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Starmer edging up in the next PM betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    RobD said:

    It's just that Brexiteers insisted roaming charges would never be reintroduced, just another lie then.

    Of course the UK Government if it had any balls could legislate but they won't. Roaming charges are a complete con

    How are they a complete con?
    Because it really doesn't cost that much your data to use in mature foreign mobile markets.
    Vodafone is an odd one because they own so much of Europe's telecoms infrastructure and they have got a pretty big non-EU roaming package offered in premium contracts. I can't see them changing those to remove EU markets. What will change is that roaming becomes available in premium contracts only while everyone else just pays the £1 per day.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    Tory MPs have lined up to back Rishi Sunak as the defender of fiscal conservativism after Boris Johnson’s threat to sack him, as Treasury sources pushed back against the idea of a carbon tax.

    No 10 insisted the prime minister had full confidence in Sunak but his spokesman did not deny Johnson had threatened to demote the chancellor to health secretary amid a row about a leaked letter pushing Johnson to ease Covid restrictions.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/09/tory-mps-back-sunak-after-prime-ministers-threat-to-sack-him?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Excellent news and a word of warning to those who want Boris gone, be careful what you wish for
    You've changed your tune!
    Not really

    I have made it clear for sometime I want Rishi to takeover and the sooner the better
    Ah yes - I misunderstood your earlier post.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    It's just that Brexiteers insisted roaming charges would never be reintroduced, just another lie then.

    Of course the UK Government if it had any balls could legislate but they won't. Roaming charges are a complete con

    Honestly missed that bus with the ‘no roaming charges’ sign.
  • Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    There is a cost to roaming.

    Why should those who aren't roaming shoulder the costs of those who are?

    Why should people like TSE frequently going abroad and using a lot of roaming data, be paid for by those who are staying domestically and not accruing such costs?
    Philip, I used to work for Vodafone.

    There is no cost to Vodafone of you roaming from Vodafone UK onto Vodafone Germany, the costs are moved around the Group.
    What about markets where they don’t own infrastructure?
    They have partner networks in nearly every country, the cost of roaming is so low in these markets as to be irrelevant.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,459

    I bought the last big bottle of own brand sparkling water in my local Sainsburys on Saturday sorry not sorry

    Sparkling water is disgusting, I'll rather dehydrate than drink sparkling water.
    I mix it with squash to make fizzy squash
  • Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
  • Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,636
    edited August 2021

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    They aren't though.

    The people who are really subsiding phone calls for everyone are pretty much

    1) PAYG users (usually the very poor who cannot afford/eligible for contract deals.)

    and

    2) People whose contract with a phone has ended and still paying the price for the handset because EE/Vodafone/Three don't automatically remove the handset element at the end of the contract like o2/Sky Mobile/Tesco Mobile do.
  • Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    There is a cost to roaming.

    Why should those who aren't roaming shoulder the costs of those who are?

    Why should people like TSE frequently going abroad and using a lot of roaming data, be paid for by those who are staying domestically and not accruing such costs?
    Don't you get tired of being wrong on so many different things.

    More than six in ten Brits (64%) took a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019, up from 60% the previous year, and the highest figure since 2011.

    https://www.abta.com/news/more-brits-heading-holiday
    So what's your point? Where was I wrong? Your data does not show my point as being wrong.

    Your very own data says that more than a third of Brits (36%) did not take a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019, and that 40% did not take a foreign holiday in the prior year.

    You think that 36% to 40% not taking a foreign holiday should should the cost of the roaming fees of those who are? Why are you so self-entitled about that?

    PS that says nothing about the people who did take a single trip and didn't use much or any data when they did.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,724

    Tory MPs have lined up to back Rishi Sunak as the defender of fiscal conservativism after Boris Johnson’s threat to sack him, as Treasury sources pushed back against the idea of a carbon tax.

    No 10 insisted the prime minister had full confidence in Sunak but his spokesman did not deny Johnson had threatened to demote the chancellor to health secretary amid a row about a leaked letter pushing Johnson to ease Covid restrictions.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/09/tory-mps-back-sunak-after-prime-ministers-threat-to-sack-him?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Excellent news and a word of warning to those who want Boris gone, be careful what you wish for
    My worry about Johnson going is that the membership will vote for Patel. Hopefully the MPs wont take the risk of putting her in the top two.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383
    edited August 2021
    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And here we go. Vodafone to reintroduce daily roaming charges in the EU for UK customers from January. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58146039

    EDIT: It's not Brexit...

    This was where EU membership was at its most obviously malign.
    As a rest of EU rules, charges are increased on most phone users so that the minority who travel regularly to the continent can be marginally less inconvenienced.
    Roaming charges are irrelevant to almost everyone almost all of the time. They're abolition was a boon to - basically - the elite, and a cost to everyone else. Basically a metaphor for EU membership.
    Not sure about this. I suspect that an awful lot of Brexit-voting red wall voters holiday in Europe at least once a year (in normal time) and benefitted from free roaming; not many go to Butlins or Skegness any more, you know.

    And anyway, the phone companies promised they would not re-introduce roaming charges after Brexit. One by one, they are breaking that promise.
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
    It's going to become a premium contract differentiator and try and push people towards higher priced contracts/phones. O2 are doing it too.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    I don't think they were subsidising them. Roaming charges used to be astronomical, and the bills to unsuspecting holiday makaers in europe were getting ridiculous. I don't think it was a bad thing for The EU to force the companies to be fairer in costs and charging. I would also say that a lot of people benefitted from the free roaming costs, mostly holiday makers, not really the elite.
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
  • MaxPB said:

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
    It's going to become a premium contract differentiator and try and push people towards higher priced contracts/phones. O2 are doing it too.
    No they aren't.

    O2 are not introducing roaming. They've said you can use up to 25 GB of your data abroad without penalty.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    MaxPB said:

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
    It's going to become a premium contract differentiator and try and push people towards higher priced contracts/phones. O2 are doing it too.
    No they aren't.

    O2 are not introducing roaming. They've said you can use up to 25 GB of your data abroad without penalty.
    For now. Eventually it will be the same as what Vodafone are offering.
  • Tory MPs have lined up to back Rishi Sunak as the defender of fiscal conservativism after Boris Johnson’s threat to sack him, as Treasury sources pushed back against the idea of a carbon tax.

    No 10 insisted the prime minister had full confidence in Sunak but his spokesman did not deny Johnson had threatened to demote the chancellor to health secretary amid a row about a leaked letter pushing Johnson to ease Covid restrictions.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/09/tory-mps-back-sunak-after-prime-ministers-threat-to-sack-him?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Excellent news and a word of warning to those who want Boris gone, be careful what you wish for
    My worry about Johnson going is that the membership will vote for Patel. Hopefully the MPs wont take the risk of putting her in the top two.
    I will not vote for Patel - I promise you
  • Tory MPs have lined up to back Rishi Sunak as the defender of fiscal conservativism after Boris Johnson’s threat to sack him, as Treasury sources pushed back against the idea of a carbon tax.

    No 10 insisted the prime minister had full confidence in Sunak but his spokesman did not deny Johnson had threatened to demote the chancellor to health secretary amid a row about a leaked letter pushing Johnson to ease Covid restrictions.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/09/tory-mps-back-sunak-after-prime-ministers-threat-to-sack-him?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Excellent news and a word of warning to those who want Boris gone, be careful what you wish for
    My worry about Johnson going is that the membership will vote for Patel. Hopefully the MPs wont take the risk of putting her in the top two.
    Currently Patel is not doing that well in the ConHome members cabinet rankings (probably due to the channel boats):

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2021/08/from-self-isolation-to-score-annihilation-johnson-drops-36-points-in-our-cabinet-league-table.html
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    They aren't though.

    The people who are really subsiding phone calls for everyone are pretty much

    1) PAYG users (usually the very poor who cannot afford/eligible for contract deals.)

    and

    2) People whose contract with a phone has ended and still paying the price for the handset because EE/Vodafone/Three don't automatically remove the handset element at the end of the contract like o2/Sky Mobile/Tesco Mobile do.
    3) Burner phone users?
  • Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    They aren't though.

    The people who are really subsiding phone calls for everyone are pretty much

    1) PAYG users (usually the very poor who cannot afford/eligible for contract deals.)

    and

    2) People whose contract with a phone has ended and still paying the price for the handset because EE/Vodafone/Three don't automatically remove the handset element at the end of the contract like o2/Sky Mobile/Tesco Mobile do.
    3) Burner phone users?
    That was implied in 1)
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Can we have the Olympics back? That was a more interesting discussion area.
  • Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    They aren't though.

    The people who are really subsiding phone calls for everyone are pretty much

    1) PAYG users (usually the very poor who cannot afford/eligible for contract deals.)

    and

    2) People whose contract with a phone has ended and still paying the price for the handset because EE/Vodafone/Three don't automatically remove the handset element at the end of the contract like o2/Sky Mobile/Tesco Mobile do.
    The price of many things has much more to do with "how much can we get away with charging?" than "how much does it cost to provide?"

    This isn't a secret, is it?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803

    MaxPB said:

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
    It's going to become a premium contract differentiator and try and push people towards higher priced contracts/phones. O2 are doing it too.
    No they aren't.

    O2 are not introducing roaming. They've said you can use up to 25 GB of your data abroad without penalty.
    If a mobile phone provider can give me a contract with a cheap monthly charge but which charges for roaming in the EU, I will go for that one, because I rarely go to the EU. TSE would no doubt make a different choice and would go for a contract which charges more but with free EU roaming - as he goes to the EU reasonably often. That seems an entirely sensible way for a market to work.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015

    I bought the last big bottle of own brand sparkling water in my local Sainsburys on Saturday sorry not sorry

    Sparkling water is disgusting, I'll rather dehydrate than drink sparkling water.
    I mix it with squash to make fizzy squash
    Isn't that home-made Fanta?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
    So you prefer government regulation of pricing rather than letting the market?

    The trouble with “free” stuff is, it isn’t. Someone pays.
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    I bought the last big bottle of own brand sparkling water in my local Sainsburys on Saturday sorry not sorry

    Sparkling water is disgusting, I'll rather dehydrate than drink sparkling water.
    I mix it with squash to make fizzy squash
    Isn't that home-made Fanta?
    The soda stream has broken after the milk escapade.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Can we have the Olympics back? That was a more interesting discussion area.

    "They haven't gone away, you know!"
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,459

    I bought the last big bottle of own brand sparkling water in my local Sainsburys on Saturday sorry not sorry

    Sparkling water is disgusting, I'll rather dehydrate than drink sparkling water.
    I mix it with squash to make fizzy squash
    Isn't that home-made Fanta?
    Depends what squash you use. I’m a big fan of using grenadine syrup
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    edited August 2021
    Mortimer said:

    O/T My friend at a JCP says the universal credit uplift is definitely ending, the confirmation has started appearing in the journals of UC claimants telling them so.

    Lovely. That'll help boost the economy over the next few months not.
    It's going to look even more horrific if they keep the triple lock.
    Rishi will be able to use this - if confirmed - as a 'justification' to ditch the Triple Lock, as a 'fairness' measure, in the Budget. Ostensibly just for this review (2022/2023) but will end up being permanent. Which is fine by me, Triple Lock is not justified in any case.
    Can't see that happening myself. Think of the political maelstrom that engulfed George Osborne over the 'granny tax' and that change was rather innocuous as it turned out.
    Yeh, can't see it. Hammer the working class of Red Wall on UC AND hammer the pensioners of the Southern shires in same Budget?

    Both will be vetoed by Johnson.
    ....if he wants to be challenged by the 1922.

    There is no justification for the UC uplift.

    Nor is there justification for keeping the triple lock in existing form.

    Sound money Conservatives and freedom loving Conservatives are flexing their muscles again. We'll return to fiscal rectitude just as we've got rid of the covid theatre recent weeks.
    Only problem with that is if you lose voters in the Red Wall and lose pensioners by removing the triple lock then bang goes the Tory majority.

    There are not enough fiscal conservatives to win a general election with them alone.

    Note Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010 before the triple lock promise but did in 2015 after he introduced it.

    The next general election will also not have Corbyn to frighten the horses to the blues as in 2017 and 2019 nor will it have the promise of getting an EU referendum as in 2015 and getting Brexit done as in 2019, so the Tories cannot afford to give their core vote an excuse to switch
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    They aren't though.

    The people who are really subsiding phone calls for everyone are pretty much

    1) PAYG users (usually the very poor who cannot afford/eligible for contract deals.)

    and

    2) People whose contract with a phone has ended and still paying the price for the handset because EE/Vodafone/Three don't automatically remove the handset element at the end of the contract like o2/Sky Mobile/Tesco Mobile do.
    This is spot on, albeit you need to add big international roamers to the list.

    Mobile phones are like Candy Crush players: a few really high margin customers generate a massive share of profits to the operators. It's the very poor, the unobservant, and those who are price insensitive massive users.

  • Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
    It's going to become a premium contract differentiator and try and push people towards higher priced contracts/phones. O2 are doing it too.
    No they aren't.

    O2 are not introducing roaming. They've said you can use up to 25 GB of your data abroad without penalty.
    If a mobile phone provider can give me a contract with a cheap monthly charge but which charges for roaming in the EU, I will go for that one, because I rarely go to the EU. TSE would no doubt make a different choice and would go for a contract which charges more but with free EU roaming - as he goes to the EU reasonably often. That seems an entirely sensible way for a market to work.
    To be honest, I probably spend less holiday time in the EU than the average red waller.

    My personal visits for the last few years to the EU have generally been circa a half dozen 24 hr trips following Liverpool in Europe.
  • Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
    So you prefer government regulation of pricing rather than letting the market?

    The trouble with “free” stuff is, it isn’t. Someone pays.
    When Government regulation results in prices dropping then yes it works well. The regulation has gone and the prices have gone up, how can you support such a thing?

    You must work for one of the networks, your responses are incredibly bizarre
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    It's O2.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    rcs1000 said:

    Can we have the Olympics back? That was a more interesting discussion area.

    Although obviously not a great time zone for the U.K., I am massively missing the olympics. Had a week off for the first week (coincidence) and loved getting up and watching a few hours. Very much looking forward to Paris.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526

    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And here we go. Vodafone to reintroduce daily roaming charges in the EU for UK customers from January. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58146039

    EDIT: It's not Brexit...

    This was where EU membership was at its most obviously malign.
    As a rest of EU rules, charges are increased on most phone users so that the minority who travel regularly to the continent can be marginally less inconvenienced.
    Roaming charges are irrelevant to almost everyone almost all of the time. They're abolition was a boon to - basically - the elite, and a cost to everyone else. Basically a metaphor for EU membership.
    I will just use whatsapp and if someone isnt on whatsapp.. tough... or in the case of my 92 yr old mother, my sister will have to be present or one of her kids... i am not paying vodaphone a penny more than i have to.

    They already make billions. They dont need to charge. They are just greedy.
    I dunno, should I be seen on this website in the company of this anti-corporate Marxist?
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    It's O2.

    No, they stylise it with a lower case o.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    rcs1000 said:

    Can we have the Olympics back? That was a more interesting discussion area.

    Although obviously not a great time zone for the U.K., I am massively missing the olympics. Had a week off for the first week (coincidence) and loved getting up and watching a few hours. Very much looking forward to Paris.
    Beijing next winter is sooner, and offers another chance to be getting up early.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    They aren't though.

    The people who are really subsiding phone calls for everyone are pretty much

    1) PAYG users (usually the very poor who cannot afford/eligible for contract deals.)

    and

    2) People whose contract with a phone has ended and still paying the price for the handset because EE/Vodafone/Three don't automatically remove the handset element at the end of the contract like o2/Sky Mobile/Tesco Mobile do.
    3) Burner phone users?
    That was implied in 1)
    Don't think burner phone users are usually very poor.

    In unconnected news Lord Bethell is a multi millionaire I believe.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
  • The new O2 adverts are superb, very good campaign.

    Vodafone’s are dreadful, they had such a good slogan with Power to You
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Can we have the Olympics back? That was a more interesting discussion area.

    Although obviously not a great time zone for the U.K., I am massively missing the olympics. Had a week off for the first week (coincidence) and loved getting up and watching a few hours. Very much looking forward to Paris.
    Beijing next winter is sooner, and offers another chance to be getting up early.
    not Team GB's area of expertise though.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    rcs1000 said:

    Can we have the Olympics back? That was a more interesting discussion area.

    Although obviously not a great time zone for the U.K., I am massively missing the olympics. Had a week off for the first week (coincidence) and loved getting up and watching a few hours. Very much looking forward to Paris.
    Yes, Paris is going to be great. Hope the government sort out the TV rights issue as well and ensure all sports are available to the general public rather than being behind a paywall. This is probably an area where the EU could have been useful but never bothered. Instead they watched as a US mercenary company bought up European rights and stuck it all behind a paywall with absolutely shit coverage.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
    So you prefer government regulation of pricing rather than letting the market?

    The trouble with “free” stuff is, it isn’t. Someone pays.
    When Government regulation results in prices dropping then yes it works well. The regulation has gone and the prices have gone up, how can you support such a thing?

    You must work for one of the networks, your responses are incredibly bizarre
    You can’t say that prices have gone up yet. You need to wait and see what price plans are available from the new year. The same market pressures as always will apply.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,063
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    O/T My friend at a JCP says the universal credit uplift is definitely ending, the confirmation has started appearing in the journals of UC claimants telling them so.

    Lovely. That'll help boost the economy over the next few months not.
    It's going to look even more horrific if they keep the triple lock.
    Rishi will be able to use this - if confirmed - as a 'justification' to ditch the Triple Lock, as a 'fairness' measure, in the Budget. Ostensibly just for this review (2022/2023) but will end up being permanent. Which is fine by me, Triple Lock is not justified in any case.
    Can't see that happening myself. Think of the political maelstrom that engulfed George Osborne over the 'granny tax' and that change was rather innocuous as it turned out.
    Yeh, can't see it. Hammer the working class of Red Wall on UC AND hammer the pensioners of the Southern shires in same Budget?

    Both will be vetoed by Johnson.
    ....if he wants to be challenged by the 1922.

    There is no justification for the UC uplift.

    Nor is there justification for keeping the triple lock in existing form.

    Sound money Conservatives and freedom loving Conservatives are flexing their muscles again. We'll return to fiscal rectitude just as we've got rid of the covid theatre recent weeks.
    Only problem with that is if you lose voters in the Red Wall and lose pensioners by removing the triple lock then bang goes the Tory majority.

    There are not enough fiscal conservatives to win a general election with them alone.

    Note Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010 before the triple lock promise but did in 2015 after he introduced it.

    The next general election will also not have Corbyn to frighten the horses to the blues as in 2017 and 2019 nor will it have the promise of getting an EU referendum as in 2015 and getting Brexit done as in 2019, so the Tories cannot afford to give their core vote an excuse to switch
    Governing is about taking hard decisions and the triple lock is not sustainable and dealing with it is essential rather than worrying about opinion polls

  • The new O2 adverts are superb, very good campaign.

    Vodafone’s are dreadful, they had such a good slogan with Power to You

    o2 are such hypocrites.

    Remember their 'Be more dog' adverts?

    Imagine my shock when I was chucked out of the o2 store on Market Street in Manchester for sniffing the pretty female sales assistant's crotch.
  • MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
  • MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    Three are the worst.

    Install one 5G mast in a town and city and advertise they've brought 5G to that city/town.
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    It's O2.

    No, they stylise it with a lower case o.
    No, you incel virgin! Check out their website:

    "Why choose O2?"
    "Here at O2, you can customise a plan to suit your needs"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/why-o2

    "The O2 - More than just a venue"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/sponsorship/the-o2

    "Find an O2 store"
    "Look for a store near you"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/storelocator
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
  • MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    I saw some stats last year that said BT/EE had the most Huawei equipment out there.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    Not a Brexiteer, but I imagine the vast majority who spend almost all of their time in the U.K. NOT subsidising people who travel may regard it as a good thing
    Here's a question for you.

    Do you think Vodafone and EE will cut tariffs once roaming charges are back?
    They will do what they have to do to remain both competitive and profitable.

    Here’s a question for you. Why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    That's a lot of words to say No.
    So why should UK resident phone users subsidise the cost of phone calls for travellers?
    As I just explained to you, there is no subsidising. The costs of data, calls, texts have DROPPED since the EU law was introduced.

    As I also explained, the cost of roaming is low as to be zero, specifically around O2, Vodafone who have partner networks and negotiate reciprocal roaming arrangements.

    This is a cynical cash grab by Vodafone and nothing else.
    It's going to become a premium contract differentiator and try and push people towards higher priced contracts/phones. O2 are doing it too.
    No they aren't.

    O2 are not introducing roaming. They've said you can use up to 25 GB of your data abroad without penalty.
    If a mobile phone provider can give me a contract with a cheap monthly charge but which charges for roaming in the EU, I will go for that one, because I rarely go to the EU. TSE would no doubt make a different choice and would go for a contract which charges more but with free EU roaming - as he goes to the EU reasonably often. That seems an entirely sensible way for a market to work.
    don't hold your breath....another unicorn...
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    Those rumours were around even when I was there. I suspect a joint venture similar to AU. They did recently sell off NZ altogether.
  • MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    I saw some stats last year that said BT/EE had the most Huawei equipment out there.
    I think it’s all removed by end of 2022? They’ve been quite quick on that.

    I generally despise BT but legally separating Openreach seems to have been a superb decision. FTTP rollout is going well and they haven’t yet destroyed EE
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    There were rumours that Sky were trying to buy o2 a decade ago then the phone hacking story broke and put the kibosh on that. Did lead to Sky Mobile though.

    There's rumours that T Mobile want to get back into the UK market.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    I saw some stats last year that said BT/EE had the most Huawei equipment out there.
    Yes, they will suffer in the medium term too but aiui they have bought loads of Huawei equipment to continue installing it while they wait for their Ericsson contract to ramp up.
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    It's O2.

    No, they stylise it with a lower case o.
    No, you incel virgin! Check out their website:

    "Why choose O2?"
    "Here at O2, you can customise a plan to suit your needs"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/why-o2

    "The O2 - More than just a venue"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/sponsorship/the-o2

    "Find an O2 store"
    "Look for a store near you"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/storelocator
    Mate, I was advising them when they were mmo2.
  • Just wondering if a Brexiteer wants to explain why roaming charges coming back is a good thing

    There is a cost to roaming.

    Why should those who aren't roaming shoulder the costs of those who are?

    Why should people like TSE frequently going abroad and using a lot of roaming data, be paid for by those who are staying domestically and not accruing such costs?
    Philip, I used to work for Vodafone.

    There is no cost to Vodafone of you roaming from Vodafone UK onto Vodafone Germany, the costs are moved around the Group.
    Have you considered that things may have moved on since you used to work for Vodafone?

    Vodafone used to be quite ahead of the curve. They still don't any 5G coverage where I am and they're miles behind EE on rollout.

    Maybe paying Vodafone Germany instead of paying for infrastructure in the UK, is not a productive use of Vodafone UK subscribers fees. Have you considered that?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    There were rumours that Sky were trying to buy o2 a decade ago then the phone hacking story broke and put the kibosh on that. Did lead to Sky Mobile though.

    There's rumours that T Mobile want to get back into the UK market.
    Deutsch Telekom owns too much of BT to then bother around with buying some other network. I think a sale to Verizon Wireless of the US makes more sense, which would be a funny reversal of fortune.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,636
    edited August 2021
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    There were rumours that Sky were trying to buy o2 a decade ago then the phone hacking story broke and put the kibosh on that. Did lead to Sky Mobile though.

    There's rumours that T Mobile want to get back into the UK market.
    Deutsch Telekom owns too much of BT to then bother around with buying some other network. I think a sale to Verizon Wireless of the US makes more sense, which would be a funny reversal of fortune.
    I expect them to sell their shares in BT to Patrick Drahi.

    It amuses me that the BT Group is now valued less than the money they paid for EE in 2015.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    There were rumours that Sky were trying to buy o2 a decade ago then the phone hacking story broke and put the kibosh on that. Did lead to Sky Mobile though.

    There's rumours that T Mobile want to get back into the UK market.
    Sky Mobile is very good if you're a Sky subscriber anyway.

    I don't know if anyone else does the rolled over data thing now or if its just them, but we do not pay a penny for calls and texts on our phones and pay peanuts a month for data which goes into a pooled family pot. I think we've got well over 100GB now accrued in the pot.
  • https://news.virginmediao2.co.uk/about-us/

    "Hello, we’re
    Virgin Media O2"

    "We launched on 1 June 2021, combining the UK’s largest and most reliable mobile network with a broadband network offering the fastest widely-available broadband speeds."

    "Virgin Media O2 is a major investor in the UK. We employ around 18,000 people, have more than 430 retail stores and have committed to invest at least £10 billion over the next five years."

    "VMED O2 UK Limited ( Virgin Media O2 ) is registered in England and Wales. Registration number: 12580944"
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829
    edited August 2021

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    There were rumours that Sky were trying to buy o2 a decade ago then the phone hacking story broke and put the kibosh on that. Did lead to Sky Mobile though.

    There's rumours that T Mobile want to get back into the UK market.
    Deutsch Telekom owns too much of BT to then bother around with buying some other network. I think a sale to Verizon Wireless of the US makes more sense, which would be a funny reversal of fortune.
    I expect them to sell their share in BT to Patrick Drahi.

    It amuses me that the BT Group is now valued less than the money they paid for EE in 2015.
    Massive exercise of value destruction. Almost worse than Standard Life and Aberdeen. Though the latter is probably the worst merger of all time.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    Cyclefree said:

    I hope no one minds but I am posting this from the last tread

    Some time ago there was an extremely controversial discussion re the RNLI rescuing migrants in the English Channel and I said I would contact my local MP, who is also a personal friend, about the issue. He promised to seek clarification from the Home Office, and he has sent their reply to me today.

    I promised I would publish the Home Office response on receipt and accordingly I note it below

    From The Home Office 4th August 2021

    Thank you for your letter of the 15th July to the Home Secretary on behalf of one of your constituents about the Nationality and Borders Bill and the role of the RNLI. I am replying as Minister for Immigration Compliance and Justice.

    The Nationality and Borders Bill targets ruthless criminal gangs who put lives at risk by smuggling people across the Channel. It does not change the Government’s approach to existing obligations under international maritime law, including the duty to protect lives at sea. Organizations such as HM Coastguard and RNLI, and individuals, will be able to continue to rescue those in distress at sea as they do now.

    The changes are not intended to punish humanitarian actions or to deter people from seeking help from the authorities where they are being exploited and abused. The Government recognises and welcomes the desire of individuals and community groups to help.

    We will fully address these issues in policy guidance to ensure that proper account is taken of the circumstances and motives of any individual offering aid and assistance to someone they know have entered the UK illegally; or to be remaining without permission, and that any punitive action is proportionate and in the public interest.

    We have a proud track record of helping those facing persecution, oppression and tyranny and we stand by our moral and legal obligations to help innocent people fleeing cruelty around the world. Since 2015, we have resettled almost 25,000 men, women and children seeking refuge from persecution across the world – more than any EU country. We have also welcomed more than 29,000 close relatives through refugee family reunion. In 2019, the UK received more asylum applications from unaccompanied asylum-seeking children than any country in the EU and we were second in 2020

    I hope this response has clarified our proposals. Thank you for sharing your constituent’s concerns on this important matter.

    END

    As it was my header you sent to your MP, let me respond.

    1."The changes are not intended to punish humanitarian actions". If this is correct, then there is no need to remove the phrase "for gain" from the legislation. It is this removal which potentially catches organisations such as the RNLI. So why has that phrase been removed?It can only be to catch those not doing it for money. And this, I'm afraid, does potentially catch the RNLI and anyone else acting on a humanitarian basis.

    2. "Policy guidance" - as has been demonstrated multiple times over the last year and more, guidance is not law and does not change the law.
    3.
    4. There is a second point re this paragraph and it is this: the guidance the Home Office is proposing to issue will only relate to those: "offering aid and assistance to someone they know have entered the UK illegally; or to be remaining without permission." But that does not, please note, include those seeking to enter the country which is what we're concerned about. So this guidance doesn't even purport to address the RNLI's concerns.

    It simply does not address the issues raised in my header. If the government were genuine about wishing to exempt the RNLI and similar organisations from even the possibility of being caught by this legislative change, there is a very simple thing it can do: include the RNLI in the exemptions clause in the proposed legislation. The fact that it doesn't even mention this possibility in the response you have received is very telling - and not in a good way.

    An "F" for fail from me.

    But thank you for posting it.
    Thank you

    I will submit your response to my MP for his comments and will advise in due course

    I should say as a matter of courtesy if that is OK with you

    Of course.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    There were rumours that Sky were trying to buy o2 a decade ago then the phone hacking story broke and put the kibosh on that. Did lead to Sky Mobile though.

    There's rumours that T Mobile want to get back into the UK market.
    Deutsch Telekom owns too much of BT to then bother around with buying some other network. I think a sale to Verizon Wireless of the US makes more sense, which would be a funny reversal of fortune.
    I expect them to sell their share in BT to Patrick Drahi.

    It amuses me that the BT Group is now valued less than the money they paid for EE in 2015.
    Massive exercise of value destruction. Almost worse than Standard Life and Aberdeen. Though the latter is probably the worst merger of all time.
    AOL Time Warner is the worst merger in history.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I hope no one minds but I am posting this from the last tread

    Some time ago there was an extremely controversial discussion re the RNLI rescuing migrants in the English Channel and I said I would contact my local MP, who is also a personal friend, about the issue. He promised to seek clarification from the Home Office, and he has sent their reply to me today.

    I promised I would publish the Home Office response on receipt and accordingly I note it below

    From The Home Office 4th August 2021

    Thank you for your letter of the 15th July to the Home Secretary on behalf of one of your constituents about the Nationality and Borders Bill and the role of the RNLI. I am replying as Minister for Immigration Compliance and Justice.

    The Nationality and Borders Bill targets ruthless criminal gangs who put lives at risk by smuggling people across the Channel. It does not change the Government’s approach to existing obligations under international maritime law, including the duty to protect lives at sea. Organizations such as HM Coastguard and RNLI, and individuals, will be able to continue to rescue those in distress at sea as they do now.

    The changes are not intended to punish humanitarian actions or to deter people from seeking help from the authorities where they are being exploited and abused. The Government recognises and welcomes the desire of individuals and community groups to help.

    We will fully address these issues in policy guidance to ensure that proper account is taken of the circumstances and motives of any individual offering aid and assistance to someone they know have entered the UK illegally; or to be remaining without permission, and that any punitive action is proportionate and in the public interest.

    We have a proud track record of helping those facing persecution, oppression and tyranny and we stand by our moral and legal obligations to help innocent people fleeing cruelty around the world. Since 2015, we have resettled almost 25,000 men, women and children seeking refuge from persecution across the world – more than any EU country. We have also welcomed more than 29,000 close relatives through refugee family reunion. In 2019, the UK received more asylum applications from unaccompanied asylum-seeking children than any country in the EU and we were second in 2020

    I hope this response has clarified our proposals. Thank you for sharing your constituent’s concerns on this important matter.

    END

    As it was my header you sent to your MP, let me respond.

    1."The changes are not intended to punish humanitarian actions". If this is correct, then there is no need to remove the phrase "for gain" from the legislation. It is this removal which potentially catches organisations such as the RNLI. So why has that phrase been removed?It can only be to catch those not doing it for money. And this, I'm afraid, does potentially catch the RNLI and anyone else acting on a humanitarian basis.

    2. "Policy guidance" - as has been demonstrated multiple times over the last year and more, guidance is not law and does not change the law.
    3.
    4. There is a second point re this paragraph and it is this: the guidance the Home Office is proposing to issue will only relate to those: "offering aid and assistance to someone they know have entered the UK illegally; or to be remaining without permission." But that does not, please note, include those seeking to enter the country which is what we're concerned about. So this guidance doesn't even purport to address the RNLI's concerns.

    It simply does not address the issues raised in my header. If the government were genuine about wishing to exempt the RNLI and similar organisations from even the possibility of being caught by this legislative change, there is a very simple thing it can do: include the RNLI in the exemptions clause in the proposed legislation. The fact that it doesn't even mention this possibility in the response you have received is very telling - and not in a good way.

    An "F" for fail from me.

    But thank you for posting it.
    Thank you

    I will submit your response to my MP for his comments and will advise in due course

    I should say as a matter of courtesy if that is OK with you

    Of course.
    Thank you

    Will keep in touch
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    O/T My friend at a JCP says the universal credit uplift is definitely ending, the confirmation has started appearing in the journals of UC claimants telling them so.

    Lovely. That'll help boost the economy over the next few months not.
    It's going to look even more horrific if they keep the triple lock.
    Rishi will be able to use this - if confirmed - as a 'justification' to ditch the Triple Lock, as a 'fairness' measure, in the Budget. Ostensibly just for this review (2022/2023) but will end up being permanent. Which is fine by me, Triple Lock is not justified in any case.
    Can't see that happening myself. Think of the political maelstrom that engulfed George Osborne over the 'granny tax' and that change was rather innocuous as it turned out.
    Yeh, can't see it. Hammer the working class of Red Wall on UC AND hammer the pensioners of the Southern shires in same Budget?

    Both will be vetoed by Johnson.
    ....if he wants to be challenged by the 1922.

    There is no justification for the UC uplift.

    Nor is there justification for keeping the triple lock in existing form.

    Sound money Conservatives and freedom loving Conservatives are flexing their muscles again. We'll return to fiscal rectitude just as we've got rid of the covid theatre recent weeks.
    Only problem with that is if you lose voters in the Red Wall and lose pensioners by removing the triple lock then bang goes the Tory majority.

    There are not enough fiscal conservatives to win a general election with them alone.

    Note Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010 before the triple lock promise but did in 2015 after he introduced it.

    The next general election will also not have Corbyn to frighten the horses to the blues as in 2017 and 2019 nor will it have the promise of getting an EU referendum as in 2015 and getting Brexit done as in 2019, so the Tories cannot afford to give their core vote an excuse to switch
    Governing is about taking hard decisions and the triple lock is not sustainable and dealing with it is essential rather than worrying about opinion polls

    Ending the triple lock would also breach a manifesto commitment
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    O/T My friend at a JCP says the universal credit uplift is definitely ending, the confirmation has started appearing in the journals of UC claimants telling them so.

    Lovely. That'll help boost the economy over the next few months not.
    It's going to look even more horrific if they keep the triple lock.
    Rishi will be able to use this - if confirmed - as a 'justification' to ditch the Triple Lock, as a 'fairness' measure, in the Budget. Ostensibly just for this review (2022/2023) but will end up being permanent. Which is fine by me, Triple Lock is not justified in any case.
    Can't see that happening myself. Think of the political maelstrom that engulfed George Osborne over the 'granny tax' and that change was rather innocuous as it turned out.
    Yeh, can't see it. Hammer the working class of Red Wall on UC AND hammer the pensioners of the Southern shires in same Budget?

    Both will be vetoed by Johnson.
    ....if he wants to be challenged by the 1922.

    There is no justification for the UC uplift.

    Nor is there justification for keeping the triple lock in existing form.

    Sound money Conservatives and freedom loving Conservatives are flexing their muscles again. We'll return to fiscal rectitude just as we've got rid of the covid theatre recent weeks.
    Only problem with that is if you lose voters in the Red Wall and lose pensioners by removing the triple lock then bang goes the Tory majority.

    There are not enough fiscal conservatives to win a general election with them alone.

    Note Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010 before the triple lock promise but did in 2015 after he introduced it.

    The next general election will also not have Corbyn to frighten the horses to the blues as in 2017 and 2019 nor will it have the promise of getting an EU referendum as in 2015 and getting Brexit done as in 2019, so the Tories cannot afford to give their core vote an excuse to switch
    Governing is about taking hard decisions and the triple lock is not sustainable and dealing with it is essential rather than worrying about opinion polls

    Ending the triple lock would also breach a manifesto commitment
    So was reducing International Aid.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    There were rumours that Sky were trying to buy o2 a decade ago then the phone hacking story broke and put the kibosh on that. Did lead to Sky Mobile though.

    There's rumours that T Mobile want to get back into the UK market.
    Deutsch Telekom owns too much of BT to then bother around with buying some other network. I think a sale to Verizon Wireless of the US makes more sense, which would be a funny reversal of fortune.
    I expect them to sell their share in BT to Patrick Drahi.

    It amuses me that the BT Group is now valued less than the money they paid for EE in 2015.
    Massive exercise of value destruction. Almost worse than Standard Life and Aberdeen. Though the latter is probably the worst merger of all time.
    AOL Time Warner is the worst merger in history.
    Probably, yes. Time Warner/AT&T probably runs it close too. Wasn't that rated at $40bn in value now that TW is being merged with Discovery?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    BREAK: Jeffrey Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre has filed a lawsuit in the US saying the Duke of York sexually abused her when she was 17 (PA)

    https://twitter.com/darrengbnews/status/1424850603746934800
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    O/T My friend at a JCP says the universal credit uplift is definitely ending, the confirmation has started appearing in the journals of UC claimants telling them so.

    Lovely. That'll help boost the economy over the next few months not.
    It's going to look even more horrific if they keep the triple lock.
    Rishi will be able to use this - if confirmed - as a 'justification' to ditch the Triple Lock, as a 'fairness' measure, in the Budget. Ostensibly just for this review (2022/2023) but will end up being permanent. Which is fine by me, Triple Lock is not justified in any case.
    Can't see that happening myself. Think of the political maelstrom that engulfed George Osborne over the 'granny tax' and that change was rather innocuous as it turned out.
    Yeh, can't see it. Hammer the working class of Red Wall on UC AND hammer the pensioners of the Southern shires in same Budget?

    Both will be vetoed by Johnson.
    ....if he wants to be challenged by the 1922.

    There is no justification for the UC uplift.

    Nor is there justification for keeping the triple lock in existing form.

    Sound money Conservatives and freedom loving Conservatives are flexing their muscles again. We'll return to fiscal rectitude just as we've got rid of the covid theatre recent weeks.
    Only problem with that is if you lose voters in the Red Wall and lose pensioners by removing the triple lock then bang goes the Tory majority.

    There are not enough fiscal conservatives to win a general election with them alone.

    Note Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010 before the triple lock promise but did in 2015 after he introduced it.

    The next general election will also not have Corbyn to frighten the horses to the blues as in 2017 and 2019 nor will it have the promise of getting an EU referendum as in 2015 and getting Brexit done as in 2019, so the Tories cannot afford to give their core vote an excuse to switch
    Governing is about taking hard decisions and the triple lock is not sustainable and dealing with it is essential rather than worrying about opinion polls

    Ending the triple lock would also breach a manifesto commitment
    So was reducing International Aid.
    True but then cutting International Aid was reasonably popular, ending the triple lock will not be, especially amongst the Tory core vote of pensioners who voted Tory in 2019 based on the guarantee it would be protected
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    "The campaign to free Princess Latifa, the daughter of the ruler of Dubai, has been disbanded after a new image of her in Iceland was posted on Instagram."

    So either the campaign was successful, or wasn't needed in the first place.
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    It's O2.

    No, they stylise it with a lower case o.
    No, you incel virgin! Check out their website:

    "Why choose O2?"
    "Here at O2, you can customise a plan to suit your needs"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/why-o2

    "The O2 - More than just a venue"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/sponsorship/the-o2

    "Find an O2 store"
    "Look for a store near you"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/storelocator
    Mate, I was advising them when they were mmo2.
    And back then it was stylised as o2.

    Its changed since then, as their own website and branding makes abundantly clear. https://www.o2.co.uk/why-o2

    Go back far in enough and it was BT, yet BT is now EE, which was Orange and T-Mobile were rivals to BT's o2.

    Almost as if the market changes.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    O/T My friend at a JCP says the universal credit uplift is definitely ending, the confirmation has started appearing in the journals of UC claimants telling them so.

    Lovely. That'll help boost the economy over the next few months not.
    It's going to look even more horrific if they keep the triple lock.
    Rishi will be able to use this - if confirmed - as a 'justification' to ditch the Triple Lock, as a 'fairness' measure, in the Budget. Ostensibly just for this review (2022/2023) but will end up being permanent. Which is fine by me, Triple Lock is not justified in any case.
    Can't see that happening myself. Think of the political maelstrom that engulfed George Osborne over the 'granny tax' and that change was rather innocuous as it turned out.
    Yeh, can't see it. Hammer the working class of Red Wall on UC AND hammer the pensioners of the Southern shires in same Budget?

    Both will be vetoed by Johnson.
    ....if he wants to be challenged by the 1922.

    There is no justification for the UC uplift.

    Nor is there justification for keeping the triple lock in existing form.

    Sound money Conservatives and freedom loving Conservatives are flexing their muscles again. We'll return to fiscal rectitude just as we've got rid of the covid theatre recent weeks.
    Only problem with that is if you lose voters in the Red Wall and lose pensioners by removing the triple lock then bang goes the Tory majority.

    There are not enough fiscal conservatives to win a general election with them alone.

    Note Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010 before the triple lock promise but did in 2015 after he introduced it.

    The next general election will also not have Corbyn to frighten the horses to the blues as in 2017 and 2019 nor will it have the promise of getting an EU referendum as in 2015 and getting Brexit done as in 2019, so the Tories cannot afford to give their core vote an excuse to switch
    Governing is about taking hard decisions and the triple lock is not sustainable and dealing with it is essential rather than worrying about opinion polls

    Ending the triple lock would also breach a manifesto commitment
    Covid requires fairness and if the UC uplift is to go so should the triple lock

    And I would be very surprised if Rishi did not make adjustments and am pleased he is the COE and not yourself
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965

    "The campaign to free Princess Latifa, the daughter of the ruler of Dubai, has been disbanded after a new image of her in Iceland was posted on Instagram."

    So either the campaign was successful, or wasn't needed in the first place.

    Iceland a bit downmarket for a Princess?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015

    BREAK: Jeffrey Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre has filed a lawsuit in the US saying the Duke of York sexually abused her when she was 17 (PA)

    https://twitter.com/darrengbnews/status/1424850603746934800

    That'll make him sweat.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    O/T My friend at a JCP says the universal credit uplift is definitely ending, the confirmation has started appearing in the journals of UC claimants telling them so.

    Lovely. That'll help boost the economy over the next few months not.
    It's going to look even more horrific if they keep the triple lock.
    Rishi will be able to use this - if confirmed - as a 'justification' to ditch the Triple Lock, as a 'fairness' measure, in the Budget. Ostensibly just for this review (2022/2023) but will end up being permanent. Which is fine by me, Triple Lock is not justified in any case.
    Can't see that happening myself. Think of the political maelstrom that engulfed George Osborne over the 'granny tax' and that change was rather innocuous as it turned out.
    Yeh, can't see it. Hammer the working class of Red Wall on UC AND hammer the pensioners of the Southern shires in same Budget?

    Both will be vetoed by Johnson.
    ....if he wants to be challenged by the 1922.

    There is no justification for the UC uplift.

    Nor is there justification for keeping the triple lock in existing form.

    Sound money Conservatives and freedom loving Conservatives are flexing their muscles again. We'll return to fiscal rectitude just as we've got rid of the covid theatre recent weeks.
    Only problem with that is if you lose voters in the Red Wall and lose pensioners by removing the triple lock then bang goes the Tory majority.

    There are not enough fiscal conservatives to win a general election with them alone.

    Note Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010 before the triple lock promise but did in 2015 after he introduced it.

    The next general election will also not have Corbyn to frighten the horses to the blues as in 2017 and 2019 nor will it have the promise of getting an EU referendum as in 2015 and getting Brexit done as in 2019, so the Tories cannot afford to give their core vote an excuse to switch
    Governing is about taking hard decisions and the triple lock is not sustainable and dealing with it is essential rather than worrying about opinion polls

    Ending the triple lock would also breach a manifesto commitment
    Covid requires fairness and if the UC uplift is to go so should the triple lock

    And I would be very surprised if Rishi did not make adjustments and am pleased he is the COE and not yourself
    100% agreed.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    There were rumours that Sky were trying to buy o2 a decade ago then the phone hacking story broke and put the kibosh on that. Did lead to Sky Mobile though.

    There's rumours that T Mobile want to get back into the UK market.
    Deutsch Telekom owns too much of BT to then bother around with buying some other network. I think a sale to Verizon Wireless of the US makes more sense, which would be a funny reversal of fortune.
    I expect them to sell their share in BT to Patrick Drahi.

    It amuses me that the BT Group is now valued less than the money they paid for EE in 2015.
    Massive exercise of value destruction. Almost worse than Standard Life and Aberdeen. Though the latter is probably the worst merger of all time.
    AOL Time Warner is the worst merger in history.
    Probably, yes. Time Warner/AT&T probably runs it close too. Wasn't that rated at $40bn in value now that TW is being merged with Discovery?
    Yes that's a shocker.
  • BREAK: Jeffrey Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre has filed a lawsuit in the US saying the Duke of York sexually abused her when she was 17 (PA)

    https://twitter.com/darrengbnews/status/1424850603746934800

    Now that is sensational to be honest

    I really feel for the Queen at this time
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    Come to the red team!
    I'm with EE and o2.

    Vodafone really are shite oop North.
    Always good to go with the network that works for you. Sadly O2 have a lot of capacity issues.
    Prior to the advent of Wifi calling the only network that worked inside my house was o2. EE/Orange would be no bars.

    I'm getting 500 Mbps speed with o2 5G in parts of Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester.

    EE set the record with over 800 Mbps for me though.
    Fair enough, at the Oval the other day the only network that didn't work was O2 due to a lack of useable spectrum. EE and Vodafone were working fine.

    O2 and Vodafone coverage is broadly the same due to Cornerstone, usually I find them the best indoors. EE wins on pure speed and will probably in the longer term be the best overall with the spectrum they've got plus the BT Group being intent on putting in lots of investment.
    I think the Virgin deal is going to improve o2 (backhaul isn't it?)

    I did some 5G tests around my workplace a few weeks ago

    EE - 480 Mbps

    o2 - 300 Mbps

    Vodafone - 12 Mbps (on 4G)
    O2/Vodafone 5G isn't shared. Vodafone is quite far behind on 5G roll out all over Europe and now they're betting on OpenRAN which is unproven at best. They made their bed with Huawei for 4G and now they need to spend shit loads ripping and replacing. Not just here but all across Europe too. I don't think Vodafone's 5G outside of London is going to be any good until the end of next year.
    Vodafone 5G rollout in the UK is a lot wider than O2, I suspect it won’t last though.

    I think 5G longer term O2 and EE will lead and Vodafone will suffer. They don’t seem to have purchased a lot of spectrum which I find puzzling.
    There are rumours that Vodafone are looking for a buyer for their UK network now that they're never going to properly compete with Sky and Virgin Media. It could well be related to that.
    There were rumours that Sky were trying to buy o2 a decade ago then the phone hacking story broke and put the kibosh on that. Did lead to Sky Mobile though.

    There's rumours that T Mobile want to get back into the UK market.
    Deutsch Telekom owns too much of BT to then bother around with buying some other network. I think a sale to Verizon Wireless of the US makes more sense, which would be a funny reversal of fortune.
    I expect them to sell their share in BT to Patrick Drahi.

    It amuses me that the BT Group is now valued less than the money they paid for EE in 2015.
    Massive exercise of value destruction. Almost worse than Standard Life and Aberdeen. Though the latter is probably the worst merger of all time.
    AOL Time Warner is the worst merger in history.
    It used to be Daimler Chrysler. A lesson to analysts in value destruction.

    Successful mergers are rare beasts.

    Meanwhile I'm on Three and I think they're great. Coverage everywhere I've been and, so far, no EU roaming charges planned.
  • Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    It's O2.

    No, they stylise it with a lower case o.
    No, you incel virgin! Check out their website:

    "Why choose O2?"
    "Here at O2, you can customise a plan to suit your needs"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/why-o2

    "The O2 - More than just a venue"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/sponsorship/the-o2

    "Find an O2 store"
    "Look for a store near you"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/storelocator
    Mate, I was advising them when they were mmo2.
    And back then it was stylised as o2.

    Its changed since then, as their own website and branding makes abundantly clear. https://www.o2.co.uk/why-o2

    Go back far in enough and it was BT, yet BT is now EE, which was Orange and T-Mobile were rivals to BT's o2.

    Almost as if the market changes.
    I'll let you into a little secret it is still stylised as o2 internally at Telefonica.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    O/T My friend at a JCP says the universal credit uplift is definitely ending, the confirmation has started appearing in the journals of UC claimants telling them so.

    Lovely. That'll help boost the economy over the next few months not.
    It's going to look even more horrific if they keep the triple lock.
    Rishi will be able to use this - if confirmed - as a 'justification' to ditch the Triple Lock, as a 'fairness' measure, in the Budget. Ostensibly just for this review (2022/2023) but will end up being permanent. Which is fine by me, Triple Lock is not justified in any case.
    Can't see that happening myself. Think of the political maelstrom that engulfed George Osborne over the 'granny tax' and that change was rather innocuous as it turned out.
    Yeh, can't see it. Hammer the working class of Red Wall on UC AND hammer the pensioners of the Southern shires in same Budget?

    Both will be vetoed by Johnson.
    ....if he wants to be challenged by the 1922.

    There is no justification for the UC uplift.

    Nor is there justification for keeping the triple lock in existing form.

    Sound money Conservatives and freedom loving Conservatives are flexing their muscles again. We'll return to fiscal rectitude just as we've got rid of the covid theatre recent weeks.
    Only problem with that is if you lose voters in the Red Wall and lose pensioners by removing the triple lock then bang goes the Tory majority.

    There are not enough fiscal conservatives to win a general election with them alone.

    Note Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010 before the triple lock promise but did in 2015 after he introduced it.

    The next general election will also not have Corbyn to frighten the horses to the blues as in 2017 and 2019 nor will it have the promise of getting an EU referendum as in 2015 and getting Brexit done as in 2019, so the Tories cannot afford to give their core vote an excuse to switch
    Governing is about taking hard decisions and the triple lock is not sustainable and dealing with it is essential rather than worrying about opinion polls

    Ending the triple lock would also breach a manifesto commitment
    So was reducing International Aid.
    True but then cutting International Aid was reasonably popular, ending the triple lock will not be, especially amongst the Tory core vote of pensioners who voted Tory in 2019 based on the guarantee it would be protected
    You do not do something because it is popular you do it because it is the right thing to do
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843
    edited August 2021

    Full disclosure, in a past job o2 were clients of ours.

    It's O2.

    No, they stylise it with a lower case o.
    No, you incel virgin! Check out their website:

    "Why choose O2?"
    "Here at O2, you can customise a plan to suit your needs"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/why-o2

    "The O2 - More than just a venue"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/sponsorship/the-o2

    "Find an O2 store"
    "Look for a store near you"

    https://www.o2.co.uk/storelocator
    Mate, I was advising them when they were mmo2.
    And back then it was stylised as o2.

    Its changed since then, as their own website and branding makes abundantly clear. https://www.o2.co.uk/why-o2

    Go back far in enough and it was BT, yet BT is now EE, which was Orange and T-Mobile were rivals to BT's o2.

    Almost as if the market changes.
    I'll let you into a little secret it is still stylised as o2 internally at Telefonica.
    'Course it is, TSE. 'Course it is!

    VMED O2 UK Limited ( Virgin Media O2 ) is registered in England and Wales. Registration number: 12580944

    https://www.o2.co.uk/virgin-media-o2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEnhsOl_Hzs&feature=emb_imp_woyt
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    BREAK: Jeffrey Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre has filed a lawsuit in the US saying the Duke of York sexually abused her when she was 17 (PA)

    https://twitter.com/darrengbnews/status/1424850603746934800

    17 is the age of consent in New York
  • HYUFD said:

    BREAK: Jeffrey Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre has filed a lawsuit in the US saying the Duke of York sexually abused her when she was 17 (PA)

    https://twitter.com/darrengbnews/status/1424850603746934800

    17 is the age of consent in New York
    What has that to do with an allegation of sexual abuse

    Do you ever think before you post
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829
    Dido Harding sacked by Javid from what it looks like.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    BREAK: Jeffrey Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre has filed a lawsuit in the US saying the Duke of York sexually abused her when she was 17 (PA)

    https://twitter.com/darrengbnews/status/1424850603746934800

    Now that is sensational to be honest

    I really feel for the Queen at this time
    It's not the first time someone tried to do this in a US court. I believe it was in a Florida court but certainly not a NY one. The last time the judge threw it out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    BREAK: Jeffrey Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre has filed a lawsuit in the US saying the Duke of York sexually abused her when she was 17 (PA)

    https://twitter.com/darrengbnews/status/1424850603746934800

    17 is the age of consent in New York
    What has that to do with an allegation of sexual abuse

    Do you ever think before you post
    Well for starters it means it was not criminal by reason of age, so she would have to prove sexual relations without her consent which is much harder to do
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited August 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Dido Harding sacked by Javid from what it looks like.

    BBC News - Test and Trace boss Dido Harding to step down from NHS role
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58151615

    You would never know from this that the UK is actually world leading in testing, which is massively unfair. The tracing system now thats a different matter, although some of us said from the get go that it was a fools errand unless you go down the state sponsored spying approach.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,636
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAK: Jeffrey Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre has filed a lawsuit in the US saying the Duke of York sexually abused her when she was 17 (PA)

    https://twitter.com/darrengbnews/status/1424850603746934800

    17 is the age of consent in New York
    What has that to do with an allegation of sexual abuse

    Do you ever think before you post
    Well for starters it means it was not criminal
    Oh right, so if it is above the age of consent it cannot be sexual abuse/assault.

    Must let all those rapists in prison etc know that.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    HYUFD said:

    BREAK: Jeffrey Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre has filed a lawsuit in the US saying the Duke of York sexually abused her when she was 17 (PA)

    https://twitter.com/darrengbnews/status/1424850603746934800

    17 is the age of consent in New York
    There's an age of consent for being sexually abused?
  • MaxPB said:

    Dido Harding sacked by Javid from what it looks like.

    BBC News - Test and Trace boss Dido Harding to step down from NHS role
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58151615

    You would never know from this that the UK is actually world leading in testing, whicj is massively unfair. The tracing system now thats a different matter.
    But a bit rubbish at the trace element.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    MaxPB said:

    Dido Harding sacked by Javid from what it looks like.

    BBC News - Test and Trace boss Dido Harding to step down from NHS role
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58151615

    You would never know from this that the UK is actually world leading in testing, whicj is massively unfair. The tracing system now thats a different matter.
    But a bit rubbish at the trace element.
    And didn't even bother with the isolate bit of it.
This discussion has been closed.