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How the PM’s leader ratings are moving – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 20 in General
imageHow the PM’s leader ratings are moving – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    First
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Totally off topic but ITVs cooking with the stars is truly terrible.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Asia is quite concerning now


    Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, all heading into big new waves. Indonesia reporting 1,200 dead today. Feck


    Meanwhile the Guardian reports that the real death toll in India is 4 MILLION - ie ten times the official death toll, which confirms the most appalling estimates, which were sometimes dismissed as scare-mongering

    If India alone has actually suffered 4 million dead so far, then what is the true global total? 15 million? 20 million? And how high might it go?

    Covid is already one of the worst pandemics in all human history

    The Telegraph says up to 5 million.
    Bloody hell

    I recall reading the claim, weeks back, that the Indian death toll was understated "ten to fifteen times" judging by the amount of cremations taking place compared with normality

    Something in me rebelled against this, and pigeon holed it as "alarmism"

    Now it seems it is true. Grim

    I wonder if we will ever know the true death toll in China. It beggars belief that 1.4 billion Indians can suffer 5 million dead, with more to come, and neighbouring China, with a similarly vast population, has just.... 4,600 dead?

    A thousand times fewer. Really? How?
    It’s the great mystery of our age how covid didn’t ravage every corner of China, given the millions of people that travelled from or passed through Wuhan the week before their Chinese New Year lockdown.

    No one serious seems to want to talk about it because it raises quite uncomfortable possibilities. Better to just ignore it.
    Tish tish. They're just REALLY good at stapling people inside houses. Don't worry yourself about this. Next question
    You see the thing is, this is what they did in Wuhan after the horse had long since bolted. But I haven’t heard of them doing it anywhere else. It’s hard to comprehend the sheer mass of humanity that moves in Chinese golden week unless you’ve seen it.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090007/china-confirmed-and-suspected-wuhan-coronavirus-cases-region/

    Now sure we can look at these stats and note the implausibility of them. But it is very interesting how we never saw visible signs of stress anywhere else outside of Wuhan itself. The Communist Party in inland China is not known for its competence.

    There is something decidedly odd about this story that does not hang together. My personal pet theory is that sarscov2 ravaged through most of east Asia in 2019 under the radar but perhaps with a less severe strain. And this had the effect of taking out the vulnerable before we even realised there was a pandemic, and allowed the build up of background immunity without anyone realising. Take a look at the 2019 mortality stats in Japan and Singapore, two countries with high rates of travel from China and reliable stats. You’ll see why I lean this way. Also note the evidence of infections in Europe as early as October 2019.

    Doubtless someone will have the evidence to prove why this is wrong. Fair enough if so. But what is the answer then?
    1. They still have some pretty severe restrictons across China, plus lots of travel quarantining
    2. They do still have local flare ups
    3. And they do sometimes go full lockdown at a City level
    4. Local governors in China know that they need to tell the world they are Covid free, whatever thereality is
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    FPT
    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    alex_ said:

    UK and France agree deal to tackle rise in Channel crossings

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57909188

    These are vulnerable, desperate, human beings fleeing violence and persecution.

    We need to agree with France a means of processing and approving their requests in France, not bloody Rwanda, and bringing them to the UK to start their new life.
    Or how about france grants them asylum and they can start a new life
    If they wish to come here for whatever reason. Family, diaspora already here, unaccompanied child, we should let them. I can’t see why we wouldn’t
    How many syrian refugees were there...7 million or so? Are you seriously arguing we should take them all if they want to come? And the next year another 5 million from some other war torn shit hole? How many is your limit. Because this is exactly what you are arguing for with your "If people want to come we should let them" and fuck the rest of us as our services get overwhelmed and our standard of living drops
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 25,169
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Asia is quite concerning now


    Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, all heading into big new waves. Indonesia reporting 1,200 dead today. Feck


    Meanwhile the Guardian reports that the real death toll in India is 4 MILLION - ie ten times the official death toll, which confirms the most appalling estimates, which were sometimes dismissed as scare-mongering

    If India alone has actually suffered 4 million dead so far, then what is the true global total? 15 million? 20 million? And how high might it go?

    Covid is already one of the worst pandemics in all human history

    The Telegraph says up to 5 million.
    Bloody hell

    I recall reading the claim, weeks back, that the Indian death toll was understated "ten to fifteen times" judging by the amount of cremations taking place compared with normality

    Something in me rebelled against this, and pigeon holed it as "alarmism"

    Now it seems it is true. Grim

    I wonder if we will ever know the true death toll in China. It beggars belief that 1.4 billion Indians can suffer 5 million dead, with more to come, and neighbouring China, with a similarly vast population, has just.... 4,600 dead?

    A thousand times fewer. Really? How?
    It’s the great mystery of our age how covid didn’t ravage every corner of China, given the millions of people that travelled from or passed through Wuhan the week before their Chinese New Year lockdown.

    No one serious seems to want to talk about it because it raises quite uncomfortable possibilities. Better to just ignore it.
    Tish tish. They're just REALLY good at stapling people inside houses. Don't worry yourself about this. Next question
    You see the thing is, this is what they did in Wuhan after the horse had long since bolted. But I haven’t heard of them doing it anywhere else. It’s hard to comprehend the sheer mass of humanity that moves in Chinese golden week unless you’ve seen it.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090007/china-confirmed-and-suspected-wuhan-coronavirus-cases-region/

    Now sure we can look at these stats and note the implausibility of them. But it is very interesting how we never saw visible signs of stress anywhere else outside of Wuhan itself. The Communist Party in inland China is not known for its competence.

    There is something decidedly odd about this story that does not hang together. My personal pet theory is that sarscov2 ravaged through most of east Asia in 2019 under the radar but perhaps with a less severe strain. And this had the effect of taking out the vulnerable before we even realised there was a pandemic, and allowed the build up of background immunity without anyone realising. Take a look at the 2019 mortality stats in Japan and Singapore, two countries with high rates of travel from China and reliable stats. You’ll see why I lean this way. Also note the evidence of infections in Europe as early as October 2019.

    Doubtless someone will have the evidence to prove why this is wrong. Fair enough if so. But what is the answer then?
    1. They still have some pretty severe restrictons across China, plus lots of travel quarantining
    2. They do still have local flare ups
    3. And they do sometimes go full lockdown at a City level
    4. Local governors in China know that they need to tell the world they are Covid free, whatever thereality is
    I don't think there were major flare ups outside Wuhan. When things get really out of control, there is no hiding it.

    They may struggle with Delta though. Other Asian countries have.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Asia is quite concerning now


    Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, all heading into big new waves. Indonesia reporting 1,200 dead today. Feck


    Meanwhile the Guardian reports that the real death toll in India is 4 MILLION - ie ten times the official death toll, which confirms the most appalling estimates, which were sometimes dismissed as scare-mongering

    If India alone has actually suffered 4 million dead so far, then what is the true global total? 15 million? 20 million? And how high might it go?

    Covid is already one of the worst pandemics in all human history

    The Telegraph says up to 5 million.
    Bloody hell

    I recall reading the claim, weeks back, that the Indian death toll was understated "ten to fifteen times" judging by the amount of cremations taking place compared with normality

    Something in me rebelled against this, and pigeon holed it as "alarmism"

    Now it seems it is true. Grim

    I wonder if we will ever know the true death toll in China. It beggars belief that 1.4 billion Indians can suffer 5 million dead, with more to come, and neighbouring China, with a similarly vast population, has just.... 4,600 dead?

    A thousand times fewer. Really? How?
    It’s the great mystery of our age how covid didn’t ravage every corner of China, given the millions of people that travelled from or passed through Wuhan the week before their Chinese New Year lockdown.

    No one serious seems to want to talk about it because it raises quite uncomfortable possibilities. Better to just ignore it.
    Tish tish. They're just REALLY good at stapling people inside houses. Don't worry yourself about this. Next question
    You see the thing is, this is what they did in Wuhan after the horse had long since bolted. But I haven’t heard of them doing it anywhere else. It’s hard to comprehend the sheer mass of humanity that moves in Chinese golden week unless you’ve seen it.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090007/china-confirmed-and-suspected-wuhan-coronavirus-cases-region/

    Now sure we can look at these stats and note the implausibility of them. But it is very interesting how we never saw visible signs of stress anywhere else outside of Wuhan itself. The Communist Party in inland China is not known for its competence.

    There is something decidedly odd about this story that does not hang together. My personal pet theory is that sarscov2 ravaged through most of east Asia in 2019 under the radar but perhaps with a less severe strain. And this had the effect of taking out the vulnerable before we even realised there was a pandemic, and allowed the build up of background immunity without anyone realising. Take a look at the 2019 mortality stats in Japan and Singapore, two countries with high rates of travel from China and reliable stats. You’ll see why I lean this way. Also note the evidence of infections in Europe as early as October 2019.

    Doubtless someone will have the evidence to prove why this is wrong. Fair enough if so. But what is the answer then?
    1. They still have some pretty severe restrictons across China, plus lots of travel quarantining
    2. They do still have local flare ups
    3. And they do sometimes go full lockdown at a City level
    4. Local governors in China know that they need to tell the world they are Covid free, whatever thereality is
    Or they just designed the bug in their own lab and therefore they knew what to do pretty quickly, as

    Whoops

    Sorry
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 42,918
    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    alex_ said:

    UK and France agree deal to tackle rise in Channel crossings

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57909188

    These are vulnerable, desperate, human beings fleeing violence and persecution.

    We need to agree with France a means of processing and approving their requests in France, not bloody Rwanda, and bringing them to the UK to start their new life.
    Or how about france grants them asylum and they can start a new life
    If they wish to come here for whatever reason. Family, diaspora already here, unaccompanied child, we should let them. I can’t see why we wouldn’t
    How many syrian refugees were there...7 million or so? Are you seriously arguing we should take them all if they want to come? And the next year another 5 million from some other war torn shit hole? How many is your limit. Because this is exactly what you are arguing for with your "If people want to come we should let them" and fuck the rest of us as our services get overwhelmed and our standard of living drops
    My problem with "safe and legal routes" is exactly this.

    What it means is making it even easier to get here, and you could easily increase the numbers ten or twenty fold if we did that.

    We'd end up with overburdened social services and impromptu camps/ shanty towns outside almost every population centre of significance in the south-east.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    alex_ said:

    UK and France agree deal to tackle rise in Channel crossings

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57909188

    These are vulnerable, desperate, human beings fleeing violence and persecution.

    We need to agree with France a means of processing and approving their requests in France, not bloody Rwanda, and bringing them to the UK to start their new life.
    Or how about france grants them asylum and they can start a new life
    If they wish to come here for whatever reason. Family, diaspora already here, unaccompanied child, we should let them. I can’t see why we wouldn’t
    How many syrian refugees were there...7 million or so? Are you seriously arguing we should take them all if they want to come? And the next year another 5 million from some other war torn shit hole? How many is your limit. Because this is exactly what you are arguing for with your "If people want to come we should let them" and fuck the rest of us as our services get overwhelmed and our standard of living drops
    My problem with "safe and legal routes" is exactly this.

    What it means is making it even easier to get here, and you could easily increase the numbers ten or twenty fold if we did that.

    We'd end up with overburdened social services and impromptu camps/ shanty towns outside almost every population centre of significance in the south-east.
    Much as I dislike Cameron I will admit he had the right idea take a quota from the refugee camps
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,147
    FPT
    @Charles Sounds like a life well lived
  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,426
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    alex_ said:

    UK and France agree deal to tackle rise in Channel crossings

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57909188

    These are vulnerable, desperate, human beings fleeing violence and persecution.

    We need to agree with France a means of processing and approving their requests in France, not bloody Rwanda, and bringing them to the UK to start their new life.
    Or how about france grants them asylum and they can start a new life
    If they wish to come here for whatever reason. Family, diaspora already here, unaccompanied child, we should let them. I can’t see why we wouldn’t
    How many syrian refugees were there...7 million or so? Are you seriously arguing we should take them all if they want to come? And the next year another 5 million from some other war torn shit hole? How many is your limit. Because this is exactly what you are arguing for with your "If people want to come we should let them" and fuck the rest of us as our services get overwhelmed and our standard of living drops
    My problem with "safe and legal routes" is exactly this.

    What it means is making it even easier to get here, and you could easily increase the numbers ten or twenty fold if we did that.

    We'd end up with overburdened social services and impromptu camps/ shanty towns outside almost every population centre of significance in the south-east.
    Much as I dislike Cameron I will admit he had the right idea take a quota from the refugee camps
    That is a much fairer system than the current survival of the fittest approach.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 12,415
    One thing I do agree with Dominic Cummings about: it's wrong for Carrie Johnson to be allegedly seeking to interfere with government appointments/policy.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,147
    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Who else do you vote for if you care about this issue? There is such a shameful vacuum in English politics right now where an Opposition should be.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    RobD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    alex_ said:

    UK and France agree deal to tackle rise in Channel crossings

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57909188

    These are vulnerable, desperate, human beings fleeing violence and persecution.

    We need to agree with France a means of processing and approving their requests in France, not bloody Rwanda, and bringing them to the UK to start their new life.
    Or how about france grants them asylum and they can start a new life
    If they wish to come here for whatever reason. Family, diaspora already here, unaccompanied child, we should let them. I can’t see why we wouldn’t
    How many syrian refugees were there...7 million or so? Are you seriously arguing we should take them all if they want to come? And the next year another 5 million from some other war torn shit hole? How many is your limit. Because this is exactly what you are arguing for with your "If people want to come we should let them" and fuck the rest of us as our services get overwhelmed and our standard of living drops
    My problem with "safe and legal routes" is exactly this.

    What it means is making it even easier to get here, and you could easily increase the numbers ten or twenty fold if we did that.

    We'd end up with overburdened social services and impromptu camps/ shanty towns outside almost every population centre of significance in the south-east.
    Much as I dislike Cameron I will admit he had the right idea take a quota from the refugee camps
    That is a much fairer system than the current survival of the fittest approach.
    Apart from anything taking young males from countries that have been wartorn for most of their teenage years isn't likely to mean you are bringing in well socialized individuals and no I am not claiming its the young males fault just stating things the way they are
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 86,002
    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Voters who are most appalled by that will obviously stick with Boris over Labour or the LDs, so unless Farage returns it will not be a major issue.

    There is only so much they can do anyway without Macron's help in keeping them in France otherwise all they can do is pick them up where they can
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 42,918
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    alex_ said:

    UK and France agree deal to tackle rise in Channel crossings

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57909188

    These are vulnerable, desperate, human beings fleeing violence and persecution.

    We need to agree with France a means of processing and approving their requests in France, not bloody Rwanda, and bringing them to the UK to start their new life.
    Or how about france grants them asylum and they can start a new life
    If they wish to come here for whatever reason. Family, diaspora already here, unaccompanied child, we should let them. I can’t see why we wouldn’t
    How many syrian refugees were there...7 million or so? Are you seriously arguing we should take them all if they want to come? And the next year another 5 million from some other war torn shit hole? How many is your limit. Because this is exactly what you are arguing for with your "If people want to come we should let them" and fuck the rest of us as our services get overwhelmed and our standard of living drops
    My problem with "safe and legal routes" is exactly this.

    What it means is making it even easier to get here, and you could easily increase the numbers ten or twenty fold if we did that.

    We'd end up with overburdened social services and impromptu camps/ shanty towns outside almost every population centre of significance in the south-east.
    Much as I dislike Cameron I will admit he had the right idea take a quota from the refugee camps
    He absolutely did.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 86,002
    Andy_JS said:

    One thing I do agree with Dominic Cummings about: it's wrong for Carrie Johnson to be allegedly seeking to interfere with government appointments/policy.

    Eleanor Roosevelt and Hillary Clinton and Nancy Reagan did regularly
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,045
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    One thing I do agree with Dominic Cummings about: it's wrong for Carrie Johnson to be allegedly seeking to interfere with government appointments/policy.

    Eleanor Roosevelt and Hillary Clinton and Nancy Reagan did regularly
    oh that's all right, then...
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Voters who are most appalled by that will obviously stick with Boris over Labour or the LDs, so unless Farage returns it will not be a major issue.

    There is only so much they can do anyway without Macron's help in keeping them in France otherwise all they can do is pick them up where they can
    Tory voters can abstain, which can be very damaging if it happens en masse

    And yes, Farage could return
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 14,305
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Voters who are most appalled by that will obviously stick with Boris over Labour or the LDs, so unless Farage returns it will not be a major issue.

    There is only so much they can do anyway without Macron's help in keeping them in France otherwise all they can do is pick them up where they can
    I assume that Macron is the one supplying them with boats.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Interesting. Is there a limit to the numbers we should take? 10,000? 100,000? 10 million?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 2,971
    Andy_JS said:

    One thing I do agree with Dominic Cummings about: it's wrong for Carrie Johnson to be allegedly seeking to interfere with government appointments/policy.

    How do you stop a spouse influencing their partner? It’s a fact of life.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 12,415
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    One thing I do agree with Dominic Cummings about: it's wrong for Carrie Johnson to be allegedly seeking to interfere with government appointments/policy.

    Eleanor Roosevelt and Hillary Clinton and Nancy Reagan did regularly
    Doesn't make it okay now.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,147
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Asia is quite concerning now


    Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, all heading into big new waves. Indonesia reporting 1,200 dead today. Feck


    Meanwhile the Guardian reports that the real death toll in India is 4 MILLION - ie ten times the official death toll, which confirms the most appalling estimates, which were sometimes dismissed as scare-mongering

    If India alone has actually suffered 4 million dead so far, then what is the true global total? 15 million? 20 million? And how high might it go?

    Covid is already one of the worst pandemics in all human history

    The Telegraph says up to 5 million.
    Bloody hell

    I recall reading the claim, weeks back, that the Indian death toll was understated "ten to fifteen times" judging by the amount of cremations taking place compared with normality

    Something in me rebelled against this, and pigeon holed it as "alarmism"

    Now it seems it is true. Grim

    I wonder if we will ever know the true death toll in China. It beggars belief that 1.4 billion Indians can suffer 5 million dead, with more to come, and neighbouring China, with a similarly vast population, has just.... 4,600 dead?

    A thousand times fewer. Really? How?
    It’s the great mystery of our age how covid didn’t ravage every corner of China, given the millions of people that travelled from or passed through Wuhan the week before their Chinese New Year lockdown.

    No one serious seems to want to talk about it because it raises quite uncomfortable possibilities. Better to just ignore it.
    Tish tish. They're just REALLY good at stapling people inside houses. Don't worry yourself about this. Next question
    You see the thing is, this is what they did in Wuhan after the horse had long since bolted. But I haven’t heard of them doing it anywhere else. It’s hard to comprehend the sheer mass of humanity that moves in Chinese golden week unless you’ve seen it.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090007/china-confirmed-and-suspected-wuhan-coronavirus-cases-region/

    Now sure we can look at these stats and note the implausibility of them. But it is very interesting how we never saw visible signs of stress anywhere else outside of Wuhan itself. The Communist Party in inland China is not known for its competence.

    There is something decidedly odd about this story that does not hang together. My personal pet theory is that sarscov2 ravaged through most of east Asia in 2019 under the radar but perhaps with a less severe strain. And this had the effect of taking out the vulnerable before we even realised there was a pandemic, and allowed the build up of background immunity without anyone realising. Take a look at the 2019 mortality stats in Japan and Singapore, two countries with high rates of travel from China and reliable stats. You’ll see why I lean this way. Also note the evidence of infections in Europe as early as October 2019.

    Doubtless someone will have the evidence to prove why this is wrong. Fair enough if so. But what is the answer then?
    1. They still have some pretty severe restrictons across China, plus lots of travel quarantining
    2. They do still have local flare ups
    3. And they do sometimes go full lockdown at a City level
    4. Local governors in China know that they need to tell the world they are Covid free, whatever thereality is
    I don't think there were major flare ups outside Wuhan. When things get really out of control, there is no hiding it.

    They may struggle with Delta though. Other Asian countries have.
    When I said “millions” travelled from or through Wuhan the week before Chinese New Year, I wasn’t being hyperbolic of course. These were the communist party’s own figures before being taken offline shortly after publication by China Railways. Those trains were the perfect super spreading event, given by that point it’s clear there was aerosolised transmission. Peculiar…
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 14,305
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Sorry, but are you fecking radge?

    Wave goodbye to the Red Wall forever.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 86,002

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Voters who are most appalled by that will obviously stick with Boris over Labour or the LDs, so unless Farage returns it will not be a major issue.

    There is only so much they can do anyway without Macron's help in keeping them in France otherwise all they can do is pick them up where they can
    I assume that Macron is the one supplying them with boats.
    Macron's focus is obviously getting as many out of France as possible to keep his 2017 vote from going to Le Pen
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 12,415
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 12,368
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    If India has truly suffered 5 million dead, with more to come - relentlessly, it comes - then it looks like Covid will probably kill 25-30 million humans in its first two or three years, maybe a lot more

    That makes it likely the third worst pandemic in history, in sheer numbers, behind only the Flu of 1918 and the Black Death

    We are, unfortunately, living through interesting times

    Yes but in 1918 they had just come off millions of dead in WW1 too and the Black Death was the same time as the Hundred Years War
    It is indeed reassuring to know that the Black Death was, in fact, statistically worse than what we are experiencing now
    Black Death led to such overwhelming mortality that even now, you can visit home counties villages and surmise why that field and that field next to the old church were never built on. In some cases the village lies a couple of miles from the ancient church, as the inhabitants scrambled to move away from the pits. And this is largely from the less severe 17th century plague, not the almost completely devastating plague of the 14th century. I often sit in my very old house and wonder what I’d hear if the walls could talk.
    The Great Plague of 1665-66 was shortly after the English civil war of course
    Or the War of the Three Kingdoms as the less Anglo-centric Britons call them.
    The war was primarily the King and then his son v the English Parliament and Cromwell.

    The Scots changed sides, first supporting Parliament against King Charles 1st, then Prince Charles v Cromwell.

    Ireland was primarily Catholics ultimately supportive of the King against Protestant settlers Cromwell ultimately invaded to support
    FPT - but HYUFD, you really are Anglocentric. It was the Scots who began, and who ended, the Wars of the Covenant. From 1639 to 1746. The Scots didn't change sides. The Stuarts did.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    They can push but they arent in power and pushing will ensure they never are. How many refugees do you call a halt at? That is a serious question. Then answer the question "how do I explain to people they are going to get worse services and pay more tax because we brought in x million refugees. You wonder why people have contempt for labour....we all still remember "Only 13000 will migrants maximum will come from accession countries". Well they were about 100 times out then so whatever figure you give everyone is going to multiply by 100
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 42,918
    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    I said the other day there were emerging threats to Boris's right flank, that could kibosh his coalition and knock him out of office.

    This is one of them. Dancing with dogma on Net Zero, ending up advocating we eat mung beans and algae forevermore, whilst never flying abroad again and shiver in our cold homes, is another.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    alex_ said:

    UK and France agree deal to tackle rise in Channel crossings

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57909188

    These are vulnerable, desperate, human beings fleeing violence and persecution.

    We need to agree with France a means of processing and approving their requests in France, not bloody Rwanda, and bringing them to the UK to start their new life.
    Or how about france grants them asylum and they can start a new life
    If they wish to come here for whatever reason. Family, diaspora already here, unaccompanied child, we should let them. I can’t see why we wouldn’t
    How many syrian refugees were there...7 million or so? Are you seriously arguing we should take them all if they want to come? And the next year another 5 million from some other war torn shit hole? How many is your limit. Because this is exactly what you are arguing for with your "If people want to come we should let them" and fuck the rest of us as our services get overwhelmed and our standard of living drops
    My problem with "safe and legal routes" is exactly this.

    What it means is making it even easier to get here, and you could easily increase the numbers ten or twenty fold if we did that.

    We'd end up with overburdened social services and impromptu camps/ shanty towns outside almost every population centre of significance in the south-east.
    Much as I dislike Cameron I will admit he had the right idea take a quota from the refugee camps
    It is absolutely the right way to do it.

    We're not dicks, but the way to become a refugee in the UK is by applying properly near to your home country, and not by trekking halfway across the world.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    They can push but they arent in power and pushing will ensure they never are. How many refugees do you call a halt at? That is a serious question. Then answer the question "how do I explain to people they are going to get worse services and pay more tax because we brought in x million refugees. You wonder why people have contempt for labour....we all still remember "Only 13000 will migrants maximum will come from accession countries". Well they were about 100 times out then so whatever figure you give everyone is going to multiply by 100
    When answering think of this there are 82.4 million displaced persons currently
    source https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/06/unhcr-how-many-refugees/
    If we as a country say anyone who wants to come is welcome do you think most will say a) thanks but I like my refugee camp. or b) Yes please

  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Interesting. Is there a limit to the numbers we should take? 10,000? 100,000? 10 million?
    We should take our fair share. Obviously we cannot take 10 million but 80 - 100K is feasible.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 2,971
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Are the same people who say as an island we should have kept Covid out the same ones saying we should let all migrants in?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,147
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Have you considered how a proud maritime nation like France is unable to spot groups of people massed on the beaches at night fall by human traffickers, leaving the coastline unaccosted? Have you wondered what might happen to the business fortunes of those human traffickers if you induced demand in their services? Macron’s immorality disgusts me for his tacit approval of trafficking, plenty will be drowning as a result just so he doesn’t have to work harder to control his land borders or integrate immigrants.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    But we can't let people drown (as I well know from he outrage at a tiny joke on this theme!)

    We really can't

    What we can do is pick them up and take them to another faraway country, agreeable to this, a country that is safe but not particularly nice. Rwanda? It will cost us a lot of money at first, but save us bigtime in the end, as migrants realise there is no point going to the UK

    Until we do that - ie what the Aussies did - they will come
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Sorry, but are you fecking radge?

    Wave goodbye to the Red Wall forever.
    Sorry but SKS and his team need to do what is right and if that means losing the red wall to gain other seats so be it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Have you considered how a proud maritime nation like France is unable to spot groups of people massed on the beaches at night fall by human traffickers, leaving the coastline unaccosted? Have you wondered what might happen to the business fortunes of those human traffickers if you induced demand in their services? Macron’s immorality disgusts me for his tacit approval of trafficking, plenty will be drowning as a result just so he doesn’t have to work harder to control his land borders or integrate immigrants.
    He does it because it is popular with French voters.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
    Then they can get asylum in France or any number of safe EU countries they pass through before trying to get here. It's time to close the border properly. What they want is of little relevance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 86,002
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    If India has truly suffered 5 million dead, with more to come - relentlessly, it comes - then it looks like Covid will probably kill 25-30 million humans in its first two or three years, maybe a lot more

    That makes it likely the third worst pandemic in history, in sheer numbers, behind only the Flu of 1918 and the Black Death

    We are, unfortunately, living through interesting times

    Yes but in 1918 they had just come off millions of dead in WW1 too and the Black Death was the same time as the Hundred Years War
    It is indeed reassuring to know that the Black Death was, in fact, statistically worse than what we are experiencing now
    Black Death led to such overwhelming mortality that even now, you can visit home counties villages and surmise why that field and that field next to the old church were never built on. In some cases the village lies a couple of miles from the ancient church, as the inhabitants scrambled to move away from the pits. And this is largely from the less severe 17th century plague, not the almost completely devastating plague of the 14th century. I often sit in my very old house and wonder what I’d hear if the walls could talk.
    The Great Plague of 1665-66 was shortly after the English civil war of course
    Or the War of the Three Kingdoms as the less Anglo-centric Britons call them.
    The war was primarily the King and then his son v the English Parliament and Cromwell.

    The Scots changed sides, first supporting Parliament against King Charles 1st, then Prince Charles v Cromwell.

    Ireland was primarily Catholics ultimately supportive of the King against Protestant settlers Cromwell ultimately invaded to support
    FPT - but HYUFD, you really are Anglocentric. It was the Scots who began, and who ended, the Wars of the Covenant. From 1639 to 1746. The Scots didn't change sides. The Stuarts did.
    The Bishops Wars ended 2 years before the English civil war began.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 42,918
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    So, you don't want Labour re-elected then?
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    We take,a fraction compared to other nations, it’s time we did our bit after all we started or helped fuel many of the conflicts that saw these people forces to leave their home nations where they all would rather be.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
    How many is the limit? Until you answer that question your virtue-signalling bleats are valueless

    On the other hand, do make this Labour policy - as it guarantees a Corbyn-style defeat next time around, only worse
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
    They are absolutely economic migrants. They fled war. They are in a safe country. Further movement is economic based not safety based
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,147
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
    Refugees escaping from France… you’ll have to explain that one.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Sorry, but are you fecking radge?

    Wave goodbye to the Red Wall forever.
    Sorry but SKS and his team need to do what is right and if that means losing the red wall to gain other seats so be it.
    It won't gain him other seats because most of the southern voters dont want them either
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
    How many is the limit? Until you answer that question your virtue-signalling bleats are valueless

    On the other hand, do make this Labour policy - as it guarantees a Corbyn-style defeat next time around, only worse
    I’ve already said what I think is a feasible number downthread. 80-100K a year.
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 20
    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Thoughts among the Powellite masses (who include my deeply unpleasant racist neighbour to whom I have stopped talking) may well run like this: "We sent the politicians a message by voting UKIP. We tried again by voting for Brexit. We climbed over the Red Wall and voted Tory. But those migrant boats, oh, those migrant boats! Australia! Australia!"
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    But we can't let people drown (as I well know from he outrage at a tiny joke on this theme!)

    We really can't

    What we can do is pick them up and take them to another faraway country, agreeable to this, a country that is safe but not particularly nice. Rwanda? It will cost us a lot of money at first, but save us bigtime in the end, as migrants realise there is no point going to the UK

    Until we do that - ie what the Aussies did - they will come
    I imagine Algeria or Morocco would happily take our money and keep them until they get bored of waiting for a day that they know will never arrive. The Greeks and French push them out to sea regularly and literally no one cares. I'm getting closer to that position all the time.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 42,918
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    I don't like to be the bringer of bad news but that's ultimately where we'll end up if a solution is not found.

    People won't accept legal niceities as an excuse for doing nothing - they'll vote for those who'll drive a cart and horses through them.
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
    They are absolutely economic migrants. They fled war. They are in a safe country. Further movement is economic based not safety based
    Yet many are accepted as genuine and of those rejected a large proportion have the rejections overturned.
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
    Refugees escaping from France… you’ll have to explain that one.
    I have already said they are not,obliged to apply in the First Nation that arrive in. France is hostile to refugees.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    edited July 20
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Interesting. Is there a limit to the numbers we should take? 10,000? 100,000? 10 million?
    We should take our fair share. Obviously we cannot take 10 million but 80 - 100K is feasible.
    100,000

    We should take 100,000

    You are literally saying 100,000 illegal migrants making insanely dangerous crossings should be prioritised over the other hundreds of thousands of migrants who want to come here, but who do so legally and safely (which takes years). You want to reward human trafficking, you want to reward evil

    And besides, once we reach the 100,000, what you gonna do then? Shoot the next boats? Or let the next boats in as well, because your enormous heart is bleeding?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,147
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Have you considered how a proud maritime nation like France is unable to spot groups of people massed on the beaches at night fall by human traffickers, leaving the coastline unaccosted? Have you wondered what might happen to the business fortunes of those human traffickers if you induced demand in their services? Macron’s immorality disgusts me for his tacit approval of trafficking, plenty will be drowning as a result just so he doesn’t have to work harder to control his land borders or integrate immigrants.
    He does it because it is popular with French voters.
    He looks the other way. No doubt the coast guard and port authorities are directly on the take from the trafficking gangs, and quite possible regional politicians too. Would be great to see a UK organised crime investigation issue international arrest warrants for these people.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,035
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    We take,a fraction compared to other nations, it’s time we did our bit after all we started or helped fuel many of the conflicts that saw these people forces to leave their home nations where they all would rather be.
    Noone likes to see anyone jumping any sort of queue. And those that rock up to Dover in their dinghies are err.. queue jumpers.
    Taking directly from refugee camps would be have the crucial element that it would mean we could take our fair share of asylum seekers without people jumping any sort of queue.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
    They are absolutely economic migrants. They fled war. They are in a safe country. Further movement is economic based not safety based
    Yet many are accepted as genuine and of those rejected a large proportion have the rejections overturned.
    Thats because we have shit courts with lefty judges. That can be changed and will be if they keep doing it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 42,918
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Voters who are most appalled by that will obviously stick with Boris over Labour or the LDs, so unless Farage returns it will not be a major issue.

    There is only so much they can do anyway without Macron's help in keeping them in France otherwise all they can do is pick them up where they can
    I assume that Macron is the one supplying them with boats.
    Macron's focus is obviously getting as many out of France as possible to keep his 2017 vote from going to Le Pen
    Actually, it's in Macron's interests to help the British.

    If crossing the channel was utterly futile then far fewer migrants, if any, would congregate in the Pas De Calais area.

    There'd be no point.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 86,002

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    So, you don't want Labour re-elected then?
    He does but only in Islington and Hampstead and Cambridge etc where the decent Labour voters live, he would rather lose but with dignity than have to appeal to anti migration sensibilities.

    It is a view if not a very practical one
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Interesting. Is there a limit to the numbers we should take? 10,000? 100,000? 10 million?
    We should take our fair share. Obviously we cannot take 10 million but 80 - 100K is feasible.
    100,000

    We should take 100,000

    You are literally saying 100,000 illegal migrants making insanely dangerous crossings should be prioritised over the other hundreds of thousands of migrants who want to come here, but who do so legally and safely (which takes years). You want to reward human trafficking, you want to reward evil

    And besides, once we reach the 100,000, what you gonna do then? Shoot the next boats? Or let them next boats in as well, because your enormous heart is bleeding?
    What people also arent mentioning is that if the climate change lobby are right within 40 years there will be a billion+ climate change refugees. I suspect at those numbers westerners will lose there sensibilities and fund the military to keep them out.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 6,670
    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Thoughts among the Powellite masses (who include my unpleasant neighbour to whom I have stopped talking) may well run like this: "We sent the politicians a message by voting UKIP. We tried again by voting for Brexit. We climbed over the Red Wall and voted Tory. But those migrant boats, oh, those migrant boats! Australia! Australia!"
    I thought Brexit was going to stop literally millions of immigrants from the EU. If it has, then why are the Leavers now fuming about a few dozen illegals - small beer surely? If it hasn't, then does that mean the great plank of Brexit was a fib?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    We take,a fraction compared to other nations, it’s time we did our bit after all we started or helped fuel many of the conflicts that saw these people forces to leave their home nations where they all would rather be.
    No thanks. Time to shut up shop. It's not our problem. If they want to come here by legal means, more than happy for then to apply and meet whatever criteria we have for skilled or unskilled migration. Otherwise it's a hard no. It's the same as international aid, all we're doing is enabling dictators.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 14,305
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Sorry, but are you fecking radge?

    Wave goodbye to the Red Wall forever.
    Sorry but SKS and his team need to do what is right and if that means losing the red wall to gain other seats so be it.
    Why is it right to allow a bunch of young, fit blokes who have blagged their way across Europe to come and live here?

    Those in genuine need are languishing in camps near to the conflict zones.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 20,495
    edited July 20
    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Asia is quite concerning now


    Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, all heading into big new waves. Indonesia reporting 1,200 dead today. Feck


    Meanwhile the Guardian reports that the real death toll in India is 4 MILLION - ie ten times the official death toll, which confirms the most appalling estimates, which were sometimes dismissed as scare-mongering

    If India alone has actually suffered 4 million dead so far, then what is the true global total? 15 million? 20 million? And how high might it go?

    Covid is already one of the worst pandemics in all human history

    The Telegraph says up to 5 million.
    Bloody hell

    I recall reading the claim, weeks back, that the Indian death toll was understated "ten to fifteen times" judging by the amount of cremations taking place compared with normality

    Something in me rebelled against this, and pigeon holed it as "alarmism"

    Now it seems it is true. Grim

    I wonder if we will ever know the true death toll in China. It beggars belief that 1.4 billion Indians can suffer 5 million dead, with more to come, and neighbouring China, with a similarly vast population, has just.... 4,600 dead?

    A thousand times fewer. Really? How?
    It’s the great mystery of our age how covid didn’t ravage every corner of China, given the millions of people that travelled from or passed through Wuhan the week before their Chinese New Year lockdown.

    No one serious seems to want to talk about it because it raises quite uncomfortable possibilities. Better to just ignore it.
    Tish tish. They're just REALLY good at stapling people inside houses. Don't worry yourself about this. Next question
    You see the thing is, this is what they did in Wuhan after the horse had long since bolted. But I haven’t heard of them doing it anywhere else. It’s hard to comprehend the sheer mass of humanity that moves in Chinese golden week unless you’ve seen it.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090007/china-confirmed-and-suspected-wuhan-coronavirus-cases-region/

    Now sure we can look at these stats and note the implausibility of them. But it is very interesting how we never saw visible signs of stress anywhere else outside of Wuhan itself. The Communist Party in inland China is not known for its competence.

    There is something decidedly odd about this story that does not hang together. My personal pet theory is that sarscov2 ravaged through most of east Asia in 2019 under the radar but perhaps with a less severe strain. And this had the effect of taking out the vulnerable before we even realised there was a pandemic, and allowed the build up of background immunity without anyone realising. Take a look at the 2019 mortality stats in Japan and Singapore, two countries with high rates of travel from China and reliable stats. You’ll see why I lean this way. Also note the evidence of infections in Europe as early as October 2019.

    Doubtless someone will have the evidence to prove why this is wrong. Fair enough if so. But what is the answer then?
    1. They still have some pretty severe restrictons across China, plus lots of travel quarantining
    2. They do still have local flare ups
    3. And they do sometimes go full lockdown at a City level
    4. Local governors in China know that they need to tell the world they are Covid free, whatever thereality is
    I don't think there were major flare ups outside Wuhan. When things get really out of control, there is no hiding it.

    They may struggle with Delta though. Other Asian countries have.
    When I said “millions” travelled from or through Wuhan the week before Chinese New Year, I wasn’t being hyperbolic of course. These were the communist party’s own figures before being taken offline shortly after publication by China Railways. Those trains were the perfect super spreading event, given by that point it’s clear there was aerosolised transmission. Peculiar…
    China was lockdown.

    I think people struggle to understand what that means because they think what the UK went through was "lockdown".

    Look at the pollution maps for China and Wuhan
    https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/146362/airborne-nitrogen-dioxide-plummets-over-china






    Lockdown China style doesn't mean you can take your dog out for a walk as many times as you want. It means step outside and you get shot. The whole country was locked in side for weeks upon weeks.

    It took until the end of May for NO2 levels to "recover" in China.
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Interesting. Is there a limit to the numbers we should take? 10,000? 100,000? 10 million?
    We should take our fair share. Obviously we cannot take 10 million but 80 - 100K is feasible.
    100,000

    We should take 100,000

    You are literally saying 100,000 illegal migrants making insanely dangerous crossings should be prioritised over the other hundreds of thousands of migrants who want to come here, but who do so legally and safely (which takes years). You want to reward human trafficking, you want to reward evil

    And besides, once we reach the 100,000, what you gonna do then? Shoot the next boats? Or let them next boats in as well, because your enormous heart is bleeding?
    We should have a co ordinated approach with the EU and the rest of the western world and agree quotas and take the full quota amount.

    By adopting my suggestion, of setting up processing centres in France to review and approve/reject applications it should remove the illegal,element.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,347
    edited July 20
    On a GB basis Survation's poll would show Con 40% Lab 36% LD 11%. On a UNS basis, it implies 41 Labour gains from the Tories who would also lose 4 seats to LDs. Some losses to SNP would also be likely taking the Tories back to circa 2017 levels.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 86,002
    edited July 20

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Voters who are most appalled by that will obviously stick with Boris over Labour or the LDs, so unless Farage returns it will not be a major issue.

    There is only so much they can do anyway without Macron's help in keeping them in France otherwise all they can do is pick them up where they can
    I assume that Macron is the one supplying them with boats.
    Macron's focus is obviously getting as many out of France as possible to keep his 2017 vote from going to Le Pen
    Actually, it's in Macron's interests to help the British.

    If crossing the channel was utterly futile then far fewer migrants, if any, would congregate in the Pas De Calais area.

    There'd be no point.
    To do that he would have to impose mass border guards at the channel beaches and ports and have an even bigger refugee camp in northern France.

    Even if France is not the UK it is not Rwanda or Somalia either
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Why won't you address the point that France is a safe country and that therefore there's no reason for migrants to risk their lives crossing the channel?
    They are not obliged to apply to stay in France. They want to come here. We should give them safe passage as long as they are genuine and most are.
    Asylum is about need, not want. Economic migration is about want, not need. If they want to migrate here for economic reasons then they can do so legally. Push the boats back out and send them to Algeria or Morocco etc...
    These are not economic migrants. Surely we should, as a nation, be proud they want to come here as they see us as safe, warm and welcoming to,vulnerable people.
    They are absolutely economic migrants. They fled war. They are in a safe country. Further movement is economic based not safety based
    Yet many are accepted as genuine and of those rejected a large proportion have the rejections overturned.
    Thats because we have shit courts with lefty judges. That can be changed and will be if they keep doing it.
    Be very careful about politicising the judiciary. You may like it when you agree with their decisions but when you don’t.....
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,147
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Interesting. Is there a limit to the numbers we should take? 10,000? 100,000? 10 million?
    We should take our fair share. Obviously we cannot take 10 million but 80 - 100K is feasible.
    100,000

    We should take 100,000

    You are literally saying 100,000 illegal migrants making insanely dangerous crossings should be prioritised over the other hundreds of thousands of migrants who want to come here, but who do so legally and safely (which takes years). You want to reward human trafficking, you want to reward evil

    And besides, once we reach the 100,000, what you gonna do then? Shoot the next boats? Or let them next boats in as well, because your enormous heart is bleeding?
    What people also arent mentioning is that if the climate change lobby are right within 40 years there will be a billion+ climate change refugees. I suspect at those numbers westerners will lose there sensibilities and fund the military to keep them out.
    Yes it’s really curious to me how short sighted a lot of right leaning commentators are on climate change. If you wish to “conserve” society as far as possible as it is, climate change is a total cluster.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Interesting. Is there a limit to the numbers we should take? 10,000? 100,000? 10 million?
    We should take our fair share. Obviously we cannot take 10 million but 80 - 100K is feasible.
    100,000

    We should take 100,000

    You are literally saying 100,000 illegal migrants making insanely dangerous crossings should be prioritised over the other hundreds of thousands of migrants who want to come here, but who do so legally and safely (which takes years). You want to reward human trafficking, you want to reward evil

    And besides, once we reach the 100,000, what you gonna do then? Shoot the next boats? Or let them next boats in as well, because your enormous heart is bleeding?
    We should have a co ordinated approach with the EU and the rest of the western world and agree quotas and take the full quota amount.

    By adopting my suggestion, of setting up processing centres in France to review and approve/reject applications it should remove the illegal,element.
    Why should we process them in france we should take none of those but those in refugee camps beside the country they fled. What is special about the ones in france apart from they are trying to enter illegaly
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 14,305
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    We take,a fraction compared to other nations, it’s time we did our bit after all we started or helped fuel many of the conflicts that saw these people forces to leave their home nations where they all would rather be.
    "where they all would rather be"

    Now I know that you are just trolling us. Well done, it was working nicely.
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Sorry, but are you fecking radge?

    Wave goodbye to the Red Wall forever.
    Sorry but SKS and his team need to do what is right and if that means losing the red wall to gain other seats so be it.
    Why is it right to allow a bunch of young, fit blokes who have blagged their way across Europe to come and live here?

    Those in genuine need are languishing in camps near to the conflict zones.

    They are men, women and children. Many are unaccompanied children. It is right because they are desperate people,fleeing torture, wars, bigotry, prejudice and persecution. Look where they come from. Places like Somalia, Iran, Eritrea, Syria, S Sudan. They don’t tend to come from stable nations. God bless them all.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Interesting. Is there a limit to the numbers we should take? 10,000? 100,000? 10 million?
    We should take our fair share. Obviously we cannot take 10 million but 80 - 100K is feasible.
    100,000

    We should take 100,000

    You are literally saying 100,000 illegal migrants making insanely dangerous crossings should be prioritised over the other hundreds of thousands of migrants who want to come here, but who do so legally and safely (which takes years). You want to reward human trafficking, you want to reward evil

    And besides, once we reach the 100,000, what you gonna do then? Shoot the next boats? Or let them next boats in as well, because your enormous heart is bleeding?
    We should have a co ordinated approach with the EU and the rest of the western world and agree quotas and take the full quota amount.

    By adopting my suggestion, of setting up processing centres in France to review and approve/reject applications it should remove the illegal,element.
    Not our problem. Let them rot in Calais or go back and apply for asylum from there. As soon as they left the unsafe country the need went away. Everything after that was want which makes them an economic migrant and we have legal routes of migration for anyone who wants to come and work and settle in the UK.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050

    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Thoughts among the Powellite masses (who include my unpleasant neighbour to whom I have stopped talking) may well run like this: "We sent the politicians a message by voting UKIP. We tried again by voting for Brexit. We climbed over the Red Wall and voted Tory. But those migrant boats, oh, those migrant boats! Australia! Australia!"
    I thought Brexit was going to stop literally millions of immigrants from the EU. If it has, then why are the Leavers now fuming about a few dozen illegals - small beer surely? If it hasn't, then does that mean the great plank of Brexit was a fib?
    It's not a few dozen. It was at least 450 today, in one day, and the charts for 2021 are through the roof, it could be 20,000 in one year - at a time of plague, FFS, when we are meant to have the most secure border imaginable

    Moreover, as Max says there are hundreds of millions of migrants trying to move worldwide, with more to come. The best thing we can do for them, and us, and the world, is make sure all movement is approved, legal, accepted by British voters, otherwise we are cueing up the perfect conditions for a truly far right UK government - which is what you'd get if you just abandoned border control
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    We take,a fraction compared to other nations, it’s time we did our bit after all we started or helped fuel many of the conflicts that saw these people forces to leave their home nations where they all would rather be.
    "where they all would rather be"

    Now I know that you are just trolling us. Well done, it was working nicely.
    I am bemused by how many lefties dont get it....we pay taxes to you, we expect you to put us first and if there is money left over then by all means help others further afield
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 33,071
    moonshine said:

    FPT
    @Charles Sounds like a life well lived

    Yes. He then spent 50 years running the family business
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 20,868

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    I said the other day there were emerging threats to Boris's right flank, that could kibosh his coalition and knock him out of office.

    This is one of them. Dancing with dogma on Net Zero, ending up advocating we eat mung beans and algae forevermore, whilst never flying abroad again and shiver in our cold homes, is another.
    Especially as Boris would have no intention of doing any of those things himself.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 29,865
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    Bloody hell Max you obviously hung one on with your father!
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    We take,a fraction compared to other nations, it’s time we did our bit after all we started or helped fuel many of the conflicts that saw these people forces to leave their home nations where they all would rather be.
    "where they all would rather be"

    Now I know that you are just trolling us. Well done, it was working nicely.
    Sorry, but that was the findings of refugee action and other refugee support groups,who interview these people. People who make dangerous journeys which many will not complete. It’s a hazardous journey.

    If you think defending the rights of the most vulnerable and desperate is trolling then please ignore my posts. We have nothing more to,say.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 4,012
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Closer with Survation tonight

    Tories 39%
    Labour 35%
    LDs 11%

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1417559489700630541?s=20

    Interesting labour and lib dems managing better numbers. Normally it is one or the other.
    Electoral Calculus gives a hung parliament on those numbers from Survation with Tories 310, Labour 247, SNP 55, LDs 15.

    So Starmer could be PM with SNP, LD and Green and PC support, the Tories would certainly need the DUP to have a chance of staying in office.

    IDS, Raab, Villiers and Steve Baker would lose their seats

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=39&LAB=35&LIB=11&Reform=3&Green=5&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=23&SCOTLAB=19.6&SCOTLIB=6&SCOTReform=0.4&SCOTGreen=2.1&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=47.7&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
    Where are you getting these figures from?

    Scotnat 47.7%
    Scotcon 23%
    Scotlab 19.6%
    Scotlib 6%
    Scotgreen 2.1%
    Scotreform 0.4%
    Which would still see a hung parliament on the UK Survation numbers and PM Starmer propped up by the SNP and LDs, the SDLP, PC, Alliance and Greens despite another Tory majority in England.

    The DUP would not support the Tories again unless they removed the Irish Sea border
    Err… yes. Thanks. Hate to be a pain, but I repeat my question:

    Where are you getting these figures from?

    Scotnat 47.7%
    Scotcon 23%
    Scotlab 19.6%
    Scotlib 6%
    Scotgreen 2.1%
    Scotreform 0.4%
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    We take,a fraction compared to other nations, it’s time we did our bit after all we started or helped fuel many of the conflicts that saw these people forces to leave their home nations where they all would rather be.
    "where they all would rather be"

    Now I know that you are just trolling us. Well done, it was working nicely.
    Sorry, but that was the findings of refugee action and other refugee support groups,who interview these people. People who make dangerous journeys which many will not complete. It’s a hazardous journey.

    If you think defending the rights of the most vulnerable and desperate is trolling then please ignore my posts. We have nothing more to,say.
    Groups who are disposed to believe any old bullshit that they are told and take it at face value
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 20,868
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Sorry, but are you fecking radge?

    Wave goodbye to the Red Wall forever.
    Sorry but SKS and his team need to do what is right and if that means losing the red wall to gain other seats so be it.
    Why is it right to allow a bunch of young, fit blokes who have blagged their way across Europe to come and live here?

    Those in genuine need are languishing in camps near to the conflict zones.

    They are men, women and children. Many are unaccompanied children. It is right because they are desperate people,fleeing torture, wars, bigotry, prejudice and persecution. Look where they come from. Places like Somalia, Iran, Eritrea, Syria, S Sudan. They don’t tend to come from stable nations. God bless them all.
    They're more likely to need Allah's blessing from that set of countries.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 448
    Even if you could sort out social care in terms of more money who exactly is going to be doing the caring . Unless you increase foreign workers which this cesspit government won’t do where are these carers going to come from .
  • Polling parity soon!
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    nico679 said:

    Even if you could sort out social care in terms of more money who exactly is going to be doing the caring . Unless you increase foreign workers which this cesspit government won’t do where are these carers going to come from .

    As pay rises more people will be willing to do it. Before you parrot the bullcrap about english people won't do it remember 83% of people doing it are already english. What your lot always means is that english people won't do it for minimum wage
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 13,870
    edited July 20
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 20,868
    edited July 20

    Polling parity soon!

    Its only three months since you said the Conservative lead was over.

    Always take them with care and remember they can break your heart.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,156
    Gosh late with the news...still not going to be a labour government on that poll thankfully and to be clear dont want a tory one either but it is the lesser of two madnesses
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    The UK is far to weak. We need to do what the European countries are doing. Fuck middle class sensibilities, push them back out to sea like French and Greeks and house the ones that do make it in Algeria until they are processed. No right to enter the UK until asylum is granted. The UK needs to become a fortress island.
    Fortunately our courts wouldn’t allow it and someone like the good law project would soon stop it.
    Change the law, legislate, do whatever it takes. If it means burning the HRA then so be it. Enough is enough.
    We take,a fraction compared to other nations, it’s time we did our bit after all we started or helped fuel many of the conflicts that saw these people forces to leave their home nations where they all would rather be.
    "where they all would rather be"

    Now I know that you are just trolling us. Well done, it was working nicely.
    Sorry, but that was the findings of refugee action and other refugee support groups,who interview these people. People who make dangerous journeys which many will not complete. It’s a hazardous journey.

    If you think defending the rights of the most vulnerable and desperate is trolling then please ignore my posts. We have nothing more to,say.
    Groups who are disposed to believe any old bullshit that they are told and take it at face value
    These are not gullible,fools. They are groups who deal with these people day in day out, week in week out, so know them and know they are telling the truth.

    Here is a great page from a wonderful local group doing its bit.

    https://www.wers.org.uk/facts-about-refugees
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 6,739
    Sleazy broken Tories on the slide

    Hartlepool = peak Johnson
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Sorry, but are you fecking radge?

    Wave goodbye to the Red Wall forever.
    Sorry but SKS and his team need to do what is right and if that means losing the red wall to gain other seats so be it.
    Why is it right to allow a bunch of young, fit blokes who have blagged their way across Europe to come and live here?

    Those in genuine need are languishing in camps near to the conflict zones.

    They are men, women and children. Many are unaccompanied children. It is right because they are desperate people,fleeing torture, wars, bigotry, prejudice and persecution. Look where they come from. Places like Somalia, Iran, Eritrea, Syria, S Sudan. They don’t tend to come from stable nations. God bless them all.
    They're more likely to need Allah's blessing from that set of countries.
    Why is that an issue worthy of comment ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 86,002

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Closer with Survation tonight

    Tories 39%
    Labour 35%
    LDs 11%

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1417559489700630541?s=20

    Interesting labour and lib dems managing better numbers. Normally it is one or the other.
    Electoral Calculus gives a hung parliament on those numbers from Survation with Tories 310, Labour 247, SNP 55, LDs 15.

    So Starmer could be PM with SNP, LD and Green and PC support, the Tories would certainly need the DUP to have a chance of staying in office.

    IDS, Raab, Villiers and Steve Baker would lose their seats

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=39&LAB=35&LIB=11&Reform=3&Green=5&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=23&SCOTLAB=19.6&SCOTLIB=6&SCOTReform=0.4&SCOTGreen=2.1&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=47.7&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
    Where are you getting these figures from?

    Scotnat 47.7%
    Scotcon 23%
    Scotlab 19.6%
    Scotlib 6%
    Scotgreen 2.1%
    Scotreform 0.4%
    Which would still see a hung parliament on the UK Survation numbers and PM Starmer propped up by the SNP and LDs, the SDLP, PC, Alliance and Greens despite another Tory majority in England.

    The DUP would not support the Tories again unless they removed the Irish Sea border
    Err… yes. Thanks. Hate to be a pain, but I repeat my question:

    Where are you getting these figures from?

    Scotnat 47.7%
    Scotcon 23%
    Scotlab 19.6%
    Scotlib 6%
    Scotgreen 2.1%
    Scotreform 0.4%
    Scottish figures are largely irrelevant to the UK total unless the SCons take the lead as the SNP will prop up Labour anyway, so your Scottish subsample demand is also largely irrelevant.

    However the Scottish figures are SNP 39%, Tories 22%, Labour 19%, Greens 5%, LDs 4%

    https://www.survation.com/survation-19-july-2021-uk-politics-survey/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The images of 450 migrants simply beaching in Kent, in one single day, and then scattering are absolutely appalling for the Tories

    TAKE BACK CONTROL?!

    If they don't get a grip on this the government is fucked

    Labour needs to make the most of this and push to welcome these people to the UK and help them. Their moral cowardice in not doing so shames left wing politics
    Interesting. Is there a limit to the numbers we should take? 10,000? 100,000? 10 million?
    We should take our fair share. Obviously we cannot take 10 million but 80 - 100K is feasible.
    100,000

    We should take 100,000

    You are literally saying 100,000 illegal migrants making insanely dangerous crossings should be prioritised over the other hundreds of thousands of migrants who want to come here, but who do so legally and safely (which takes years). You want to reward human trafficking, you want to reward evil

    And besides, once we reach the 100,000, what you gonna do then? Shoot the next boats? Or let them next boats in as well, because your enormous heart is bleeding?
    We should have a co ordinated approach with the EU and the rest of the western world and agree quotas and take the full quota amount.

    By adopting my suggestion, of setting up processing centres in France to review and approve/reject applications it should remove the illegal,element.
    Not our problem. Let them rot in Calais or go back and apply for asylum from there. As soon as they left the unsafe country the need went away. Everything after that was want which makes them an economic migrant and we have legal routes of migration for anyone who wants to come and work and settle in the UK.
    There is actually a Darwinian argument that agrees with Taz. Tho I suspect he won't like it


    If you want to take immigrants, take the youngest, toughest, smartest, richest - take the best, but make them go through some kind of awful Hunger Games-esque trial, to see who the fittest are - like, say, illegally crossing half of Africa, sorting out a trafficker, then surviving a horrible Channel crossing in a dinghy

    If they make it, let them in, because you have then successfully selected for the fittest, most enterprising migrants, who will prosper in the UK

    Perhaps we should close down all legal routes of migration, and only allow crossings of the Channel. They could be televised, in front of live audiences, as people cheer on their favourites

    FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT, THIS IS SATIRE, I DO NOT THINK THIS IS A GOOD, KIND OR WISE THING. But it is the weird Ayn Randy upshot of Taz's Let Them Come philosophy
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