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Some of the front pages following BoJo’s big COVID gamble – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,158
edited July 2021 in General
imageSome of the front pages following BoJo’s big COVID gamble – politicalbetting.com

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,601
    First
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Has a fox ever been shotter than contrarian's? T & P.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,601
    Somebody messaged me earlier.

    'Today's the day Boris Johnson won the next election or keeps the Tories out of power for a generation.'

    I'm leaning towards the former.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687
    Interesting how personalised on Johnson this is. Johnson's gamble etc etc.

    If this goes totally tits up in early September he's in a bit of trouble.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687
    edited July 2021
    FPT:

    "The combination of Boris Derangement Syndrome, Zerocovidianism, and the intellectual hatred of England that Orwell remarked upon is a heady intoxicant."

    Made me :lol:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    rkrkrk said:

    gealbhan said:

    glw said:

    Focusing purely on this country, what has the opposition actually argued for in the pandemic? Basically all they've done is said they'd have done things "better". They'd have made test and trace better, they'd have had a better vaccine rollout, they'd have had a better furlough scheme, they'd have had better border controls, they'd have made better decisions based on "the science". It's just cheap talk. I'm not sure at any point they've ever really contributed much original to the whole handling of the pandemic, or even explained how those things could actually have been done better, just that they ought to have been.

    Hey, maybe they really would have just done everything better, or maybe it'd have just been exactly the same but with different personalities. We'll never know.

    The opposition has been consistently shit, and has made essentially no useful contributions at all. I think given the job the opposition would have actually been worse than the Tories, because Boris doesn't do micro-managing or follow any doctrine, so to an extent his lack of principles and laziness has at least enabled competent people to get on with the job without the PM messing them around. I think any opposition government would have interfered quite a bit more.
    you, Pirate Britain Libertarian Right Wing Populists. You deserve a proper talking down to on the politics and science of this.

    Where the government are this evening is ignorant and wrong. Where Starmer and Labour are this evening is spot on. Clear pandemic water between the two main party’s now. The government are no longer following science at all, this simply about the politics of over promising in the first place and having too many looneys on the back benches.

    Here’s scientific fact for you, we need masks and other measures to protect the vaccines, just allowing infections to rip in a mostly doubled jabbed population erodes the efficacy of the vaccines. That is science fact.

    It’s totally irresponsible of government not to lead on mask wearing, and to open up so quickly. They are simply sloping shoulders onto business how to protect employees and customers, not taking the lead. The government are murdering the still much needed test and trace and isolating, and that is disgraceful at this stage.
    "allowing infections to rip in a mostly doubled jabbed population erodes the efficacy of the vaccines"

    How does that work?
    I think the ideal scenario to create a vaccine resistant virus would be high rates of transmission in a partially immunized population. Which is not totally different from the situation we have now?

    This seems to be what Sharon Peacock is saying here:
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-variants-vaccine-setback-1.6046643
    That's simply not true, and the problem is that you are thinking of this like a bacterial infection. And it's nothing like that.

    The frequency of mutations is a function of the number of human hosts spewing out massive quantities of the virus. Because that's what viruses do: they turn your cells into factories for reproduction.

    Mutations occur when your cells chuck out a slightly different version of the virus, and that infects another cell in your body, and then it too is chucking out a different version. If that version is better able to infect and reproduce, then it will gain share.

    The more people there are with chronic conditions, the more opportunities for mutation there are. This is fundamentally different to a bacterial infection where you wipe out 99% of bacteria, but leave a pristine situation for the other 1% to thrive.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,601
    edited July 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Has a fox ever been shotter than contrarian's? T & P.

    IOS on GE2015 night at 9.55pm saying Labour's ground game had won them the election.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651

    Somebody messaged me earlier.

    'Today's the day Boris Johnson won the next election or keeps the Tories out of power for a generation.'

    I'm leaning towards the former.

    Only if he calls a summer election - which he won't, of course.

    I fear the UK, and indeed the world, is going to suffer a form of long-Covid with the pandemic never really finishing, just fading away. Any gains for Johnson from a perceived Covid victory will be very short-lived as the reality of dealing with the aftermath quickly bites.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    edited July 2021

    Somebody messaged me earlier.

    'Today's the day Boris Johnson won the next election or keeps the Tories out of power for a generation.'

    I'm leaning towards the former.

    I'm leaning towards the messenger being wrong.
    There'll be another announcement next week. This isn't that important a step in the grand scheme of Covid.
    The economic fallout begins.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    NEW: Israel reports nearly 500 new coronavirus cases, biggest one-day increase since March

    Out of interest, why is the reality of Israeli cases starting to rise again any sort of a story? We know cases of delta will spread rapidly in a highly vaccinated country which has largely or totally opened up. Because, UK.

    Is it just because they are entirely Pfizer or something?
    Because of the general uselessness of the media in adding 2 + 2 and other advanced mathematics.

    Once the Delta variants R number became apparent, it meant 2 things were clear

    - The threshold for herd immunity by vaccination had been lifted to a very high level.
    - This is much higher than Israel (or probably any other country) is likely to achieve through voluntary vaccination.

    Therefore Delta will sweep through countries. Even Chinese style lockdowns are unlikely to stop it. The outcome will be a function of the level of vaccination.
    Exactly right. With a R of 3, then it's quite easy to get to herd immunity off voluntary vaccine update in adults. But with an R of 6 it is essentially impossible.

    So, you need to do one of two things: boost the number vaccinated (by adding children as France and the US, or by adding some degree of compulsion), or accept that Covid will sweep through unvaccinated communities.
    And the UK can't really do the first any time soon- we've not got enough mRNA vaccines coming before the autumn. So we either keep the social distancing going (school summer holidays should help from late July to the end of August), or...

    (Yes, there's enough vaccine to do nearly all adults, and we're close to that on first doses. But that's a finish line that we've put in place, when it seemed likely to be enough to make any future flare-ups self-limiting. If delta Coivd has moved the goalposts, there's no point whinging about it.)
    We have though. The new Pfizer order has commenced deliveries, that's 2.3m per week from July onwards. That will filter into the front line at the end next week just as the first dose programme completes at about 47m people.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....and of course case numbers are a lagging indicator, by the time you think you might have a problem, you have a problem.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    IshmaelZ said:

    Has a fox ever been shotter than contrarian's? T & P.

    But the big question is contrarian already vaccinated despite claiming he isn't or is contrarian now panicking about not being vaccinated in an open country.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,112
    edited July 2021

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....and of course case numbers are a lagging indicator, by the time you think you might have a problem, you have a problem.

    R rate in Luxembourg is currently 2.3. Spain 1.6. UK 1.5.

    just in the place in Europe where it is densely populated and cosmopolitan.

    Following a very similar profile a few weeks behind.

    And all those deliberately open borders...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    MaxPB said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
    I have close relatives in Australia who are in utter despair, and now feeling that they will never be allowed to travel anywhere. Which, if you are Australian, is not a great sensation, seeing as the entire nation started as a penal colony from which you explicitly could not go anywhere
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
    The magic cloak doesn't seem to be working in Spain and Portugal....and where will loads of German's and Eastern Europeans be going on their holidays right about now.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
    Macron went weeks last autumn trying to keep France open with largely inconsequential restrictions in an unvaccinated world until finally giving in to another lockdown. Daily case numbers even hit 90k at one point with him ploughing on.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MaxPB said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
    The magic cloak doesn't seem to be working in Spain and Portugal....and where will loads of German's and Eastern Europeans be going on their holidays right about now.
    But this is a Twitter magic cloak.

    The one nation the magic cloak doesn't work in is Hungary.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited July 2021
    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777
    "Overall, 48 per cent of all adults, including families, backed quarantine-free holidays for double jabbed Britons, according to the Yougov poll of 2,200 adults."

    And this is why all lockdown polling is bullshit. People want the old life back but think it can be had without any real effect on the domestic situation.

    We're in this odd situation of people saying yes to keeping restrictions but also saying yes to getting rid of all the measures.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,601
    Absolutely gutted to learn that Richard Donner has died.

    Aw, man. Richard Donner has gone. Thanks for everything, Dick. For the best Superman, for Riggs and Murtaugh, for cutting David Warner’s head off and showing it from 278 different angles, for directing some of my favourite movies, and for teaching me what ‘verisimilitude’ means.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1412136037154004998

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/jul/05/richard-donner-dead-91-director-superman-goonies
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    MaxPB said:

    "Overall, 48 per cent of all adults, including families, backed quarantine-free holidays for double jabbed Britons, according to the Yougov poll of 2,200 adults."

    And this is why all lockdown polling is bullshit. People want the old life back but think it can be had without any real effect on the domestic situation.

    We're in this odd situation of people saying yes to keeping restrictions but also saying yes to getting rid of all the measures.

    As I have repeatedly said, its like polling on higher taxes....loads of people for them, until they are told what me...I have to pay more.....but I'm not one of those rich fat cats.

    Here it is lockdown, lockdown harder, lockdown eternity....what do you mean I can't go on my usual foreign holiday or if I want to, I have to quarantine for 2 weeks. I've been pinged and have to isolate, f##k that I'm off down to Tescos to get ice cream.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    On topic - of course one of the problems Johnson has is that some of the nuances behind the rationale for carrying on are being wilfully ignored by the Govt’s critics. Things like it is better to ride an exit wave now than in the future.

    So he will likely cop a great deal of flack even if things proceed largely as expected/intended. Leaving him the the unfortunate position of secretly (from a purely political perspective) hoping that other countries get hit at least as badly if not worse*

    Of course one of the almost completely unrecognised realities of the second/third wave is actually that, even despite the horrors of January, the UK have actually fared as well if not better than all of the other large European countries.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,540
    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    You forget to mention Stoke-on-Trent and Hartlepool.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Absolutely gutted to learn that Richard Donner has died.

    Aw, man. Richard Donner has gone. Thanks for everything, Dick. For the best Superman, for Riggs and Murtaugh, for cutting David Warner’s head off and showing it from 278 different angles, for directing some of my favourite movies, and for teaching me what ‘verisimilitude’ means.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1412136037154004998

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/jul/05/richard-donner-dead-91-director-superman-goonies

    He got too old for this shit. RIP. :(
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,601

    MaxPB said:

    "Overall, 48 per cent of all adults, including families, backed quarantine-free holidays for double jabbed Britons, according to the Yougov poll of 2,200 adults."

    And this is why all lockdown polling is bullshit. People want the old life back but think it can be had without any real effect on the domestic situation.

    We're in this odd situation of people saying yes to keeping restrictions but also saying yes to getting rid of all the measures.

    As I have repeatedly said, its like polling on higher taxes....loads of people for them, until they are told what me...I have to pay more.....but I'm not one of those rich fat cats.

    Here it is lockdown, lockdown harder, lockdown eternity....what do you mean I can't go on my usual foreign holiday or if I want to, I have to quarantine for 2 weeks.
    It's more like those polls which shows simultaneously the public want

    1) Lower taxes
    2) Increased government spending/no cuts
    3) Lower deficits
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    You forget to mention Stoke-on-Trent and Hartlepool.
    I bet you don't get double espressos in builders mugs in Seville like I did last time I was in Stoke-On-Trent...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    Move over Hancock...

    The Armed Forces' 'mental health champion' is being investigated over claims of an affair with the wife of a junior soldier who approached him for help.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9758555/Armys-mental-health-tsar-faces-probe-claim-affair-wife-soldier-wanted-help.html
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,601

    Absolutely gutted to learn that Richard Donner has died.

    Aw, man. Richard Donner has gone. Thanks for everything, Dick. For the best Superman, for Riggs and Murtaugh, for cutting David Warner’s head off and showing it from 278 different angles, for directing some of my favourite movies, and for teaching me what ‘verisimilitude’ means.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1412136037154004998

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/jul/05/richard-donner-dead-91-director-superman-goonies

    He got too old for this shit. RIP. :(
    I was going to bed but now I'm going to watch Superman II: The Donner Cut.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
    I have close relatives in Australia who are in utter despair, and now feeling that they will never be allowed to travel anywhere. Which, if you are Australian, is not a great sensation, seeing as the entire nation started as a penal colony from which you explicitly could not go anywhere
    One of the fascinations of reading the news reports out of Australia at the moment is finding out quite such a small country it appears to be for one with a reasonably large population. Reading the daily updates of “places of concern” makes their largest cities sound like tiny English villages.

    “KFC on the high street between 9 and 9.30 pm”. “The number thirty bus between 12.09 and 12.29am”. “Woolworths in The Eastern district between 1 and 2pm etc”...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    I think the biggest danger for Boris / government is if they end up re-implementing restrictions in the autumn / winter.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    MattW said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....and of course case numbers are a lagging indicator, by the time you think you might have a problem, you have a problem.

    R rate in Luxembourg is currently 2.3. Spain 1.6. UK 1.5.

    just in the place in Europe where it is densely populated and cosmopolitan.

    Following a very similar profile a few weeks behind.

    And all those deliberately open borders...
    Once Delta is well seeded (as it is right now), I doubt open borders makes much difference.

    It is worth remembering three other things:

    1. Europe is very lucky that their school holidays have pretty much all started now. That means that the biggest vector for the transmission of Delta (children at school) has now been closed.

    2. They aren't so far behind us on vaccinations now. Spain now has 65% of adults with at least one dose, and 44% fully vaccinated. That's where the UK was five weeks ago, and the the EU is putting 27-28m doses in arms every week.

    3. There's less of a "zero Covid" thing in the EU. Most countries are happy with higher background levels of infections and deaths than we are, and that's probably the right call.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,158
    MaxPB said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
    You want the exit wave in the UK when the sun is high in the sky producing vitamin D for everyone.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    To Kill A Mockingbird will no longer be taught to pupils at a secondary school after teachers claimed the book promotes a "white saviour" narrative.

    The seminal text is to be excluded from classrooms at James Gillespie High School in Edinburgh as part of wider plans to decolonise the curriculum amid concerns over its "dated" approach to race.

    John Steinbeck’s classic novel Of Mice and Men will also be phased out over its use of the N-word, according to Allan Crosbie, the school’s head of English.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/05/school-cancels-kill-mockingbird-white-saviour-narrative/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Absolutely gutted to learn that Richard Donner has died.

    Aw, man. Richard Donner has gone. Thanks for everything, Dick. For the best Superman, for Riggs and Murtaugh, for cutting David Warner’s head off and showing it from 278 different angles, for directing some of my favourite movies, and for teaching me what ‘verisimilitude’ means.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1412136037154004998

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/jul/05/richard-donner-dead-91-director-superman-goonies

    He got too old for this shit. RIP. :(
    I was going to bed but now I'm going to watch Superman II: The Donner Cut.
    Nice.

    This is a great thread on how Donner put together this scene. https://twitter.com/tvaziri/status/905482730443386880

    The intelligence he used to make movies so fantastic, without the technologies that we have now to take for granted, was really good.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
    You want the exit wave in the UK when the sun is high in the sky producing vitamin D for everyone.
    If vitamin D really is a thing why aren’t we all being told about it, and to go and get pills if necessary? Can you overdose on it?

    Or maybe the Government is secretly buying up the entire U.K. supply to give out for free when they’ve got enough...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    I honestly don't know the answer to this and would like to know....in a normal year, how many people in the UK are hospitalized with flu / pneumonia on a daily basis?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,112
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    NEW: Israel reports nearly 500 new coronavirus cases, biggest one-day increase since March

    Out of interest, why is the reality of Israeli cases starting to rise again any sort of a story? We know cases of delta will spread rapidly in a highly vaccinated country which has largely or totally opened up. Because, UK.

    Is it just because they are entirely Pfizer or something?
    Because of the general uselessness of the media in adding 2 + 2 and other advanced mathematics.

    Once the Delta variants R number became apparent, it meant 2 things were clear

    - The threshold for herd immunity by vaccination had been lifted to a very high level.
    - This is much higher than Israel (or probably any other country) is likely to achieve through voluntary vaccination.

    Therefore Delta will sweep through countries. Even Chinese style lockdowns are unlikely to stop it. The outcome will be a function of the level of vaccination.
    Exactly right. With a R of 3, then it's quite easy to get to herd immunity off voluntary vaccine update in adults. But with an R of 6 it is essentially impossible.

    So, you need to do one of two things: boost the number vaccinated (by adding children as France and the US, or by adding some degree of compulsion), or accept that Covid will sweep through unvaccinated communities.
    And the UK can't really do the first any time soon- we've not got enough mRNA vaccines coming before the autumn. So we either keep the social distancing going (school summer holidays should help from late July to the end of August), or...

    (Yes, there's enough vaccine to do nearly all adults, and we're close to that on first doses. But that's a finish line that we've put in place, when it seemed likely to be enough to make any future flare-ups self-limiting. If delta Coivd has moved the goalposts, there's no point whinging about it.)
    We have though. The new Pfizer order has commenced deliveries, that's 2.3m per week from July onwards. That will filter into the front line at the end next week just as the first dose programme completes at about 47m people.
    Have the Govt deliberately underplayed the speed of the continued rollout amongst 18-39s do you think?

    That is a game they have very likely played before.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    alex_ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....

    They have a magical cloak of being in the EU, though.

    The vaccinated world is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation this summer wrt unlockdown. Most countries will do what Boris has just done and remove the restrictions for fear of a much worse exit wave in the autumn.
    You want the exit wave in the UK when the sun is high in the sky producing vitamin D for everyone.
    If vitamin D really is a thing why aren’t we all being told about it, and to go and get pills if necessary? Can you overdose on it?

    Or maybe the Government is secretly buying up the entire U.K. supply to give out for free when they’ve got enough...
    The government did exactly that....they sent out free Vitamin D to a load of people in the spring.

    Taking very high levels of Vitamin D for long periods isn't advisable, I believe one side effect is increased chances of kidney problems.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846

    MaxPB said:

    "Overall, 48 per cent of all adults, including families, backed quarantine-free holidays for double jabbed Britons, according to the Yougov poll of 2,200 adults."

    And this is why all lockdown polling is bullshit. People want the old life back but think it can be had without any real effect on the domestic situation.

    We're in this odd situation of people saying yes to keeping restrictions but also saying yes to getting rid of all the measures.

    As I have repeatedly said, its like polling on higher taxes....loads of people for them, until they are told what me...I have to pay more.....but I'm not one of those rich fat cats.

    Here it is lockdown, lockdown harder, lockdown eternity....what do you mean I can't go on my usual foreign holiday or if I want to, I have to quarantine for 2 weeks.
    It's more like those polls which shows simultaneously the public want

    1) Lower taxes
    2) Increased government spending/no cuts
    3) Lower deficits
    Economic growth could deliver all three simultaneously provided we keep the austerity hawks away from HM Treasury.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Take a guess ...... :smiley:
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,655

    Absolutely gutted to learn that Richard Donner has died.

    Aw, man. Richard Donner has gone. Thanks for everything, Dick. For the best Superman, for Riggs and Murtaugh, for cutting David Warner’s head off and showing it from 278 different angles, for directing some of my favourite movies, and for teaching me what ‘verisimilitude’ means.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1412136037154004998

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/jul/05/richard-donner-dead-91-director-superman-goonies

    He will forever be remembered for his kebabs
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I think the biggest danger for Boris / government is if they end up re-implementing restrictions in the autumn / winter.

    I think there's a fat chance of that.

    The vaccinations are pretty much done and now for those who haven't had it (hello contrarian) the virus is going to burn out over summer. Which is precisely when it should.

    What's going to be left by the autumn? Virtually everyone will have had the virus or the vaccine so how would a new surge happen again to overwhelm the NHS?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,601

    To Kill A Mockingbird will no longer be taught to pupils at a secondary school after teachers claimed the book promotes a "white saviour" narrative.

    The seminal text is to be excluded from classrooms at James Gillespie High School in Edinburgh as part of wider plans to decolonise the curriculum amid concerns over its "dated" approach to race.

    John Steinbeck’s classic novel Of Mice and Men will also be phased out over its use of the N-word, according to Allan Crosbie, the school’s head of English.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/05/school-cancels-kill-mockingbird-white-saviour-narrative/

    Utter balls.

    To Kill A Mockingbird had a profound effect on me as a child.

    The film adaptation of it made me a huge fan of Gregory Peck.

    As a child there were seven films I had on a loop.

    Episode IV-VI of Star Wars, The Wrath of Khan, Raiders Of The Lost Ark, To Kill A Mockingbird, and Inherit The Wind.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Re: booster jabs. Why is all the talk of waiting til the autumn? Why not get it going a bit earlier? There are a few people who had their second jab in January.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MaxPB said:

    "Overall, 48 per cent of all adults, including families, backed quarantine-free holidays for double jabbed Britons, according to the Yougov poll of 2,200 adults."

    And this is why all lockdown polling is bullshit. People want the old life back but think it can be had without any real effect on the domestic situation.

    We're in this odd situation of people saying yes to keeping restrictions but also saying yes to getting rid of all the measures.

    As I have repeatedly said, its like polling on higher taxes....loads of people for them, until they are told what me...I have to pay more.....but I'm not one of those rich fat cats.

    Here it is lockdown, lockdown harder, lockdown eternity....what do you mean I can't go on my usual foreign holiday or if I want to, I have to quarantine for 2 weeks.
    It's more like those polls which shows simultaneously the public want

    1) Lower taxes
    2) Increased government spending/no cuts
    3) Lower deficits
    Economic growth could deliver all three simultaneously provided we keep the austerity hawks away from HM Treasury.
    Indeed. Cut taxes and grow the pie.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110

    Absolutely gutted to learn that Richard Donner has died.

    Aw, man. Richard Donner has gone. Thanks for everything, Dick. For the best Superman, for Riggs and Murtaugh, for cutting David Warner’s head off and showing it from 278 different angles, for directing some of my favourite movies, and for teaching me what ‘verisimilitude’ means.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1412136037154004998

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/jul/05/richard-donner-dead-91-director-superman-goonies

    He will forever be remembered for his kebabs
    And his party.

    (Americans will get the joke.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    alex_ said:

    Re: booster jabs. Why is all the talk of waiting til the autumn? Why not get it going a bit earlier? There are a few people who had their second jab in January.

    I think the idea is to get a booster jab that is tailored to the Gamma and Delta variants in peoples' arms. Which means waiting a bit.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,112
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....and of course case numbers are a lagging indicator, by the time you think you might have a problem, you have a problem.

    R rate in Luxembourg is currently 2.3. Spain 1.6. UK 1.5.

    just in the place in Europe where it is densely populated and cosmopolitan.

    Following a very similar profile a few weeks behind.

    And all those deliberately open borders...
    Once Delta is well seeded (as it is right now), I doubt open borders makes much difference.

    It is worth remembering three other things:

    1. Europe is very lucky that their school holidays have pretty much all started now. That means that the biggest vector for the transmission of Delta (children at school) has now been closed.

    2. They aren't so far behind us on vaccinations now. Spain now has 65% of adults with at least one dose, and 44% fully vaccinated. That's where the UK was five weeks ago, and the the EU is putting 27-28m doses in arms every week.

    3. There's less of a "zero Covid" thing in the EU. Most countries are happy with higher background levels of infections and deaths than we are, and that's probably the right call.
    1 - Fair point.

    2 - Yes - 5 weeks or so is reasonable if Spain maintain their current 1% per day jab rate, and they don't slow down or hit a ceiling.

    3 - Perhaps.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Yes

    Sir Keir is saying it’s reckless, it should be done gradually etc, but that is what’s happening! We were meant to be fully open a month earlier, but the government were cautious. I don’t see why he is calling for even more caution on the back of the vaccines working as intended. It really is a case of being paralysed by fear. I live with an unvaccinated vulnerable person, we have to be careful, but that doesn’t mean the whole of society has to join us
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Fantastic from Madeley, absolutely brilliant. He gets a lot of stick, but this was great. And he looks great for his age too
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I thought the only reason we delayed opening up completely was the worry over the variant formerly known as Indian being less resistant to the vaccines, so we bought a bit more time? Deaths haven’t gone up much, intensive cares are not overwhelmed, so why are people, including those who moaned when the re opening was delayed, calling it a gamble now?

    Because the UK, almost uniquely in the developed world, seems to have Zerocovidians at the very highest level of public discourse.

    It's a real shame. It's OK to have even 50,000 cases of Covid a day *if* they are not leading to particularly heightened levels of hospitalisations and deaths.

    Indeed, it would probably be more useful for the government to target hospitalisations and deaths rather than cases per se, because the reality is that people *aren't* getting really sick right now, because the most vulnerable have been vaccinated.
    Although 50 000 cases a day won't do much for the economic recovery if we have 100's of thousands off work and not spending because they are at home in bed.
    Some people are still getting quite sick if not bad enough for hospital. Even when double vaxxed.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Absolutely gutted to learn that Richard Donner has died.

    Aw, man. Richard Donner has gone. Thanks for everything, Dick. For the best Superman, for Riggs and Murtaugh, for cutting David Warner’s head off and showing it from 278 different angles, for directing some of my favourite movies, and for teaching me what ‘verisimilitude’ means.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1412136037154004998

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/jul/05/richard-donner-dead-91-director-superman-goonies

    He got too old for this shit. RIP. :(
    I was going to bed but now I'm going to watch Superman II: The Donner Cut.
    Nice.

    This is a great thread on how Donner put together this scene. https://twitter.com/tvaziri/status/905482730443386880

    The intelligence he used to make movies so fantastic, without the technologies that we have now to take for granted, was really good.
    My impression is that whilst modern CGI allows things that Directors of the past could only dream of, because of the minuscule cost involved, for the most part it also makes them extremely lazy and too many no longer really aspire to a sense of realism in what they are delivering and/or aren’t prepared to put the thought in to try and achieve it.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,655
    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Tory scientists.

    Small state view has influence on their science.

    Same difference.

    Madeley is Partridge.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777
    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Re: booster jabs. Why is all the talk of waiting til the autumn? Why not get it going a bit earlier? There are a few people who had their second jab in January.

    I think the idea is to get a booster jab that is tailored to the Gamma and Delta variants in peoples' arms. Which means waiting a bit.
    I don't think it's very likely with production schedules. Aiui the government enquired to Pfizer about getting delivery of a variant tailored vaccine for Q4 and splitting the order in half but we're told that Q1 is the absolute earliest they can deliver in enough volume.

    We may strike it lucky with AZ as our domestic production is now nicely built up and slotting the new vaccine in here should be easy but AZ need to get the trial absolutely right this time. No fuck ups and "ethical concerns" about giving it to old people. They're exactly the people who need, not testing it in that cohort was probably the less ethical decision in the end.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,601
    edited July 2021
    This is why I'm never going to the toilet again.

    A 65-year-old man was left with minor injuries after a reticulated python bit him while he was sitting on the toilet.

    He was said to have felt a "pinch in the area of his genitals" before noticing a five foot (1.6 metres) snake beneath him in the toilet bowl at his home in the Austrian city of Graz.

    The python, a constrictor native to Asia which can grow to a length of nearly 30ft (nine metres), is thought to have found its way into the toilet via the network of drains....

    ...A 24-year-old neighbour, who owns 11 snakes, has been reported to the prosecutors' office on suspicion of negligently causing bodily harm, the police added.


    https://news.sky.com/story/nasty-surprise-as-man-bitten-by-python-while-sat-on-the-toilet-12349246

    Can we put snake owners in the same category as terrorists?

    Extraordinary rendition for snake owners would be a vote winner.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,542
    Leon said:

    FPT for Mr Nabavi


    It’s struck me these last few days: how deeply fortunate we are to be European.

    Fly for ~2 hours from london and you can be in Seville, Lisbon, Venice, the alps, the Cyclades, the Nordic fjords - or Berlin, Barcelona, Biarritz, the Basque Country. The Balearics.

    The Hebrides, Brittany, the Black Forest; Naples and northumberland, Amsterdam and county Kerry, Paris and penzance.

    What a wealth. And it is our backyard and our backstory, our patrimony and our inheritance. A place where no one starves and health care is humane. The most beautiful, cultured, civilised place on earth by an enormous distance. Covid-19, with its terrible restrictions on travel, really rams that home. If you have to be restricted to anywhere, you’d want it to be Europe

    The Remain campaign really did a terrible job

    Make it three and it gets you Sicily, Iceland and Budapest....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    Everyone should check the thread header to appreciate the Daily Star's front page, and save themselves £100 a year's subscription to Dominic Cummings' Substack.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270

    I think the biggest danger for Boris / government is if they end up re-implementing restrictions in the autumn / winter.

    I think there's a fat chance of that.

    The vaccinations are pretty much done and now for those who haven't had it (hello contrarian) the virus is going to burn out over summer. Which is precisely when it should.

    What's going to be left by the autumn? Virtually everyone will have had the virus or the vaccine so how would a new surge happen again to overwhelm the NHS?
    I wouldn't rule anything out.

    Of course they will implement restrictions again if a variant poses problem at the perfect time of year for respiratory viruses i.e. late autumn and heading into winter. And by problems I mean hospitalisations and deaths.

    A new variant coupled with a bad flu season (there is a lot of fear that this year could be a bad one for flu) could put a lot of pressure on our health services.

    But then again it could be quiet and the booster programme which is going to happen in the autumn keeps on top of it all and we carry on...

    Like I said you cannot predict anything right now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Tory scientists.

    Small state view has influence on their science.

    Same difference.

    Madeley is Partridge.
    Fuck off old boy

    She’s not even a proper scientist. She’s not a biologist or a virologist or an epidemiologist. She’s a ‘behavioural psychologist’ and a hardcore communist

    That’s not the same as being “a small state Tory” that’s more like being an Islamofascist or a BNP member with hints of Nazism. She eagerly supports a creed which has slaughtered millions and which, in China, is committing genocide today

    Fuck her. Throw her off the committee. More pointedly, watch the clip. She cannot answer the question
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Fantastic from Madeley, absolutely brilliant. He gets a lot of stick, but this was great. And he looks great for his age too

    He nails her brilliantly. I think she is actually evil

    I have met Madeley, He is super intelligent, hence his success. The affable, bumbling TV persona is an act. He’s immensely sharp
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....and of course case numbers are a lagging indicator, by the time you think you might have a problem, you have a problem.

    R rate in Luxembourg is currently 2.3. Spain 1.6. UK 1.5.

    just in the place in Europe where it is densely populated and cosmopolitan.

    Following a very similar profile a few weeks behind.

    And all those deliberately open borders...
    Once Delta is well seeded (as it is right now), I doubt open borders makes much difference.

    It is worth remembering three other things:

    1. Europe is very lucky that their school holidays have pretty much all started now. That means that the biggest vector for the transmission of Delta (children at school) has now been closed.

    2. They aren't so far behind us on vaccinations now. Spain now has 65% of adults with at least one dose, and 44% fully vaccinated. That's where the UK was five weeks ago, and the the EU is putting 27-28m doses in arms every week.

    3. There's less of a "zero Covid" thing in the EU. Most countries are happy with higher background levels of infections and deaths than we are, and that's probably the right call.
    1 - Fair point.

    2 - Yes - 5 weeks or so is reasonable if Spain maintain their current 1% per day jab rate, and they don't slow down or hit a ceiling.

    3 - Perhaps.
    Re 2, I'm sure they will all hit ceilings or at least slow down. The UK probably has one of the highest levels of vaccine acceptance in the world.

    That being said it's worth noting that most of the major EU countries are now level with the US for proportion of adults with at least one jab:
    Belgium             78%
    Finland 73%
    Netherlands 73%
    USA 67%
    Italy 67%
    Spain 65%
    France 64%
    Germany 64%
    Now, while they're behind for full vaccinations, this is a pretty solid indicator that vaccine hesitancy there is going to be no worse (and probably better) than in the US.

    Plus, ultimately, once a vaccine has been offered to all adults, then those that end up with Covid... well, that's really their problem.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,883
    OT. The most unflattering obituary ever but extremely readable! "How Donal Rumsfeld Deserves to be Remembered"

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/how-donald-rumsfeld-deserves-be-remembered/619334/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Actually Madeley is/was a serious journalist. He became associated with daytime fluff presumably because the money was far better than pounding the news trail. But he was a proper news reporter in his younger days.
    Yes, see my other comment. I’ve met him and we have mutual friends. He’s seriously clever. He persuaded a very doubtful friend of mine that Brexit would win, et voila
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus. So his personal politics is absolutely irrelevant, as he has showed he is no interest in engaging in that sort of thing.

    As soon as she starts to say well I only come on programmes to talk about "the science", I would be pulling out the quotes where she was happy to tell us his opinion for solving the pandemic requiring the whole country needing to be radically altered.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    As an aside, Iceland is now at 88% of adults with at least one vaccine dose, and that increased by no less than 5% last week, so they may manage the record for least vaccine hesitancy.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Actually Madeley is/was a serious journalist. He became associated with daytime fluff presumably because the money was far better than pounding the news trail. But he was a proper news reporter in his younger days.
    Yes, see my other comment. I’ve met him and we have mutual friends. He’s seriously clever. He persuaded a very doubtful friend of mine that Brexit would win, et voila
    Is he likely to get the gig on GMB full time, do you think?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, Iceland is now at 88% of adults with at least one vaccine dose, and that increased by no less than 5% last week, so they may manage the record for least vaccine hesitancy.

    Wouldn't surprise me if a Nordic country ended up with the highest rates. They tend to be quite sensible.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, Iceland is now at 88% of adults with at least one vaccine dose, and that increased by no less than 5% last week, so they may manage the record for least vaccine hesitancy.

    Yeah it's probably easier to do in tiny states.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Actually Madeley is/was a serious journalist. He became associated with daytime fluff presumably because the money was far better than pounding the news trail. But he was a proper news reporter in his younger days.
    Yes, see my other comment. I’ve met him and we have mutual friends. He’s seriously clever. He persuaded a very doubtful friend of mine that Brexit would win, et voila
    Is he likely to get the gig on GMB full time, do you think?
    They’d be very wise to choose him. He’s a free thinker and properly combative without being a twat like Morgan. He’s also a total pro on live TV. Might be more of a question: does he want the full time job

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Strangely the media didn't think Europe opening up despite far lower level of vaccinations was at all a gamble....

    Yes they currently have lower case numbers, but unless you run a prison island approach, COVID will find you....and of course case numbers are a lagging indicator, by the time you think you might have a problem, you have a problem.

    R rate in Luxembourg is currently 2.3. Spain 1.6. UK 1.5.

    just in the place in Europe where it is densely populated and cosmopolitan.

    Following a very similar profile a few weeks behind.

    And all those deliberately open borders...
    Once Delta is well seeded (as it is right now), I doubt open borders makes much difference.

    It is worth remembering three other things:

    1. Europe is very lucky that their school holidays have pretty much all started now. That means that the biggest vector for the transmission of Delta (children at school) has now been closed.

    2. They aren't so far behind us on vaccinations now. Spain now has 65% of adults with at least one dose, and 44% fully vaccinated. That's where the UK was five weeks ago, and the the EU is putting 27-28m doses in arms every week.

    3. There's less of a "zero Covid" thing in the EU. Most countries are happy with higher background levels of infections and deaths than we are, and that's probably the right call.
    1 - Fair point.

    2 - Yes - 5 weeks or so is reasonable if Spain maintain their current 1% per day jab rate, and they don't slow down or hit a ceiling.

    3 - Perhaps.
    Re 2, I'm sure they will all hit ceilings or at least slow down. The UK probably has one of the highest levels of vaccine acceptance in the world.

    That being said it's worth noting that most of the major EU countries are now level with the US for proportion of adults with at least one jab:
    Belgium             78%
    Finland 73%
    Netherlands 73%
    USA 67%
    Italy 67%
    Spain 65%
    France 64%
    Germany 64%
    Now, while they're behind for full vaccinations, this is a pretty solid indicator that vaccine hesitancy there is going to be no worse (and probably better) than in the US.

    Plus, ultimately, once a vaccine has been offered to all adults, then those that end up with Covid... well, that's really their problem.
    Only fair to put this UK and Israel on this chart too, to demonstrate where we are:
    UK                  87%
    Israel 81%
    Belgium 78%
    Finland 73%
    Netherlands 73%
    USA 67%
    Italy 67%
    Spain 65%
    France 64%
    Germany 64%
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Fantastic from Madeley, absolutely brilliant. He gets a lot of stick, but this was great. And he looks great for his age too

    He nails her brilliantly. I think she is actually evil

    I have met Madeley, He is super intelligent, hence his success. The affable, bumbling TV persona is an act. He’s immensely sharp
    As you say she cannot, or wont, answer the question. Because in her heart she knows this is a way of getting closer to her utopia, and the end justifies the means.

    Madeley gets a lot of undue stick, but he doesn’t toe the line. 65 this year, incredible. And a Romford boy too, we might have been born in the same hospital!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Actually Madeley is/was a serious journalist. He became associated with daytime fluff presumably because the money was far better than pounding the news trail. But he was a proper news reporter in his younger days.
    Yes, see my other comment. I’ve met him and we have mutual friends. He’s seriously clever. He persuaded a very doubtful friend of mine that Brexit would win, et voila
    Is he likely to get the gig on GMB full time, do you think?
    They’d be very wise to choose him. He’s a free thinker and properly combative without being a twat like Morgan. He’s also a total pro on live TV. Might be more of a question: does he want the full time job

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Actually Madeley is/was a serious journalist. He became associated with daytime fluff presumably because the money was far better than pounding the news trail. But he was a proper news reporter in his younger days.
    Yes, see my other comment. I’ve met him and we have mutual friends. He’s seriously clever. He persuaded a very doubtful friend of mine that Brexit would win, et voila
    Is he likely to get the gig on GMB full time, do you think?
    They’d be very wise to choose him. He’s a free thinker and properly combative without being a twat like Morgan. He’s also a total pro on live TV. Might be more of a question: does he want the full time job

    He’s said he does
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/14976331/phone-rung-ready-new-piers-morgan-richard-madeley/?rec_article=true
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, Iceland is now at 88% of adults with at least one vaccine dose, and that increased by no less than 5% last week, so they may manage the record for least vaccine hesitancy.

    Yeah it's probably easier to do in tiny states.
    I think they have a fairly high level of trust in Iceland, which plays a role. (They also played a blinder, IIRC, by both buying direct and getting some EU vaccines.)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    The Deputy Editor of the Daily Express is remarkably measured, sensible, nuanced and good humoured on the BBC paper review.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,655
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Tory scientists.

    Small state view has influence on their science.

    Same difference.

    Madeley is Partridge.
    Fuck off old boy

    She’s not even a proper scientist. She’s not a biologist or a virologist or an epidemiologist. She’s a ‘behavioural psychologist’ and a hardcore communist

    That’s not the same as being “a small state Tory” that’s more like being an Islamofascist or a BNP member with hints of Nazism. She eagerly supports a creed which has slaughtered millions and which, in China, is committing genocide today

    Fuck her. Throw her off the committee. More pointedly, watch the clip. She cannot answer the question
    Which questions can Boris Johnson answer?

    Throw him out of PMQ's.

    Marxist England team doing rather well in the Euros BTW Sean
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    dixiedean said:

    The Deputy Editor of the Daily Express is remarkably measured, sensible, nuanced and good humoured on the BBC paper review.

    He won't be asked back then....
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    What can I say, she went to Oxford...time to shut the place down.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    Do you object to the Communist influence in the Johnson administration?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    What can I say, she went to Oxford...time to shut the place down.
    On the other hand there is the possibility that her presence onSAGE is actually far more sinister and she is there BECAUSE she is a communist and has studied the methods used to keep a population compliant and unquestionably accepting of Govt authority. Because you can imagine a Govt contemplating the sorts of things put in place over the last 15 months would find such “expertise” extremely valuable..
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,192
    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    It's actually funnier than that. Communism is scientifically proven not to work - and not just by practical demonstration.

    Humans are non-linear in behaviour. Basic chaos theory shows that trying to completely predict/control non-linear systems is doomed - see the butterfly effect. Therefore Communist style central control of society can't work.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    Michie actually said in an interview in her opinion the only way to be able to overcome this pandemic and future pandemics was a total reordering of the whole of the way society works.....

    That's quite different from saying that we know that Ferguson isn't exactly a big fan of Brexit or the Tories, but never talks about anything beyond is modelling work in interviews, let alone start espousing how we need a new world order to combat this virus.

    I just find it absolutely astonishing that anyone could credibly claim to be an expert in behavioural psychology, whilst at the same time being a committed communist. When it is almost universally accepted that one of the fundamental flaws in communism, even if its aims/ideals are interpreted positively/charitably, is that it fails because it is at odds with the human condition.

    Whilst clearly this pandemic has caused many to reassess with some alarm, quite how many people actually seem to seek comfort in being told what to do by the state, if anything that only makes the case stronger because it demonstrates how many will react when faced with an apparent existential threat to their existence. The (usually) creation of existential threats, and causing people to live in fear, being a key part of how communist regimes seek to take power and retain it.
    It's actually funnier than that. Communism is scientifically proven not to work - and not just by practical demonstration.

    Humans are non-linear in behaviour. Basic chaos theory shows that trying to completely predict/control non-linear systems is doomed - see the butterfly effect. Therefore Communist style central control of society can't work.
    But perhaps can in the short term... see my other post...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    edited July 2021
    I don’t want to harp on, but Clarkson’s Farm has quite extraordinary ratings

    2300 Google reviews. Average: 5/5

    9.3 on IMDB

    100% on Rotten Tomatoes

    4.9/5 on amazon, after almost 4000 reviews

    He’s a comic genius, and in this show he injects some pathos as well

    The Guardian gave it 1 star. Lol
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    I don’t want to harp on, but Clarkson’s Farm has quite extraordinary ratings

    2300 Google reviews. Average: 5/5

    9.3 on IMDB

    100% on Rotten Tomatoes

    He’s a comic genius, and in this show he injects some pathos as well

    The Guardian gave it 1 star. Lol

    Season Two already in the works....

    ---

    Classic quotes from the Gruardian....

    "There is more wearisome, meretricious rubbish in this episode – and then in the others – that there is no point detailing here."

    "For every Clarkson sucking up money, resources, time and publicity, there are other, newer, brighter, more entertaining, more valuable things not getting made."

    ---

    While Amazon sit back and look at the rating and know they have the biggest show of the year.
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    Leon said:

    I don’t want to harp on, but Clarkson’s Farm has quite extraordinary ratings

    2300 Google reviews. Average: 5/5

    9.3 on IMDB

    100% on Rotten Tomatoes

    He’s a comic genius, and in this show he injects some pathos as well

    The Guardian gave it 1 star. Lol

    Bloody Remoaners.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    Gnud said:

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    If she's talking shit, it should be possible to debunk it by looking at her premises and logic. It's not as if she's a loony who says things like "the heart is not a pump". She didn't appoint herself to SAGE.

    An upsurge seems to be ongoing in the rightwing fear of "communism".

    Would you say the same about a leftwing fear of fascism?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Leon said:

    I don’t want to harp on, but Clarkson’s Farm has quite extraordinary ratings

    2300 Google reviews. Average: 5/5

    9.3 on IMDB

    100% on Rotten Tomatoes

    He’s a comic genius, and in this show he injects some pathos as well

    The Guardian gave it 1 star. Lol

    Season Two already in the works....
    A lot of people really don’t understand Jeremy Clarkson. He’s got far more depth than most of his knee jerk critics give him credit for. I also never get the impression that he takes himself too seriously, which is always a sign that he’s putting on something of an act.
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    rcs1000 said:

    Plus, ultimately, once a vaccine has been offered to all adults, then those that end up with Covid... well, that's really their problem.

    What does that mean? Deny them access to intensive care?

    Should the same logic be applied to smokers who get lung cancer, or to fatarses who stuff their mouths with too much pasta and cake and get heart disease?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    Leon said:

    It took Richard Madeley, FFS, to finally ask that communist hag on SAGE what a communist hag was doing on SAGE, trying to control all our lives

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1412000436551311360?s=21

    Tory scientists.

    Small state view has influence on their science.

    Same difference.

    Madeley is Partridge.
    Anyone could be asked whether their personal politics might affect their views. If it is an unreasonable question the correct response is to say "That is a silly question, politics plays no part in my consideration of scientific evidence'.

    The incorrect response is to whinge about being asked the question in a manner which suggests how dare someone ask you something you don't like, without addressing it with a very simple 'no'.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,124
    Just back from a top top day at Wimbledon. So nice to see people's faces and act normally.

    Beyond thrilled that the Govt. have realised they can't wibble any more. Shame it wasn't a few weeks ago!
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Gnud said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Plus, ultimately, once a vaccine has been offered to all adults, then those that end up with Covid... well, that's really their problem.

    What does that mean? Deny them access to intensive care?

    Should the same logic be applied to smokers who get lung cancer, or to fatarses who stuff their mouths with too much pasta and cake and get heart disease?
    No it means that society shouldn’t be reordered to protect them.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522

    This is why I'm never going to the toilet again.

    A 65-year-old man was left with minor injuries after a reticulated python bit him while he was sitting on the toilet.

    He was said to have felt a "pinch in the area of his genitals" before noticing a five foot (1.6 metres) snake beneath him in the toilet bowl at his home in the Austrian city of Graz.

    The python, a constrictor native to Asia which can grow to a length of nearly 30ft (nine metres), is thought to have found its way into the toilet via the network of drains....

    ...A 24-year-old neighbour, who owns 11 snakes, has been reported to the prosecutors' office on suspicion of negligently causing bodily harm, the police added.


    https://news.sky.com/story/nasty-surprise-as-man-bitten-by-python-while-sat-on-the-toilet-12349246

    Can we put snake owners in the same category as terrorists?

    Extraordinary rendition for snake owners would be a vote winner.

    My mother once visited friends and excused herself to use their loo. After a little while, their pet python (of which she had not been told) reared its head in the bath and eyed her pensively. She shrieked, pulled up her clothes and rushed into the living room.

    Mum: "There's a snake in your bath!!!"
    Friend: "Ah, yes, that's Anthony, didn't we mention him? I do hope you haven't upset him."
This discussion has been closed.