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In the betting it’s about evens that BoJo will re-introduce restrictions by the end of the year – po

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  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited July 2021

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Amber Plus / Magenta category? Yeah, that will help.
    Magenta Plus? :lol:
    The sensible thing to do in first place was not red amber green but red and green. What we would have discovered is things moved too quickly, green to red in particular, so it needed a “green on watchlist”. Anything beyond that isn’t keeping the message simple enough and by same token fair enough?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,746
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    Fuck em. Take holidays. I did

    The virus will never be *gone*
    If you can live with the various hoops you have to go through that's okay. What bugs me is the constant moaning (mainly from the media to be fair) about the rapid changes in the regs.
    It is a pain, but I did it.

    I think it added about £250 to the cost of my working holibobs in Majorca. On the other hand hotels are half price and restaurants are desperate - you can get bargains. Likewise airports are a bit chaotic but some notorious queues have disappeared. Maybe it evens out

    I see absolutely no problem with taking a holiday if you follow the rules and do the tests. That's what they are there for
    You would concede though that you very slightly added to the chance that the vaccine might spread by doing so though I presume?

    Personally I am choosing not to travel. Killing me. However I'd be uncomfortable if I found myself in foreign clmes in much the same I'm now uncomfortable at home. Holidays aren't about uncomfortable. I plan to save the enjoyment for the future.

    I have wrestled with this as I have friends abroad and on the face of it , it seems like it would be easy to go and see them. But the holiday could get completely screwed up by a positive coronavirus test and it could either be aborted or turn in to a very expensive form of house arrest. In the end I just stuck with the UK.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    Fuck em. Take holidays. I did

    The virus will never be *gone*
    If you can live with the various hoops you have to go through that's okay. What bugs me is the constant moaning (mainly from the media to be fair) about the rapid changes in the regs.
    It is a pain, but I did it.

    I think it added about £250 to the cost of my working holibobs in Majorca. On the other hand hotels are half price and restaurants are desperate - you can get bargains. Likewise airports are a bit chaotic but some notorious queues have disappeared. Maybe it evens out

    I see absolutely no problem with taking a holiday if you follow the rules and do the tests. That's what they are there for
    You would concede though that you very slightly added to the chance that the vaccine might spread by doing so though I presume?

    Personally I am choosing not to travel. Killing me. However I'd be uncomfortable if I found myself in foreign clmes in much the same I'm now uncomfortable at home. Holidays aren't about uncomfortable. I plan to save the enjoyment for the future.
    I travelled alone. I tested thrice

    A PCR before - negative

    An antigen two days before returning - negative

    Another PCR after landing - negative

    I must have been the safest possible traveller in the history of vacations. So, no, I don't think I added to the chance the "vaccine" - "virus"? - might spread.

    We have to get a grip on the concept of "acceptable risk". Life from now on is going to be riskier. That's all there is to it. But we deal with acceptable risk all the time, when you walk the city street, climb in a car, embark on a plane journey, eat oysters. Etc
    I concede all those points. However it is spreading, and no doubt some of the spreaders could make the same arguments as you've done.

    My acceptable risk is I suspect much like yours, but it is the case that our personal acceptable risk is actually now everyone elses implied risk.

    I'd not criticise you on this at all.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    I think that is a pretty reasonable summary and one I am onboard with although probably with slight reservations as is normal in these circumstance.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922



    For the most part they're not fully protected before they've refused the vaccine.

    I give up. Even when faced with incontrovertible proof that this is false, you persist in repeating it because you are desperate for it to be true.
    lol. It wasn't that long ago that Philip kept insisting we had reached "herd immunity", which we all wish were true, but anyone with the slightest modicum of scientific understanding knew to be nonsense.
    We have, in over 90% of adults there are antibodies.

    That's not to say there can't be any cases and as I said at the time the virus needs to fill in the gaps with antivaxxers naturally now. It is doing that exactly as I said.
    Whilst defending you on the other argument I have to agree with Nigel on this. There is no evidence we have yet reached herd immunity. I wish it were the case but once has to be realistic.
    The presence of antivodies is nothing to do with near-guaranteed protection (I do think that double vaccination is a reasonable assurance). A colleague in her 30s with one vaccination weeks ago and no underlying conditions is very seriously ill.
    My daughter has had one jab and contracted the virus 10 days ago. Even given her age (20), fitness (good) and lack of underlying conditions it was still enough to make her pretty unwell although thankfully not enough for hospitalisation.
    Hope she makes a speedy recovery.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    I'm wondering if this increasingly complex and constantly shifting pattern of rules is actually the Government's preferred method of prohibiting foreign travel?

    You don't simply kill it off, you create about 63 different alert levels, shift from one random level to another at unpredictable times for every individual country, and leave travellers, travel agents, insurers, airlines and everyone else entirely clueless as to what the rules are each day and what they're meant to do to comply with them. Not to mention the fact that your destination being suddenly shifted into one of the variety of higher levels (Red, Ultramarine, Beige, Burnt Sienna, Violet or Black) whilst you are actually abroad means that you have 24 hours to get home, or you have to pay for some species of accommodation for two weeks upon return. Usually at an airport hotel, except for Violet (where it's a suite in Claridges for three weeks,) or Burnt Sienna (where you don't pay at all, but instead receive a six month custodial prison sentence.)

    Thus, travel is still allowed in theory but is rendered impossible in practice, and Boris Johnson is spared having to call a press conference where he cancels everyone's sunshine holidays.
    The imprimatur of Shapps.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    Fuck em. Take holidays. I did

    The virus will never be *gone*
    If you can live with the various hoops you have to go through that's okay. What bugs me is the constant moaning (mainly from the media to be fair) about the rapid changes in the regs.
    It is a pain, but I did it.

    I think it added about £250 to the cost of my working holibobs in Majorca. On the other hand hotels are half price and restaurants are desperate - you can get bargains. Likewise airports are a bit chaotic but some notorious queues have disappeared. Maybe it evens out

    I see absolutely no problem with taking a holiday if you follow the rules and do the tests. That's what they are there for
    You would concede though that you very slightly added to the chance that the vaccine might spread by doing so though I presume?

    Personally I am choosing not to travel. Killing me. However I'd be uncomfortable if I found myself in foreign clmes in much the same I'm now uncomfortable at home. Holidays aren't about uncomfortable. I plan to save the enjoyment for the future.
    I travelled alone. I tested thrice

    A PCR before - negative

    An antigen two days before returning - negative

    Another PCR after landing - negative

    I must have been the safest possible traveller in the history of vacations. So, no, I don't think I added to the chance the "vaccine" - "virus"? - might spread.

    We have to get a grip on the concept of "acceptable risk". Life from now on is going to be riskier. That's all there is to it. But we deal with acceptable risk all the time, when you walk the city street, climb in a car, embark on a plane journey, eat oysters. Etc
    A double jabbed person who has had multiple PCR tests is probably more likely to kill another Brit via an undiagnosed influenza infection, than they are via Covid.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    darkage said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    Fuck em. Take holidays. I did

    The virus will never be *gone*
    If you can live with the various hoops you have to go through that's okay. What bugs me is the constant moaning (mainly from the media to be fair) about the rapid changes in the regs.
    It is a pain, but I did it.

    I think it added about £250 to the cost of my working holibobs in Majorca. On the other hand hotels are half price and restaurants are desperate - you can get bargains. Likewise airports are a bit chaotic but some notorious queues have disappeared. Maybe it evens out

    I see absolutely no problem with taking a holiday if you follow the rules and do the tests. That's what they are there for
    You would concede though that you very slightly added to the chance that the vaccine might spread by doing so though I presume?

    Personally I am choosing not to travel. Killing me. However I'd be uncomfortable if I found myself in foreign clmes in much the same I'm now uncomfortable at home. Holidays aren't about uncomfortable. I plan to save the enjoyment for the future.

    I have wrestled with this as I have friends abroad and on the face of it , it seems like it would be easy to go and see them. But the holiday could get completely screwed up by a positive coronavirus test and it could either be aborted or turn in to a very expensive form of house arrest. In the end I just stuck with the UK.
    I really dont understand all the debate about this

    Vaccines work or they dont.

    Doesn't actually matter which we cant continue lock down purely on economic grounds. Another 3 months of lockdown will finish most of tourism and hospitality. We now have to just live with it
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    The problem is Delta - somewhat to my surprise it looked as if the vaccines were holding Alpha. But with the R for Delta, only a Chinese style lockdown... *might* hold it.

    So any measure short of that just flatten the curve. It will get where it is going, eventually... So what is the advantage of flattening the curve, if you don't think the hospitals will be overwhelmed?
    To answer that question. The fear of NHS collapsing removed by vaccines. To a large extend individual fear of ICU and death removed by vaccine. But what not removed is fear of long term impairment, such as no taste or smell returning?

    It’s fair enough there is still grounds for fear?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    Leon said:


    I travelled alone. I tested thrice

    A PCR before - negative

    An antigen two days before returning - negative

    Another PCR after landing - negative

    I must have been the safest possible traveller in the history of vacations. So, no, I don't think I added to the chance the "vaccine" - "virus"? - might spread.

    We have to get a grip on the concept of "acceptable risk". Life from now on is going to be riskier. That's all there is to it. But we deal with acceptable risk all the time, when you walk the city street, climb in a car, embark on a plane journey, eat oysters. Etc

    Of course but there's a nasty little undercurrent developing against those who choose (as is their right) to be more risk averse.

    I fear we will see instances of abuse and violence against those who continue to wear masks as the "free" majority expresses itself.

    Your experience in Majorca, apart from the gratuitous quaffing and scoffing, echoes my brother's in Tenerife.

    The ludicrous and confusing regulations on self-isolation have undoubtedly compromised this summer for the tourist industry - Mrs Stodge and I are booked to travel in the autumn. To be honest, I am cautiously optimistic.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    I think that is a pretty reasonable summary and one I am onboard with although probably with slight reservations as is normal in these circumstance.
    I'm simply amazed that other countries haven't closed their borders to UK travelers given this rather wild experiment. If I'd been in charge of (say) France (Emperor Omnium) then I'd have closed the borders in 10 seconds.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    edited July 2021
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    Fuck em. Take holidays. I did

    The virus will never be *gone*
    If you can live with the various hoops you have to go through that's okay. What bugs me is the constant moaning (mainly from the media to be fair) about the rapid changes in the regs.
    It is a pain, but I did it.

    I think it added about £250 to the cost of my working holibobs in Majorca. On the other hand hotels are half price and restaurants are desperate - you can get bargains. Likewise airports are a bit chaotic but some notorious queues have disappeared. Maybe it evens out

    I see absolutely no problem with taking a holiday if you follow the rules and do the tests. That's what they are there for
    You would concede though that you very slightly added to the chance that the vaccine might spread by doing so though I presume?

    Personally I am choosing not to travel. Killing me. However I'd be uncomfortable if I found myself in foreign clmes in much the same I'm now uncomfortable at home. Holidays aren't about uncomfortable. I plan to save the enjoyment for the future.
    I travelled alone. I tested thrice

    A PCR before - negative

    An antigen two days before returning - negative

    Another PCR after landing - negative

    I must have been the safest possible traveller in the history of vacations. So, no, I don't think I added to the chance the "vaccine" - "virus"? - might spread.

    We have to get a grip on the concept of "acceptable risk". Life from now on is going to be riskier. That's all there is to it. But we deal with acceptable risk all the time, when you walk the city street, climb in a car, embark on a plane journey, eat oysters. Etc
    I concede all those points. However it is spreading, and no doubt some of the spreaders could make the same arguments as you've done.

    My acceptable risk is I suspect much like yours, but it is the case that our personal acceptable risk is actually now everyone elses implied risk.

    I'd not criticise you on this at all.
    Remember also that I am double-jabbed, and my second dose was 8 weeks ago.

    I am one of the least likely carriers around, many times tested, double jabbed, live alone, don't go to nightclubs.

    And if you go to Mallorca, as I did, you spend all your time outdoors in the lovely sun - every communal human moment is al fresco, if you meet people for lunch it is always outdoors

    The closest I came to dying was a mad taxi driver from Palma airport who tried to overtake in a tunnel

    As I said, we must learn to live with risk and with a new endemic disease, rather like a nasty flu with creepy side-effects. But we have vaccines, and improving treatments

    Life is not over, but it is different, and we will have somewhat different holidays for a while - but we will have holidays

    Next stop for me, Georgia, in the caucasus - if I can
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Plenty of away fans at Trent Bridge tonight.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    gealbhan said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    The problem is Delta - somewhat to my surprise it looked as if the vaccines were holding Alpha. But with the R for Delta, only a Chinese style lockdown... *might* hold it.

    So any measure short of that just flatten the curve. It will get where it is going, eventually... So what is the advantage of flattening the curve, if you don't think the hospitals will be overwhelmed?
    To answer that question. The fear of NHS collapsing removed by vaccines. To a large extend individual fear of ICU and death removed by vaccine. But what not removed is fear of long term impairment, such as no taste or smell returning?

    It’s fair enough there is still grounds for fear?
    So you might argue that you wait until, say the second jabs catch up with the first. But then what? - the same number of people will end up going to hospital, dying etc, after that, whether you slow the process down with measures or "let rip"
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1416072636300283904

    “At this point, you are either vaccinated or you are going to catch Delta.
    And whether you are young adult or old, when you catch Delta unvaccinated, you will have the highest chance of being hospitalized compared to almost any disease you have caught in your life.”
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    Omnium said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    I think that is a pretty reasonable summary and one I am onboard with although probably with slight reservations as is normal in these circumstance.
    I'm simply amazed that other countries haven't closed their borders to UK travelers given this rather wild experiment. If I'd been in charge of (say) France (Emperor Omnium) then I'd have closed the borders in 10 seconds.

    And yet we are the ones closing our border with France. Funny old world.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    DougSeal said:

    https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1416072636300283904

    “At this point, you are either vaccinated or you are going to catch Delta.
    And whether you are young adult or old, when you catch Delta unvaccinated, you will have the highest chance of being hospitalized compared to almost any disease you have caught in your life.”

    Yup. Exactly.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited July 2021

    gealbhan said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    The problem is Delta - somewhat to my surprise it looked as if the vaccines were holding Alpha. But with the R for Delta, only a Chinese style lockdown... *might* hold it.

    So any measure short of that just flatten the curve. It will get where it is going, eventually... So what is the advantage of flattening the curve, if you don't think the hospitals will be overwhelmed?
    To answer that question. The fear of NHS collapsing removed by vaccines. To a large extend individual fear of ICU and death removed by vaccine. But what not removed is fear of long term impairment, such as no taste or smell returning?

    It’s fair enough there is still grounds for fear?
    So you might argue that you wait until, say the second jabs catch up with the first. But then what? - the same number of people will end up going to hospital, dying etc, after that, whether you slow the process down with measures or "let rip"
    I think for vast majority of people, vaccines have taken away fear of getting it. But for a large minority/small majority the high rates are on their mind, and they just don’t fancy getting it.

    “Living with Covid” doesn’t mean excepting getting it anytime soon does it? Nor does the phrase “living with Covid” mean no one should not take measures they want to avoid it, face masks, avoiding holidays, avoiding crowds, everyone is allowed that freedom for their fear to unwind at their own pace?

    Or am I a wuss? Vote now.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,746
    DougSeal said:

    https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1416072636300283904

    “At this point, you are either vaccinated or you are going to catch Delta.
    And whether you are young adult or old, when you catch Delta unvaccinated, you will have the highest chance of being hospitalized compared to almost any disease you have caught in your life.”

    'almost'
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Paging @HYUFD:

    Los Angeles is reimposing an indoor masks mandate from midnight Saturday.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    France has a tenth of the number of cases than the UK. Most of France’s beta variants are located on Reunion island. Off South Africa. Amazing
    https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/1416134739535224838

    MAIL: French holiday chaos #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1416133915442548736/photo/1


  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    Fuck em. Take holidays. I did

    The virus will never be *gone*
    If you can live with the various hoops you have to go through that's okay. What bugs me is the constant moaning (mainly from the media to be fair) about the rapid changes in the regs.
    Worse than the Pegasus fan on a Sea Harrier spooling up. Memorable accompaniments of visits to the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton, the latter I mean.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
    Sarah Gilbert has done amazing things this pandemic inventing the Ox vaccine and all but her comments about vaccinating the world before UK kids are properly dangerous virtue signalling. Biden is vaxxing USA 12+, so is France - the virus isn't really around that much in plenty of African countries.
    Are we really going to let UK kids suffer potential long term ill health on the altar of wokeness ?!

    As an aside, people in my company are off to France for work reasons. Gov't is fucking us over.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1416072636300283904

    “At this point, you are either vaccinated or you are going to catch Delta.
    And whether you are young adult or old, when you catch Delta unvaccinated, you will have the highest chance of being hospitalized compared to almost any disease you have caught in your life.”

    'almost'
    Fair enough.

    Cranial cysticercosis.

    Ebola.

    Andf so on.

    How common are they on the streets of Epping?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_xP said:

    France has a tenth of the number of cases than the UK. Most of France’s beta variants are located on Reunion island. Off South Africa. Amazing
    https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/1416134739535224838

    MAIL: French holiday chaos #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1416133915442548736/photo/1


    Reacting too fast to a variant, bad. Reacting too slow to a variant, bad.

    OK.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Double-vaccinated Britons returning from France will not be exempt from quarantine from Monday 🇫🇷

    - All arrivals must self-isolate for 10-days (or 5 under Test to Release)
    - Industry describe decision as a "hammer blow to consumer confidence"

    #ttot #travel #France

    https://twitter.com/benclatworthy/status/1416113868783464456

    Why is it always a “hammer blow”

    Can’t someone use a buzzsaw for a change?
    Also kind of undermines the meaning of hammer blow if there is any form of tourism industry after this is all over.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1416072636300283904

    “At this point, you are either vaccinated or you are going to catch Delta.
    And whether you are young adult or old, when you catch Delta unvaccinated, you will have the highest chance of being hospitalized compared to almost any disease you have caught in your life.”

    'almost'
    I think that's referring to the fact that most people have not caught anything worse than influenza.

    For people who've caught meningitis in the past, well... that was probably worse.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    Fuck em. Take holidays. I did

    The virus will never be *gone*
    If you can live with the various hoops you have to go through that's okay. What bugs me is the constant moaning (mainly from the media to be fair) about the rapid changes in the regs.
    It is a pain, but I did it.

    I think it added about £250 to the cost of my working holibobs in Majorca. On the other hand hotels are half price and restaurants are desperate - you can get bargains. Likewise airports are a bit chaotic but some notorious queues have disappeared. Maybe it evens out

    I see absolutely no problem with taking a holiday if you follow the rules and do the tests. That's what they are there for
    You would concede though that you very slightly added to the chance that the vaccine might spread by doing so though I presume?

    Personally I am choosing not to travel. Killing me. However I'd be uncomfortable if I found myself in foreign clmes in much the same I'm now uncomfortable at home. Holidays aren't about uncomfortable. I plan to save the enjoyment for the future.
    I travelled alone. I tested thrice

    A PCR before - negative

    An antigen two days before returning - negative

    Another PCR after landing - negative

    I must have been the safest possible traveller in the history of vacations. So, no, I don't think I added to the chance the "vaccine" - "virus"? - might spread.

    We have to get a grip on the concept of "acceptable risk". Life from now on is going to be riskier. That's all there is to it. But we deal with acceptable risk all the time, when you walk the city street, climb in a car, embark on a plane journey, eat oysters. Etc
    I concede all those points. However it is spreading, and no doubt some of the spreaders could make the same arguments as you've done.

    My acceptable risk is I suspect much like yours, but it is the case that our personal acceptable risk is actually now everyone elses implied risk.

    I'd not criticise you on this at all.
    Remember also that I am double-jabbed, and my second dose was 8 weeks ago.

    I am one of the least likely carriers around, many times tested, double jabbed, live alone, don't go to nightclubs.

    And if you go to Mallorca, as I did, you spend all your time outdoors in the lovely sun - every communal human moment is al fresco, if you meet people for lunch it is always outdoors

    The closest I came to dying was a mad taxi driver from Palma airport who tried to overtake in a tunnel

    As I said, we must learn to live with risk and with a new endemic disease, rather like a nasty flu with creepy side-effects. But we have vaccines, and improving treatments

    Life is not over, but it is different, and we will have somewhat different holidays for a while - but we will have holidays

    Next stop for me, Georgia, in the caucasus - if I can
    Are you a FSU tank enthusiast?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    RobD said:

    Reacting too fast to a variant, bad. Reacting too slow to a variant, bad.

    OK.

    If BoZo hadn't declared "freedom day" this would have neither too slow nor too fast.

    Data not dates...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    France has a tenth of the number of cases than the UK. Most of France’s beta variants are located on Reunion island. Off South Africa. Amazing
    https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/1416134739535224838

    MAIL: French holiday chaos #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1416133915442548736/photo/1


    Reacting too fast to a variant, bad. Reacting too slow to a variant, bad.

    OK.
    The variant isn't in what most people think of as France, it's only on the technicality that France is the largest (By flight time) country on earth that this has arisen. It'd be like basing UK policy on the British Virgin islands.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: People going to France will have to quarantine on return even if they are double jabbed

    France is not on the “red” list

    Instead they’ve in effect invented a new category. Again.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416116382182297603/photo/1

    I wonder what we should call the thing in between Amber and Red? Amber plus? Amber minus? Orange? Ochre?

    Going abroad under current circumstances, unless it is urgent and unavoidable, is bonkers - but it really would aid the welfare of those foolhardy enough (unless they're able to afford and willing to risk the threat of quarantine) to make leisure trips regardless, if this hopeless Government were simply to say "do not go on foreign holidays." But it's much like this ridiculous pantomime with the masks, where they're doing away with mandates and then applauding train companies and other businesses if they impose mandates. Up the proverbial without a paddle.
    I’m off to California in a couple of weeks 😃😃
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
    Ah. The Johnson Sr excuse.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    DougSeal said:

    https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1416072636300283904

    “At this point, you are either vaccinated or you are going to catch Delta.
    And whether you are young adult or old, when you catch Delta unvaccinated, you will have the highest chance of being hospitalized compared to almost any disease you have caught in your life.”

    I dont think anywhere in the world has seen even half of all people catch covid. Isnt this a gross over simplification and exaggeration? Are the unvaccinated even odds on to catch covid in the next 3 months, let alone it being a near certainty? I doubt it but open to persuasion if anyone believes that is correct?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Amber Plus / Magenta category? Yeah, that will help.
    Magenta Plus? :lol:
    Meganta Devine
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    TELEGRAPH: Holidays to France thrown into chaos #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1416137384412987393/photo/1


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1416072636300283904

    “At this point, you are either vaccinated or you are going to catch Delta.
    And whether you are young adult or old, when you catch Delta unvaccinated, you will have the highest chance of being hospitalized compared to almost any disease you have caught in your life.”

    'almost'
    I think that's referring to the fact that most people have not caught anything worse than influenza.

    For people who've caught meningitis in the past, well... that was probably worse.
    I've mucked out stalls and moved house with the flu, sepsis saw me in the hospital mind.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    DougSeal said:

    https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1416072636300283904

    “At this point, you are either vaccinated or you are going to catch Delta.
    And whether you are young adult or old, when you catch Delta unvaccinated, you will have the highest chance of being hospitalized compared to almost any disease you have caught in your life.”

    I dont think anywhere in the world has seen even half of all people catch covid. Isnt this a gross over simplification and exaggeration? Are the unvaccinated even odds on to catch covid in the next 3 months, let alone it being a near certainty? I doubt it but open to persuasion if anyone believes that is correct?
    Only a third of people got Spanish flu in the end. Might end up higher if it's more transmissible.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    THE TIMES: French holidays in chaos #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1416137703637360645/photo/1


  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited July 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    France has a tenth of the number of cases than the UK. Most of France’s beta variants are located on Reunion island. Off South Africa. Amazing
    https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/1416134739535224838

    MAIL: French holiday chaos #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1416133915442548736/photo/1


    Reacting too fast to a variant, bad. Reacting too slow to a variant, bad.

    OK.
    The variant isn't in what most people think of as France, it's only on the technicality that France is the largest (By flight time) country on earth that this has arisen. It'd be like basing UK policy on the British Virgin islands.
    This article says 5% of cases in metropolitan France are the beta variant.

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/UK-reviewing-red-list-for-France-Does-the-Covid-data-support-this

    edit: confusing my articles.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    The Clown Collective in Downing Street do seem to have a managed a clean sweep of front pages.

    Trebles all round...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    RobD said:

    DougSeal said:

    https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1416072636300283904

    “At this point, you are either vaccinated or you are going to catch Delta.
    And whether you are young adult or old, when you catch Delta unvaccinated, you will have the highest chance of being hospitalized compared to almost any disease you have caught in your life.”

    I dont think anywhere in the world has seen even half of all people catch covid. Isnt this a gross over simplification and exaggeration? Are the unvaccinated even odds on to catch covid in the next 3 months, let alone it being a near certainty? I doubt it but open to persuasion if anyone believes that is correct?
    Only a third of people got Spanish flu in the end. Might end up higher if it's more transmissible.
    Spanish flu wasn't as fundamentally transmissible as delta I think ?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    What a century by Liam Livingstone!

    Fastest ever T20 century by an English player 42 balls.

    But out next ball. :(
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Amber Plus / Magenta category? Yeah, that will help.
    I once got a paper graded as “alpha double minus query beta triple plus”
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Charles said:

    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: People going to France will have to quarantine on return even if they are double jabbed

    France is not on the “red” list

    Instead they’ve in effect invented a new category. Again.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416116382182297603/photo/1

    I wonder what we should call the thing in between Amber and Red? Amber plus? Amber minus? Orange? Ochre?

    Going abroad under current circumstances, unless it is urgent and unavoidable, is bonkers - but it really would aid the welfare of those foolhardy enough (unless they're able to afford and willing to risk the threat of quarantine) to make leisure trips regardless, if this hopeless Government were simply to say "do not go on foreign holidays." But it's much like this ridiculous pantomime with the masks, where they're doing away with mandates and then applauding train companies and other businesses if they impose mandates. Up the proverbial without a paddle.
    I’m off to California in a couple of weeks 😃😃
    I'm very resentful that all my American friends are taking cut price European holidays right now, while I can't leave the US :sad:
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    No we're no longer bothering with interventions that keep R less than 1 because the vaccines have won the race. We've vaccinated the vulnerable, we've vaccinated all adults that want it.

    Now the virus can rip, we've already vaccinated people. Race won.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited July 2021
    FPT
    MaxPB said:
    'I honestly don't see how the Tories hold on to Finchley and Golders Green next time. Unless they can make the Lib Dems and Labour fight it out the Lib Dems will walk it. '

    I have to disagree there. Labour has traditionally been the main challenger in Finchley - even when Thatcher was the MP. With the single exception of 1964, Labour was always the runner - up there until 2019 - and actually held the seat 1997 - 2010. The 2019 result is likely to prove an aberration caused by Corbyn's row with the Jewish community and the former Labour MP - Luciana Berger - being the LD candidate. Labour may not win the seat next time , but I will be very surprised if the party fails to at least regain second place. Ditto for Cities of London & Westminster.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
    I send my wife out a a month before me to do all that shit…
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Charles said:

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Amber Plus / Magenta category? Yeah, that will help.
    I once got a paper graded as “alpha double minus query beta triple plus”
    A translation for the plebs in the forum?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Of the ten US states with the biggest Covid problems right now, all but one (Nevada) were won by Trump in November.

    The lucky 10 are: Arkansas, Missouri, Florida, Louisiana, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Albama, Oklahoma and Mississippi.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    FPT (PPT?)

    Leon said:

    Just had one of the most extraordinary drinks of my life. Under a tree in Green Park

    One of my oldest friends, dating back almost 4 decades, who nearly died of Covid last year, revealed that his fairly unexceptional Chelsea* life - married young, then got ill, and got disability benefit to support his wife and kids - has been a total lie, and all this time he has been a drug dealer to the stars. Class A, supermodels, etc

    God bless my friends, who can still turn tricks like this, THEY ROCK

    *I have changed details

    Lock him up.
    Indeed!

    In Gothenburg (pop. about 580,000) the police have recently identified and charged 745 buyers of cocaine, with a further 660 under investigation. Most of these people are well-off, white middle class family folk. They are going to prison, and social services will be getting involved in their children’s’ lives. In other words a shocking tragedy for thousands of affected people.

    Imagine if the London police were similarly proactive. Several government ministers would be dragged off to court, and tens of thousands of middle class families devastated.

    It is easy to blame the dealers, but the real evil bastards are the smug shits buying the stuff and getting off scot-free.
    In full agreement with Stuart Dickson for once! Wonders will never cease.

    What scummy people, thinking they are alright because they are well off.

    I met this culture in a couple of city banks back in the day.

    The druggies did not even give a thought to the abuse, rape, and murder implicit in the supply chain they chose to help maintain to get their white powder.

    And some of them want to lecture others about clothing supply chains and similar. Duh.
    Nah, the real,blame lies with various govts that criminalise it.

    Blaming the users but giving a free pass to the dealers is as bad as blaming the dealers and giving a free pass to the users.

    People will take cocaine. People will supply cocaine.

    The war on drugs is a joke. Legalise it.
    Yep, one way or the other. The middle way clearly doesn’t work.

    Either go down the Bangkok/Dubai/Singapore route of throwing the keys away, else legalise it and make tax money.
    It’s happening more and more with marijuana. So,why not cocaine.

    Otherwise you get pointless debates blaming users or dealers.
    Your evidence of no difference between soft and hard drugs, and that relaxation of the law on cocaine leads to a magical absence of criminal activity?

    Without evidence it is a combination of assumption and wind.

    As far as I know, the only places which have decriminalised the possession / sale of minimal quantities of hard drugs are places like Peru and .. er .. Colombia.

    Are they free of criminality yet?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,089
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
    Talking of which, France did nearly 880 thousand vaccinations today, comfortably beating the UK daily record that was set back in March and never exceeded.

    Tell people there's a problem, tell them what to do, apply a carrot-shaped stick or a stick-shaped carrot, and people respond.

    Leaving aside the the germ theory aspects of the UK plan, saying "it's up to you really" means you undercut the possibilities to incentivise people.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Amber Plus / Magenta category? Yeah, that will help.
    I once got a paper graded as “alpha double minus query beta triple plus”
    A translation for the plebs in the forum?
    For the capites censi? Almost but not quite top drawer.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
    My employer's trips are absolubtely work, we're not going into furnaces for fun.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
    My employer's trips are absolubtely work, we're not going into furnaces for fun.
    Stop complaining. It;s as good as sunbathing at Ibiza, and you don't have to quarantine in the Hartlepool motel.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: People going to France will have to quarantine on return even if they are double jabbed

    France is not on the “red” list

    Instead they’ve in effect invented a new category. Again.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416116382182297603/photo/1

    I wonder what we should call the thing in between Amber and Red? Amber plus? Amber minus? Orange? Ochre?

    Going abroad under current circumstances, unless it is urgent and unavoidable, is bonkers - but it really would aid the welfare of those foolhardy enough (unless they're able to afford and willing to risk the threat of quarantine) to make leisure trips regardless, if this hopeless Government were simply to say "do not go on foreign holidays." But it's much like this ridiculous pantomime with the masks, where they're doing away with mandates and then applauding train companies and other businesses if they impose mandates. Up the proverbial without a paddle.
    I’m off to California in a couple of weeks 😃😃
    I'm very resentful that all my American friends are taking cut price European holidays right now, while I can't leave the US :sad:
    I couldn’t get a club seat on the way back even using my status - too many GGL passengers on it…
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Amber Plus / Magenta category? Yeah, that will help.
    I once got a paper graded as “alpha double minus query beta triple plus”
    A translation for the plebs in the forum?
    First
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cicero said:

    Reading the UK headlines today, it seems like the government is descending into an absolute shambles.

    Ministers suggesting that France is going "Red" despite having a fraction of the out of control numbers in Britain, which is still theoretically planning to abandon all restrictions. Could anything infuriate a very large number of Tory voters more? Its almost as if Johnson wants to screw things up for his own party... Lib Dems gaining Guildford looks nailed on.

    More to the point, Labour gaining Uxbridge and South Ruislip...

    Seriously though, it really does seem like the Tories have lost the will to live, every day more spectacularly stupid decisions, from Covid to Sleaze and the corrosive acid of the Hard Brexit desolving more and more of the economy and indeed the very fabric of the Union.

    Anyone quoting odds on whether Johnson will hold his own seat? If this tsumani gets going then 1997 could end up looking like a walk in the park...

    And yet they lead the polls by a large amount.
    I know.
    My take on the big picture numbers is that three moves have happened since December 2019.

    1 Most of the residual BXP vote has moved into the Conservative column (see Hartlepool). So C +2 say

    2 A chunk of the Conservative 2019 vote has moved elsewhere, Lib or Lab (see Batley and Spen and Chesham and Amersham). C-4 Lab +4 say.

    3 A chunk of the Labour 2019 vote has peeled off to explicit lefty parties (Hartlepool and Batley) or Greens (elsewhere) possibly because they're pining for Jez. Lab -4, Green +4.

    The first of those effects looks pretty set in stone now. The second is the one that moves over time, according to perceived government competence.

    The third is the interesting one. What's driving it, and can Labour do anything about it?
    Somewhat disappointingly from my point of view as a Unionist you also need to have a movement from Scottish Labour to the SNP worth something like -2 across the UK as well. SLAB are not in a good place.
    And SLab are the last bastion of the Union. Once they irreversibly fall, the Union falls.
    Would SCon renaming themselves the Unionist Party have any discernible impact?
    No.

    They should never have abandoned their old party in 1965, but it is far too late to reverse that catastrophic decision now. The damage is done.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
    Talking of which, France did nearly 880 thousand vaccinations today, comfortably beating the UK daily record that was set back in March and never exceeded.

    Tell people there's a problem, tell them what to do, apply a carrot-shaped stick or a stick-shaped carrot, and people respond.

    Leaving aside the the germ theory aspects of the UK plan, saying "it's up to you really" means you undercut the possibilities to incentivise people.
    And yet that is the liberal thing to do.

    I would rather the British approach to vaccination than the French....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Wow what a catch for the 9th wicket.

    This has been an incredibly fun T20. Well done Pakistan.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Amber Plus / Magenta category? Yeah, that will help.
    I once got a paper graded as “alpha double minus query beta triple plus”
    A translation for the plebs in the forum?
    The serfs want to know what is a pleb, and what is a forum?

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    justin124 said:

    FPT
    MaxPB said:
    'I honestly don't see how the Tories hold on to Finchley and Golders Green next time. Unless they can make the Lib Dems and Labour fight it out the Lib Dems will walk it. '

    I have to disagree there. Labour has traditionally been the main challenger in Finchley - even when Thatcher was the MP. With the single exception of 1964, Labour was always the runner - up there until 2019 - and actually held the seat 1997 - 2010. The 2019 result is likely to prove an aberration caused by Corbyn's row with the Jewish community and the former Labour MP - Luciana Berger - being the LD candidate. Labour may not win the seat next time , but I will be very surprised if the party fails to at least regain second place. Ditto for Cities of London & Westminster.

    London's boundaries will be rather different in 2024, which complicates things somewhat.

    Next year, we'll have the London council elections, which will be pretty informative. My guess is that the LDs will make progress in London. But we'll see.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
    Talking of which, France did nearly 880 thousand vaccinations today, comfortably beating the UK daily record that was set back in March and never exceeded.

    Tell people there's a problem, tell them what to do, apply a carrot-shaped stick or a stick-shaped carrot, and people respond.

    Leaving aside the the germ theory aspects of the UK plan, saying "it's up to you really" means you undercut the possibilities to incentivise people.
    And yet that is the liberal thing to do.

    I would rather the British approach to vaccination than the French....
    I think there's more that we could do to encourage people to be vaccinated without stopping to the French approach. For example, in Ireland they've done something with dating apps to help encourage younger people to get vaccinated. https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0715/1235249-coronavirus-ireland/

    In the UK I know that there have been a lot of youtube videos from various celebrities, with a particular focus on ethnic minority communities, but there doesn't seem to have been much inventiveness in trying to encourage those reluctant or disorganised beyond that. We could do more.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    From the,"you couldn't make it up" file:

    'Bulgaria has banned UK travellers from entering the country due to concerns about the growing number of coronavirus cases in Britain.

    The ban comes into force on Monday - the same day Bulgaria moves to the UK's green travel list...'
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    algarkirk said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Amber Plus / Magenta category? Yeah, that will help.
    I once got a paper graded as “alpha double minus query beta triple plus”
    A translation for the plebs in the forum?
    The serfs want to know what is a pleb, and what is a forum?

    A forum is where readers write in with salacious and largely made uo details about their love lives.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    FPT (PPT?)

    Leon said:

    Just had one of the most extraordinary drinks of my life. Under a tree in Green Park

    One of my oldest friends, dating back almost 4 decades, who nearly died of Covid last year, revealed that his fairly unexceptional Chelsea* life - married young, then got ill, and got disability benefit to support his wife and kids - has been a total lie, and all this time he has been a drug dealer to the stars. Class A, supermodels, etc

    God bless my friends, who can still turn tricks like this, THEY ROCK

    *I have changed details

    Lock him up.
    Indeed!

    In Gothenburg (pop. about 580,000) the police have recently identified and charged 745 buyers of cocaine, with a further 660 under investigation. Most of these people are well-off, white middle class family folk. They are going to prison, and social services will be getting involved in their children’s’ lives. In other words a shocking tragedy for thousands of affected people.

    Imagine if the London police were similarly proactive. Several government ministers would be dragged off to court, and tens of thousands of middle class families devastated.

    It is easy to blame the dealers, but the real evil bastards are the smug shits buying the stuff and getting off scot-free.
    In full agreement with Stuart Dickson for once! Wonders will never cease.

    What scummy people, thinking they are alright because they are well off.

    I met this culture in a couple of city banks back in the day.

    The druggies did not even give a thought to the abuse, rape, and murder implicit in the supply chain they chose to help maintain to get their white powder.

    And some of them want to lecture others about clothing supply chains and similar. Duh.
    Nah, the real,blame lies with various govts that criminalise it.

    Blaming the users but giving a free pass to the dealers is as bad as blaming the dealers and giving a free pass to the users.

    People will take cocaine. People will supply cocaine.

    The war on drugs is a joke. Legalise it.
    Yep, one way or the other. The middle way clearly doesn’t work.

    Either go down the Bangkok/Dubai/Singapore route of throwing the keys away, else legalise it and make tax money.
    It’s happening more and more with marijuana. So,why not cocaine.

    Otherwise you get pointless debates blaming users or dealers.
    Your evidence of no difference between soft and hard drugs, and that relaxation of the law on cocaine leads to a magical absence of criminal activity?

    Without evidence it is a combination of assumption and wind.

    As far as I know, the only places which have decriminalised the possession / sale of minimal quantities of hard drugs are places like Peru and .. er .. Colombia.

    Are they free of criminality yet?
    Decriminalisation is the worst of all worlds.

    Proper legalisation means that Diageo and Philip Morris compete to sell you cocaine, and that means that they'll need - you know - proper paper trails and invoices and actaul corporate entitles to deal with. As a general rule, the Inland Revenue frowns on "costs $5,000,000 paid out in used fivers to Colombian drugs gangs and smuggled into the UK via drugs mules."
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
    Talking of which, France did nearly 880 thousand vaccinations today, comfortably beating the UK daily record that was set back in March and never exceeded.

    Tell people there's a problem, tell them what to do, apply a carrot-shaped stick or a stick-shaped carrot, and people respond.

    Leaving aside the the germ theory aspects of the UK plan, saying "it's up to you really" means you undercut the possibilities to incentivise people.
    One of the most curious things about the pandemic has been the rush of stories about how the French are suffering massive vaccine hesitancy, when in fact they're about to pass the US in terms of vaccine penetration, and the numbers haven't really slowed down.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    FPT (PPT?)

    Leon said:

    Just had one of the most extraordinary drinks of my life. Under a tree in Green Park

    One of my oldest friends, dating back almost 4 decades, who nearly died of Covid last year, revealed that his fairly unexceptional Chelsea* life - married young, then got ill, and got disability benefit to support his wife and kids - has been a total lie, and all this time he has been a drug dealer to the stars. Class A, supermodels, etc

    God bless my friends, who can still turn tricks like this, THEY ROCK

    *I have changed details

    Lock him up.
    Indeed!

    In Gothenburg (pop. about 580,000) the police have recently identified and charged 745 buyers of cocaine, with a further 660 under investigation. Most of these people are well-off, white middle class family folk. They are going to prison, and social services will be getting involved in their children’s’ lives. In other words a shocking tragedy for thousands of affected people.

    Imagine if the London police were similarly proactive. Several government ministers would be dragged off to court, and tens of thousands of middle class families devastated.

    It is easy to blame the dealers, but the real evil bastards are the smug shits buying the stuff and getting off scot-free.
    In full agreement with Stuart Dickson for once! Wonders will never cease.

    What scummy people, thinking they are alright because they are well off.

    I met this culture in a couple of city banks back in the day.

    The druggies did not even give a thought to the abuse, rape, and murder implicit in the supply chain they chose to help maintain to get their white powder.

    And some of them want to lecture others about clothing supply chains and similar. Duh.
    Nah, the real,blame lies with various govts that criminalise it.

    Blaming the users but giving a free pass to the dealers is as bad as blaming the dealers and giving a free pass to the users.

    People will take cocaine. People will supply cocaine.

    The war on drugs is a joke. Legalise it.
    Yep, one way or the other. The middle way clearly doesn’t work.

    Either go down the Bangkok/Dubai/Singapore route of throwing the keys away, else legalise it and make tax money.
    It’s happening more and more with marijuana. So,why not cocaine.

    Otherwise you get pointless debates blaming users or dealers.
    Your evidence of no difference between soft and hard drugs, and that relaxation of the law on cocaine leads to a magical absence of criminal activity?

    Without evidence it is a combination of assumption and wind.

    As far as I know, the only places which have decriminalised the possession / sale of minimal quantities of hard drugs are places like Peru and .. er .. Colombia.

    Are they free of criminality yet?
    Decriminalisation is the worst of all worlds.

    Proper legalisation means that Diageo and Philip Morris compete to sell you cocaine, and that means that they'll need - you know - proper paper trails and invoices and actaul corporate entitles to deal with. As a general rule, the Inland Revenue frowns on "costs $5,000,000 paid out in used fivers to Colombian drugs gangs and smuggled into the UK via drugs mules."
    A few years ago wasn't that basically what Tesco was doing in order to sell cheap Levi jeans?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: People going to France will have to quarantine on return even if they are double jabbed

    France is not on the “red” list

    Instead they’ve in effect invented a new category. Again.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416116382182297603/photo/1

    I wonder what we should call the thing in between Amber and Red? Amber plus? Amber minus? Orange? Ochre?

    Going abroad under current circumstances, unless it is urgent and unavoidable, is bonkers - but it really would aid the welfare of those foolhardy enough (unless they're able to afford and willing to risk the threat of quarantine) to make leisure trips regardless, if this hopeless Government were simply to say "do not go on foreign holidays." But it's much like this ridiculous pantomime with the masks, where they're doing away with mandates and then applauding train companies and other businesses if they impose mandates. Up the proverbial without a paddle.
    I’m off to California in a couple of weeks 😃😃
    I'm very resentful that all my American friends are taking cut price European holidays right now, while I can't leave the US :sad:
    I couldn’t get a club seat on the way back even using my status - too many GGL passengers on it…
    You poor bastard. I'm so sorry. My commiserations. (Fancy lunch when you're over?)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    From the,"you couldn't make it up" file:

    'Bulgaria has banned UK travellers from entering the country due to concerns about the growing number of coronavirus cases in Britain.

    The ban comes into force on Monday - the same day Bulgaria moves to the UK's green travel list...'

    Bulgaria is possibly the least vaccinated country in Europe - I think they're only at about 15% of people with at least one dose.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    FPT (PPT?)

    Leon said:

    Just had one of the most extraordinary drinks of my life. Under a tree in Green Park

    One of my oldest friends, dating back almost 4 decades, who nearly died of Covid last year, revealed that his fairly unexceptional Chelsea* life - married young, then got ill, and got disability benefit to support his wife and kids - has been a total lie, and all this time he has been a drug dealer to the stars. Class A, supermodels, etc

    God bless my friends, who can still turn tricks like this, THEY ROCK

    *I have changed details

    Lock him up.
    Indeed!

    In Gothenburg (pop. about 580,000) the police have recently identified and charged 745 buyers of cocaine, with a further 660 under investigation. Most of these people are well-off, white middle class family folk. They are going to prison, and social services will be getting involved in their children’s’ lives. In other words a shocking tragedy for thousands of affected people.

    Imagine if the London police were similarly proactive. Several government ministers would be dragged off to court, and tens of thousands of middle class families devastated.

    It is easy to blame the dealers, but the real evil bastards are the smug shits buying the stuff and getting off scot-free.
    In full agreement with Stuart Dickson for once! Wonders will never cease.

    What scummy people, thinking they are alright because they are well off.

    I met this culture in a couple of city banks back in the day.

    The druggies did not even give a thought to the abuse, rape, and murder implicit in the supply chain they chose to help maintain to get their white powder.

    And some of them want to lecture others about clothing supply chains and similar. Duh.
    Nah, the real,blame lies with various govts that criminalise it.

    Blaming the users but giving a free pass to the dealers is as bad as blaming the dealers and giving a free pass to the users.

    People will take cocaine. People will supply cocaine.

    The war on drugs is a joke. Legalise it.
    Yep, one way or the other. The middle way clearly doesn’t work.

    Either go down the Bangkok/Dubai/Singapore route of throwing the keys away, else legalise it and make tax money.
    It’s happening more and more with marijuana. So,why not cocaine.

    Otherwise you get pointless debates blaming users or dealers.
    Your evidence of no difference between soft and hard drugs, and that relaxation of the law on cocaine leads to a magical absence of criminal activity?

    Without evidence it is a combination of assumption and wind.

    As far as I know, the only places which have decriminalised the possession / sale of minimal quantities of hard drugs are places like Peru and .. er .. Colombia.

    Are they free of criminality yet?
    Decriminalisation is the worst of all worlds.

    Proper legalisation means that Diageo and Philip Morris compete to sell you cocaine, and that means that they'll need - you know - proper paper trails and invoices and actaul corporate entitles to deal with. As a general rule, the Inland Revenue frowns on "costs $5,000,000 paid out in used fivers to Colombian drugs gangs and smuggled into the UK via drugs mules."
    A few years ago wasn't that basically what Tesco was doing in order to sell cheap Levi jeans?
    Wasn't that grey market importing? Not exactly Colombian drug cartels.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
    Talking of which, France did nearly 880 thousand vaccinations today, comfortably beating the UK daily record that was set back in March and never exceeded.

    Tell people there's a problem, tell them what to do, apply a carrot-shaped stick or a stick-shaped carrot, and people respond.

    Leaving aside the the germ theory aspects of the UK plan, saying "it's up to you really" means you undercut the possibilities to incentivise people.
    One of the most curious things about the pandemic has been the rush of stories about how the French are suffering massive vaccine hesitancy, when in fact they're about to pass the US in terms of vaccine penetration, and the numbers haven't really slowed down.
    Well when those stories were originally circulating it wasn't curious at all. It was a fact. Helped in no small part by a President who spent all his time bashing vaccines for political ends.

    Once they were able to shut him up and get some sane voices in front of the public vaccine uptake rocketed.

    By the French and many other European countries still have a lot of issues with genuine vaccine hesitancy. Just look at their historic flu vaccine uptake. One good thing that might come out of all of this is that we might see a much higher uptake of seasonal flu vaccines going forward in many of those countries.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: People going to France will have to quarantine on return even if they are double jabbed

    France is not on the “red” list

    Instead they’ve in effect invented a new category. Again.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416116382182297603/photo/1

    I wonder what we should call the thing in between Amber and Red? Amber plus? Amber minus? Orange? Ochre?

    Going abroad under current circumstances, unless it is urgent and unavoidable, is bonkers - but it really would aid the welfare of those foolhardy enough (unless they're able to afford and willing to risk the threat of quarantine) to make leisure trips regardless, if this hopeless Government were simply to say "do not go on foreign holidays." But it's much like this ridiculous pantomime with the masks, where they're doing away with mandates and then applauding train companies and other businesses if they impose mandates. Up the proverbial without a paddle.
    I’m off to California in a couple of weeks 😃😃
    I'm very resentful that all my American friends are taking cut price European holidays right now, while I can't leave the US :sad:
    I couldn’t get a club seat on the way back even using my status - too many GGL passengers on it…
    You poor bastard. I'm so sorry. My commiserations. (Fancy lunch when you're over?)
    Sure. LA or Laguna?

    (My wife and daughter are up front so I shall at least have peace and quiet 😂)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    Scott_xP said:

    The Clown Collective in Downing Street do seem to have a managed a clean sweep of front pages.

    Trebles all round...

    No French holidays? Sacre Bleu!

    All blue constituencies in a line from the Severn Estuary to the Wash turn orange?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    edited July 2021
    rcs1000 said:


    London's boundaries will be rather different in 2024, which complicates things somewhat.

    Next year, we'll have the London council elections, which will be pretty informative. My guess is that the LDs will make progress in London. But we'll see.

    Beyond Richmond, Kingston and Sutton, the LDs have very few councillors in London. Of the 152 Councillors, 111 are in those three Boroughs and a further 26 in Haringey and Southwark.

    That leaves 15 across the rest of London and the party has no representation on 23 of the 32 London Boroughs.

    Labour are absent on three authorities which I've already mentioned.

    The Conservatives have no Councillors on six authorities - Barking & Dagenham, Haringey, Lewisham, Islington, Newham and Southwark. Three of those have wholly Labour councillors - no opposition Councillors at all.

    More than half of all the Conservative Councillors are in just seven authorities - Bromley, Hillingdon, Barnet, Bexley, Westminster, Kensington & Chelsea and Wandsworth.

    I struggle to see where a lot of change is going to happen - the Corbyn effect was a huge help to the Conservatives in Barnet last time and it may be closer this time. The other Labour prospect might be Wandsworth but both look long shots.

    The split last time was Labour 44, Conservative 29, LD 13, Green 8.5 or thereabouts.

    At the 2019 GE, it was Labour 48, Conservative 32, LD 15.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    edited July 2021
    A week - a week! - after he plead guilty to murder, the Metropolitan Police have managed to fire the police officer who murdered Sarah Everard. He was charged *four* months ago, but it's okay, he's been sacked with immediate effect and without notice now. No rush lads.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    I'm wondering if this increasingly complex and constantly shifting pattern of rules is actually the Government's preferred method of prohibiting foreign travel?

    You don't simply kill it off, you create about 63 different alert levels, shift from one random level to another at unpredictable times for every individual country, and leave travellers, travel agents, insurers, airlines and everyone else entirely clueless as to what the rules are each day and what they're meant to do to comply with them. Not to mention the fact that your destination being suddenly shifted into one of the variety of higher levels (Red, Ultramarine, Beige, Burnt Sienna, Violet or Black) whilst you are actually abroad means that you have 24 hours to get home, or you have to pay for some species of accommodation for two weeks upon return. Usually at an airport hotel, except for Violet (where it's a suite in Claridges for three weeks,) or Burnt Sienna (where you don't pay at all, but instead receive a six month custodial prison sentence.)

    Thus, travel is still allowed in theory but is rendered impossible in practice, and Boris Johnson is spared having to call a press conference where he cancels everyone's sunshine holidays.
    The imprimatur of Shapps.
    I hear reports that he is an extraordinarily conceited, rude and arrogant man. Anyone here with first hand experience?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    A week - a week! - after he plead guilty to murder, the Metropolitan Police have managed to fire the police officer who murdered Sarah Everard. He was charged *four* months ago, but it's okay, he's been sacked with immediate effect and without notice now. No rush lads.

    To be fair I’m certain there are processes to go through.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    A week - a week! - after he plead guilty to murder, the Metropolitan Police have managed to fire the police officer who murdered Sarah Everard. He was charged *four* months ago, but it's okay, he's been sacked with immediate effect and without notice now. No rush lads.

    Innocent until proven guilty, its quite right that they don't prejudge the trial.

    Of all the things to criticise the Met for - and there's a lot - this is rather low down the list.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: People going to France will have to quarantine on return even if they are double jabbed

    France is not on the “red” list

    Instead they’ve in effect invented a new category. Again.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416116382182297603/photo/1

    I wonder what we should call the thing in between Amber and Red? Amber plus? Amber minus? Orange? Ochre?

    Going abroad under current circumstances, unless it is urgent and unavoidable, is bonkers - but it really would aid the welfare of those foolhardy enough (unless they're able to afford and willing to risk the threat of quarantine) to make leisure trips regardless, if this hopeless Government were simply to say "do not go on foreign holidays." But it's much like this ridiculous pantomime with the masks, where they're doing away with mandates and then applauding train companies and other businesses if they impose mandates. Up the proverbial without a paddle.
    I’m off to California in a couple of weeks 😃😃
    I'm very resentful that all my American friends are taking cut price European holidays right now, while I can't leave the US :sad:
    I couldn’t get a club seat on the way back even using my status - too many GGL passengers on it…
    You poor bastard. I'm so sorry. My commiserations. (Fancy lunch when you're over?)
    Sure. LA or Laguna?

    (My wife and daughter are up front so I shall at least have peace and quiet 😂)
    You put them in Club while travelling WTP yourself? That's incredibly noble of you. I'm guessing it was a double airmiles purchase :smile:

    I'll ping you over email re lunch
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Amber Plus / Magenta category? Yeah, that will help.
    I once got a paper graded as “alpha double minus query beta triple plus”
    A translation for the plebs in the forum?
    First
    Several hundred posts too late I'm afraid.
    First query second?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    FPT (PPT?)

    Leon said:

    Just had one of the most extraordinary drinks of my life. Under a tree in Green Park

    One of my oldest friends, dating back almost 4 decades, who nearly died of Covid last year, revealed that his fairly unexceptional Chelsea* life - married young, then got ill, and got disability benefit to support his wife and kids - has been a total lie, and all this time he has been a drug dealer to the stars. Class A, supermodels, etc

    God bless my friends, who can still turn tricks like this, THEY ROCK

    *I have changed details

    Lock him up.
    Indeed!

    In Gothenburg (pop. about 580,000) the police have recently identified and charged 745 buyers of cocaine, with a further 660 under investigation. Most of these people are well-off, white middle class family folk. They are going to prison, and social services will be getting involved in their children’s’ lives. In other words a shocking tragedy for thousands of affected people.

    Imagine if the London police were similarly proactive. Several government ministers would be dragged off to court, and tens of thousands of middle class families devastated.

    It is easy to blame the dealers, but the real evil bastards are the smug shits buying the stuff and getting off scot-free.
    In full agreement with Stuart Dickson for once! Wonders will never cease.

    What scummy people, thinking they are alright because they are well off.

    I met this culture in a couple of city banks back in the day.

    The druggies did not even give a thought to the abuse, rape, and murder implicit in the supply chain they chose to help maintain to get their white powder.

    And some of them want to lecture others about clothing supply chains and similar. Duh.
    Nah, the real,blame lies with various govts that criminalise it.

    Blaming the users but giving a free pass to the dealers is as bad as blaming the dealers and giving a free pass to the users.

    People will take cocaine. People will supply cocaine.

    The war on drugs is a joke. Legalise it.
    Yep, one way or the other. The middle way clearly doesn’t work.

    Either go down the Bangkok/Dubai/Singapore route of throwing the keys away, else legalise it and make tax money.
    It’s happening more and more with marijuana. So,why not cocaine.

    Otherwise you get pointless debates blaming users or dealers.
    Your evidence of no difference between soft and hard drugs, and that relaxation of the law on cocaine leads to a magical absence of criminal activity?

    Without evidence it is a combination of assumption and wind.

    As far as I know, the only places which have decriminalised the possession / sale of minimal quantities of hard drugs are places like Peru and .. er .. Colombia.

    Are they free of criminality yet?
    Decriminalisation is the worst of all worlds.

    Proper legalisation means that Diageo and Philip Morris compete to sell you cocaine, and that means that they'll need - you know - proper paper trails and invoices and actaul corporate entitles to deal with. As a general rule, the Inland Revenue frowns on "costs $5,000,000 paid out in used fivers to Colombian drugs gangs and smuggled into the UK via drugs mules."
    A few years ago wasn't that basically what Tesco was doing in order to sell cheap Levi jeans?
    Wasn't that grey market importing? Not exactly Colombian drug cartels.
    No, you're correct.

    Mexican drug cartels.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
    Talking of which, France did nearly 880 thousand vaccinations today, comfortably beating the UK daily record that was set back in March and never exceeded.

    Tell people there's a problem, tell them what to do, apply a carrot-shaped stick or a stick-shaped carrot, and people respond.

    Leaving aside the the germ theory aspects of the UK plan, saying "it's up to you really" means you undercut the possibilities to incentivise people.
    One of the most curious things about the pandemic has been the rush of stories about how the French are suffering massive vaccine hesitancy, when in fact they're about to pass the US in terms of vaccine penetration, and the numbers haven't really slowed down.
    The press being dishonest is hardly curious.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Only 49 hours, 24 minutes to Freedom Day.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    Andy_JS said:

    Only 49 hours, 24 minutes to Freedom Day.

    Hats off to Boris for finally beating Covid!
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    edited July 2021
    I think if you wanted to be a right gloomy bastard tonight you would conclude that vaccines might have at one point been the way out of this but it seems increasingly unlikely it will be because the post-vaccination landscape is now so horribly confused and fucked up, noone appears to know what's going on any more even if the vaccines themselves are good.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
    Talking of which, France did nearly 880 thousand vaccinations today, comfortably beating the UK daily record that was set back in March and never exceeded.

    Tell people there's a problem, tell them what to do, apply a carrot-shaped stick or a stick-shaped carrot, and people respond.

    Leaving aside the the germ theory aspects of the UK plan, saying "it's up to you really" means you undercut the possibilities to incentivise people.
    One of the most curious things about the pandemic has been the rush of stories about how the French are suffering massive vaccine hesitancy, when in fact they're about to pass the US in terms of vaccine penetration, and the numbers haven't really slowed down.
    In a conversation about hesitancy, saying that France has been able to pass the US is like saying that although Rishi Sunak has been called short, he's taller than John Bercow.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    No we're no longer bothering with interventions that keep R less than 1 because the vaccines have won the race. We've vaccinated the vulnerable, we've vaccinated all adults that want it.

    Now the virus can rip, we've already vaccinated people. Race won.
    A million Brits have had covid in the last 2 weeks according to ONS estimates. At that rate it is going to burn through the Unvaxxed within a couple of months, though some of that million will be the vaxxed.

    I cannot avoid exposure at work, but am going to be quite cautious socially for a while yet.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    A week - a week! - after he plead guilty to murder, the Metropolitan Police have managed to fire the police officer who murdered Sarah Everard. He was charged *four* months ago, but it's okay, he's been sacked with immediate effect and without notice now. No rush lads.

    Innocent until proven guilty, its quite right that they don't prejudge the trial.

    Of all the things to criticise the Met for - and there's a lot - this is rather low down the list.
    Pretty sure my firm would have me sacked the day I plead guilty....why give public sector a week. I am merely surprised they just havent suspended him on full pay pending an appeal
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    rcs1000 said:

    From the,"you couldn't make it up" file:

    'Bulgaria has banned UK travellers from entering the country due to concerns about the growing number of coronavirus cases in Britain.

    The ban comes into force on Monday - the same day Bulgaria moves to the UK's green travel list...'

    Bulgaria is possibly the least vaccinated country in Europe - I think they're only at about 15% of people with at least one dose.
    All the more reason to keep Brits out!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    No we're no longer bothering with interventions that keep R less than 1 because the vaccines have won the race. We've vaccinated the vulnerable, we've vaccinated all adults that want it.

    Now the virus can rip, we've already vaccinated people. Race won.
    A million Brits have had covid in the last 2 weeks according to ONS estimates. At that rate it is going to burn through the Unvaxxed within a couple of months, though some of that million will be the vaxxed.

    I cannot avoid exposure at work, but am going to be quite cautious socially for a while yet.
    Have many of your unvaccinated colleagues been starting to get second thoughts and get their jab?

    I wonder whether any of the antivaxxers here have had second thoughts yet?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    No we're no longer bothering with interventions that keep R less than 1 because the vaccines have won the race. We've vaccinated the vulnerable, we've vaccinated all adults that want it.

    Now the virus can rip, we've already vaccinated people. Race won.
    A million Brits have had covid in the last 2 weeks according to ONS estimates. At that rate it is going to burn through the Unvaxxed within a couple of months, though some of that million will be the vaxxed.

    I cannot avoid exposure at work, but am going to be quite cautious socially for a while yet.
    Have many of your unvaccinated colleagues been starting to get second thoughts and get their jab?

    I wonder whether any of the antivaxxers here have had second thoughts yet?
    I think a couple have and others have not. I don't discuss it with them as it just starts arguments.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,929
    edited July 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    My view FWIW


    Until recently, the vaccination programme has been described as a race against the virus. If we no longer bother with interventions that keep R less than 1, we are abandoning the race. The virus will win. The question is, how big will its victory be?

    We are in the unusual situation where we can make plausible cases for eliminating all controls, keeping the ones we have for some time, or increasing them. We have been in this situation for more than a month.
    I think keeping R below 1 became almost impossible after Delta turned up, some of the countries that have done very well up til now are now seeing large outbreaks.
    The levels of viral shedding from Delta appear to be orders of magnitude higher than with other variants. This makes (a) mitigation measures like masks less effective, and (b) results in a R that is possibly 3x the level of Alpha.

    This means that places that have so far avoided the pox will get hammered. When Delta escapes in Australia (and it will, simply because it is so infectious) it will cause havoc.

    The only solution is to keep jabbing at maximum pace, and to do everything we can to extend the number of people getting the vaccine. It's time to open it up (as in the US) to 12-17 year olds, and hopefully beyond.
    Yes. Also make vaccination quasi-compulsory. Make life for the unvaxed such a fucking hassle they yield and get the jab. No half measures now
    Talking of which, France did nearly 880 thousand vaccinations today, comfortably beating the UK daily record that was set back in March and never exceeded.

    Tell people there's a problem, tell them what to do, apply a carrot-shaped stick or a stick-shaped carrot, and people respond.

    Leaving aside the the germ theory aspects of the UK plan, saying "it's up to you really" means you undercut the possibilities to incentivise people.
    One of the most curious things about the pandemic has been the rush of stories about how the French are suffering massive vaccine hesitancy, when in fact they're about to pass the US in terms of vaccine penetration, and the numbers haven't really slowed down.
    What I think happened in France was their vaccination programme was better than their online record keeping. France gave the Order of Merit to some student tech wizz who created the site https://covidtracker.fr/ to consolidate various regional and offline records of cases and vaccinations.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pagan2 said:

    A week - a week! - after he plead guilty to murder, the Metropolitan Police have managed to fire the police officer who murdered Sarah Everard. He was charged *four* months ago, but it's okay, he's been sacked with immediate effect and without notice now. No rush lads.

    Innocent until proven guilty, its quite right that they don't prejudge the trial.

    Of all the things to criticise the Met for - and there's a lot - this is rather low down the list.
    Pretty sure my firm would have me sacked the day I plead guilty....why give public sector a week. I am merely surprised they just havent suspended him on full pay pending an appeal
    Although in this case its just a formality, they probably have procedures to follow.

    Any time I've ever sacked anyone I have always rigorously followed at least giving a 48h notification period to invite them in for a disciplinary meeting, even if its an open and shut case.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    By putting France on the all new Amber Plus / Magenta category, people will struggle to claim on their insurance

    Sadly no ministers are available tonight to ask...

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416121058646757383

    Here's a thought, perhaps people shouldn't be going on holiday in the middle of a pandemic? Mad, I know.
    The problem is that there are a lot "not really vacation, but definitely not work" trips.

    If you own a place on the Continent, you probably want to go visit it (for the first time in two years) to make sure there's not been a water leak, and to get essential maintenance done.
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: People going to France will have to quarantine on return even if they are double jabbed

    France is not on the “red” list

    Instead they’ve in effect invented a new category. Again.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1416116382182297603/photo/1

    I wonder what we should call the thing in between Amber and Red? Amber plus? Amber minus? Orange? Ochre?

    Going abroad under current circumstances, unless it is urgent and unavoidable, is bonkers - but it really would aid the welfare of those foolhardy enough (unless they're able to afford and willing to risk the threat of quarantine) to make leisure trips regardless, if this hopeless Government were simply to say "do not go on foreign holidays." But it's much like this ridiculous pantomime with the masks, where they're doing away with mandates and then applauding train companies and other businesses if they impose mandates. Up the proverbial without a paddle.
    I’m off to California in a couple of weeks 😃😃
    I'm very resentful that all my American friends are taking cut price European holidays right now, while I can't leave the US :sad:
    I couldn’t get a club seat on the way back even using my status - too many GGL passengers on it…
    You poor bastard. I'm so sorry. My commiserations. (Fancy lunch when you're over?)
    Sure. LA or Laguna?

    (My wife and daughter are up front so I shall at least have peace and quiet 😂)
    You put them in Club while travelling WTP yourself? That's incredibly noble of you. I'm guessing it was a double airmiles purchase :smile:

    I'll ping you over email re lunch
    Sounds good. I booked their flight ages ago… I just refused to pay £3000 extra to fly with them…
This discussion has been closed.