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Some of the front pages following BoJo’s big COVID gamble – politicalbetting.com

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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,358

    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    On Rigby this article confirms her and Sky's pro zero covid anti HMG stance

    http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ministers-step-out-of-our-lives-but-the-big-unknown-is-whether-they-will-have-to-step-back-in-12349579

    Or is it merely pointing out a few things that show the government is taking a big gamble?

    Saying things government loyalists do not want to hear is not the same as being anti-government.

    SKY has loved 18 months of Covid, rehashing Government pressers and having a long list of gobby inumerates to easily fill their time. They seem to be concerned that the next 18 months might not be so easy...
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited July 2021
    I don’t find labour’s (Ashworth on r4) arguments particularly convincing.

    I think the tories are taking the country with them.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited July 2021

    And now for something completely different. Some may agree with this. Many may not. But here goes.

    I think the way Wimbledon handled Emma Raducanu is disgraceful. And I write this as someone who was there last week and who had the opportunity to buy a pair of tickets to watch her match yesterday (which I turned down).

    I've worked with children all my life and however mature many sixth form girls seem, they're really not at that age. She's 18. She is not a big tournament player. This is her first. She was not groomed for big time tennis. She was taking her A levels two weeks ago and she's still a schoolgirl.

    Even if you disagree with those comments, it's appalling that they made her sit around all day to put her match on last of all, playing as late as 9pm. Why? TV ratings. They wanted her on during the prime time evening slot. Who cared about her wellbeing and her state of mind? Who cared that she might be waiting all day sitting on a mountain of expectation and a massive degree of hype? All the newspapers yesterday had her on the front pages. She was extensively interviewed for the weekend papers. They even had one picture of England one one side, Emma on the other with an 'England Expects' banner. The poor girl was obviously overwhelmed.

    She should have been given an early afternoon low key spot, especially as the winner of that match had to play first thing today.

    She wasn't ready for this and it was atrociously badly handled.

    Like watching an episode of Black Mirror.

    Very good point the nerves would have been unbelievable.

    Not sure about Black Mirror. In a Black Mirror episode she would have had to play because she was trapped in a snow globe sitting on the desk of her prosecuting judge which had just been shaken and hence the breathing problems.
  • TOPPING said:

    Once more people are missing the

    And now for something completely different. Some may agree with this. Many may not. But here goes.

    I think the way Wimbledon handled Emma Raducanu is disgraceful. And I write this as someone who was there last week and who had the opportunity to buy a pair of tickets to watch her match yesterday (which I turned down).

    I've worked with children all my life and however mature many sixth form girls seem, they're really not at that age. She's 18. She is not a big tournament player. This is her first. She was not groomed for big time tennis. She was taking her A levels two weeks ago and she's still a schoolgirl.

    Even if you disagree with those comments, it's appalling that they made her sit around all day to put her match on last of all, playing as late as 9pm. Why? TV ratings. They wanted her on during the prime time evening slot. Who cared about her wellbeing and her state of mind? Who cared that she might be waiting all day sitting on a mountain of expectation and a massive degree of hype? All the newspapers yesterday had her on the front pages. She was extensively interviewed for the weekend papers. They even had one picture of England one one side, Emma on the other with an 'England Expects' banner. The poor girl was obviously overwhelmed.

    She should have been given an early afternoon low key spot, especially as the winner of that match had to play first thing today.

    She wasn't ready for this and it was atrociously badly handled.

    Like watching an episode of Black Mirror.

    Very good point the nerves would have been unbelievable.

    Not sure about Black Mirror. In a Black Mirror episode she would have had to play because she was trapped in a snow globe sitting on the desk of her prosecuting judge which had just been shaken and hence the breathing problems.
    :smiley:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    "it was hard to help wondering whether we were merely being given the summer off: a few months’ break, and then back to the rule of six by Hallowe’en."

    Deacon in Telegraph on Johnson's presser
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795

    I think the biggest danger for Boris / government is if they end up re-implementing restrictions in the autumn / winter.

    I think there's a fat chance of that.

    The vaccinations are pretty much done and now for those who haven't had it (hello contrarian) the virus is going to burn out over summer. Which is precisely when it should.

    What's going to be left by the autumn? Virtually everyone will have had the virus or the vaccine so how would a new surge happen again to overwhelm the NHS?
    The concept is fairly simple even for you. Pox keeps mutating, so it mutates into a version that laughs at our vaccine. We already have double-jabbed people getting Delta, albeit only in an ill for a week form. If the next mutation, or the one after that cuts through the vaccine like it isn't their and proves effective again, that's how we end up reimposing restrictions.

    Yes, this is hypothetical and none of us want it. But it is based on both facts and the science. Saying "never again" is buffoonish even for the clown. The media have rightly personalised this as Bozzas big gamble - it'll all be on him if there isthe slightest retrenchment.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Charles said:

    Move over Hancock...

    The Armed Forces' 'mental health champion' is being investigated over claims of an affair with the wife of a junior soldier who approached him for help.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9758555/Armys-mental-health-tsar-faces-probe-claim-affair-wife-soldier-wanted-help.html

    Does the Mail know the difference between a Major and a RSM?
    He's neither, he's a WO1 but was commissioned as OF-2 (Captain) when was ASM.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited July 2021
    The maternity story is worrying. Hunt talking sense.

    He’s way better than either Hancock or Javid. Silly Boris with his silly vendettas.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,793

    Old King Cole.

    I can assure you that Emma Raducanu's match was scheduled to be last on court 1 purely for the tv ratings. They do this with British players to catch the 6pm - 8pm (and now that they have the two roofs, later) slots. As you know, under local regs they can play under the lights until 11pm sharp.

    Many of the ladies singles were scheduled first on courts e.g. Elena Rybakina (21) was played at 11 am. Three other ladies matches went through first thing on Centre and No.1.

    The BBC's eyes lit up and they shunted all the BBC1 programmes off to BBC2 and brought Emma's match onto BBC1.

    It was a god-awful decision to schedule a young inexperienced girl like that.

    She is a competitor in a professional tennis major . Allowances for being young and inexperienced are not given. You sink or swim its sport ,its well paid, its hard. she will learn
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    On Rigby this article confirms her and Sky's pro zero covid anti HMG stance

    http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ministers-step-out-of-our-lives-but-the-big-unknown-is-whether-they-will-have-to-step-back-in-12349579

    Or is it merely pointing out a few things that show the government is taking a big gamble?

    Saying things government loyalists do not want to hear is not the same as being anti-government.

    SKY has loved 18 months of Covid, rehashing Government pressers and having a long list of gobby inumerates to easily fill their time. They seem to be concerned that the next 18 months might not be so easy...
    Ed Conway's analyses seem ok to me.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575

    And now for something completely different. Some may agree with this. Many may not. But here goes.

    I think the way Wimbledon handled Emma Raducanu is disgraceful. And I write this as someone who was there last week and who had the opportunity to buy a pair of tickets to watch her match yesterday (which I turned down).

    I've worked with children all my life and however mature many sixth form girls seem, they're really not at that age. She's 18. She is not a big tournament player. This is her first. She was not groomed for big time tennis. She was taking her A levels two weeks ago and she's still a schoolgirl.

    Even if you disagree with those comments, it's appalling that they made her sit around all day to put her match on last of all, playing as late as 9pm. Why? TV ratings. They wanted her on during the prime time evening slot. Who cared about her wellbeing and her state of mind? Who cared that she might be waiting all day sitting on a mountain of expectation and a massive degree of hype? All the newspapers yesterday had her on the front pages. She was extensively interviewed for the weekend papers. They even had one picture of England one one side, Emma on the other with an 'England Expects' banner. The poor girl was obviously overwhelmed.

    She should have been given an early afternoon low key spot, especially as the winner of that match had to play first thing today.

    She wasn't ready for this and it was atrociously badly handled.

    Like watching an episode of Black Mirror.

    I watched too, and it was obvious fairly early on that something was wrong.
    I don't think it's entirely fair, though to say that TV ratings were the object. AIUI the plan for the tournament meant that the winners of whatever numbers her & her opponents second round tie were would play third on Court 1. That was the plan, that was the structure and it had to be kept to.
    No-one in the tournament management could, or was prepared to, change it. They can cope with rain, but not something like this.

    And she was, until last night at least, living in the players hotel, without her mum or a close friend. Very tough.
    I'd be inclined to withhold judgment until we know what is wrong. There may well have been a physical component, rather than the stress of playing before a large crowd for only the second time. It may also be that Wimbledon should enhance its medical services, and its care for young players (Alcaraz is also 18 and there might be others).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Charles said:

    Move over Hancock...

    The Armed Forces' 'mental health champion' is being investigated over claims of an affair with the wife of a junior soldier who approached him for help.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9758555/Armys-mental-health-tsar-faces-probe-claim-affair-wife-soldier-wanted-help.html

    Does the Mail know the difference between a Major and a RSM?
    "RSM"??

    None of those in the Household Division Charles.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Potential French presidential candidate says that Northern Italy should have been French and there’s no difference between Nice and Milan.

    https://twitter.com/cnews/status/1412097738699857920

    That’s because Nice has only been French for 170 years.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,358
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Thankfully, it won't play well.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    edited July 2021
    Previous governments and governments around the world must be kicking themselves today. How foolish they have been. Government is so much more easier and you are so much popular when you spend without counting or publishing the cost. Make that someone else’s problem. Boris is a genius.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    It's politics - and the thing a lot of people here have been asking SKS to do for months.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    The aspect of the government’s approach I find troubling is the assertion that mask wearing is a matter of personal choice. Since we know the purpose of masks is mainly to protect other people, not the wearer, how does that work?

    It means that fully vaxxed people, perhaps those who have recently taken tests will have to endure opprobrium if they judge themselves to be a very low risk to others.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Old King Cole.

    I can assure you that Emma Raducanu's match was scheduled to be last on court 1 purely for the tv ratings. They do this with British players to catch the 6pm - 8pm (and now that they have the two roofs, later) slots. As you know, under local regs they can play under the lights until 11pm sharp.

    Many of the ladies singles were scheduled first on courts e.g. Elena Rybakina (21) was played at 11 am. Three other ladies matches went through first thing on Centre and No.1.

    The BBC's eyes lit up and they shunted all the BBC1 programmes off to BBC2 and brought Emma's match onto BBC1.

    It was a god-awful decision to schedule a young inexperienced girl like that.

    If you are right, and I must admit I thought the schedules were planned a long while ago, then I agree. It was putting a dreadful load on her.

    And the crowd's support was probably a mixed blessing too!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Dura_Ace said:

    Charles said:

    Move over Hancock...

    The Armed Forces' 'mental health champion' is being investigated over claims of an affair with the wife of a junior soldier who approached him for help.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9758555/Armys-mental-health-tsar-faces-probe-claim-affair-wife-soldier-wanted-help.html

    Does the Mail know the difference between a Major and a RSM?
    He's neither, he's a WO1 but was commissioned as OF-2 (Captain) when was ASM.
    "ASM" Dear fucking god.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Stellantis is Dutch.

    British governments picking winners in the car industry always works out splendidly.
    They are only Dutch because all other plausible options opened up the charge of favourtism.

    Italy - Fiat / Alfa Romeo
    Germany - Opel
    France - Peugeot
    UK - Brexit and Vauxhall..

    So Stellantis picked a neutral country that management could cope with living in
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Old King Cole.

    I can assure you that Emma Raducanu's match was scheduled to be last on court 1 purely for the tv ratings. They do this with British players to catch the 6pm - 8pm (and now that they have the two roofs, later) slots. As you know, under local regs they can play under the lights until 11pm sharp.

    Many of the ladies singles were scheduled first on courts e.g. Elena Rybakina (21) was played at 11 am. Three other ladies matches went through first thing on Centre and No.1.

    The BBC's eyes lit up and they shunted all the BBC1 programmes off to BBC2 and brought Emma's match onto BBC1.

    It was a god-awful decision to schedule a young inexperienced girl like that.

    If you are right, and I must admit I thought the schedules were planned a long while ago, then I agree. It was putting a dreadful load on her.

    And the crowd's support was probably a mixed blessing too!
    She was playing in the second week of Wimbledon, attention was unavoidable. Would they have played the semi or the final on court 12 at 11am?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    Labour support restrictions to freedom of association.
    Labour support restrictions to freedom of movement.
    Labour support restrictions to children's education.
    Labour support hobbling of the economy.
    Labour support the surveillance state.

    If we were in the situation now back in March 2020, there is no way we'd be proposing any of these measures.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    ...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    ping said:

    I don’t find labour’s (Ashworth on r4) arguments particularly convincing.

    I think the tories are taking the country with them.

    He was all over the place.

    "How many deaths are acceptable to you then?"

    "I don't want any deaths"

    "So you are zero covid then?"

    "No, not all. But we should avoid all avoidable deaths by for example vaccination, like we do for flu, we vaccinate all the children"

    "No we don't"

    and so on...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Dura_Ace said:

    Charles said:

    Move over Hancock...

    The Armed Forces' 'mental health champion' is being investigated over claims of an affair with the wife of a junior soldier who approached him for help.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9758555/Armys-mental-health-tsar-faces-probe-claim-affair-wife-soldier-wanted-help.html

    Does the Mail know the difference between a Major and a RSM?
    He's neither, he's a WO1 but was commissioned as OF-2 (Captain) when was ASM.
    Have you seen (or edited) his Wikipedia page?

    Warrant Officer Class One Glenn John Haughton, OBE (born May 1972) is a senior British Army soldier. Since November 2018, he has served as the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Chiefs of Staff Committee. From March 2015 to 2018, he was the Army Sergeant Major, the most senior warrant officer and member of the other ranks in the British Army. He is a filthy, backstabbing rat and not to be trusted. He was previously Regimental Sergeant Major of the 1st Battalion, Grenadier Guards and Academy Sergeant Major at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Haughton
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MattW said:

    Jolyon Maugham oooops. He does seem accident-prone.

    "High-profile legal campaigners dealt blow in latest challenge to government – after correctly serving right papers a day too late"
    https://twitter.com/lawsocgazette/status/1412004683367989249


    I think it is one particular claim, but I'll need a legal opinion as to the breadth of impact on the overall PPE stuff.

    How can you “correctly serve” something a day late. If it’s late you’re not correct
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile

    God forbid a politician thinking politically. Boris Johnson would never, ever do that.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Jonathan said:

    Old King Cole.

    I can assure you that Emma Raducanu's match was scheduled to be last on court 1 purely for the tv ratings. They do this with British players to catch the 6pm - 8pm (and now that they have the two roofs, later) slots. As you know, under local regs they can play under the lights until 11pm sharp.

    Many of the ladies singles were scheduled first on courts e.g. Elena Rybakina (21) was played at 11 am. Three other ladies matches went through first thing on Centre and No.1.

    The BBC's eyes lit up and they shunted all the BBC1 programmes off to BBC2 and brought Emma's match onto BBC1.

    It was a god-awful decision to schedule a young inexperienced girl like that.

    If you are right, and I must admit I thought the schedules were planned a long while ago, then I agree. It was putting a dreadful load on her.

    And the crowd's support was probably a mixed blessing too!
    She was playing in the second week of Wimbledon, attention was unavoidable. Would they have played the semi or the final on court 12 at 11am?
    I posted earlier that ' I thought the schedules were planned a long while ago'. And of course she'd have got the crowd's support, whatever time she'd played.
    If anyone actually knows about whether the schedules are shifted for tv purposes, I'd be interested.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    For the "AZ is rubbish" crowd:

    So this Canadian study indicates AZ does v well v Delta after just one dose, better than Pfizer one dose.

    V pleasing for me, an AZ oncer til 2d shot late August.

    I think there’s growing evidence that AZ efficacy builds & builds, a slow burner as @sailorrooscout has explained.


    https://twitter.com/profsarahj/status/1412151638530281481?s=20
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    CD13 said:

    What was the old saying about posh families? They sent the idiots of the family into the Army or the Church. Nowadays, its the the Army or Journalism.

    I don't watch the press conferences anymore. I'm not sure what's worse? BoJo's never-ending sentences, or the inane questions from the journalists?

    Oi! It’s not the idiots it’s the second and third sons…

    Eldest - managing the estate
    Second - army
    Third - church
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile

    God forbid a politician thinking politically. Boris Johnson would never, ever do that.

    Retaining masks on the tube and public transport might have been a good idea if the goal was getting things moving, but after Hancock and two by election loses Boris wanted a headline.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593

    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    On Rigby this article confirms her and Sky's pro zero covid anti HMG stance

    http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ministers-step-out-of-our-lives-but-the-big-unknown-is-whether-they-will-have-to-step-back-in-12349579

    Or is it merely pointing out a few things that show the government is taking a big gamble?

    Saying things government loyalists do not want to hear is not the same as being anti-government.

    I'm not pro Government but Sky News are a shitshow on the pandemic. They spew Breaking News every day from this or that doom-mongerer that they can drag out of a laboratory or a fourth-rate former polytechnic. They love to parade statistics without any context or comparison. It's knee-jerk rubbish.

    This article, which I've read, is entirely one-sided. Take this throwaway remark for instance:

    'Even if the virus is still going strong.'

    I expect Beth didn't even think twice before writing that. But we know that in fact the virus is not still going strong. For all the case rate increase (boosted by more testing) the link between cases and hospitalisations and deaths is not increasing. Most scientists accept that is because of vaccination and (alongside or because of it) immunity in the population.

    So, er, no the virus is not still going strong. In fact it is getting weaker. Its propensity to kill is vastly diminished, by a factor of around 100 from the second wave peak depending on how you measure it.

    Spew News.

    Cases are increasing, not diminishing. Ergo, the virus is still going strong. That is not the same as saying the virus's effects are as strong as they were. You are applying your own biases to a perfectly reasonable statement.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Dura_Ace said:

    Charles said:

    Move over Hancock...

    The Armed Forces' 'mental health champion' is being investigated over claims of an affair with the wife of a junior soldier who approached him for help.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9758555/Armys-mental-health-tsar-faces-probe-claim-affair-wife-soldier-wanted-help.html

    Does the Mail know the difference between a Major and a RSM?
    He's neither, he's a WO1 but was commissioned as OF-2 (Captain) when was ASM.
    Have you seen (or edited) his Wikipedia page?

    Warrant Officer Class One Glenn John Haughton, OBE (born May 1972) is a senior British Army soldier. Since November 2018, he has served as the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Chiefs of Staff Committee. From March 2015 to 2018, he was the Army Sergeant Major, the most senior warrant officer and member of the other ranks in the British Army. He is a filthy, backstabbing rat and not to be trusted. He was previously Regimental Sergeant Major of the 1st Battalion, Grenadier Guards and Academy Sergeant Major at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Haughton
    Wonder how long that'll be included.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    Very good news - especially when you consider where the major export market will be and the consequences of that.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Stellantis is Dutch.

    British governments picking winners in the car industry always works out splendidly.
    They’re only Dutch for tax reasons. They are really Fiat with a bit (not much) of Chysler bolted to Peugeot.

    The government is backing all the big players they can not trying to pick winners
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    Fantastic story in the Daily Diana Maddie Express. "Take that EU! British haulier to exploit Brexit loophole after EU rejects UK demands"

    Yep, a plucky Brit has foiled the evil EU plans. He has spent £3.5m on a new EU depot, and now he's found a "loophole" where he trains his drivers in the EU for a further £130k to keep their EU registration. Best part of 4 mil spent in the EU instead of the UK to stand still, a whole depot of drivers now EU based paying taxes in the EU instead of in the UK and thats us beating the EU?

    Even the comments section skewer the headline and the spin

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1458566/brexit-news-european-union-demands-britain-hauliers-exports-latest-vn
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593

    Good morning, everyone.

    Unusually, I actually watched some news yesterday. Even more oddly, it was of the press conference the PM held. Didn't watch much but the questions from Vicki Young (BBC, why not wait until the whole adult population is vaccinated before opening) and Beth Rigby (Sky, I forget the wording precisely but it left me quite angry and surprised she was being so accusatory and doom-mongering) were a helpful reminder that I'm missing almost nothing by not watching the news regularly any more.

    On Rigby this article confirms her and Sky's pro zero covid anti HMG stance

    http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ministers-step-out-of-our-lives-but-the-big-unknown-is-whether-they-will-have-to-step-back-in-12349579

    Or is it merely pointing out a few things that show the government is taking a big gamble?

    Saying things government loyalists do not want to hear is not the same as being anti-government.

    Her article relies on iSage zero covid anti HMG opinions and does not use any counter sources to provide any balance

    Mind you I took the advice of some on here and no longer have Sky streaming in our lounge preferring to have the BBC which to be fair is more balanced

    I only came across this article whilst browsing the news media this am

    The balance is what the PM said and the piece is written in reference to that. As I say, it is not anti-government to write things that a government loyalist would prefer not to read.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    It's suggesting a different course of action, aka opposition. If you think that's vile, perhaps you'd be more comfortable in a one party state.
    I replied to @ Jonathan who made a similar point
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    ping said:

    I don’t find labour’s (Ashworth on r4) arguments particularly convincing.

    I think the tories are taking the country with them.

    He was all over the shop - which is unusual for a polished performer.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths

    Johnson takes the credit where it is due on the vaccine, he also gets the blame when things go wrong. Welcome to politics, leadership and responsibility, Charles.

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2021
    Charles said:

    CD13 said:

    What was the old saying about posh families? They sent the idiots of the family into the Army or the Church. Nowadays, its the the Army or Journalism.

    I don't watch the press conferences anymore. I'm not sure what's worse? BoJo's never-ending sentences, or the inane questions from the journalists?

    Oi! It’s not the idiots it’s the second and third sons…

    Eldest - managing the estate
    Second - army
    Third - church
    The fourth if the other 3 three survive early childbirth - sink or swim in the Navy
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    For the "AZ is rubbish" crowd:

    So this Canadian study indicates AZ does v well v Delta after just one dose, better than Pfizer one dose.

    V pleasing for me, an AZ oncer til 2d shot late August.

    I think there’s growing evidence that AZ efficacy builds & builds, a slow burner as @sailorrooscout has explained.


    https://twitter.com/profsarahj/status/1412151638530281481?s=20

    Sure, but is it worth the 200% chance of developing a fatal blood clot?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    Fantastic story in the Daily Diana Maddie Express. "Take that EU! British haulier to exploit Brexit loophole after EU rejects UK demands"

    Yep, a plucky Brit has foiled the evil EU plans. He has spent £3.5m on a new EU depot, and now he's found a "loophole" where he trains his drivers in the EU for a further £130k to keep their EU registration. Best part of 4 mil spent in the EU instead of the UK to stand still, a whole depot of drivers now EU based paying taxes in the EU instead of in the UK and thats us beating the EU?

    Even the comments section skewer the headline and the spin

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1458566/brexit-news-european-union-demands-britain-hauliers-exports-latest-vn

    Does sound a bit try hardy.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    British Taxpayers support French company? How much?
    Stellantis is Dutch.

    British governments picking winners in the car industry always works out splendidly.
    They are only Dutch because all other plausible options opened up the charge of favourtism.

    Italy - Fiat / Alfa Romeo
    Germany - Opel
    France - Peugeot
    UK - Brexit and Vauxhall..

    So Stellantis picked a neutral country that management could cope with living in
    And, purely coincidentally, minimised their taxes?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile

    God forbid a politician thinking politically. Boris Johnson would never, ever do that.

    Retaining masks on the tube and public transport might have been a good idea if the goal was getting things moving, but after Hancock and two by election loses Boris wanted a headline.

    I think it's more a case of appeasing his backbenches.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    kle4 said:

    For the "AZ is rubbish" crowd:

    So this Canadian study indicates AZ does v well v Delta after just one dose, better than Pfizer one dose.

    V pleasing for me, an AZ oncer til 2d shot late August.

    I think there’s growing evidence that AZ efficacy builds & builds, a slow burner as @sailorrooscout has explained.


    https://twitter.com/profsarahj/status/1412151638530281481?s=20

    Sure, but is it worth the 200% chance of developing a fatal blood clot?
    Had second AZ dose yesterday, hopefully worth the roll of the dice.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    Jolyon Maugham oooops. He does seem accident-prone.

    "High-profile legal campaigners dealt blow in latest challenge to government – after correctly serving right papers a day too late"
    https://twitter.com/lawsocgazette/status/1412004683367989249


    I think it is one particular claim, but I'll need a legal opinion as to the breadth of impact on the overall PPE stuff.

    How can you “correctly serve” something a day late. If it’s late you’re not correct
    Oh it happens all the time - someone pointed me at a case last year where it went very high up to determine whether the paper work had been done on time or not due to delays due to a weekend and a bank holiday.

    I remember it because the first thing I went backed and asked was why had they left it to the last second to issue the court case when they had had 6 years to do so...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    Dura_Ace said:

    Charles said:

    Move over Hancock...

    The Armed Forces' 'mental health champion' is being investigated over claims of an affair with the wife of a junior soldier who approached him for help.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9758555/Armys-mental-health-tsar-faces-probe-claim-affair-wife-soldier-wanted-help.html

    Does the Mail know the difference between a Major and a RSM?
    He's neither, he's a WO1 but was commissioned as OF-2 (Captain) when was ASM.
    Have you seen (or edited) his Wikipedia page?

    Warrant Officer Class One Glenn John Haughton, OBE (born May 1972) is a senior British Army soldier. Since November 2018, he has served as the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Chiefs of Staff Committee. From March 2015 to 2018, he was the Army Sergeant Major, the most senior warrant officer and member of the other ranks in the British Army. He is a filthy, backstabbing rat and not to be trusted. He was previously Regimental Sergeant Major of the 1st Battalion, Grenadier Guards and Academy Sergeant Major at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Haughton
    I am exceedingly liberal about people’s private lives but in this particular context, Warrant Office Haughton should be expelled from the Army.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    ping said:

    The maternity story is worrying. Hunt talking sense.

    He’s way better than either Hancock or Javid. Silly Boris with his silly vendettas.

    He may be more effective holding them to account on the Select Committee - someone has to....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile

    God forbid a politician thinking politically. Boris Johnson would never, ever do that.

    Retaining masks on the tube and public transport might have been a good idea if the goal was getting things moving, but after Hancock and two by election loses Boris wanted a headline.

    I think it's more a case of appeasing his backbenches.
    Not mutually exclusive. Remember Boris governs through headlines.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile

    God forbid a politician thinking politically. Boris Johnson would never, ever do that.

    Retaining masks on the tube and public transport might have been a good idea if the goal was getting things moving, but after Hancock and two by election loses Boris wanted a headline.

    I think it's more a case of appeasing his backbenches.
    In other words, people who would never take a bus, let alone drive one.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    The polling will be interesting. For months we have heard how the public are “pro-lockdown” and the Govt have been taking comfort and reassurance from this.

    But it maybe much more simple than this. At times of national crisis a significant proportion of the population simply follow and trust (and to some extent anticipate) the Govt. And once the Govt makes a decision, even one where it seems the public is, at best, evenly divided, this part of the population will be quite happy being led in opposition to their previously held opinions.

    There will obviously be continued nervousness about rising case numbers (and I suspect some of Johnson’s estimates of eg. 50k by July 15th were probably on the low side. So the government really needs to get the issue of relatively low hospitalisations into mainstream discourse.

    But I wouldn’t be totally surprised to see a big shift in favour of full opening up as planned.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
    Charles prefers it when the rich man is left to his castle and the poor man remains at the gate.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Not quite - the Government is subsidising car manufacturers at a time of total structural change in that industry.

    When everything is up in the air you need to offer subsidies to keep both the existing companies and encourage new ones.

    I suspect Tesla is regretting building their factory in Germany.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    Jolyon Maugham oooops. He does seem accident-prone.

    "High-profile legal campaigners dealt blow in latest challenge to government – after correctly serving right papers a day too late"
    https://twitter.com/lawsocgazette/status/1412004683367989249


    I think it is one particular claim, but I'll need a legal opinion as to the breadth of impact on the overall PPE stuff.

    How can you “correctly serve” something a day late. If it’s late you’re not correct
    Quite. Sucks for them, email mess up it seems, but if you are demanding legal redress it's on you to get things like that right.

    No matter how clear, simple or justified a deadline might be people can get astonishingly angry if they miss it though.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
    The grim reaper?

    The human condition?

    Elton John (Circle of life)?

    People die. That's not any politicians fault.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Let's save £350m a week and spend it on a bung to the people who made this bus!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
    The grim reaper?

    The human condition?

    Elton John (Circle of life)?

    People die. That's not any politicians fault.
    Elton John didn't write the words.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210
    kle4 said:

    Fantastic story in the Daily Diana Maddie Express. "Take that EU! British haulier to exploit Brexit loophole after EU rejects UK demands"

    Yep, a plucky Brit has foiled the evil EU plans. He has spent £3.5m on a new EU depot, and now he's found a "loophole" where he trains his drivers in the EU for a further £130k to keep their EU registration. Best part of 4 mil spent in the EU instead of the UK to stand still, a whole depot of drivers now EU based paying taxes in the EU instead of in the UK and thats us beating the EU?

    Even the comments section skewer the headline and the spin

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1458566/brexit-news-european-union-demands-britain-hauliers-exports-latest-vn

    Does sound a bit try hardy.
    Presumably the EU will start to find more and more businesses are British-owned... that will amuse them
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
    The grim reaper?

    The human condition?

    Elton John (Circle of life)?

    People die. That's not any politicians fault.
    Apart from the extra deaths enabled by delayed lockdowns three times through 2020, and a failure to close the border to India for “reasons”.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Let's save £350m a week and spend it on a bung to the people who made this bus!
    Still a better love story than Twilight more productive than sending it to Brussels.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    eek said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    Jolyon Maugham oooops. He does seem accident-prone.

    "High-profile legal campaigners dealt blow in latest challenge to government – after correctly serving right papers a day too late"
    https://twitter.com/lawsocgazette/status/1412004683367989249


    I think it is one particular claim, but I'll need a legal opinion as to the breadth of impact on the overall PPE stuff.

    How can you “correctly serve” something a day late. If it’s late you’re not correct
    Oh it happens all the time - someone pointed me at a case last year where it went very high up to determine whether the paper work had been done on time or not due to delays due to a weekend and a bank holiday.

    I remember it because the first thing I went backed and asked was why had they left it to the last second to issue the court case when they had had 6 years to do so...
    Sometimes last minute is unavoidable of course, especially if timelines are tight, but it's very obvious when people do it as a tactic, especially on petty matters. Half the time it just delays matters for them.

    I seem to recall a candidate in one of the many UKIP leader contests missing out by sending in their application a few minutes late, which is harsh but funny.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    Charles said:

    Interesting how personalised on Johnson this is. Johnson's gamble etc etc.

    If this goes totally tits up in early September he's in a bit of trouble.

    I wasn’t that impressed by Ashcroft’s response

    “How many deaths are enough”

    This is a judgement call. But life is not without risk.
    Johnson, like Putin, "has a reduced sense of danger". His utter recklessness on multiple fronts, not just Brexit and Covid, is going to crash the economy. As the right wing used to say "Sooner or later governments run out of other people´s money".

    He may well be out of ofice by the time the crash comes, but we are looking at many lost years ahead and quite possibly the distruction of the entire state. His ignorance as to the economic risks he is taking is staggering. I predict he will be regarded, like Trump, as a bad man and a lousy leader.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    eek said:

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Not quite - the Government is subsidising car manufacturers at a time of total structural change in that industry.

    When everything is up in the air you need to offer subsidies to keep both the existing companies and encourage new ones.

    I suspect Tesla is regretting building their factory in Germany.
    Funny how there’s always non-Brexit reasons.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Let's save £350m a week and spend it on a bung to the people who made this bus!
    Still a better love story than Twilight more productive than sending it to Brussels.
    Evidence?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
    Charles prefers it when the rich man is left to his castle and the poor man remains at the gate.
    Ridiculous - how is the poor man supposed to attend upon the rich man to serve if left at the gate?

    He was supposed to use the servant's entrance.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Christopher Snowdon
    @cjsnowdon
    ·
    10h
    Find me anyone - scientist, politician, pundit, anyone - who said in January that we should still have restrictions in August even if two-thirds of adults were double jabbed and 86% had had one jab.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Senior Tory MP: 'They are going for herd immunity via vaccination and infection ... everyone will either have had two jabs or have caught the Delta variant'

    'The Great British Summer is going to mean getting pinged, failing a test and having to isolate'


    https://politi.co/3svJcDk https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1412305313856954370/photo/1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
    The grim reaper?

    The human condition?

    Elton John (Circle of life)?

    People die. That's not any politicians fault.
    Decisions politicians make in these circumstances can affect the chances of it though. I support the latest moves but many decisions have affected how many might die.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    edited July 2021
    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Interesting how personalised on Johnson this is. Johnson's gamble etc etc.

    If this goes totally tits up in early September he's in a bit of trouble.

    I wasn’t that impressed by Ashcroft’s response

    “How many deaths are enough”

    This is a judgement call. But life is not without risk.
    Johnson, like Putin, "has a reduced sense of danger". His utter recklessness on multiple fronts, not just Brexit and Covid, is going to crash the economy. As the right wing used to say "Sooner or later governments run out of other people´s money".

    He may well be out of ofice by the time the crash comes, but we are looking at many lost years ahead and quite possibly the distruction of the entire state. His ignorance as to the economic risks he is taking is staggering. I predict he will be regarded, like Trump, as a bad man and a lousy leader.
    Disagree with this.

    Johnson doesn’t actually “care” enough to crash the economy. As in, not interested in the detail.

    In the end he will largely follow Treasury guidance and try to hide austerity behind boondoggles like the trade ship and a Ireland to Scotland bridge.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    eek said:

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Not quite - the Government is subsidising car manufacturers at a time of total structural change in that industry.

    When everything is up in the air you need to offer subsidies to keep both the existing companies and encourage new ones.

    I suspect Tesla is regretting building their factory in Germany.
    Funny how there’s always non-Brexit reasons.
    This is an industry where subsidies have always exists - no-one has built or modernised a car factory in decades without incentives to do so.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    edited July 2021
    F1: odd. I'd thought the UK was next, checked and seemed to see it was Hungary, but upon checking again it's the UK.

    Hmm. Mildly disconcerting.

    Edited extra bit: last year two events were held at Silverstone, one win each for Verstappen and Hamilton. On recent form, that's looking to be two for Red Bull, one suspects.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths

    Johnson takes the credit where it is due on the vaccine, he also gets the blame when things go wrong. Welcome to politics, leadership and responsibility, Charles.

    Yes and no.

    The vaccine program was fully within the government's command. It set up the relevant groups, chose a portfolio of vaccines, procured them, and greased the wheels of industry. There have been issues, but on the whole they've done a very good job. The vaccine messaging has also been generally good, with a few small wobbles IMO.

    Similarly (and this gets much less coverage), the excellent genomics work at COG-UK. Literally a world-beater.

    The spread of the virus is much less under the government's control: the virus does what it 'wants'. The government can tell the public what to do, but absent a police state, it depends on the public's behaviour in following those rules. They are not helpless against the virus, but they have to be reactive - whereas the vaccine rollout has been much more under their control.

    Too many people also ignore the negatives of lockdown: not just fiscally, but also mentally and physically to the population.

    Of course, all this is right. But the government has made a decision to end all legal restrictions at a time when the virus is spreading at a rapid rate. All or nothing were not the only two options. The PM, though, has decided that they were. He must take responsibility for that. There is no-one else to blame.

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210
    Scott_xP said:

    Senior Tory MP: 'They are going for herd immunity via vaccination and infection ... everyone will either have had two jabs or have caught the Delta variant'

    'The Great British Summer is going to mean getting pinged, failing a test and having to isolate'


    https://politi.co/3svJcDk https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1412305313856954370/photo/1

    Except we are no longer going to have to scan in in pubs etc.

    Although if we are to reach herd immunity the best thing to do would be to contact people who test positive and give them a voucher to send at the pub, which they have to collect by travelling on peak time public transport.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
    The grim reaper?

    The human condition?

    Elton John (Circle of life)?

    People die. That's not any politicians fault.

    It is when it is down to decisions they have taken.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    ping said:

    The maternity story is worrying. Hunt talking sense.

    He’s way better than either Hancock or Javid. Silly Boris with his silly vendettas.

    Yes, the choice between an obviously intelligent (whatever his other limitations) former Health Secretary who has kept up with the brief, and has clearly learned something from his previous mistakes, and a not obviously intelligent neophyte, is a pretty obvious one.
    Which is why Boris picked Javid.

    That the Health Service is about to be subjected to a major restructuring makes it even better.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    Very good news - especially when you consider where the major export market will be and the consequences of that.

    What consequences? EVs are not subject to tariffs and quotas.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Govt expecting a staggering 500,000 new COVID cases in the next two weeks alone... and that's BEFORE the unlocking when they'll rise further

    Possibly the right thing to do... but raises huge questions about thousands of younger people getting long COVID


    https://politi.co/3svJcDk https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1412309086423629824/photo/1
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    eek said:

    eek said:

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Not quite - the Government is subsidising car manufacturers at a time of total structural change in that industry.

    When everything is up in the air you need to offer subsidies to keep both the existing companies and encourage new ones.

    I suspect Tesla is regretting building their factory in Germany.
    Funny how there’s always non-Brexit reasons.
    This is an industry where subsidies have always exists - no-one has built or modernised a car factory in decades without incentives to do so.
    And Brexit has made those “incentives” even pricier.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    Jolyon Maugham oooops. He does seem accident-prone.

    "High-profile legal campaigners dealt blow in latest challenge to government – after correctly serving right papers a day too late"
    https://twitter.com/lawsocgazette/status/1412004683367989249


    I think it is one particular claim, but I'll need a legal opinion as to the breadth of impact on the overall PPE stuff.

    How can you “correctly serve” something a day late. If it’s late you’re not correct
    I think the legal establishment finally discovered irony after 1000 years ..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Charles said:

    CD13 said:

    What was the old saying about posh families? They sent the idiots of the family into the Army or the Church. Nowadays, its the the Army or Journalism.

    I don't watch the press conferences anymore. I'm not sure what's worse? BoJo's never-ending sentences, or the inane questions from the journalists?

    Oi! It’s not the idiots it’s the second and third sons…
    Those are not exclusive sets, of course.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
    The grim reaper?

    The human condition?

    Elton John (Circle of life)?

    People die. That's not any politicians fault.
    Decisions politicians make in these circumstances can affect the chances of it though. I support the latest moves but many decisions have affected how many might die.
    We've been reporting "coronavirus deaths" for the last few months, but had negative excess deaths since March and fewer than 1% of all deaths have been from Covid. Actually fewer than 1% of all deaths have been within 28 days of a Covid test, at this floor actually being from rather than with Covid may be even lower.

    It is neither possible nor desirable to "eliminate death".
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    Is there any evidence to suggest that intelligence falls as you move from first born through to last born?

    Asking for a friend.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths

    Johnson takes the credit where it is due on the vaccine, he also gets the blame when things go wrong. Welcome to politics, leadership and responsibility, Charles.

    Yes and no.

    The vaccine program was fully within the government's command. It set up the relevant groups, chose a portfolio of vaccines, procured them, and greased the wheels of industry. There have been issues, but on the whole they've done a very good job. The vaccine messaging has also been generally good, with a few small wobbles IMO.

    Similarly (and this gets much less coverage), the excellent genomics work at COG-UK. Literally a world-beater.

    The spread of the virus is much less under the government's control: the virus does what it 'wants'. The government can tell the public what to do, but absent a police state, it depends on the public's behaviour in following those rules. They are not helpless against the virus, but they have to be reactive - whereas the vaccine rollout has been much more under their control.

    Too many people also ignore the negatives of lockdown: not just fiscally, but also mentally and physically to the population.

    Of course, all this is right. But the government has made a decision to end all legal restrictions at a time when the virus is spreading at a rapid rate. All or nothing were not the only two options. The PM, though, has decided that they were. He must take responsibility for that. There is no-one else to blame.

    I love the way your mindset about this is to immediately talk about 'blame', as if it has already gone wrong. Would you and Starmer accept responsibility for the harm caused by an indefinite lockdown until infection levels reduce to some arbitrary level? What levels of infection are fine?

    I reckon Starmer may well be making pretty much the same decision if he was in power. After all, the scientists seem to agree with the government ... ;)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593
    MaxPB said:

    BBC business

    Vauxhall supported by HMG will build all new ev vans at Ellesmere Port for domestic and export markets

    Very good news - especially when you consider where the major export market will be and the consequences of that.

    What consequences? EVs are not subject to tariffs and quotas.

    They are subject to standards and to haulage and to customs check and various other things that could be problematic. I take the view that the government would not be investing money in such a project if it was expecting such problems.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited July 2021

    Old King Cole.

    I can assure you that Emma Raducanu's match was scheduled to be last on court 1 purely for the tv ratings. They do this with British players to catch the 6pm - 8pm (and now that they have the two roofs, later) slots. As you know, under local regs they can play under the lights until 11pm sharp.

    Many of the ladies singles were scheduled first on courts e.g. Elena Rybakina (21) was played at 11 am. Three other ladies matches went through first thing on Centre and No.1.

    The BBC's eyes lit up and they shunted all the BBC1 programmes off to BBC2 and brought Emma's match onto BBC1.

    It was a god-awful decision to schedule a young inexperienced girl like that.

    I've been listening to the debate on this. McEnroe made out with some reasonable-sounding comments. Gets excoriated by various personalities on The Opinion aka The Newspapers. This morning tennis experts seem to be saying the same as McEnroe.

    Checking, Raducanu has been on the full LTA support system for a long time, has her own quite eminent support team (eg Nigel Spears for the last 3 years), and has been winning tournaments internationally since 2018.

    Not really inexperienced.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Literally every country is doing it. Japan has set up a ¥1tn fund just for EV semi-conductors, our supposed £500m is a joke in comparison. The US fund is said to be over $100bn. Governments across the world are accelerating net zero day, this is the result of that decision.

    I'm amazed that with such tiny numbers the government has now got two EV deals and two gigafactories. It bodes well for the country that we're able to get these done without the mega billions some industry people said would be necessary.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited July 2021

    eek said:

    eek said:

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Not quite - the Government is subsidising car manufacturers at a time of total structural change in that industry.

    When everything is up in the air you need to offer subsidies to keep both the existing companies and encourage new ones.

    I suspect Tesla is regretting building their factory in Germany.
    Funny how there’s always non-Brexit reasons.
    This is an industry where subsidies have always exists - no-one has built or modernised a car factory in decades without incentives to do so.
    And Brexit has made those “incentives” even pricier.
    I'm afraid I don't think so. "Not-Brexit" EU countries are offering massively higher incentives.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths
    Last time I checked he was Prime Minister. If the buck doesn't stop with him then with whom?

    Vile? You really have come up with some snooty crap recently.
    The grim reaper?

    The human condition?

    Elton John (Circle of life)?

    People die. That's not any politicians fault.
    Decisions politicians make in these circumstances can affect the chances of it though. I support the latest moves but many decisions have affected how many might die.
    We've been reporting "coronavirus deaths" for the last few months, but had negative excess deaths since March and fewer than 1% of all deaths have been from Covid. Actually fewer than 1% of all deaths have been within 28 days of a Covid test, at this floor actually being from rather than with Covid may be even lower.

    It is neither possible nor desirable to "eliminate death".
    I don't disagree, but that's separate to your rather more general point that 'People die. that's not any politician's fault'.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Scott_xP said:

    Govt expecting a staggering 500,000 new COVID cases in the next two weeks alone... and that's BEFORE the unlocking when they'll rise further

    Possibly the right thing to do... but raises huge questions about thousands of younger people getting long COVID


    https://politi.co/3svJcDk https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1412309086423629824/photo/1

    That's an average of 35k per day. I mean we're already at 25k per day so if anything 500k in the next two weeks would represent a significant slowdown in the growth rate, the R might even be around 1 by the end.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
    He’s thinking about it politically

    If it goes well Boris was “reckless but lucky”

    If it doesn’t then he capitalises on all the downside

    It’s vile
    Calling for an incremental approach, which was government policy until the conservatives lost a couple of by-elections, is hardly vile.
    Ashcroft was setting up to blame Boris personally for all future deaths

    Johnson takes the credit where it is due on the vaccine, he also gets the blame when things go wrong. Welcome to politics, leadership and responsibility, Charles.

    Yes and no.

    The vaccine program was fully within the government's command. It set up the relevant groups, chose a portfolio of vaccines, procured them, and greased the wheels of industry. There have been issues, but on the whole they've done a very good job. The vaccine messaging has also been generally good, with a few small wobbles IMO.

    Similarly (and this gets much less coverage), the excellent genomics work at COG-UK. Literally a world-beater.

    The spread of the virus is much less under the government's control: the virus does what it 'wants'. The government can tell the public what to do, but absent a police state, it depends on the public's behaviour in following those rules. They are not helpless against the virus, but they have to be reactive - whereas the vaccine rollout has been much more under their control.

    Too many people also ignore the negatives of lockdown: not just fiscally, but also mentally and physically to the population.

    Of course, all this is right. But the government has made a decision to end all legal restrictions at a time when the virus is spreading at a rapid rate. All or nothing were not the only two options. The PM, though, has decided that they were. He must take responsibility for that. There is no-one else to blame.

    I love the way your mindset about this is to immediately talk about 'blame', as if it has already gone wrong. Would you and Starmer accept responsibility for the harm caused by an indefinite lockdown until infection levels reduce to some arbitrary level? What levels of infection are fine?

    I reckon Starmer may well be making pretty much the same decision if he was in power. After all, the scientists seem to agree with the government ... ;)

    I have no idea if it will go wrong. What I genuinely don't understand is why we are at a binary all or nothing point. I suspect that if Starmer were in charge we would be seeing further relaxations, but not a total end to all restrictions.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    edited July 2021
    MaxPB said:

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Literally every country is doing it. Japan has set up a ¥1tn fund just for EV semi-conductors, our supposed £500m is a joke in comparison. The US fund is said to be over $100bn. Governments across the world are accelerating net zero day, this is the result of that decision.

    I'm amazed that with such tiny numbers the government has now got two EV deals and two gigafactories. It bodes well for the country that we're able to get these done without the mega billions some industry people said would be necessary.
    There's a real Gotterdamerung of fury rising against Boris Johnson here this morning, over the Ellsemere Port news, and the move to Step 4 on 19th July.

    One might almost think some people will be quite upset if economic catastrophe and widespread fatalities do not ensue.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    edited July 2021
    Last night I watched the first episode of “1971:The Year That Music Changed Everything” on Apple+.

    Bloody brilliant.

    By the director of “Amy” and “Senna”.

    These sorts of music documentaries can be quite cliched, but this is more ambitious and they’ve very cleverly interwoven the music and politics, with some great footage.

    Based on a British book, and with a British director; sad in a way that it is for a US network and hence US-focused.

    1971 was probably peak pop year (for albums; I’d put 1967 as peak for singles).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    eek said:

    eek said:

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Not quite - the Government is subsidising car manufacturers at a time of total structural change in that industry.

    When everything is up in the air you need to offer subsidies to keep both the existing companies and encourage new ones.

    I suspect Tesla is regretting building their factory in Germany.
    Funny how there’s always non-Brexit reasons.
    This is an industry where subsidies have always exists - no-one has built or modernised a car factory in decades without incentives to do so.
    And Brexit has made those “incentives” even pricier.
    What prices have been paid?

    IIRC the Nissan one the other day was £100 million in tax breaks. Again, IIRC, the original incentives for Nissan to setup here when Maggie Thatcher was doing it, were of a similar size.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    eek said:

    eek said:

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Not quite - the Government is subsidising car manufacturers at a time of total structural change in that industry.

    When everything is up in the air you need to offer subsidies to keep both the existing companies and encourage new ones.

    I suspect Tesla is regretting building their factory in Germany.
    Funny how there’s always non-Brexit reasons.
    This is an industry where subsidies have always exists - no-one has built or modernised a car factory in decades without incentives to do so.
    And Brexit has made those “incentives” even pricier.

    Where’s your evidence for that ?
    eek said:

    The government is being forced to subsidise car manufacturers to keep them open post-Brexit.

    We all know this.

    Car manufacturing was always going to become less profitable post Brexit. Add them to the list along with fishers etc, who are also in receipt of various bungs.

    Let’s save £350m a week and spend it on no-longer productive business instead!

    Not quite - the Government is subsidising car manufacturers at a time of total structural change in that industry.

    When everything is up in the air you need to offer subsidies to keep both the existing companies and encourage new ones.

    I suspect Tesla is regretting building their factory in Germany.
    There is still talk of a Tesla factory here. Either in Somerset or Teeside.
This discussion has been closed.