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BoJo judged to have had his worst PMQs for a year – politicalbetting.com

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  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Happy Bastille Day!

    Aux arms citoyens!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,476
    Roger said:

    Happy Bastille Day!

    Aux arms citoyens!

    Let the tumbrils roll, I'll get my knitting.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    dixiedean said:

    See here's the thing.

    The tory tactics up to and through freedom day have been quite interesting. Lifting the mask mandate in particular. Unexpectedly bold.

    Who primarily is being hampered by covid restrictions now after labour's reaction on masks? and who will be hit by them if passports for nightclubs and crowded indoor venues come in for the autumn in response to case rises?

    Is it

    A. Metropolitan labour voters. or

    B. Metropolitan labour voters.

    It really is rather beautiful. And labour have taken the bait superbly.

    Now. I ask you, did Boris Johnson think that up all by himself?

    You are assuming masks are unpopular.
    They aren't.
    Yes well masks may or may not be popular, but the atmosphere on transport as people and staff struggle with refuseniks, drunks late at night, dodgy lanyard wearers, attention seekers and assorted others will be about as popular as a f*rt in a space suit.

    I don;t rule out industrial action.

    And it will all be Khan's fault. And Burnham's. In their own electoral back yards.

    It really is very good.
    That's exactly what it has always been like up till now round here. Why would it change?
    Polling says the most inconvenienced will be the elderly who want the mask mandate kept in place. And might want to use their free bus passes.
    Glad to see you positively salivating at the prospect of strikes and violence in the interests of owning a few Mayors though.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    stodge said:

    It will be fascinating to see how Sadiq Khan's edict on continued mask wearing on the Underground is followed and enforced from next week.

    In my part of town, I'd say non-compliance is about 15% - I expect that to rise.

    TFL have 400 enforcement officers whose task will be to enforce this ruling which has been implemented as part of the "conditions of carriage". In truth, expecting everyone to wear a mask is up there with expecting everyone to pay a fare - fare evasion is endemic and non-compliance with mask wearing will be.

    The point in political terms surely, this is no longer the government's problem.

    It's Khan's. And Burnham's. And labour's.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer may be right that taking the knee is fully supported on his side of the political divide, 78% of Labour voters back it. Personally I believe it is a matter of personal choice.

    On the Tory side however only 38% of Tory voters back taking the knee, so it makes sense for Boris and Patel in terms of their base not to push taking the knee too hard.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1414951623437193224?s=20

    Do those Conservatives who do not support taking the knee also support BOOING those taking the knee? I very much doubt most do.

    That's the big danger for Johnson. In pandering to the base (an activity of which I know you are a huge fan) he's allowed himself to be cast in a bad light even for those in his base. This issue could have been closed down pre-tournament, but Patel's comments weren't corrected, and headbanger Tory MPs weren't disciplined.

    I'd also note that 38% is a heck of a lot of Tories. Not saying at all that this issue will do it on its own, but Major only needed to lose around a quarter of voters in his 1992 triumph to go down in flames in 1997. Indeed, it's that 38% that Conservatives need to pander to most of all as they are the ones most likely to shop elsewhere for their political leaders.

    This is what Cameron understood with his "hug a hoody" and "hug a huskie" messaging, the 0.7% of GDP stuff etc. None of that was about the base - the Tory base varies from agnostic to hostile on such things. It's about the Blair voters and soggy centre.
    Good post. The base aren't going anywhere else, now post-Brexit.

    They need to worry about me. An ex-Cons voter now thoroughly disaffected by the make up of the Party and is looking around to see what's on offer. So far SKS ain't it but I thought he had a good PMQs today and there will be some for whom a sustained good run by him will do much to sway their vote.
    Did you vote Tory in 2019? If not then no, we don't need to worry about you
    Yes me old mucker, I voted Tory in 2019.

    Now, how can you help me...
    I think you're a little bit like JackW, actually.

    You're a core and loyal Conservative - you always vote that way, and even campaign that way at times - but adopt a more critical persona on here because you like to test your own thinking and challenge others too.

    I understand that.
    Main thing I recall about "JackW" is a complete inability to spot Trumpian bullshit. Bit of a 'nicebutdim' character.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,476

    dixiedean said:

    See here's the thing.

    The tory tactics up to and through freedom day have been quite interesting. Lifting the mask mandate in particular. Unexpectedly bold.

    Who primarily is being hampered by covid restrictions now after labour's reaction on masks? and who will be hit by them if passports for nightclubs and crowded indoor venues come in for the autumn in response to case rises?

    Is it

    A. Metropolitan labour voters. or

    B. Metropolitan labour voters.

    It really is rather beautiful. And labour have taken the bait superbly.

    Now. I ask you, did Boris Johnson think that up all by himself?

    You are assuming masks are unpopular.
    They aren't.
    Yes well masks may or may not be popular, but the atmosphere on transport as people and staff struggle with refuseniks, drunks late at night, dodgy lanyard wearers, attention seekers and assorted others will be about as popular as a f*rt in a space suit.

    I don;t rule out industrial action.

    And it will all be Khan's fault. And Burnham's. In their own electoral back yards.

    It really is very good.
    Stopping masks on public transport is seen as a step too far by many of my older patients, of all social classes.

    Let's see how it shakes out before we decide who is the political winner. This wave has not yet peaked.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Happy Bastille Day!

    Aux arms citoyens!

    Let the tumbrils roll, I'll get my knitting.
    I’ll take my trousers off..
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    pigeon said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    FWIW I did speak to someone conducting polls and focus groups, they said the public have started getting scared again.

    They haven't been this scared since February, when the vaccine rollout was going full pelt.

    Over the last year or so you could match Boris Johnson's and government popularity to how scared the public felt.

    It's time to get rid of daily reporting of statistics. Roll it up into a weekly ONS release. It no longer serves any purpose other than to make people fearful for no reason. At the same point in the last wave we had 20k already in hospital and an average of around 550 deaths per day compared to about 25.

    The fear is now irrational for anyone who's had both jabs which is 35m people and rising.
    I don't think the fear is irrational. Its probably innumerate but we are used to that. The number of people in hospital shows that if you have a very small percentage that are not fully protected by the vaccines and then multiply by it very large number like 35m you get a significant number of hospital patients. The risk in the individual case is small but not non existent.
    It's closest to a fear of flying which is actually a fear of not being in control. Virtually no one dies in plane crashes and virtually no one dies of COVID after being double jabbed. The fear is that we're not in control of the plane just as we're not in control of the virus. Travelling by road is significantly riskier than flying, but very few people are scared of driving because there's some level of control over the car.

    That's where we're currently at and by marking COVID out as something special despite it now being just like any other virtual disease for the double jabbed is a driver of the fear.
    Your chances of dying of, as opposed to with, Covid are vanishingly small once double vaxxed but much more material numbers are needing hospital treatment and a lot of them will have long covid symptons for some time to come.

    We are paying the price of slow vaccination rates in May, June and now July as well. Not enough of us are double vaxxed.
    Exactly. I'm now double jabbed. I am not very likely to die of Covid now. TBH i wasn't that likely to die of it before I was jabbed. Its Long Covid that is the true horror - an indeterminate condition that can be utterly crippling with no way out that we know of.

    Posting "The fear is now irrational" is what is irrational.
    I'm not afraid of long covid. We know f'all about it, and it seems like an odd fear to stop life over.

    As I've said passim, I had long meningitis - not that many in the medical profession seem to recognise it. It was sh*t, but I mostly recovered. We cannot be afraid of our own shadows, and it does sound like it's being used as an excuse to bash the government.

    Also, it needs to be weighed up against the sheer human cost of the lockdowns. Are the government getting it right? Time will tell, but possibly not. But shouting 'long covid!' and calling it a 'horror' does not strike me as a sensible approach.
    You may not be afraid. Our household harbours a certain amount of concern (one of us is a shielder) but we're not going to let the Plague rule our lives insofar as that's possible, either. But I'll wager that an enormous number of people are absolutely bricking it. You hear it and you see it and you read about it every day now. The epidemic of children with eating disorders, anxiety-depression, extreme germ phobia - and the consequent reported collapse of child and adolescent mental health services, under the weight of demand - is a disaster on its own, without even considering the state of mind of the adult population.

    One of my major concerns about Covid is that a substantial fraction of the population has been so scarred by the disease and all the experiences that have surrounded it that, regardless of the level of vaccination or the direction of the statistics, they'll keep on being afraid and may, consequently, never feel safe ever again. What on Earth do we do about that?
    I agree, but most of the effects you mention are not about long covid, but the fact that we've been living through rather strange times for 15 months.

    I crave normality. My parents hadn't seen their youngest grandchild for a year, and were desperate to spend time with him. A friend's mother lives in another town, and has lost nearly all social contact since this began, as most of her friends were shielding. All these nasty effects needs weighing up against the problem of a minority getting long covid - which might resolve for most affected after a while.

    Having said that, I'm going to remain cautious. But hopefully I will not let caution overwhelm me.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    Well the domestic cricket season is about to turn into a shit show of epic proportions.

    Doubts are growing over the viability of this season's county competitions as clubs face increasing difficulty putting out sides.
    ESPNcricinfo understands that the combination of Covid-related withdrawals and Hundred call-ups has decimated county squads with Kent, for example, now without their first-choice 17 players.

    The ECB have already announced the cancellation of Derbyshire's final two T20 Blast fixtures. The club have been hit by a spate of injuries and Covid withdrawals leading to a situation where 20 of their players are currently unavailable. The club and ECB subsequently concluded they were unable to put out a team that could "maintain the integrity... of the competition."

    Several other first-class counties have cancelled their List A matches against the National County sides which were scheduled for next week leading to increasing doubts over whether the Royal London One-Day Cup will even be able to go ahead.

    Even before Covid hit, several county squads had been hit hard by Hundred call-ups, with Surrey losing a dozen players. With the ECB desperate to ensure their new competition goes ahead, there are concerns that any further calls upon county squads will undermine the credibility of the 50-over domestic competition to extent where it is abandoned for a second year in succession.

    There is also a three-day match next week between a county XI and the India touring squad which will be used as a warm-up to the Test series against England which starts on August 4.

    Clubs are also understood to be struggling with stewarding, with at least one of them considering playing games behind closed doors. In several cases, the numbers of trained staff - especially stewards - has been limited by the requirement to self-isolate....


    ....The ECB on Wednesday confirmed that Derbyshire Falcons' final two Vitality Blast group-stage matches have been cancelled.

    "ECB has determined that Derbyshire CCC is unable to field a team of a strength appropriate to maintain the integrity of the two matches and of the competition as a whole," it said in a statement.


    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/doubts-grow-over-viability-of-county-competitions-as-clubs-face-difficulty-putting-out-sides-1269618

    I suspect the test side will be put in a bubble for the whole of the India series as the ECB will lose circa £100million if that series goes mammary glands up.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    dixiedean said:

    9 out of Top Ten for NE now. Will be spending my day travelling into and about the Toon by public transport.
    Will be interesting to see whether this has had an impact on folk out and about and mask prevalence.
    Will report back tomorrow.

    I was out and about in the toon today. Didn’t appear to be any different to normal really and NE1 seem to be doing some further work along the quayside,
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,317
    edited July 2021
    pigeon said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    FWIW I did speak to someone conducting polls and focus groups, they said the public have started getting scared again.

    They haven't been this scared since February, when the vaccine rollout was going full pelt.

    Over the last year or so you could match Boris Johnson's and government popularity to how scared the public felt.

    It's time to get rid of daily reporting of statistics. Roll it up into a weekly ONS release. It no longer serves any purpose other than to make people fearful for no reason. At the same point in the last wave we had 20k already in hospital and an average of around 550 deaths per day compared to about 25.

    The fear is now irrational for anyone who's had both jabs which is 35m people and rising.
    I don't think the fear is irrational. Its probably innumerate but we are used to that. The number of people in hospital shows that if you have a very small percentage that are not fully protected by the vaccines and then multiply by it very large number like 35m you get a significant number of hospital patients. The risk in the individual case is small but not non existent.
    It's closest to a fear of flying which is actually a fear of not being in control. Virtually no one dies in plane crashes and virtually no one dies of COVID after being double jabbed. The fear is that we're not in control of the plane just as we're not in control of the virus. Travelling by road is significantly riskier than flying, but very few people are scared of driving because there's some level of control over the car.

    That's where we're currently at and by marking COVID out as something special despite it now being just like any other virtual disease for the double jabbed is a driver of the fear.
    Your chances of dying of, as opposed to with, Covid are vanishingly small once double vaxxed but much more material numbers are needing hospital treatment and a lot of them will have long covid symptons for some time to come.

    We are paying the price of slow vaccination rates in May, June and now July as well. Not enough of us are double vaxxed.
    Exactly. I'm now double jabbed. I am not very likely to die of Covid now. TBH i wasn't that likely to die of it before I was jabbed. Its Long Covid that is the true horror - an indeterminate condition that can be utterly crippling with no way out that we know of.

    Posting "The fear is now irrational" is what is irrational.
    I'm not afraid of long covid. We know f'all about it, and it seems like an odd fear to stop life over.

    As I've said passim, I had long meningitis - not that many in the medical profession seem to recognise it. It was sh*t, but I mostly recovered. We cannot be afraid of our own shadows, and it does sound like it's being used as an excuse to bash the government.

    Also, it needs to be weighed up against the sheer human cost of the lockdowns. Are the government getting it right? Time will tell, but possibly not. But shouting 'long covid!' and calling it a 'horror' does not strike me as a sensible approach.
    You may not be afraid. Our household harbours a certain amount of concern (one of us is a shielder) but we're not going to let the Plague rule our lives insofar as that's possible, either. But I'll wager that an enormous number of people are absolutely bricking it. You hear it and you see it and you read about it every day now. The epidemic of children with eating disorders, anxiety-depression, extreme germ phobia - and the consequent reported collapse of child and adolescent mental health services, under the weight of demand - is a disaster on its own, without even considering the state of mind of the adult population.

    One of my major concerns about Covid is that a substantial fraction of the population has been so scarred by the disease and all the experiences that have surrounded it that, regardless of the level of vaccination or the direction of the statistics, they'll keep on being afraid and may, consequently, never feel safe ever again. What on Earth do we do about that?
    Whats the solution? Continued restrictions to allievate peoples imagined concerns? Therin lies the path to insanity.

    I don't know anyone who is bricking it. Everyone I know is just getting on with their lives and working their way around the restrictions. This is particularly obvious as all the parents at my sons school refuse to wear masks even though they are supposed to at drop off/pick up and the headteacher has made no attempt to enforce the rules. Everyone seems to have taken the vaccine and determined to just get on with their lives. There are a few elderly relatives who are confused about the situation but they are all going about their business in a normal way; no one is in hiding from the pandemic as they may have been last year.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    Foxy said:

    Spain reports more than 26,000 new coronavirus cases, biggest one-day increase since February

    - New cases: 26,390
    - Average: 20,497 (+1,287)
    - In hospital: 4,467 (+284)
    - In ICU: 798 (+49)
    - New deaths: 10

    So is @Leon the superspreader?
    Unfortunate phrasing in that question ...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    I think the thread header is correct

    How this affects the polling as we move forward I do not know, but it has not been a good spectacle with idiotic remarks from Natalie Elphicke and our own @HYUFD which I immediately called out

    Marcus Rashford is a role model, successful footballer, but more than that his campaign for free school meals has been completely non political.

    Also Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka are wonderful role models as well and the England team is a huge credit to the nstion

    To an extent his campaign was party political, while 71% of Labour voters backed his campaign for free school meals in the holidays, Tory voters opposed his campaign by 47% to 40%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Your comments were the same as Natalie Elphicke effectively saying he missed the penalty because he was involved in politics

    At least she has made an unconditional apology for getting it wrong
    I’m slightly uncomfortable about this continued demand for @HYUFD to apologise.

    He made an ill-judged remark. But there was nothing offensive about it.

    Natalie Elphicke apologised because it was politically the right thing to do, not because her remark required an apology.

    We should have free and fair debate her without piling on someone for an unwise post.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,672
    pigeon said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    FWIW I did speak to someone conducting polls and focus groups, they said the public have started getting scared again.

    They haven't been this scared since February, when the vaccine rollout was going full pelt.

    Over the last year or so you could match Boris Johnson's and government popularity to how scared the public felt.

    It's time to get rid of daily reporting of statistics. Roll it up into a weekly ONS release. It no longer serves any purpose other than to make people fearful for no reason. At the same point in the last wave we had 20k already in hospital and an average of around 550 deaths per day compared to about 25.

    The fear is now irrational for anyone who's had both jabs which is 35m people and rising.
    I don't think the fear is irrational. Its probably innumerate but we are used to that. The number of people in hospital shows that if you have a very small percentage that are not fully protected by the vaccines and then multiply by it very large number like 35m you get a significant number of hospital patients. The risk in the individual case is small but not non existent.
    It's closest to a fear of flying which is actually a fear of not being in control. Virtually no one dies in plane crashes and virtually no one dies of COVID after being double jabbed. The fear is that we're not in control of the plane just as we're not in control of the virus. Travelling by road is significantly riskier than flying, but very few people are scared of driving because there's some level of control over the car.

    That's where we're currently at and by marking COVID out as something special despite it now being just like any other virtual disease for the double jabbed is a driver of the fear.
    Your chances of dying of, as opposed to with, Covid are vanishingly small once double vaxxed but much more material numbers are needing hospital treatment and a lot of them will have long covid symptons for some time to come.

    We are paying the price of slow vaccination rates in May, June and now July as well. Not enough of us are double vaxxed.
    Exactly. I'm now double jabbed. I am not very likely to die of Covid now. TBH i wasn't that likely to die of it before I was jabbed. Its Long Covid that is the true horror - an indeterminate condition that can be utterly crippling with no way out that we know of.

    Posting "The fear is now irrational" is what is irrational.
    I'm not afraid of long covid. We know f'all about it, and it seems like an odd fear to stop life over.

    As I've said passim, I had long meningitis - not that many in the medical profession seem to recognise it. It was sh*t, but I mostly recovered. We cannot be afraid of our own shadows, and it does sound like it's being used as an excuse to bash the government.

    Also, it needs to be weighed up against the sheer human cost of the lockdowns. Are the government getting it right? Time will tell, but possibly not. But shouting 'long covid!' and calling it a 'horror' does not strike me as a sensible approach.
    You may not be afraid. Our household harbours a certain amount of concern (one of us is a shielder) but we're not going to let the Plague rule our lives insofar as that's possible, either. But I'll wager that an enormous number of people are absolutely bricking it. You hear it and you see it and you read about it every day now. The epidemic of children with eating disorders, anxiety-depression, extreme germ phobia - and the consequent reported collapse of child and adolescent mental health services, under the weight of demand - is a disaster on its own, without even considering the state of mind of the adult population.

    One of my major concerns about Covid is that a substantial fraction of the population has been so scarred by the disease and all the experiences that have surrounded it that, regardless of the level of vaccination or the direction of the statistics, they'll keep on being afraid and may, consequently, never feel safe ever again. What on Earth do we do about that?
    Agreed. The enormous toll on mental health - especially in young people and kids - will slowly become clear and it will be ugly. We can’t lock down any more. For them
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,878
    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Cookie said:

    At my older daughters' school, there is a year 4 class currently out for which 12 out of 30 have had a positive PCR test in the past week.
    Pretty soon, the virus is going to have nowhere to go.

    It seems to have spread a lot in last 4 to 5 days

    Several pubs where I used to live have had outbreaks confirmed last few days
    Any... Any event in the last few days that may have caused crowds to gather in pubs?
    Hands face,
    Reaching out.
    Touching me
    Touching youuuuuu
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think the thread header is correct

    How this affects the polling as we move forward I do not know, but it has not been a good spectacle with idiotic remarks from Natalie Elphicke and our own @HYUFD which I immediately called out

    Marcus Rashford is a role model, successful footballer, but more than that his campaign for free school meals has been completely non political.

    Also Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka are wonderful role models as well and the England team is a huge credit to the nstion

    To an extent his campaign was party political, while 71% of Labour voters backed his campaign for free school meals in the holidays, Tory voters opposed his campaign by 47% to 40%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Your comments were the same as Natalie Elphicke effectively saying he missed the penalty because he was involved in politics

    At least she has made an unconditional apology for getting it wrong
    I’m slightly uncomfortable about this continued demand for @HYUFD to apologise.

    He made an ill-judged remark. But there was nothing offensive about it.

    Natalie Elphicke apologised because it was politically the right thing to do, not because her remark required an apology.

    We should have free and fair debate her without piling on someone for an unwise post.
    Like, for instance, accusing people of being people smugglers with zero evidence?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited July 2021
    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119



    There were rather more than the one:



  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,855
    edited July 2021
    MattW said:

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119


    Object lesson in making your statements much shorter, I think.

    "I was innocent, but here's words to the contrary" is a curious approach.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer may be right that taking the knee is fully supported on his side of the political divide, 78% of Labour voters back it. Personally I believe it is a matter of personal choice.

    On the Tory side however only 38% of Tory voters back taking the knee, so it makes sense for Boris and Patel in terms of their base not to push taking the knee too hard.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1414951623437193224?s=20

    Do those Conservatives who do not support taking the knee also support BOOING those taking the knee? I very much doubt most do.

    That's the big danger for Johnson. In pandering to the base (an activity of which I know you are a huge fan) he's allowed himself to be cast in a bad light even for those in his base. This issue could have been closed down pre-tournament, but Patel's comments weren't corrected, and headbanger Tory MPs weren't disciplined.

    I'd also note that 38% is a heck of a lot of Tories. Not saying at all that this issue will do it on its own, but Major only needed to lose around a quarter of voters in his 1992 triumph to go down in flames in 1997. Indeed, it's that 38% that Conservatives need to pander to most of all as they are the ones most likely to shop elsewhere for their political leaders.

    This is what Cameron understood with his "hug a hoody" and "hug a huskie" messaging, the 0.7% of GDP stuff etc. None of that was about the base - the Tory base varies from agnostic to hostile on such things. It's about the Blair voters and soggy centre.
    Good post. The base aren't going anywhere else, now post-Brexit.

    They need to worry about me. An ex-Cons voter now thoroughly disaffected by the make up of the Party and is looking around to see what's on offer. So far SKS ain't it but I thought he had a good PMQs today and there will be some for whom a sustained good run by him will do much to sway their vote.
    Did you vote Tory in 2019? If not then no, we don't need to worry about you
    Yes me old mucker, I voted Tory in 2019.

    Now, how can you help me...
    I think you're a little bit like JackW, actually.

    You're a core and loyal Conservative - you always vote that way, and even campaign that way at times - but adopt a more critical persona on here because you like to test your own thinking and challenge others too.

    I understand that.
    Main thing I recall about "JackW" is a complete inability to spot Trumpian bullshit. Bit of a 'nicebutdim' character.
    Nothing at all nicebutdim about @JackW IRL… lots of Trumpian bullshit though…
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think the thread header is correct

    How this affects the polling as we move forward I do not know, but it has not been a good spectacle with idiotic remarks from Natalie Elphicke and our own @HYUFD which I immediately called out

    Marcus Rashford is a role model, successful footballer, but more than that his campaign for free school meals has been completely non political.

    Also Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka are wonderful role models as well and the England team is a huge credit to the nstion

    To an extent his campaign was party political, while 71% of Labour voters backed his campaign for free school meals in the holidays, Tory voters opposed his campaign by 47% to 40%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Your comments were the same as Natalie Elphicke effectively saying he missed the penalty because he was involved in politics

    At least she has made an unconditional apology for getting it wrong
    I’m slightly uncomfortable about this continued demand for @HYUFD to apologise.

    He made an ill-judged remark. But there was nothing offensive about it.

    Natalie Elphicke apologised because it was politically the right thing to do, not because her remark required an apology.

    We should have free and fair debate her without piling on someone for an unwise post.
    It wasn't even ill-judged. It was rather funny, only very slightly waspish, and I strongly suspect the Elphicke woman of nicking it from here. She doesn't seem bright enough to have thought of it on her own.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813

    pigeon said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    FWIW I did speak to someone conducting polls and focus groups, they said the public have started getting scared again.

    They haven't been this scared since February, when the vaccine rollout was going full pelt.

    Over the last year or so you could match Boris Johnson's and government popularity to how scared the public felt.

    It's time to get rid of daily reporting of statistics. Roll it up into a weekly ONS release. It no longer serves any purpose other than to make people fearful for no reason. At the same point in the last wave we had 20k already in hospital and an average of around 550 deaths per day compared to about 25.

    The fear is now irrational for anyone who's had both jabs which is 35m people and rising.
    I don't think the fear is irrational. Its probably innumerate but we are used to that. The number of people in hospital shows that if you have a very small percentage that are not fully protected by the vaccines and then multiply by it very large number like 35m you get a significant number of hospital patients. The risk in the individual case is small but not non existent.
    It's closest to a fear of flying which is actually a fear of not being in control. Virtually no one dies in plane crashes and virtually no one dies of COVID after being double jabbed. The fear is that we're not in control of the plane just as we're not in control of the virus. Travelling by road is significantly riskier than flying, but very few people are scared of driving because there's some level of control over the car.

    That's where we're currently at and by marking COVID out as something special despite it now being just like any other virtual disease for the double jabbed is a driver of the fear.
    Your chances of dying of, as opposed to with, Covid are vanishingly small once double vaxxed but much more material numbers are needing hospital treatment and a lot of them will have long covid symptons for some time to come.

    We are paying the price of slow vaccination rates in May, June and now July as well. Not enough of us are double vaxxed.
    Exactly. I'm now double jabbed. I am not very likely to die of Covid now. TBH i wasn't that likely to die of it before I was jabbed. Its Long Covid that is the true horror - an indeterminate condition that can be utterly crippling with no way out that we know of.

    Posting "The fear is now irrational" is what is irrational.
    I'm not afraid of long covid. We know f'all about it, and it seems like an odd fear to stop life over.

    As I've said passim, I had long meningitis - not that many in the medical profession seem to recognise it. It was sh*t, but I mostly recovered. We cannot be afraid of our own shadows, and it does sound like it's being used as an excuse to bash the government.

    Also, it needs to be weighed up against the sheer human cost of the lockdowns. Are the government getting it right? Time will tell, but possibly not. But shouting 'long covid!' and calling it a 'horror' does not strike me as a sensible approach.
    You may not be afraid. Our household harbours a certain amount of concern (one of us is a shielder) but we're not going to let the Plague rule our lives insofar as that's possible, either. But I'll wager that an enormous number of people are absolutely bricking it. You hear it and you see it and you read about it every day now. The epidemic of children with eating disorders, anxiety-depression, extreme germ phobia - and the consequent reported collapse of child and adolescent mental health services, under the weight of demand - is a disaster on its own, without even considering the state of mind of the adult population.

    One of my major concerns about Covid is that a substantial fraction of the population has been so scarred by the disease and all the experiences that have surrounded it that, regardless of the level of vaccination or the direction of the statistics, they'll keep on being afraid and may, consequently, never feel safe ever again. What on Earth do we do about that?
    I agree, but most of the effects you mention are not about long covid, but the fact that we've been living through rather strange times for 15 months.

    I crave normality. My parents hadn't seen their youngest grandchild for a year, and were desperate to spend time with him. A friend's mother lives in another town, and has lost nearly all social contact since this began, as most of her friends were shielding. All these nasty effects needs weighing up against the problem of a minority getting long covid - which might resolve for most affected after a while.

    Having said that, I'm going to remain cautious. But hopefully I will not let caution overwhelm me.
    My intention was to highlight the totality of the effect of the pandemic upon mental illness, not merely Long Covid which, as you say, is a modest contributor to the overall problem.

    Whenever we're finally out the other end of this (and that includes, pray God, no longer having disagreements about masks) then most of us will doubtless breathe an almighty sigh of relief and look forward to just getting on with it and putting this all behind us. But there are also going to be millions who find that very hard to do.

    There will probably still be meaningful numbers of individuals shielding in another years' time, because it has become an entrenched habit and they find the outside world too intimidating to come to terms with. It's very sad.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Happy Bastille Day!

    Aux arms citoyens!

    Let the tumbrils roll, I'll get my knitting.
    Rashfords with us. Sancho's with us Ming's with us and Sterling (when he's signed his new £350,000 a week contract ) might think about it....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think the thread header is correct

    How this affects the polling as we move forward I do not know, but it has not been a good spectacle with idiotic remarks from Natalie Elphicke and our own @HYUFD which I immediately called out

    Marcus Rashford is a role model, successful footballer, but more than that his campaign for free school meals has been completely non political.

    Also Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka are wonderful role models as well and the England team is a huge credit to the nstion

    To an extent his campaign was party political, while 71% of Labour voters backed his campaign for free school meals in the holidays, Tory voters opposed his campaign by 47% to 40%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Your comments were the same as Natalie Elphicke effectively saying he missed the penalty because he was involved in politics

    At least she has made an unconditional apology for getting it wrong
    I’m slightly uncomfortable about this continued demand for @HYUFD to apologise.

    He made an ill-judged remark. But there was nothing offensive about it.

    Natalie Elphicke apologised because it was politically the right thing to do, not because her remark required an apology.

    We should have free and fair debate her without piling on someone for an unwise post.
    Like, for instance, accusing people of being people smugglers with zero evidence?
    I thought I’d read an article to that effect but was wrong.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited July 2021
    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IshmaelZ said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think the thread header is correct

    How this affects the polling as we move forward I do not know, but it has not been a good spectacle with idiotic remarks from Natalie Elphicke and our own @HYUFD which I immediately called out

    Marcus Rashford is a role model, successful footballer, but more than that his campaign for free school meals has been completely non political.

    Also Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka are wonderful role models as well and the England team is a huge credit to the nstion

    To an extent his campaign was party political, while 71% of Labour voters backed his campaign for free school meals in the holidays, Tory voters opposed his campaign by 47% to 40%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Your comments were the same as Natalie Elphicke effectively saying he missed the penalty because he was involved in politics

    At least she has made an unconditional apology for getting it wrong
    I’m slightly uncomfortable about this continued demand for @HYUFD to apologise.

    He made an ill-judged remark. But there was nothing offensive about it.

    Natalie Elphicke apologised because it was politically the right thing to do, not because her remark required an apology.

    We should have free and fair debate her without piling on someone for an unwise post.
    It wasn't even ill-judged. It was rather funny, only very slightly waspish, and I strongly suspect the Elphicke woman of nicking it from here. She doesn't seem bright enough to have thought of it on her own.
    I’ll clarify: ill-judged for an aspiring politician

    What is funny is not always wise; what is wise is not always funny
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    Have you seen the Portsmouth's U18 snapchats?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    IshmaelZ said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think the thread header is correct

    How this affects the polling as we move forward I do not know, but it has not been a good spectacle with idiotic remarks from Natalie Elphicke and our own @HYUFD which I immediately called out

    Marcus Rashford is a role model, successful footballer, but more than that his campaign for free school meals has been completely non political.

    Also Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka are wonderful role models as well and the England team is a huge credit to the nstion

    To an extent his campaign was party political, while 71% of Labour voters backed his campaign for free school meals in the holidays, Tory voters opposed his campaign by 47% to 40%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Your comments were the same as Natalie Elphicke effectively saying he missed the penalty because he was involved in politics

    At least she has made an unconditional apology for getting it wrong
    I’m slightly uncomfortable about this continued demand for @HYUFD to apologise.

    He made an ill-judged remark. But there was nothing offensive about it.

    Natalie Elphicke apologised because it was politically the right thing to do, not because her remark required an apology.

    We should have free and fair debate her without piling on someone for an unwise post.
    It wasn't even ill-judged. It was rather funny, only very slightly waspish, and I strongly suspect the Elphicke woman of nicking it from here. She doesn't seem bright enough to have thought of it on her own.
    An easy test is, did she spell it 'practicing' HYUFD-style? (I never saw her tweet.)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    Have you seen the Portsmouth's U18 snapchats?
    Just looked - not good!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,426
    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    Ah yes, that old chestnut
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    IshmaelZ said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think the thread header is correct

    How this affects the polling as we move forward I do not know, but it has not been a good spectacle with idiotic remarks from Natalie Elphicke and our own @HYUFD which I immediately called out

    Marcus Rashford is a role model, successful footballer, but more than that his campaign for free school meals has been completely non political.

    Also Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka are wonderful role models as well and the England team is a huge credit to the nstion

    To an extent his campaign was party political, while 71% of Labour voters backed his campaign for free school meals in the holidays, Tory voters opposed his campaign by 47% to 40%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Your comments were the same as Natalie Elphicke effectively saying he missed the penalty because he was involved in politics

    At least she has made an unconditional apology for getting it wrong
    I’m slightly uncomfortable about this continued demand for @HYUFD to apologise.

    He made an ill-judged remark. But there was nothing offensive about it.

    Natalie Elphicke apologised because it was politically the right thing to do, not because her remark required an apology.

    We should have free and fair debate her without piling on someone for an unwise post.
    It wasn't even ill-judged. It was rather funny, only very slightly waspish, and I strongly suspect the Elphicke woman of nicking it from here. She doesn't seem bright enough to have thought of it on her own.
    Does HYUFD ever make jokes? For instance, is it merely banter abour tanks and Scotland? We ought to be told.
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606
    Roger said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brom said:

    It’s no wonder why Labour are miles behind in the polls given their views on trans rights, the knee and all the stuff that doesn’t interest the rump of voters. Boris Johnson shouldnt be the only adult in the room but in the past year he clearly is.

    I get the feeling the only adult in the room isn't Boris Johnson, it is Rishi Sunak. After his victory over aid spending, he is clearly a man with a plan.

    I reckon it is a pretty good plan at that.

    Next step: Deal with the triple lock.
    Let's hope so. Rishi Sunak would be almost impossible to beat at the next election if he's Tory leader.
    The perfect play for the Tories if to get through COVID crisis, then shuffle off Boris. The public inquiry will mostly dump on Boris and Hancock handling and Sunak, other than eat out to help out (and actually i don't think that actually harmed him), has been seen to have a good pandemic.
    They thought when Blair went Iraq etc would go with him. It didn't and I doubt it will leave 'Eat out to help out' Richi either. He was a Brexiteer supporter of Johnson. Hopefully that will be enough to see him off.
    Yes, I dont understand the view that Sunak would be a shoe in. Some may find him attractive, but he doesn't have the apparent cuddly appeal of Johnson, which covers up his very dark side. If I were Starmer I would be looking forward to facing Sunak at a GE.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
    The police took his computers away. All feels OTT, but I guess if someone makes this claim then the police have to investigate given that this is in the public eye.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think the thread header is correct

    How this affects the polling as we move forward I do not know, but it has not been a good spectacle with idiotic remarks from Natalie Elphicke and our own @HYUFD which I immediately called out

    Marcus Rashford is a role model, successful footballer, but more than that his campaign for free school meals has been completely non political.

    Also Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka are wonderful role models as well and the England team is a huge credit to the nstion

    To an extent his campaign was party political, while 71% of Labour voters backed his campaign for free school meals in the holidays, Tory voters opposed his campaign by 47% to 40%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Your comments were the same as Natalie Elphicke effectively saying he missed the penalty because he was involved in politics

    At least she has made an unconditional apology for getting it wrong
    I’m slightly uncomfortable about this continued demand for @HYUFD to apologise.

    He made an ill-judged remark. But there was nothing offensive about it.

    Natalie Elphicke apologised because it was politically the right thing to do, not because her remark required an apology.

    We should have free and fair debate her without piling on someone for an unwise post.
    Like, for instance, accusing people of being people smugglers with zero evidence?
    I thought I’d read an article to that effect but was wrong.
    Always verify your references. Dr Jowett's advice to young men setting out to build the empire, I believe.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
    The police took his computers away. All feels OTT, but I guess if someone makes this claim then the police have to investigate given that this is in the public eye.
    In fairness, if he was telling the truth it's good to have him exonerated conclusively after all that publicity.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
    The police took his computers away. All feels OTT, but I guess if someone makes this claim then the police have to investigate given that this is in the public eye.
    When a crime like this investigated they take every internet connectable device.

    A friend of mine she and her family had every phone, tablet, computer, watch, and TV taken when her son was accused of doing a bad thing.

    Left them in a right pickle for better part of two months.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
    The police took his computers away. All feels OTT, but I guess if someone makes this claim then the police have to investigate given that this is in the public eye.
    In fairness, if he was telling the truth it's good to have him exonerated conclusively after all that publicity.
    So they've taken a set of computers that won't tell you anything away... nice to see the police as competent as the Saville's manager is.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    edited July 2021
    ..
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer may be right that taking the knee is fully supported on his side of the political divide, 78% of Labour voters back it. Personally I believe it is a matter of personal choice.

    On the Tory side however only 38% of Tory voters back taking the knee, so it makes sense for Boris and Patel in terms of their base not to push taking the knee too hard.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1414951623437193224?s=20

    Do those Conservatives who do not support taking the knee also support BOOING those taking the knee? I very much doubt most do.

    That's the big danger for Johnson. In pandering to the base (an activity of which I know you are a huge fan) he's allowed himself to be cast in a bad light even for those in his base. This issue could have been closed down pre-tournament, but Patel's comments weren't corrected, and headbanger Tory MPs weren't disciplined.

    I'd also note that 38% is a heck of a lot of Tories. Not saying at all that this issue will do it on its own, but Major only needed to lose around a quarter of voters in his 1992 triumph to go down in flames in 1997. Indeed, it's that 38% that Conservatives need to pander to most of all as they are the ones most likely to shop elsewhere for their political leaders.

    This is what Cameron understood with his "hug a hoody" and "hug a huskie" messaging, the 0.7% of GDP stuff etc. None of that was about the base - the Tory base varies from agnostic to hostile on such things. It's about the Blair voters and soggy centre.
    Good post. The base aren't going anywhere else, now post-Brexit.

    They need to worry about me. An ex-Cons voter now thoroughly disaffected by the make up of the Party and is looking around to see what's on offer. So far SKS ain't it but I thought he had a good PMQs today and there will be some for whom a sustained good run by him will do much to sway their vote.
    Did you vote Tory in 2019? If not then no, we don't need to worry about you
    Yes me old mucker, I voted Tory in 2019.

    Now, how can you help me...
    I think you're a little bit like JackW, actually.

    You're a core and loyal Conservative - you always vote that way, and even campaign that way at times - but adopt a more critical persona on here because you like to test your own thinking and challenge others too.

    I understand that.
    Main thing I recall about "JackW" is a complete inability to spot Trumpian bullshit. Bit of a 'nicebutdim' character.
    You obviously don't know who he is.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
    The police took his computers away. All feels OTT, but I guess if someone makes this claim then the police have to investigate given that this is in the public eye.
    In fairness, if he was telling the truth it's good to have him exonerated conclusively after all that publicity.
    So they've taken a set of computers that won't tell you anything away... nice to see the police as competent as the Saville's manager is.

    Er, you said earlier that the thing should have the relevant email alerts if he's telling the truth. Am I missing something?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    edited July 2021

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer may be right that taking the knee is fully supported on his side of the political divide, 78% of Labour voters back it. Personally I believe it is a matter of personal choice.

    On the Tory side however only 38% of Tory voters back taking the knee, so it makes sense for Boris and Patel in terms of their base not to push taking the knee too hard.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1414951623437193224?s=20

    Do those Conservatives who do not support taking the knee also support BOOING those taking the knee? I very much doubt most do.

    That's the big danger for Johnson. In pandering to the base (an activity of which I know you are a huge fan) he's allowed himself to be cast in a bad light even for those in his base. This issue could have been closed down pre-tournament, but Patel's comments weren't corrected, and headbanger Tory MPs weren't disciplined.

    I'd also note that 38% is a heck of a lot of Tories. Not saying at all that this issue will do it on its own, but Major only needed to lose around a quarter of voters in his 1992 triumph to go down in flames in 1997. Indeed, it's that 38% that Conservatives need to pander to most of all as they are the ones most likely to shop elsewhere for their political leaders.

    This is what Cameron understood with his "hug a hoody" and "hug a huskie" messaging, the 0.7% of GDP stuff etc. None of that was about the base - the Tory base varies from agnostic to hostile on such things. It's about the Blair voters and soggy centre.
    Good post. The base aren't going anywhere else, now post-Brexit.

    They need to worry about me. An ex-Cons voter now thoroughly disaffected by the make up of the Party and is looking around to see what's on offer. So far SKS ain't it but I thought he had a good PMQs today and there will be some for whom a sustained good run by him will do much to sway their vote.
    Did you vote Tory in 2019? If not then no, we don't need to worry about you
    Yes me old mucker, I voted Tory in 2019.

    Now, how can you help me...
    I think you're a little bit like JackW, actually.

    You're a core and loyal Conservative - you always vote that way, and even campaign that way at times - but adopt a more critical persona on here because you like to test your own thinking and challenge others too.

    I understand that.
    Main thing I recall about "JackW" is a complete inability to spot Trumpian bullshit. Bit of a 'nicebutdim' character.
    You obviously don't know who he is.
    I always had him down has a patrician Tory of the old school, with lashings of noblesse oblige.

    Sadly I don’t know who he is. Sir Michael Ancram, maybe.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Corbyn too high.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    edited July 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    As LotO?
    I have literally zero opinion on Thatcher-as-LotO, except that she ultimately “won” of course.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    That;s abouyt being LOTO. Not PM.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,476

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer may be right that taking the knee is fully supported on his side of the political divide, 78% of Labour voters back it. Personally I believe it is a matter of personal choice.

    On the Tory side however only 38% of Tory voters back taking the knee, so it makes sense for Boris and Patel in terms of their base not to push taking the knee too hard.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1414951623437193224?s=20

    Do those Conservatives who do not support taking the knee also support BOOING those taking the knee? I very much doubt most do.

    That's the big danger for Johnson. In pandering to the base (an activity of which I know you are a huge fan) he's allowed himself to be cast in a bad light even for those in his base. This issue could have been closed down pre-tournament, but Patel's comments weren't corrected, and headbanger Tory MPs weren't disciplined.

    I'd also note that 38% is a heck of a lot of Tories. Not saying at all that this issue will do it on its own, but Major only needed to lose around a quarter of voters in his 1992 triumph to go down in flames in 1997. Indeed, it's that 38% that Conservatives need to pander to most of all as they are the ones most likely to shop elsewhere for their political leaders.

    This is what Cameron understood with his "hug a hoody" and "hug a huskie" messaging, the 0.7% of GDP stuff etc. None of that was about the base - the Tory base varies from agnostic to hostile on such things. It's about the Blair voters and soggy centre.
    Good post. The base aren't going anywhere else, now post-Brexit.

    They need to worry about me. An ex-Cons voter now thoroughly disaffected by the make up of the Party and is looking around to see what's on offer. So far SKS ain't it but I thought he had a good PMQs today and there will be some for whom a sustained good run by him will do much to sway their vote.
    Did you vote Tory in 2019? If not then no, we don't need to worry about you
    Yes me old mucker, I voted Tory in 2019.

    Now, how can you help me...
    I think you're a little bit like JackW, actually.

    You're a core and loyal Conservative - you always vote that way, and even campaign that way at times - but adopt a more critical persona on here because you like to test your own thinking and challenge others too.

    I understand that.
    Main thing I recall about "JackW" is a complete inability to spot Trumpian bullshit. Bit of a 'nicebutdim' character.
    You obviously don't know who he is.
    I always had him down has a patrician Tory of the old school, with lashings of noblesse oblige.

    Sadly I don’t know who he is. Sir Michael Ancram, maybe.
    I think he has a soft spot for the yellow peril 🙂

    But anonymity should be respected, if chosen, though we all leave clues.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,855
    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    Does it? How would one rate a leader of the opposition? By how well they held the government to account? By the ratings they had? How many seats they gained? How much they transformed their party during their time in opposition?

    Leaving aside their periods as PM, I have no idea how one would decide if Thatcher, or Blair or whoever was the 'best' leader in opposition, so how people ranked them could be interesting. Does IDS lost points vs Corbyn because he was so useless he never even got to fight an election, whilst Corbyn got two chances?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer may be right that taking the knee is fully supported on his side of the political divide, 78% of Labour voters back it. Personally I believe it is a matter of personal choice.

    On the Tory side however only 38% of Tory voters back taking the knee, so it makes sense for Boris and Patel in terms of their base not to push taking the knee too hard.
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1414951623437193224?s=20

    Do those Conservatives who do not support taking the knee also support BOOING those taking the knee? I very much doubt most do.

    That's the big danger for Johnson. In pandering to the base (an activity of which I know you are a huge fan) he's allowed himself to be cast in a bad light even for those in his base. This issue could have been closed down pre-tournament, but Patel's comments weren't corrected, and headbanger Tory MPs weren't disciplined.

    I'd also note that 38% is a heck of a lot of Tories. Not saying at all that this issue will do it on its own, but Major only needed to lose around a quarter of voters in his 1992 triumph to go down in flames in 1997. Indeed, it's that 38% that Conservatives need to pander to most of all as they are the ones most likely to shop elsewhere for their political leaders.

    This is what Cameron understood with his "hug a hoody" and "hug a huskie" messaging, the 0.7% of GDP stuff etc. None of that was about the base - the Tory base varies from agnostic to hostile on such things. It's about the Blair voters and soggy centre.
    Good post. The base aren't going anywhere else, now post-Brexit.

    They need to worry about me. An ex-Cons voter now thoroughly disaffected by the make up of the Party and is looking around to see what's on offer. So far SKS ain't it but I thought he had a good PMQs today and there will be some for whom a sustained good run by him will do much to sway their vote.
    Did you vote Tory in 2019? If not then no, we don't need to worry about you
    Yes me old mucker, I voted Tory in 2019.

    Now, how can you help me...
    I think you're a little bit like JackW, actually.

    You're a core and loyal Conservative - you always vote that way, and even campaign that way at times - but adopt a more critical persona on here because you like to test your own thinking and challenge others too.

    I understand that.
    Main thing I recall about "JackW" is a complete inability to spot Trumpian bullshit. Bit of a 'nicebutdim' character.
    You obviously don't know who he is.
    I always had him down has a patrician Tory of the old school, with lashings of noblesse oblige.

    Sadly I don’t know who he is. Sir Michael Ancram, maybe.
    I think he has a soft spot for the yellow peril 🙂

    But anonymity should be respected, if chosen, though we all leave clues.
    Yes, well Kinabalu is well out, anyway.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    Carry out several acts of penance.

    Perhaps working on the Marcus Rashford project to feed poor children would be a good starting point.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    I know where you are coming from, but I have already forgotten his name. He’ll be fine.

    His dismissal etc is just desserts I’m afraid.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    edited July 2021
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    Does it? How would one rate a leader of the opposition? By how well they held the government to account? By the ratings they had? How many seats they gained? How much they transformed their party during their time in opposition?

    Leaving aside their periods as PM, I have no idea how one would decide if Thatcher, or Blair or whoever was the 'best' leader in opposition, so how people ranked them could be interesting. Does IDS lost points vs Corbyn because he was so useless he never even got to fight an election, whilst Corbyn got two chances?
    I'd put Wilson top of the LOTO chart.

    Since the war very few LOTOs go on to become PM, Wilson did it twice.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    That;s abouyt being LOTO. Not PM.
    Fair enough to have Blair as #1 on LOTO (not as PM).

    But curious how Cameron who gained 96 seats is meant to be behind Wilson, or tied with Smith?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
    The police took his computers away. All feels OTT, but I guess if someone makes this claim then the police have to investigate given that this is in the public eye.
    In fairness, if he was telling the truth it's good to have him exonerated conclusively after all that publicity.
    So they've taken a set of computers that won't tell you anything away... nice to see the police as competent as the Saville's manager is.

    Er, you said earlier that the thing should have the relevant email alerts if he's telling the truth. Am I missing something?
    Email sits in the cloud - you don't need a computer to see that you can show it in 2 seconds.

    And the important information you need is actually going to be from twitter who can tell you the ip address that every message came from.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,908
    edited July 2021

    I see we have had the usual Wednesday spike in cases to dash hopes of them peaking. I look forward to the usual suspects claiming next Monday that cases have levelled off in the mid 40k cases...

    (1) The schools break up next Friday. See Scotland case numbers for what happens when schools break up.
    (2) The rate of increase in new cases has absolutely collapsed already. Even without schools breaking up, we would likely see cases top out pretty soon.

    I forecast a peak in infections of 50k. I don't think that looks very far from the truth.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
    The police took his computers away. All feels OTT, but I guess if someone makes this claim then the police have to investigate given that this is in the public eye.
    In fairness, if he was telling the truth it's good to have him exonerated conclusively after all that publicity.
    So they've taken a set of computers that won't tell you anything away... nice to see the police as competent as the Saville's manager is.

    Er, you said earlier that the thing should have the relevant email alerts if he's telling the truth. Am I missing something?
    Email sits in the cloud - you don't need a computer to see that you can show it in 2 seconds.

    And the important information you need is actually going to be from twitter who can tell you the ip address that every message came from.
    THanks. I was thinking more of keyboard usage with time but with a portable device of course that may not mean much.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,855

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    Does it? How would one rate a leader of the opposition? By how well they held the government to account? By the ratings they had? How many seats they gained? How much they transformed their party during their time in opposition?

    Leaving aside their periods as PM, I have no idea how one would decide if Thatcher, or Blair or whoever was the 'best' leader in opposition, so how people ranked them could be interesting. Does IDS lost points vs Corbyn because he was so useless he never even got to fight an election, whilst Corbyn got two chances?
    I'd put Wilson top of the LOTO.

    Since the war very few LOTOs go on to become PM, Wilson did it twice.
    Being PM across two separate periods seems like one of those things that won't happen in the UK again for a very long time. It still happens elsewhere, but I don't think we give second chances if someone already lost the top job anymore. Heck, we don't even want them to say anything.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,476

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
    The police took his computers away. All feels OTT, but I guess if someone makes this claim then the police have to investigate given that this is in the public eye.
    When a crime like this investigated they take every internet connectable device.

    A friend of mine she and her family had every phone, tablet, computer, watch, and TV taken when her son was accused of doing a bad thing.

    Left them in a right pickle for better part of two months.
    While I understand the necessity, dispossession people of their devices, particularly smartphones is quite a punishment in the modern world. Particularly traumatic for victims of sexual assaults it seems, as it cuts them off from their contacts at a vulnerable time. I see why many drop the charges.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    Does it? How would one rate a leader of the opposition? By how well they held the government to account? By the ratings they had? How many seats they gained? How much they transformed their party during their time in opposition?

    Leaving aside their periods as PM, I have no idea how one would decide if Thatcher, or Blair or whoever was the 'best' leader in opposition, so how people ranked them could be interesting. Does IDS lost points vs Corbyn because he was so useless he never even got to fight an election, whilst Corbyn got two chances?
    I'd put Wilson top of the LOTO chart.

    Since the war very few LOTOs go on to become PM, Wilson did it twice.
    Is that quite so remarkable? If you've been PM, surely that helps trying to get the job again (i.e. voters can visualise you in No 10).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    The issue with social media (especially twitter) is that people post things that work down the pub and don't understand (even after 20 years) that social media has both a potentially far wider reach than a pub and a nasty habit of living long after you've forgotten all about saying that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,908

    Vaccinations

    image
    image
    image
    image

    Is it usual in your industry to start the y axis at a big negative number?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    I know where you are coming from, but I have already forgotten his name. He’ll be fine.

    His dismissal etc is just desserts I’m afraid.
    I'm not so sure.

    It will come up on any Google now for the rest of time (which HR departments always do these days on prospective candidates) and he's commited the ultimate social crime.

    I think almost any company would baulk at that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    As LotO?
    I have literally zero opinion on Thatcher-as-LotO, except that she ultimately “won” of course.
    First female leader, working class and she won in a male dominated society specifically in a party that was living in the dark ages on both class and sex. Whatever glass ceilings existed, she shattered them. Neither Blair nor Wilson had the same barriers.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    Carry out several acts of penance.

    Perhaps working on the Marcus Rashford project to feed poor children would be a good starting point.
    Yes, that could help.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    edited July 2021

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    I know where you are coming from, but I have already forgotten his name. He’ll be fine.

    His dismissal etc is just desserts I’m afraid.
    I'm not so sure.

    It will come up on any Google now for the rest of time (which HR departments always do these days on prospective candidates) and he's commited the ultimate social crime.

    I think almost any company would baulk at that.
    A few people on Twitter were saying his feed was littered with HR unfriendly comments, not comparable to his vile racism after the game, but still not good. More
    Lad banter that would be quite fashionable in 1995
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    It’s interesting how long Corbyn actually lasted.
    What a nightmare that was.

    Corbyn - GONE. Not even inside Labour.
    Trump - GONE. Banned from social media. Likely to be charged with financial corruption.

    Just Johnson still to f*** off.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    Does it? How would one rate a leader of the opposition? By how well they held the government to account? By the ratings they had? How many seats they gained? How much they transformed their party during their time in opposition?

    Leaving aside their periods as PM, I have no idea how one would decide if Thatcher, or Blair or whoever was the 'best' leader in opposition, so how people ranked them could be interesting. Does IDS lost points vs Corbyn because he was so useless he never even got to fight an election, whilst Corbyn got two chances?
    I'd put Wilson top of the LOTO chart.

    Since the war very few LOTOs go on to become PM, Wilson did it twice.
    But its worth recalling how on a knife-edge politics was at that point, as opposed to for the past few decades.

    Do you really think Wilson gaining 14 MPs in 1974 in comparable to Cameron gaining 96 MPs in one go?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    I know where you are coming from, but I have already forgotten his name. He’ll be fine.

    His dismissal etc is just desserts I’m afraid.
    ...for what he did on sundae?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    When you log into twitter via a new device it sends alerts to your phone and email account. I strongly suspect that he has neither those alerts or said new device login email.
    The police took his computers away. All feels OTT, but I guess if someone makes this claim then the police have to investigate given that this is in the public eye.
    When a crime like this investigated they take every internet connectable device.

    A friend of mine she and her family had every phone, tablet, computer, watch, and TV taken when her son was accused of doing a bad thing.

    Left them in a right pickle for better part of two months.
    While I understand the necessity, dispossession people of their devices, particularly smartphones is quite a punishment in the modern world. Particularly traumatic for victims of sexual assaults it seems, as it cuts them off from their contacts at a vulnerable time. I see why many drop the charges.
    This was one of those messy sexting cases involving children.

    My friend's son sent a picture of his phallus to a girl he knew who had asked for it, he asked for something in return, which she sent.

    Her mother only saw the phallus picture and request for something back asked her who it was, she refused, she contacted the police thinking it was dirty old man.

    It was embarrassing for everyone concerned, the police turned up like they were about to take out an ISIS cell.

    This is where DBS checks get messy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    Simply, I wouldn't want a racist working for me. He outed himself as a racist. I don't know what he'd need to do to rehabilitate himself and I'm a firm believer in second chances.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,476

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    Yes, while these things deserve condemnation and even public recasting, lifelong loss of income is an excessively harsh punishment.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    The issue with social media (especially twitter) is that people post things that work down the pub and don't understand (even after 20 years) that social media has both a potentially far wider reach than a pub and a nasty habit of living long after you've forgotten all about saying that.
    As Ollie Robinson found out.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Great program about David Hockney. He said 'When I came back from Paris during the miners strike there were adverts all over the place telling people to only heat one room except when I got to Bradford. As if anyone in Bradford would dream of heating a room if they weren't in it"
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    I know where you are coming from, but I have already forgotten his name. He’ll be fine.

    His dismissal etc is just desserts I’m afraid.
    ...for what he did on sundae?
    It was no trifle.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    As LotO?
    I have literally zero opinion on Thatcher-as-LotO, except that she ultimately “won” of course.
    First female leader, working class and she won in a male dominated society specifically in a party that was living in the dark ages on both class and sex. Whatever glass ceilings existed, she shattered them. Neither Blair nor Wilson had the same barriers.
    I watched the first few hours of the 1979 election coverage, and what amazed me was how little attention was given to the fact that a woman was about to become PM.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like how much attention personal characteristics get these days, but it was a historic moment. What was also funny was one of the Labour pundits predicted that she wouldn't get any of her reforms implemented.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    Does it? How would one rate a leader of the opposition? By how well they held the government to account? By the ratings they had? How many seats they gained? How much they transformed their party during their time in opposition?

    Leaving aside their periods as PM, I have no idea how one would decide if Thatcher, or Blair or whoever was the 'best' leader in opposition, so how people ranked them could be interesting. Does IDS lost points vs Corbyn because he was so useless he never even got to fight an election, whilst Corbyn got two chances?
    I'd put Wilson top of the LOTO chart.

    Since the war very few LOTOs go on to become PM, Wilson did it twice.
    But its worth recalling how on a knife-edge politics was at that point, as opposed to for the past few decades.

    Do you really think Wilson gaining 14 MPs in 1974 in comparable to Cameron gaining 96 MPs in one go?
    You missed out 1964 when he gained 59 seats, gained 47 seats two years later.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    I know where you are coming from, but I have already forgotten his name. He’ll be fine.

    His dismissal etc is just desserts I’m afraid.
    ...for what he did on sundae?
    It was no trifle.
    Sweet of you to take my gag so well.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited July 2021

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    I know where you are coming from, but I have already forgotten his name. He’ll be fine.

    His dismissal etc is just desserts I’m afraid.
    ...for what he did on sundae?
    It was no trifle.
    It doies rather put the cherry on the whole affair. [Edit: depending on the actual facts, of course.]
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    I know where you are coming from, but I have already forgotten his name. He’ll be fine.

    His dismissal etc is just desserts I’m afraid.
    ...for what he did on sundae?
    It was no trifle.
    Sweet of you to take my gag so well.
    He made a right pudding of himself.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,908

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    FWIW I did speak to someone conducting polls and focus groups, they said the public have started getting scared again.

    They haven't been this scared since February, when the vaccine rollout was going full pelt.

    Over the last year or so you could match Boris Johnson's and government popularity to how scared the public felt.

    It's time to get rid of daily reporting of statistics. Roll it up into a weekly ONS release. It no longer serves any purpose other than to make people fearful for no reason. At the same point in the last wave we had 20k already in hospital and an average of around 550 deaths per day compared to about 25.

    The fear is now irrational for anyone who's had both jabs which is 35m people and rising.
    I don't think the fear is irrational. Its probably innumerate but we are used to that. The number of people in hospital shows that if you have a very small percentage that are not fully protected by the vaccines and then multiply by it very large number like 35m you get a significant number of hospital patients. The risk in the individual case is small but not non existent.
    It's closest to a fear of flying which is actually a fear of not being in control. Virtually no one dies in plane crashes and virtually no one dies of COVID after being double jabbed. The fear is that we're not in control of the plane just as we're not in control of the virus. Travelling by road is significantly riskier than flying, but very few people are scared of driving because there's some level of control over the car.

    That's where we're currently at and by marking COVID out as something special despite it now being just like any other virtual disease for the double jabbed is a driver of the fear.
    Your chances of dying of, as opposed to with, Covid are vanishingly small once double vaxxed but much more material numbers are needing hospital treatment and a lot of them will have long covid symptons for some time to come.

    We are paying the price of slow vaccination rates in May, June and now July as well. Not enough of us are double vaxxed.
    Exactly. I'm now double jabbed. I am not very likely to die of Covid now. TBH i wasn't that likely to die of it before I was jabbed. Its Long Covid that is the true horror - an indeterminate condition that can be utterly crippling with no way out that we know of.

    Posting "The fear is now irrational" is what is irrational.
    Long Covid. The last gasp of the Zero Covid squad.

    If vaccinations of the vulnerable are done and the NHS is at no risk of collapse and you still don't want to lift lockdown and dump masks because of "Long Covid" then what is your exit route from this?

    Do we remain with lockdowns forever until we have Zero Covid? And then have more lockdowns forever to prevent it resparking?
    I'm on record saying that I crave a return to normality so I'm certainly not one of the Zero Covid squad. There are two schools of thought - those who think lifting almost all restrictions in the middle of a big spike is Fucking Stupid, and those who insist that it is madness to have any concerns at all as pandemic over.

    One side has the rest of the world. The other side is you, max and the government. Nor can we hide behind the claim that Britain uniquely is more vaccinated by anyone else. No longer true.

    So no, we don't stay with "lockdowns forever". I don't anyone who is advocating that on here. What we needed to drop was the "no masks, no risk" bullshit. Which they have done.
    Its easy to claim you want a return to normality, while refusing a return to normality.

    So if you want to maintain mask mandates by force of law, then how do you plan that to be removed or is that going to stay forever? What do you want to actually be normalised now that wasn't normalised a week ago?

    As for Britain not being uniquely more vaccinated - where are you getting your data from? Besides Israel who have always been ahead and we're catching up with fast, who is more vaccinated than Britain? 🤔 Canada is catching up fast, but they're not here yet.

    image
    If you do doses per 100 population (which I think is a better measure, as it means the numbers aren't distorted by dosing strategy), then the UK looks even better: it's at 119 vs 126 for Israel. Now, the UK curve is flattening a bit on this measure, but we'd still expect it to surpass Israel this month.

  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    Carry out several acts of penance.

    Perhaps working on the Marcus Rashford project to feed poor children would be a good starting point.
    Yes, that could help.
    If he can teach Rashford how to take a penalty in time for Qatar the public might forgive him

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    Does it? How would one rate a leader of the opposition? By how well they held the government to account? By the ratings they had? How many seats they gained? How much they transformed their party during their time in opposition?

    Leaving aside their periods as PM, I have no idea how one would decide if Thatcher, or Blair or whoever was the 'best' leader in opposition, so how people ranked them could be interesting. Does IDS lost points vs Corbyn because he was so useless he never even got to fight an election, whilst Corbyn got two chances?
    I'd put Wilson top of the LOTO chart.

    Since the war very few LOTOs go on to become PM, Wilson did it twice.
    Is that quite so remarkable? If you've been PM, surely that helps trying to get the job again (i.e. voters can visualise you in No 10).
    It seems remarkable in the context of the 1970 result, nobody expected it.

    Although you can blame a football match for it.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    As LotO?
    I have literally zero opinion on Thatcher-as-LotO, except that she ultimately “won” of course.
    First female leader, working class and she won in a male dominated society specifically in a party that was living in the dark ages on both class and sex. Whatever glass ceilings existed, she shattered them. Neither Blair nor Wilson had the same barriers.
    Fair point but wasn't Wilson the first state school educated PM?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,672
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    Yes, while these things deserve condemnation and even public recasting, lifelong loss of income is an excessively harsh punishment.
    No one should have their life destroyed for saying "a word"

    Utterly ridiculous. We have gone mad

    I used to compare our neurotic obsession with race to the weirdness of Victorian attitudes to sex (covering up naughty chair legs, etc)

    I now think we are crazier than the Victorians
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    Does it? How would one rate a leader of the opposition? By how well they held the government to account? By the ratings they had? How many seats they gained? How much they transformed their party during their time in opposition?

    Leaving aside their periods as PM, I have no idea how one would decide if Thatcher, or Blair or whoever was the 'best' leader in opposition, so how people ranked them could be interesting. Does IDS lost points vs Corbyn because he was so useless he never even got to fight an election, whilst Corbyn got two chances?
    I'd put Wilson top of the LOTO chart.

    Since the war very few LOTOs go on to become PM, Wilson did it twice.
    But its worth recalling how on a knife-edge politics was at that point, as opposed to for the past few decades.

    Do you really think Wilson gaining 14 MPs in 1974 in comparable to Cameron gaining 96 MPs in one go?
    You missed out 1964 when he gained 59 seats, gained 47 seats two years later.
    Two years later doesn't count since it was as PM, not as LOTO.

    64 certainly counts but does that really trump Blair or Cameron?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited July 2021

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    As LotO?
    I have literally zero opinion on Thatcher-as-LotO, except that she ultimately “won” of course.
    First female leader, working class and she won in a male dominated society specifically in a party that was living in the dark ages on both class and sex. Whatever glass ceilings existed, she shattered them. Neither Blair nor Wilson had the same barriers.
    Fair point but wasn't Wilson the first state school educated PM?
    Ramsay MacDonald surely, unless you don't think that the Free Kirk parish school qualifies - but I am not up to being able to say how far if at all it was subsidised by the state at that time.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    As LotO?
    I have literally zero opinion on Thatcher-as-LotO, except that she ultimately “won” of course.
    First female leader, working class and she won in a male dominated society specifically in a party that was living in the dark ages on both class and sex. Whatever glass ceilings existed, she shattered them. Neither Blair nor Wilson had the same barriers.
    Fair point but wasn't Wilson the first state school educated PM?
    Who'd have thunk that we'd still be waiting for a PM who went to a comp (and, no, Theresa May doesn't count).
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    edited July 2021
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    As LotO?
    I have literally zero opinion on Thatcher-as-LotO, except that she ultimately “won” of course.
    First female leader, working class and she won in a male dominated society specifically in a party that was living in the dark ages on both class and sex. Whatever glass ceilings existed, she shattered them. Neither Blair nor Wilson had the same barriers.
    Fair point but wasn't Wilson the first state school educated PM?
    Who'd have thunk that we'd still be waiting for a PM who went to a comp (and, no, Theresa May doesn't count).
    John Major?
    Edit: No, apparently he passed the 11+
    But he only got 3 O Levels.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    FWIW I did speak to someone conducting polls and focus groups, they said the public have started getting scared again.

    They haven't been this scared since February, when the vaccine rollout was going full pelt.

    Over the last year or so you could match Boris Johnson's and government popularity to how scared the public felt.

    It's time to get rid of daily reporting of statistics. Roll it up into a weekly ONS release. It no longer serves any purpose other than to make people fearful for no reason. At the same point in the last wave we had 20k already in hospital and an average of around 550 deaths per day compared to about 25.

    The fear is now irrational for anyone who's had both jabs which is 35m people and rising.
    I don't think the fear is irrational. Its probably innumerate but we are used to that. The number of people in hospital shows that if you have a very small percentage that are not fully protected by the vaccines and then multiply by it very large number like 35m you get a significant number of hospital patients. The risk in the individual case is small but not non existent.
    It's closest to a fear of flying which is actually a fear of not being in control. Virtually no one dies in plane crashes and virtually no one dies of COVID after being double jabbed. The fear is that we're not in control of the plane just as we're not in control of the virus. Travelling by road is significantly riskier than flying, but very few people are scared of driving because there's some level of control over the car.

    That's where we're currently at and by marking COVID out as something special despite it now being just like any other virtual disease for the double jabbed is a driver of the fear.
    Your chances of dying of, as opposed to with, Covid are vanishingly small once double vaxxed but much more material numbers are needing hospital treatment and a lot of them will have long covid symptons for some time to come.

    We are paying the price of slow vaccination rates in May, June and now July as well. Not enough of us are double vaxxed.
    Exactly. I'm now double jabbed. I am not very likely to die of Covid now. TBH i wasn't that likely to die of it before I was jabbed. Its Long Covid that is the true horror - an indeterminate condition that can be utterly crippling with no way out that we know of.

    Posting "The fear is now irrational" is what is irrational.
    Long Covid.
    Did you see Boris in today's PMQs? Compare him today to him back in 2019 and tell me that Covid doesn't have long term side effects.

    Boris has always been a bit goofy.

    But he was on a sticky wicket in today's PMQ's as so many of his MPs have taken the wrong side in a culture war and he knows it. Dickheads like HYUFD's MP counterpart Elphicke and others really gave Starmer an open goal today and Boris knew it.
    It is more than that, surely. Boris at PMQs delivered his last question rant to SKS a question early, and appeared to completely misunderstand a later question on vaccinating schoolchildren. And these things happen regularly at PMQs and when answering questions at Covid pressers.

    Where I differ from other Boris-sceptic PBers is I do not think he will be ousted but rather will step down before the next general election, Harold Wilson-like.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    As LotO?
    I have literally zero opinion on Thatcher-as-LotO, except that she ultimately “won” of course.
    First female leader, working class and she won in a male dominated society specifically in a party that was living in the dark ages on both class and sex. Whatever glass ceilings existed, she shattered them. Neither Blair nor Wilson had the same barriers.
    Fair point but wasn't Wilson the first state school educated PM?
    Ramsay MacDonald surely, unless you don't think that the Free Kirk parish school qualifies - but I am not up to being able to say how far if at all it was subsidised by the state at that time.
    That's correct. It was just that I remembered that it was a big deal that Wilson and Heath were both ex grammar school when they faced each other.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    Yes, while these things deserve condemnation and even public recasting, lifelong loss of income is an excessively harsh punishment.
    No one should have their life destroyed for saying "a word"

    Utterly ridiculous. We have gone mad

    I used to compare our neurotic obsession with race to the weirdness of Victorian attitudes to sex (covering up naughty chair legs, etc)

    I now think we are crazier than the Victorians
    Why would anyone hire him? He's effectively taken himself out of the running for the vast majority of jobs by being a racist knobhead. I'm a hiring manager, it would be very difficult to convince me to hire this idiot even to a trivial admin role.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hard to score this, it’s from some academic survey. Howard is too low; Miliband too high!


    Lol, imagine not having Mrs Thatcher in first place. Shows everything that's wrong with the lefty liberals that have infested universities.
    Does it? How would one rate a leader of the opposition? By how well they held the government to account? By the ratings they had? How many seats they gained? How much they transformed their party during their time in opposition?

    Leaving aside their periods as PM, I have no idea how one would decide if Thatcher, or Blair or whoever was the 'best' leader in opposition, so how people ranked them could be interesting. Does IDS lost points vs Corbyn because he was so useless he never even got to fight an election, whilst Corbyn got two chances?
    I'd put Wilson top of the LOTO chart.

    Since the war very few LOTOs go on to become PM, Wilson did it twice.
    But its worth recalling how on a knife-edge politics was at that point, as opposed to for the past few decades.

    Do you really think Wilson gaining 14 MPs in 1974 in comparable to Cameron gaining 96 MPs in one go?
    You missed out 1964 when he gained 59 seats, gained 47 seats two years later.
    Two years later doesn't count since it was as PM, not as LOTO.

    64 certainly counts but does that really trump Blair or Cameron?
    Context is everything.

    He took over whilst the Labour Party was still reeling from the death of Hugh Gaitskell and a year later delivered a majority Labour government.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Colin Angus
    @VictimOfMaths
    ·
    10h
    I was a bit sceptical at first, but I'm increasingly convinced that the gender gap that has emerged in COVID cases in 20-39 year-olds in England is a direct consequence of the football.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Extraordinary or perhaps not so extraordinary item on BBC news website about the NHS app. Basically, as it has done so often throughout the pandemic, the Beeb acting as a government information outlet.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    edited July 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    Yes, while these things deserve condemnation and even public recasting, lifelong loss of income is an excessively harsh punishment.
    No one should have their life destroyed for saying "a word"

    Utterly ridiculous. We have gone mad

    I used to compare our neurotic obsession with race to the weirdness of Victorian attitudes to sex (covering up naughty chair legs, etc)

    I now think we are crazier than the Victorians
    Why would anyone hire him? He's effectively taken himself out of the running for the vast majority of jobs by being a racist knobhead. I'm a hiring manager, it would be very difficult to convince me to hire this idiot even to a trivial admin role.
    In our industry he's going to struggle to pass a DBS.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Colin Angus
    @VictimOfMaths
    ·
    10h
    I was a bit sceptical at first, but I'm increasingly convinced that the gender gap that has emerged in COVID cases in 20-39 year-olds in England is a direct consequence of the football.

    We had a whacking great one in Scotland. Massive.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    An edge case in "should people be sacked for their personal opinions".

    How does this compare with racists attacking the England team on Twitter?

    Tala Halawa, the "Hitler was Right" sackee from BBC Monitoring is being a little .. er .. unrepentant:
    https://twitter.com/HalawaTala/status/1415269328560218119

    8<

    There were rather more than the one:

    8<

    An example is the Saville's Manager who is currently suspended and under police investigation.
    He's claiming his account was hacked. Not sure how likely that is, but I did wonder just how dumb someone would have to be to have an identifiable Twitter account and a Linkedin account and to say what he said. But then people do stupid things, especially if they've had a bit to drink.
    His remarks were disgusting and indefensible but at some level I feel sorry for him.

    Given his public notoriety will he ever be able to find work again now? How does he rehabilitate?
    Yes, while these things deserve condemnation and even public recasting, lifelong loss of income is an excessively harsh punishment.
    No one should have their life destroyed for saying "a word"

    Utterly ridiculous. We have gone mad

    I used to compare our neurotic obsession with race to the weirdness of Victorian attitudes to sex (covering up naughty chair legs, etc)

    I now think we are crazier than the Victorians
    Why would anyone hire him? He's effectively taken himself out of the running for the vast majority of jobs by being a racist knobhead. I'm a hiring manager, it would be very difficult to convince me to hire this idiot even to a trivial admin role.
    I would not knowingly hire him, obvs.
    Mostly for the racism but also for the screaming level of stupidity.

    But he “just” needs to change his name (not even legally, just for CVs), and probably leave Essex.
This discussion has been closed.