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MIND THE GAP: HOW LONG WILL BORIS JOHNSON SERVE AS PRIME MINISTER? – politicalbetting.com

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968

    MattW said:

    Interesting wine debate.

    Looking it up, we are one of the top 10 wine exporters in the world - or thereabouts.

    Export volume is 3 or 4 times UK wine production, so clearly a lot of bulk->bottle going on.

    I'd surmise that quite a lot of that is Australian, as stuff we drink from Oz gets here that way. I wonder the impact of the FTA on that?


    There is a large U.K. wine brokerage trade.
    I think London may even be the world’s biggest centre for such.

    Mostly France > London > Rest of World.
    For how much longer?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,079

    tlg86 said:

    Its interesting that in nearly every event in athletics, the WR now is much better than 20-30 years ago (if we exclude the couple of female events where one was juiced of their tits and the other was errrh a man)...but high jump, todays competitors in both men and women still can't get even get near the WR from 30+ years ago.

    Jonathan Edwards still holds the triple jump record.
    Yes, good call. Even he couldn't get close to it after he did it.

    Actually, long jump still stands as well from 30 years ago. Do they get close?
    not really.

    https://www.worldathletics.org/records/all-time-toplists/jumps/long-jump/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=world&windReading=regular&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1900-01-01&lastDay=2021-08-01

    before the current record the previous one was Bob Beamon from 1968 (and not that much different)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,831
    I found [70] to [90] in the judgement utterly damning.

    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2021hcj002.pdf?sfvrsn=0

    The judges rejected most of the Crown complaints but still found Murray to be deliberately trying to identify the accusers.

    you don't write a "parody" then tell everyone to very carefully read between the lines and expect to get away with it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 10,078

    MattW said:

    Interesting wine debate.

    Looking it up, we are one of the top 10 wine exporters in the world - or thereabouts.

    Export volume is 3 or 4 times UK wine production, so clearly a lot of bulk->bottle going on.

    I'd surmise that quite a lot of that is Australian, as stuff we drink from Oz gets here that way. I wonder the impact of the FTA on that?


    There is a large U.K. wine brokerage trade.
    I think London may even be the world’s biggest centre for such.

    Mostly France > London > Rest of World.
    For how much longer?
    Thankfully protected to some extent by the government’s (belated) decision to scrap import certification.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,661
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    I didn’t ignore it.
    NZ mostly imports cars from Japan, but luxury marques are of course importer to some extent from the U.K.

    I just was interested in your idea that NZ would be importing “milk, venison, brussel sprouts”.

    Btw, according to the trade stats Australia simply doesn’t import brussel sprouts. NZ imported about £60k worth last year — from Australia.

    The U.K. imports much more brussel sprouts than it exports.

    Would you like me to do milk now?
    No we wouldn’t. That’s a whole udder conversation.
    Butter not go there.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,263
    edited August 2021

    MattW said:

    Interesting wine debate.

    Looking it up, we are one of the top 10 wine exporters in the world - or thereabouts.

    Export volume is 3 or 4 times UK wine production, so clearly a lot of bulk->bottle going on.

    I'd surmise that quite a lot of that is Australian, as stuff we drink from Oz gets here that way. I wonder the impact of the FTA on that?


    There is a large U.K. wine brokerage trade.
    I think London may even be the world’s biggest centre for such.

    Mostly France > London > Rest of World.
    For how much longer?
    Thankfully protected to some extent by the government’s (belated) decision to scrap import certification.
    Yes, that bit of EU protectionism can go now that we don't need to protect French winemakers from new world wines.
  • ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    I didn’t ignore it.
    NZ mostly imports cars from Japan, but luxury marques are of course importer to some extent from the U.K.

    I just was interested in your idea that NZ would be importing “milk, venison, brussel sprouts”.

    Btw, according to the trade stats Australia simply doesn’t import brussel sprouts. NZ imported about £60k worth last year — from Australia.

    The U.K. imports much more brussel sprouts than it exports.

    Would you like me to do milk now?
    No we wouldn’t. That’s a whole udder conversation.
    No whey!!!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,408
    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Colleagues, this is bordering on bullying. Apart from the fact that HYUFD is standing up for himself, albeit with increasing wild and insupportable statements.

    But, car manufacture stopped in Australasia because the Japanese were doing it better and cheaper. And shipping costs from Japan are lower.
    The UK is the 6th biggest car exporter to Australia already after Japan, Thailand, South Korea, Germany and the US
    https://www.caradvice.com.au/667954/passports-please-where-do-australias-cars-come-from/
    And the tariffs are? Secondly, why were we behind another EU member (when the figures were compiled).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,762
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    An alternative view on the Craig Murray case:

    https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2021/07/31/on-forms-of-journalism/

    That really is a must read.

    Fourth the idea is bounced around and around that other journalists also ‘leaked’ the names of witnesses but went unpunished. Murray and others consistently point to Dani Garavelli as one of these citing a Panelbase poll. What’s less often noted is that Craig Murray wrote and paid for the question to be added to the poll. In other cases journalists or other individuals may have inadvertently released information and when warned then instantly apologised and deleted such material. Not so the Ambassador who when warned pressed on. There is quite a difference.
    Peatworrier got a lot of pelters for this tweet but I think it’s spot on. Murray’s actually got what he wanted, attention and Assangesque martyrdom for the cause, so a non custodial sentence might have been a better choice.

    https://twitter.com/peatworrier/status/1420845010900197379?s=21
    I read Craig Murray's pieces on the trial. They did not allow me to identify any of the complainers. Why not? Because I did not have the other parts of the jigsaw or other information which would allow me to determine the significance of what he reported. This, to me, is the fundamental problem with jigsaw identification. If it is to be determined by the Court with the benefit of hindsight and with a lot of other information that is not even in the public domain how do you anticipate that you may be offending? The answer is that you are extremely cautious and ambiguities, anomalies or just plain lies of witnesses in such cases are simply not reported because of the chilling effect of a potential jigsaw identification.

    The allegation in this case is that a number of women who were connected to the SNP in various ways along with some civil servants very close to the current First Minister got together and conspired to produce sufficient evidence that Salmond was prosecuted in the High Court. I must emphasise that I have no idea whether such an allegation is true or not but it is a very serious allegation. Where it is demonstrated that people claim to have been sexually molested at a dinner which there is no record of them even being at certain issues arise. Have they simply made a mistake as to the date or the occasion (the most likely explanation)? Have they made it up (possible, but much less common)? Have they contrived with others to create a case that damns the person alleged to be responsible (far fetched but not impossible)?

    The problem is that Murray was convinced that the last was at least a factor in this trial. He tried to show that but it is impossible to do without giving some context to the allegation. It is that context that forms the basis of the jigsaw identification.

    I remain appalled that the Supreme Court has declined to look at this. There were obvious flaws in the Court's judgment (for example, he was found guilty of something not explicitly in the petition). It is a considerable extension of the s4 with uncertain boundaries and in my view it is incompatible with Article 10 of ECHR. Definitive guidance from the Supreme Court would have been helpful in clarifying the rules and the boundaries. They may have upheld the conviction, possibly on more limited grounds. But they really should have considered it.
    Who decided whether the supreme court examines something? Do the learned judges just read the papers and interfere where they see fit, or is there some form of request process?
    The rules now are that you firstly apply to the Court that has dealt with the matter for permission to appeal to the Supreme Court. That application involved a hearing at which Murray was represented by the Dean of Faculty, Roddy Dunlop QC. The application was refused. You then apply to the Supreme Court itself who can choose to hear the case if they consider it in the public interest or if it raises a matter of sufficient importance. My experience of that predates the current rules but my understanding is that this is a paper exercise with a written submission. That has also now been refused.
    Refused by whom, the SC?
    Yes. There will be a written decision confirming the refusal but that is normally very brief.
    Is that an end to it then?
    Apart from the 'Lawyerly Lizard People are all in it together and just like the SNP are Unionists' theories of course.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,474
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    There is actually a notion that sprouts taste better after the first frosts. I am not sure if this is (a) true (b) special pleading which may or may not be true and /or (c) applicable only to the cultivars grown in the UK.
    Yes, parsnips too as the frost sweetens them by breaking up starches.

    But does anyone eat sprouts apart from Christmas dinner?
    Yepp. One of my favourite vegetables. They are especially good when fried, preferably pretty hard so they char a bit.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500
    spudgfsh said:

    tlg86 said:

    Its interesting that in nearly every event in athletics, the WR now is much better than 20-30 years ago (if we exclude the couple of female events where one was juiced of their tits and the other was errrh a man)...but high jump, todays competitors in both men and women still can't get even get near the WR from 30+ years ago.

    Jonathan Edwards still holds the triple jump record.
    Yes, good call. Even he couldn't get close to it after he did it.

    Actually, long jump still stands as well from 30 years ago. Do they get close?
    not really.

    https://www.worldathletics.org/records/all-time-toplists/jumps/long-jump/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=world&windReading=regular&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1900-01-01&lastDay=2021-08-01

    before the current record the previous one was Bob Beamon from 1968 (and not that much different)
    Off feel one of the problems seems to be modern jumpers get injured very regularly. Someone like Carl Lewis was very rarely injured.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,443

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    There is actually a notion that sprouts taste better after the first frosts. I am not sure if this is (a) true (b) special pleading which may or may not be true and /or (c) applicable only to the cultivars grown in the UK.
    Yes, parsnips too as the frost sweetens them by breaking up starches.

    But does anyone eat sprouts apart from Christmas dinner?
    Yepp. One of my favourite vegetables. They are especially good when fried, preferably pretty hard so they char a bit.
    This is going to be like the "what poncy gits actually bother to boil chicken bones?" thread.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,813
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss says the UK is on the verge of a trade deal with New Zealand

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1421744617020608513?s=20

    Oh, thank God for that!...We are all saved.....
    More seriously, it is another step towards being accepted into the CPTPP.

    Which will really upset some people, for a fairly obvious reason.
    The only thing outstanding is the small matter of diverting all our trade through the Pitcairns.
    thankfully we should be able to purchase cabbages from Christmas Island, potatoes from Pitcairn Island, asperagus from Australia, tomatoes from Tahiti, (anymore alliterative veg?), once our farming industry goes to the wall.
    It won't go to the wall, there will be great demand in Australia and New Zealand for British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg
    Evidence? Seem to recall more than adequate beef when I've been to Aussie; indeed they export it to SE Asia and Japan. New Zealand, as I recall, has excellent, and excellent supplies of milk. Can't imagine that our fruit can compete with theirs, either.
    What you haven't mentioned is that the Aussies were quite keen to replace the sales of wine to China that they've recently lost.
    We also produce our own beef and lamb it may surprise you to know and there are excellent English sparkling wines as well now but no reason consumers both here and in Australia and New Zealand cannot have more choice and removal of tariffs, unless you are anti free trade.

    Not quite, my West Essex friend. You claimed that Aussies and Kiwis would be falling over themselves to buy, and I quote, 'British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg'.
    Which I doubted, and sought evidence from you..

    I have no problem with the concept of Free Trade, although it is not necessarily the answer to all problems and does create some.
    For example an increase in the availability, and decrease in the price, of Aussie sparkling wine might well have a negative effect on our own local industry.
    You are also forgetting it is not all one way traffic, our exports to Australia will also be cheaper.

    Whisky, Brussels Sprouts, venison, cider etc all relatively rare in Australia and New Zealand and ripe for export from the UK to them.

    Surely Australia and New Zealand will get their Brussels Sprouts from the EU, not from us? The clue's in the name.
    The EU does not have a trade deal with Australia and New Zealand yet, they do with us now, so our Brussels Sprouts will be cheaper.

    There are huge opportunities for British Brussels Sprout farmers now in Australia and New Zealand
    I have liked that because I haven't laughed so much for ages.

    Will these be fresh or frozen? Traditionally a Christmas veg which will get there after Christmas. Even we don't eat them from frozen out of season. If they are interested why doesn't New Zealand grow them themselves?

    You are planning to export a bulky cheap vegetable half way around the world that they can grow themselves if they wanted to.

    There must be so many other opportunities you could have picked that are better.
    I would have thought out of all British food and drink products Brussels Sprouts are amongst the least likely to be home produced or grown in Australia and New Zealand, thus it will have amongst the highest demand for British exporters of it to there.

    Especially as we now have a trade deal with them unlike the EU
    They grow the things in profusion in Australia, as 30 seconds on this thing called Google shows.

    https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/how-to-make-brussels-sprouts-taste-delicious/12299690

    And when the cost of carbon tax is added, forget exporting to Oz.
    That is a recipe for Brussels Sprouts, not a link to vast numbers of Brussels Sprouts farmers in Australia. Brussels Sprouts are one of the least grown vegetables in Australia, in fact not even in the top 15 Australian vegetable crops
    https://ausveg.com.au/resources/economics-statistics/australian-vegetable-production-statistics/

    EU Brussels Sprout exporters of course would have to deal with high tariffs, unlike the UK, as well as a carbon tax (though of course a carbon tax would equally apply to Australian imports here in time)
    Lets look at exports then

    https://www.worldstopexports.com/top-brussels-sprouts-exports-by-country/
    Yes, we are a top 10 Brussels sprouts exporter unlike Australia and New Zealand
    Australia exports more Brussels Sprouts per capita than we do. You can never simply admit that you were mistaken?

    It's so incredibly childish.
    I was not mistaken, we export more Brussels Sprouts than Australia and New Zealand do.

    If you were talking carrots you might have had a point, there Australia is a top 10 exporter unlike us

    https://www.tridge.com/intelligences/carrot/export
    You are wrong.

    On its own that's fine. Life is a series of mistakes. As someone said on here a day or two ago, we all make them.

    What is contemptible is that you refuse ever to admit to error. It is impossible to have any sort of public debate if someone will not admit to error when confronted with the facts.

    You are everything that is wrong with politics in this country, and democracies more generally.
    Well if I continue to annoy left liberals like you all to the good, I will carry on with gusto! I would be more concerned if I wasn't.

    I was also not wrong, the UK is a top 10 brussels sprout exporter unlike Australia as even your own link confirmed
    There's a massive difference between annoying me by holding political views I dislike, or worse, by coming up with good arguments for political views that I dislike - as several of the right-wing posters on here manage - and annoying me by failing to observe a basic principle of public debate - not to lie about the facts.

    The first is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the second will be the death of it.

    And on a personal level it is a sign of being a weak-minded coward not to be willing to admit to mistakes. You're pathetic.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 10,078

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Colleagues, this is bordering on bullying. Apart from the fact that HYUFD is standing up for himself, albeit with increasing wild and insupportable statements.

    But, car manufacture stopped in Australasia because the Japanese were doing it better and cheaper. And shipping costs from Japan are lower.
    The UK is the 6th biggest car exporter to Australia already after Japan, Thailand, South Korea, Germany and the US
    https://www.caradvice.com.au/667954/passports-please-where-do-australias-cars-come-from/
    And the tariffs are? Secondly, why were we behind another EU member (when the figures were compiled).
    We are behind Germany in car exports by a massive margin. No surprise we should be exporting fewer cars to Australia.

    Post Brexit, all things equal, our car export industry will decline further and will focus on the domestic market.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,136
    edited August 2021
    MaxPB said:

    That BMX gold routine from Charlotte Worthington was incredible. Max Whitlock as well.

    Good return from our BMX team, two golds, a silver and a bronze.

    Between them and the swimmers they've really managed make up for our rowing failure.

    Athletics is going to be a massive bust.....need to stick to events which involves swimming or tiny bikes.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 10,078
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,691
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    There is actually a notion that sprouts taste better after the first frosts. I am not sure if this is (a) true (b) special pleading which may or may not be true and /or (c) applicable only to the cultivars grown in the UK.
    Yes, parsnips too as the frost sweetens them by breaking up starches.

    But does anyone eat sprouts apart from Christmas dinner?
    Yepp. One of my favourite vegetables. They are especially good when fried, preferably pretty hard so they char a bit.
    This is going to be like the "what poncy gits actually bother to boil chicken bones?" thread.
    Send the man some pickled herring.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968
    Bye for a while. Things to do.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,779
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD’s claim that we don’t have brussel sprouts or venison in NZ is frankly certifiable.

    It’s so stupid he should be subject to some kind of voter recall in Epping-on-Brexit.

    NZ does import small amounts of Colston Basset stilton. For sale in the five or six very expensive delis the population can support.

    That’s about it.

    Premium beer and spirits will be a different matter.

    It may surprise you to know we even have lamb and sheep farms here in the UK, just not as big percentage wise as in New Zealand.

    However as I have already shown brussels sprouts are not produced in great numbers in Australia certainly and as I mentioned earlier if you had checked cider and whiskey exports would also be a great opportunity for British producers for export to Australia and New Zealand
    I am aware yes.
    They will no doubt suffer under the industrial-scale, very efficient production of NZ lamb.

    Not a single brussel sprout will ever be exported from the U.K. to NZ. Only a true nutter would think so.
    Not at all and the idea that vast quantities of New Zealand lamb will be exported to the UK without travel constraints while not a single British Brussels Sprout will ever be on a Kiwi dinner plate is absurd
    a) Lamb is an expensive product, brussels aren't
    b) Lamb freezes well, brussels don't
    c) Australia/NZ are a long long way way making both a) and b) very important
    Hence consumers are more likely to buy more brussels sprouts than they currently do if tariffs are removed on them than more lamb than they already do if tariffs are removed on them, as imported lamb will still be pretty expensive even without tariffs.

    There is a reason chicken and poultry are now the most eaten British meats, not red meat like lamb and beef, as well as the health factors it is cheaper


    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/white-meat-red-more-popular-uk-britain-beef-chicken-turkey-lamb-pork-a7816041.html
    You are absolutely barking. You did not understand a word of what I said.

    Why would a New Zealander buy an expensive frozen brussel sprout when they could grow fresh cheaper ones?

    To get there it will have to be frozen and because sprouts are a low cost item the overhead of transport will be a significant percentage. Lamb is an expensive item so the cost of transport is a much lower percentage of the cost, so if you can produce it cheaper you can get a competitive price even with the transport. Hence we buy NZ lamb. It obviously doesn't work for brussels because of their low value.

    See my question re Kenya green beans whereas we don't get brussels from elsewhere out of season.
    As New Zealand barely produces any brussels sprouts of any significant quantities, we do produce a fair amount of lamb in the UK however, though it is not our most popular meat.

    Lamb is an expensive meat with or without transportation costs, hence British consumers don't buy much of it relative to say chicken anyway so they are not suddenly going to buy New Zealand lamb with every meal.

    No you either don't read or don't understand what is typed so I am stopping. It is pointless.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,408
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,646
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD’s claim that we don’t have brussel sprouts or venison in NZ is frankly certifiable.

    It’s so stupid he should be subject to some kind of voter recall in Epping-on-Brexit.

    NZ does import small amounts of Colston Basset stilton. For sale in the five or six very expensive delis the population can support.

    That’s about it.

    Premium beer and spirits will be a different matter.

    It may surprise you to know we even have lamb and sheep farms here in the UK, just not as big percentage wise as in New Zealand.

    However as I have already shown brussels sprouts are not produced in great numbers in Australia certainly and as I mentioned earlier if you had checked cider and whiskey exports would also be a great opportunity for British producers for export to Australia and New Zealand
    I am aware yes.
    They will no doubt suffer under the industrial-scale, very efficient production of NZ lamb.

    Not a single brussel sprout will ever be exported from the U.K. to NZ. Only a true nutter would think so.
    Not at all and the idea that vast quantities of New Zealand lamb will be exported to the UK without travel constraints while not a single British Brussels Sprout will ever be on a Kiwi dinner plate is absurd
    a) Lamb is an expensive product, brussels aren't
    b) Lamb freezes well, brussels don't
    c) Australia/NZ are a long long way way making both a) and b) very important
    Hence consumers are more likely to buy more brussels sprouts than they currently do if tariffs are removed on them than more lamb than they already do if tariffs are removed on them, as imported lamb will still be pretty expensive even without tariffs.

    There is a reason chicken and poultry are now the most eaten British meats, not red meat like lamb and beef, as well as the health factors it is cheaper


    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/white-meat-red-more-popular-uk-britain-beef-chicken-turkey-lamb-pork-a7816041.html
    You are absolutely barking. You did not understand a word of what I said.

    Why would a New Zealander buy an expensive frozen brussel sprout when they could grow fresh cheaper ones?

    To get there it will have to be frozen and because sprouts are a low cost item the overhead of transport will be a significant percentage. Lamb is an expensive item so the cost of transport is a much lower percentage of the cost, so if you can produce it cheaper you can get a competitive price even with the transport. Hence we buy NZ lamb. It obviously doesn't work for brussels because of their low value.

    See my question re Kenya green beans whereas we don't get brussels from elsewhere out of season.
    As New Zealand barely produces any brussels sprouts of any significant quantities, we do produce a fair amount of lamb in the UK however, though it is not our most popular meat.

    Lamb is an expensive meat with or without transportation costs, hence British consumers don't buy much of it relative to say chicken anyway so they are not suddenly going to buy New Zealand lamb with every meal.

    No you either don't read or don't understand what is typed so I am stopping. It is pointless.
    You basically typed our dinner plates would be swamped with NZ lamb while we would have nothing to export in return
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 11,278
    edited August 2021

    MaxPB said:

    That BMX gold routine from Charlotte Worthington was incredible. Max Whitlock as well.

    Good return from our BMX team, two golds, a silver and a bronze.

    Between them and the swimmers they've really managed make up for our rowing failure.

    Athletics is going to be a massive bust.....need to stick to events which involves swimming or tiny bikes.
    Swimming, tiny bikes or horses.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,408
    spudgfsh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    It's too early to tell at the moment. one of the swimmers might have a big shout but we still have the velodrome and most of the athletics to come.
    Yes it's quite open. I've done a nice Peaty trade, in at 18, out at 8. Daley is the fav at 4, which I wouldn't quarrel with. He has some celeb power to go with the achievement. Laura Kenny and Cavendish are the others with obvious chances.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,813

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Not least, the equity markets are long overdue a major correction.

    I see no particular reason why asset prices should nosedive so long as interest rates remain close to zero. If leaving money in the bank means that its value gradually gets inflated away, people who have wealth are always going to want to invest it elsewhere.

    I also see no particular reason why interest rates should rise significantly. Many or most governments, businesses and individuals are more heavily indebted than ever because of the pandemic. What incentive is there for central banks to strangle their economies by cranking up the cost of servicing those debts?
    How sweet. You think that central banks can indefinitely control interest rates.

    And “elsewhere” does not have to be equity.
    Actually, yes, I do.

    And there is nowhere else to go, apart from sovereign bonds which will simply serve to continue to depress yields. If, theoretically, everyone tried to pile into property there wouldn't be enough of it in the world to meet the demand.

    Any post-pandemic burst of inflation is liable to be temporary. The future is Japan: low inflation, low growth, rock bottom interest rates.
    The future is Japan: low inflation, low growth, rock bottom interest rates…

    … rock bottom reproduction rates, near zero immigration, old and rapidly aging population unable to be supported by shrinking labour pool.

    In other words, an unhealthy society.

    Greens will love the “low growth” bit though.
    Schoolinh result
    But you’re wrong if you think that central banks can indefinitely control interest rates. The real economic truths always fell the proud in the end.
    Isn't Scotland like tgat save for early deaths due to drink and drugs add appalling schooling and a Govt akin to Japan.. almost but not quite twins....
    . .
    Scotland differs from Japan in a multitude of ways, not least of which is the immigration factor. Scotland has a strong flow of immigrants.
    I thought that was surplanted by an even bigger exodus
    Nope.

    Evolution of the population of Scotland 1954–2014. Data from National Records of Scotland 2014.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mid-year_Estimates_of_Scotland's_Population_54-14.png

    1500 500,000
    1600 800,000
    1707 1,000,000
    1755 1,265,380
    1801 1,608,420
    1811 1,805,864
    1821 2,091,521
    1831 2,364,386
    1841 2,620,184
    1851 2,888,742
    1861 3,062,294
    1871 3,360,018
    1881 3,735,578
    1891 4,025,647
    1901 4,472,103
    1911 4,760,904
    1921 4,882,407
    1931 4,842,989
    1939 5,006,700
    1951 5,095,969
    1961 5,179,000
    1971 5,229,000
    1981 5,035,000
    1991 5,083,000
    2001 5,062,000
    2011 5,295,000
    2019 5,463,300
    The Scottish population is up by 11.9% over the last ~century.

    By way of comparison the English population is +59.8% over the same period (and this is the sole reason for the public funding imbalance, the difference in population growth, the Barnett formula is actually intended to eliminate the difference that arose as a result).

    And, for completeness since the comparison with Japan was made initially, their population is +124.5% over the last century.
    I realise that Willy Waving Competitions are de rigeur around here, but you are deep into straw man territory.

    I was simply countering squareroot2’s post: “I thought that was surplanted by an even bigger exodus”. To which the answer is: no.
    Look, I am interested in numbers. If you present me with a list of numbers I am going to look for interesting things in those numbers.

    I'm not interested in your Nationalistic competitions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,646
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Colleagues, this is bordering on bullying. Apart from the fact that HYUFD is standing up for himself, albeit with increasing wild and insupportable statements.

    But, car manufacture stopped in Australasia because the Japanese were doing it better and cheaper. And shipping costs from Japan are lower.
    The UK is the 6th biggest car exporter to Australia already after Japan, Thailand, South Korea, Germany and the US
    https://www.caradvice.com.au/667954/passports-please-where-do-australias-cars-come-from/
    And the tariffs are? Secondly, why were we behind another EU member (when the figures were compiled).
    The tariffs will now obviously be negligible post trade deal.

    Germany has a bigger economy and car industry than ours but we beat every other EU nation in terms of car exports to Australia
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,443
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    There is actually a notion that sprouts taste better after the first frosts. I am not sure if this is (a) true (b) special pleading which may or may not be true and /or (c) applicable only to the cultivars grown in the UK.
    Yes, parsnips too as the frost sweetens them by breaking up starches.

    But does anyone eat sprouts apart from Christmas dinner?
    Yepp. One of my favourite vegetables. They are especially good when fried, preferably pretty hard so they char a bit.
    This is going to be like the "what poncy gits actually bother to boil chicken bones?" thread.
    Send the man some pickled herring.
    Did you ever tell me how you liked it, BTW? I don't recall that you did. Was it good?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904

    ping said:

    @DavidL

    The Craig Murray trial seems bonkers to me. As he said, Kafkaesque.

    The really fun bit is the suggested abolition of Juries for rape trials.

    When that doesn't achieve the aim, I presume the next idea up is the reversal of the presumption of innocence. Some have already demanded that.
    We already have a quite absurd situation in Scotland where it is not possible to lead any evidence that might relate to the sexual history of the complainer with very limited exceptions. Evidence that the complainer consented to sex on other occasions before or after the alleged offence is "collateral" and inadmissible. In contrast the Crown is able to lodge a docquet to the Indictment giving notice that evidence will be led that the accused behaved in a similar way to what is alleged in the instant case, even if he was acquitted on the previous occasion. This is apparently not collateral but helpful to the Jury in their determination. If there is a rational explanation of the apparent incompatibility of these 2 approaches I have yet to hear it.

    The statutory provisions relating to this were introduced after a truly idiotic counsel waved the complainer's flimsy knickers around in from of the Jury asking whether someone who was wearing something like this was really not up for sex. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and inexcusable. The problem now is that the Courts have extended these rules to the point that the role of the Jury is being undermined. They are being asked to make a decision in the absence of relevant information of a type which we would use to determine the likelihood of anything else.

    This can be very unfair on the accused. The fact that a person allegedly raped consented to sex a couple of days later absolutely does not mean that they were not raped 2 days previously but for a Jury trying to determine the truth or otherwise of the allegation it is hardly irrelevant.

    It can also be extremely unfair on the complainer. Juries pick up on the fact that they are not being given the whole picture and don't like it. The accused gets far more of the benefit of the doubt than he is entitled to as a result. And they do not convict even when they probably should.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,801

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Particularly when you factor in the way the transport costs work - once on the water, shipping costs rise surprisingly slowly with distance. Hence China rising to dominance in manufacturing various items.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,646

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss says the UK is on the verge of a trade deal with New Zealand

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1421744617020608513?s=20

    Oh, thank God for that!...We are all saved.....
    More seriously, it is another step towards being accepted into the CPTPP.

    Which will really upset some people, for a fairly obvious reason.
    The only thing outstanding is the small matter of diverting all our trade through the Pitcairns.
    thankfully we should be able to purchase cabbages from Christmas Island, potatoes from Pitcairn Island, asperagus from Australia, tomatoes from Tahiti, (anymore alliterative veg?), once our farming industry goes to the wall.
    It won't go to the wall, there will be great demand in Australia and New Zealand for British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg
    Evidence? Seem to recall more than adequate beef when I've been to Aussie; indeed they export it to SE Asia and Japan. New Zealand, as I recall, has excellent, and excellent supplies of milk. Can't imagine that our fruit can compete with theirs, either.
    What you haven't mentioned is that the Aussies were quite keen to replace the sales of wine to China that they've recently lost.
    We also produce our own beef and lamb it may surprise you to know and there are excellent English sparkling wines as well now but no reason consumers both here and in Australia and New Zealand cannot have more choice and removal of tariffs, unless you are anti free trade.

    Not quite, my West Essex friend. You claimed that Aussies and Kiwis would be falling over themselves to buy, and I quote, 'British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg'.
    Which I doubted, and sought evidence from you..

    I have no problem with the concept of Free Trade, although it is not necessarily the answer to all problems and does create some.
    For example an increase in the availability, and decrease in the price, of Aussie sparkling wine might well have a negative effect on our own local industry.
    You are also forgetting it is not all one way traffic, our exports to Australia will also be cheaper.

    Whisky, Brussels Sprouts, venison, cider etc all relatively rare in Australia and New Zealand and ripe for export from the UK to them.

    Surely Australia and New Zealand will get their Brussels Sprouts from the EU, not from us? The clue's in the name.
    The EU does not have a trade deal with Australia and New Zealand yet, they do with us now, so our Brussels Sprouts will be cheaper.

    There are huge opportunities for British Brussels Sprout farmers now in Australia and New Zealand
    I have liked that because I haven't laughed so much for ages.

    Will these be fresh or frozen? Traditionally a Christmas veg which will get there after Christmas. Even we don't eat them from frozen out of season. If they are interested why doesn't New Zealand grow them themselves?

    You are planning to export a bulky cheap vegetable half way around the world that they can grow themselves if they wanted to.

    There must be so many other opportunities you could have picked that are better.
    I would have thought out of all British food and drink products Brussels Sprouts are amongst the least likely to be home produced or grown in Australia and New Zealand, thus it will have amongst the highest demand for British exporters of it to there.

    Especially as we now have a trade deal with them unlike the EU
    They grow the things in profusion in Australia, as 30 seconds on this thing called Google shows.

    https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/how-to-make-brussels-sprouts-taste-delicious/12299690

    And when the cost of carbon tax is added, forget exporting to Oz.
    That is a recipe for Brussels Sprouts, not a link to vast numbers of Brussels Sprouts farmers in Australia. Brussels Sprouts are one of the least grown vegetables in Australia, in fact not even in the top 15 Australian vegetable crops
    https://ausveg.com.au/resources/economics-statistics/australian-vegetable-production-statistics/

    EU Brussels Sprout exporters of course would have to deal with high tariffs, unlike the UK, as well as a carbon tax (though of course a carbon tax would equally apply to Australian imports here in time)
    Lets look at exports then

    https://www.worldstopexports.com/top-brussels-sprouts-exports-by-country/
    Yes, we are a top 10 Brussels sprouts exporter unlike Australia and New Zealand
    Australia exports more Brussels Sprouts per capita than we do. You can never simply admit that you were mistaken?

    It's so incredibly childish.
    I was not mistaken, we export more Brussels Sprouts than Australia and New Zealand do.

    If you were talking carrots you might have had a point, there Australia is a top 10 exporter unlike us

    https://www.tridge.com/intelligences/carrot/export
    You are wrong.

    On its own that's fine. Life is a series of mistakes. As someone said on here a day or two ago, we all make them.

    What is contemptible is that you refuse ever to admit to error. It is impossible to have any sort of public debate if someone will not admit to error when confronted with the facts.

    You are everything that is wrong with politics in this country, and democracies more generally.
    Well if I continue to annoy left liberals like you all to the good, I will carry on with gusto! I would be more concerned if I wasn't.

    I was also not wrong, the UK is a top 10 brussels sprout exporter unlike Australia as even your own link confirmed
    There's a massive difference between annoying me by holding political views I dislike, or worse, by coming up with good arguments for political views that I dislike - as several of the right-wing posters on here manage - and annoying me by failing to observe a basic principle of public debate - not to lie about the facts.

    The first is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the second will be the death of it.

    And on a personal level it is a sign of being a weak-minded coward not to be willing to admit to mistakes. You're pathetic.
    There was no lie, as your own link showed the UK is a top 10 brussel sprouts exporter unlike Australia. You have also refused to concede that.

    I of course could not care less what you think of me
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,789
    It’s been reported that Belarusian athlete Kryscina Tsimanouskaya, who publicly criticized the regime and sports officials, is being sent from Tokyo back to Belarus. Apparently, representatives of the Belarusian national team took her to the airport. It looks like kidnapping

    https://twitter.com/HannaLiubakova/status/1421781150868066309
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,691
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss says the UK is on the verge of a trade deal with New Zealand

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1421744617020608513?s=20

    Oh, thank God for that!...We are all saved.....
    More seriously, it is another step towards being accepted into the CPTPP.

    Which will really upset some people, for a fairly obvious reason.
    The only thing outstanding is the small matter of diverting all our trade through the Pitcairns.
    thankfully we should be able to purchase cabbages from Christmas Island, potatoes from Pitcairn Island, asperagus from Australia, tomatoes from Tahiti, (anymore alliterative veg?), once our farming industry goes to the wall.
    It won't go to the wall, there will be great demand in Australia and New Zealand for British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg
    Evidence? Seem to recall more than adequate beef when I've been to Aussie; indeed they export it to SE Asia and Japan. New Zealand, as I recall, has excellent, and excellent supplies of milk. Can't imagine that our fruit can compete with theirs, either.
    What you haven't mentioned is that the Aussies were quite keen to replace the sales of wine to China that they've recently lost.
    We also produce our own beef and lamb it may surprise you to know and there are excellent English sparkling wines as well now but no reason consumers both here and in Australia and New Zealand cannot have more choice and removal of tariffs, unless you are anti free trade.

    Not quite, my West Essex friend. You claimed that Aussies and Kiwis would be falling over themselves to buy, and I quote, 'British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg'.
    Which I doubted, and sought evidence from you..

    I have no problem with the concept of Free Trade, although it is not necessarily the answer to all problems and does create some.
    For example an increase in the availability, and decrease in the price, of Aussie sparkling wine might well have a negative effect on our own local industry.
    You are also forgetting it is not all one way traffic, our exports to Australia will also be cheaper.

    Whisky, Brussels Sprouts, venison, cider etc all relatively rare in Australia and New Zealand and ripe for export from the UK to them.

    Surely Australia and New Zealand will get their Brussels Sprouts from the EU, not from us? The clue's in the name.
    The EU does not have a trade deal with Australia and New Zealand yet, they do with us now, so our Brussels Sprouts will be cheaper.

    There are huge opportunities for British Brussels Sprout farmers now in Australia and New Zealand
    I have liked that because I haven't laughed so much for ages.

    Will these be fresh or frozen? Traditionally a Christmas veg which will get there after Christmas. Even we don't eat them from frozen out of season. If they are interested why doesn't New Zealand grow them themselves?

    You are planning to export a bulky cheap vegetable half way around the world that they can grow themselves if they wanted to.

    There must be so many other opportunities you could have picked that are better.
    I would have thought out of all British food and drink products Brussels Sprouts are amongst the least likely to be home produced or grown in Australia and New Zealand, thus it will have amongst the highest demand for British exporters of it to there.

    Especially as we now have a trade deal with them unlike the EU
    They grow the things in profusion in Australia, as 30 seconds on this thing called Google shows.

    https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/how-to-make-brussels-sprouts-taste-delicious/12299690

    And when the cost of carbon tax is added, forget exporting to Oz.
    That is a recipe for Brussels Sprouts, not a link to vast numbers of Brussels Sprouts farmers in Australia. Brussels Sprouts are one of the least grown vegetables in Australia, in fact not even in the top 15 Australian vegetable crops
    https://ausveg.com.au/resources/economics-statistics/australian-vegetable-production-statistics/

    EU Brussels Sprout exporters of course would have to deal with high tariffs, unlike the UK, as well as a carbon tax (though of course a carbon tax would equally apply to Australian imports here in time)
    Lets look at exports then

    https://www.worldstopexports.com/top-brussels-sprouts-exports-by-country/
    Yes, we are a top 10 Brussels sprouts exporter unlike Australia and New Zealand
    Australia exports more Brussels Sprouts per capita than we do. You can never simply admit that you were mistaken?

    It's so incredibly childish.
    I was not mistaken, we export more Brussels Sprouts than Australia and New Zealand do.

    If you were talking carrots you might have had a point, there Australia is a top 10 exporter unlike us

    https://www.tridge.com/intelligences/carrot/export
    You are wrong.

    On its own that's fine. Life is a series of mistakes. As someone said on here a day or two ago, we all make them.

    What is contemptible is that you refuse ever to admit to error. It is impossible to have any sort of public debate if someone will not admit to error when confronted with the facts.

    You are everything that is wrong with politics in this country, and democracies more generally.
    Well if I continue to annoy left liberals like you all to the good, I will carry on with gusto! I would be more concerned if I wasn't.

    I was also not wrong, the UK is a top 10 brussels sprout exporter unlike Australia as even your own link confirmed
    There's a massive difference between annoying me by holding political views I dislike, or worse, by coming up with good arguments for political views that I dislike - as several of the right-wing posters on here manage - and annoying me by failing to observe a basic principle of public debate - not to lie about the facts.

    The first is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the second will be the death of it.

    And on a personal level it is a sign of being a weak-minded coward not to be willing to admit to mistakes. You're pathetic.
    Wonderful scrimmage.

    There seems to be some significant investment happening in market gardening.

    Here's one that is an £85m project to grow 12,000 tonnes of cucumber a year, all year. 22 hectares of greenhouses.

    https://agritradenews.co.uk/news/2021/04/28/largescale-renewable-glasshouse-crop-system-for-ely/

    And here's a piece from the grown just in 2015 bewailing the death of the British cucumber.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/06/british-cucumbers-on-brink-of-extinction
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,801
    DavidL said:

    ping said:

    @DavidL

    The Craig Murray trial seems bonkers to me. As he said, Kafkaesque.

    The really fun bit is the suggested abolition of Juries for rape trials.

    When that doesn't achieve the aim, I presume the next idea up is the reversal of the presumption of innocence. Some have already demanded that.
    We already have a quite absurd situation in Scotland where it is not possible to lead any evidence that might relate to the sexual history of the complainer with very limited exceptions. Evidence that the complainer consented to sex on other occasions before or after the alleged offence is "collateral" and inadmissible. In contrast the Crown is able to lodge a docquet to the Indictment giving notice that evidence will be led that the accused behaved in a similar way to what is alleged in the instant case, even if he was acquitted on the previous occasion. This is apparently not collateral but helpful to the Jury in their determination. If there is a rational explanation of the apparent incompatibility of these 2 approaches I have yet to hear it.

    The statutory provisions relating to this were introduced after a truly idiotic counsel waved the complainer's flimsy knickers around in from of the Jury asking whether someone who was wearing something like this was really not up for sex. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and inexcusable. The problem now is that the Courts have extended these rules to the point that the role of the Jury is being undermined. They are being asked to make a decision in the absence of relevant information of a type which we would use to determine the likelihood of anything else.

    This can be very unfair on the accused. The fact that a person allegedly raped consented to sex a couple of days later absolutely does not mean that they were not raped 2 days previously but for a Jury trying to determine the truth or otherwise of the allegation it is hardly irrelevant.

    It can also be extremely unfair on the complainer. Juries pick up on the fact that they are not being given the whole picture and don't like it. The accused gets far more of the benefit of the doubt than he is entitled to as a result. And they do not convict even when they probably should.
    And so it goes.

    The interesting thing, according to some people doing legal research, is that actually looking at the convictions rates and the causes of them is considered dangerous.

    As in, if you publish something that can be Daily Mailed to make it look extreme in either direction, you are looking at fates ranging from loosing your PhD to being un-employable.

    So people are shying away from studying this....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,762
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    There is actually a notion that sprouts taste better after the first frosts. I am not sure if this is (a) true (b) special pleading which may or may not be true and /or (c) applicable only to the cultivars grown in the UK.
    Yes, parsnips too as the frost sweetens them by breaking up starches.

    But does anyone eat sprouts apart from Christmas dinner?
    Yepp. One of my favourite vegetables. They are especially good when fried, preferably pretty hard so they char a bit.
    This is going to be like the "what poncy gits actually bother to boil chicken bones?" thread.
    Send the man some pickled herring.
    Did you ever tell me how you liked it, BTW? I don't recall that you did. Was it good?
    A pal gave me some home pickled mackerel a couple of weeks ago, not very nice actually. The mackerel flesh loses its consistency, no bite like, say, a herring.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,175

    It’s been reported that Belarusian athlete Kryscina Tsimanouskaya, who publicly criticized the regime and sports officials, is being sent from Tokyo back to Belarus. Apparently, representatives of the Belarusian national team took her to the airport. It looks like kidnapping

    https://twitter.com/HannaLiubakova/status/1421781150868066309

    Belarus needs the South Africa treatment.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    An alternative view on the Craig Murray case:

    https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2021/07/31/on-forms-of-journalism/

    That really is a must read.

    Fourth the idea is bounced around and around that other journalists also ‘leaked’ the names of witnesses but went unpunished. Murray and others consistently point to Dani Garavelli as one of these citing a Panelbase poll. What’s less often noted is that Craig Murray wrote and paid for the question to be added to the poll. In other cases journalists or other individuals may have inadvertently released information and when warned then instantly apologised and deleted such material. Not so the Ambassador who when warned pressed on. There is quite a difference.
    Peatworrier got a lot of pelters for this tweet but I think it’s spot on. Murray’s actually got what he wanted, attention and Assangesque martyrdom for the cause, so a non custodial sentence might have been a better choice.

    https://twitter.com/peatworrier/status/1420845010900197379?s=21
    I read Craig Murray's pieces on the trial. They did not allow me to identify any of the complainers. Why not? Because I did not have the other parts of the jigsaw or other information which would allow me to determine the significance of what he reported. This, to me, is the fundamental problem with jigsaw identification. If it is to be determined by the Court with the benefit of hindsight and with a lot of other information that is not even in the public domain how do you anticipate that you may be offending? The answer is that you are extremely cautious and ambiguities, anomalies or just plain lies of witnesses in such cases are simply not reported because of the chilling effect of a potential jigsaw identification.

    The allegation in this case is that a number of women who were connected to the SNP in various ways along with some civil servants very close to the current First Minister got together and conspired to produce sufficient evidence that Salmond was prosecuted in the High Court. I must emphasise that I have no idea whether such an allegation is true or not but it is a very serious allegation. Where it is demonstrated that people claim to have been sexually molested at a dinner which there is no record of them even being at certain issues arise. Have they simply made a mistake as to the date or the occasion (the most likely explanation)? Have they made it up (possible, but much less common)? Have they contrived with others to create a case that damns the person alleged to be responsible (far fetched but not impossible)?

    The problem is that Murray was convinced that the last was at least a factor in this trial. He tried to show that but it is impossible to do without giving some context to the allegation. It is that context that forms the basis of the jigsaw identification.

    I remain appalled that the Supreme Court has declined to look at this. There were obvious flaws in the Court's judgment (for example, he was found guilty of something not explicitly in the petition). It is a considerable extension of the s4 with uncertain boundaries and in my view it is incompatible with Article 10 of ECHR. Definitive guidance from the Supreme Court would have been helpful in clarifying the rules and the boundaries. They may have upheld the conviction, possibly on more limited grounds. But they really should have considered it.
    Who decided whether the supreme court examines something? Do the learned judges just read the papers and interfere where they see fit, or is there some form of request process?
    The rules now are that you firstly apply to the Court that has dealt with the matter for permission to appeal to the Supreme Court. That application involved a hearing at which Murray was represented by the Dean of Faculty, Roddy Dunlop QC. The application was refused. You then apply to the Supreme Court itself who can choose to hear the case if they consider it in the public interest or if it raises a matter of sufficient importance. My experience of that predates the current rules but my understanding is that this is a paper exercise with a written submission. That has also now been refused.
    Refused by whom, the SC?
    Yes. There will be a written decision confirming the refusal but that is normally very brief.
    Is that an end to it then?
    Apart from the 'Lawyerly Lizard People are all in it together and just like the SNP are Unionists' theories of course.
    There may be an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights on the compatibility of the decision with Article 10 but that will not, AIUI, prevent him from having to serve his sentence.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 11,278
    edited August 2021
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Max 55 for SPotY does sound high but even if he is nominated in a crowded year, it is hard to see him winning. Max got only 4 per cent of the vote in 2016 (Rio Olympics; Andy Murray won).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,175
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Lol, not such a good bet by me on this occasion! He’s certain to be nominated so I think anything over 25-1 is value.

    I think it’s all going to come down to the Kennys.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,408

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,762
    tlg86 said:

    It’s been reported that Belarusian athlete Kryscina Tsimanouskaya, who publicly criticized the regime and sports officials, is being sent from Tokyo back to Belarus. Apparently, representatives of the Belarusian national team took her to the airport. It looks like kidnapping

    https://twitter.com/HannaLiubakova/status/1421781150868066309

    Belarus needs the South Africa treatment.
    The UK pm calling the Belarus opposition terrorists and opposing sanctions?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Max 55 for SPotY does sound high but even if he is nominated in a crowded year, it is hard to see him winning. Max got only 4 per cent of the vote in 2016 (Rio Olympics; Andy Murray won).
    The World Gymnastic champs are in late October - I would guess with decent BBC coverage so does give him a booster chance later on. But agree Daley has the better story and Peaty the better performance.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,175

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Max 55 for SPotY does sound high but even if he is nominated in a crowded year, it is hard to see him winning. Max got only 4 per cent of the vote in 2016 (Rio Olympics; Andy Murray won).
    True, but in 2016 he did beat the Kennys and Peaty and none of those who beat him will be in the mix this time.

    Lewis Hamilton is the joker in the pack in my opinion.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500

    tlg86 said:

    It’s been reported that Belarusian athlete Kryscina Tsimanouskaya, who publicly criticized the regime and sports officials, is being sent from Tokyo back to Belarus. Apparently, representatives of the Belarusian national team took her to the airport. It looks like kidnapping

    https://twitter.com/HannaLiubakova/status/1421781150868066309

    Belarus needs the South Africa treatment.
    The UK pm calling the Belarus opposition terrorists and opposing sanctions?
    You are forgetting a rebel tour of Belarus by the public school sports.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,801
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    Once shipping changes from running on heavy fuel oil - which will happen fairly rapidly once a couple of technologies reach the right state* - then shipping goes green quite rapidly.

    Unlike air travel, when power to weight ratios are all, ships really need a bunch of heavy stuff at the bottom.

    *One of them is the drop in the price and increase in volume of battery production. Both are happening.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,779
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD’s claim that we don’t have brussel sprouts or venison in NZ is frankly certifiable.

    It’s so stupid he should be subject to some kind of voter recall in Epping-on-Brexit.

    NZ does import small amounts of Colston Basset stilton. For sale in the five or six very expensive delis the population can support.

    That’s about it.

    Premium beer and spirits will be a different matter.

    It may surprise you to know we even have lamb and sheep farms here in the UK, just not as big percentage wise as in New Zealand.

    However as I have already shown brussels sprouts are not produced in great numbers in Australia certainly and as I mentioned earlier if you had checked cider and whiskey exports would also be a great opportunity for British producers for export to Australia and New Zealand
    I am aware yes.
    They will no doubt suffer under the industrial-scale, very efficient production of NZ lamb.

    Not a single brussel sprout will ever be exported from the U.K. to NZ. Only a true nutter would think so.
    Not at all and the idea that vast quantities of New Zealand lamb will be exported to the UK without travel constraints while not a single British Brussels Sprout will ever be on a Kiwi dinner plate is absurd
    a) Lamb is an expensive product, brussels aren't
    b) Lamb freezes well, brussels don't
    c) Australia/NZ are a long long way way making both a) and b) very important
    Hence consumers are more likely to buy more brussels sprouts than they currently do if tariffs are removed on them than more lamb than they already do if tariffs are removed on them, as imported lamb will still be pretty expensive even without tariffs.

    There is a reason chicken and poultry are now the most eaten British meats, not red meat like lamb and beef, as well as the health factors it is cheaper


    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/white-meat-red-more-popular-uk-britain-beef-chicken-turkey-lamb-pork-a7816041.html
    You are absolutely barking. You did not understand a word of what I said.

    Why would a New Zealander buy an expensive frozen brussel sprout when they could grow fresh cheaper ones?

    To get there it will have to be frozen and because sprouts are a low cost item the overhead of transport will be a significant percentage. Lamb is an expensive item so the cost of transport is a much lower percentage of the cost, so if you can produce it cheaper you can get a competitive price even with the transport. Hence we buy NZ lamb. It obviously doesn't work for brussels because of their low value.

    See my question re Kenya green beans whereas we don't get brussels from elsewhere out of season.
    As New Zealand barely produces any brussels sprouts of any significant quantities, we do produce a fair amount of lamb in the UK however, though it is not our most popular meat.

    Lamb is an expensive meat with or without transportation costs, hence British consumers don't buy much of it relative to say chicken anyway so they are not suddenly going to buy New Zealand lamb with every meal.

    No you either don't read or don't understand what is typed so I am stopping. It is pointless.
    You basically typed our dinner plates would be swamped with NZ lamb while we would have nothing to export in return
    No I never said any of that. This is mind boggling. I never suggested NZ would export more lamb to us at any time and I don't believe they will. Where did you get that from? I also never said we wouldn't export anything to NZ. In fact I said the exact opposite highlighting specific products.

    I just challenged your nutty list of exports like brussels.

    You have either got me mixed up with another poster or don't understand the posts I have made which focus on the impracticality of exporting Brussels over long distances because of cost and storage issues. There is a big difference in transporting say a leg of lamb or a car compared to Brussel sprouts because of the transport overheads per item and the degradability of the product.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,408
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Lol, not such a good bet by me on this occasion! He’s certain to be nominated so I think anything over 25-1 is value.

    I think it’s all going to come down to the Kennys.
    40s with bookie is ok. The exchange is always higher on long shots.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,691
    edited August 2021

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    There is actually a notion that sprouts taste better after the first frosts. I am not sure if this is (a) true (b) special pleading which may or may not be true and /or (c) applicable only to the cultivars grown in the UK.
    Yes, parsnips too as the frost sweetens them by breaking up starches.

    But does anyone eat sprouts apart from Christmas dinner?
    Yepp. One of my favourite vegetables. They are especially good when fried, preferably pretty hard so they char a bit.
    This is going to be like the "what poncy gits actually bother to boil chicken bones?" thread.
    Send the man some pickled herring.
    Did you ever tell me how you liked it, BTW? I don't recall that you did. Was it good?
    A pal gave me some home pickled mackerel a couple of weeks ago, not very nice actually. The mackerel flesh loses its consistency, no bite like, say, a herring.
    Yes.

    Certainly an acquired taste, but I will get some again - though occasionally.

    Thanks for the interest.

    (And of course, I mean herring).
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    Whilst cars are less utterly insane than sprouts, and accepting that global shipping is cheap if you're happy for it to be slow...

    Where's the UK's edge over Japan/S Korea for cars to Australasia?

    It's possible that the UK is being a 4D chess genius by prioritising shallow global deals over deep local ones, but nobody seems to be looking at the UK and thinking "by Jove, they've got it, we should copy them."
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,076
    This high jump is quite a contest.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,175
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Lol, not such a good bet by me on this occasion! He’s certain to be nominated so I think anything over 25-1 is value.

    I think it’s all going to come down to the Kennys.
    40s with bookie is ok. The exchange is always higher on long shots.
    He wasn’t listed on Betfair until after he’d won - I thought he’d be sub 20-1 when he did get listed.
  • tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Max 55 for SPotY does sound high but even if he is nominated in a crowded year, it is hard to see him winning. Max got only 4 per cent of the vote in 2016 (Rio Olympics; Andy Murray won).
    True, but in 2016 he did beat the Kennys and Peaty and none of those who beat him will be in the mix this time.

    Lewis Hamilton is the joker in the pack in my opinion.
    imo (not that I have a good record so take this with a pinch of NZ salt) SPotY is not about sport. It is just another reality show.

    Who will be nominated given the BBC has boxes to tick across sports, sexes and don't forget the paralympics?
    Is there a bloc vote?
    Is there a split vote?
    Does your wife want to mother him?
    Does your daughter want to boff him?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,813
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss says the UK is on the verge of a trade deal with New Zealand

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1421744617020608513?s=20

    Oh, thank God for that!...We are all saved.....
    More seriously, it is another step towards being accepted into the CPTPP.

    Which will really upset some people, for a fairly obvious reason.
    The only thing outstanding is the small matter of diverting all our trade through the Pitcairns.
    thankfully we should be able to purchase cabbages from Christmas Island, potatoes from Pitcairn Island, asperagus from Australia, tomatoes from Tahiti, (anymore alliterative veg?), once our farming industry goes to the wall.
    It won't go to the wall, there will be great demand in Australia and New Zealand for British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg
    Evidence? Seem to recall more than adequate beef when I've been to Aussie; indeed they export it to SE Asia and Japan. New Zealand, as I recall, has excellent, and excellent supplies of milk. Can't imagine that our fruit can compete with theirs, either.
    What you haven't mentioned is that the Aussies were quite keen to replace the sales of wine to China that they've recently lost.
    We also produce our own beef and lamb it may surprise you to know and there are excellent English sparkling wines as well now but no reason consumers both here and in Australia and New Zealand cannot have more choice and removal of tariffs, unless you are anti free trade.

    Not quite, my West Essex friend. You claimed that Aussies and Kiwis would be falling over themselves to buy, and I quote, 'British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg'.
    Which I doubted, and sought evidence from you..

    I have no problem with the concept of Free Trade, although it is not necessarily the answer to all problems and does create some.
    For example an increase in the availability, and decrease in the price, of Aussie sparkling wine might well have a negative effect on our own local industry.
    You are also forgetting it is not all one way traffic, our exports to Australia will also be cheaper.

    Whisky, Brussels Sprouts, venison, cider etc all relatively rare in Australia and New Zealand and ripe for export from the UK to them.

    Surely Australia and New Zealand will get their Brussels Sprouts from the EU, not from us? The clue's in the name.
    The EU does not have a trade deal with Australia and New Zealand yet, they do with us now, so our Brussels Sprouts will be cheaper.

    There are huge opportunities for British Brussels Sprout farmers now in Australia and New Zealand
    I have liked that because I haven't laughed so much for ages.

    Will these be fresh or frozen? Traditionally a Christmas veg which will get there after Christmas. Even we don't eat them from frozen out of season. If they are interested why doesn't New Zealand grow them themselves?

    You are planning to export a bulky cheap vegetable half way around the world that they can grow themselves if they wanted to.

    There must be so many other opportunities you could have picked that are better.
    I would have thought out of all British food and drink products Brussels Sprouts are amongst the least likely to be home produced or grown in Australia and New Zealand, thus it will have amongst the highest demand for British exporters of it to there.

    Especially as we now have a trade deal with them unlike the EU
    They grow the things in profusion in Australia, as 30 seconds on this thing called Google shows.

    https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/how-to-make-brussels-sprouts-taste-delicious/12299690

    And when the cost of carbon tax is added, forget exporting to Oz.
    That is a recipe for Brussels Sprouts, not a link to vast numbers of Brussels Sprouts farmers in Australia. Brussels Sprouts are one of the least grown vegetables in Australia, in fact not even in the top 15 Australian vegetable crops
    https://ausveg.com.au/resources/economics-statistics/australian-vegetable-production-statistics/

    EU Brussels Sprout exporters of course would have to deal with high tariffs, unlike the UK, as well as a carbon tax (though of course a carbon tax would equally apply to Australian imports here in time)
    Lets look at exports then

    https://www.worldstopexports.com/top-brussels-sprouts-exports-by-country/
    Yes, we are a top 10 Brussels sprouts exporter unlike Australia and New Zealand
    Australia exports more Brussels Sprouts per capita than we do. You can never simply admit that you were mistaken?

    It's so incredibly childish.
    I was not mistaken, we export more Brussels Sprouts than Australia and New Zealand do.

    If you were talking carrots you might have had a point, there Australia is a top 10 exporter unlike us

    https://www.tridge.com/intelligences/carrot/export
    You are wrong.

    On its own that's fine. Life is a series of mistakes. As someone said on here a day or two ago, we all make them.

    What is contemptible is that you refuse ever to admit to error. It is impossible to have any sort of public debate if someone will not admit to error when confronted with the facts.

    You are everything that is wrong with politics in this country, and democracies more generally.
    Well if I continue to annoy left liberals like you all to the good, I will carry on with gusto! I would be more concerned if I wasn't.

    I was also not wrong, the UK is a top 10 brussels sprout exporter unlike Australia as even your own link confirmed
    There's a massive difference between annoying me by holding political views I dislike, or worse, by coming up with good arguments for political views that I dislike - as several of the right-wing posters on here manage - and annoying me by failing to observe a basic principle of public debate - not to lie about the facts.

    The first is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the second will be the death of it.

    And on a personal level it is a sign of being a weak-minded coward not to be willing to admit to mistakes. You're pathetic.
    There was no lie, as your own link showed the UK is a top 10 brussel sprouts exporter unlike Australia. You have also refused to concede that.

    I of course could not care less what you think of me
    It wasn't my link. I did not dispute the fact of British exports, so I have nothing to concede. You are in denial of Australian exports of Brussels Sprouts.

  • tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Lol, not such a good bet by me on this occasion! He’s certain to be nominated so I think anything over 25-1 is value.

    I think it’s all going to come down to the Kennys.
    40s with bookie is ok. The exchange is always higher on long shots.
    He wasn’t listed on Betfair until after he’d won - I thought he’d be sub 20-1 when he did get listed.
    My guess is the 55s layer has 100/1 with one of the offices.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,175

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Max 55 for SPotY does sound high but even if he is nominated in a crowded year, it is hard to see him winning. Max got only 4 per cent of the vote in 2016 (Rio Olympics; Andy Murray won).
    True, but in 2016 he did beat the Kennys and Peaty and none of those who beat him will be in the mix this time.

    Lewis Hamilton is the joker in the pack in my opinion.
    imo (not that I have a good record so take this with a pinch of NZ salt) SPotY is not about sport. It is just another reality show.

    Who will be nominated given the BBC has boxes to tick across sports, sexes and don't forget the paralympics?
    Is there a bloc vote?
    Is there a split vote?
    Does your wife want to mother him?
    Does your daughter want to boff him?
    Absolutely, and my record isn’t great to be honest. I actually backed Laura Kenny in 2016 because I thought the BBC would push her a lot as they hadn’t had a female winner for some time. Maybe I was an Olympics early, but she does need to win gold.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,646
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
    You will be losing the Tories the anti-woke vote with such heresy!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,646

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
    You will be losing the Tories the anti-woke vote with such heresy!
    I am not saying you can never have a steak or roast lamb again, just cut the amount a bit and eat more chicken and fish and vegetables instead
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
    You will be losing the Tories the anti-woke vote with such heresy!
    I am not saying you can never have a steak or roast lamb again, just cut the amount a bit and eat more chicken and fish and vegetables instead
    And the anti-wokers are not saying they will never vote Tory again, just that they will be forced to often vote for Reclaim or Reform.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,408

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    Whilst cars are less utterly insane than sprouts, and accepting that global shipping is cheap if you're happy for it to be slow...

    Where's the UK's edge over Japan/S Korea for cars to Australasia?

    It's possible that the UK is being a 4D chess genius by prioritising shallow global deals over deep local ones, but nobody seems to be looking at the UK and thinking "by Jove, they've got it, we should copy them."
    It all feels a bit 'wrong side of history' to me. I think Climate Change is going to grab us by the neck quite soon and knock all other issues off the monitor.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,015

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss says the UK is on the verge of a trade deal with New Zealand

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1421744617020608513?s=20

    Oh, thank God for that!...We are all saved.....
    More seriously, it is another step towards being accepted into the CPTPP.

    Which will really upset some people, for a fairly obvious reason.
    The only thing outstanding is the small matter of diverting all our trade through the Pitcairns.
    thankfully we should be able to purchase cabbages from Christmas Island, potatoes from Pitcairn Island, asperagus from Australia, tomatoes from Tahiti, (anymore alliterative veg?), once our farming industry goes to the wall.
    It won't go to the wall, there will be great demand in Australia and New Zealand for British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg
    Evidence? Seem to recall more than adequate beef when I've been to Aussie; indeed they export it to SE Asia and Japan. New Zealand, as I recall, has excellent, and excellent supplies of milk. Can't imagine that our fruit can compete with theirs, either.
    What you haven't mentioned is that the Aussies were quite keen to replace the sales of wine to China that they've recently lost.
    We also produce our own beef and lamb it may surprise you to know and there are excellent English sparkling wines as well now but no reason consumers both here and in Australia and New Zealand cannot have more choice and removal of tariffs, unless you are anti free trade.

    Not quite, my West Essex friend. You claimed that Aussies and Kiwis would be falling over themselves to buy, and I quote, 'British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg'.
    Which I doubted, and sought evidence from you..

    I have no problem with the concept of Free Trade, although it is not necessarily the answer to all problems and does create some.
    For example an increase in the availability, and decrease in the price, of Aussie sparkling wine might well have a negative effect on our own local industry.
    You are also forgetting it is not all one way traffic, our exports to Australia will also be cheaper.

    Whisky, Brussels Sprouts, venison, cider etc all relatively rare in Australia and New Zealand and ripe for export from the UK to them.

    Surely Australia and New Zealand will get their Brussels Sprouts from the EU, not from us? The clue's in the name.
    The EU does not have a trade deal with Australia and New Zealand yet, they do with us now, so our Brussels Sprouts will be cheaper.

    There are huge opportunities for British Brussels Sprout farmers now in Australia and New Zealand
    I have liked that because I haven't laughed so much for ages.

    Will these be fresh or frozen? Traditionally a Christmas veg which will get there after Christmas. Even we don't eat them from frozen out of season. If they are interested why doesn't New Zealand grow them themselves?

    You are planning to export a bulky cheap vegetable half way around the world that they can grow themselves if they wanted to.

    There must be so many other opportunities you could have picked that are better.
    I would have thought out of all British food and drink products Brussels Sprouts are amongst the least likely to be home produced or grown in Australia and New Zealand, thus it will have amongst the highest demand for British exporters of it to there.

    Especially as we now have a trade deal with them unlike the EU
    They grow the things in profusion in Australia, as 30 seconds on this thing called Google shows.

    https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/how-to-make-brussels-sprouts-taste-delicious/12299690

    And when the cost of carbon tax is added, forget exporting to Oz.
    That is a recipe for Brussels Sprouts, not a link to vast numbers of Brussels Sprouts farmers in Australia. Brussels Sprouts are one of the least grown vegetables in Australia, in fact not even in the top 15 Australian vegetable crops
    https://ausveg.com.au/resources/economics-statistics/australian-vegetable-production-statistics/

    EU Brussels Sprout exporters of course would have to deal with high tariffs, unlike the UK, as well as a carbon tax (though of course a carbon tax would equally apply to Australian imports here in time)
    Lets look at exports then

    https://www.worldstopexports.com/top-brussels-sprouts-exports-by-country/
    Yes, we are a top 10 Brussels sprouts exporter unlike Australia and New Zealand
    Australia exports more Brussels Sprouts per capita than we do. You can never simply admit that you were mistaken?

    It's so incredibly childish.
    I was not mistaken, we export more Brussels Sprouts than Australia and New Zealand do.

    If you were talking carrots you might have had a point, there Australia is a top 10 exporter unlike us

    https://www.tridge.com/intelligences/carrot/export
    You are wrong.

    On its own that's fine. Life is a series of mistakes. As someone said on here a day or two ago, we all make them.

    What is contemptible is that you refuse ever to admit to error. It is impossible to have any sort of public debate if someone will not admit to error when confronted with the facts.

    You are everything that is wrong with politics in this country, and democracies more generally.
    Well if I continue to annoy left liberals like you all to the good, I will carry on with gusto! I would be more concerned if I wasn't.

    I was also not wrong, the UK is a top 10 brussels sprout exporter unlike Australia as even your own link confirmed
    There's a massive difference between annoying me by holding political views I dislike, or worse, by coming up with good arguments for political views that I dislike - as several of the right-wing posters on here manage - and annoying me by failing to observe a basic principle of public debate - not to lie about the facts.

    The first is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the second will be the death of it.

    And on a personal level it is a sign of being a weak-minded coward not to be willing to admit to mistakes. You're pathetic.
    There was no lie, as your own link showed the UK is a top 10 brussel sprouts exporter unlike Australia. You have also refused to concede that.

    I of course could not care less what you think of me
    It wasn't my link. I did not dispute the fact of British exports, so I have nothing to concede. You are in denial of Australian exports of Brussels Sprouts.

    In his own words, HYUFD is talking absolute carrots today.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,646
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
    You will be losing the Tories the anti-woke vote with such heresy!
    I am not saying you can never have a steak or roast lamb again, just cut the amount a bit and eat more chicken and fish and vegetables instead
    And the anti-wokers are not saying they will never vote Tory again, just that they will be forced to often vote for Reclaim or Reform.
    They might prefer full fat steak and beefburgers every day with Farage in midterm but come general election time and the choice is roast beef and fry ups with Boris alternated with roast chicken and fish (from Carrie) or nutroast and tofu with Starmer they will come home
    https://plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/food/vegetarian-keir-starmer-still-misses-bacon/
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,175
    dixiedean said:

    This high jump is quite a contest.

    Including Mitchell Starc’s younger brother!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Starc
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,763
    spudgfsh said:

    tlg86 said:

    Its interesting that in nearly every event in athletics, the WR now is much better than 20-30 years ago (if we exclude the couple of female events where one was juiced of their tits and the other was errrh a man)...but high jump, todays competitors in both men and women still can't get even get near the WR from 30+ years ago.

    Jonathan Edwards still holds the triple jump record.
    Yes, good call. Even he couldn't get close to it after he did it.

    Actually, long jump still stands as well from 30 years ago. Do they get close?
    not really.

    https://www.worldathletics.org/records/all-time-toplists/jumps/long-jump/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=world&windReading=regular&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1900-01-01&lastDay=2021-08-01

    before the current record the previous one was Bob Beamon from 1968 (and not that much different)
    The long jump is one of those wierd records. Beamon jumped out of the pit in 1968, Powell bettered it in 1995 with a few competitors, and no-one has been near it since.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
    You will be losing the Tories the anti-woke vote with such heresy!
    I am not saying you can never have a steak or roast lamb again, just cut the amount a bit and eat more chicken and fish and vegetables instead
    And the anti-wokers are not saying they will never vote Tory again, just that they will be forced to often vote for Reclaim or Reform.
    They might prefer full fat steak and beefburgers with Farage in midterm but come general election time and the choice is roast beef alternated with roast chicken and fish with Boris or nutroast with Starmer they will come home
    Will Boris chicken be chlorinated by then? Is that what he was looking for in the big freezer? And most importantly, is it oven ready?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,779

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    Whilst cars are less utterly insane than sprouts, and accepting that global shipping is cheap if you're happy for it to be slow...

    Where's the UK's edge over Japan/S Korea for cars to Australasia?

    It's possible that the UK is being a 4D chess genius by prioritising shallow global deals over deep local ones, but nobody seems to be looking at the UK and thinking "by Jove, they've got it, we should copy them."
    very good post.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,983

    tlg86 said:

    An alternative view on the Craig Murray case:

    https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2021/07/31/on-forms-of-journalism/

    Is this true?

    Now Craig Murray is claiming that: “The Salmond trial was a vindication of the jury system. I did not get a jury. Which is why Dorrian and Sturgeon are planning to abolish juries in sex crime trials, in the new parliamentary session.”

    It’s really really not – and memo to self – everything in the entire universe isn’t about you. It’s about, in this case the absolutely appalling conviction rates for rape and sexual assault.


    I’m sorry, but this is disgraceful. If juries aren’t appropriate for one form of crime they should be scrapped completely.
    It is a review at the moment as far as I understand.

    https://news.sky.com/story/rape-victims-retraumatised-by-criminal-justice-system-senior-judge-says-12252521

    I know there has been talk and action of abolishing juries for complex fraud/financial crimes in England & Wales but the House of Lords stepped in.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39877171

    But it does rear its head every so often.
    Sturgeon will try to get rid of Juries, she learned from Salmond case and she gets her enemies up in court without juries now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,646
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss says the UK is on the verge of a trade deal with New Zealand

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1421744617020608513?s=20

    Oh, thank God for that!...We are all saved.....
    More seriously, it is another step towards being accepted into the CPTPP.

    Which will really upset some people, for a fairly obvious reason.
    The only thing outstanding is the small matter of diverting all our trade through the Pitcairns.
    thankfully we should be able to purchase cabbages from Christmas Island, potatoes from Pitcairn Island, asperagus from Australia, tomatoes from Tahiti, (anymore alliterative veg?), once our farming industry goes to the wall.
    It won't go to the wall, there will be great demand in Australia and New Zealand for British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg
    Evidence? Seem to recall more than adequate beef when I've been to Aussie; indeed they export it to SE Asia and Japan. New Zealand, as I recall, has excellent, and excellent supplies of milk. Can't imagine that our fruit can compete with theirs, either.
    What you haven't mentioned is that the Aussies were quite keen to replace the sales of wine to China that they've recently lost.
    We also produce our own beef and lamb it may surprise you to know and there are excellent English sparkling wines as well now but no reason consumers both here and in Australia and New Zealand cannot have more choice and removal of tariffs, unless you are anti free trade.

    Not quite, my West Essex friend. You claimed that Aussies and Kiwis would be falling over themselves to buy, and I quote, 'British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg'.
    Which I doubted, and sought evidence from you..

    I have no problem with the concept of Free Trade, although it is not necessarily the answer to all problems and does create some.
    For example an increase in the availability, and decrease in the price, of Aussie sparkling wine might well have a negative effect on our own local industry.
    You are also forgetting it is not all one way traffic, our exports to Australia will also be cheaper.

    Whisky, Brussels Sprouts, venison, cider etc all relatively rare in Australia and New Zealand and ripe for export from the UK to them.

    Surely Australia and New Zealand will get their Brussels Sprouts from the EU, not from us? The clue's in the name.
    The EU does not have a trade deal with Australia and New Zealand yet, they do with us now, so our Brussels Sprouts will be cheaper.

    There are huge opportunities for British Brussels Sprout farmers now in Australia and New Zealand
    I have liked that because I haven't laughed so much for ages.

    Will these be fresh or frozen? Traditionally a Christmas veg which will get there after Christmas. Even we don't eat them from frozen out of season. If they are interested why doesn't New Zealand grow them themselves?

    You are planning to export a bulky cheap vegetable half way around the world that they can grow themselves if they wanted to.

    There must be so many other opportunities you could have picked that are better.
    I would have thought out of all British food and drink products Brussels Sprouts are amongst the least likely to be home produced or grown in Australia and New Zealand, thus it will have amongst the highest demand for British exporters of it to there.

    Especially as we now have a trade deal with them unlike the EU
    They grow the things in profusion in Australia, as 30 seconds on this thing called Google shows.

    https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/how-to-make-brussels-sprouts-taste-delicious/12299690

    And when the cost of carbon tax is added, forget exporting to Oz.
    That is a recipe for Brussels Sprouts, not a link to vast numbers of Brussels Sprouts farmers in Australia. Brussels Sprouts are one of the least grown vegetables in Australia, in fact not even in the top 15 Australian vegetable crops
    https://ausveg.com.au/resources/economics-statistics/australian-vegetable-production-statistics/

    EU Brussels Sprout exporters of course would have to deal with high tariffs, unlike the UK, as well as a carbon tax (though of course a carbon tax would equally apply to Australian imports here in time)
    Lets look at exports then

    https://www.worldstopexports.com/top-brussels-sprouts-exports-by-country/
    Yes, we are a top 10 Brussels sprouts exporter unlike Australia and New Zealand
    Australia exports more Brussels Sprouts per capita than we do. You can never simply admit that you were mistaken?

    It's so incredibly childish.
    I was not mistaken, we export more Brussels Sprouts than Australia and New Zealand do.

    If you were talking carrots you might have had a point, there Australia is a top 10 exporter unlike us

    https://www.tridge.com/intelligences/carrot/export
    You are wrong.

    On its own that's fine. Life is a series of mistakes. As someone said on here a day or two ago, we all make them.

    What is contemptible is that you refuse ever to admit to error. It is impossible to have any sort of public debate if someone will not admit to error when confronted with the facts.

    You are everything that is wrong with politics in this country, and democracies more generally.
    Well if I continue to annoy left liberals like you all to the good, I will carry on with gusto! I would be more concerned if I wasn't.

    I was also not wrong, the UK is a top 10 brussels sprout exporter unlike Australia as even your own link confirmed
    There's a massive difference between annoying me by holding political views I dislike, or worse, by coming up with good arguments for political views that I dislike - as several of the right-wing posters on here manage - and annoying me by failing to observe a basic principle of public debate - not to lie about the facts.

    The first is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the second will be the death of it.

    And on a personal level it is a sign of being a weak-minded coward not to be willing to admit to mistakes. You're pathetic.
    There was no lie, as your own link showed the UK is a top 10 brussel sprouts exporter unlike Australia. You have also refused to concede that.

    I of course could not care less what you think of me
    It wasn't my link. I did not dispute the fact of British exports, so I have nothing to concede. You are in denial of Australian exports of Brussels Sprouts.

    In his own words, HYUFD is talking absolute carrots today.
    I posted earlier I was not in denial of Australian exports of carrots, I accept Australia leads us in the world carrot trade
  • theProletheProle Posts: 588

    DavidL said:

    ping said:

    @DavidL

    The Craig Murray trial seems bonkers to me. As he said, Kafkaesque.

    The really fun bit is the suggested abolition of Juries for rape trials.

    When that doesn't achieve the aim, I presume the next idea up is the reversal of the presumption of innocence. Some have already demanded that.
    We already have a quite absurd situation in Scotland where it is not possible to lead any evidence that might relate to the sexual history of the complainer with very limited exceptions. Evidence that the complainer consented to sex on other occasions before or after the alleged offence is "collateral" and inadmissible. In contrast the Crown is able to lodge a docquet to the Indictment giving notice that evidence will be led that the accused behaved in a similar way to what is alleged in the instant case, even if he was acquitted on the previous occasion. This is apparently not collateral but helpful to the Jury in their determination. If there is a rational explanation of the apparent incompatibility of these 2 approaches I have yet to hear it.

    The statutory provisions relating to this were introduced after a truly idiotic counsel waved the complainer's flimsy knickers around in from of the Jury asking whether someone who was wearing something like this was really not up for sex. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and inexcusable. The problem now is that the Courts have extended these rules to the point that the role of the Jury is being undermined. They are being asked to make a decision in the absence of relevant information of a type which we would use to determine the likelihood of anything else.

    This can be very unfair on the accused. The fact that a person allegedly raped consented to sex a couple of days later absolutely does not mean that they were not raped 2 days previously but for a Jury trying to determine the truth or otherwise of the allegation it is hardly irrelevant.

    It can also be extremely unfair on the complainer. Juries pick up on the fact that they are not being given the whole picture and don't like it. The accused gets far more of the benefit of the doubt than he is entitled to as a result. And they do not convict even when they probably should.
    And so it goes.

    The interesting thing, according to some people doing legal research, is that actually looking at the convictions rates and the causes of them is considered dangerous.

    As in, if you publish something that can be Daily Mailed to make it look extreme in either direction, you are looking at fates ranging from loosing your PhD to being un-employable.

    So people are shying away from studying this....
    I genuinely don't understand what people think they are going to achieve by making changes in this area of law.
    By their very nature, many rape cases are unprovable. There are usually no witnesses. The only point disputed is often if the sex which everyone agrees occurred was consentual or not - and without witnesses that's basically a "he says/she says" problem.

    Yes, this does mean that almost nobody gets convicted of these sorts of rapes - but unfortunately the only alternative is to lower the burden of proof and risk lots of miscarriages of justice.

    People blaming the CPS for either a) not taking these sorts of cases to court, or b) losing most of them, need to be realistic - this isn't like prosecuting drink drivers or burglars caught carrying bags of stolen goods marked "swag", and so charge and conviction rates are always going to be low.

    I suspect that a good deal of this is driven by the old fashioned "all men are rapists" school of feminism, but they shouldn't get to demolish the general principle of English law that "better ten guilty men escape than one innocent man suffer".
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,408

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Max 55 for SPotY does sound high but even if he is nominated in a crowded year, it is hard to see him winning. Max got only 4 per cent of the vote in 2016 (Rio Olympics; Andy Murray won).
    Spoty is a tricky betting heat. My record is mixed. Lost big time on Rory McIlroy in 2014. Thought he was nailed on. But I got Mo at a great price the year he won.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    This high jump is quite a contest.

    Including Mitchell Starc’s younger brother!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Starc
    I thought he would never walk again after falling from that tower.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,983
    Alistair said:

    I found [70] to [90] in the judgement utterly damning.

    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2021hcj002.pdf?sfvrsn=0

    The judges rejected most of the Crown complaints but still found Murray to be deliberately trying to identify the accusers.

    you don't write a "parody" then tell everyone to very carefully read between the lines and expect to get away with it.

    They could have pretended it was fair mind you and had a couple of the supposed mainstream journalists who did everything but put full names in up as well. It smacks of a stitch up yet again , one rule for those that support the government and disaster for those that don't. The sentence as well is absolutely unbelievable, took them 3 months to come up with that.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,983

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't find Whitlock even listed in the Spoty market.

    I got £3 on him @ 40-1 on Sky Bet.
    I'd like to see him win. BF have put him in now @ 55 which looks high to me.
    Max 55 for SPotY does sound high but even if he is nominated in a crowded year, it is hard to see him winning. Max got only 4 per cent of the vote in 2016 (Rio Olympics; Andy Murray won).
    True, but in 2016 he did beat the Kennys and Peaty and none of those who beat him will be in the mix this time.

    Lewis Hamilton is the joker in the pack in my opinion.
    imo (not that I have a good record so take this with a pinch of NZ salt) SPotY is not about sport. It is just another reality show.

    Who will be nominated given the BBC has boxes to tick across sports, sexes and don't forget the paralympics?
    Is there a bloc vote?
    Is there a split vote?
    Does your wife want to mother him?
    Does your daughter want to boff him?
    There are some desperate people roaming the streets.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,738
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
    Lambs are sheep, not a form of cattle. Nor do you need to deforest areas to graze sheep or goats, or for the matter of that deer (exhibit A - the Forest of Dean).

    Try not to confuse the general and the specific.

    (Incidentally, I know in advance that Hyufd will try to explain to me that actually sheep do need open pasture and are a form of cattle. It's those who might be confused by his posts that I'm speaking to here.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,801
    theProle said:

    DavidL said:

    ping said:

    @DavidL

    The Craig Murray trial seems bonkers to me. As he said, Kafkaesque.

    The really fun bit is the suggested abolition of Juries for rape trials.

    When that doesn't achieve the aim, I presume the next idea up is the reversal of the presumption of innocence. Some have already demanded that.
    We already have a quite absurd situation in Scotland where it is not possible to lead any evidence that might relate to the sexual history of the complainer with very limited exceptions. Evidence that the complainer consented to sex on other occasions before or after the alleged offence is "collateral" and inadmissible. In contrast the Crown is able to lodge a docquet to the Indictment giving notice that evidence will be led that the accused behaved in a similar way to what is alleged in the instant case, even if he was acquitted on the previous occasion. This is apparently not collateral but helpful to the Jury in their determination. If there is a rational explanation of the apparent incompatibility of these 2 approaches I have yet to hear it.

    The statutory provisions relating to this were introduced after a truly idiotic counsel waved the complainer's flimsy knickers around in from of the Jury asking whether someone who was wearing something like this was really not up for sex. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and inexcusable. The problem now is that the Courts have extended these rules to the point that the role of the Jury is being undermined. They are being asked to make a decision in the absence of relevant information of a type which we would use to determine the likelihood of anything else.

    This can be very unfair on the accused. The fact that a person allegedly raped consented to sex a couple of days later absolutely does not mean that they were not raped 2 days previously but for a Jury trying to determine the truth or otherwise of the allegation it is hardly irrelevant.

    It can also be extremely unfair on the complainer. Juries pick up on the fact that they are not being given the whole picture and don't like it. The accused gets far more of the benefit of the doubt than he is entitled to as a result. And they do not convict even when they probably should.
    And so it goes.

    The interesting thing, according to some people doing legal research, is that actually looking at the convictions rates and the causes of them is considered dangerous.

    As in, if you publish something that can be Daily Mailed to make it look extreme in either direction, you are looking at fates ranging from loosing your PhD to being un-employable.

    So people are shying away from studying this....
    I genuinely don't understand what people think they are going to achieve by making changes in this area of law.
    By their very nature, many rape cases are unprovable. There are usually no witnesses. The only point disputed is often if the sex which everyone agrees occurred was consentual or not - and without witnesses that's basically a "he says/she says" problem.

    Yes, this does mean that almost nobody gets convicted of these sorts of rapes - but unfortunately the only alternative is to lower the burden of proof and risk lots of miscarriages of justice.

    People blaming the CPS for either a) not taking these sorts of cases to court, or b) losing most of them, need to be realistic - this isn't like prosecuting drink drivers or burglars caught carrying bags of stolen goods marked "swag", and so charge and conviction rates are always going to be low.

    I suspect that a good deal of this is driven by the old fashioned "all men are rapists" school of feminism, but they shouldn't get to demolish the general principle of English law that "better ten guilty men escape than one innocent man suffer".
    The other way of looking at this is

    - undoubtedly a number the guilty are getting away with it.
    - some modern political philosophy holds that outcomes are the only measure of fairness. See institutional racism.
    - this type of political philosophy holds that to achieve the required outcome, everything is up for the chop.
  • Sandpit said:

    spudgfsh said:

    tlg86 said:

    Its interesting that in nearly every event in athletics, the WR now is much better than 20-30 years ago (if we exclude the couple of female events where one was juiced of their tits and the other was errrh a man)...but high jump, todays competitors in both men and women still can't get even get near the WR from 30+ years ago.

    Jonathan Edwards still holds the triple jump record.
    Yes, good call. Even he couldn't get close to it after he did it.

    Actually, long jump still stands as well from 30 years ago. Do they get close?
    not really.

    https://www.worldathletics.org/records/all-time-toplists/jumps/long-jump/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=world&windReading=regular&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1900-01-01&lastDay=2021-08-01

    before the current record the previous one was Bob Beamon from 1968 (and not that much different)
    The long jump is one of those wierd records. Beamon jumped out of the pit in 1968, Powell bettered it in 1995 with a few competitors, and no-one has been near it since.
    Should we be suspicious of this?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,779
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss says the UK is on the verge of a trade deal with New Zealand

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1421744617020608513?s=20

    Oh, thank God for that!...We are all saved.....
    More seriously, it is another step towards being accepted into the CPTPP.

    Which will really upset some people, for a fairly obvious reason.
    The only thing outstanding is the small matter of diverting all our trade through the Pitcairns.
    thankfully we should be able to purchase cabbages from Christmas Island, potatoes from Pitcairn Island, asperagus from Australia, tomatoes from Tahiti, (anymore alliterative veg?), once our farming industry goes to the wall.
    It won't go to the wall, there will be great demand in Australia and New Zealand for British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg
    Evidence? Seem to recall more than adequate beef when I've been to Aussie; indeed they export it to SE Asia and Japan. New Zealand, as I recall, has excellent, and excellent supplies of milk. Can't imagine that our fruit can compete with theirs, either.
    What you haven't mentioned is that the Aussies were quite keen to replace the sales of wine to China that they've recently lost.
    We also produce our own beef and lamb it may surprise you to know and there are excellent English sparkling wines as well now but no reason consumers both here and in Australia and New Zealand cannot have more choice and removal of tariffs, unless you are anti free trade.

    Not quite, my West Essex friend. You claimed that Aussies and Kiwis would be falling over themselves to buy, and I quote, 'British chicken and beef and milk and fruit and veg'.
    Which I doubted, and sought evidence from you..

    I have no problem with the concept of Free Trade, although it is not necessarily the answer to all problems and does create some.
    For example an increase in the availability, and decrease in the price, of Aussie sparkling wine might well have a negative effect on our own local industry.
    You are also forgetting it is not all one way traffic, our exports to Australia will also be cheaper.

    Whisky, Brussels Sprouts, venison, cider etc all relatively rare in Australia and New Zealand and ripe for export from the UK to them.

    Surely Australia and New Zealand will get their Brussels Sprouts from the EU, not from us? The clue's in the name.
    The EU does not have a trade deal with Australia and New Zealand yet, they do with us now, so our Brussels Sprouts will be cheaper.

    There are huge opportunities for British Brussels Sprout farmers now in Australia and New Zealand
    I have liked that because I haven't laughed so much for ages.

    Will these be fresh or frozen? Traditionally a Christmas veg which will get there after Christmas. Even we don't eat them from frozen out of season. If they are interested why doesn't New Zealand grow them themselves?

    You are planning to export a bulky cheap vegetable half way around the world that they can grow themselves if they wanted to.

    There must be so many other opportunities you could have picked that are better.
    I would have thought out of all British food and drink products Brussels Sprouts are amongst the least likely to be home produced or grown in Australia and New Zealand, thus it will have amongst the highest demand for British exporters of it to there.

    Especially as we now have a trade deal with them unlike the EU
    They grow the things in profusion in Australia, as 30 seconds on this thing called Google shows.

    https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/how-to-make-brussels-sprouts-taste-delicious/12299690

    And when the cost of carbon tax is added, forget exporting to Oz.
    That is a recipe for Brussels Sprouts, not a link to vast numbers of Brussels Sprouts farmers in Australia. Brussels Sprouts are one of the least grown vegetables in Australia, in fact not even in the top 15 Australian vegetable crops
    https://ausveg.com.au/resources/economics-statistics/australian-vegetable-production-statistics/

    EU Brussels Sprout exporters of course would have to deal with high tariffs, unlike the UK, as well as a carbon tax (though of course a carbon tax would equally apply to Australian imports here in time)
    Lets look at exports then

    https://www.worldstopexports.com/top-brussels-sprouts-exports-by-country/
    Yes, we are a top 10 Brussels sprouts exporter unlike Australia and New Zealand
    Australia exports more Brussels Sprouts per capita than we do. You can never simply admit that you were mistaken?

    It's so incredibly childish.
    I was not mistaken, we export more Brussels Sprouts than Australia and New Zealand do.

    If you were talking carrots you might have had a point, there Australia is a top 10 exporter unlike us

    https://www.tridge.com/intelligences/carrot/export
    You are wrong.

    On its own that's fine. Life is a series of mistakes. As someone said on here a day or two ago, we all make them.

    What is contemptible is that you refuse ever to admit to error. It is impossible to have any sort of public debate if someone will not admit to error when confronted with the facts.

    You are everything that is wrong with politics in this country, and democracies more generally.
    Well if I continue to annoy left liberals like you all to the good, I will carry on with gusto! I would be more concerned if I wasn't.

    I was also not wrong, the UK is a top 10 brussels sprout exporter unlike Australia as even your own link confirmed
    There's a massive difference between annoying me by holding political views I dislike, or worse, by coming up with good arguments for political views that I dislike - as several of the right-wing posters on here manage - and annoying me by failing to observe a basic principle of public debate - not to lie about the facts.

    The first is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the second will be the death of it.

    And on a personal level it is a sign of being a weak-minded coward not to be willing to admit to mistakes. You're pathetic.
    There was no lie, as your own link showed the UK is a top 10 brussel sprouts exporter unlike Australia. You have also refused to concede that.

    I of course could not care less what you think of me
    It wasn't my link. I did not dispute the fact of British exports, so I have nothing to concede. You are in denial of Australian exports of Brussels Sprouts.

    In his own words, HYUFD is talking absolute carrots today.
    I posted earlier I was not in denial of Australian exports of carrots, I accept Australia leads us in the world carrot trade
    :smiley:
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,175
    There you go @FrancisUrquhart - WR in the women’s triple jump.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,136
    edited August 2021
    That triple jump WR wad weird, it is like she got it all wrong and wasn't trying.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,763
    Raining in Hungary. Could be an interesting first lap.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,589
    100M: I'm on Kerley who seems a bit overpriced to me.

    My wife - that authority on all things sporting - also has him as her confident selection, based on "his most impressive trouser bulge".

    So there we have it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,983

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Not least, the equity markets are long overdue a major correction.

    I see no particular reason why asset prices should nosedive so long as interest rates remain close to zero. If leaving money in the bank means that its value gradually gets inflated away, people who have wealth are always going to want to invest it elsewhere.

    I also see no particular reason why interest rates should rise significantly. Many or most governments, businesses and individuals are more heavily indebted than ever because of the pandemic. What incentive is there for central banks to strangle their economies by cranking up the cost of servicing those debts?
    How sweet. You think that central banks can indefinitely control interest rates.

    And “elsewhere” does not have to be equity.
    Actually, yes, I do.

    And there is nowhere else to go, apart from sovereign bonds which will simply serve to continue to depress yields. If, theoretically, everyone tried to pile into property there wouldn't be enough of it in the world to meet the demand.

    Any post-pandemic burst of inflation is liable to be temporary. The future is Japan: low inflation, low growth, rock bottom interest rates.
    The future is Japan: low inflation, low growth, rock bottom interest rates…

    … rock bottom reproduction rates, near zero immigration, old and rapidly aging population unable to be supported by shrinking labour pool.

    In other words, an unhealthy society.

    Greens will love the “low growth” bit though.
    Schoolinh result
    But you’re wrong if you think that central banks can indefinitely control interest rates. The real economic truths always fell the proud in the end.
    Isn't Scotland like tgat save for early deaths due to drink and drugs add appalling schooling and a Govt akin to Japan.. almost but not quite twins....
    . .
    Scotland differs from Japan in a multitude of ways, not least of which is the immigration factor. Scotland has a strong flow of immigrants.
    I thought that was surplanted by an even bigger exodus
    Nope.

    Evolution of the population of Scotland 1954–2014. Data from National Records of Scotland 2014.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mid-year_Estimates_of_Scotland's_Population_54-14.png

    1500 500,000
    1600 800,000
    1707 1,000,000
    1755 1,265,380
    1801 1,608,420
    1811 1,805,864
    1821 2,091,521
    1831 2,364,386
    1841 2,620,184
    1851 2,888,742
    1861 3,062,294
    1871 3,360,018
    1881 3,735,578
    1891 4,025,647
    1901 4,472,103
    1911 4,760,904
    1921 4,882,407
    1931 4,842,989
    1939 5,006,700
    1951 5,095,969
    1961 5,179,000
    1971 5,229,000
    1981 5,035,000
    1991 5,083,000
    2001 5,062,000
    2011 5,295,000
    2019 5,463,300
    The Scottish population is up by 11.9% over the last ~century.

    By way of comparison the English population is +59.8% over the same period (and this is the sole reason for the public funding imbalance, the difference in population growth, the Barnett formula is actually intended to eliminate the difference that arose as a result).

    And, for completeness since the comparison with Japan was made initially, their population is +124.5% over the last century.
    I realise that Willy Waving Competitions are de rigeur around here, but you are deep into straw man territory.

    I was simply countering squareroot2’s post: “I thought that was surplanted by an even bigger exodus”. To which the answer is: no.
    Look, I am interested in numbers. If you present me with a list of numbers I am going to look for interesting things in those numbers.

    I'm not interested in your Nationalistic competitions.
    bollox , he showed the claim was bollox and you and the other jingo bells on here had to boast that England's population had grown more and you have the cheek to accuse him of nationalistic competition. Pathetic, if you are going to be xenophobic at least own it instead of wobbling behind the sofa pretending a big boy is calling you names..
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904

    That triple jump WR wad weird, it is like she got it all wrong and wasn't trying.

    Amazing jump phase. Step phase barely there at all. Terrific speed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,646
    edited August 2021
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
    Lambs are sheep, not a form of cattle. Nor do you need to deforest areas to graze sheep or goats, or for the matter of that deer (exhibit A - the Forest of Dean).

    Try not to confuse the general and the specific.

    (Incidentally, I know in advance that Hyufd will try to explain to me that actually sheep do need open pasture and are a form of cattle. It's those who might be confused by his posts that I'm speaking to here.)
    Lamb is better for the environment and atmosphere than beef but it is still more likely to cause bowel cancer for instance than chicken or fish
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,446
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
    Lambs are sheep, not a form of cattle. Nor do you need to deforest areas to graze sheep or goats, or for the matter of that deer (exhibit A - the Forest of Dean).

    Try not to confuse the general and the specific.

    (Incidentally, I know in advance that Hyufd will try to explain to me that actually sheep do need open pasture and are a form of cattle. It's those who might be confused by his posts that I'm speaking to here.)
    Sheep graze, deer and goats browse. Of course you can graze sheep in "woodland pasture" (second trendiest thing after rewilding) on the grass between trees, but it isn't efficient. People want sheep much more than they want goat or venison.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,284
    A world record on the field :D
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904
    Sandpit said:

    Raining in Hungary. Could be an interesting first lap.

    Do they get to change to wets if its raining? Could be good news for Verstappen.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,136
    edited August 2021
    tlg86 said:

    There you go @FrancisUrquhart - WR in the women’s triple jump.

    That isn't a surprise though, as the lady has got close before.

    We were talking about WR that have stood for ages but nobody gets near. Women 800m being the most stand out (cough cough)...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,763
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Raining in Hungary. Could be an interesting first lap.

    Do they get to change to wets if its raining? Could be good news for Verstappen.
    They can start on wets if they wish. If they starts on drys, it has to be the specific tyre they ran in Q2.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 936
    Well, Johnson is not quite in the Gavin Williamson class, but very nearly. If he can go as low as this in ultra-Conservative Con Home polls, he cannot remain in post very much longer.

    Williamson is kept in place by Johnson's having the final say. Johnson stays, only because the Tory MPs have no backbone. If they did, this chancer would be gone tomorrow.

    And poor old HY would be looking for his next idol to worship.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,024

    Sandpit said:

    spudgfsh said:

    tlg86 said:

    Its interesting that in nearly every event in athletics, the WR now is much better than 20-30 years ago (if we exclude the couple of female events where one was juiced of their tits and the other was errrh a man)...but high jump, todays competitors in both men and women still can't get even get near the WR from 30+ years ago.

    Jonathan Edwards still holds the triple jump record.
    Yes, good call. Even he couldn't get close to it after he did it.

    Actually, long jump still stands as well from 30 years ago. Do they get close?
    not really.

    https://www.worldathletics.org/records/all-time-toplists/jumps/long-jump/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=world&windReading=regular&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1900-01-01&lastDay=2021-08-01

    before the current record the previous one was Bob Beamon from 1968 (and not that much different)
    The long jump is one of those wierd records. Beamon jumped out of the pit in 1968, Powell bettered it in 1995 with a few competitors, and no-one has been near it since.
    Should we be suspicious of this?
    Here's an idea: shoes.

    You'd expect technology to move on, and for things like shoes to improve and help with every step. But what if the modern shoes are actually fairly poor for these sorts of events, as opposed to things like running or football, and lead to slightly more injuries?

    Probably way off-base ...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,136
    edited August 2021

    Sandpit said:

    spudgfsh said:

    tlg86 said:

    Its interesting that in nearly every event in athletics, the WR now is much better than 20-30 years ago (if we exclude the couple of female events where one was juiced of their tits and the other was errrh a man)...but high jump, todays competitors in both men and women still can't get even get near the WR from 30+ years ago.

    Jonathan Edwards still holds the triple jump record.
    Yes, good call. Even he couldn't get close to it after he did it.

    Actually, long jump still stands as well from 30 years ago. Do they get close?
    not really.

    https://www.worldathletics.org/records/all-time-toplists/jumps/long-jump/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=world&windReading=regular&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1900-01-01&lastDay=2021-08-01

    before the current record the previous one was Bob Beamon from 1968 (and not that much different)
    The long jump is one of those wierd records. Beamon jumped out of the pit in 1968, Powell bettered it in 1995 with a few competitors, and no-one has been near it since.
    Should we be suspicious of this?
    Here's an idea: shoes.

    You'd expect technology to move on, and for things like shoes to improve and help with every step. But what if the modern shoes are actually fairly poor for these sorts of events, as opposed to things like running or football, and lead to slightly more injuries?

    Probably way off-base ...
    I would have thought the likes of Nike spend millions researching this. I highly doubt they are subpar compared to 30-40 years ago, given how every other part of their preparation is optimised.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 588
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Apart from HYUFD being utterly wrong, he also misses the point.

    The U.K. is (was?) a global services super-power, second only to the US. With the notable exception of whisky and salmon, we are agricultural weaklings.

    Any trade deal should be examined for how well it facilitates our services trade. NZ (nor Australia) does not want our frost-damaged brassica.

    As I mentioned earlier (and you ignored) Australia and New Zealand also have not a single car factory or assembly line left now, unlike us.

    So there are plenty of opportunities to expand our car exports there too, not just our services (and brussels sprouts) exports
    Cars being shipped from here to the very furthest opposite point of the planet - this surely makes no sense when you take a step back and really consider it.
    Au contraire.

    They require a lot of capital infrastructure to manufacture - so only some places can make them.

    And they are expensive - so shipping is a v small part of the overall cost.

    They’re actually the perfect thing to ship to the opposite point of the planet.

    Unlike, say, sprouts.
    Financially, ok, for now, but aren't we moving towards a high tech, clean, digital future whereby all of this hauling serious physical matter from one part of the globe to another ceases to be the norm?
    We are also supposedly meant to be drastically cutting our red meat intake too to improve our health and reduce the need for deforestation and methane emissions from cattle.

    Which would also mean a decline in future demand for Australian beef and NZ lamb
    You will be losing the Tories the anti-woke vote with such heresy!
    I am not saying you can never have a steak or roast lamb again, just cut the amount a bit and eat more chicken and fish and vegetables instead
    And the anti-wokers are not saying they will never vote Tory again, just that they will be forced to often vote for Reclaim or Reform.
    They might prefer full fat steak and beefburgers every day with Farage in midterm but come general election time and the choice is roast beef and fry ups with Boris alternated with roast chicken and fish (from Carrie) or nutroast and tofu with Starmer they will come home
    https://plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/food/vegetarian-keir-starmer-still-misses-bacon/
    Personally as a former Tory voter, I can't really see the point in voting Tory.
    I believe in sound money, and in the idea of individual freedom and responsibility.
    It's also blindingly obvious that the cure for climate change is adaption rather than eco-stupidity, given that the Chinese have evidently decided we're going to get climate change like it or not.

    Currently Johnson and Co* have entirely failed on all these points. Why bother re-election them - it's hard to see how Stamer will be any worse - he mostly dictates his mob to vote with the government anyway, to ensure that Johnson's sane back benches can't ever defeat him.

    I'd vote for the Tories if Steve Baker lead them, but I can't see me voting for them again under the present leadership.

    *I'd no real expectation that Johnson had any principles. Where I am disappointed is that the power behind the throne turns out to be wet idiots like Carrie - I'd be hoping it might have those who were both been more sane and less Green/Libdem hybris.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500
    High Jump they just asked the two leading athletes if they wanted to continue competing for gold and silver or have a gold each.....err why would anyone choose to compete on!?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,446
    Team GB top in dressidge phase of eventing, if not already noted.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Raining in Hungary. Could be an interesting first lap.

    Do they get to change to wets if its raining? Could be good news for Verstappen.
    They can start on wets if they wish. If they starts on drys, it has to be the specific tyre they ran in Q2.
    Doesn't look that wet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,136
    edited August 2021

    High Jump they just asked the two leading athletes if they wanted to continue competing for gold and silver or have a gold each.....err why would anyone choose to compete on!?

    If it was the Jamaican ladies from the 100m, they wouldn't share it.....
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,890
    I went to pick up the wife from Heathrow and was told to expect 3-6 hour delays post landing. Her flight from Boston got in at 8 and I planned to leave the house at 8.30 so as to get there at 10 on the off chance it took less. At 8.20, drinking a coffee, leisurely reading the paper and getting ready to leave, I get an exasperated call from Mrs Seal asking me where TF I was. Flight landed at 8, she was through immigration and customs in 20 minutes. I’m not Mr Popular today.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,763
    Here goes then, the 100m final.

    I’ll be really annoyed if it isnt’t over before the Grand Prix starts.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,801
    ClippP said:

    Well, Johnson is not quite in the Gavin Williamson class, but very nearly. If he can go as low as this in ultra-Conservative Con Home polls, he cannot remain in post very much longer.

    Williamson is kept in place by Johnson's having the final say. Johnson stays, only because the Tory MPs have no backbone. If they did, this chancer would be gone tomorrow.

    And poor old HY would be looking for his next idol to worship.
    ConHome was never much to do with the Conservative Party despite the name. More UKIP than anything else, really.
This discussion has been closed.