going to be a case of a billion a year for a base as some people suggest. We would have been drawn to fighting the taliban over and over again.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 54,895
    edited August 2021
    Headline indicators for the UK labour market for April to June 2021 show

    - employment was 75.1%
    - unemployment was 4.7%
    - economic inactivity was 21.1%


    https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1427510935573475346?s=20

    Job vacancies over 1,000,000 first time ever in July...
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261

    I see the Germany has been far too welcoming to refugees lads have pivoted.

    At least Germany have been consistent.

    They disagreed with Cameron's plan to airlift the most vulnerable refugees out of the refugee camps preferring a policy that led directly to thousands dying trying to reach Europe and now they are refusing to help out with airlifting refugees out of Kabul, preferring to let them die at the hands of the Taliban.
    Merkel and Reinfeldt had inner principles and morality. Cameron didn’t.

    Yes, Germany and Sweden made mistakes, but - to be old-fashioned about it - they were acting as good Christians. To err is human.

    England has caused countless tragedies throughout the world, and left it to other, better nations to clear up their mess.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    Here speaketh the moral conscience of the Conservative Party at prayer.

    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.”
    Matthew 7:15

    Here endeth today’s lesson.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 27,727
    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.

    However just as I wrote that I had a newsflash on my phone from Sky about 'thousands' of potential refugees trying to escape the Afghan Taliban. I sincerely hope Mr B2 is right and things will be less bad for the suffering people of Afghanistan, and I have no doubt that had the US (under Trump, don't forget) not decided to withdraw they would continue to have had years of bloodshed as the various armies swept to and fro across the country, but I am sure that many will just wish to leave, to have the opportunity to get on with their lives in peace.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,498
    edited August 2021
    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    Well, to quote from that article it sounds a good policy:

    "He said France would be cracking down on 'illegal people smuggling rings', along with Germany and other EU countries.

    Mr Macron said: 'We must anticipate and protect ourselves against significant irregular migratory flows that would endanger the migrants and risk encouraging trafficking of all kinds.'

    He said some 800 Afghans including translators and cooks who worked for France had already been evacuated to his country And the President added that France was ready to help activists, artists and journalists who risk being targeted because of their work.

    'We will help them as it is the honour of France to be side-by-side with those who share our values,' he said."

    So yes to genuine refugees, particularly with links to his country, No to people traffickers. Isn't that what we all want?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 54,895

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.
    Will AFP do?

    #BREAKING Macron vows EU initiative to protect against migrant flows from Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1427332973897166849?s=20

    Or Politico with a direct quote?

    “We must anticipate and protect ourselves against major irregular migratory flows that would endanger those who use them and feed trafficking of all kinds,” the French president said in a pre-recorded speech from Fort de Brégançon, where he is spending the summer break.

    “Europe alone cannot bear the consequences of the current situation,” he added.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/france-emmanuel-macron-europe-plan-afghanistan-migration-crisis-taliban/
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 2,120
    Rather off topic, but perhaps relevant to some of the exchanges on here.

    One the stand out questions in my last job interview was whether or not I can suffer fools gladly. As a general rule it is better to just let people occasionally make fools of themselves and humour them whilst they are doing it. This advice certainly rings true when dealing with half anonymous posters on internet forums.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,956

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.
    Will AFP do?

    #BREAKING Macron vows EU initiative to protect against migrant flows from Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1427332973897166849?s=20

    Or Politico with a direct quote?

    “We must anticipate and protect ourselves against major irregular migratory flows that would endanger those who use them and feed trafficking of all kinds,” the French president said in a pre-recorded speech from Fort de Brégançon, where he is spending the summer break.

    “Europe alone cannot bear the consequences of the current situation,” he added.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/france-emmanuel-macron-europe-plan-afghanistan-migration-crisis-taliban/
    The man is about as subtle in his dog whistles to Le Pen’s supporters as a rhinoceros horn up the arse.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.

    However just as I wrote that I had a newsflash on my phone from Sky about 'thousands' of potential refugees trying to escape the Afghan Taliban. I sincerely hope Mr B2 is right and things will be less bad for the suffering people of Afghanistan, and I have no doubt that had the US (under Trump, don't forget) not decided to withdraw they would continue to have had years of bloodshed as the various armies swept to and fro across the country, but I am sure that many will just wish to leave, to have the opportunity to get on with their lives in peace.
    Are you denying the accuracy of the Mail report of a TV broadcast by the President of France.

    Try this from France 24:

    "The European Union would set up an initiative to thwart the large migrant flows now expected from the country, cracking down on illegal people smuggling rings that risk emerging, he said.

    France, Germany and other EU countries would put together a response that was "robust, coordinated and united" to prevent irregular migration by harmonising criteria and showing European solidarity. "
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 27,727

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.
    Will AFP do?

    #BREAKING Macron vows EU initiative to protect against migrant flows from Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1427332973897166849?s=20

    Or Politico with a direct quote?

    “We must anticipate and protect ourselves against major irregular migratory flows that would endanger those who use them and feed trafficking of all kinds,” the French president said in a pre-recorded speech from Fort de Brégançon, where he is spending the summer break.

    “Europe alone cannot bear the consequences of the current situation,” he added.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/france-emmanuel-macron-europe-plan-afghanistan-migration-crisis-taliban/
    See Dr F's post.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    Well, to quote from that article it sounds a good policy:

    "He said France would be cracking down on 'illegal people smuggling rings', along with Germany and other EU countries.

    Mr Macron said: 'We must anticipate and protect ourselves against significant irregular migratory flows that would endanger the migrants and risk encouraging trafficking of all kinds.'

    He said some 800 Afghans including translators and cooks who worked for France had already been evacuated to his country And the President added that France was ready to help activists, artists and journalists who risk being targeted because of their work.

    'We will help them as it is the honour of France to be side-by-side with those who share our values,' he said."

    So yes to genuine refugees, particularly with links to his country, No to people traffickers. Isn't that what we all want?
    Absolutely except when the UK government has the same policy.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,213

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.
    Will AFP do?

    #BREAKING Macron vows EU initiative to protect against migrant flows from Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1427332973897166849?s=20

    Or Politico with a direct quote?

    “We must anticipate and protect ourselves against major irregular migratory flows that would endanger those who use them and feed trafficking of all kinds,” the French president said in a pre-recorded speech from Fort de Brégançon, where he is spending the summer break.

    “Europe alone cannot bear the consequences of the current situation,” he added.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/france-emmanuel-macron-europe-plan-afghanistan-migration-crisis-taliban/
    See Dr F's post.
    Automatically saying everything in the Daily Mail is wrong is just lazy.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.
    Will AFP do?

    #BREAKING Macron vows EU initiative to protect against migrant flows from Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1427332973897166849?s=20

    Or Politico with a direct quote?

    “We must anticipate and protect ourselves against major irregular migratory flows that would endanger those who use them and feed trafficking of all kinds,” the French president said in a pre-recorded speech from Fort de Brégançon, where he is spending the summer break.

    “Europe alone cannot bear the consequences of the current situation,” he added.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/france-emmanuel-macron-europe-plan-afghanistan-migration-crisis-taliban/
    When the EU/France says 'allez vous en vite' to them it suddenly becomes a sensible and sound response.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,849
    edited August 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    I hope you’re correct, but it sounds Panglossian, given the Taliban’s record.

    At best, if they rule brutally, they will face uprisings in turn, with much the same outcome as a prolonged war.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    HYUFD said:

    The House of Saud aren't AQ or IS.

    They're worse.

    You are a complete moron then
    Nope. In the moron stakes you easily out-class Philip.

    I disagree with Philip on lots of things, but I reluctantly agree that he is bloody good. He has the knowledge and he has the arguments.

    You on the other hand are a classic moron. You misunderstand, you misrepresent, you often fail to answer straight questions, you sometimes talk gibberish and you unwittingly let things slip. Your only use is as an example of all that is foul about the Conservative Party. And the cherry on the cake is that you are a thug, always sticking up for the biggest bullies in any given scenario. Trump, PP, DUP, the Saudis, the Catalonian solution to the Scottish problem of hitting old ladies at polling stations, the list is endless.

    The reason you hate Philip is that he is a better man than you.

    I used to read an awful lot of Dilbert. In my mind’s eye, you are the Pointy-haired Boss. I bet your work colleagues can’t stand you.
    Good morning everyone. Where has the summer gone? Down to 12.4 degC this am, and thick, unbroken, cloud.

    Mr D you have, I'm afraid, gone far too far over the top. Yes, my fellow Essex resident can be a PIA, and yes, he can pick on the wrong, or unimportant, part of a discussion but I don't get the impression that he 'hates' anyone.

    So I know it's a bad morning, a dreadful morning, for a lot of people today, but surely we can try to be at least moderately pleasant to each other.
    I’m sorry. I did rather go too far there.

    Unfortunately, there is good evidence that HYUFD does indeed “hate” Philip and other posters. He also displayed raw hatred on the night when England won the silver medal in the European Championship, which has been screenshot and the acting mod considered would hinder him from ever being a prospective parliamentary candidate for the Conservative Party. These are serious matters.

    Where I went too far is in calling him the Pointy-haired Boss. That was unforgivable. Nobody in real life can be *that* big a moron. I’m sure FUDHY’s colleagues think he’s adorable. And his mum loves him. And the gerbil.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 54,895
    You know Nicola Sturgeon is taking a bold moral stand when she gets out the letter-headed paper.

    The First Minister's missive to Boris Johnson, urging him to 'reassess' a drilling licence issued for exploration of the Cambo oil field, is a classic of the Sturgeon genre. She has jumped into the middle of a knife fight and called for further study of kitchen-utensil based combat.


    https://stephendaisley.substack.com/p/hot-air
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,498
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    Well, to quote from that article it sounds a good policy:

    "He said France would be cracking down on 'illegal people smuggling rings', along with Germany and other EU countries.

    Mr Macron said: 'We must anticipate and protect ourselves against significant irregular migratory flows that would endanger the migrants and risk encouraging trafficking of all kinds.'

    He said some 800 Afghans including translators and cooks who worked for France had already been evacuated to his country And the President added that France was ready to help activists, artists and journalists who risk being targeted because of their work.

    'We will help them as it is the honour of France to be side-by-side with those who share our values,' he said."

    So yes to genuine refugees, particularly with links to his country, No to people traffickers. Isn't that what we all want?
    Absolutely except when the UK government has the same policy.
    Could you clarify who you mean that supports that policy for France but not for us. I cannot think of anyone on here.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261
    RobD said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.
    Will AFP do?

    #BREAKING Macron vows EU initiative to protect against migrant flows from Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1427332973897166849?s=20

    Or Politico with a direct quote?

    “We must anticipate and protect ourselves against major irregular migratory flows that would endanger those who use them and feed trafficking of all kinds,” the French president said in a pre-recorded speech from Fort de Brégançon, where he is spending the summer break.

    “Europe alone cannot bear the consequences of the current situation,” he added.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/france-emmanuel-macron-europe-plan-afghanistan-migration-crisis-taliban/
    See Dr F's post.
    Automatically saying everything in the Daily Mail is wrong is just lazy.
    All the great liberal principles melt away in the face of anything which has the word Europe in it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    Well, to quote from that article it sounds a good policy:

    "He said France would be cracking down on 'illegal people smuggling rings', along with Germany and other EU countries.

    Mr Macron said: 'We must anticipate and protect ourselves against significant irregular migratory flows that would endanger the migrants and risk encouraging trafficking of all kinds.'

    He said some 800 Afghans including translators and cooks who worked for France had already been evacuated to his country And the President added that France was ready to help activists, artists and journalists who risk being targeted because of their work.

    'We will help them as it is the honour of France to be side-by-side with those who share our values,' he said."

    So yes to genuine refugees, particularly with links to his country, No to people traffickers. Isn't that what we all want?
    Absolutely except when the UK government has the same policy.
    Could you clarify who you mean that supports that policy for France but not for us. I cannot think of anyone on here.
    Then you haven't been on PB for the last few days. DYOR.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 27,727
    RobD said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.
    Will AFP do?

    #BREAKING Macron vows EU initiative to protect against migrant flows from Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1427332973897166849?s=20

    Or Politico with a direct quote?

    “We must anticipate and protect ourselves against major irregular migratory flows that would endanger those who use them and feed trafficking of all kinds,” the French president said in a pre-recorded speech from Fort de Brégançon, where he is spending the summer break.

    “Europe alone cannot bear the consequences of the current situation,” he added.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/france-emmanuel-macron-europe-plan-afghanistan-migration-crisis-taliban/
    See Dr F's post.
    Automatically saying everything in the Daily Mail is wrong is just lazy.
    Fair point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,498
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    Well, to quote from that article it sounds a good policy:

    "He said France would be cracking down on 'illegal people smuggling rings', along with Germany and other EU countries.

    Mr Macron said: 'We must anticipate and protect ourselves against significant irregular migratory flows that would endanger the migrants and risk encouraging trafficking of all kinds.'

    He said some 800 Afghans including translators and cooks who worked for France had already been evacuated to his country And the President added that France was ready to help activists, artists and journalists who risk being targeted because of their work.

    'We will help them as it is the honour of France to be side-by-side with those who share our values,' he said."

    So yes to genuine refugees, particularly with links to his country, No to people traffickers. Isn't that what we all want?
    Absolutely except when the UK government has the same policy.
    Could you clarify who you mean that supports that policy for France but not for us. I cannot think of anyone on here.
    Then you haven't been on PB for the last few days. DYOR.
    So you cannot name anyone...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    Well, to quote from that article it sounds a good policy:

    "He said France would be cracking down on 'illegal people smuggling rings', along with Germany and other EU countries.

    Mr Macron said: 'We must anticipate and protect ourselves against significant irregular migratory flows that would endanger the migrants and risk encouraging trafficking of all kinds.'

    He said some 800 Afghans including translators and cooks who worked for France had already been evacuated to his country And the President added that France was ready to help activists, artists and journalists who risk being targeted because of their work.

    'We will help them as it is the honour of France to be side-by-side with those who share our values,' he said."

    So yes to genuine refugees, particularly with links to his country, No to people traffickers. Isn't that what we all want?
    Stop being so bloody sensible doctor, it just increases their blood pressure.

    Please learn the rools:

    Boris can do no wrong
    Biden is senile
    Jocks are irrelevant
    Germans are cowards
    The French stink of garlic
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    Well, to quote from that article it sounds a good policy:

    "He said France would be cracking down on 'illegal people smuggling rings', along with Germany and other EU countries.

    Mr Macron said: 'We must anticipate and protect ourselves against significant irregular migratory flows that would endanger the migrants and risk encouraging trafficking of all kinds.'

    He said some 800 Afghans including translators and cooks who worked for France had already been evacuated to his country And the President added that France was ready to help activists, artists and journalists who risk being targeted because of their work.

    'We will help them as it is the honour of France to be side-by-side with those who share our values,' he said."

    So yes to genuine refugees, particularly with links to his country, No to people traffickers. Isn't that what we all want?
    Absolutely except when the UK government has the same policy.
    Could you clarify who you mean that supports that policy for France but not for us. I cannot think of anyone on here.
    Then you haven't been on PB for the last few days. DYOR.
    So you cannot name anyone...
    Not into that silly game - I leave that garbage to Dickson et al. but like I said DYOFR.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    Well, to quote from that article it sounds a good policy:

    "He said France would be cracking down on 'illegal people smuggling rings', along with Germany and other EU countries.

    Mr Macron said: 'We must anticipate and protect ourselves against significant irregular migratory flows that would endanger the migrants and risk encouraging trafficking of all kinds.'

    He said some 800 Afghans including translators and cooks who worked for France had already been evacuated to his country And the President added that France was ready to help activists, artists and journalists who risk being targeted because of their work.

    'We will help them as it is the honour of France to be side-by-side with those who share our values,' he said."

    So yes to genuine refugees, particularly with links to his country, No to people traffickers. Isn't that what we all want?
    Absolutely except when the UK government has the same policy.
    Could you clarify who you mean that supports that policy for France but not for us. I cannot think of anyone on here.
    Then you haven't been on PB for the last few days. DYOR.
    So you cannot name anyone...
    Not into that silly game - I leave that garbage to Dickson et al. but like I said DYOFR.
    So you cannot name anyone. Glad we got that cleared up.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 58,411
    Good morning, everyone.

    Finally got around to reading The Machine Stops, a novella by EM Forster. Can't recommend it enough, despite being released in 1909 the dystopian story of a society degraded by dependence on technology feels incredibly relevant and, unlike some comparable books, it's very easy to read and not a slog *cough*1984/BraveNewWorld*cough* at any point.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,334

    I see the Germany has been far too welcoming to refugees lads have pivoted.

    At least Germany have been consistent.

    They disagreed with Cameron's plan to airlift the most vulnerable refugees out of the refugee camps preferring a policy that led directly to thousands dying trying to reach Europe and now they are refusing to help out with airlifting refugees out of Kabul, preferring to let them die at the hands of the Taliban.
    Merkel and Reinfeldt had inner principles and morality. Cameron didn’t.

    Yes, Germany and Sweden made mistakes, but - to be old-fashioned about it - they were acting as good Christians. To err is human.

    England has caused countless tragedies throughout the world, and left it to other, better nations to clear up their mess.
    Hmmm. I might remind you of Germany's fairly recent past wrt 'countless tragedies', and I doubt the Sami people would say Sweden has been prefect.

    And Scotland was very complicit in some of the crime you probably place upon the 'English'. A lot of Glasgow's wealth came from the slave trade, for instance.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,195
    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,943
    Floater said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    alex_ said:

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Biden blaming the Afghanistan leaders and their army for not standing up to the Taliban

    He is not convincing to be honest

    Pretty damning, isn't he?

    Might not be wrong, but I am a bit surprised as to how blunt he's being.
    He's got a point though.
    Has he? What fool would fight for Afghanistan? How many Afghan people believed in the government and its aims? What proportion even bought into the idea of a secular nation?

    If you can't get the people to believe in the nation they are supposed to be fighting for they won't fight. So it came to pass. It was almost twitter FBPE foolishness on steroids as the liberal idiots spoke to the tiny section of liberal Afghan people in Kabul and they each convinced each other that the wider population in a deeply conservative and Islamist nation was actually on board with the idea of building a secular nation. It never was and I doubt it ever will be.

    Biden is a fool if he truly believed that the Afghan army would ever stand up to the Taliban.
    Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

    But the western diplomatic and intelligence services seemed to think they would.

    Because if they didn't then why have we been funding the Afghan army ?
    The most striking thing is the intelligence failures. It seems our much vaunted secret services knew very little of how likely the Afghan Army were to collapse and how a lot of tribal warlords of the old Northern Alliance were quite happy to flip sides. Some real questions to be answered by our spooks.
    They’ve completely blown Afghanistan. They were blind to the outbreak of Covid in Wuhan for 5 months. And they’ve got no answers to the questions posed by the tic tac ufo’s.

    I start to wonder what the CIA and MI6 are for. Are they now just a bunch of pen pushers clocking in and out?
    If only they'd managed to get a mole into Alpha Centauri.
    Leon and I have plugged the tic tac ufo as other worldly, because of the extreme unlikelihood that Russia or China could have developed anti gravity tech without us knowing. Seems to me our intelligence agencies are clueless about most everything so perhaps we were wrong.
    There was nothing in the declassified reports that required antigravity tech.
    I have no idea how the tic tac object stays airborne - it has no propulsion we can see and was caught on multiple radars on multiple days travelling conservatively at 50,000 miles an hour plus and pulling something like 12,250 g's - including immediate stops after dropping 50,000 feet in a couple of seconds. They also "flew" at 80,000 feet at 100 knots - not easy to explain.

    No idea what powers them or how they can operate as they do - but its certainly not traditional tech
    It’s quite sweet how some people can witness the US military be handed their arses by a few illiterate peasants. And yet think at the same time they are harbouring ultra technology so sophisticated that every military witness that’s gone on the record (and there are now quite a few) believes it to be non-human in origin. The flight patterns and radar data are such that it’s reasonable to conclude in some cases these objects came from space or near space, shot down to close to sea level before stopping dead in the air above the sea. For context the US government has not officially had a human launch capability of any kind for ten years.

    Smart room paradox at play I think. “Don’t worry, somewhere there’s a room full of Jack Ryan and Tony Stark hybrids that have everything figured out to keep us safe. They’re a bit overfunded and always asking for more money in ever more creative ways but such is life”.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 27,727

    I see the Germany has been far too welcoming to refugees lads have pivoted.

    At least Germany have been consistent.

    They disagreed with Cameron's plan to airlift the most vulnerable refugees out of the refugee camps preferring a policy that led directly to thousands dying trying to reach Europe and now they are refusing to help out with airlifting refugees out of Kabul, preferring to let them die at the hands of the Taliban.
    Merkel and Reinfeldt had inner principles and morality. Cameron didn’t.

    Yes, Germany and Sweden made mistakes, but - to be old-fashioned about it - they were acting as good Christians. To err is human.

    England has caused countless tragedies throughout the world, and left it to other, better nations to clear up their mess.
    Hmmm. I might remind you of Germany's fairly recent past wrt 'countless tragedies', and I doubt the Sami people would say Sweden has been prefect.

    And Scotland was very complicit in some of the crime you probably place upon the 'English'. A lot of Glasgow's wealth came from the slave trade, for instance.
    I don't think many (?any) significant nation can claim to have been 'good' all the time. Not sure about the record of Andorra or Lichtenstein, though.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    I see the Germany has been far too welcoming to refugees lads have pivoted.

    At least Germany have been consistent.

    They disagreed with Cameron's plan to airlift the most vulnerable refugees out of the refugee camps preferring a policy that led directly to thousands dying trying to reach Europe and now they are refusing to help out with airlifting refugees out of Kabul, preferring to let them die at the hands of the Taliban.
    Merkel and Reinfeldt had inner principles and morality. Cameron didn’t.

    Yes, Germany and Sweden made mistakes, but - to be old-fashioned about it - they were acting as good Christians. To err is human.

    England has caused countless tragedies throughout the world, and left it to other, better nations to clear up their mess.
    Hmmm. I might remind you of Germany's fairly recent past wrt 'countless tragedies', and I doubt the Sami people would say Sweden has been prefect.

    And Scotland was very complicit in some of the crime you probably place upon the 'English'. A lot of Glasgow's wealth came from the slave trade, for instance.
    The difference is that Germany, Scotland and Sweden have made honest efforts to atone for their sins. The English haven’t, or at least the English Establishment haven’t. They are still making the same mistakes they made when they had an Empire.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,956

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Ouch.

    I managed to keep mine down to about 5% while renewing three months ago. Seems like I was lucky.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,498
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    Well, to quote from that article it sounds a good policy:

    "He said France would be cracking down on 'illegal people smuggling rings', along with Germany and other EU countries.

    Mr Macron said: 'We must anticipate and protect ourselves against significant irregular migratory flows that would endanger the migrants and risk encouraging trafficking of all kinds.'

    He said some 800 Afghans including translators and cooks who worked for France had already been evacuated to his country And the President added that France was ready to help activists, artists and journalists who risk being targeted because of their work.

    'We will help them as it is the honour of France to be side-by-side with those who share our values,' he said."

    So yes to genuine refugees, particularly with links to his country, No to people traffickers. Isn't that what we all want?
    Absolutely except when the UK government has the same policy.
    Could you clarify who you mean that supports that policy for France but not for us. I cannot think of anyone on here.
    Then you haven't been on PB for the last few days. DYOR.
    So you cannot name anyone...
    Not into that silly game - I leave that garbage to Dickson et al. but like I said DYOFR.
    Not even one name?

    Just your frothy mouthed view of what other people believe, with not a single example cited?

    And yes, I have been intermittently on PB over the last few days and seen no one express the view that you claim.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 27,727
    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Ouch.

    I managed to keep mine down to about 5% while renewing three months ago. Seems like I was lucky.
    Likewise. The sharp rises seem to have come in the last few weeks.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,362

    Good morning, everyone.

    Finally got around to reading The Machine Stops, a novella by EM Forster. Can't recommend it enough, despite being released in 1909 the dystopian story of a society degraded by dependence on technology feels incredibly relevant and, unlike some comparable books, it's very easy to read and not a slog *cough*1984/BraveNewWorld*cough* at any point.

    Interesting recommendation - I confess I'd never heard of it. Will take a look, thanks!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 39,709
    edited August 2021
    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    I hope you’re correct, but it sounds Panglossian, given the Taliban’s record.

    At best, if they rule brutally, they will face uprisings in turn, with much the same outcome as a prolonged war.
    Agreed, and it isn't a happy outcome. But it may well have been the best of those that were realistically achievable.

    The problem with judging any decision or action is that we never get to see the outcome, had we done something different.

    The alternatives that appear to be on offer were i) two years of bloody civil war, death, destruction and humanitarian crises, followed by the same outcome as now, ii) an unspecified longer period of temporary occupation, more death and destruction, followed by withdrawal and the same outcome as now, or iii) permanent occupation, an ongoing toll of death and injury to US and UK troops, contractors and Afghan civilians, ongoing corruption and propping up of brutal warlords, continued massive expenditure of $ and £,with the Taliban still alive and operating from the hills of Pakistan.

    We never planned, expected or intended to be there for 20 years. The reason it has gone on for so long is that the original decision was the biggest mistake, and until now politicians have chosen option ii) above rather than admit the sad truth that the death toll and immense cost has been, and always was one day going to be found out as having been, all for nothing.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,943
    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Ouch.

    I managed to keep mine down to about 5% while renewing three months ago. Seems like I was lucky.
    Home insurance quote up by 12% seemed a bit steep I thought
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,943
    edited August 2021

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    There are said by some to still be thousands of non military US citizens still on the ground. Presumably a mix of security contractors and aid workers. Biden being “right” in the eyes of the American public is very much going to depend on the fate of those people isn’t it?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,334

    I see the Germany has been far too welcoming to refugees lads have pivoted.

    At least Germany have been consistent.

    They disagreed with Cameron's plan to airlift the most vulnerable refugees out of the refugee camps preferring a policy that led directly to thousands dying trying to reach Europe and now they are refusing to help out with airlifting refugees out of Kabul, preferring to let them die at the hands of the Taliban.
    Merkel and Reinfeldt had inner principles and morality. Cameron didn’t.

    Yes, Germany and Sweden made mistakes, but - to be old-fashioned about it - they were acting as good Christians. To err is human.

    England has caused countless tragedies throughout the world, and left it to other, better nations to clear up their mess.
    Hmmm. I might remind you of Germany's fairly recent past wrt 'countless tragedies', and I doubt the Sami people would say Sweden has been prefect.

    And Scotland was very complicit in some of the crime you probably place upon the 'English'. A lot of Glasgow's wealth came from the slave trade, for instance.
    The difference is that Germany, Scotland and Sweden have made honest efforts to atone for their sins. The English haven’t, or at least the English Establishment haven’t. They are still making the same mistakes they made when they had an Empire.
    Really? I might remind you of the anti-Turkish sentiment in Germany, as just one example. Something we have experienced directly.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 39,709
    RobD said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    You seem to be implying a degree of status to the post EU UK whichj belies so many of your usual utterances as to render it as garbage. How do you feel about Macron's latest thoughts I wonder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899277/Macron-pledges-robust-European-response-stop-waves-Afghan-migrants-heading-West.html
    "I read it in the Daily Mail' used to be a classic description of a falsehood, or at least a substantial misinterpretation.
    Will AFP do?

    #BREAKING Macron vows EU initiative to protect against migrant flows from Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1427332973897166849?s=20

    Or Politico with a direct quote?

    “We must anticipate and protect ourselves against major irregular migratory flows that would endanger those who use them and feed trafficking of all kinds,” the French president said in a pre-recorded speech from Fort de Brégançon, where he is spending the summer break.

    “Europe alone cannot bear the consequences of the current situation,” he added.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/france-emmanuel-macron-europe-plan-afghanistan-migration-crisis-taliban/
    See Dr F's post.
    Automatically saying everything in the Daily Mail is wrong is just lazy.
    Even the Daily Mail has rumbled that Boris is a fraud, for a start.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,629
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yokes said:

    US KIA in Afghanistan in 2019 - 22.
    2018-15

    Buy the time 2020 rolled round it was clear the US was going to backseat and back out- 5.

    The US has taken less than 30 dead per year since 2015 when they were still knee deep in there. Sad every single one but not exactly a huge rate of attrition. Not all of those were caused by hostile action either.

    Biden and Trump are cowards and rodents who will be judged. America does not have to retreat so shamefully
    More nonsense. In human terms, the withdrawal has been a triumph, with minimal loss of life.

    Turn round the ‘experts’ view that the Afghan security forces had the ability to hold out for eighteen months to two years, and we see that the planning assumption was a long and bloody civil war, which the Taliban would eventually win; meanwhile our news would fill with stories of death and destruction and misery and humanitarian disaster for months to come.

    For politicians, it’s a disaster, because the mistakes and hubris and incompetence and corruption of the past twenty years’ foreign policy have been suddenly exposed in the most brutal way. Rather than hidden beneath a long, messy and slowly unfolding story.

    For the people of Afghanistan it has been a lucky escape. Doubtless there will be abuses and humanitarian crisis still to come, but nothing on the scale of the two-year civil war that the US and UK had been planning and preparing for them.
    There is something in that.
    But let us see how brutal is the new regime before celebrating a relatively bloodless transition.
    One thing is for sure, and that is that the US has forfeited any influence it might have had on the nature of that regime.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 58,411
    Mr. Jessop, my German coursework was a diary of a Gastarbeiter in Kreuzberg suffering a hard time.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,481

    I see the Germany has been far too welcoming to refugees lads have pivoted.

    At least Germany have been consistent.

    They disagreed with Cameron's plan to airlift the most vulnerable refugees out of the refugee camps preferring a policy that led directly to thousands dying trying to reach Europe and now they are refusing to help out with airlifting refugees out of Kabul, preferring to let them die at the hands of the Taliban.
    Merkel and Reinfeldt had inner principles and morality. Cameron didn’t.

    Yes, Germany and Sweden made mistakes, but - to be old-fashioned about it - they were acting as good Christians. To err is human.

    England has caused countless tragedies throughout the world, and left it to other, better nations to clear up their mess.
    Hmmm. I might remind you of Germany's fairly recent past wrt 'countless tragedies', and I doubt the Sami people would say Sweden has been prefect.

    And Scotland was very complicit in some of the crime you probably place upon the 'English'. A lot of Glasgow's wealth came from the slave trade, for instance.
    The jingo bells always get round to blaming it on the Scots, never fails.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,146
    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Ouch.

    I managed to keep mine down to about 5% while renewing three months ago. Seems like I was lucky.
    Home insurance quote up by 12% seemed a bit steep I thought
    Remember to tell your home insurance company if you’re working from home.

    They’ll be happier that someone is in all day, if you’re in a high crime area, but less happy about more computer equipment being there.

    They’ll almost certainly use the lack of complete information to deny a claim though.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,146
    moonshine said:

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    There are said by some to still be thousands of non military US citizens still on the ground. Presumably a mix of security contractors and aid workers. Biden being “right” in the eyes of the American public is very much going to depend on the fate of those people isn’t it?
    Yes. What matters for the long-term view, is how the next few days and weeks play out.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Good morning, everyone.

    Finally got around to reading The Machine Stops, a novella by EM Forster. Can't recommend it enough, despite being released in 1909 the dystopian story of a society degraded by dependence on technology feels incredibly relevant and, unlike some comparable books, it's very easy to read and not a slog *cough*1984/BraveNewWorld*cough* at any point.

    Ordered from library. Ta.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,498
    moonshine said:

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    There are said that some to still be thousands of non military US citizens still on the ground. Presumably a mix of security contractors and aid workers. Biden being “right” in the eyes of the American public is very much going to depend on the fate of those people isn’t it?
    From this morning's news, evacuation flights are resuming, with the tarmac cleared of people, with the Taliban permitting the retreat. It doesn't sound like a developing hostage situation.

    Still rather hairy situation to be flying our troops and FCO staff into to assist the evacuation. All it takes is one nutter with a shoulder launched SAM.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    Here, here!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,481
    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Ouch.

    I managed to keep mine down to about 5% while renewing three months ago. Seems like I was lucky.
    Home insurance quote up by 12% seemed a bit steep I thought
    They try to stiff you if you have been with them a few years, exception so far is SAGA who reduced their cost this year. AXA was a fair increase so I went elsewhere and got same cover for less. I used to just renew till I actually started looking at the numbers and found I was being gouged for loyalty.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 22,198
    Freedom loving GOP letting the people decide over Covid

    https://twitter.com/The_Old_Rascal/status/1426912001322782721
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Thar she blows!
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,943
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    There are said that some to still be thousands of non military US citizens still on the ground. Presumably a mix of security contractors and aid workers. Biden being “right” in the eyes of the American public is very much going to depend on the fate of those people isn’t it?
    From this morning's news, evacuation flights are resuming, with the tarmac cleared of people, with the Taliban permitting the retreat. It doesn't sound like a developing hostage situation.

    Still rather hairy situation to be flying our troops and FCO staff into to assist the evacuation. All it takes is one nutter with a shoulder launched SAM.
    But Kabul isn’t where this story will play out. Ben Wallace has already told us that.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,943
    malcolmg said:

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Ouch.

    I managed to keep mine down to about 5% while renewing three months ago. Seems like I was lucky.
    Home insurance quote up by 12% seemed a bit steep I thought
    They try to stiff you if you have been with them a few years, exception so far is SAGA who reduced their cost this year. AXA was a fair increase so I went elsewhere and got same cover for less. I used to just renew till I actually started looking at the numbers and found I was being gouged for loyalty.
    What a way to treat your customers!
  • moonshine said:

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    There are said by some to still be thousands of non military US citizens still on the ground. Presumably a mix of security contractors and aid workers. Biden being “right” in the eyes of the American public is very much going to depend on the fate of those people isn’t it?
    Depends on which kind of American public. Both parties seem agreed on the need to withdraw and end the military occupation. Trump bragging about how its all personally his doing. IOC and the house Corbynites just voted against taking Afghan refugees. So who knows?

    At least the US President and his key cabinet aides didn't look at the unfolding chaos and decide to go on holiday. Unlike their counterparts in the UK.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    Some “Fuck Business” news:

    ‘Covid app pinged close contacts in prior five days not two, says source’
    - Whitehall whistleblower says mistake was flagged to Matt Hancock before he resigned in June but never publicly admitted

    The DHSC did not challenge the whistleblower’s account and was not able to point to a place where the Covid app guidance publicly referred to contacts being searched five days prior to a positive case.

    “The disclosure means that many thousands of people have been pinged by the Covid app without their consent,” he said. “Since the outset of the pandemic, this government has displayed an extremely poor and cavalier attitude towards basic privacy and transparency safeguards.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/covid-app-pinged-close-contacts-in-prior-five-days-not-two-says-source
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 51,491
    edited August 2021

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Good morning

    I did comment on this a few weeks ago as I saw a similar rise on a 2 year fix

    Apparently energy costs have risen dramatically and there are climate change increases to follow

    Wage increases at 7.4% average announced today is a good thing for workers and the tax take but inflation is bound to rise as a consequence
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,956
    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Ouch.

    I managed to keep mine down to about 5% while renewing three months ago. Seems like I was lucky.
    Home insurance quote up by 12% seemed a bit steep I thought
    They try to stiff you if you have been with them a few years, exception so far is SAGA who reduced their cost this year. AXA was a fair increase so I went elsewhere and got same cover for less. I used to just renew till I actually started looking at the numbers and found I was being gouged for loyalty.
    What a way to treat your customers!
    They gamble on that inertia. That’s why the quote low to start and then jack prices up later.

    Last year, I had an energy company that offered me a 50% reduction in the amount I was paying monthly. Their figures were utterly impossible, but I thought I would sign up anyway to see what happened. Needless to say, within six months they were sending me monthly emails informing me my DD would be increased, and monthly emails from me advising that my consent for that was withheld.

    That’s an extreme example, but it’s what they all do over a period of a few years.

    If everyone switched regularly or refused to vary an introductory offer set unrealistically low, they might start being more sensible about such things.

    I can’t help but feel the ‘lowest price switch’ policy by the government is likely to be counterproductive. After all, all they have to do is make incorrect assumptions about likely energy use.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,098

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    Here, here!
    Hear, hear, actually. Wouldn't usually correct that, but here is precisely where you aren't, as I understand it, and where RP has been for about three minutes.
  • Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    I fully expect HMG will accept Afghan refugees especially those who have helped together with women and children

    However, no matter how generous HMG may be the need is far bigger than anything the UK as a whole could accept and it is essential the EU and the US step up to the plate

    I understand Germany only took 7 out yesterday and if that is true it is shocking and inexcusable
  • kjhkjh Posts: 6,236
    Interesting. I know how most things work, but from a practical point of view I am totally incompetent. Bizarre to think l would go back to the stone age with a head full of useful/useless knowledge.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,814

    I see the Germany has been far too welcoming to refugees lads have pivoted.

    At least Germany have been consistent.

    They disagreed with Cameron's plan to airlift the most vulnerable refugees out of the refugee camps preferring a policy that led directly to thousands dying trying to reach Europe and now they are refusing to help out with airlifting refugees out of Kabul, preferring to let them die at the hands of the Taliban.
    Merkel and Reinfeldt had inner principles and morality. Cameron didn’t.

    Yes, Germany and Sweden made mistakes, but - to be old-fashioned about it - they were acting as good Christians. To err is human.

    England has caused countless tragedies throughout the world, and left it to other, better nations to clear up their mess.
    Hmmm. I might remind you of Germany's fairly recent past wrt 'countless tragedies', and I doubt the Sami people would say Sweden has been prefect.

    And Scotland was very complicit in some of the crime you probably place upon the 'English'. A lot of Glasgow's wealth came from the slave trade, for instance.
    The difference is that Germany, Scotland and Sweden have made honest efforts to atone for their sins. The English haven’t, or at least the English Establishment haven’t. They are still making the same mistakes they made when they had an Empire.
    Really? I might remind you of the anti-Turkish sentiment in Germany, as just one example. Something we have experienced directly.
    But that is Foreign Racism - which is cultured, nice racism. It's in a foreign language and everything.....

    Or are you one of those parochial little minded people who only appreciates racism when it's English?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    IshmaelZ said:

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    Here, here!
    Hear, hear, actually. Wouldn't usually correct that, but here is precisely where you aren't, as I understand it, and where RP has been for about three minutes.
    Incorrect. I’m over for the month. We Swedes have *ridiculously* long holidays.

    In his three minutes RP has astutely grasped the basics of Scottish society. Hear, hear!

    Now for some porridge while perusing the grandeur of the loch and the hills. Might see another otter…
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,814

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    I fully expect HMG will accept Afghan refugees especially those who have helped together with women and children

    However, no matter how generous HMG may be the need is far bigger than anything the UK as a whole could accept and it is essential the EU and the US step up to the plate

    I understand Germany only took 7 out yesterday and if that is true it is shocking and inexcusable
    It's not shocking - in the sense of surprising. You can hear some interesting things when you give Germans a few beers and they think that no non-Europeans are about.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 54,895
    THE Scottish Government will today begin work on a multi-billion pound plan to provide every household with a minimum level of income to help tackle poverty. Social Justice Secretary Shona Robison will co-chair the first meeting of a steering group to develop the policy, which could necessitate massive tax rises. Ms Robison has also launched a month-long public consultation on how a revolutionary “minimum income guarantee” could be designed and delivered in Scotland.......

    A recent report by the IPPR thinktank suggested a monthly core entitlement of £1,244 for a couple household, and £792 for a single person household, plus additional payments for children, could cost £7billion in Scotland in 2022/23, a sixth of the Holyrood budget.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19517362.snp-ministers-start-work-eye-wateringly-costly-plan-minimum-income/?ref=twtrec
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,629
    .

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Good morning

    I did comment on this a few weeks ago as I saw a similar rise on a 2 year fix

    Apparently energy costs have risen dramatically and there are climate change increases to follow

    Wage increases at 7.4% average announced today is a good thing for workers and the tax take but inflation is bound to rise as a consequence
    How much is the an artefact of the goings on of the last year, though ?
    I doubt the average of actual awards is so high.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 54,895
    Joyous & Civic:

    Just watched Auschwitz on TV. Only place ever affected me the way Culloden does. Both represent the attempt to exterminate a people & their culture. Names at Culloden my family names. Nameless at Auchwitz belong to all of us. Unfortunately world has learned little

    https://twitter.com/JimFairlie/status/1427374156128063490?s=20
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 18,908
    moonshine said:

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    There are said by some to still be thousands of non military US citizens still on the ground. Presumably a mix of security contractors and aid workers. Biden being “right” in the eyes of the American public is very much going to depend on the fate of those people isn’t it?
    There's now some US polling, showing what I think most of us expected - Biden has taken a hit, but not a huge hit, and is still in positive teritory - Morning Consult show him down from +14 to +5 after resistance to the Taleban collapsed:

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Could evolve further, or reverse if people liked the speech, but overall not that bad.
  • TazTaz Posts: 4,797

    Joyous & Civic:

    Just watched Auschwitz on TV. Only place ever affected me the way Culloden does. Both represent the attempt to exterminate a people & their culture. Names at Culloden my family names. Nameless at Auchwitz belong to all of us. Unfortunately world has learned little

    https://twitter.com/JimFairlie/status/1427374156128063490?s=20

    Not seen Culloden for a while. The BFI release was excellent. Have to dig it out.
  • Nigelb said:

    .

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Good morning

    I did comment on this a few weeks ago as I saw a similar rise on a 2 year fix

    Apparently energy costs have risen dramatically and there are climate change increases to follow

    Wage increases at 7.4% average announced today is a good thing for workers and the tax take but inflation is bound to rise as a consequence
    How much is the an artefact of the goings on of the last year, though ?
    I doubt the average of actual awards is so high.
    Here is the BBC report if it helps

    BBC News - UK job vacancies at record high as wages tick up
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58241006
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 58,411
    Mr. kjh, I was very pleasantly surprised just how well the story/theme chimes with the modern world. Not to mention the writer predicts (effectively) the internet and instant messaging in 1909.

    I sometimes watch the Modern History TV channel on Youtube. I forget the precise way to make a toothbrush from a twig, but do know how to make (pretty basic) soap. Things like waxed linen and rush lights/reed lights were also especially interesting.

    We'd be utterly lost without technology. It's not a bad thing to progress scientifically, but we do need to be wary of overreliance.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 27,727
    Nigelb said:

    .

    OT

    I've just had to negotiate an energy contract for the coming year. The cheapest I could find implied an increase of about 34%!!. If this is repeated across the board I can't see it having a good effect on the inflation rate, or even my household budget for the year....

    Good morning

    I did comment on this a few weeks ago as I saw a similar rise on a 2 year fix

    Apparently energy costs have risen dramatically and there are climate change increases to follow

    Wage increases at 7.4% average announced today is a good thing for workers and the tax take but inflation is bound to rise as a consequence
    How much is the an artefact of the goings on of the last year, though ?
    I doubt the average of actual awards is so high.
    I too wonder about that. Anyone know?
  • TazTaz Posts: 4,797

    THE Scottish Government will today begin work on a multi-billion pound plan to provide every household with a minimum level of income to help tackle poverty. Social Justice Secretary Shona Robison will co-chair the first meeting of a steering group to develop the policy, which could necessitate massive tax rises. Ms Robison has also launched a month-long public consultation on how a revolutionary “minimum income guarantee” could be designed and delivered in Scotland.......

    A recent report by the IPPR thinktank suggested a monthly core entitlement of £1,244 for a couple household, and £792 for a single person household, plus additional payments for children, could cost £7billion in Scotland in 2022/23, a sixth of the Holyrood budget.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19517362.snp-ministers-start-work-eye-wateringly-costly-plan-minimum-income/?ref=twtrec

    I wonder if this would replace the pensions and other benefits people get or run alongside them.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,098

    IshmaelZ said:

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    Here, here!
    Hear, hear, actually. Wouldn't usually correct that, but here is precisely where you aren't, as I understand it, and where RP has been for about three minutes.
    Incorrect. I’m over for the month. We Swedes have *ridiculously* long holidays.

    In his three minutes RP has astutely grasped the basics of Scottish society. Hear, hear!

    Now for some porridge while perusing the grandeur of the loch and the hills. Might see another otter…
    I'm sure that place in Broughty Ferry will take all their children, too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,586
    HYUFD said:

    .

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    Here's a prediction. Biden will not be harmed politically (domestically) by this, in fact he may even get a boost. And within a few short weeks Trump will be back claiming credit for the withdrawal.

    It all depends how the next few days go. The avoidance of US casualties is the key.

    If everyone gets home safely, the narrative that 20 years and billions of USD brought no benefit, just an army that capitulated in 20 seconds, so no point throwing good money after bad, might well work.
    On tonight's Morning Consult poll a clear plurality of Americans say they would have opposed the withdrawal if it leads to the return of AQ and terrorists to Afghanistan, so Biden is taking a big risk
    But as @rcs1000 has already explained Afghanistan and the Taliban were not the root cause of international Islamic terror.

    So in order to defund international Islamic terror, what plans have you for the House of Saud?
    Bin Laden based himself in Afghanistan and then fled to Pakistan not Saudi, indeed the House of Saud have become more wary of AQ and its affiliates as they know that Bin Laden wanted to replace them too.

    Saudi also sent fighter jets to bomb ISIS too

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-arabia-sends-jets-to-turkish-base-to-boost-role-in-isis-fight-1455463348
    Check the date of your WSJ article. Fifteen years after 9/11.

    I again refer you to @rcs1000 's analysis of why Bin Ladin was hiding in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Rather more to do with the geography rather than the politics as I recall.
    Yes and since 9/11 the House of Saud have made clear they have no truck with AQ and IS.

    Topple the House of Saud and you would end up with something far worse, a Sunni version of the Islamic revolution in Iran on steroids maybe even ending up with a supreme leader looking not too dissimilar to Bin Laden
    I asked you what your plans were for the House of Saud. I did not imply their overthrow. I was just interested how, in your bid to rid the world of Islamic terrorist groups how you proposed dealing with the Saudi Royal Family.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 27,727
    edited August 2021

    Mr. kjh, I was very pleasantly surprised just how well the story/theme chimes with the modern world. Not to mention the writer predicts (effectively) the internet and instant messaging in 1909.

    I sometimes watch the Modern History TV channel on Youtube. I forget the precise way to make a toothbrush from a twig, but do know how to make (pretty basic) soap. Things like waxed linen and rush lights/reed lights were also especially interesting.

    We'd be utterly lost without technology. It's not a bad thing to progress scientifically, but we do need to be wary of overreliance.

    Seem to dimly really how to make a toothbrush from a twig from Scouting for Boys, or similar.

    Wonder if one can still buy that. Might have some useful tips.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,146

    THE Scottish Government will today begin work on a multi-billion pound plan to provide every household with a minimum level of income to help tackle poverty. Social Justice Secretary Shona Robison will co-chair the first meeting of a steering group to develop the policy, which could necessitate massive tax rises. Ms Robison has also launched a month-long public consultation on how a revolutionary “minimum income guarantee” could be designed and delivered in Scotland.......

    A recent report by the IPPR thinktank suggested a monthly core entitlement of £1,244 for a couple household, and £792 for a single person household, plus additional payments for children, could cost £7billion in Scotland in 2022/23, a sixth of the Holyrood budget.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19517362.snp-ministers-start-work-eye-wateringly-costly-plan-minimum-income/?ref=twtrec

    Ah, Universal Basic Income again. The totally unviable idea that people can’t let die.
  • Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    I fully expect HMG will accept Afghan refugees especially those who have helped together with women and children

    However, no matter how generous HMG may be the need is far bigger than anything the UK as a whole could accept and it is essential the EU and the US step up to the plate

    I understand Germany only took 7 out yesterday and if that is true it is shocking and inexcusable
    We need an international response where we take our fair share. As we refused to do that with Syrians why do you think we will do so with Afghans now that we have left the international community arrangements for refugees?

    Sadly the good people of England have been hardened against human suffering and that smirking cow Patel will instead double down on restrictions so that we don't get future Home Secretary Patels.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,098

    Mr. kjh, I was very pleasantly surprised just how well the story/theme chimes with the modern world. Not to mention the writer predicts (effectively) the internet and instant messaging in 1909.

    I sometimes watch the Modern History TV channel on Youtube. I forget the precise way to make a toothbrush from a twig, but do know how to make (pretty basic) soap. Things like waxed linen and rush lights/reed lights were also especially interesting.

    We'd be utterly lost without technology. It's not a bad thing to progress scientifically, but we do need to be wary of overreliance.

    It is online btw

    https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/Machine_stops.pdf
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 7,489

    Joyous & Civic:

    Just watched Auschwitz on TV. Only place ever affected me the way Culloden does. Both represent the attempt to exterminate a people & their culture. Names at Culloden my family names. Nameless at Auchwitz belong to all of us. Unfortunately world has learned little

    https://twitter.com/JimFairlie/status/1427374156128063490?s=20

    Was't Culloden mainly Scots on Scots?
  • eekeek Posts: 18,829

    Morning all! Watched the clips from the Biden speech, read comment from my friends on Twitter attacking it and have concluded Biden is largely in the right.

    Certain people have banged away on this forum about Biden's shame in leaving people behind. And yet when it comes to the international community taking Afghan refugees we know what the response will be - NO.

    As we - the UK as much as the US - are responsible for the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, we have a moral obligation to take people fleeing their theocratic bearded Gilead. America has already said it will take 30,000. Canada 20,000. How many will Britain take?

    If England doesn't want them cos bigots send them north of the wall. Scotland will welcome them.

    I fully expect HMG will accept Afghan refugees especially those who have helped together with women and children

    However, no matter how generous HMG may be the need is far bigger than anything the UK as a whole could accept and it is essential the EU and the US step up to the plate

    I understand Germany only took 7 out yesterday and if that is true it is shocking and inexcusable
    It's not shocking - in the sense of surprising. You can hear some interesting things when you give Germans a few beers and they think that no non-Europeans are about.
    This is probably very biased but does reflect the views of Austria

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ive-worked-refugees-decades-europes-afghan-crime-wave-mind-21506

This discussion has been closed.