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SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2021 in General
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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    On the latest Tim Spector update from ZOE data, he had a nice chart that showed the rising cases, and then split for unvaccinated, 1st dose, 2nd dose. Obviously big rise in unvaccinated, a decent rise among those with only one dose, but very little rise among those who had 2nd dose.

    And that should still be set against the fact that there are people in the "2nd dose" category are included because they tested positive 10 days after 2nd dose, but that means there are some in those low numbers who will have caught it in the 10 day window when the 2nd dose hasn't kicked in.

    From that data it shows the level of protection is very good after two doses and that is before you even get to thinking about yes you got it, but are the symptoms less severe. Again, Tim Spector says yes, different and milder symptoms being reported even against one dose. One dose again Indian variant much closer range of symptoms to the unvaccinated.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    My biggest concern with the vaccination programme, is the lack of clear information about the time lag between your jabs and protection.

    I was given loads of verbal information about possible side effects, what to do after my jab in regards lots of water, take it easy, etc. But not once was 3wk / 2wk periods mentioned, nor was there any posters in the waiting area. Posters for things like domestic abuse, but not a sausage about the fact you aren't protected for quite a while afterward.

    I think this is a big misstep, especially as things has been relaxed.
  • pingping Posts: 3,724
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Lol

    I was about to post that.

    Also the autism one is slightly scary.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    I presume if you have to travel to it / take time off work / get childcare?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Wasn't RochdalePioneers talking about that effect recently in relation to regeneration spending?

    People will be thinking of their tax money being spent on it when they think of it being too expensive, not that they'll be charged directly by the NHS.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    On the latest Tim Spector update from ZOE data, he had a nice chart that showed the rising cases, and then split for unvaccinated, 1st dose, 2nd dose. Obviously big rise in unvaccinated, a decent rise among those with only one dose, but very little rise among those who had 2nd dose.

    And that should still be set against the fact that there are people in the "2nd dose" category are included because they tested positive 10 days after 2nd dose, but that means there are some in those low numbers who will have caught it in the 10 day window when the 2nd dose hasn't kicked in.

    From that data it shows the level of protection is very good after two doses and that is before you even get to thinking about yes you got it, but are the symptoms less severe. Again, Tim Spector says yes, different and milder symptoms being reported even against one dose. One dose again Indian variant much closer range of symptoms to the unvaccinated.

    That does sound good/interesting, what does ZOE stand for? and do you have a link please?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Wasn't RochdalePioneers talking about that effect recently in relation to regeneration spending?

    People will be thinking of their tax money being spent on it when they think of it being too expensive, not that they'll be charged directly by the NHS.
    It's a sunk cost.

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    I presume if you have to travel to it / take time off work / get childcare?
    Walk in centres allow for vaccination any time now including weekends.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,944
    Catchy thread title.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    BigRich said:

    On the latest Tim Spector update from ZOE data, he had a nice chart that showed the rising cases, and then split for unvaccinated, 1st dose, 2nd dose. Obviously big rise in unvaccinated, a decent rise among those with only one dose, but very little rise among those who had 2nd dose.

    And that should still be set against the fact that there are people in the "2nd dose" category are included because they tested positive 10 days after 2nd dose, but that means there are some in those low numbers who will have caught it in the 10 day window when the 2nd dose hasn't kicked in.

    From that data it shows the level of protection is very good after two doses and that is before you even get to thinking about yes you got it, but are the symptoms less severe. Again, Tim Spector says yes, different and milder symptoms being reported even against one dose. One dose again Indian variant much closer range of symptoms to the unvaccinated.

    That does sound good/interesting, what does ZOE stand for? and do you have a link please?
    ZOE is the name of the company who developed it. I don't know what it stands for.

    Here is the latest video on the channel that talks about infection rates / symptoms.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoSuW2fkavM
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    Pulpstar said:


    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Wasn't RochdalePioneers talking about that effect recently in relation to regeneration spending?

    People will be thinking of their tax money being spent on it when they think of it being too expensive, not that they'll be charged directly by the NHS.
    It's a sunk cost.

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    I presume if you have to travel to it / take time off work / get childcare?
    Walk in centres allow for vaccination any time now including weekends.
    I know, but this polling people's perception, not reality. Not everybody is 110% engaged like we are, they just hear well I have to book and my mate said the centre they went to was 30 mins away and all they could get was a Tuesday morning.

    My original 2nd dose appointment was 2hrs drive away, because I was given the option of one that was 90 mins away at an inconvenient time and the next appointment was 2hrs away. If I told somebody who has kids and doesn't work from home that, they might think shit that sounds expensive.

    Now, I managed to rebook, but again, because I am far too engaged on this topic and knew I would do so.
  • pingping Posts: 3,724
    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Lol

    I was about to post that.

    Also the autism one is slightly scary.

    Perhaps 40% of respondents are giving random, garbage answers?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    James Forsyth
    @JGForsyth
    ·
    3h
    The July 7th election for the chair of the 1922 Committee will give us a sense of the mood of the Tory backbenches. Will they go for former minister and loyalist Heather Wheeler or the more independent minded incumbent, Graham Brady?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2021
    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Lol

    I was about to post that.

    Also the autism one is slightly scary.

    19% think vaccines cause autism is horrific.

    But then we've already vaccinated 82.5% of the adult population, so we're now down to vaccinating people who think things like that, apparently.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    edited June 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    And that figure has only dropped 3% since November although millions of people are wandering around who have got it from the NHS for free. Bizarre. Maybe this question just shows there are 20% of people who pay absolutely no attention to anything whatsoever and live in some kind of bubble?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    And that figure has only dropped 3% since November although millions of people are wandering around who have got it from the NHS for free. Bizarre. Maybe this question just shows there are 20% of people who pay absolutely no attention to anything whatsoever and live in some kind of bubble?
    Well a load of people are going to vote for George Galloway......
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:


    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Wasn't RochdalePioneers talking about that effect recently in relation to regeneration spending?

    People will be thinking of their tax money being spent on it when they think of it being too expensive, not that they'll be charged directly by the NHS.
    It's a sunk cost.

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    I presume if you have to travel to it / take time off work / get childcare?
    Walk in centres allow for vaccination any time now including weekends.
    I know, but this polling people's perception, not reality. Not everybody is 110% engaged like we are, they just hear well I have to book and my mate said the centre they went to was 30 mins away and all they could get was a Tuesday morning.

    My original 2nd dose appointment was 2hrs drive away, because I was given the option of one that was 90 mins away at an inconvenient time and the next appointment was 2hrs away. If I told somebody who has kids and doesn't work from home that, they might think shit that sounds expensive.
    Hah. I reckon it's most likely to be people who don't like/fancy getting vaccinated just ticking another box against vaccines genewrally rather than thinking about the argument ;)
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    From last thread on Galloway: Just in case any Galloway apologists have forgotten: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtK-tVhCvjY
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    If Galloway beats Keith (Which I think is well possible) is he done for ?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    Pulpstar said:


    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Wasn't RochdalePioneers talking about that effect recently in relation to regeneration spending?

    People will be thinking of their tax money being spent on it when they think of it being too expensive, not that they'll be charged directly by the NHS.
    It's a sunk cost.

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    I presume if you have to travel to it / take time off work / get childcare?
    Walk in centres allow for vaccination any time now including weekends.
    I know, but this polling people's perception, not reality. Not everybody is 110% engaged like we are, they just hear well I have to book and my mate said the centre they went to was 30 mins away and all they could get was a Tuesday morning.

    My original 2nd dose appointment was 2hrs drive away, because I was given the option of one that was 90 mins away at an inconvenient time and the next appointment was 2hrs away. If I told somebody who has kids and doesn't work from home that, they might think shit that sounds expensive.

    Now, I managed to rebook, but again, because I am far too engaged on this topic and knew I would do so.
    And "walk in" is all very well if you are in a town or city.
    It isn't if you are rural without transport either private or public.
    I am still 12 miles from a vaccination centre. Let alone one that doesn't need a booking.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited June 2021
    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Lol

    I was about to post that.

    Also the autism one is slightly scary.

    The way the modern world works is somewhat beyond the understanding of quite a large part of the population, so they can be persuaded to believe all sorts of nonsense, and they don't have the mental tools necessary to reason about these issues.

    There is scarcely any difference between the way anti-vaxxers look at the world and the way people in the past were taken in by things like spiritualism. Their argumenst are always unscientific, anecdotal evidence abounds, they distrust authority, they jump to conclusions, they ignoring conflicting evidence, and they abuse those who try to reason with them.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    And that figure has only dropped 3% since November although millions of people are wandering around who have got it from the NHS for free. Bizarre. Maybe this question just shows there are 20% of people who pay absolutely no attention to anything whatsoever and live in some kind of bubble?
    Well a load of people are going to vote for George Galloway......
    lots of people voted for Brexit...only kidding folks! 🤔🤔😄 😄
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Viewer discretion advised - video of collapse of Miami apartment:

    https://twitter.com/FrancesWangTV/status/1408056730718773249?s=20
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    glw said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Lol

    I was about to post that.

    Also the autism one is slightly scary.

    The way the modern world works is somewhat beyond the understanding of quite a large part of the population, so they can be persuaded to believe all sorts of nonsense, and they don't have the mental tools necessary to reason about these issues.

    There is scarcely any difference between the way anti-vaxxers look at the world and the way people in the past were taken in by things like spiritualism. Their argumenst are always unscientific, anecdotal evidence abounds, they distrust authority, they jump to conclusions, they ignoring conflicting evidence, and they abuse those who try to reason with them.
    Unfortunately the internet amplifies this. In the past the only way people like this could be manipulated was through the tabloid press. Now they can be accessed daily via FB and Insta
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,493
    Jesus, I fell down the New Thread hole again...

    FPT: FrancisUrquhart said:
    Compare with BBC / ITV "analysis"...its like watching standard def vs UHD TV.

    Where is Jadon Sancho? from Tifo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1RUIxgOpE

    Just a different level of analysis and insight.


    I'm watching a lot more YouTube since lockdown began. You can just nerd out on any subject you want, it's amazing. To be fair to the BBC, ITN, etc, they just don't have the time to go into this level of detail, and it is detail that would probably see a lot of people switching off pretty quickly.

    But we are very fortunate to have YouTube.

    And may I also give an honourable mention to these guys, going from strength to strength: https://www.historyhit.com/
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    BigRich said:

    On the latest Tim Spector update from ZOE data, he had a nice chart that showed the rising cases, and then split for unvaccinated, 1st dose, 2nd dose. Obviously big rise in unvaccinated, a decent rise among those with only one dose, but very little rise among those who had 2nd dose.

    And that should still be set against the fact that there are people in the "2nd dose" category are included because they tested positive 10 days after 2nd dose, but that means there are some in those low numbers who will have caught it in the 10 day window when the 2nd dose hasn't kicked in.

    From that data it shows the level of protection is very good after two doses and that is before you even get to thinking about yes you got it, but are the symptoms less severe. Again, Tim Spector says yes, different and milder symptoms being reported even against one dose. One dose again Indian variant much closer range of symptoms to the unvaccinated.

    That does sound good/interesting, what does ZOE stand for? and do you have a link please?
    ZOE is the name of the company who developed it. I don't know what it stands for.

    Here is the latest video on the channel that talks about infection rates / symptoms.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoSuW2fkavM
    Thanks, just watched now, very interesting.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    FPT:

    On yesterday's boating incident:

    Those goals are: Inflate perceptions of Russian dominance in the Black Sea, inflate perceptions in NATO nations that the cost to operate in totally normal ways in the Black Sea is too high/dangerous, inflate perceptions in Ukraine & Georgia that NATO ain’t coming to save you. /6....

    In reality, a NATO ally did something very bold today — and Russia couldn’t stop it. NATO (or at least, the UK) stood up for Ukraine, and it stood up to Russia. It did it without firing shots. The significance of this is important. /7


    https://twitter.com/MollyMcKew/status/1407833322970042372?s=20

    I love your reference to it as a "boating incident". Very British. Makes it sound like something happened on a summer's day on the Serpentine!
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Pulpstar said:

    If Galloway beats Keith (Which I think is well possible) is he done for ?

    100% will be a leadership challenge. Labour tearing chunks out of each other will be another reminder why they shouldn't be in power. Burnham might flirt with having a go saying he has to think about the Nation as a whole before he runs away from his Manchester Mayoral job. Angela Rayner might well throw her hat in the ring too, she has no reason for loyalty to Sir Keith.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Jesus, I fell down the New Thread hole again...

    FPT: FrancisUrquhart said:
    Compare with BBC / ITV "analysis"...its like watching standard def vs UHD TV.

    Where is Jadon Sancho? from Tifo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1RUIxgOpE

    Just a different level of analysis and insight.


    I'm watching a lot more YouTube since lockdown began. You can just nerd out on any subject you want, it's amazing. To be fair to the BBC, ITN, etc, they just don't have the time to go into this level of detail, and it is detail that would probably see a lot of people switching off pretty quickly.

    But we are very fortunate to have YouTube.

    And may I also give an honourable mention to these guys, going from strength to strength: https://www.historyhit.com/

    I am not suggesting a 20 min take, but in that Tifo video on Sancho, they explain the England base tactics in less than 3 mins. All we get from BBC / ITV, is pretty much he did a header, he did a shot.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405

    James Forsyth
    @JGForsyth
    ·
    3h
    The July 7th election for the chair of the 1922 Committee will give us a sense of the mood of the Tory backbenches. Will they go for former minister and loyalist Heather Wheeler or the more independent minded incumbent, Graham Brady?

    Voting for a management lickspittle to be the Shop Steward? They'd be daft to do that.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    Unfortunately the internet amplifies this. In the past the only way people like this could be manipulated was through the tabloid press. Now they can be accessed daily via FB and Insta

    I've said many times before that social media and democracy may prove to be incompatible.

    You only have to look at the story just mentioned by CarlottaVance, the Russians got their side of the story on the news very quickly, but was it true? And it it was false how many people will read the stories that correctly report what happened?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    From last thread on Galloway: Just in case any Galloway apologists have forgotten: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtK-tVhCvjY

    If there are apologists on here I've missed them. However, I think he could provide a useful service next week. If his intervention causes Labour to lose it will underline the weakness of relying on factionalism. In fact the party has been very quiet amidst the smears last week against Starmer's wife and the party's perceived support for Israel/Jews post Corbyn. The silence itself speaks deafeningly of their weakness and fear of offending some of their Muslim base. So Galloway himself is just a whole piece of crap who should never be a threat to a mainstream centre left party that is operating properly. It isn't and therefore he is!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Jesus, I fell down the New Thread hole again...

    FPT: FrancisUrquhart said:
    Compare with BBC / ITV "analysis"...its like watching standard def vs UHD TV.

    Where is Jadon Sancho? from Tifo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1RUIxgOpE

    Just a different level of analysis and insight.


    I'm watching a lot more YouTube since lockdown began. You can just nerd out on any subject you want, it's amazing. To be fair to the BBC, ITN, etc, they just don't have the time to go into this level of detail, and it is detail that would probably see a lot of people switching off pretty quickly.

    But we are very fortunate to have YouTube.

    And may I also give an honourable mention to these guys, going from strength to strength: https://www.historyhit.com/

    I did that a few days ago. It seemed strange when I realised that the last 3 posts were from me. I guess it could have been worse if I had started arguing with myself 😄 😄
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Pulpstar said:

    If Galloway beats Keith (Which I think is well possible) is he done for ?

    Keith, who? Am I missing something, I don't think any of the candidates are called Keith?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Lol

    I was about to post that.

    Also the autism one is slightly scary.

    19% think vaccines cause autism is horrific.

    But then we've already vaccinated 82.5% of the adult population, so we're now down to vaccinating people who think things like that, apparently.
    I guess we can go no further once we reach the section of the population that thinks vaccines cause vampirism.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Brom said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If Galloway beats Keith (Which I think is well possible) is he done for ?

    100% will be a leadership challenge. Labour tearing chunks out of each other will be another reminder why they shouldn't be in power. Burnham might flirt with having a go saying he has to think about the Nation as a whole before he runs away from his Manchester Mayoral job. Angela Rayner might well throw her hat in the ring too, she has no reason for loyalty to Sir Keith.
    I have no particular desire to see a Labour government, but Tories should stop gloating and being so complacent. They have a clown for a leader, and they just lost one of their safest seats to the Libs. Sir "Keith" as you strangely like to refer to him as, may well show resilience and have the last laugh. Stranger things have happened. A week is a long time...etc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Build a wall and make them pay for it....
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If Galloway beats Keith (Which I think is well possible) is he done for ?

    100% will be a leadership challenge. Labour tearing chunks out of each other will be another reminder why they shouldn't be in power. Burnham might flirt with having a go saying he has to think about the Nation as a whole before he runs away from his Manchester Mayoral job. Angela Rayner might well throw her hat in the ring too, she has no reason for loyalty to Sir Keith.
    I have no particular desire to see a Labour government, but Tories should stop gloating and being so complacent. They have a clown for a leader, and they just lost one of their safest seats to the Libs. Sir "Keith" as you strangely like to refer to him as, may well show resilience and have the last laugh. Stranger things have happened. A week is a long time...etc.
    I'd like to see a decent electable opposition but we are where we are. I'm sure we can all find plenty of gloating posts from you 12 months ago about how the very 'forensic' Sir Keith would make mincemeat out of the PM. I'm still waiting for that to materialise.

    Chesham & Amersham is a wake up call for Boris but if he wins Batley & Spen to go with Hartlepool it's an incredible return for any PM 2 years in and any party 11 years in - of that there is little doubt. But Batley is very much still up for grabs IMO.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    I presume it's still all Andy Burnham's fault....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited June 2021
    Latest @PHE_uk info on antibody seropositivity:

    70-84s: 98.8% (was 98.3%)
    60-69s: 98.6% (was 98.4%)
    50-59: 98.5% (was 98.3%)
    40-49: 93.3% (was 90.0%)
    30-39: 68.0% (was 57.5%)

    These results are taken from healthy blood donors.


    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1408072068638334983?s=20
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    I've got a holiday in the Orkney islands planed, for 4 July will I still be able to go? or will they start to lockdown again?

    P.S. any top tips for things to see in the Orkney islands?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Build a wall and make them pay for it....
    Already there!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    felix said:

    From last thread on Galloway: Just in case any Galloway apologists have forgotten: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtK-tVhCvjY

    If there are apologists on here I've missed them. However, I think he could provide a useful service next week. If his intervention causes Labour to lose it will underline the weakness of relying on factionalism. In fact the party has been very quiet amidst the smears last week against Starmer's wife and the party's perceived support for Israel/Jews post Corbyn. The silence itself speaks deafeningly of their weakness and fear of offending some of their Muslim base. So Galloway himself is just a whole piece of crap who should never be a threat to a mainstream centre left party that is operating properly. It isn't and therefore he is!
    Galloway (&Corbyn) is the left cheek to the extremist arse that has Farage on the right. Farage has done lasting damage to the Tory Party from the outside, as Corbyn has to Labour from within it. In an age when we believe we have greater levels of tolerance in may areas, we have *almost* overtly racist politicians who seek to create division with the support of social media manipulation that focusses its firepower on the weak, prejudiced and gullible to do their bidding.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,709

    Jesus, I fell down the New Thread hole again...

    FPT: FrancisUrquhart said:
    Compare with BBC / ITV "analysis"...its like watching standard def vs UHD TV.

    Where is Jadon Sancho? from Tifo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1RUIxgOpE

    Just a different level of analysis and insight.


    I'm watching a lot more YouTube since lockdown began. You can just nerd out on any subject you want, it's amazing. To be fair to the BBC, ITN, etc, they just don't have the time to go into this level of detail, and it is detail that would probably see a lot of people switching off pretty quickly.

    But we are very fortunate to have YouTube.

    And may I also give an honourable mention to these guys, going from strength to strength: https://www.historyhit.com/

    Yes, YouTube has been good company during the pandemic.
    First it was "reaction" videos.
    I now watch a lot of Tom Scott's videos.
    Lately I have been watching videos of chiropractors loudly cracking people's backs, which are oddly satisfying.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    Jesus, I fell down the New Thread hole again...

    FPT: FrancisUrquhart said:
    Compare with BBC / ITV "analysis"...its like watching standard def vs UHD TV.

    Where is Jadon Sancho? from Tifo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1RUIxgOpE

    Just a different level of analysis and insight.


    I'm watching a lot more YouTube since lockdown began. You can just nerd out on any subject you want, it's amazing. To be fair to the BBC, ITN, etc, they just don't have the time to go into this level of detail, and it is detail that would probably see a lot of people switching off pretty quickly.

    But we are very fortunate to have YouTube.

    And may I also give an honourable mention to these guys, going from strength to strength: https://www.historyhit.com/

    Yes, YouTube has been good company during the pandemic.
    First it was "reaction" videos.
    I now watch a lot of Tom Scott's videos.
    Lately I have been watching videos of chiropractors loudly cracking people's backs, which are oddly satisfying.
    If you think back cracking videos are weird, apparently a big hit during the pandemic is ASMR videos....basically people whispering into a mic about doing everyday tasks. Very Weird.....
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    Latest @PHE_uk info on antibody seropositivity:

    70-84s: 98.8% (was 98.3%)
    60-69s: 98.6% (was 98.4%)
    50-59: 98.5% (was 98.3%)
    40-49: 93.3% (was 90.0%)
    30-39: 68.0% (was 57.5%)

    These results are taken from healthy blood donors.


    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1408072068638334983?s=20

    Still going up even in the oldest age groups, that good, don't know why they don't have under 30s.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If Galloway beats Keith (Which I think is well possible) is he done for ?

    100% will be a leadership challenge. Labour tearing chunks out of each other will be another reminder why they shouldn't be in power. Burnham might flirt with having a go saying he has to think about the Nation as a whole before he runs away from his Manchester Mayoral job. Angela Rayner might well throw her hat in the ring too, she has no reason for loyalty to Sir Keith.
    I have no particular desire to see a Labour government, but Tories should stop gloating and being so complacent. They have a clown for a leader, and they just lost one of their safest seats to the Libs. Sir "Keith" as you strangely like to refer to him as, may well show resilience and have the last laugh. Stranger things have happened. A week is a long time...etc.
    I'd like to see a decent electable opposition but we are where we are. I'm sure we can all find plenty of gloating posts from you 12 months ago about how the very 'forensic' Sir Keith would make mincemeat out of the PM. I'm still waiting for that to materialise.

    Chesham & Amersham is a wake up call for Boris but if he wins Batley & Spen to go with Hartlepool it's an incredible return for any PM 2 years in and any party 11 years in - of that there is little doubt. But Batley is very much still up for grabs IMO.
    No gloating posts from me I am afraid. I am a trad right of centre Tory, which is why I dislike Johnson so much. However, I think Starmer has made mincemeat out of Johnson at PMQs, but then so would a person from a sixth form debating team (probably the reserve team) . Johnson is shit, except, it would seem, at convincing the more gullible that he is a leader. That last bit he appears good at, along with bedding gullible women. Maybe there is a similarity.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    I think a proportion of people (wrongly) interpreted what they were being asked as "if true, would these be convincing arguments". Hence the results for "too expensive" and "autism" - those would be (respectively) plausible and strong arguments, if true.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    James Forsyth
    @JGForsyth
    ·
    3h
    The July 7th election for the chair of the 1922 Committee will give us a sense of the mood of the Tory backbenches. Will they go for former minister and loyalist Heather Wheeler or the more independent minded incumbent, Graham Brady?

    I still refuse to believe Heather Wheeler exists, let alone is a former minister.

    Utterly invisible.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Pulpstar said:

    Latest @PHE_uk info on antibody seropositivity:

    70-84s: 98.8% (was 98.3%)
    60-69s: 98.6% (was 98.4%)
    50-59: 98.5% (was 98.3%)
    40-49: 93.3% (was 90.0%)
    30-39: 68.0% (was 57.5%)

    These results are taken from healthy blood donors.


    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1408072068638334983?s=20

    One caveat, I'd have thought blood donors to be more likely to get vaccinated than the general population.
    Good point - there can't be that many 70-84 year olds (or 60-69s) who aren't on some form of medication....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9721397/Covid-scare-Englands-Euro-2020-base-Sky-Sports-reporter-tests-positive.html

    Again, not learning from the cricket....where the media couldn't come and go, they lived in the same biosecure bubble.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Endillion said:

    I think a proportion of people (wrongly) interpreted what they were being asked as "if true, would these be convincing arguments". Hence the results for "too expensive" and "autism" - those would be (respectively) plausible and strong arguments, if true.

    Think you might have something there!
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9721397/Covid-scare-Englands-Euro-2020-base-Sky-Sports-reporter-tests-positive.html

    Again, not learning from the cricket....where the media couldn't come and go, they lived in the same biosecure bubble.

    I may be wrong but I thought the media had their own separate bubble, with different floors, corridors, stairwells etc. So even when they were using the same buildings the media were separated as much as possible from the cricketers.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    What’s happened at the BBC and the Met police shows the perils of groupthink

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/24/bbc-met-police-perils-groupthink
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    glw said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9721397/Covid-scare-Englands-Euro-2020-base-Sky-Sports-reporter-tests-positive.html

    Again, not learning from the cricket....where the media couldn't come and go, they lived in the same biosecure bubble.

    I may be wrong but I thought the media had their own separate bubble, with different floors, corridors, stairwells etc. So even when they were using the same buildings the media were separated as much as possible from the cricketers.
    I believe so, I don't believe they ever interacted with them face to face, even why they did the video link interviews.

    The cricket really showed how you can run these things, 2020 IPL was also zero covid. I believe 2021 IPL was still hardly effected, despite covid being absolutely everywhere in India at the time.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If Galloway beats Keith (Which I think is well possible) is he done for ?

    100% will be a leadership challenge. Labour tearing chunks out of each other will be another reminder why they shouldn't be in power. Burnham might flirt with having a go saying he has to think about the Nation as a whole before he runs away from his Manchester Mayoral job. Angela Rayner might well throw her hat in the ring too, she has no reason for loyalty to Sir Keith.
    I have no particular desire to see a Labour government, but Tories should stop gloating and being so complacent. They have a clown for a leader, and they just lost one of their safest seats to the Libs. Sir "Keith" as you strangely like to refer to him as, may well show resilience and have the last laugh. Stranger things have happened. A week is a long time...etc.
    I'd like to see a decent electable opposition but we are where we are. I'm sure we can all find plenty of gloating posts from you 12 months ago about how the very 'forensic' Sir Keith would make mincemeat out of the PM. I'm still waiting for that to materialise.

    Chesham & Amersham is a wake up call for Boris but if he wins Batley & Spen to go with Hartlepool it's an incredible return for any PM 2 years in and any party 11 years in - of that there is little doubt. But Batley is very much still up for grabs IMO.
    No gloating posts from me I am afraid. I am a trad right of centre Tory, which is why I dislike Johnson so much. However, I think Starmer has made mincemeat out of Johnson at PMQs, but then so would a person from a sixth form debating team (probably the reserve team) . Johnson is shit, except, it would seem, at convincing the more gullible that he is a leader. That last bit he appears good at, along with bedding gullible women. Maybe there is a similarity.
    Thank Goodness you're so wise! May you long maintain Johnson is shit and continue to get it wrong.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,155
    BigRich said:

    I've got a holiday in the Orkney islands planed, for 4 July will I still be able to go? or will they start to lockdown again?

    P.S. any top tips for things to see in the Orkney islands?
    Nava/mil history - Lyness base, maybe a boat tour with camera on a string for the sunken German fleet if that is up and running, some stuff in Stromness Museum. Also Churchill barriers.
    Mediaeval - Kirkwall cathedral, the two palaces, Stromness town
    Archaeological - wall to wall but specials include the Maes Howe/Borgar/Stenness complex in central Mainland. Have a look at the Historic Scotland website for some other ideas of sites. Tomn of the Eagles on South Ronaldsay is I think privately owned.
    Scenic - Yesnaby, Kitchener Monument, walk around coast from Stromness town round to Breckness, for instance
    Cultural - two farmhouse longhouse museums in Mainland when I last went

    The abvoe is the Mainland plus cuaseway connexted islands plus Hoy (ferry). Of the smaller nothern islands, I like Westray very much - castle, scenic Noss Head for birdies, general ambience, golf course (not exactly the R&A, no idea if still there - Papa Westray is the one with the v. ancient houses.

    Food etc - try bere bannocks, and the local whisky, Highland Park being one of my favourite breweries, Scapa is also worth a taste if available

    Tourist Info office on Kirkwall.Stromness definitely worth talkign to. When I was there there was a ghood bookshop[ in Stromness with lots of local stuff.

    May have to save it for another year, mind.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169
    I wish Labour would have a leadership election and tear chunks out of each other. It might look unedifying at the time, but it would:

    - shake them out of their current stupor
    - actually get them airtime
    - enable leadership hopefuls to test out some opposition attack lines and policies that might have a chance of capturing the electorate's imagination
    - with luck, act as a final unsuccessful stand by the far left before they finally head off back to the SWP
    - bring to the forefront someone with charisma and half a chance of actually beating the conservatives (though the only one I really rate, Jess Phillips, unfortunately doesn't stand a chance)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If Galloway beats Keith (Which I think is well possible) is he done for ?

    100% will be a leadership challenge. Labour tearing chunks out of each other will be another reminder why they shouldn't be in power. Burnham might flirt with having a go saying he has to think about the Nation as a whole before he runs away from his Manchester Mayoral job. Angela Rayner might well throw her hat in the ring too, she has no reason for loyalty to Sir Keith.
    I have no particular desire to see a Labour government, but Tories should stop gloating and being so complacent. They have a clown for a leader, and they just lost one of their safest seats to the Libs. Sir "Keith" as you strangely like to refer to him as, may well show resilience and have the last laugh. Stranger things have happened. A week is a long time...etc.
    I'd like to see a decent electable opposition but we are where we are. I'm sure we can all find plenty of gloating posts from you 12 months ago about how the very 'forensic' Sir Keith would make mincemeat out of the PM. I'm still waiting for that to materialise.

    Chesham & Amersham is a wake up call for Boris but if he wins Batley & Spen to go with Hartlepool it's an incredible return for any PM 2 years in and any party 11 years in - of that there is little doubt. But Batley is very much still up for grabs IMO.
    No gloating posts from me I am afraid. I am a trad right of centre Tory, which is why I dislike Johnson so much. However, I think Starmer has made mincemeat out of Johnson at PMQs, but then so would a person from a sixth form debating team (probably the reserve team) . Johnson is shit, except, it would seem, at convincing the more gullible that he is a leader. That last bit he appears good at, along with bedding gullible women. Maybe there is a similarity.
    I am sure the millions of 'gullible ' Conservative voters are aghast at losing your good opinion. I know I am absolutely bereft.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    glw said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9721397/Covid-scare-Englands-Euro-2020-base-Sky-Sports-reporter-tests-positive.html

    Again, not learning from the cricket....where the media couldn't come and go, they lived in the same biosecure bubble.

    I may be wrong but I thought the media had their own separate bubble, with different floors, corridors, stairwells etc. So even when they were using the same buildings the media were separated as much as possible from the cricketers.
    I believe so, I don't believe they ever interacted with them face to face, even why they did the video link interviews.

    The cricket really showed how you can run these things, 2020 IPL was also zero covid. I believe 2021 IPL was still hardly effected, despite covid being absolutely everywhere in India at the time.
    Yes out of all major sports cricket seems to have done the best job of limiting the impact of covid.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    What’s happened at the BBC and the Met police shows the perils of groupthink

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/24/bbc-met-police-perils-groupthink

    Thanks for sharing. Groupthink is a fascinating psychological phenomena from a team dynamic perspective. It is particularly dangerous when conformity of thinking is combined with weak leadership. It is particularly worrying for our political parties and system of government.

    The antidote to groupthink (paradoxically for wokists and , anti-woke warriors alike) is genuine diversity of thought and strong, good quality leadership that is able to recognise groupthink and challenge it. Our party system seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

    Don't hold your breath folks!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sean_F said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Lol

    I was about to post that.

    Also the autism one is slightly scary.

    19% think vaccines cause autism is horrific.

    But then we've already vaccinated 82.5% of the adult population, so we're now down to vaccinating people who think things like that, apparently.
    I guess we can go no further once we reach the section of the population that thinks vaccines cause vampirism.
    I don't know, remember how popular vampires were a few years ago?

    'Get your jab to join Team Edward'.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    What’s happened at the BBC and the Met police shows the perils of groupthink

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/24/bbc-met-police-perils-groupthink

    Thanks for sharing. Groupthink is a fascinating psychological phenomena from a team dynamic perspective. It is particularly dangerous when conformity of thinking is combined with weak leadership. It is particularly worrying for our political parties and system of government.

    The antidote to groupthink (paradoxically for wokists and , anti-woke warriors alike) is genuine diversity of thought and strong, good quality leadership that is able to recognise groupthink and challenge it. Our party system seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

    Don't hold your breath folks!
    I completely agree with you Nigel.

    Some people are just unwilling to countenance those who have sincerely held differing opinions to them.

    Its not healthy by any means. Only through intellectual challenge and free thought do bad ideas get identified and dismissed, otherwise they ossify into shibboleths.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Are we sure it's autism people are worried about:


  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    16,700 cases, 21 deaths, 204 admissions, 1,533 in hospital. Admissions are actually down week on week.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    glw said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know who the 20% claiming it is too expensive are when it is being given out for free.

    Lol

    I was about to post that.

    Also the autism one is slightly scary.

    The way the modern world works is somewhat beyond the understanding of quite a large part of the population, so they can be persuaded to believe all sorts of nonsense, and they don't have the mental tools necessary to reason about these issues.

    There is scarcely any difference between the way anti-vaxxers look at the world and the way people in the past were taken in by things like spiritualism. Their argumenst are always unscientific, anecdotal evidence abounds, they distrust authority, they jump to conclusions, they ignoring conflicting evidence, and they abuse those who try to reason with them.
    So true: you'd think someone who ... I don't know ... writes airport thrillers for example ... would be bright enough not to believe every crazy conspiracy theory that they hear.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    rcs1000 said:

    Are we sure it's autism people are worried about:


    I remember reading a tweet that purported to come from Marjorie Taylor Greene, and I'm not sure if it's authentic or not.

    "The Bible was written by the greatest American ever, Jesus",
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    What’s happened at the BBC and the Met police shows the perils of groupthink

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/24/bbc-met-police-perils-groupthink

    Thanks for sharing. Groupthink is a fascinating psychological phenomena from a team dynamic perspective. It is particularly dangerous when conformity of thinking is combined with weak leadership. It is particularly worrying for our political parties and system of government.

    The antidote to groupthink (paradoxically for wokists and , anti-woke warriors alike) is genuine diversity of thought and strong, good quality leadership that is able to recognise groupthink and challenge it. Our party system seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

    Don't hold your breath folks!
    I completely agree with you Nigel.

    Some people are just unwilling to countenance those who have sincerely held differing opinions to them.

    Its not healthy by any means. Only through intellectual challenge and free thought do bad ideas get identified and dismissed, otherwise they ossify into shibboleths.
    I listened to an interesting interview with Big Dom's favourite "rationalist" philosopher the other week. She made a really striking point. In her field, she stated the convention is that every argument somebody makes is treated as coming from a good place, with honest intensions and presumed to have merit and thus you should start your discussion / argument from that assumption. And that both parties are willing to discuss both sides openly, with the ultimate desire to find the best position.

    And the interviewer said, but what if somebody is a bad faith actor. And she sighed and said, well it falls down....and does that happen...sigh, when I started no, not much, now, yes....
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Carnyx said:

    BigRich said:

    I've got a holiday in the Orkney islands planed, for 4 July will I still be able to go? or will they start to lockdown again?

    P.S. any top tips for things to see in the Orkney islands?
    Nava/mil history - Lyness base, maybe a boat tour with camera on a string for the sunken German fleet if that is up and running, some stuff in Stromness Museum. Also Churchill barriers.
    Mediaeval - Kirkwall cathedral, the two palaces, Stromness town
    Archaeological - wall to wall but specials include the Maes Howe/Borgar/Stenness complex in central Mainland. Have a look at the Historic Scotland website for some other ideas of sites. Tomn of the Eagles on South Ronaldsay is I think privately owned.
    Scenic - Yesnaby, Kitchener Monument, walk around coast from Stromness town round to Breckness, for instance
    Cultural - two farmhouse longhouse museums in Mainland when I last went

    The abvoe is the Mainland plus cuaseway connexted islands plus Hoy (ferry). Of the smaller nothern islands, I like Westray very much - castle, scenic Noss Head for birdies, general ambience, golf course (not exactly the R&A, no idea if still there - Papa Westray is the one with the v. ancient houses.

    Food etc - try bere bannocks, and the local whisky, Highland Park being one of my favourite breweries, Scapa is also worth a taste if available

    Tourist Info office on Kirkwall.Stromness definitely worth talkign to. When I was there there was a ghood bookshop[ in Stromness with lots of local stuff.

    May have to save it for another year, mind.
    Thanks, If we are still allowed this will be an interesting visit :)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    What’s happened at the BBC and the Met police shows the perils of groupthink

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/24/bbc-met-police-perils-groupthink

    Thanks for sharing. Groupthink is a fascinating psychological phenomena from a team dynamic perspective. It is particularly dangerous when conformity of thinking is combined with weak leadership. It is particularly worrying for our political parties and system of government.

    The antidote to groupthink (paradoxically for wokists and , anti-woke warriors alike) is genuine diversity of thought and strong, good quality leadership that is able to recognise groupthink and challenge it. Our party system seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

    Don't hold your breath folks!
    I completely agree with you Nigel.

    Some people are just unwilling to countenance those who have sincerely held differing opinions to them.

    Its not healthy by any means. Only through intellectual challenge and free thought do bad ideas get identified and dismissed, otherwise they ossify into shibboleths.
    I listened to an interesting interview with Big Dom's favourite "rationalist" philosopher the other week. She made a really striking point. In her field, she stated the convention is that every argument somebody makes is treated as coming from a good place, with honest intensions and presumed to have merit and thus you should start your discussion / argument from that assumption. And that both parties are willing to discuss both sides openly, with the ultimate desire to find the best position.

    And the interviewer said, but what if somebody is a bad faith actor. And she sighed and said, well it falls down....and does that happen...sigh, when I started no, not much, now, yes....
    I wonder whether it really has gotten worse, or if people are more cynical or its easier to identify those who are bad faith actors than it was in the past?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Interesting from CNN.

    "Rising crime puts Democrats on edge
    Julian Zelizer, CNN Political Analyst"

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/23/opinions/homicide-rates-crime-law-and-order-biden-democrats-zelizer/index.html
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395
    Carnyx said:

    BigRich said:

    I've got a holiday in the Orkney islands planed, for 4 July will I still be able to go? or will they start to lockdown again?

    P.S. any top tips for things to see in the Orkney islands?
    Nava/mil history - Lyness base, maybe a boat tour with camera on a string for the sunken German fleet if that is up and running, some stuff in Stromness Museum. Also Churchill barriers.
    Mediaeval - Kirkwall cathedral, the two palaces, Stromness town
    Archaeological - wall to wall but specials include the Maes Howe/Borgar/Stenness complex in central Mainland. Have a look at the Historic Scotland website for some other ideas of sites. Tomn of the Eagles on South Ronaldsay is I think privately owned.
    Scenic - Yesnaby, Kitchener Monument, walk around coast from Stromness town round to Breckness, for instance
    Cultural - two farmhouse longhouse museums in Mainland when I last went

    The abvoe is the Mainland plus cuaseway connexted islands plus Hoy (ferry). Of the smaller nothern islands, I like Westray very much - castle, scenic Noss Head for birdies, general ambience, golf course (not exactly the R&A, no idea if still there - Papa Westray is the one with the v. ancient houses.

    Food etc - try bere bannocks, and the local whisky, Highland Park being one of my favourite breweries, Scapa is also worth a taste if available

    Tourist Info office on Kirkwall.Stromness definitely worth talkign to. When I was there there was a ghood bookshop[ in Stromness with lots of local stuff.

    May have to save it for another year, mind.
    Orkney is wonderful. I was particularly struck by Maes Howe with its Viking graffiti. But the whole place is tremendous. Carnyx covers most of the "must sees" but I would add the Italian chapel - a Nissen hut turned into a church by Italian POWs.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    82.9% of adults first vaccinated now.

    Since I highly doubt we'll reach 90%, that's an incredible achievement. Must be extremely close to being finished now.

    I'm curious what percentage of adults other nations that have peaked like Israel or USA have achieved?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    What’s happened at the BBC and the Met police shows the perils of groupthink

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/24/bbc-met-police-perils-groupthink

    Thanks for sharing. Groupthink is a fascinating psychological phenomena from a team dynamic perspective. It is particularly dangerous when conformity of thinking is combined with weak leadership. It is particularly worrying for our political parties and system of government.

    The antidote to groupthink (paradoxically for wokists and , anti-woke warriors alike) is genuine diversity of thought and strong, good quality leadership that is able to recognise groupthink and challenge it. Our party system seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

    Don't hold your breath folks!
    I completely agree with you Nigel.

    Some people are just unwilling to countenance those who have sincerely held differing opinions to them.

    Its not healthy by any means. Only through intellectual challenge and free thought do bad ideas get identified and dismissed, otherwise they ossify into shibboleths.
    I listened to an interesting interview with Big Dom's favourite "rationalist" philosopher the other week. She made a really striking point. In her field, she stated the convention is that every argument somebody makes is treated as coming from a good place, with honest intensions and presumed to have merit and thus you should start your discussion / argument from that assumption. And that both parties are willing to discuss both sides openly, with the ultimate desire to find the best position.

    And the interviewer said, but what if somebody is a bad faith actor. And she sighed and said, well it falls down....and does that happen...sigh, when I started no, not much, now, yes....
    I wonder whether it really has gotten worse, or if people are more cynical or its easier to identify those who are bad faith actors than it was in the past?
    Perhaps....but she seemed convinced this type of closed minded polarisation was worse (and she certainly wasn't right learning "free speech" absolutist type who moan about cancel culture and wokeism, definitely left leaning).
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    Sean_F said:

    I remember reading a tweet that purported to come from Marjorie Taylor Greene, and I'm not sure if it's authentic or not.

    "The Bible was written by the greatest American ever, Jesus",

    MTG has said some exceptionally stupid stuff before, so it's quite plausible.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    edited June 2021

    What’s happened at the BBC and the Met police shows the perils of groupthink

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/24/bbc-met-police-perils-groupthink

    Thanks for sharing. Groupthink is a fascinating psychological phenomena from a team dynamic perspective. It is particularly dangerous when conformity of thinking is combined with weak leadership. It is particularly worrying for our political parties and system of government.

    The antidote to groupthink (paradoxically for wokists and , anti-woke warriors alike) is genuine diversity of thought and strong, good quality leadership that is able to recognise groupthink and challenge it. Our party system seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

    Don't hold your breath folks!
    I completely agree with you Nigel.

    Some people are just unwilling to countenance those who have sincerely held differing opinions to them.

    Its not healthy by any means. Only through intellectual challenge and free thought do bad ideas get identified and dismissed, otherwise they ossify into shibboleths.
    I listened to an interesting interview with Big Dom's favourite "rationalist" philosopher the other week. She made a really striking point. In her field, she stated the convention is that every argument somebody makes is treated as coming from a good place, with honest intensions and presumed to have merit and thus you should start your discussion / argument from that assumption. And that both parties are willing to discuss both sides openly, with the ultimate desire to find the best position.

    And the interviewer said, but what if somebody is a bad faith actor. And she sighed and said, well it falls down....and does that happen...sigh, when I started no, not much, now, yes....
    I wonder whether it really has gotten worse, or if people are more cynical or its easier to identify those who are bad faith actors than it was in the past?
    If you're debating face to face, or producing a paper for peer review, it's pretty difficult to argue in bad faith. On social media, it's extremely easy to do so, because you're playing to the gallery.

    For example, when I wrote my Diss Prep essay, and when I complete my Dissertation, every fact that I cite in support of my arguments has to be footnoted, unless it's common knowledge. So, anyone reading it can check if I'm lying or plagiarising. You don't do that on social media.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395
    FWIW i think Nicola's scrap with Andy Burnham was quite a considerable misstep by her. The Anglophobia just too blatant. Might fire up the base but a big turn-off for everyone else.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Sean_F said:

    16,700 cases, 21 deaths, 204 admissions, 1,533 in hospital. Admissions are actually down week on week.

    Vaccines work?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    glw said:

    Sean_F said:

    I remember reading a tweet that purported to come from Marjorie Taylor Greene, and I'm not sure if it's authentic or not.

    "The Bible was written by the greatest American ever, Jesus",

    MTG has said some exceptionally stupid stuff before, so it's quite plausible.
    MTG? Magic: The Gathering has more of a grounding in reality.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    What’s happened at the BBC and the Met police shows the perils of groupthink

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/24/bbc-met-police-perils-groupthink

    This is the best article I've read in the Guardian for a long time.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting from CNN.

    "Rising crime puts Democrats on edge
    Julian Zelizer, CNN Political Analyst"

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/23/opinions/homicide-rates-crime-law-and-order-biden-democrats-zelizer/index.html

    Classic CNN opinion....yes well violent crime is increasing, probably not best idea to "defund the police"....but the problem is all cos of racism innit, so absolutely the wrong approach is to come down hard on crime.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    TimS said:

    I wish Labour would have a leadership election and tear chunks out of each other. It might look unedifying at the time, but it would:

    - shake them out of their current stupor
    - actually get them airtime
    - enable leadership hopefuls to test out some opposition attack lines and policies that might have a chance of capturing the electorate's imagination
    - with luck, act as a final unsuccessful stand by the far left before they finally head off back to the SWP
    - bring to the forefront someone with charisma and half a chance of actually beating the conservatives (though the only one I really rate, Jess Phillips, unfortunately doesn't stand a chance)

    That'll happen, but Labour's biggest issue now is just that they have a lot of poor MPs. Their best MPs aren't actually talking to Labour.

    There's a huge lesson here for all parties that no matter how comfortable you are, you should pay attention to making sure that your MPs are good.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    NEW: Portugal suspends lifting of coronavirus restrictions as new cases continue to rise, fueled by the Delta variant
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    BREAKING: Rudy Giuliani's law license has been suspended.

    A disciplinary body says he made "demonstrably false and misleading statements to courts, lawmakers and the public at large in his capacity as lawyer for former President Donald J. Trump."

    http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/ad1/calendar/List_Word/2021/06_Jun/24/PDF/Matter of Giuliani (2021-00506) PC.pdf
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Are we sure it's autism people are worried about:


    I remember reading a tweet that purported to come from Marjorie Taylor Greene, and I'm not sure if it's authentic or not.

    "The Bible was written by the greatest American ever, Jesus",
    Reminds me of this famous statement: "If the English language was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Are we all excited for Microsoft Windows 11?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Sean_F said:

    16,700 cases, 21 deaths, 204 admissions, 1,533 in hospital. Admissions are actually down week on week.

    Vaccines work?
    I'm sure You Know Who will be along later to tell us that they don't work.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    What’s happened at the BBC and the Met police shows the perils of groupthink

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/24/bbc-met-police-perils-groupthink

    Thanks for sharing. Groupthink is a fascinating psychological phenomena from a team dynamic perspective. It is particularly dangerous when conformity of thinking is combined with weak leadership. It is particularly worrying for our political parties and system of government.

    The antidote to groupthink (paradoxically for wokists and , anti-woke warriors alike) is genuine diversity of thought and strong, good quality leadership that is able to recognise groupthink and challenge it. Our party system seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

    Don't hold your breath folks!
    I completely agree with you Nigel.

    Some people are just unwilling to countenance those who have sincerely held differing opinions to them.

    Its not healthy by any means. Only through intellectual challenge and free thought do bad ideas get identified and dismissed, otherwise they ossify into shibboleths.
    I listened to an interesting interview with Big Dom's favourite "rationalist" philosopher the other week. She made a really striking point. In her field, she stated the convention is that every argument somebody makes is treated as coming from a good place, with honest intensions and presumed to have merit and thus you should start your discussion / argument from that assumption. And that both parties are willing to discuss both sides openly, with the ultimate desire to find the best position.

    And the interviewer said, but what if somebody is a bad faith actor. And she sighed and said, well it falls down....and does that happen...sigh, when I started no, not much, now, yes....
    I wonder whether it really has gotten worse, or if people are more cynical or its easier to identify those who are bad faith actors than it was in the past?
    Given his recent roles I think Sean Bean qualifies as a good faith actor.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Are we all excited for Microsoft Windows 11?

    I thought they'd stopped doing version numbers?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    edited June 2021
    Hospital admissions down week on week for 3rd day in a row. Total in hospital has been basically flat for the last 4 days (currently lower than on Monday).

    Case numbers do seem to have turned up again a bit more than you'd expect, but hospital data probably better than you'd expect, and the cases remain heavily youth led.

    In my area the rate for 20-24 year olds in the last week is now nearly 1 in 200, with no other age group more than 1 in 1000 and cases amongst the over 60s about as rare as hens teeth.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Wow:

    Mark Rutte: "For me, Hungary has no place in the EU anymore”

    Rutte if they refuse to withdraw the legislation: “then as far as I am concerned, then there is nothing left for them in the EU”

    “This is such a fundamental point, that if we let that go, we are nothing more than a trading block and a currency”


    https://twitter.com/SkyScottBeasley/status/1408077831091937288
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Carnyx said:

    BigRich said:

    I've got a holiday in the Orkney islands planed, for 4 July will I still be able to go? or will they start to lockdown again?

    P.S. any top tips for things to see in the Orkney islands?
    Nava/mil history - Lyness base, maybe a boat tour with camera on a string for the sunken German fleet if that is up and running, some stuff in Stromness Museum. Also Churchill barriers.
    Mediaeval - Kirkwall cathedral, the two palaces, Stromness town
    Archaeological - wall to wall but specials include the Maes Howe/Borgar/Stenness complex in central Mainland. Have a look at the Historic Scotland website for some other ideas of sites. Tomn of the Eagles on South Ronaldsay is I think privately owned.
    Scenic - Yesnaby, Kitchener Monument, walk around coast from Stromness town round to Breckness, for instance
    Cultural - two farmhouse longhouse museums in Mainland when I last went

    The abvoe is the Mainland plus cuaseway connexted islands plus Hoy (ferry). Of the smaller nothern islands, I like Westray very much - castle, scenic Noss Head for birdies, general ambience, golf course (not exactly the R&A, no idea if still there - Papa Westray is the one with the v. ancient houses.

    Food etc - try bere bannocks, and the local whisky, Highland Park being one of my favourite breweries, Scapa is also worth a taste if available

    Tourist Info office on Kirkwall.Stromness definitely worth talkign to. When I was there there was a ghood bookshop[ in Stromness with lots of local stuff.

    May have to save it for another year, mind.
    Tomb of the Eagles is permanently shut.

    The St Magnus cathedral in Kirkwall is essential, as is Maes Howe and Skara Brae and all the other big prehistoric sites.

    Italian chapel.

    Egilsay

    Orkney museum

    Brough of Birsay

    Broch of Gurness




  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Wow:

    Mark Rutte: "For me, Hungary has no place in the EU anymore”

    Rutte if they refuse to withdraw the legislation: “then as far as I am concerned, then there is nothing left for them in the EU”

    “This is such a fundamental point, that if we let that go, we are nothing more than a trading block and a currency”


    https://twitter.com/SkyScottBeasley/status/1408077831091937288

    There are a number of other Eastern European countries that support Hungary. One of Orban's smartest decisions is forming his own little power block inside the power block.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    Wow:

    Mark Rutte: "For me, Hungary has no place in the EU anymore”

    Rutte if they refuse to withdraw the legislation: “then as far as I am concerned, then there is nothing left for them in the EU”

    “This is such a fundamental point, that if we let that go, we are nothing more than a trading block and a currency


    https://twitter.com/SkyScottBeasley/status/1408077831091937288

    The horror!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,155

    Carnyx said:

    BigRich said:

    I've got a holiday in the Orkney islands planed, for 4 July will I still be able to go? or will they start to lockdown again?

    P.S. any top tips for things to see in the Orkney islands?
    Nava/mil history - Lyness base, maybe a boat tour with camera on a string for the sunken German fleet if that is up and running, some stuff in Stromness Museum. Also Churchill barriers.
    Mediaeval - Kirkwall cathedral, the two palaces, Stromness town
    Archaeological - wall to wall but specials include the Maes Howe/Borgar/Stenness complex in central Mainland. Have a look at the Historic Scotland website for some other ideas of sites. Tomn of the Eagles on South Ronaldsay is I think privately owned.
    Scenic - Yesnaby, Kitchener Monument, walk around coast from Stromness town round to Breckness, for instance
    Cultural - two farmhouse longhouse museums in Mainland when I last went

    The abvoe is the Mainland plus cuaseway connexted islands plus Hoy (ferry). Of the smaller nothern islands, I like Westray very much - castle, scenic Noss Head for birdies, general ambience, golf course (not exactly the R&A, no idea if still there - Papa Westray is the one with the v. ancient houses.

    Food etc - try bere bannocks, and the local whisky, Highland Park being one of my favourite breweries, Scapa is also worth a taste if available

    Tourist Info office on Kirkwall.Stromness definitely worth talkign to. When I was there there was a ghood bookshop[ in Stromness with lots of local stuff.

    May have to save it for another year, mind.
    Orkney is wonderful. I was particularly struck by Maes Howe with its Viking graffiti. But the whole place is tremendous. Carnyx covers most of the "must sees" but I would add the Italian chapel - a Nissen hut turned into a church by Italian POWs.
    I'd forgotten about that. But that combines nicely with a trip to see the Churchill Barriers (which the Italians were building, as it happens).
This discussion has been closed.