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BBC Sports Personality of the Year – Doubting Dina Asher Smith – politicalbetting.com

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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    DougSeal said:

    So, set out to take the wife for her first visit to the States to see her family for two years, car broke down on the M26, she missed her flight. How’s everyone else’s day?

    What a bummer, hopefully there are later flights she can transfer to.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    edited July 2021
    Pretty hardcore.
    I wonder if the Greens might make back some ground after this? I believe Laschet hasn’t exactly shone..

    https://twitter.com/rsrhighlander2/status/1416315448623255552?s=21
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921


    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·
    1h
    Personal reflection on "freedom day". Until cases get much much lower, no indoor restaurants, pubs, museums, theatre, cinema etc for me.

    I don't want to get covid and I definitely don't want to pass it on to anyone else.

    Feels quite shit to be honest.

    If she has been double vaccinated she will effectively be a recluse forever then. Covid is not going away, just being double jabbed drastically reduces your chances of hospitalisation or death from it
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Maybe that is why McAndrew resigned?
    Well it’s one way to reduce your potential viewers by 50+%

    I’m half expecting it to be a cryptocoin for other reasons
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Maybe that is why McAndrew resigned?
    Neil is presumably stuck in his Frwnch villa now, needs to quarantine before returning.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    HYUFD said:


    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·
    1h
    Personal reflection on "freedom day". Until cases get much much lower, no indoor restaurants, pubs, museums, theatre, cinema etc for me.

    I don't want to get covid and I definitely don't want to pass it on to anyone else.

    Feels quite shit to be honest.

    If she has been double vaccinated she will effectively be a recluse forever then. Covid is not going away, just being double jabbed drastically reduces your chances of hospitalisation or death from it
    We have yet to see about Long Covid. But paper out soon as adumbrated on here.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,893

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    edited July 2021

    Levelling up – one key metric Mattinson reported in her book, Beyond the Red Wall, was the loss of flagship shops like Debenhams or Marks and Spencer. Another, of course, was jobs, especially closure of a town's main employer.

    Just building a new link road won't cut it, though might be necessary to attract new private investment.

    On 'levelling up', the term is of course merely a political slogan, one which is impossible to disagree with as a concept since in implies making X better off in some way without making Y poorer in some way. And as a generality that is not impossible, as levelling up has been occurring for centuries. It is what the Labour movement was created to achieve, and it has been remarkably successful.

    The devil of course is in the detail. I live in a most unfashionable bit of the north of England. Where white van man and factory worker is king etc. Huge numbers of people in the north are startlingly happy, have ambitions and aspiration which would be incomprehensible in north Oxford and are turning to vote Tory to affirm large amounts of the status quo. The Economist (occasionally) spots this truth but few other movers and shakers. I suspect Boris sort of understands too. he has excellent antennae.

    Suppose that levelling up actually meant that buying a detached house in the north of England generally was the same problem as buying one in north Oxford, anywhere within the M25, or in Bath most in the north would flee the idea rapidly.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    ydoethur said:
    An empty cabinet would be an improvement
    Whitehall would likely do a better job without Westminster.
    You think this democracy lark has run its course?
    No democracy for Scotland, if FUDHY is to be believed. If direct rule is so fabby then why not for England too?
    I have only advocated respecting the once in a generation 2014 vote and the government continuing to refuse a legal indyref2.

    Direct rule would mean scrapping Holyrood and restoring direct rule from Westminster as pre 1999.

    As it is Scotland still has its own Parliament but not England
    What does it matter if Scotland has its own parliament?

    'as long as there is a Tory UK government it does not matter what happens in Scotland'
    Correct. At the moment it does not matter as the Tories have a UK majority and an English majority.

    However it might matter in 2023/24 if Starmer gets in with SNP support but the Tories still have a majority in England and English voters have no domestic parliament to represent them as Scottish voters have now or even EVEL
    *sound of onions being fed into the Kenwood Chef slicing attachment in HYUFD's kitchen*

    Ah, just as I foretold the poor English Tories are all of a sudden downtrodden because they lack EVEL.

    Who abolished EVEL, I wonder? Mr Salmond? Mr Starmer? Mr Cameron?
    Mr Gove is driving its abolition it seems and Mr Gove is of course a Scot.

    I disagree with Mr Gove on EVEL as I have frequently said
    Irrelevant where he comes from.

    He's representing an English Tory-held constituency. So he is damaging his constituents' rights in your view.

    Gove is a plastic Scot , a Toom Tabard of epic proportions. Nobody on this planet could say that the odious little creep ever does anything to benefit Scotland.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited July 2021

    Pretty hardcore.
    I wonder if the Greens might make back some ground after this? I believe Laschet hasn’t exactly shone..

    https://twitter.com/rsrhighlander2/status/1416315448623255552?s=21

    I did notice the photo elsewhere on Twitter of a flooded car with a back window sticker bearing a very nasty message to Ms Thunberg (unrepeatable here). Cosmic irony.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Maybe that is why McAndrew resigned?
    Quite likely if the Farage speculation is true. It would become nothing more than Farage TV - exhilarating for devoted I'm sure, but an impossible environment for anyone nominally in charge.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    HYUFD said:


    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·
    1h
    Personal reflection on "freedom day". Until cases get much much lower, no indoor restaurants, pubs, museums, theatre, cinema etc for me.

    I don't want to get covid and I definitely don't want to pass it on to anyone else.

    Feels quite shit to be honest.

    If she has been double vaccinated she will effectively be a recluse forever then. Covid is not going away, just being double jabbed drastically reduces your chances of hospitalisation or death from it
    But not by enough, it would seem.

    Unless the situation with rising Covid patient numbers stabilises in the next few weeks, then the Government will set about testing the public's hitherto enormous appetite for authoritarianism and endless rules and regulations. You can see them telling us that we all have to stay at home from September until next Easter, to keep the schools open and the hospitals from imploding.

    Anyone who thinks this is all over bar the shouting *might* be right, but it's a very long way from a done deal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Pretty hardcore.
    I wonder if the Greens might make back some ground after this? I believe Laschet hasn’t exactly shone..

    https://twitter.com/rsrhighlander2/status/1416315448623255552?s=21

    Pretty wet in NZ too:

    "Around *33 inches* of rain has fallen high in New Zealand's Southern Alps over the last 3 days 😵

    This caused alpine rivers to swell and burst their banks.

    For the town of Westport on the South Island, the worst flooding in ~100 years has occurred.

    https://t.co/MaaGcfG2ey"

    The West Coast is famously wet, but even so that is pretty extreme.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Carnyx said:

    Pretty hardcore.
    I wonder if the Greens might make back some ground after this? I believe Laschet hasn’t exactly shone..

    https://twitter.com/rsrhighlander2/status/1416315448623255552?s=21

    I did notice the photo elsewhere on Twitter of a flooded car with a back window sticker bearing a very nasty message to Ms Thunberg (unrepeatable here). Cosmic irony.
    Photoshopped...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    Male model? Craft baker? Another tired, old grift to squeeze money out of a deflating culture war?

    I’m plumping for the last one.

    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/1416321544914149377?s=21

    CEO of the NHS?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:


    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·
    1h
    Personal reflection on "freedom day". Until cases get much much lower, no indoor restaurants, pubs, museums, theatre, cinema etc for me.

    I don't want to get covid and I definitely don't want to pass it on to anyone else.

    Feels quite shit to be honest.

    If she has been double vaccinated she will effectively be a recluse forever then. Covid is not going away, just being double jabbed drastically reduces your chances of hospitalisation or death from it
    But not by enough, it would seem.

    Unless the situation with rising Covid patient numbers stabilises in the next few weeks, then the Government will set about testing the public's hitherto enormous appetite for authoritarianism and endless rules and regulations. You can see them telling us that we all have to stay at home from September until next Easter, to keep the schools open and the hospitals from imploding.

    Anyone who thinks this is all over bar the shouting *might* be right, but it's a very long way from a done deal.
    Yep. I am now resigned to lockdown this autumn to be honest.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2021

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    In the North and Midlands and Scotland and Wales if you are on an average income then it is perfectly possible to get on the housing ladder and buy your own home by 30 as housing is so much cheaper.

    In London and the South East though unless you have very wealthy parents willing to lend you the money for a deposit or have a very high earning job in the City that is near impossible.

    Indeed at the 2019 general election the Tories actually got a higher voteshare in the East Midlands than the South East, 54.9% to 54.2% despite the South East traditionally being their best area

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    HYUFD said:


    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·
    1h
    Personal reflection on "freedom day". Until cases get much much lower, no indoor restaurants, pubs, museums, theatre, cinema etc for me.

    I don't want to get covid and I definitely don't want to pass it on to anyone else.

    Feels quite shit to be honest.

    If she has been double vaccinated she will effectively be a recluse forever then. Covid is not going away, just being double jabbed drastically reduces your chances of hospitalisation or death from it
    At least she had the good grace to also tweet she was lucky she could lock herself at home and avoid any people with the plague.

    I think it was Dave Paton at the lockdown conference this morning who pointed out that vast numbers of academics have been in favour of stricter lockdowns all the way through this but they have no skin in the economic game as they are paid in full as normal to stay at home.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    FPT
    MarqueeMark said:
    '"C-4 Lab +4 say."

    You do know that the B&S swing would have lost 25 more Labour seats to the Conservatives over 2019? '

    Rather ridiculous to suggest that B&S showed a pro- Tory swing in the context of Galloway's vote in excess of 8,000. Had he not stood, Labour would likely have won by over 5,000 - ie a pro- Labour swing of over 3%.
    On the basis of the unadjusted swing figures, C&A showed a swing to Labour from the Tories of 4.35% - enough to gain 46 Tory seats. That would be just as nonsensical.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    https://twitter.com/GregClinker/status/1416304576530157571

    The kind of thing Labour has to contend with, how do they respond to comments like this?

    Yes, it was dispiriting listening to some of those people. But we have to work with the electorate as it is, I suppose, not how we'd like it to be.

    Within reason, that is. If somebody truly is of the fixed mindset that young people are congenitally lazy and need to be starved into work, do we actually want their vote? We probably don't because the sort of noises we'd have to make to get it will lose us many more - quite rightly since we'd have violated our core values.

    Leading Labour back to power. It's a tricky one, it really is. Glad it's Keir not me with the task.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    Foxy said:

    Pretty hardcore.
    I wonder if the Greens might make back some ground after this? I believe Laschet hasn’t exactly shone..

    https://twitter.com/rsrhighlander2/status/1416315448623255552?s=21

    Pretty wet in NZ too:

    "Around *33 inches* of rain has fallen high in New Zealand's Southern Alps over the last 3 days 😵

    This caused alpine rivers to swell and burst their banks.

    For the town of Westport on the South Island, the worst flooding in ~100 years has occurred.

    https://t.co/MaaGcfG2ey"

    The West Coast is famously wet, but even so that is pretty extreme.
    I wonder if we're reaching the critical 'humanity will always do the right thing, only after they have tried everything else' point? I tend to think we only do the difficult stuff after our feet are pretty blistered by the fire.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:


    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·
    1h
    Personal reflection on "freedom day". Until cases get much much lower, no indoor restaurants, pubs, museums, theatre, cinema etc for me.

    I don't want to get covid and I definitely don't want to pass it on to anyone else.

    Feels quite shit to be honest.

    If she has been double vaccinated she will effectively be a recluse forever then. Covid is not going away, just being double jabbed drastically reduces your chances of hospitalisation or death from it
    But not by enough, it would seem.

    Unless the situation with rising Covid patient numbers stabilises in the next few weeks, then the Government will set about testing the public's hitherto enormous appetite for authoritarianism and endless rules and regulations. You can see them telling us that we all have to stay at home from September until next Easter, to keep the schools open and the hospitals from imploding.

    Anyone who thinks this is all over bar the shouting *might* be right, but it's a very long way from a done deal.
    Florida 'opened up' for good 10 months ago. Normal life prevails.

    Some medics. have been told that unless they toe the line their career might develop in a direction that is not necessarily to their advantage. Actually, these things can be hinted at which is usually enough for them to conform to the narrative being pushed at the time

    Medics. have form on following the herd instinct and not thinking for themselves. I don't listen to a word they say any more unless they can cite some decent evidence. Increasingly 'trials' are doctored, pardon the pun, to deliver the conclusion that treatment X is beneficial. Since March 2020 some doctors have concluded that the scientific method has died. We only have dogma, i.e.

    COVID is deadly (it's not unless you were near death's door; sometimes this was unknown to you, as in 'healthy' people aged 38 dropping dead of a stroke)
    natural immunity doesn't exist, only vaccine-induced immunity
    lockdowns work
    vaccines work
    vaccines with only an EUA are 99.9999% safe
    the long-term effects of injecting synthetic genetic material are known (pharma doesn't believe that; it's more honest than government in disclosing that it doesn't know).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Javid tests positive for Covid and is self isolating, though he has been double jabbed so his symptoms should be mild

    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1416375392374513668?s=20
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,149
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's been quite the week in the culture wars. One Tory insider told @Alain_Tolhurst No.10 was "obsessed" with red wall voters, but feared they had created a caricature and completely misjudged the national mood.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/wedged-in-how-the-culture-war-backfired-on-the-tories

    Yes, it seems that the stereotyping of the Red Wall as neanderthal bigots is at least as much a problem for the Tories as for elements of Labour.
    Not sure if it is 'at least as much' a problem for them, but it's certainly true the extent of the Red Wall has morphed in peoples' minds a bit, and it's homogenity of thought exaggerated. I think that cowardly (for not giving a name) insider is probably correct, as 'how will it play in the Red Wall?' seems to be the first and only question a lot of the time.

    As rottenborough notes it opens up opportunities particularly for the LDs, as we have seen. Sure, the Tory bedrock is probably solid enough for another election, but they are overdoing the love bombing of the Red Wall compared to elsewhere.
    The interesting thing is how little has actually been done for the Red Wall so far.

    Town funds and a bit of putative infrastructure.

    Anything else in serious amounts?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2021
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    In terms of affordable housing no, most housing in the North is relatively cheap and affordable already unlike in London and the South East.

    In terms of well paid, graduate jobs maybe but there is a risk of course the more of those you have in the North the more higher house prices will follow too
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's been quite the week in the culture wars. One Tory insider told @Alain_Tolhurst No.10 was "obsessed" with red wall voters, but feared they had created a caricature and completely misjudged the national mood.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/wedged-in-how-the-culture-war-backfired-on-the-tories

    Yes, it seems that the stereotyping of the Red Wall as neanderthal bigots is at least as much a problem for the Tories as for elements of Labour.
    Not sure if it is 'at least as much' a problem for them, but it's certainly true the extent of the Red Wall has morphed in peoples' minds a bit, and it's homogenity of thought exaggerated. I think that cowardly (for not giving a name) insider is probably correct, as 'how will it play in the Red Wall?' seems to be the first and only question a lot of the time.

    As rottenborough notes it opens up opportunities particularly for the LDs, as we have seen. Sure, the Tory bedrock is probably solid enough for another election, but they are overdoing the love bombing of the Red Wall compared to elsewhere.
    The interesting thing is how little has actually been done for the Red Wall so far.

    Town funds and a bit of putative infrastructure.

    Anything else in serious amounts?
    Warm words/hot air.
    There's been a hurricane force of that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385


    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·
    1h
    Personal reflection on "freedom day". Until cases get much much lower, no indoor restaurants, pubs, museums, theatre, cinema etc for me.

    I don't want to get covid and I definitely don't want to pass it on to anyone else.

    Feels quite shit to be honest.

    I have to say that feels like good news. It severely reduces the risk of running into her.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited July 2021

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility for an intelligent person to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    In the North and Midlands and Scotland and Wales if you are on an average income then it is perfectly possible to get on the housing ladder and buy your own home by 30 as housing is so much cheaper.

    In London and the South East though unless you have very wealthy parents willing to lend you the money for a deposit or have a very high earning job in the City that is near impossible.

    Indeed at the 2019 general election the Tories actually got a higher voteshare in the East Midlands than the South East, 54.9% to 54.2% despite the South East traditionally being their best area

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    Notice who you have left out there? The South West, the forgotten cousin of English regions.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited July 2021
    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    I have to say Clarkson's Farm is superb, by far the best thing he's done in many a year

    Isn’t it? Not only very entertaining but subtly educational. I learned more about farming in Britain in those few episodes than many years of countryfile.

    The same narrative arc and styling as a Top Gear special too, which is clearly a Clarkson hallmark: Clarkson has whacky idea; others warn him it’s mad; cue a series of slapstick disasters and set-piece fish out of water scenes; then a sudden change of mood as a big vista opens up, things start working like clockwork, and Clarkson’s voice takes on a tone of wonder.

    And also quite how much financial capital and hence risk there is in setting up in farming; he had to spend a lot of £ on attachments for his tractor.

    You can see why co-operatives work so well in France and Italy, collectively buying expensive kit and then renting it out to its members on a non-profit basis. Whereas UK and US farmers have to buy all their own stuff.
    Do they? The farmers I know tend to work in a collective when it comes to machines. Farmer A does the hay cropping on a contract basis, Farmer B has the fencing kit and the hedging flail, Farmer C puts his cattle on Farmer A's field etc etc.

    Maybe this doesn't happen in Big Farmer country (cereals etc), although I thought a lot of the harvesting was also done on a contract basis.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2021

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    If you want to be a high earner and work in the City or have wealthy parents then living in London and the South East is fine.

    For average earners without wealthy parents however you are much more likely to be able to buy your own home now and have an affordable lifestyle up North, even if the transport links could do with improvement.

    There are plenty of town centres in the South which could do with improvement too, just a reflection of the shift of retail online
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    I have to say Clarkson's Farm is superb, by far the best thing he's done in many a year

    Isn’t it? Not only very entertaining but subtly educational. I learned more about farming in Britain in those few episodes than many years of countryfile.

    The same narrative arc and styling as a Top Gear special too, which is clearly a Clarkson hallmark: Clarkson has whacky idea; others warn him it’s mad; cue a series of slapstick disasters and set-piece fish out of water scenes; then a sudden change of mood as a big vista opens up, things start working like clockwork, and Clarkson’s voice takes on a tone of wonder.

    And also quite how much financial capital and hence risk there is in setting up in farming; he had to spend a lot of £ on attachments for his tractor.

    You can see why co-operatives work so well in France and Italy, collectively buying expensive kit and then renting it out to its members on a non-profit basis. Whereas UK and US farmers have to buy all their own stuff.
    Do they? The farmers I know tend to work in a collective when it comes to machines. Farmer A does the hay cropping on a contract basis, Farmer B has the fencing kit and the hedging flail, Farmer C puts his cattle on Farmer A's field etc etc.

    Maybe this doesn't happen in Big Farmer country (cereals etc).
    I know a chap who has retired from farming himself, but rents out equipment at peak times.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    kinabalu said:

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
    Farage is worth listening to. Those who he's allied himself with, substantially less so.

    He should be in the Lords.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    I have to say Clarkson's Farm is superb, by far the best thing he's done in many a year

    Isn’t it? Not only very entertaining but subtly educational. I learned more about farming in Britain in those few episodes than many years of countryfile.

    The same narrative arc and styling as a Top Gear special too, which is clearly a Clarkson hallmark: Clarkson has whacky idea; others warn him it’s mad; cue a series of slapstick disasters and set-piece fish out of water scenes; then a sudden change of mood as a big vista opens up, things start working like clockwork, and Clarkson’s voice takes on a tone of wonder.

    And also quite how much financial capital and hence risk there is in setting up in farming; he had to spend a lot of £ on attachments for his tractor.

    You can see why co-operatives work so well in France and Italy, collectively buying expensive kit and then renting it out to its members on a non-profit basis. Whereas UK and US farmers have to buy all their own stuff.
    Do they? The farmers I know tend to work in a collective when it comes to machines. Farmer A does the hay cropping on a contract basis, Farmer B has the fencing kit, Farmer C puts his cattle on Farmer A's field etc etc.

    Maybe this doesn't happen in Big Farmer country (cereals etc).
    And a great deal of the machinery is rented up here. Again, maybe not if you have giant farms.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    00


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
    Farage is worth listening to. Those who he's allied himself with, substantially less so.

    He should be in the Lords.
    Should have made some friends then.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
    Farage is worth listening to. Those who he's allied himself with, substantially less so.

    He should be in the Lords.
    Farage is not establishment enough for the Lords
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,580
    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's been quite the week in the culture wars. One Tory insider told @Alain_Tolhurst No.10 was "obsessed" with red wall voters, but feared they had created a caricature and completely misjudged the national mood.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/wedged-in-how-the-culture-war-backfired-on-the-tories

    Yes, it seems that the stereotyping of the Red Wall as neanderthal bigots is at least as much a problem for the Tories as for elements of Labour.
    Not sure if it is 'at least as much' a problem for them, but it's certainly true the extent of the Red Wall has morphed in peoples' minds a bit, and it's homogenity of thought exaggerated. I think that cowardly (for not giving a name) insider is probably correct, as 'how will it play in the Red Wall?' seems to be the first and only question a lot of the time.

    As rottenborough notes it opens up opportunities particularly for the LDs, as we have seen. Sure, the Tory bedrock is probably solid enough for another election, but they are overdoing the love bombing of the Red Wall compared to elsewhere.
    The interesting thing is how little has actually been done for the Red Wall so far.

    Town funds and a bit of putative infrastructure.

    Anything else in serious amounts?
    Warm words/hot air.
    There's been a hurricane force of that.
    Since a great deal of the 'levelling up' will be infrastructure, it will take time. If they're serious about it, then it's a project for two decades or more.

    But some is being done: on the railways alone, you have the Ashington line which may open in 2024, and although it is not the north, the Okehampton line in rural Devon has been totally relaid and should open by the end of the year. It should be said that the latter is the easiest of easy reopenings: private services were running until recently.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Seems to me the Govt have potentially massively screwed up their messaging on vaccines. Increasingly it’s looking like vaccines are not a restraint on positive tests in an asymptomatic testing environment. But they’ve been selling (or not actively countering) vaccines as a protection against infection not just illness. How high can reported positive tests go before they have a real problem of decline of public confidence in vaccines?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2021
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    In the North and Midlands and Scotland and Wales if you are on an average income then it is perfectly possible to get on the housing ladder and buy your own home by 30 as housing is so much cheaper.

    In London and the South East though unless you have very wealthy parents willing to lend you the money for a deposit or have a very high earning job in the City that is near impossible.

    Indeed at the 2019 general election the Tories actually got a higher voteshare in the East Midlands than the South East, 54.9% to 54.2% despite the South East traditionally being their best area

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    Notice who you have left out there? The South West, the forgotten cousin of English regions.
    The South West is also still cheaper than the South East overall, average house is £340,318 compared to £459,794 in the South East and £674,182 in London. That is despite Londoners with second homes in Cornwall and Devon
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices-in-South-West.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices-in-South-East.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices-in-London.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385
    alex_ said:

    Seems to me the Govt have potentially massively screwed up their messaging on vaccines. Increasingly it’s looking like vaccines are not a restraint on positive tests in an asymptomatic testing environment. But they’ve been selling (or not actively countering) vaccines as a protection against infection not just illness. How high can reported positive tests go before they have a real problem of decline of public confidence in vaccines?

    Given how extensive the vaccine program is, it’s fortunately unlikely to have much impact at this stage.

    And if we can reopen safely without hundreds of thousands of deaths, because of vaccines, it will be forgotten.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    edited July 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
    Farage is worth listening to. Those who he's allied himself with, substantially less so.

    He should be in the Lords.
    Farage is not establishment enough for the Lords
    Might be a hard sell to the faithful, though tbf they didn't seem to have a problem with years of Nigel taking a big salary & benefits from the EU.
    Perhaps he could do a Baroness Roof of Lundin Links and say he's going to drain the swamp by becoming the swamp.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    In the North and Midlands and Scotland and Wales if you are on an average income then it is perfectly possible to get on the housing ladder and buy your own home by 30 as housing is so much cheaper.

    In London and the South East though unless you have very wealthy parents willing to lend you the money for a deposit or have a very high earning job in the City that is near impossible.

    Indeed at the 2019 general election the Tories actually got a higher voteshare in the East Midlands than the South East, 54.9% to 54.2% despite the South East traditionally being their best area

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    Notice who you have left out there? The South West, the forgotten cousin of English regions.
    I don't think anyone's forgotten about Cornwall, Devon, Bristol, etc. Most people's favourite area in England to visit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited July 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    In the North and Midlands and Scotland and Wales if you are on an average income then it is perfectly possible to get on the housing ladder and buy your own home by 30 as housing is so much cheaper.

    In London and the South East though unless you have very wealthy parents willing to lend you the money for a deposit or have a very high earning job in the City that is near impossible.

    Indeed at the 2019 general election the Tories actually got a higher voteshare in the East Midlands than the South East, 54.9% to 54.2% despite the South East traditionally being their best area

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    Notice who you have left out there? The South West, the forgotten cousin of English regions.
    I don't think anyone's forgotten about Cornwall, Devon, Bristol, etc. Most people's favourite area in England to visit.
    Except when making generalisations about regional comparisons!

    As a proud resident of etc, it does amuse.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    If you want to be a high earner and work in the City or have wealthy parents then living in London and the South East is fine.

    For average earners without wealthy parents however you are much more likely to be able to buy your own home now and have an affordable lifestyle up North, even if the transport links could do with improvement.

    There are plenty of town centres in the South which could do with improvement too, just a reflection of the shift of retail online
    Yes. Town centre improvements need to be less retail more community spaces and housing. Make them a nicer place to be. Pedestrianisation would help too.
    Simply doing up empty shops isn't the long-term answer.
    The problem is many towns are run by conservative, ageing folk who want on street parking and shops like it is 1975.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Seems to me the Govt have potentially massively screwed up their messaging on vaccines. Increasingly it’s looking like vaccines are not a restraint on positive tests in an asymptomatic testing environment. But they’ve been selling (or not actively countering) vaccines as a protection against infection not just illness. How high can reported positive tests go before they have a real problem of decline of public confidence in vaccines?

    Given how extensive the vaccine program is, it’s fortunately unlikely to have much impact at this stage.

    And if we can reopen safely without hundreds of thousands of deaths, because of vaccines, it will be forgotten.
    Not a massive problem in health terms maybe. Although it could have implications for booster programmes. Perhaps I should have said “decline in public confidence in the govt” rather than vaccines though.

    And I really think there needs to be some transparency on beta (some may disagree). I’m totally confused about whether the concern is that some or all vaccines are no good against it at all, or just against infection.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    HYUFD said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
    Farage is worth listening to. Those who he's allied himself with, substantially less so.

    He should be in the Lords.
    Farage is not establishment enough for the Lords
    Might be a hard sell to the faithful, though tbf they didn't seem to have a problem with years of Nigel taking a big salary & benefits from the EU.
    Perhaps he could do a Baroness Roof of Lundin Links and say he's going to drain the swamp by becoming the swamp.
    His problem is his base would see him as having sold out while the peers in the Lords would still see him as a jumped up oik
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    If you want to be a high earner and work in the City or have wealthy parents then living in London and the South East is fine.

    For average earners without wealthy parents however you are much more likely to be able to buy your own home now and have an affordable lifestyle up North, even if the transport links could do with improvement.

    There are plenty of town centres in the South which could do with improvement too, just a reflection of the shift of retail online
    Yes. Town centre improvements need to be less retail more community spaces and housing. Make them a nicer place to be. Pedestrianisation would help too.
    Simply doing up empty shops isn't the long-term answer.
    The problem is many towns are run by conservative, ageing folk who want on street parking and shops like it is 1975.
    As a town councillor we still want to support traditional shops, the butchers, bakers etc but yes we also have pushed more pedestrian areas as well and converting into flats where necessary and community gardens
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Seems to me the Govt have potentially massively screwed up their messaging on vaccines. Increasingly it’s looking like vaccines are not a restraint on positive tests in an asymptomatic testing environment. But they’ve been selling (or not actively countering) vaccines as a protection against infection not just illness. How high can reported positive tests go before they have a real problem of decline of public confidence in vaccines?

    Given how extensive the vaccine program is, it’s fortunately unlikely to have much impact at this stage.

    And if we can reopen safely without hundreds of thousands of deaths, because of vaccines, it will be forgotten.
    Yes, I think the die is essentially cast. Based on past experience, even if we went to a full lockdown tomorrow, it would take a while for the effect to be seen in cases.

    We just have to hope that the exit wave is brought under control through herd immunity at least as soon as that.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I'm starting to think we might need a lockdown. (We obviously shouldn't be lifting *all* restrictions right now).

    I read that SAGE advised current conditions are most likely to lead to vaccine escape. That would be a total disaster.

    That said - even if we lockdown... rest of developed world is not going to do so consistently.

    That said again... a vaccine resistant variant in say the US does not mean we need to import it (although with Johnson we probably will...).

    So overall I'm torn.
    Difficult decisions certainly.

    717 patients were admitted with Covid on the 12th. This follows 34,114 cases 7 days earlier on the 5th.

    If we compare to the wave last autumn we had a high of 31,510 cases on November 2nd, by which point we were already in lockdown 2. This lead to a maximum of 1,971 admissions later in the month.

    In the Christmas wave we went through 34,000 cases on December 14th, and by the 21st 2,367 Covid admissions were made to hospital.

    The schools closed in Scotland and cases are declining. The same will probably happen in England. Hopefully we'll vaccinate teenagers which will help in the autumn.

    So, the vaccines do work. The situation isn't great, and would have been better if quarantine had been introduced on India earlier. I'm exercising personal caution, but though I was an advocate of a zero Covid approach before vaccines had been approved, I think a government instruction to stay home now, or to close businesses, would not be a reasonable or proportionate response.
    Definitely the vaccines work now.

    The question is whether we are creating the conditions for them to not* work in future. Very hard to know -> but an appalling downside risk.

    If closing schools is all that's needed then we should have shut them a week or two early.

    Are cases truly falling in Scotland, or is there just less testing now schools are closed? Closing schools should make a big difference. Scotland is also sticking with masks I think?
    Yes, cases are truly falling in Scotland. We can be confident of this for two reasons.

    Firstly, the 7-day specimen rate peaked on 3rd July and has declined for 8 days to the latest figure on the 11th. The latest reporting date numbers have continued to decline. If it was just an effect from reduced testing you'd see a one-off drop in numbers and then a resumed rise from a lower base.

    Secondly, we can also see a reduction in the positivity rate, which you wouldn't see if the reduction in case numbers was solely due to reduced testing.

    On vaccine escape, it's a threat but due to the Delta variant it's unfortunately the case that the vaccines work well enough to prevent hospitalization and death, but not to create herd immunity and prevent onward transmission. So there isn't a way to open up without having more cases.

    Obviously if the virus does escape the vaccine, and so the fatality rate goes up again, everything changes, but it is perverse to act as though that has already happened before it does. It may not. There are good reasons to do with the nature of the virus to be reasonably confident it won't.

    Mask use is still mandated in Scotland, but I doubt that has more than a marginal impact given standards of mask-wearing.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660

    Guto Harri was the best presenter GB News had but he's been cancelled now because he doesn't say what they want to hear.

    Where are the freedom of speech brigade now?

    Wrong sort of Presenter?

    SKS has cancelled Socialist Jews who reckon they are the "wrong type of Jew"
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    The "Blue Wall" is Margaret Thatcher's final legacy to the Conservative Party.

    The economic, social and cultural policies instigated in the 1980s took time to percolate and put down roots but look at the constituency voting records in places like Wolverhampton SW and Nuneaton and the rise in the Conservative Party has been inexorable since 1997.

    It didn't happen with Brexit or the coming of Boris Johnson - the reduction of Labour in northern England and the Midlands began long before that with the emergence of aspirational politics (backed by plenty of Labour complacency).

    Inevitable? Perhaps but no more than happened further south earlier - the "suburbanisation" (my word, mine, all mine, not yours) of the midlands and northern England took time but it has happened.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,580
    alex_ said:

    Seems to me the Govt have potentially massively screwed up their messaging on vaccines. Increasingly it’s looking like vaccines are not a restraint on positive tests in an asymptomatic testing environment. But they’ve been selling (or not actively countering) vaccines as a protection against infection not just illness. How high can reported positive tests go before they have a real problem of decline of public confidence in vaccines?

    Isn't an issue the Delta variant? All through last year, we (*) held out for a vaccine. Any vaccine. Fortunately we got several good ones. Then came the Kent variant, and it turns out that the vaccines worked well against that, and the messaging was such. They're still good against Delta (and think of the mess we'd be in if we didn't have any vaccines), but not as good as they were.

    (*) Well, anyone sane.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Health Secretary Sajid Javid has tested positive for Covid-19; on Wednesday he visited a care home for a photo opportunity. https://twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1416379443602501633/photo/1
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    Seems to me the Govt have potentially massively screwed up their messaging on vaccines. Increasingly it’s looking like vaccines are not a restraint on positive tests in an asymptomatic testing environment. But they’ve been selling (or not actively countering) vaccines as a protection against infection not just illness. How high can reported positive tests go before they have a real problem of decline of public confidence in vaccines?

    Isn't an issue the Delta variant? All through last year, we (*) held out for a vaccine. Any vaccine. Fortunately we got several good ones. Then came the Kent variant, and it turns out that the vaccines worked well against that, and the messaging was such. They're still good against Delta (and think of the mess we'd be in if we didn't have any vaccines), but not as good as they were.

    (*) Well, anyone sane.
    I’m not saying there aren’t good reasons. But in presentational terms/messaging it feels like the Govt might have backed the wrong horse. And of course it filters through into policy with issues like self isolation for close contacts which is a massive problem if cases continue to rise (although I think the pingdemic may have had more to do with the football)
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904
    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    I have to say Clarkson's Farm is superb, by far the best thing he's done in many a year

    Isn’t it? Not only very entertaining but subtly educational. I learned more about farming in Britain in those few episodes than many years of countryfile.

    The same narrative arc and styling as a Top Gear special too, which is clearly a Clarkson hallmark: Clarkson has whacky idea; others warn him it’s mad; cue a series of slapstick disasters and set-piece fish out of water scenes; then a sudden change of mood as a big vista opens up, things start working like clockwork, and Clarkson’s voice takes on a tone of wonder.

    And also quite how much financial capital and hence risk there is in setting up in farming; he had to spend a lot of £ on attachments for his tractor.

    You can see why co-operatives work so well in France and Italy, collectively buying expensive kit and then renting it out to its members on a non-profit basis. Whereas UK and US farmers have to buy all their own stuff.
    Do they all really "have to" buy it on an individual basis? I would have thought British farmers would be quite capable of organising themselves into co-operative groups.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Having denied it and lied about it, they finally admit it in the 4th footnote of p.208 in a report slipped out on the day Boris Johnson made his big levelling up speech.

    So it would be awful if this admission were widely shared.

    https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1416373667936849925
    https://twitter.com/mirrorpolitics/status/1416334314699214850
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Scott_xP said:
    It would be quite amusing if it reveals who has and hasn’t deleted the app ;). (although I guess they might all be contacted by test and trace anyway...)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    Javid certainly looked like he had genuinely mild symptons in his vid rather than the "mild symptons"* Boris was talking about when he got corona.

    * Clearly weren't.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    So, set out to take the wife for her first visit to the States to see her family for two years, car broke down on the M26, she missed her flight. How’s everyone else’s day?

    Crap. Sorry to hear that. Hope all sorted now.
    Thanks Charles. She’s on a later flight so that’s taken care of. The car, on the other hand, is suffering some mystery issue beyond the diagnostic ability of the best trained mechanics round here,
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    The British Health Secretary - who’s fully vaccinated - has Covid-19. Cases now topping 50,000 a day. But on Monday, England relaxes most lockdown restrictions including obligatory mask wearing in public places. They’re calling it #FreedomDay - which it will be for the Virus.
    https://twitter.com/_alexforrest/status/1416388433946292230
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1416375392374513668
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Scott_xP said:
    Would be descending into farce if it wasn't descending into tragedy.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's been quite the week in the culture wars. One Tory insider told @Alain_Tolhurst No.10 was "obsessed" with red wall voters, but feared they had created a caricature and completely misjudged the national mood.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/wedged-in-how-the-culture-war-backfired-on-the-tories

    Yes, it seems that the stereotyping of the Red Wall as neanderthal bigots is at least as much a problem for the Tories as for elements of Labour.
    Not sure if it is 'at least as much' a problem for them, but it's certainly true the extent of the Red Wall has morphed in peoples' minds a bit, and it's homogenity of thought exaggerated. I think that cowardly (for not giving a name) insider is probably correct, as 'how will it play in the Red Wall?' seems to be the first and only question a lot of the time.

    As rottenborough notes it opens up opportunities particularly for the LDs, as we have seen. Sure, the Tory bedrock is probably solid enough for another election, but they are overdoing the love bombing of the Red Wall compared to elsewhere.
    The interesting thing is how little has actually been done for the Red Wall so far.

    Town funds and a bit of putative infrastructure.

    Anything else in serious amounts?
    Warm words/hot air.
    There's been a hurricane force of that.
    Since a great deal of the 'levelling up' will be infrastructure, it will take time. If they're serious about it, then it's a project for two decades or more.

    But some is being done: on the railways alone, you have the Ashington line which may open in 2024, and although it is not the north, the Okehampton line in rural Devon has been totally relaid and should open by the end of the year. It should be said that the latter is the easiest of easy reopenings: private services were running until recently.
    Mmm. Yes. The Ashington Line has been banged on about since the 90's. Planning has been since the early 10's. Under Labour, then Tory minority Council control. It's isn't really a Boris levelling up policy. They've just given it some funding.
    We are hamstrung here by being unable to reach any other part of the NE by rail without going through Newcastle.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    kinabalu said:

    https://twitter.com/GregClinker/status/1416304576530157571

    The kind of thing Labour has to contend with, how do they respond to comments like this?

    Yes, it was dispiriting listening to some of those people. But we have to work with the electorate as it is, I suppose, not how we'd like it to be.

    Within reason, that is. If somebody truly is of the fixed mindset that young people are congenitally lazy and need to be starved into work, do we actually want their vote? We probably don't because the sort of noises we'd have to make to get it will lose us many more - quite rightly since we'd have violated our core values.

    Leading Labour back to power. It's a tricky one, it really is. Glad it's Keir not me with the task.
    Maybe. But the big (only!) job of oppositions is to win the next election. They don't have to run the country as well. To do that you have to articulate clearly a significantly better set of policies, make a better retail offer to the voter, and demonstrate a greater ability than the government. You have the massive advantage that you don't have to deal with the impossible actuality of events right now, you can just explain how much better you would do. Mr A Blair did it well. the current circumstances are a gift to oppositions, in that it is especially difficult to do things right, and easy to look an idiot.

    Possibly Labour are the problem - maybe they can't do what oppositions have to do.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    So, set out to take the wife for her first visit to the States to see her family for two years, car broke down on the M26, she missed her flight. How’s everyone else’s day?

    What a bummer, hopefully there are later flights she can transfer to.
    Thanks Malc. We had to buy a whole new one but she’s on a later afternoon flight to Boston.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    GB News staff predicting Nigel Farage will take over the daily afternoon show on the channel from Simon McCoy. All speculative, but could result in Farage co-presenting with Alex Phillips - an ex-UKIP leader hosting a news show with balance provided by his former spokesperson.
    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1416379924286525440
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    edited July 2021
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's been quite the week in the culture wars. One Tory insider told @Alain_Tolhurst No.10 was "obsessed" with red wall voters, but feared they had created a caricature and completely misjudged the national mood.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/wedged-in-how-the-culture-war-backfired-on-the-tories

    Yes, it seems that the stereotyping of the Red Wall as neanderthal bigots is at least as much a problem for the Tories as for elements of Labour.
    Not sure if it is 'at least as much' a problem for them, but it's certainly true the extent of the Red Wall has morphed in peoples' minds a bit, and it's homogenity of thought exaggerated. I think that cowardly (for not giving a name) insider is probably correct, as 'how will it play in the Red Wall?' seems to be the first and only question a lot of the time.

    As rottenborough notes it opens up opportunities particularly for the LDs, as we have seen. Sure, the Tory bedrock is probably solid enough for another election, but they are overdoing the love bombing of the Red Wall compared to elsewhere.
    The interesting thing is how little has actually been done for the Red Wall so far.

    Town funds and a bit of putative infrastructure.

    Anything else in serious amounts?
    Warm words/hot air.
    There's been a hurricane force of that.
    Since a great deal of the 'levelling up' will be infrastructure, it will take time. If they're serious about it, then it's a project for two decades or more.

    But some is being done: on the railways alone, you have the Ashington line which may open in 2024, and although it is not the north, the Okehampton line in rural Devon has been totally relaid and should open by the end of the year. It should be said that the latter is the easiest of easy reopenings: private services were running until recently.
    Mmm. Yes. The Ashington Line has been banged on about since the 90's. Planning has been since the early 10's. Under Labour, then Tory minority Council control. It's isn't really a Boris levelling up policy. They've just given it some funding.
    We are hamstrung here by being unable to reach any other part of the NE by rail without going through Newcastle.
    Bring back Riccarton Junction. Rebuild the railway bridge to Annan across the Solway. And Haltwhistle to Alston.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    If you want to be a high earner and work in the City or have wealthy parents then living in London and the South East is fine.

    For average earners without wealthy parents however you are much more likely to be able to buy your own home now and have an affordable lifestyle up North, even if the transport links could do with improvement.

    There are plenty of town centres in the South which could do with improvement too, just a reflection of the shift of retail online
    Yes. Town centre improvements need to be less retail more community spaces and housing. Make them a nicer place to be. Pedestrianisation would help too.
    Simply doing up empty shops isn't the long-term answer.
    The problem is many towns are run by conservative, ageing folk who want on street parking and shops like it is 1975.
    As a town councillor we still want to support traditional shops, the butchers, bakers etc but yes we also have pushed more pedestrian areas as well and converting into flats where necessary and community gardens
    That is good news. One town next to me is doing similar. The other is fighting tooth and nail not to. And opposing any and every chainstore.
    And when I said conservative I meant small c. Labour are often even worse.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    kinabalu said:

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility for an intelligent person to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
    His enemies should play the footage of him swooning like a besotted school girl when Trump flew into town at every opportunity - his mystique would be utterly shot in the UK if that took hold in the public consciousness.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Pulpstar said:

    Javid certainly looked like he had genuinely mild symptons in his vid rather than the "mild symptons"* Boris was talking about when he got corona.

    * Clearly weren't.

    I was musing while out getting the Racing Post this morning where we would have been had the Delta variant been the dominant virus in March 2020 or where we would be now without vaccines.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited July 2021
    The very best bit of Clarkson's Farm comes right at the end, after plenty of other good bits.

    It's when Clarkson is asked if he'd like to do it all over again, rather than go back to London, and all the parties and fun. He seems to think about this genuinely, then he says "Yes, I would do it again, I am done with London and parties"


    His blonde, attractive, younger partner's crest-fallen face is quite the picture at this point: it screams "But I love London and parties", even as she tries to reassure him that he's made the correct decision. She looks miserable

    The producers must have noticed this, and yet they decided to keep it in. Clever and brave
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    alex_ said:

    Seems to me the Govt have potentially massively screwed up their messaging on vaccines. Increasingly it’s looking like vaccines are not a restraint on positive tests in an asymptomatic testing environment. But they’ve been selling (or not actively countering) vaccines as a protection against infection not just illness. How high can reported positive tests go before they have a real problem of decline of public confidence in vaccines?

    A 50% reduction in being infected is pretty good compared with the flu vaccine. Plus the much higher protection against symptomatic infection, hospitalization and death.

    Now perhaps the whiners will whine if they get infected.

    But its better that they do their whining after being vaccinated than not get vaccinated.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    edited July 2021

    alex_ said:

    Seems to me the Govt have potentially massively screwed up their messaging on vaccines. Increasingly it’s looking like vaccines are not a restraint on positive tests in an asymptomatic testing environment. But they’ve been selling (or not actively countering) vaccines as a protection against infection not just illness. How high can reported positive tests go before they have a real problem of decline of public confidence in vaccines?

    A 50% reduction in being infected is pretty good compared with the flu vaccine. Plus the much higher protection against symptomatic infection, hospitalization and death.

    Now perhaps the whiners will whine if they get infected.

    But its better that they do their whining after being vaccinated than not get vaccinated.
    People against the vaccines tend not to be the brightest. Probabilities and counterfactuals are generally beyond their tiny brains. In years past Javid might not even realise he had Covid, I doubt he'd be counted as a "case" if he was 'feeling a bit groggy' in the middle of the spanish flu for instance.
    Now he is a case, and he will self isolate because he knows he's a case but actually sick ? Minimally.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Leon said:

    The very best bit of Clarkson's Farm comes right at the end, after plenty of other good bits.

    It's when Clarkson is asked if he'd like to do it all over again, rather than go back to London, and all the parties and fun. He seems to think this about this genuinely. then he says "Yes, I would do it again, I am done with London and parties"


    His blonde, attractive, younger partner's crest-fallen face is quite the picture at this point: it screams "But I love London and parties", even as she tries to reassure him that he's made the correct decision. She looks miserable

    The producers must have noticed this, and yet they decided to keep it in. Clever and brave

    Immediately followed by the revelation that he is going to a party that night. In London...
  • Simon McCoy is off already? Come back to the BBC please, they'll have you back I am sure
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    The very best bit of Clarkson's Farm comes right at the end, after plenty of other good bits.

    It's when Clarkson is asked if he'd like to do it all over again, rather than go back to London, and all the parties and fun. He seems to think about this genuinely, then he says "Yes, I would do it again, I am done with London and parties"


    His blonde, attractive, younger partner's crest-fallen face is quite the picture at this point: it screams "But I love London and parties", even as she tries to reassure him that he's made the correct decision. She looks miserable

    The producers must have noticed this, and yet they decided to keep it in. Clever and brave

    I expect she would have been fine with London in the week and rural Oxfordshire at the weekend like so many wealthy Londoners but if he wants to be a real farmer full time rural Oxfordshire it has to be
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    https://twitter.com/GregClinker/status/1416304576530157571

    The kind of thing Labour has to contend with, how do they respond to comments like this?

    Yes, it was dispiriting listening to some of those people. But we have to work with the electorate as it is, I suppose, not how we'd like it to be.

    Within reason, that is. If somebody truly is of the fixed mindset that young people are congenitally lazy and need to be starved into work, do we actually want their vote? We probably don't because the sort of noises we'd have to make to get it will lose us many more - quite rightly since we'd have violated our core values.

    Leading Labour back to power. It's a tricky one, it really is. Glad it's Keir not me with the task.
    Maybe. But the big (only!) job of oppositions is to win the next election. They don't have to run the country as well. To do that you have to articulate clearly a significantly better set of policies, make a better retail offer to the voter, and demonstrate a greater ability than the government. You have the massive advantage that you don't have to deal with the impossible actuality of events right now, you can just explain how much better you would do. Mr A Blair did it well. the current circumstances are a gift to oppositions, in that it is especially difficult to do things right, and easy to look an idiot.

    Possibly Labour are the problem - maybe they can't do what oppositions have to do.
    We'll see over the next year. That's the acid test. Up to now - for Starmer - the circumstances have been anything but a gift. The pandemic has meant zero public appetite for listening to alternatives from Labour.
  • If Farage takes over, can we please forget this idea GB News is anything but a UK Fox News?

    And has Andrew Neil quit for good?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Pulpstar said:

    alex_ said:

    Seems to me the Govt have potentially massively screwed up their messaging on vaccines. Increasingly it’s looking like vaccines are not a restraint on positive tests in an asymptomatic testing environment. But they’ve been selling (or not actively countering) vaccines as a protection against infection not just illness. How high can reported positive tests go before they have a real problem of decline of public confidence in vaccines?

    A 50% reduction in being infected is pretty good compared with the flu vaccine. Plus the much higher protection against symptomatic infection, hospitalization and death.

    Now perhaps the whiners will whine if they get infected.

    But its better that they do their whining after being vaccinated than not get vaccinated.
    People against the vaccines tend not to be the brightest. Probabilities and counterfactuals are generally beyond their tiny brains. In years past Javid might not even realise he had Covid, I doubt he'd be counted as a "case" if he was 'feeling a bit groggy' in the middle of the spanish flu for instance.
    Now he is a case, and he will self isolate because he knows he's a case but actually sick ? Minimally.
    Maybe he hasn’t got it! Apparently this is a lateral flow result awaiting PCR confirmation.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Just discovered I can watch my youngest play an away 3rd XI division six South cricket game live on YouTube.
    Sadly after he was out.
    Utterly, utterly unimaginable even 10 years ago.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Pulpstar said:

    Javid certainly looked like he had genuinely mild symptons in his vid rather than the "mild symptons"* Boris was talking about when he got corona.

    * Clearly weren't.

    We must hope so. If he had to go to hospital with Covid having had his 2 jabs it would be a PR disaster.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The very best bit of Clarkson's Farm comes right at the end, after plenty of other good bits.

    It's when Clarkson is asked if he'd like to do it all over again, rather than go back to London, and all the parties and fun. He seems to think this about this genuinely. then he says "Yes, I would do it again, I am done with London and parties"


    His blonde, attractive, younger partner's crest-fallen face is quite the picture at this point: it screams "But I love London and parties", even as she tries to reassure him that he's made the correct decision. She looks miserable

    The producers must have noticed this, and yet they decided to keep it in. Clever and brave

    Immediately followed by the revelation that he is going to a party that night. In London...
    And yet you get the definite sense he is being truthful and he will spend the next year farming, as before

    This is probably the greatest achievement of the show, and also why it works: Clarkson appears sincere most of the time, indeed passionately so

    The worst bits of Top Gear and TGT were the most confected, insincere scenes (and the tedious interviews with celebrities, which he obviously disliked doing). Give him something he likes doing and really tries to do well, and he is naturally funny and watchable - and informative

    Like others here, I learned more about modern farming in 8 hours than I have done in the last 30 years, while being richly entertained
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Leon said:

    The very best bit of Clarkson's Farm comes right at the end, after plenty of other good bits.

    It's when Clarkson is asked if he'd like to do it all over again, rather than go back to London, and all the parties and fun. He seems to think about this genuinely, then he says "Yes, I would do it again, I am done with London and parties"

    His blonde, attractive, younger partner's crest-fallen face is quite the picture at this point: it screams "But I love London and parties", even as she tries to reassure him that he's made the correct decision. She looks miserable

    The producers must have noticed this, and yet they decided to keep it in. Clever and brave

    Has he managed to quit the cigarettes, do we know?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Fingers crossed


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility for an intelligent person to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
    His enemies should play the footage of him swooning like a besotted school girl when Trump flew into town at every opportunity - his mystique would be utterly shot in the UK if that took hold in the public consciousness.
    And when he threw himself into YMCA. That was a very tough watch indeed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Just as well that Javid was masked up when visiting a care home on Wednesday. If it were just a few days later...


    "Fantastic to visit Aashna House care home today. I’m not just the Health Secretary - I’m the Social Care Secretary too and I’m determined to do all I can for staff, residents and families across the country. https://t.co/VChWOXVs6R"

    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1415003992313237511?s=19
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    edited July 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Javid certainly looked like he had genuinely mild symptons in his vid rather than the "mild symptons"* Boris was talking about when he got corona.

    * Clearly weren't.

    We must hope so. If he had to go to hospital with Covid having had his 2 jabs it would be a PR disaster.
    Of course I can't tell the future and I put down his most likely pathology seeing as he is 51, not overweight, doesn't drink (I presume) and looks reasonably fit. OF course he might head south, which whilst we shouldn't extrapolate from one case..........................
    But yes the shit would hit the fan if he is taken to hospital as a err "precautionary measure"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    DougSeal said:

    Fingers crossed


    Mister Robert Smithson predicted that yesterday was The Peak in daily UK cases. I was fiercely skeptical, but if he has called it right - BRAVO
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Any number of southern and southeastern towns have some form of "regeneration" project going on.

    The problem is they were all conceived and started pre-Covid and were predicated on being able to attract both retail and commercial investment.

    Woking is a spectacular example of this - huge commercial office blocks which will likely have to be converted to residential and retail units which will never be let.

    The world has changed yet all we hear are the bleatings of commercial property owners trying to force people back to offices. One should be sympathetic - some of these are down to their last few billion.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    kinabalu said:

    Nige to GB News?

    'At 5pm today I will be making an announcement about a big career change. Watch this space.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9797765/Nigel-Farage-announce-big-career-change-today-speculation-mounts-set-join-GB-News.html

    Well, I would be shocked, I tell you, shocked if this happens.

    Fox News UK by end of the year. Chasing ratings by ending up as snarling, outrage TV that way was only ever going to be the model that worked imho.
    To be fair, didn't his show on LBC do surprisingly well? Then he overstepped the mark with BLM stuff and got the heave ho?
    You don't have to agree with Farage to see that he is charismatic and intelligent. That said, when he's been on panels before, he can sometimes visibly lose interest when not speaking.
    Through gritted teeth - but yes, true. I had some regard for him at one time despite being contra his politics. The scales fell from my eyes when he started Trumping. It's a scientific impossibility for an intelligent person to combine ardent support for the Big Orange with any sort of human decency.
    His enemies should play the footage of him swooning like a besotted school girl when Trump flew into town at every opportunity - his mystique would be utterly shot in the UK if that took hold in the public consciousness.
    Not necessarily, 13% of British voters wanted Trump to beat Biden and that 13% of Leave voting, Boris and Trump lovers is GB news' core target audience (and likely significantly overlaps with the 13% who voted for Farage's UKIP in 2015)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2020/10/08/europe-wants-joe-biden-beat-donald-trump
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,297

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I'm starting to think we might need a lockdown. (We obviously shouldn't be lifting *all* restrictions right now).

    I read that SAGE advised current conditions are most likely to lead to vaccine escape. That would be a total disaster.

    That said - even if we lockdown... rest of developed world is not going to do so consistently.

    That said again... a vaccine resistant variant in say the US does not mean we need to import it (although with Johnson we probably will...).

    So overall I'm torn.
    Difficult decisions certainly.

    717 patients were admitted with Covid on the 12th. This follows 34,114 cases 7 days earlier on the 5th.

    If we compare to the wave last autumn we had a high of 31,510 cases on November 2nd, by which point we were already in lockdown 2. This lead to a maximum of 1,971 admissions later in the month.

    In the Christmas wave we went through 34,000 cases on December 14th, and by the 21st 2,367 Covid admissions were made to hospital.

    The schools closed in Scotland and cases are declining. The same will probably happen in England. Hopefully we'll vaccinate teenagers which will help in the autumn.

    So, the vaccines do work. The situation isn't great, and would have been better if quarantine had been introduced on India earlier. I'm exercising personal caution, but though I was an advocate of a zero Covid approach before vaccines had been approved, I think a government instruction to stay home now, or to close businesses, would not be a reasonable or proportionate response.
    Definitely the vaccines work now.

    The question is whether we are creating the conditions for them to not* work in future. Very hard to know -> but an appalling downside risk.

    If closing schools is all that's needed then we should have shut them a week or two early.

    Are cases truly falling in Scotland, or is there just less testing now schools are closed? Closing schools should make a big difference. Scotland is also sticking with masks I think?
    Yes, cases are truly falling in Scotland. We can be confident of this for two reasons.

    Firstly, the 7-day specimen rate peaked on 3rd July and has declined for 8 days to the latest figure on the 11th. The latest reporting date numbers have continued to decline. If it was just an effect from reduced testing you'd see a one-off drop in numbers and then a resumed rise from a lower base.

    Secondly, we can also see a reduction in the positivity rate, which you wouldn't see if the reduction in case numbers was solely due to reduced testing.

    On vaccine escape, it's a threat but due to the Delta variant it's unfortunately the case that the vaccines work well enough to prevent hospitalization and death, but not to create herd immunity and prevent onward transmission. So there isn't a way to open up without having more cases.

    Obviously if the virus does escape the vaccine, and so the fatality rate goes up again, everything changes, but it is perverse to act as though that has already happened before it does. It may not. There are good reasons to do with the nature of the virus to be reasonably confident it won't.

    Mask use is still mandated in Scotland, but I doubt that has more than a marginal impact given standards of mask-wearing.
    Thanks for the reply. I think your point on positivity is convincing. But as I understand it, more cases in a partially vaccinated population -> more risk of vaccine escape. Potentially there is a case for keeping some restrictions just to reduce that risk.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fingers crossed


    Mister Robert Smithson predicted that yesterday was The Peak in daily UK cases. I was fiercely skeptical, but if he has called it right - BRAVO
    Zoe’s been good overall since June but past performance and all that…
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited July 2021

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I’ve done a lot of reading on “Levelling Up” in the past week.

    Boris seems - as far as I can tell - passionate about the topic, and his boffins have figured out the the right policy shape.

    He has also appointed Neil O’Brien - MP for Harborough to champion - and Neil apparently has a good reputation. A proper white paper is due in the Autumn.

    The problem is going to be delivery, since;

    1. The cabinet are not all aligned. Particularly, he has strong Thatcherites in the key posts of Treasury and BEIS.

    2. To this properly *does* involve considerable investment. Given govt finances, that does raise a question of where this is to come from.
    2a. Traditional Tories suspect it must come “from the South”.

    3. In essence, the need is to invest in Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool. There is no electoral benefit to the Tories in doing so.

    4. The governance reforms necessary do not carry support in the Tory shires.
    4a. Spending is one thing, but the Treasury would rather eat dirt than see money actually *devolved*.

    my fear is that this aint gonna happen.

    I'd have some confidence Leveling Up was more than a soundbite if the pretence that it won't disadvantage wealthy areas were dropped. You can't improve the relative prospects of the North cf the South without reducing the relative prospects of the South cf the North. This is not to say it's a zero sum game - it doesn't have to be in absolute terms - but "leveling" implies a focus on relativities and this IS a zero sum game.

    So I'll be listening out for some squeals from Surrey and if I hear them - and they're loud enough - this will indicate to me that Johnson is indeed hell bent on improving the lot of working class people in the sorts of places I grew up in. In which case good on him and although I could never vote for a Tory I might start calling him Boris.
    I know a working class lad from South Yorkshire, left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship, now 20 and a qualified welder. No student debt and buying a house.

    I wonder how many middle class kids from Surrey could do likewise.

    Perhaps C&A was your 'squeal from Surrey' - well Buckinghamshire though the Conservatives did much better in the local elections there than in Surrey.

    Though whether they're squealing about unaffordable housing or too many houses being built I don't know.
    So you don't think there's a need to prioritize the North? - Is the point you're making?
    The North is a big place and different factors apply to different demographics and different parts.

    But if you're an average person with an average family and an average job who wants an average house and an average life then I'd say most of the North will be more suitable for you than most of the South and in particular London (a place of extremes not averages).

    Of course prioritization can mean different things - housing isn't, on general, a northern problem whereas more money spent on transport (which means roads in the north not trains) and redeveloping town centres would be better.

    And I'm happy for you southerners to maintain your 'grim up north' views if it allows more money to be spent there.
    So that's a yes to my question. Fair enough. I can understand a person who lives up there and likes it getting pissed off with negative stereotypes of what the North is all about. But speaking personally, I had to leave to snaffle a high status, white collar career. Welding is fine but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earning big money (and preferably legally) without getting your hands dirty. Without doing anything more taxing than pressing a key on a phone. The opportunities in those areas were all down here. London and environs. I doubt this is changed. If it has, great, but I really doubt it. I'd have heard about it.
    Certainly there's more chance of getting a £100k job in London than anywhere else.

    But the chances of anyone close to the average getting one is effectively sod all - that sort of money is made by the highly skilled and highly driven or those with a highly privileged background.

    Now if you want a £40k, £50k or £60k job in the North that's a different story. Maybe not much money to some in North London but then a house in Barnsley costs a lot less than one in Barnet.
    2 things though:

    Power & Influence. This comes from high status jobs and professions not from just doing ok.

    Wealth. Those pricey properties in the South accumulate it. The cheap ones up North don't.
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