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Some of the front pages following BoJo’s big COVID gamble – politicalbetting.com

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,452
    edited July 2021
    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    I don’t want to harp on, but Clarkson’s Farm has quite extraordinary ratings

    2300 Google reviews. Average: 5/5

    9.3 on IMDB

    100% on Rotten Tomatoes

    He’s a comic genius, and in this show he injects some pathos as well

    The Guardian gave it 1 star. Lol

    Season Two already in the works....
    A lot of people really don’t understand Jeremy Clarkson. He’s got far more depth than most of his knee jerk critics give him credit for. I also never get the impression that he takes himself too seriously, which is always a sign that he’s putting on something of an act.
    It is actually why Clarkson Farm is really good. The recent years of really really really OTT stupid crap that was too much of the Grand Tour is gone. Yes there is still "oh I made a woopshie" that are setups for the show, oh I bought too big a tractor, silly me, laugh of what an idiot I am.

    But a large bulk of the show is actually him having to be himself and it is far more real. He isn't dicking about when he is doing the lambing or harvesting. There isn't him accidentally driving a Bentley through the barn as they are trying to sort out the sheep giving birth. And the farm workers, they are real people, genuinely funny "characters", who worked that farm for years, not Hammond and May who morphed from motoring journalist to actors.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    It's actually funnier than that. Communism is scientifically proven not to work - and not just by practical demonstration.

    Humans are non-linear in behaviour. Basic chaos theory shows that trying to completely predict/control non-linear systems is doomed - see the butterfly effect. Therefore Communist style central control of society can't work.
    But perhaps can in the short term... see my other post...
    "War Socialism" works, for a time, because enough people in society force themselves to fit the linear goals of the planners. Temporarily. Then it either breaks down, or compulsion is required.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    I've just finished an interesting book about the execution of Ethel Rosenberg. Whether or not they represent the communists you're talking about I don't know but that wasn't the thinking of the many -mainly Jewish communists -in New York in the 40's early 50's. There vision was much more utopian. More hippyish in fact. Their existential threat was very real. The fascists and anti semites in America First among others
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    edited July 2021
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, Iceland is now at 88% of adults with at least one vaccine dose, and that increased by no less than 5% last week, so they may manage the record for least vaccine hesitancy.

    Wouldn't surprise me if a Nordic country ended up with the highest rates. They tend to be quite sensible.
    Nordic areas usually end up tops. Hence this

    https://twitter.com/terriblemaps/status/1279105306371534855
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,921
    Gnud said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Plus, ultimately, once a vaccine has been offered to all adults, then those that end up with Covid... well, that's really their problem.

    What does that mean? Deny them access to intensive care?

    Should the same logic be applied to smokers who get lung cancer, or to fatarses who stuff their mouths with too much pasta and cake and get heart disease?
    No,

    It means that once everybody has been vaccinated, then we need to reopen. Sure, there may be some residual restrictions, such as masks on public transport, but by-and-large, once everyone has been offered a vaccine, then there shouldn't be restrictions.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,452
    edited July 2021
    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

    She is a loony. She says in her opinion the only way to end this pandemic and to protect against a future pandemic, it to completely rip up our current society and start again.

    That isn't quite well I think perhaps wearing a mask is better than not type discussion.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

    She is a loony. She says the only way to end this pandemic and to protect against a future pandemic, it to completely rip up our current society and start again.
    People with a view like that are always working backwards from their conclusion.

    I get it - designing a new world is simpler than managing the real one.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

    Would you have a problem if there was a far-right supporter on this committee?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    It's actually funnier than that. Communism is scientifically proven not to work - and not just by practical demonstration.

    Humans are non-linear in behaviour. Basic chaos theory shows that trying to completely predict/control non-linear systems is doomed - see the butterfly effect. Therefore Communist style central control of society can't work.
    But perhaps can in the short term... see my other post...
    "War Socialism" works, for a time, because enough people in society force themselves to fit the linear goals of the planners. Temporarily. Then it either breaks down, or compulsion is required.
    Yes, but as I suggested, it does raise the interesting possibility that she is actually on SAGE because she is a Communist, and not despite it. So when she tries to imply her appearances on TV and presence on SAGE are because of her scientific knowledge rather her political views, it maybe that almost the exact opposite is the case.
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    So which is it - she knows about behavioural psychology or she doesn't?

    Wasn't "The Human Condition" a novel by an army general-turned-political strongman's "information minister" and then culture minister?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    I don’t want to harp on, but Clarkson’s Farm has quite extraordinary ratings

    2300 Google reviews. Average: 5/5

    9.3 on IMDB

    100% on Rotten Tomatoes

    He’s a comic genius, and in this show he injects some pathos as well

    The Guardian gave it 1 star. Lol

    Season Two already in the works....
    A lot of people really don’t understand Jeremy Clarkson. He’s got far more depth than most of his knee jerk critics give him credit for. I also never get the impression that he takes himself too seriously, which is always a sign that he’s putting on something of an act.
    It is actually why Clarkson Farm is really good. The recent years of really really really OTT stupid crap that was too much of the Grand Tour is gone. Yes there is still "oh I made a woopshie" that are setups for the show, oh I bought too big a tractor, silly me, laugh of what an idiot I am.

    But a large bulk of the show is actually him having to be himself and it is far more real. He isn't dicking about when he is doing the lambing or harvesting. There isn't him accidentally driving a Bentley through the barn as they are trying to sort out the sheep giving birth. And the farm workers, they are real people, genuinely funny "characters", who worked that farm for years, not Hammond and May who morphed from motoring journalist to actors.

    Yes, he’s proved that Top Gear wasn’t some peculiar miracle. He’s just very very good at TV, extremely funny - and much more likeable on this show without, as you say, the increasingly idiotic and stagey pranks of Top Gear and TGT

    And amazon have, indeed, one of the biggest shows of the year, anywhere. And it probably cost peanuts. Just film some old guy with a tractor…

    The public reviews are remarkable. Near universal acclaim

    And on that note, I’m off to watch episode 5. Buenas noches, PB
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Any Star reader know who Clueless Pointless and ludicrous blokes refer to? Are they all Johnsons?

  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    alex_ said:

    Gnud said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Plus, ultimately, once a vaccine has been offered to all adults, then those that end up with Covid... well, that's really their problem.

    What does that mean? Deny them access to intensive care?

    Should the same logic be applied to smokers who get lung cancer, or to fatarses who stuff their mouths with too much pasta and cake and get heart disease?
    No it means that society shouldn’t be reordered to protect them.
    OK, but currently when a person needs intensive care their need is considered to be society's problem and not just their own problem, regardless of their lifestyle, politics, or previous behaviour. Putting an end to that approach would constitute a big social change.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Roger said:

    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    I've just finished an interesting book about the execution of Ethel Rosenberg. Whether or not they represent the communists you're talking about I don't know but that wasn't the thinking of the many -mainly Jewish communists -in New York in the 40's early 50's. There vision was much more utopian. More hippyish in fact. Their existential threat was very real. The fascists and anti semites in America First among others
    Many communists start off with utopian/idealistic intentions. Many will genuinely try to live their lives in some consistency with those ideals. The problems arise when they move outside of their small communities and into positions of real power, and they run into the issues that their ideals aren’t widely shared and/or quite as easy to put/mandate into widespread practice... And the need to put into place institutions of control and coercion or worse starts to become apparent. And they end up every bit as bad as the fascists and anti-semites, even if starting from different ideological starting points.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Gnud said:

    alex_ said:

    Gnud said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Plus, ultimately, once a vaccine has been offered to all adults, then those that end up with Covid... well, that's really their problem.

    What does that mean? Deny them access to intensive care?

    Should the same logic be applied to smokers who get lung cancer, or to fatarses who stuff their mouths with too much pasta and cake and get heart disease?
    No it means that society shouldn’t be reordered to protect them.
    OK, but currently when a person needs intensive care their need is considered to be society's problem and not just their own problem, regardless of their lifestyle, politics, or previous behaviour. Putting an end to that approach would constitute a big social change.
    That is the current order of society.

    It doesn't require change.

    I am massively allergic to NSAIDs. Ironically, the only organisation which has administered them to me despite being made aware of my allergy was our health service.

    Do you think no-one should be given NSAIDs because I am allergic? That would be ridiculous.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    Gnud said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Plus, ultimately, once a vaccine has been offered to all adults, then those that end up with Covid... well, that's really their problem.

    What does that mean? Deny them access to intensive care?

    Should the same logic be applied to smokers who get lung cancer, or to fatarses who stuff their mouths with too much pasta and cake and get heart disease?
    No, it just means the fact they got Covid in the first place was their own fault because they didn't get vaccinated.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Andy_JS said:

    Gnud said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Plus, ultimately, once a vaccine has been offered to all adults, then those that end up with Covid... well, that's really their problem.

    What does that mean? Deny them access to intensive care?

    Should the same logic be applied to smokers who get lung cancer, or to fatarses who stuff their mouths with too much pasta and cake and get heart disease?
    No, it just means the fact they got Covid in the first place was their own fault because they didn't get vaccinated.
    What about those that can't get it for medical reasons?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    edited July 2021
    Roger said:

    Any Star reader know who Clueless Pointless and ludicrous blokes refer to? Are they all Johnsons?

    Dominic Cummings supported Boris Johnson to stop Jeremy Corbyn.

    (It relates to something Cummings published today on Substack.)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,452
    edited July 2021
    I notice another new goal posting shifting is to talk about percentage of UK population (not just adults) who have been vaccinated, thus making it sound much lower....and of course we can't open up until (insert high %) of the population have been vaccinated. Ashworth was doing it on Newsnight, saying only 50% have been vaccinated, totally irresponsible given such low % vaccinated, yadda yadda.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    The lady from Sage is correct. It's very bad practice to ask something which serves no purpose other than to off balance the interviewee,

    If she'd been sharper she might have asked him how his shoplifting informed his interviewing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,452
    Andy_JS said:

    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

    Would you have a problem if there was a far-right supporter on this committee?
    I wonder what the reaction would be if a member of SAGE used their platform to advocate that the only way we can beat pandemics is to remove all immigrants and to protect against future pandemics, ban all future inward migration?

    I think they would be out of their role by the end of the day.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575

    I notice another new goal posting shifting is to talk about percentage of UK population (not just adults) who have been vaccinated, thus making it sound much lower....and of course we can't open up until (insert high %) of the population have been vaccinated. Ashworth was doing it on Newsnight, saying only 50% have been vaccinated, totally irresponsible given such low % vaccinated, yadda yadda.

    One problem is that if we ever do decide to vaccinate secondary schoolchildren, the easiest place to do it would be at school but school summer holidays start in a fortnight or so.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Roger said:

    The lady from Sage is correct. It's very bad practice to ask something which serves no purpose other than to off balance the interviewee,

    If she'd been sharper she might have asked him how his shoplifting informed his interviewing.

    I am sure you would feel exactly the same had it been a BNP member for 40 years.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575

    Andy_JS said:

    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

    Would you have a problem if there was a far-right supporter on this committee?
    I wonder what the reaction would be if a member of SAGE used their platform to advocate that the only way we can beat pandemics is to remove all immigrants and to protect against future pandemics, ban all future inward migration?

    I think they would be out of their role by the end of the day.
    No doubt they would but at a more moderate and realistic level, we have had red list countries without anyone being sacked. Every night we get the same pile-on to Professor Michie, normally triggered by a well-lunched @Leon (photographic evidence provided).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Aslan said:

    Roger said:

    The lady from Sage is correct. It's very bad practice to ask something which serves no purpose other than to off balance the interviewee,

    If she'd been sharper she might have asked him how his shoplifting informed his interviewing.

    I am sure you would feel exactly the same had it been a BNP member for 40 years.
    Actually you're wrong. It always feels cheap and the good interviewers don't need to do it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,452
    edited July 2021

    Andy_JS said:

    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

    Would you have a problem if there was a far-right supporter on this committee?
    I wonder what the reaction would be if a member of SAGE used their platform to advocate that the only way we can beat pandemics is to remove all immigrants and to protect against future pandemics, ban all future inward migration?

    I think they would be out of their role by the end of the day.
    No doubt they would but at a more moderate and realistic level, we have had red list countries without anyone being sacked. Every night we get the same pile-on to Professor Michie, normally triggered by a well-lunched @Leon (photographic evidence provided).
    That's random travel, not immigration. And you have always been able to travel if you are coming to start a job e.g. we had the Eastern Europeans come to do their usual farm work throughout all the valious restrictions.
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 2021

    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

    Would you say the same about a leftwing fear of fascism?
    I don't think that's on the rise on the left. But as far as I know I don't have any biases that would stop me from recognising it if it were. There are a few people such as Piers Corbyn for sure, but he supported Trump in both 2016 and 2020.

    What is the reason for the right's currently increasing concern about "communism"? It's not as if a movement for left or left-liberal social reform is about to make huge strides forward.

    What may happen is that the economy may crash and you have, on the one side, the right wanting to clear the decks (Malthusian and Social Darwinist gloves off time), and on the other, reactive support outside of the gated compounds for a social safety-net (denounced by the former as traitorous, communist, stupid, wicked, anti-scientific, innumerate, and against human nature - and of course "ideological").
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    Exactly what I said at the time, as a Remain supporter. I kept waiting for the political broadcast that was going to feature sweeping aerial shots of Rome, Paris, Barcelona, Lisbon, etc, to make everyone feel warm and positive about Europe. It never happened.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    The problem with the EU is that the reality of the institution never lived up to its ideals.
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    Added to Susan "Communist Party" Michie. there's also Michael Gove, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, who cites Antonio Gramsci [*] as one of his main inspirers! Bloody pinko! And so close to the heart of the state too.

    Note
    (*) It says a lot about Gramsci that Piero Sraffa, fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge - albeit brought to Cambridge by a world-famous bursar of King's - was such a mate of his.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    Potential French presidential candidate says that Northern Italy should have been French and there’s no difference between Nice and Milan.

    https://twitter.com/cnews/status/1412097738699857920
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,452
    edited July 2021
    Gnud said:

    Added to Susan "Communist Party" Michie. there's also Michael Gove, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, who cites Antonio Gramsci [*] as one of his main inspirers! Bloody pinko! And so close to the heart of the state too.

    Note
    (*) It says a lot about Gramsci that Piero Sraffa, fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge - albeit brought to Cambridge by a world-famous bursar of King's - was such a mate of his.

    As you well know, he cited him specifically in context as inspiration for value of the working class being properly educated, nothing to do with wanting to implement a Marxist state.

    Gnud...D-, must try harder
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 2021
    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    Agreed. The Remain campaign had little in the way of a unifying theme or positive message. But it wasn't just during the referendum campaign that the cultural and romantic and other positive aspects of Europe were ignored. They had been ignored ever since the 1970s. By 2016 there had been 40 years of "Oeufs off, Delors" during which hardly anyone contested the media portrayal of "the EU" as basically a foreign power - e.g. there were stories about Thatcher or Blair or Cameron or whoever "standing up to the EU", or having a crunch meeting with the EU, and so on. The EU was hardly ever described as "we".

    Meanwhile the sports teams of many other EU member states - powerful ones such as France and Germany as well as minor ones - were waving the EU flag along with their own national flags at sports events.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Roger said:

    The lady from Sage is correct. It's very bad practice to ask something which serves no purpose other than to off balance the interviewee,

    If she'd been sharper she might have asked him how his shoplifting informed his interviewing.

    Except it is absolutely relevant, because she has been using her platform to call for radical reshaping of society. She hasn't just stuck to "the science", she has used her platform to push her political agenda in other interviews, in a way that most members of SAGE try extremely hard never to inject any of their politics into.
    The solution is simple, which is that the people actually advising the government on the SAGE group, be subject to the SpAd rules. They are civil servants, who don’t speak in public.

    If someone wishes to resign from said committee, in order to oppose the government in public, then that is their perogative.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    edited July 2021
    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    Dan Hannan said it well. It’s possible to love Europe but dislike the EU, in the same way it’s possible to love football but dislike FIFA.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,921
    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    Dan Hannan said it well. It’s possible to love Europe but dislike the EU, in the same way it’s possible to love football but dislike FIFA.
    Is it possible to love football and FIFA?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    edited July 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    Dan Hannan said it well. It’s possible to love Europe but dislike the EU, in the same way it’s possible to love football but dislike FIFA.
    Is it possible to love football and FIFA?
    If you’re the [random African nation] representative on the board of FIFA, then very much so. Many gold watches and diamond rings...

    Well, if the World Cups are going to be in Russia and Qatar...
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Potential French presidential candidate says that Northern Italy should have been French and there’s no difference between Nice and Milan.

    https://twitter.com/cnews/status/1412097738699857920

    Well it was Gallia Cisalpina back in the day.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    edited July 2021
    Aslan said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    The problem with the EU is that the reality of the institution never lived up to its ideals.
    Yes, but Remain could still have won the referendum by making it all about those beautiful destinations in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Greece, etc, and how we couldn't possibly take a negative attitude towards those places. Whoever ran the Remain campaign got it 100% wrong by making it about economics, finance, etc.
  • Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    Dan Hannan said it well. It’s possible to love Europe but dislike the EU, in the same way it’s possible to love football but dislike FIFA.
    What Daniel Hannan got so wrong (as ever) is that many members of the EU have little love for it. It's something he and those nutjobs like him never understood. When the French or Germans don't like something Brussels says, they do their own thing anyway.

    Just because you don't always like the decisions doesn't mean you have to stop supporting the club.

    Ask any Spurs fan.
  • Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    Indeed.

    I was thinking the same thing yesterday whilst out hiking. The EU should have love-bombed the UK. Offered sweeteners (bribes) and really gone big on the incentives.

    As ever though they went for the stick approach instead of the carrot.

    Lo and behold, this morning up pops an article on that very same theme about the EU's failure to sink the City of London.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/07/05/eu-plot-destroy-city-has-catastrophic-failure/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593
    Andy_JS said:

    Aslan said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    The problem with the EU is that the reality of the institution never lived up to its ideals.
    Yes, but Remain could still have won the referendum by making it all about those beautiful destinations in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Greece, etc, and how we couldn't possibly take a negative attitude towards those places. Whoever ran the Remain campaign got it 100% wrong by making it about economics, finance, etc.

    I disagree. For me, the big surprise of the referendum was that it was so close. I think that it only was because a lot of people were concerned about the economic and financial risks associated with leaving. Isn't Paris lovely, aren't the Spanish nice would have had no cut through against a promise to retake control of our borders and reduce immigration. Leave would have won far more heavily.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    I don't see why that would have helped. Paris or Venice or Barcelona are just as nice whether we're in the EU or not. And there are plenty of places outside the EU (for my money Istanbul, Luzern, Rio) which are just as nice, but which we don't subsidise with billions a year.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Aslan said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    The problem with the EU is that the reality of the institution never lived up to its ideals.
    Yes, but Remain could still have won the referendum by making it all about those beautiful destinations in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Greece, etc, and how we couldn't possibly take a negative attitude towards those places. Whoever ran the Remain campaign got it 100% wrong by making it about economics, finance, etc.

    I disagree. For me, the big surprise of the referendum was that it was so close. I think that it only was because a lot of people were concerned about the economic and financial risks associated with leaving. Isn't Paris lovely, aren't the Spanish nice would have had no cut through against a promise to retake control of our borders and reduce immigration. Leave would have won far more heavily.

    It was close (and still is) because a significant number of people in the UK realise that the economic benefits of remaining were significant. Money talks which is why the EU should have love-bombed us.

    Apart from subtle incentives they could have gone all out with bribes. So, e.g.:

    Vote Remain and you get a €100 voucher per person to spend on a holiday anywhere in the EU. Things like that. The EU is great at dishing out euros to far flung parts of its empire.

    That's a nice crude example of what could, and should, have been a massive drive to keep us in.

    The simple fact is that the EU had grown tired of the UK.
  • Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    I don't see why that would have helped. Paris or Venice or Barcelona are just as nice whether we're in the EU or not. And there are plenty of places outside the EU (for my money Istanbul, Luzern, Rio) which are just as nice, but which we don't subsidise with billions a year.
    It's a harder to travel now between the EU and UK, regardless of covid I mean. It's very much harder to stay for an extended period.

    I can see Leon's point that parts of Europe are lovely and it's pretty benign, which I think was the essence of his argument.

    For me? Europe is a bit tame. I like to travel to places that are a little more exotic, especially out east.

    And apart from the Canary Islands and Madeira, European winters are cold which I hate. Give me Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Pacific islands, any day.
  • Labour have once again managed to take completely the wrong side about lifting restrictions. They just come across as 'there you go again' boring killjoys. Jabbering on the sidelines every time someone is tackled instead of celebrating the goals. It's interesting that there are a few dissenting voices like the libertarian Ben Bradshaw.

    The problem they face is that in 3 years time Johnson will tell the nation that if Labour were in charge you'd all still be in lockdown.

    It's a huge mistake by Labour.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947

    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    I don't see why that would have helped. Paris or Venice or Barcelona are just as nice whether we're in the EU or not. And there are plenty of places outside the EU (for my money Istanbul, Luzern, Rio) which are just as nice, but which we don't subsidise with billions a year.
    It's a harder to travel now between the EU and UK, regardless of covid I mean. It's very much harder to stay for an extended period.

    I can see Leon's point that parts of Europe are lovely and it's pretty benign, which I think was the essence of his argument.

    For me? Europe is a bit tame. I like to travel to places that are a little more exotic, especially out east.

    And apart from the Canary Islands and Madeira, European winters are cold which I hate. Give me Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Pacific islands, any day.
    It is of course true that it is much harder now to lounge around Europe forever, but I think over-emphasising that goal might have appealed to wealthy, upper-middle-class cosmopolitan Remainers. But I doubt it would have moved the needle much in middle England, and may even have put lots of people off.

    I agree about long-haul travel - I tend to prefer it too and indeed am off on such a trip tomorrow.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,890

    I notice another new goal posting shifting is to talk about percentage of UK population (not just adults) who have been vaccinated, thus making it sound much lower....and of course we can't open up until (insert high %) of the population have been vaccinated. Ashworth was doing it on Newsnight, saying only 50% have been vaccinated, totally irresponsible given such low % vaccinated, yadda yadda.

    It's not a reason to not open up, which should be about % of over 50 double varied but it might get some pushback on the MHRA/JCVI discrepancy if Labour start going after this line.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593

    Andy_JS said:

    Aslan said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    The problem with the EU is that the reality of the institution never lived up to its ideals.
    Yes, but Remain could still have won the referendum by making it all about those beautiful destinations in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Greece, etc, and how we couldn't possibly take a negative attitude towards those places. Whoever ran the Remain campaign got it 100% wrong by making it about economics, finance, etc.

    I disagree. For me, the big surprise of the referendum was that it was so close. I think that it only was because a lot of people were concerned about the economic and financial risks associated with leaving. Isn't Paris lovely, aren't the Spanish nice would have had no cut through against a promise to retake control of our borders and reduce immigration. Leave would have won far more heavily.

    It was close (and still is) because a significant number of people in the UK realise that the economic benefits of remaining were significant. Money talks which is why the EU should have love-bombed us.

    Apart from subtle incentives they could have gone all out with bribes. So, e.g.:

    Vote Remain and you get a €100 voucher per person to spend on a holiday anywhere in the EU. Things like that. The EU is great at dishing out euros to far flung parts of its empire.

    That's a nice crude example of what could, and should, have been a massive drive to keep us in.

    The simple fact is that the EU had grown tired of the UK.

    From the conversations I had with people inside the Commission around the time of the referendum they clearly did not believe we would vote to leave. Like Cameron, they believed it was not possible. But even if they had, I am not sure it would have changed much. They wanted us to remain, but not that much. They'll be fine without us as we were never a very positive force.

  • Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    I don't see why that would have helped. Paris or Venice or Barcelona are just as nice whether we're in the EU or not. And there are plenty of places outside the EU (for my money Istanbul, Luzern, Rio) which are just as nice, but which we don't subsidise with billions a year.
    It's a harder to travel now between the EU and UK, regardless of covid I mean. It's very much harder to stay for an extended period.

    I can see Leon's point that parts of Europe are lovely and it's pretty benign, which I think was the essence of his argument.

    For me? Europe is a bit tame. I like to travel to places that are a little more exotic, especially out east.

    And apart from the Canary Islands and Madeira, European winters are cold which I hate. Give me Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Pacific islands, any day.
    It is of course true that it is much harder now to lounge around Europe forever, but I think over-emphasising that goal might have appealed to wealthy, upper-middle-class cosmopolitan Remainers. But I doubt it would have moved the needle much in middle England, and may even have put lots of people off.

    I agree about long-haul travel - I tend to prefer it too and indeed am off on such a trip tomorrow.
    Oh wow. Can I ask where you are headed? How wonderful.

    There are quite of lot of northerners to be found on the sun loungers of southern Europe ... :wink:
  • Pulpstar said:

    I notice another new goal posting shifting is to talk about percentage of UK population (not just adults) who have been vaccinated, thus making it sound much lower....and of course we can't open up until (insert high %) of the population have been vaccinated. Ashworth was doing it on Newsnight, saying only 50% have been vaccinated, totally irresponsible given such low % vaccinated, yadda yadda.

    It's not a reason to not open up, which should be about % of over 50 double varied but it might get some pushback on the MHRA/JCVI discrepancy if Labour start going after this line.
    Yes I've been noticing this discrepancy for a long time. WHO / Bloomberg / NYT / Our World in Data all use different measures, including the bizarre looking one of e.g '125 vaccines per 100 people' which just looks weird.

    % of population is in fact a better measure if we leave politics out of this. Why? Because like much, though not all, of the EU we should be vaccinating our children. It's madness not to.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    Hear hear.

    Sky News have been execrable on this pandemic. Just appalling knee-jerk "Breaking Bullshit" day after day after day.

    Life is much better if you switch it off.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703

    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

    Would you say the same about a leftwing fear of fascism?
    I think that's interesting.

    The current left-wing tactic for some seems to be to label anything not-liked as "Fascist", and I would say that the common factor is where X is believed to need to be attacked, rather than political views. Rather like Corbyn's movement labelling things (eg Polly Toynbee) as a "Tory" to make themselves appear more acceptable.

    On Euro-Twitter labelling the current UK Govt "fascist" seems to be a coping mechanism.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited July 2021

    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    Hear hear.

    Sky News have been execrable on this pandemic. Just appalling knee-jerk "Breaking Bullshit" day after day after day.

    Life is much better if you switch it off.
    I listened to the Parliamentary version. A bit of a bunfight and some haggis throwing from Philippa Whitford, but relatively restrained and clear about political positions.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Although 50 000 cases a day won't do much for the economic recovery if we have 100's of thousands off work and not spending because they are at home in bed.
    Some people are still getting quite sick if not bad enough for hospital. Even when double vaxxed.
    That is cases not illness - they might be locked up but not necessarily ill. I keep pointing out to people I know that this is a strange easy to measure but I seem to be the only one bothered
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited July 2021
    And now for something completely different. Some may agree with this. Many may not. But here goes.

    I think the way Wimbledon handled Emma Raducanu is disgraceful. And I write this as someone who was there last week and who had the opportunity to buy a pair of tickets to watch her match yesterday (which I turned down).

    I've worked with children all my life and however mature many sixth form girls seem, they're really not at that age. She's 18. She is not a big tournament player. This is her first. She was not groomed for big time tennis. She was taking her A levels two weeks ago and she's still a schoolgirl.

    Even if you disagree with those comments, it's appalling that they made her sit around all day to put her match on last of all, playing as late as 9pm. Why? TV ratings. They wanted her on during the prime time evening slot. Who cared about her wellbeing and her state of mind? Who cared that she might be waiting all day sitting on a mountain of expectation and a massive degree of hype? All the newspapers yesterday had her on the front pages. She was extensively interviewed for the weekend papers. They even had one picture of England one one side, Emma on the other with an 'England Expects' banner. The poor girl was obviously overwhelmed.

    She should have been given an early afternoon low key spot, especially as the winner of that match had to play first thing today.

    She wasn't ready for this and it was atrociously badly handled.

    Like watching an episode of Black Mirror.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749

    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    On Rigby this article confirms her and Sky's pro zero covid anti HMG stance

    http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ministers-step-out-of-our-lives-but-the-big-unknown-is-whether-they-will-have-to-step-back-in-12349579
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,921
    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    I agree. The advertising campaign got it terribly wrong. It should have been an appeal to the heart. The cultural and romantic aspects of Europe were simply ignored and instead we were served an unintelligible diet of cost analyses. A game for any number of players played without rules.
    I don't see why that would have helped. Paris or Venice or Barcelona are just as nice whether we're in the EU or not. And there are plenty of places outside the EU (for my money Istanbul, Luzern, Rio) which are just as nice, but which we don't subsidise with billions a year.
    While I don’t think it would have made a difference to the ultimate result, it would have been a much more positive campaign from Remain.

    And a more positive campaign might (fat chance) have led to less acrimony in the aftermath.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593

    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    On Rigby this article confirms her and Sky's pro zero covid anti HMG stance

    http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ministers-step-out-of-our-lives-but-the-big-unknown-is-whether-they-will-have-to-step-back-in-12349579

    Or is it merely pointing out a few things that show the government is taking a big gamble?

    Saying things government loyalists do not want to hear is not the same as being anti-government.

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Australian Grand Prix cancelled.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Alex, mildly surprised given they put it back, but the Aussies do seem to be taking a very cautious approach.

    Mr. Observer, any decision has risk. When the vast majority of one vaccine and a great many people have two, and it's summer, there's lots of reasons to unlock now (fully, most things are already getting more or less back to normal).

    It has to happen sometime. It's possible to express the counterview entirely reasonably but there was no nuance whatsoever in Rigby's accusation masquerading as a question.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited July 2021
    Jolyon Maugham oooops. He does seem accident-prone.

    "High-profile legal campaigners dealt blow in latest challenge to government – after correctly serving right papers a day too late"
    https://twitter.com/lawsocgazette/status/1412004683367989249


    I think it is one particular claim, but I'll need a legal opinion as to the breadth of impact on the overall PPE stuff.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,921

    Pulpstar said:

    I notice another new goal posting shifting is to talk about percentage of UK population (not just adults) who have been vaccinated, thus making it sound much lower....and of course we can't open up until (insert high %) of the population have been vaccinated. Ashworth was doing it on Newsnight, saying only 50% have been vaccinated, totally irresponsible given such low % vaccinated, yadda yadda.

    It's not a reason to not open up, which should be about % of over 50 double varied but it might get some pushback on the MHRA/JCVI discrepancy if Labour start going after this line.
    Yes I've been noticing this discrepancy for a long time. WHO / Bloomberg / NYT / Our World in Data all use different measures, including the bizarre looking one of e.g '125 vaccines per 100 people' which just looks weird.

    % of population is in fact a better measure if we leave politics out of this. Why? Because like much, though not all, of the EU we should be vaccinating our children. It's madness not to.
    Disagree: doses per 100 population is by far the best measure.

    Otherwise you get confused by different dosing strategies.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749

    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    On Rigby this article confirms her and Sky's pro zero covid anti HMG stance

    http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ministers-step-out-of-our-lives-but-the-big-unknown-is-whether-they-will-have-to-step-back-in-12349579

    Or is it merely pointing out a few things that show the government is taking a big gamble?

    Saying things government loyalists do not want to hear is not the same as being anti-government.

    Her article relies on iSage zero covid anti HMG opinions and does not use any counter sources to provide any balance

    Mind you I took the advice of some on here and no longer have Sky streaming in our lounge preferring to have the BBC which to be fair is more balanced

    I only came across this article whilst browsing the news media this am
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2021
    Does Australia really have much of a clue what it’s doing?

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/year-12-students-at-st-joseph-s-college-given-pfizer-vaccination-20210706-p587bd.html

    One of the reasons for the speed/success of the U.K. rollout was its simplicity and (in general) “no exceptions” approach. Everyone simply knew the order that people were being vaccinated and this cut out pretty much all arguments from special interest groups and others, making it possible to just focus directly on the task at hand.

    Appreciate though that the obvious urgency made it much easier to do this and generate high compliance and little vaccine wasteage. I guess it’s much harder in a country where large numbers of people don’t feel that urgency and just want to wait and see.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Interesting how personalised on Johnson this is. Johnson's gamble etc etc.

    If this goes totally tits up in early September he's in a bit of trouble.

    I wasn’t that impressed by Ashcroft’s response

    “How many deaths are enough”

    This is a judgement call. But life is not without risk.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited July 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I notice another new goal posting shifting is to talk about percentage of UK population (not just adults) who have been vaccinated, thus making it sound much lower....and of course we can't open up until (insert high %) of the population have been vaccinated. Ashworth was doing it on Newsnight, saying only 50% have been vaccinated, totally irresponsible given such low % vaccinated, yadda yadda.

    It's not a reason to not open up, which should be about % of over 50 double varied but it might get some pushback on the MHRA/JCVI discrepancy if Labour start going after this line.
    Yes I've been noticing this discrepancy for a long time. WHO / Bloomberg / NYT / Our World in Data all use different measures, including the bizarre looking one of e.g '125 vaccines per 100 people' which just looks weird.

    % of population is in fact a better measure if we leave politics out of this. Why? Because like much, though not all, of the EU we should be vaccinating our children. It's madness not to.
    Disagree: doses per 100 population is by far the best measure.

    Otherwise you get confused by different dosing strategies.
    Totally disagree. No one except statisticians will ever get their heads around the weirdness of that measurement. I've been staring at it for over a year and I still can't. And more importantly it's a complete nonsense when you have some vaccines requiring one dose, others two and others which will require boosters. You can't argue with that.

    % of population vaccinated is just fine. Something most people can understand.
  • alex_ said:

    Australian Grand Prix cancelled.

    Australia is in a deep deep hole of its own making. If it wasn't so serious you could be forgiven for laughing.

    The idea that they could hermetically seal their borders was never going to hold. And now, because no one thought vaccination was therefore very important, they're coming a right cropper.

    Sorry New Zealand ... you're next.

    Only one way to go with this ... vaccinate and let it out.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I notice another new goal posting shifting is to talk about percentage of UK population (not just adults) who have been vaccinated, thus making it sound much lower....and of course we can't open up until (insert high %) of the population have been vaccinated. Ashworth was doing it on Newsnight, saying only 50% have been vaccinated, totally irresponsible given such low % vaccinated, yadda yadda.

    It's not a reason to not open up, which should be about % of over 50 double varied but it might get some pushback on the MHRA/JCVI discrepancy if Labour start going after this line.
    Yes I've been noticing this discrepancy for a long time. WHO / Bloomberg / NYT / Our World in Data all use different measures, including the bizarre looking one of e.g '125 vaccines per 100 people' which just looks weird.

    % of population is in fact a better measure if we leave politics out of this. Why? Because like much, though not all, of the EU we should be vaccinating our children. It's madness not to.
    Disagree: doses per 100 population is by far the best measure.

    Otherwise you get confused by different dosing strategies.
    Totally disagree. No one except statisticians will ever get their heads around the weirdness of that measurement. I've been staring at it for over a year and I still can't. And more importantly it's a complete nonsense when you have some vaccines requiring one dose, others two and others which will require boosters. You can't argue with that.

    % of population vaccinated is just fine. Something most people can understand.
    It depends on what you are trying to take out from the statistics.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    What was the old saying about posh families? They sent the idiots of the family into the Army or the Church. Nowadays, its the the Army or Journalism.

    I don't watch the press conferences anymore. I'm not sure what's worse? BoJo's never-ending sentences, or the inane questions from the journalists?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    It wasn’t so much “buying time” as making sure we had a statistically robust data set to confirm that the link between cases and hospitalisation had been severely degraded
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    And now for something completely different. Some may agree with this. Many may not. But here goes.

    I think the way Wimbledon handled Emma Raducanu is disgraceful. And I write this as someone who was there last week and who had the opportunity to buy a pair of tickets to watch her match yesterday (which I turned down).

    I've worked with children all my life and however mature many sixth form girls seem, they're really not at that age. She's 18. She is not a big tournament player. This is her first. She was not groomed for big time tennis. She was taking her A levels two weeks ago and she's still a schoolgirl.

    Even if you disagree with those comments, it's appalling that they made her sit around all day to put her match on last of all, playing as late as 9pm. Why? TV ratings. They wanted her on during the prime time evening slot. Who cared about her wellbeing and her state of mind? Who cared that she might be waiting all day sitting on a mountain of expectation and a massive degree of hype? All the newspapers yesterday had her on the front pages. She was extensively interviewed for the weekend papers. They even had one picture of England one one side, Emma on the other with an 'England Expects' banner. The poor girl was obviously overwhelmed.

    She should have been given an early afternoon low key spot, especially as the winner of that match had to play first thing today.

    She wasn't ready for this and it was atrociously badly handled.

    Like watching an episode of Black Mirror.

    I watched too, and it was obvious fairly early on that something was wrong.
    I don't think it's entirely fair, though to say that TV ratings were the object. AIUI the plan for the tournament meant that the winners of whatever numbers her & her opponents second round tie were would play third on Court 1. That was the plan, that was the structure and it had to be kept to.
    No-one in the tournament management could, or was prepared to, change it. They can cope with rain, but not something like this.

    And she was, until last night at least, living in the players hotel, without her mum or a close friend. Very tough.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Weird comment

    1,000 plus jobs and many more in the supply chain and in the green economy protected
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Weird comment

    1,000 plus jobs and many more in the supply chain and in the green economy protected
    At what cost to the taxpayer? It’s a perfectly straightforward comment.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Weird comment

    1,000 plus jobs and many more in the supply chain and in the green economy protected
    At what cost to the taxpayer? It’s a perfectly straightforward comment.
    No doubt in line with Nissan and many more green investments to come
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Stellantis is Dutch.

    British governments picking winners in the car industry always works out splendidly.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited July 2021

    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    On Rigby this article confirms her and Sky's pro zero covid anti HMG stance

    http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ministers-step-out-of-our-lives-but-the-big-unknown-is-whether-they-will-have-to-step-back-in-12349579

    Or is it merely pointing out a few things that show the government is taking a big gamble?

    Saying things government loyalists do not want to hear is not the same as being anti-government.

    I'm not pro Government but Sky News are a shitshow on the pandemic. They spew Breaking News every day from this or that doom-mongerer that they can drag out of a laboratory or a fourth-rate former polytechnic. They love to parade statistics without any context or comparison. It's knee-jerk rubbish.

    This article, which I've read, is entirely one-sided. Take this throwaway remark for instance:

    'Even if the virus is still going strong.'

    I expect Beth didn't even think twice before writing that. But we know that in fact the virus is not still going strong. For all the case rate increase (boosted by more testing) the link between cases and hospitalisations and deaths is not increasing. Most scientists accept that is because of vaccination and (alongside or because of it) immunity in the population.

    So, er, no the virus is not still going strong. In fact it is getting weaker. Its propensity to kill is vastly diminished, by a factor of around 100 from the second wave peak depending on how you measure it.

    Spew News.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Move over Hancock...

    The Armed Forces' 'mental health champion' is being investigated over claims of an affair with the wife of a junior soldier who approached him for help.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9758555/Armys-mental-health-tsar-faces-probe-claim-affair-wife-soldier-wanted-help.html

    Does the Mail know the difference between a Major and a RSM?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    alex_ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
    You want the exit wave in the UK when the sun is high in the sky producing vitamin D for everyone.
    If vitamin D really is a thing why aren’t we all being told about it, and to go and get pills if necessary? Can you overdose on it?

    Or maybe the Government is secretly buying up the entire U.K. supply to give out for free when they’ve got enough...
    Everyone in Scotland is already recommended to be on vit d supplements and oaps/clinically vulnerable have been offered them for free since covid hit. Don't know about the rest of the UK.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Weird comment

    1,000 plus jobs and many more in the supply chain and in the green economy protected
    At what cost to the taxpayer? It’s a perfectly straightforward comment.
    No doubt in line with Nissan and many more green investments to come
    I remember when Conservative governments used to measure and publish the costs of investing in car production. There was no magic money tree.

    Will Boris revive British Leyland and create an electric Austin Allegro next?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Weird comment

    1,000 plus jobs and many more in the supply chain and in the green economy protected
    At what cost to the taxpayer? It’s a perfectly straightforward comment.
    No doubt in line with Nissan and many more green investments to come
    I remember when Conservative governments used to measure and publish the costs of investing in car production. There was no magic money tree.

    Will Boris revive British Leyland and create an electric Austin Allegro next?
    Don't even think it. You'll give him ideas!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Weird comment

    1,000 plus jobs and many more in the supply chain and in the green economy protected
    At what cost to the taxpayer? It’s a perfectly straightforward comment.
    No doubt in line with Nissan and many more green investments to come
    I remember when Conservative governments used to measure and publish the costs of investing in car production. There was no magic money tree.

    Will Boris revive British Leyland and create an electric Austin Allegro next?
    These are not the days of the Allegro but an entirely new electric vehicle car industry that will require millions of investment
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Absolutely gutted to learn that Richard Donner has died.

    Aw, man. Richard Donner has gone. Thanks for everything, Dick. For the best Superman, for Riggs and Murtaugh, for cutting David Warner’s head off and showing it from 278 different angles, for directing some of my favourite movies, and for teaching me what ‘verisimilitude’ means.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1412136037154004998

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/jul/05/richard-donner-dead-91-director-superman-goonies

    He will forever be remembered for his kebabs
    And his party.

    (Americans will get the joke.)
    I had to chew on it a bit
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Weird comment

    1,000 plus jobs and many more in the supply chain and in the green economy protected
    At what cost to the taxpayer? It’s a perfectly straightforward comment.
    No doubt in line with Nissan and many more green investments to come
    I remember when Conservative governments used to measure and publish the costs of investing in car production. There was no magic money tree.

    Will Boris revive British Leyland and create an electric Austin Allegro next?
    These are not the days of the Allegro but an entirely new electric vehicle car industry that will require millions of investment
    Why keep it a secret? Does the word ‘green’ justify a blank cheque and a 1970s industrial policy? My hunch is that this has less to do with green and more to do with shoring us up post Brexit.

    Either way if the investment is so great publish the cost like previous governments.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Labour can f**k off
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    It's suggesting a different course of action, aka opposition. If you think that's vile, perhaps you'd be more comfortable in a one party state.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    IanB2 said:

    Labour can f**k off

    I thought it was Hancock who did that?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Weird comment

    1,000 plus jobs and many more in the supply chain and in the green economy protected
    At what cost to the taxpayer? It’s a perfectly straightforward comment.
    No doubt in line with Nissan and many more green investments to come
    I remember when Conservative governments used to measure and publish the costs of investing in car production. There was no magic money tree.

    Will Boris revive British Leyland and create an electric Austin Allegro next?
    Ironically, Mrs Thatcher had two magic money trees: privatisation proceeds and North Sea oil.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Weird comment

    1,000 plus jobs and many more in the supply chain and in the green economy protected
    At what cost to the taxpayer? It’s a perfectly straightforward comment.
    No doubt in line with Nissan and many more green investments to come
    I remember when Conservative governments used to measure and publish the costs of investing in car production. There was no magic money tree.

    Will Boris revive British Leyland and create an electric Austin Allegro next?
    Ironically, Mrs Thatcher had two magic money trees: privatisation proceeds and North Sea oil.
    Boris has hot air to power wind generation?
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited July 2021
    Old King Cole.

    I can assure you that Emma Raducanu's match was scheduled to be last on court 1 purely for the tv ratings. They do this with British players to catch the 6pm - 8pm (and now that they have the two roofs, later) slots. As you know, under local regs they can play under the lights until 11pm sharp.

    Many of the ladies singles were scheduled first on courts e.g. Elena Rybakina (21) was played at 11 am. Three other ladies matches went through first thing on Centre and No.1.

    The BBC's eyes lit up and they shunted all the BBC1 programmes off to BBC2 and brought Emma's match onto BBC1.

    It was a god-awful decision to schedule a young inexperienced girl like that.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Lab health shadow just dying on Radio 4 on flu and children
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    The aspect of the government’s approach I find troubling is the assertion that mask wearing is a matter of personal choice. Since we know the purpose of masks is mainly to protect other people, not the wearer, how does that work?
  • Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    And at variance with his own MP, Ben Bradshaw, who has been championing easing of restrictions for months.
This discussion has been closed.