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BBC Sports Personality of the Year – Doubting Dina Asher Smith – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2021
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions. And wealth. On which point -

    Housing. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate wealth. The cheap ones up North don't.
    If you want to try and be rich and high status then move South, if you are happy with an average lifestyle and want to be able to be sure you can buy your own home on even an average income then move North
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    Gnud said:

    Those predicting peak next week....

    Coronavirus cases will stay high for MONTHS after passing 100,000 in two weeks' time and a new lockdown will be needed by September,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797637/UK-coronavirus-cases-stay-high-MONTHS-autumn-say-SAGE.html

    Jeremy Hunt as next PM looks value at 15.

    Perhaps the succession will go Eton-Charterhouse rather than Eton-Winchester to Rishi as so many expect.
    Yes, if Johnson falls because of "Freedom Day" incompetence then Hunt is well positioned. Not least because Johnson will take down most of his cabinet with him.
    A plausible take but about the most depressing thing I’ve heard in ages. Hunt with his “schools open in September… hard choices” has already ruined my weekend. They need to decide now. Do they care if kids catch covid? If so then vaccinate over the summer. If not, then stop testing testing them all together.
    There are some diseases that children absolutely need vaccinating against.

    Covid, surely, is not one of them.
    We vaccinate children against rubella, not to protect them but rather to protect vulnerable adults, mumps too to an extent, pregnant women and fertile men respectively. So there is precedent.
    And the children also benefit when they are older, presumably?

    Well, the hope is that the children live to grow up to be adult* - so yes....

    *I always liked PJ O'Rourke's comment on the early mines acts - "This created a great deal of unemployment among 12 year old boys. But it gave them the freedom to pursue other goals. Such as living to be 13."
    Also losing the very high risk of scrotal cancer in adulthood, which makes a nice comparison with covid.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,580
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's been quite the week in the culture wars. One Tory insider told @Alain_Tolhurst No.10 was "obsessed" with red wall voters, but feared they had created a caricature and completely misjudged the national mood.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/wedged-in-how-the-culture-war-backfired-on-the-tories

    Yes, it seems that the stereotyping of the Red Wall as neanderthal bigots is at least as much a problem for the Tories as for elements of Labour.
    Not sure if it is 'at least as much' a problem for them, but it's certainly true the extent of the Red Wall has morphed in peoples' minds a bit, and it's homogenity of thought exaggerated. I think that cowardly (for not giving a name) insider is probably correct, as 'how will it play in the Red Wall?' seems to be the first and only question a lot of the time.

    As rottenborough notes it opens up opportunities particularly for the LDs, as we have seen. Sure, the Tory bedrock is probably solid enough for another election, but they are overdoing the love bombing of the Red Wall compared to elsewhere.
    The interesting thing is how little has actually been done for the Red Wall so far.

    Town funds and a bit of putative infrastructure.

    Anything else in serious amounts?
    Warm words/hot air.
    There's been a hurricane force of that.
    Since a great deal of the 'levelling up' will be infrastructure, it will take time. If they're serious about it, then it's a project for two decades or more.

    But some is being done: on the railways alone, you have the Ashington line which may open in 2024, and although it is not the north, the Okehampton line in rural Devon has been totally relaid and should open by the end of the year. It should be said that the latter is the easiest of easy reopenings: private services were running until recently.
    Mmm. Yes. The Ashington Line has been banged on about since the 90's. Planning has been since the early 10's. Under Labour, then Tory minority Council control. It's isn't really a Boris levelling up policy. They've just given it some funding.
    We are hamstrung here by being unable to reach any other part of the NE by rail without going through Newcastle.
    Well, yes. It has been talked about for years - and so have Okehampton and others. But it's happening under them, whereas it wasn't before. The reason? The funding.

    As an aside, the odd thing is that the railways seem to do quite well for investment under Conservative governments when compared to Labour. Thatcher's governments electrified many routes, whilst Brown and Blair's governments only electrified a few miles between Crewe and Kidsgrove. Under the coalition and Conservative governments, we've had GWML, EGIP, part of the MML, and work just started on the Trans-Pennine route. I've probably missed some.

    If you're interested in the good of the railways, vote Conservative. ;)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Leon said:

    And yet you get the definite sense he is being truthful and he will spend the next year farming, as before

    This is probably the greatest achievement of the show, and also why it works: Clarkson appears sincere most of the time, indeed passionately so

    The worst bits of Top Gear and TGT were the most confected, insincere scenes (and the tedious interviews with celebrities, which he obviously disliked doing). Give him something he likes doing and really tries to do well, and he is naturally funny and watchable - and informative

    Like others here, I learned more about modern farming in 8 hours than I have done in the last 30 years, while being richly entertained

    Absolutely.

    And of course he has booked 2 more seasons so he has to do at least some farmering
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's been quite the week in the culture wars. One Tory insider told @Alain_Tolhurst No.10 was "obsessed" with red wall voters, but feared they had created a caricature and completely misjudged the national mood.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/wedged-in-how-the-culture-war-backfired-on-the-tories

    Yes, it seems that the stereotyping of the Red Wall as neanderthal bigots is at least as much a problem for the Tories as for elements of Labour.
    Not sure if it is 'at least as much' a problem for them, but it's certainly true the extent of the Red Wall has morphed in peoples' minds a bit, and it's homogenity of thought exaggerated. I think that cowardly (for not giving a name) insider is probably correct, as 'how will it play in the Red Wall?' seems to be the first and only question a lot of the time.

    As rottenborough notes it opens up opportunities particularly for the LDs, as we have seen. Sure, the Tory bedrock is probably solid enough for another election, but they are overdoing the love bombing of the Red Wall compared to elsewhere.
    The interesting thing is how little has actually been done for the Red Wall so far.

    Town funds and a bit of putative infrastructure.

    Anything else in serious amounts?
    Warm words/hot air.
    There's been a hurricane force of that.
    Since a great deal of the 'levelling up' will be infrastructure, it will take time. If they're serious about it, then it's a project for two decades or more.

    But some is being done: on the railways alone, you have the Ashington line which may open in 2024, and although it is not the north, the Okehampton line in rural Devon has been totally relaid and should open by the end of the year. It should be said that the latter is the easiest of easy reopenings: private services were running until recently.
    Mmm. Yes. The Ashington Line has been banged on about since the 90's. Planning has been since the early 10's. Under Labour, then Tory minority Council control. It's isn't really a Boris levelling up policy. They've just given it some funding.
    We are hamstrung here by being unable to reach any other part of the NE by rail without going through Newcastle.
    Well, yes. It has been talked about for years - and so have Okehampton and others. But it's happening under them, whereas it wasn't before. The reason? The funding.

    As an aside, the odd thing is that the railways seem to do quite well for investment under Conservative governments when compared to Labour. Thatcher's governments electrified many routes, whilst Brown and Blair's governments only electrified a few miles between Crewe and Kidsgrove. Under the coalition and Conservative governments, we've had GWML, EGIP, part of the MML, and work just started on the Trans-Pennine route. I've probably missed some.

    If you're interested in the good of the railways, vote Conservative. ;)
    Depends where you are. Devolved in Scotland, so add the SNP to that list (at least when the Tories aren't joining Labout and voting Edinburgh trams through and wrecking the public transport investment programmes). It's quite noriceable how Modern Railways writers regard the SNP as a positive influence.

    I was going to ask about Wales but as one of us reminded us the other day, the railways in Wales are not devolved ...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    And yet you get the definite sense he is being truthful and he will spend the next year farming, as before

    This is probably the greatest achievement of the show, and also why it works: Clarkson appears sincere most of the time, indeed passionately so

    The worst bits of Top Gear and TGT were the most confected, insincere scenes (and the tedious interviews with celebrities, which he obviously disliked doing). Give him something he likes doing and really tries to do well, and he is naturally funny and watchable - and informative

    Like others here, I learned more about modern farming in 8 hours than I have done in the last 30 years, while being richly entertained

    Absolutely.

    And of course he has booked 2 more seasons so he has to do at least some farmering
    You know he’s a remainer, right?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    And yet you get the definite sense he is being truthful and he will spend the next year farming, as before

    This is probably the greatest achievement of the show, and also why it works: Clarkson appears sincere most of the time, indeed passionately so

    The worst bits of Top Gear and TGT were the most confected, insincere scenes (and the tedious interviews with celebrities, which he obviously disliked doing). Give him something he likes doing and really tries to do well, and he is naturally funny and watchable - and informative

    Like others here, I learned more about modern farming in 8 hours than I have done in the last 30 years, while being richly entertained

    Absolutely.

    And of course he has booked 2 more seasons so he has to do at least some farmering
    You know he’s a remainer, right?
    Indeed. Brave guy. I see (from press reports) he's been discovering the joys of Brexit, RP style.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    tlg86 said:

    You know he’s a remainer, right?

    Yes. Why?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Sajid Javid is understood to have held a face-to-face meeting with the Prime Minister yesterday, raising the possibility that Boris Johnson will be self-isolating on "Freedom Day" on Monday https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1416382560486273026
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions. And wealth. On which point -

    Housing. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate wealth. The cheap ones up North don't.
    If you want to try and be rich and high status then move South, if you are happy with an average lifestyle and want to be able to be sure you can buy your own home on even an average income then move North
    Is how it is now, yes, and has been for ages. Fob off Northerners with "Your houses are cheap and so your disposable income is high. Just enjoy that and leave the big boy stuff to the big boys."

    "Leveling Up" hasn't happened until this changes. Until power and wealth and opportunity is devolved from London to a significant degree. That's my take on it. It's not about new shopping centres.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Sajid Javid is understood to have held a face-to-face meeting with the Prime Minister yesterday, raising the possibility that Boris Johnson will be self-isolating on "Freedom Day" on Monday https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1416382560486273026

    I thought government minsters didn't have to isolate as they were part of some trial scheme where they get tested every day? Hence Gove also escaped ping-mania the other week.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fingers crossed


    Mister Robert Smithson predicted that yesterday was The Peak in daily UK cases. I was fiercely skeptical, but if he has called it right - BRAVO
    Zoe’s been good overall since June but past performance and all that…
    Surely the only way that the Freedom Day on Monday is not going to bump that figure up is if there's a lot more immunity amongst the unvaxxed than we thought?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,580
    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's been quite the week in the culture wars. One Tory insider told @Alain_Tolhurst No.10 was "obsessed" with red wall voters, but feared they had created a caricature and completely misjudged the national mood.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/wedged-in-how-the-culture-war-backfired-on-the-tories

    Yes, it seems that the stereotyping of the Red Wall as neanderthal bigots is at least as much a problem for the Tories as for elements of Labour.
    Not sure if it is 'at least as much' a problem for them, but it's certainly true the extent of the Red Wall has morphed in peoples' minds a bit, and it's homogenity of thought exaggerated. I think that cowardly (for not giving a name) insider is probably correct, as 'how will it play in the Red Wall?' seems to be the first and only question a lot of the time.

    As rottenborough notes it opens up opportunities particularly for the LDs, as we have seen. Sure, the Tory bedrock is probably solid enough for another election, but they are overdoing the love bombing of the Red Wall compared to elsewhere.
    The interesting thing is how little has actually been done for the Red Wall so far.

    Town funds and a bit of putative infrastructure.

    Anything else in serious amounts?
    Warm words/hot air.
    There's been a hurricane force of that.
    Since a great deal of the 'levelling up' will be infrastructure, it will take time. If they're serious about it, then it's a project for two decades or more.

    But some is being done: on the railways alone, you have the Ashington line which may open in 2024, and although it is not the north, the Okehampton line in rural Devon has been totally relaid and should open by the end of the year. It should be said that the latter is the easiest of easy reopenings: private services were running until recently.
    Mmm. Yes. The Ashington Line has been banged on about since the 90's. Planning has been since the early 10's. Under Labour, then Tory minority Council control. It's isn't really a Boris levelling up policy. They've just given it some funding.
    We are hamstrung here by being unable to reach any other part of the NE by rail without going through Newcastle.
    Well, yes. It has been talked about for years - and so have Okehampton and others. But it's happening under them, whereas it wasn't before. The reason? The funding.

    As an aside, the odd thing is that the railways seem to do quite well for investment under Conservative governments when compared to Labour. Thatcher's governments electrified many routes, whilst Brown and Blair's governments only electrified a few miles between Crewe and Kidsgrove. Under the coalition and Conservative governments, we've had GWML, EGIP, part of the MML, and work just started on the Trans-Pennine route. I've probably missed some.

    If you're interested in the good of the railways, vote Conservative. ;)
    Depends where you are. Devolved in Scotland, so add the SNP to that list (at least when the Tories aren't joining Labout and voting Edinburgh trams through and wrecking the public transport investment programmes). It's quite noriceable how Modern Railways writers regard the SNP as a positive influence.

    I was going to ask about Wales but as one of us reminded us the other day, the railways in Wales are not devolved ...
    Yep, Scotland's done well with this - not just line reopenings, but stations as well. Wales has as well - e.g. the Ebbw Vale line (albeit this was led by the area's Labour then-MP).

    As for the Edinburgh trams - I personally thing it was a good idea, and although I haven't looked deeply into it, it seems to have been really incompetently carried out. In particular, as they trimmed the route down to the airport spine, the less compelling the entire project became. I'm hoping things will improve with the extension to Leith and Newhaven - IMO that should have been the first bit to open...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Afternoon all :)

    A quick look at some Euro-polling - first, the latest from Germany:

    CDU/CSU-EPP: 30% (+1)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 20% (-2)
    SPD-S&D: 15% (+1)
    AfD-ID: 10%
    FDP-RE: 10%
    LINKE-LEFT: 7%

    (changes from last poll on 22/6-24/6)

    It remains to be seen whether the floods will impact on these numbers but it's the first poll for a long time showing the Union at 30% while Green support has sunk back to 20% and the SPD are creeping back up as well.

    Three polls from Italy but the key point is the Brothers of Italy (FdL), LEGA and the Social Democrats are in a statistical tie at 20%. FdL have moved up slowly but steadily as the main opposition to the broad based Government.
    Five Star are on 15% and Forza Italia on 9%. Next election is due no later than 1/6/23.

    In Bulgaria, Trifonov and the ITN have eschewed coalition building and are going to try to form a minority Government when the Parliament assembles this week. I suspect it won't end well and, dare I say it, another election could b eon the cards in the autumn.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited July 2021
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    You can't live off money in a house unless you sell it, though, so if you ever want to see that money, you'll have to move somewhere cheaper eventually.

    If you've paid off the mortgage on your 3 quid house in the Noooorth then you could always invest in some property funds if you feel you are missing out.

    Personally, I'd rather avoid all the hassle of London. Power and Influence are mostly illusory.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Scott_xP said:

    GB News staff predicting Nigel Farage will take over the daily afternoon show on the channel from Simon McCoy. All speculative, but could result in Farage co-presenting with Alex Phillips - an ex-UKIP leader hosting a news show with balance provided by his former spokesperson.
    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1416379924286525440

    They do realise they will have even fewer advertisers with this move don't they?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited July 2021

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fingers crossed


    Mister Robert Smithson predicted that yesterday was The Peak in daily UK cases. I was fiercely skeptical, but if he has called it right - BRAVO
    Zoe’s been good overall since June but past performance and all that…
    Surely the only way that the Freedom Day on Monday is not going to bump that figure up is if there's a lot more immunity amongst the unvaxxed than we thought?
    I don’t think it’s going to make a heck of a lot of difference. The effect of the end of the marginal number of remaining restrictions will be offset by the upcoming good weather, schools breaking up in England, and the end of the Euros
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited July 2021

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's been quite the week in the culture wars. One Tory insider told @Alain_Tolhurst No.10 was "obsessed" with red wall voters, but feared they had created a caricature and completely misjudged the national mood.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/wedged-in-how-the-culture-war-backfired-on-the-tories

    Yes, it seems that the stereotyping of the Red Wall as neanderthal bigots is at least as much a problem for the Tories as for elements of Labour.
    Not sure if it is 'at least as much' a problem for them, but it's certainly true the extent of the Red Wall has morphed in peoples' minds a bit, and it's homogenity of thought exaggerated. I think that cowardly (for not giving a name) insider is probably correct, as 'how will it play in the Red Wall?' seems to be the first and only question a lot of the time.

    As rottenborough notes it opens up opportunities particularly for the LDs, as we have seen. Sure, the Tory bedrock is probably solid enough for another election, but they are overdoing the love bombing of the Red Wall compared to elsewhere.
    The interesting thing is how little has actually been done for the Red Wall so far.

    Town funds and a bit of putative infrastructure.

    Anything else in serious amounts?
    Warm words/hot air.
    There's been a hurricane force of that.
    Since a great deal of the 'levelling up' will be infrastructure, it will take time. If they're serious about it, then it's a project for two decades or more.

    But some is being done: on the railways alone, you have the Ashington line which may open in 2024, and although it is not the north, the Okehampton line in rural Devon has been totally relaid and should open by the end of the year. It should be said that the latter is the easiest of easy reopenings: private services were running until recently.
    Mmm. Yes. The Ashington Line has been banged on about since the 90's. Planning has been since the early 10's. Under Labour, then Tory minority Council control. It's isn't really a Boris levelling up policy. They've just given it some funding.
    We are hamstrung here by being unable to reach any other part of the NE by rail without going through Newcastle.
    Well, yes. It has been talked about for years - and so have Okehampton and others. But it's happening under them, whereas it wasn't before. The reason? The funding.

    As an aside, the odd thing is that the railways seem to do quite well for investment under Conservative governments when compared to Labour. Thatcher's governments electrified many routes, whilst Brown and Blair's governments only electrified a few miles between Crewe and Kidsgrove. Under the coalition and Conservative governments, we've had GWML, EGIP, part of the MML, and work just started on the Trans-Pennine route. I've probably missed some.

    If you're interested in the good of the railways, vote Conservative. ;)
    Depends where you are. Devolved in Scotland, so add the SNP to that list (at least when the Tories aren't joining Labout and voting Edinburgh trams through and wrecking the public transport investment programmes). It's quite noriceable how Modern Railways writers regard the SNP as a positive influence.

    I was going to ask about Wales but as one of us reminded us the other day, the railways in Wales are not devolved ...
    Yep, Scotland's done well with this - not just line reopenings, but stations as well. Wales has as well - e.g. the Ebbw Vale line (albeit this was led by the area's Labour then-MP).

    As for the Edinburgh trams - I personally thing it was a good idea, and although I haven't looked deeply into it, it seems to have been really incompetently carried out. In particular, as they trimmed the route down to the airport spine, the less compelling the entire project became. I'm hoping things will improve with the extension to Leith and Newhaven - IMO that should have been the first bit to open...
    I agree - excellent idea in principle, atrocious execution. Still needs 3-5 more lines including light railey ones to the Midlothian towns. It could have been great for my working life and look what happens. Edit: not just Midlothian, but also inner West and East Lothian.

    And one very underestimated improvement - Waverley Steps. An escalator at last!!!!!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    You can't live off money in a house unless you sell it, though, so if you ever want to see that money, you'll have to move somewhere cheaper eventually.

    If you've paid off the mortgage on your 3 quid house in the Noooorth then you could always invest in some property funds if you feel you are missing out.

    Personally, I'd rather avoid all the hassle of London. Power and Influence are mostly illusory.
    I have never regretted moving from London to the East Midlands. Housing is so much better value here, and other aspects of lifestyle too. It is still a rat race here but the other rats are a lot slower.

    If I fancy a trip into London, it takes about the same on the train as getting in from Tooting on the Northern line did. Indeed I am going down tommorow to see Foxjr2 in his new play. Getting good reviews.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    You can't live off money in a house unless you sell it, though, so if you ever want to see that money, you'll have to move somewhere cheaper eventually.

    If you've paid off the mortgage on your 3 quid house in the Noooorth then you could always invest in some property funds if you feel you are missing out.

    Personally, I'd rather avoid all the hassle of London. Power and Influence are mostly illusory.
    I have never regretted moving from London to the East Midlands. Housing is so much better value here, and other aspects of lifestyle too. It is still a rat race here but the other rats are a lot slower.

    If I fancy a trip into London, it takes about the same on the train as getting in from Tooting on the Northern line did. Indeed I am going down tommorow to see Foxjr2 in his new play. Getting good reviews.
    What's the play?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    You can't live off money in a house unless you sell it, though, so if you ever want to see that money, you'll have to move somewhere cheaper eventually.

    If you've paid off the mortgage on your 3 quid house in the Noooorth then you could always invest in some property funds if you feel you are missing out.

    Personally, I'd rather avoid all the hassle of London. Power and Influence are mostly illusory.
    What's this Leveling Up all about then?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Foxy said:

    Just as well that Javid was masked up when visiting a care home on Wednesday. If it were just a few days later...

    Gosh - if only pre-symptomatic people weren't infectious, and if only wearing a mask prevented you infecting anyone else ...
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Interesting to note after the U.K. announcement yesterday, (which is de facto casting doubt on vaccines) that the French by contrast have gone all in on vaccines. Domestic passes, and no restrictions on entering or leaving the country for vaccinated people. They’ve also come off the fence and are accepting the Indian vaccine. It certainly seems to have had a rocket ship effect in countering vaccine hesitancy.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    Chris said:

    Foxy said:

    Just as well that Javid was masked up when visiting a care home on Wednesday. If it were just a few days later...

    Gosh - if only pre-symptomatic people weren't infectious, and if only wearing a mask prevented you infecting anyone else ...
    Not such an issue if the Cabinet etc have daily tests as we are told, though it's still worrying.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fingers crossed


    Mister Robert Smithson predicted that yesterday was The Peak in daily UK cases. I was fiercely skeptical, but if he has called it right - BRAVO
    Zoe’s been good overall since June but past performance and all that…
    One thing I think a lot of people could have been underplaying is the impact of the football. It’s not the crowds at Wembley or anything. It’s the enormous numbers in pubs. Scotland’s cases rapidly increased when they were in the tournament and have dropped rapidly since. It could well be that England’s do the same.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    I am a bit confused by some tw@tterati stance....Macron making vaccines effectively mandatory as there will checks on vaccination status to access restaurants etc, great move....UK wanted vaccine passport, racist, discriminatory, id cards by the backdoor etc etc etc....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    alex_ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fingers crossed


    Mister Robert Smithson predicted that yesterday was The Peak in daily UK cases. I was fiercely skeptical, but if he has called it right - BRAVO
    Zoe’s been good overall since June but past performance and all that…
    One thing I think a lot of people could have been underplaying is the impact of the football. It’s not the crowds at Wembley or anything. It’s the enormous numbers in pubs. Scotland’s cases rapidly increased when they were in the tournament and have dropped rapidly since. It could well be that England’s do the same.
    Also loads of people will have had their mates around, all sitting in the same room for 3hrs, screaming, shouting, hugging, etc etc etc.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2021
    Foxy said:

    Just as well that Javid was masked up when visiting a care home on Wednesday. If it were just a few days later...

    Then all the fully vaccinated people in the care home wouldn’t have, er, become ill?

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,149

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    I have to say Clarkson's Farm is superb, by far the best thing he's done in many a year

    Isn’t it? Not only very entertaining but subtly educational. I learned more about farming in Britain in those few episodes than many years of countryfile.

    The same narrative arc and styling as a Top Gear special too, which is clearly a Clarkson hallmark: Clarkson has whacky idea; others warn him it’s mad; cue a series of slapstick disasters and set-piece fish out of water scenes; then a sudden change of mood as a big vista opens up, things start working like clockwork, and Clarkson’s voice takes on a tone of wonder.

    And also quite how much financial capital and hence risk there is in setting up in farming; he had to spend a lot of £ on attachments for his tractor.

    You can see why co-operatives work so well in France and Italy, collectively buying expensive kit and then renting it out to its members on a non-profit basis. Whereas UK and US farmers have to buy all their own stuff.
    Do they? The farmers I know tend to work in a collective when it comes to machines. Farmer A does the hay cropping on a contract basis, Farmer B has the fencing kit and the hedging flail, Farmer C puts his cattle on Farmer A's field etc etc.

    Maybe this doesn't happen in Big Farmer country (cereals etc), although I thought a lot of the harvesting was also done on a contract basis.
    There are different types of farming cooperatives - at one end something like co-owning machinery or say a grain dryer.

    At the other end marketing or processing organisations.

    At the top end there are quite a few that turn over in the 100s of millions ukp.

    Here is a slightly old list. Arla is only no 4.

    https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/25-biggest-farming-co-ops-ranked-by-turnover
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 370
    alex_ said:

    Interesting to note after the U.K. announcement yesterday, (which is de facto casting doubt on vaccines) that the French by contrast have gone all in on vaccines. Domestic passes, and no restrictions on entering or leaving the country for vaccinated people. They’ve also come off the fence and are accepting the Indian vaccine. It certainly seems to have had a rocket ship effect in countering vaccine hesitancy.

    UK first doses are 46.2 million, the UK population is 67.1 million (ONS June 2021), so 20.9 million UK inhabitants are unvaccinated. COVID cases are rocketing, and the government's plan is??? At least the Macron government seems to be taking action.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Scott_xP said:

    Having denied it and lied about it, they finally admit it in the 4th footnote of p.208 in a report slipped out on the day Boris Johnson made his big levelling up speech.

    So it would be awful if this admission were widely shared.

    https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1416373667936849925
    https://twitter.com/mirrorpolitics/status/1416334314699214850

    That's Keir Starmer's third PMQ sorted then.

    Government admits Boris Johnson's flat refurb originally paid for by Tory donors

    The bizarre funding chain was finally confirmed in the fourth footnote on the 208th page of the Cabinet Office’s annual report, which the Government quietly published on Thursday

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/government-admits-boris-johnsons-flat-24555148
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    You can't live off money in a house unless you sell it, though, so if you ever want to see that money, you'll have to move somewhere cheaper eventually.

    If you've paid off the mortgage on your 3 quid house in the Noooorth then you could always invest in some property funds if you feel you are missing out.

    Personally, I'd rather avoid all the hassle of London. Power and Influence are mostly illusory.
    I have never regretted moving from London to the East Midlands. Housing is so much better value here, and other aspects of lifestyle too. It is still a rat race here but the other rats are a lot slower.

    If I fancy a trip into London, it takes about the same on the train as getting in from Tooting on the Northern line did. Indeed I am going down tommorow to see Foxjr2 in his new play. Getting good reviews.
    Slower rats! Never thought of it like that, but yes, that's probably true to a certain extent.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,377
    edited July 2021
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility for an intelligent person to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
    His enemies should play the footage of him swooning like a besotted school girl when Trump flew into town at every opportunity - his mystique would be utterly shot in the UK if that took hold in the public consciousness.
    Not necessarily, 13% of British voters wanted Trump to beat Biden and that 13% of Leave voting, Boris and Trump lovers is GB news' core target audience (and likely significantly overlaps with the 13% who voted for Farage's UKIP in 2015)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2020/10/08/europe-wants-joe-biden-beat-donald-trump
    Also probably overlaps perfectly with the13% of England fans who booed the team taking a stance against racism.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited July 2021
    Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread unfortunate given the history of drugs cheats in athletics? This is compounded by the thought that any drugs cheat would quite rightly be disqualified from SPOTY.

    Let's be clear: no one is doubting Dina Asher Smith's integrity, or that she's a clean athlete.

    Maybe: "Questioning Dina Asher Smith's SPOTY chances" would have been a better headline? These things matter.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    alex_ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fingers crossed


    Mister Robert Smithson predicted that yesterday was The Peak in daily UK cases. I was fiercely skeptical, but if he has called it right - BRAVO
    Zoe’s been good overall since June but past performance and all that…
    One thing I think a lot of people could have been underplaying is the impact of the football. It’s not the crowds at Wembley or anything. It’s the enormous numbers in pubs. Scotland’s cases rapidly increased when they were in the tournament and have dropped rapidly since. It could well be that England’s do the same.
    Yeah, I think the end of restrictions this week will be offset by the end of the football, more people outside as the weather improves and the English schools breaking up. Although I just said that didn’t I…sorry, tough day.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    fox327 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting to note after the U.K. announcement yesterday, (which is de facto casting doubt on vaccines) that the French by contrast have gone all in on vaccines. Domestic passes, and no restrictions on entering or leaving the country for vaccinated people. They’ve also come off the fence and are accepting the Indian vaccine. It certainly seems to have had a rocket ship effect in countering vaccine hesitancy.

    UK first doses are 46.2 million, the UK population is 67.1 million (ONS June 2021), so 20.9 million UK inhabitants are unvaccinated. COVID cases are rocketing, and the government's plan is??? At least the Macron government seems to be taking action.
    Well the Government's "plan" is that case numbers don't particularly matter, and that our vaccination rate is good enough. France is in a different situation by and large. But it's good for my Indian vaccine backed holiday, so i'm reasonably content...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread unfortunate given the history of drugs cheats in athletics? This is compounded by the thought that any drugs cheat would quite rightly be disqualified from SPOTY.

    Let's be clear: no one is doubting Dina Asher Smith's integrity, or that she's a clean athlete.

    Maybe: "Questioning Dina Asher Smith's SPOTY chances" would have been a better headline? These things matter.

    This is a betting site, I think most people know what the title is getting at.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    Brother has covid, mum says he's fatigued.
    One jab, mid thirties.
    Fortunately my parents have had no contact so will be seeing them for my Dad's birthday tommorow
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    alex_ said:

    fox327 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting to note after the U.K. announcement yesterday, (which is de facto casting doubt on vaccines) that the French by contrast have gone all in on vaccines. Domestic passes, and no restrictions on entering or leaving the country for vaccinated people. They’ve also come off the fence and are accepting the Indian vaccine. It certainly seems to have had a rocket ship effect in countering vaccine hesitancy.

    UK first doses are 46.2 million, the UK population is 67.1 million (ONS June 2021), so 20.9 million UK inhabitants are unvaccinated. COVID cases are rocketing, and the government's plan is??? At least the Macron government seems to be taking action.
    Well the Government's "plan" is that case numbers don't particularly matter, and that our vaccination rate is good enough. France is in a different situation by and large. But it's good for my Indian vaccine backed holiday, so i'm reasonably content...
    It might be quite a good plan, despite your speech commas. They’ve vaccinated twice almost everyone most likely to die from covid. They’ve vaccinated the largest number we probably can of people most likely to be hospitalised from covid.

    We know the vaccines prevent hospitalisation in almost all cases in those vaccinated. And we know hospitalisation is rare for the under 30s, much less the under 18s. So once this wave of hospitalisations peaks, we should be in a good position to stop worrying about cases, which will occur largely in children, the vaccinated or the previously exposed.

    What’s your “plan” wise arse?

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,149

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    You can't live off money in a house unless you sell it, though, so if you ever want to see that money, you'll have to move somewhere cheaper eventually.

    If you've paid off the mortgage on your 3 quid house in the Noooorth then you could always invest in some property funds if you feel you are missing out.

    Personally, I'd rather avoid all the hassle of London. Power and Influence are mostly illusory.
    I have never regretted moving from London to the East Midlands. Housing is so much better value here, and other aspects of lifestyle too. It is still a rat race here but the other rats are a lot slower.

    If I fancy a trip into London, it takes about the same on the train as getting in from Tooting on the Northern line did. Indeed I am going down tommorow to see Foxjr2 in his new play. Getting good reviews.
    Slower rats! Never thought of it like that, but yes, that's probably true to a certain extent.
    A little known fact is that patches of the country have rats with different degrees of tolerance for different rat poisons.

    In my part of the East Midlands we seem to have super-rats.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,593
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    What do you mean by 'high status jobs and professions' ?

    Everywhere has doctors and lawyers and landowners and successful business owners.

    So what's this 'power and influence' ? Is it something people in Hampstead pretend they have to make up for living in a flat or two bedroom terrace ?

    As to ever higher house prices ? Is that really what you think people should be yearning after ? Are possible future inheritances something people should be basing their lives around ? It all sounds like some unpleasant combo of Jane Austen and Peter Mandelson.

    And what are the people who don't have the wealth and aren't going to inherit anything to do in London ? It doesn't sound like a basis for a equitable and happy society to me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385
    edited July 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    And yet you get the definite sense he is being truthful and he will spend the next year farming, as before

    This is probably the greatest achievement of the show, and also why it works: Clarkson appears sincere most of the time, indeed passionately so

    The worst bits of Top Gear and TGT were the most confected, insincere scenes (and the tedious interviews with celebrities, which he obviously disliked doing). Give him something he likes doing and really tries to do well, and he is naturally funny and watchable - and informative

    Like others here, I learned more about modern farming in 8 hours than I have done in the last 30 years, while being richly entertained

    Absolutely.

    And of course he has booked 2 more seasons so he has to do at least some farmering
    AIUI it hasn’t been renewed.

    I hope it isn’t, actually. Not because I didn’t enjoy it - I did, very much, and I agree with Horse it’s the best thing Clarkson’s done in years.

    I just don’t see how they could get that model of Clarkson cocking everything up through naivety, ignorance, inexperience and bad luck with the weather to work twice. So a second season would likely be a dud and detract from the enjoyment of Season 1.

    A more interesting idea if they do go ahead would be to widen it so it’s not just about Clarkson but about Caleb Cooper. Despite having many of the less convincing scripted lines (anyone notice he was always talking about Clarkson’s ‘poxy sheep’ despite saying in the first episode he ran 50 sheep on a small holding and fattened four pigs a year?) was very much the star and whose contracting business would allow for a wider range of farms, types and issues than Clarkson alone.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    You can't live off money in a house unless you sell it, though, so if you ever want to see that money, you'll have to move somewhere cheaper eventually.

    If you've paid off the mortgage on your 3 quid house in the Noooorth then you could always invest in some property funds if you feel you are missing out.

    Personally, I'd rather avoid all the hassle of London. Power and Influence are mostly illusory.
    What's this Leveling Up all about then?
    What is needed is more of those £50k jobs so that more people have the choice not to move to London to pursue a career.

    The disparity is mainly in the provision of infrastructure, and that is really what needs levelling up. London seems to attract all the transport investment (and I'd include HS2 in that)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385
    Pulpstar said:

    Brother has covid, mum says he's fatigued.
    One jab, mid thirties.
    Fortunately my parents have had no contact so will be seeing them for my Dad's birthday tommorow

    That sucks. Hope he’s OK apart from the fatigue.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    54,674...41.....

    Its coming home, its coming home, COVID coming home.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    You can't live off money in a house unless you sell it, though, so if you ever want to see that money, you'll have to move somewhere cheaper eventually.

    If you've paid off the mortgage on your 3 quid house in the Noooorth then you could always invest in some property funds if you feel you are missing out.

    Personally, I'd rather avoid all the hassle of London. Power and Influence are mostly illusory.
    What's this Leveling Up all about then?
    What is needed is more of those £50k jobs so that more people have the choice not to move to London to pursue a career.

    The disparity is mainly in the provision of infrastructure, and that is really what needs levelling up. London seems to attract all the transport investment (and I'd include HS2 in that)
    I’m old enough to remember when a bushy blonde haired mayor was campaigning against HS2, among other reasons because without also building Crossrail 2 through the London terminus, the extra passengers would overwhelm the London Underground.

    Seems to have died a quiet death since he became PM that one hasn’t it.
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    Tunisia: latest daily figure for deaths is the highest ever, 205, but given that the 7-day cases figure peaked last Tuesday this is probably explicable by the lag.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    What do you mean by 'high status jobs and professions' ?

    Everywhere has doctors and lawyers and landowners and successful business owners.

    So what's this 'power and influence' ? Is it something people in Hampstead pretend they have to make up for living in a flat or two bedroom terrace ?

    As to ever higher house prices ? Is that really what you think people should be yearning after ? Are possible future inheritances something people should be basing their lives around ? It all sounds like some unpleasant combo of Jane Austen and Peter Mandelson.

    And what are the people who don't have the wealth and aren't going to inherit anything to do in London ? It doesn't sound like a basis for a equitable and happy society to me.
    So why the big deal about leveling up? If this view is aligned to most people's reality we needn't worry whether it's just a soundbite because there's no real problem to be tackled.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,593
    Pulpstar said:

    Brother has covid, mum says he's fatigued.
    One jab, mid thirties.
    Fortunately my parents have had no contact so will be seeing them for my Dad's birthday tommorow

    The bright side is he doesn't have to worry about catching it afterwards for a long time.

    Will he need to start his vaccination from does one again a month after recovery ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    · 2h
    🚨 | NEW: Sajid Javid had a meeting with the PM yesterday, suggesting he is set to be pinged
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited July 2021

    54,674...41.....

    Its coming home, its coming home, COVID coming home.

    A dig into the cases by specimen date in England is actually more encouraging. First reports for yesterday (Friday) are down on Thursday’s by more than usual.


  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,593
    fox327 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting to note after the U.K. announcement yesterday, (which is de facto casting doubt on vaccines) that the French by contrast have gone all in on vaccines. Domestic passes, and no restrictions on entering or leaving the country for vaccinated people. They’ve also come off the fence and are accepting the Indian vaccine. It certainly seems to have had a rocket ship effect in countering vaccine hesitancy.

    UK first doses are 46.2 million, the UK population is 67.1 million (ONS June 2021), so 20.9 million UK inhabitants are unvaccinated. COVID cases are rocketing, and the government's plan is??? At least the Macron government seems to be taking action.
    Vaccination is massively skewed to the most at risk groups though.

    If you want to encourage further vaccination one idea would be put the pictures and names of everyone who died that day who wouldn't get vaccinated on the news. With a backing track of 'Another one bites the dust' followed by laughter.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Oliver Johnson
    @BristOliver
    Resolutely sticking to the view that I don't know when and how large the UK peak will be, and that the range of the uncertainty around any reasonable forecast probably includes both "it's basically fine" and "we have a very serious problem".

    I don't think this is a complete cop out, because we genuinely don't know how Monday goes. Paradoxically, if enough people believe it'll all be fine it may well not be, but if enough people believe it won't it might be. Try modelling that.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Scott_xP said:

    Sajid Javid is understood to have held a face-to-face meeting with the Prime Minister yesterday, raising the possibility that Boris Johnson will be self-isolating on "Freedom Day" on Monday https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1416382560486273026

    I thought government minsters didn't have to isolate as they were part of some trial scheme where they get tested every day? Hence Gove also escaped ping-mania the other week.
    Don't interrupt Scott - while he's salivating at the thought the HS might have spread Covid into a Care Home.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    felix said:

    he's salivating at the thought the HS might have spread Covid into a Care Home.

    Fuck off
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,593


    Politics For All
    @PoliticsForAlI
    · 2h
    🚨 | NEW: Sajid Javid had a meeting with the PM yesterday, suggesting he is set to be pinged

    Given that Boris has previously been infected and has been fully vaccinated it will hopefully emphasise the excessiveness of the system.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    A question for the experts - just had my second AZT jab finally. I now understand it caould improve my chances of avoiding serious illness by over 90% of my previous chance. I read today that statins reduce the risk of serious Covid by around 40%. Can I add that in the same way to bring my risk down further as i've takne them for many years?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Scott_xP said:

    felix said:

    he's salivating at the thought the HS might have spread Covid into a Care Home.

    Fuck off
    Lol.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    And yet you get the definite sense he is being truthful and he will spend the next year farming, as before

    This is probably the greatest achievement of the show, and also why it works: Clarkson appears sincere most of the time, indeed passionately so

    The worst bits of Top Gear and TGT were the most confected, insincere scenes (and the tedious interviews with celebrities, which he obviously disliked doing). Give him something he likes doing and really tries to do well, and he is naturally funny and watchable - and informative

    Like others here, I learned more about modern farming in 8 hours than I have done in the last 30 years, while being richly entertained

    Absolutely.

    And of course he has booked 2 more seasons so he has to do at least some farmering
    AIUI it hasn’t been renewed.

    I hope it isn’t, actually. Not because I didn’t enjoy it - I did, very much, and I agree with Horse it’s the best thing Clarkson’s done in years.

    I just don’t see how they could get that model of Clarkson cocking everything up through naivety, ignorance, inexperience and bad luck with the weather to work twice. So a second season would likely be a dud and detract from the enjoyment of Season 1.

    A more interesting idea if they do go ahead would be to widen it so it’s not just about Clarkson but about Caleb Cooper. Despite having many of the less convincing scripted lines (anyone notice he was always talking about Clarkson’s ‘poxy sheep’ despite saying in the first episode he ran 50 sheep on a small holding and fattened four pigs a year?) was very much the star and whose contracting business would allow for a wider range of farms, types and issues than Clarkson alone.
    It will surely be renewed in some form. It’s a massive hit, and not just in the UK. And it is bringing millions of new customers to Amazon. Are they really going to resist all this profit?


    ‘Clarkson's Farm is officially Amazon’s highest-ever rated show.’

    https://drivetribe.com/p/clarksons-farm-breaks-amazon-prime-DqUX4t-OSOGiuknuJCV3JA


    However you have a good point. They can’t just repeat the first season. Perhaps that is why they are hesitating before announcing, they need to work out the right format
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Rob Smithson was wrong, then. Yesterday wasn’t the Peak
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    Globally, you can get vaccinated, or you can get Delta. That’s your stark choice now.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    NEW: 17 July - 54,674 new cases and 41 deaths within 28 days of a positive test were reported across the UK.
    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1416413456677359620
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Is this the French taking the mickey out of what Boris Johnson has done…

    … by doing the reverse of his late night announcement and scrapping tests for people entering France if they are double vaxed

    Via Politico Covid newsletter
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416419838671663106/photo/1
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    moonshine said:

    alex_ said:

    fox327 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting to note after the U.K. announcement yesterday, (which is de facto casting doubt on vaccines) that the French by contrast have gone all in on vaccines. Domestic passes, and no restrictions on entering or leaving the country for vaccinated people. They’ve also come off the fence and are accepting the Indian vaccine. It certainly seems to have had a rocket ship effect in countering vaccine hesitancy.

    UK first doses are 46.2 million, the UK population is 67.1 million (ONS June 2021), so 20.9 million UK inhabitants are unvaccinated. COVID cases are rocketing, and the government's plan is??? At least the Macron government seems to be taking action.
    Well the Government's "plan" is that case numbers don't particularly matter, and that our vaccination rate is good enough. France is in a different situation by and large. But it's good for my Indian vaccine backed holiday, so i'm reasonably content...
    It might be quite a good plan, despite your speech commas. They’ve vaccinated twice almost everyone most likely to die from covid. They’ve vaccinated the largest number we probably can of people most likely to be hospitalised from covid.

    We know the vaccines prevent hospitalisation in almost all cases in those vaccinated. And we know hospitalisation is rare for the under 30s, much less the under 18s. So once this wave of hospitalisations peaks, we should be in a good position to stop worrying about cases, which will occur largely in children, the vaccinated or the previously exposed.

    What’s your “plan” wise arse?

    I wasn’t saying it was a bad “plan”! The point was that the person I was replying to was framing a “plan” as doing something. As opposed to not doing something.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    DougSeal said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    Globally, you can get vaccinated, or you can get Delta. That’s your stark choice now.

    The coronavirus reproduction number in Holland is R2.9 - in a widely vaxxed population

    Delta is insanely contagious


    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/reproductiegetal
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Covid cases surge eightfold in the Netherlands after nightclubs reopen' | via @telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/07/13/covid-cases-surge-eightfold-netherlands-nightclubs-reopen/
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    Rob Smithson was wrong, then. Yesterday wasn’t the Peak

    It wasn’t the peak by reporting date certainly. Could have been the peak by specimen date (see my post above)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Leon said:

    Rob Smithson was wrong, then. Yesterday wasn’t the Peak

    @rcs1000 has gone at the game.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    DougSeal said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    Globally, you can get vaccinated, or you can get Delta. That’s your stark choice now.
    Delta is like a free vaccine but with far worse and far more frequent side effects than either Pfizer or Azn. And the bit that people like contrarian will really hate, you don’t get to choose whether you have it or not!
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Sprint race a bit of a success so far…
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Rob Smithson was wrong, then. Yesterday wasn’t the Peak

    It wasn’t the peak by reporting date certainly. Could have been the peak by specimen date (see my post above)
    He wasn't specific, so perhaps he meant specimen date, but he should have said. Personally I think the dashbord figure, reporting date, is the easiest to use, the others are like deeper clues


    We've got another week of largely open schools and Freedom Day on Monday, so I will stand by my prediction of a reporting day peak of ~87,000 on Weds July 28
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Rob Smithson was wrong, then. Yesterday wasn’t the Peak

    It wasn’t the peak by reporting date certainly. Could have been the peak by specimen date (see my post above)
    He wasn't specific, so perhaps he meant specimen date, but he should have said. Personally I think the dashbord figure, reporting date, is the easiest to use, the others are like deeper clues


    We've got another week of largely open schools and Freedom Day on Monday, so I will stand by my prediction of a reporting day peak of ~87,000 on Weds July 28
    I think we agreed reporting date, in which case you are right,
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,593
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
    What do you mean by 'high status jobs and professions' ?

    Everywhere has doctors and lawyers and landowners and successful business owners.

    So what's this 'power and influence' ? Is it something people in Hampstead pretend they have to make up for living in a flat or two bedroom terrace ?

    As to ever higher house prices ? Is that really what you think people should be yearning after ? Are possible future inheritances something people should be basing their lives around ? It all sounds like some unpleasant combo of Jane Austen and Peter Mandelson.

    And what are the people who don't have the wealth and aren't going to inherit anything to do in London ? It doesn't sound like a basis for a equitable and happy society to me.
    So why the big deal about leveling up? If this view is aligned to most people's reality we needn't worry whether it's just a soundbite because there's no real problem to be tackled.
    Don't know but possible answers include:

    1) Genuine problems do exist in some areas.

    2) 'Grim up north' stereotyping.

    3) Genuinely thinking that places need to be 'more like London' even when they certainly don't.

    4) Its popular and wins votes.

    5) An easy return in PR terms - go and do the 'grim up north' photoshoot and then two years later return to the same town and have the photoshoot among new houses and declare the strategy a triumph.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Why the hell did I call myself Doug Seal?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    alex_ said:

    moonshine said:

    alex_ said:

    fox327 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting to note after the U.K. announcement yesterday, (which is de facto casting doubt on vaccines) that the French by contrast have gone all in on vaccines. Domestic passes, and no restrictions on entering or leaving the country for vaccinated people. They’ve also come off the fence and are accepting the Indian vaccine. It certainly seems to have had a rocket ship effect in countering vaccine hesitancy.

    UK first doses are 46.2 million, the UK population is 67.1 million (ONS June 2021), so 20.9 million UK inhabitants are unvaccinated. COVID cases are rocketing, and the government's plan is??? At least the Macron government seems to be taking action.
    Well the Government's "plan" is that case numbers don't particularly matter, and that our vaccination rate is good enough. France is in a different situation by and large. But it's good for my Indian vaccine backed holiday, so i'm reasonably content...
    It might be quite a good plan, despite your speech commas. They’ve vaccinated twice almost everyone most likely to die from covid. They’ve vaccinated the largest number we probably can of people most likely to be hospitalised from covid.

    We know the vaccines prevent hospitalisation in almost all cases in those vaccinated. And we know hospitalisation is rare for the under 30s, much less the under 18s. So once this wave of hospitalisations peaks, we should be in a good position to stop worrying about cases, which will occur largely in children, the vaccinated or the previously exposed.

    What’s your “plan” wise arse?

    I wasn’t saying it was a bad “plan”! The point was that the person I was replying to was framing a “plan” as doing something. As opposed to not doing something.
    Fair dinkum! I am particularly nervous that Johnson is about to shit the bed and unwind the reopening after a week so am easily triggered.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    DougSeal said:

    Why the hell did I call myself Doug Seal?

    Because Ron Seal was taken?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Why the hell did I call myself Doug Seal?

    Because Ron Seal was taken?
    That’s it!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835

    DougSeal said:

    Why the hell did I call myself Doug Seal?

    Because Ron Seal was taken?
    Basil too.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Oh!!



    Rachel Clarke
    @doctor_oxford
    ·
    2h
    If you feel unwell:

    Please *don’t* do what Sajid Javid describes here.

    LFTs are for those without symptoms, as the NHS website clearly states.

    A negative LFT does *not* rule out Covid.

    If you have Covid symptoms, book a PCR test & self-isolate until the result is back 🙏
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,593

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    Ultimately the country will run out of anti-vaxxers to infect.

    And meanwhile hundreds of thousands more vaccinations come into effect everyday.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    But corona is burning through the population, 55,000 reported cases a day, and this after 17 months of infection

    It will soon run out of potential unvaxed hosts, unless it mutates so that it can easily reinfect

    The bug won't have anywhere to go, so an autumn lockdown seems unlikely. Or am I missing something?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    But corona is burning through the population, 55,000 reported cases a day, and this after 17 months of infection

    It will soon run out of potential unvaxed hosts, unless it mutates so that it can easily reinfect

    The bug won't have anywhere to go, so an autumn lockdown seems unlikely. Or am I missing something?
    The vaxed, remember. Also the population is not homogeneous or totally mixed esp in school hols. Scottish school return (earlier than England) willl be interesting.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    But corona is burning through the population, 55,000 reported cases a day, and this after 17 months of infection

    It will soon run out of potential unvaxed hosts, unless it mutates so that it can easily reinfect

    The bug won't have anywhere to go, so an autumn lockdown seems unlikely. Or am I missing something?
    FWIW I agree with you. If by the end of August/early September hospital admissions haven’t topped out I think some restrictions (not a lockdown) could be brought back, but I’d be surprised if we haven’t peaked before then. Scotland has, Zoe indicates we are plateauing, and the schools in England are breaking up. So, yeah, I’m concerned but not yet alarmed by the way things are going. But, again, I’m a lawyer. What do I know?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    I recommend this article

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/16/covid-19-seasonal-virus-spreading-during-summer-pandemic
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    But corona is burning through the population, 55,000 reported cases a day, and this after 17 months of infection

    It will soon run out of potential unvaxed hosts, unless it mutates so that it can easily reinfect

    The bug won't have anywhere to go, so an autumn lockdown seems unlikely. Or am I missing something?
    The vaxed, remember. Also the population is not homogeneous or totally mixed esp in school hols. Scottish school return (earlier than England) willl be interesting.
    But it is basic maths. The UK has endured 5.5m Covid cases since the pandemic began, and we have double jabbed 35m. Clearly there is much overlap between these numbers, but there will also be cases which have gone unreported

    Quite soon the virus will begin to exhaust its supply of hosts, and R0 will plunge
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    It won't because we cannot afford it.
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 2021
    Nige will have a nightly show on GB News called "Farage" every Monday to Thursday from next week. And he "won't be taking the knee for anyone". What a guy!

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1416427725770866690
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    And it was a very necessary policy when it was the only way of stopping a killer virus from rampaging through the population.

    That isn’t the case any more. Vaccines have fundamentally altered the equation. Even those who are getting sick after being double jabbed are not dying in large numbers.

    Which is why we should unlock now. When 89% of adults in my local area have had one jab and 70% have had two, if it isn’t over now it will never be over and we simply have to accept it will always be there.

    Which is roughly why I’ve gone from being a strong proponent of lockdowns to being strongly opposed to them.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    DougSeal said:

    Why the hell did I call myself Doug Seal?

    Doug > Ron ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385
    edited July 2021
    Gnud said:

    Nige will have a nightly show on GB News called "Farage" every Monday to Thursday from next week. And he "won't be taking the knee for anyone". What a guy!

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1416427725770866690

    So if the Queen is a guest, he won’t kneel to her?

    Fecking Republican...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    Gnud said:

    Nige will have a nightly show on GB News called "Farage" every Monday to Thursday from next week. And he "won't be taking the knee for anyone". What a guy!

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1416427725770866690

    Will he give the lefties the finger though?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    But corona is burning through the population, 55,000 reported cases a day, and this after 17 months of infection

    It will soon run out of potential unvaxed hosts, unless it mutates so that it can easily reinfect

    The bug won't have anywhere to go, so an autumn lockdown seems unlikely. Or am I missing something?
    The vaxed, remember. Also the population is not homogeneous or totally mixed esp in school hols. Scottish school return (earlier than England) willl be interesting.
    But it is basic maths. The UK has endured 5.5m Covid cases since the pandemic began, and we have double jabbed 35m. Clearly there is much overlap between these numbers, but there will also be cases which have gone unreported

    Quite soon the virus will begin to exhaust its supply of hosts, and R0 will plunge
    Quite. But the double vaccinated can catch and pass it on AIUI. So there is still a supply of hosts, albeit with transmission disrupted - hopefully to more than compensate for the higher basic infectiousness. It presumably all depends on the actual figures in reality.

    Edit: and of course the actual impact on the person too.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    But corona is burning through the population, 55,000 reported cases a day, and this after 17 months of infection

    It will soon run out of potential unvaxed hosts, unless it mutates so that it can easily reinfect

    The bug won't have anywhere to go, so an autumn lockdown seems unlikely. Or am I missing something?
    The vaxed, remember. Also the population is not homogeneous or totally mixed esp in school hols. Scottish school return (earlier than England) willl be interesting.
    But it is basic maths. The UK has endured 5.5m Covid cases since the pandemic began, and we have double jabbed 35m. Clearly there is much overlap between these numbers, but there will also be cases which have gone unreported

    Quite soon the virus will begin to exhaust its supply of hosts, and R0 will plunge
    "But it is basic maths."

    It very definitely isn't.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Acute doctor writes:

    seahorse
    @seahorse4000
    ·
    17h
    I can't count the number of times today I wrote "40 years old" (or 30, or 35) "fit and well, no medical history, not vaccinated"

    I don't know what it's like where the rest of you live, but in our district (population: about 135,000) confirmed cases are very heavily skewed towards the under 40s (the rate for the over 80s is currently zero,) and not a single Covid death has been recorded for the whole of the last three months. This is despite the fact that cases started trickling upwards again in late May and then took off like a rocket about a month ago, and our vaccination percentages are nothing special, being slightly below the national average. Meanwhile, as recently as Tuesday, the total number of Covid patients in the main hospital for this area, which serves a population considerably greater than that of the district, was eight. Not eighty. Eight.

    Of course, none of this is going to save us. If the national stats don't begin heading in the right direction very soon, we're going to end up back in lockdown along with everybody else. Great.
    Lockdown has become the default, goto policy. Hilariously, Johnson was once a well known liberal type.

    It will be back in autumn sadly.
    But corona is burning through the population, 55,000 reported cases a day, and this after 17 months of infection

    It will soon run out of potential unvaxed hosts, unless it mutates so that it can easily reinfect

    The bug won't have anywhere to go, so an autumn lockdown seems unlikely. Or am I missing something?
    The vaxed, remember. Also the population is not homogeneous or totally mixed esp in school hols. Scottish school return (earlier than England) willl be interesting.
    But it is basic maths. The UK has endured 5.5m Covid cases since the pandemic began, and we have double jabbed 35m. Clearly there is much overlap between these numbers, but there will also be cases which have gone unreported

    Quite soon the virus will begin to exhaust its supply of hosts, and R0 will plunge
    Only if we learn to ignore case numbers
This discussion has been closed.