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Chesham Tory Peter Fleet was on a losing run right from his selection as candidate – politicalbettin

SystemSystem Posts: 12,181
edited June 2021 in General
imageChesham Tory Peter Fleet was on a losing run right from his selection as candidate – politicalbetting.com

In the aftermath of the Chesham by-election Peter Fleet has issued a series of Tweets expressing his bitterness about the outcome and Lib Dem tactics. Fair enough – I tried to run for parliament once and I know how failure affected me.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    First
  • eekeek Posts: 28,440
    Shouldn't the last sentence read - I would win or he (Peter) would lose

    Peter Fleet didn't know the area - which meant he followed the Tory Government policy on HS2 rather than the necessary logic of keeping quiet about it.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    eek said:

    Shouldn't the last sentence read - I would win or he (Peter) would lose

    Peter Fleet didn't know the area - which meant he followed the Tory Government policy on HS2 rather than the necessary logic of keeping quiet about it.

    Thanks for that - just clarified it in the posr
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    edited June 2021
    Boris says foreign travel will continue to be difficult for the rest of the year...and winter is going to be shit.

    Other than that, things looking up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,332
    edited June 2021
    The LDs have a good record in Tory held seats in by elections where they started in 2nd place, from Orpington, to Eastbourne to Newbury and Christchurch to Richmond Park and now Chesham and Amersham. However the Tories will be encouraged by the fact that with the exception of Newbury all those seats returned to the Tories at the next general election.

    The LDs though will be encouraged to target other similar Remain seats in the Home Counties with lots of opposition to greenbelt development and similar demographics to Chesham and Amersham from Esher and Walton to Guildford, Wokingham and Wantage at the next general election. If they got anything like the swing in Chesham in 2024 then Dominic Raab, John Redwood and Jeremy Hunt for example would all see their seats go LD.



  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    LOL. There is a distinct shortfall of gravitas in the replies to whinging twat's twitter thread.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,481

    The LDs absolutely benefit from by-elections by being shamelessly able to claim to be for whatever the constituency in question wants on whatever issues of the day exists.

    HS2? Oh we're against that (despite party policy being in favour)
    House building? Oh we're against that (despite party policy supporting free movement)

    Much easier to talk out of both sides of your mouth if you're only talking to one audience and they're not too familiar with your national issues.

    Much harder to do that in national elections where the Lib Dems need to come up with national policies which just don't win people around.

    "Shameless", and from a Boris fan :smile:
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,183
    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,239
    edited June 2021
    FPT

    I have just listened to Sturgeon v Burnham row, and to be honest Sturgeon is mishandling this

    If I was a business in Scotland I would be furious, as again she says to the English you are not welcome in Scotland, but at the same time does not isolate Dundee which is worse than Bolton for covid infections

    Andy Burnham was restrained, but very coherent and I expect there will be many in Scotland extremely uncomfortable at the image Sturgeon is giving and she has made it a direct political attack by saying she wants a 'grown-up' conversation and not a platform for a Labour leadership campaign.

    And on that Burnham shames Starmer and would be a breath of fresh air as Labour leader.

    And on Boris, I am not at all content with him and join the growing band of conservative seeking a new leader asap
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FPT
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
    Yes and there's a pandemic going on. We're holidaying this year in Cumbria.

    I would love all pandemic restrictions to be abolished overnight, but unless they are the last thing to go should be quarantine restrictions.
    Again that's not the point.

    It is her job to keep the govt thinking about these things and to reflect many of her viewers' concerns.

    She is doing that.

    What do you think the policy on holidays now should be?
    No it is the point. The obsession over holidays has crowded out every other equally important issue.

    When the media get to ask questions, where are the important questions over weddings, or domestic tourism restrictions, or a plethora of other issues to be raised? Instead every single frigging time its holidays to the exclusion of all others.

    That's not doing the job, that's an obsession. Doing the job, keeping them thinking, would be to bring different perspectives, different questions from time to time.
    Because it's not your priority. We have already established that you are happy with every and any govt restriction including when other people complain that it breaches their red lines....right up until it breaches your own red line so you are an unreliable witness.

    And guess what? Other people care about holidays a lot and those questions are for those people.

    Crowded out? Are you kidding? There are zillions of questions about everything. Room for all.
    Sorry but you're completely wrong. There aren't zillions of questions, which is why the obsession over holidays is crowding out other issues.

    @Anabobazina was wisely alerting us to the issue of brides and wedding restrictions recently, but I never saw a single question on it until after Step 4 was delayed when suddenly it got mentioned on the news.

    But every single time holidays are mentioned. We get it, people want a holiay, but nothing's changed realistically since the last time it was asked and there's a plethora of questions not getting asked in the meantime.

    Realistically in the Press Conferences the mainstream news media gets 3 questions: One each for the BBC, ITV and Sky. Of those 3 questions you can almost invariably guarantee that one or two of those questions will be on whatever news story is dominating the day (especially if its embarrassing for the government) while the other one or two will be on holidays. Every single time. Other issues like weddings etc don't get a look in.

    Its not about what is or isn't my priority, it is the complete and utter falure to have any balance that is why the media is failing to do its job properly.

    If holidays were brought up from time to time instead of every time, with other questions in the mix, it would be reasonable.
    How would we know that nothing had changed since the last time it was asked unless it was asked again?
    Since yesterday and every other day? 🤦‍♂️

    Malmesbury has just given more excellent questions that could be asked. Are you like Burley incapable of thinking of anything at all that is an issue anywhere in this country other than holidays?
    Part of the problem is that the journalists don't seem to adapt their questions to other questions, or the answers to those questions.

    When I attend conferences, I try creating question "trees" - a sequence of questions and possible answers. So if someone else asks the same question I want to ask, I jump to the next question in that "tree". Or, if they have ended that "tree", switch to another...

    Why can't they do that?
    Holidays which don't involve suffering the rain and making the best of a shit experience matter to people.
    Don't forget the PB demographic is almost wholly: Comfortable.
    Quite the opposite Topping.

    Foreign holidays are the worries of those who are Comfortable.

    Whether they can get to work, have their wedding go ahead, will have a job soon, can operate profitably with social distancing regulations and all the plethora of other questions the media ignores are questions that matter for those who are uncomfortable or struggling.
    Foreign holidays are the icing on the cake for people who are comfortable. For a huge demographic they are vital relief from the daily grind. I suggest you head over to Manchester Airport once they are allowed again and try to work out the socio-economic breakdown.
    Manchester Airport has any and all socio-economic breakdowns going through it, in normal circumstances, but we aren't in normal circumstances are we?

    Its not just me and others, we've had many excellent questions asked here by the likes of @Cyclefree @Malmesbury @Anabobazina and many, many others that simply aren't asked by the likes of Burley.

    If your worry is whether you're going to get a holiday next week, or your worry is whether you're going to lose your livelihood next week, then I don't think the latter is more comfortable than the former.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,347
    Damn! Just missed the "Tories are thick as a brick" thread. Can we have another one soon please?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    Dura_Ace said:

    LOL. There is a distinct shortfall of gravitas in the replies to whinging twat's twitter thread.

    https://spacexfleet.com/a-shortfall-of-gravitas/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,407
    Witney is another. But, yes, the Lib Dems tend to win, when running from second.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    edited June 2021
    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,332
    algarkirk said:

    All true. Which means that people are reading far far too much into the significance of this byelection. It's part of a pattern going back at least to Orpington 1962.

    PS The mighty Matthew Goodwin has commented on Twitter about Mike Smithson's article on education and voting, pointing out that if only the highly educated could vote Jezza would be PM.

    According to Mori graduates voted 39% Labour, 34% Tory and 17% LD in 2019.
    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election

    That would give a hung parliament with Labour still 31 short of a majority, so Boris may have lost but Corbyn would not necessarily have won even with graduates alone, he would still have needed LD and SNP support

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=34&LAB=39&LIB=17&Reform=2&Green=3&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=23&SCOTLAB=19.6&SCOTLIB=6&SCOTReform=0.4&SCOTGreen=2.1&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=47.7&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019base
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,877
    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,165
    kinabalu said:

    Damn! Just missed the "Tories are thick as a brick" thread. Can we have another one soon please?

    Anything to keep the Labour luvvies happy about losing elections again and again and again......
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541

    The LDs absolutely benefit from by-elections by being shamelessly able to claim to be for whatever the constituency in question wants on whatever issues of the day exists.

    HS2? Oh we're against that (despite party policy being in favour)
    House building? Oh we're against that (despite party policy supporting free movement)

    Much easier to talk out of both sides of your mouth if you're only talking to one audience and they're not too familiar with your national issues.

    Much harder to do that in national elections where the Lib Dems need to come up with national policies which just don't win people around.

    To be absolutely fair, whilst the stance on HS2 is transparently Janus-faced that on the free movement of people isn't.

    It's entirely consistent to demand an inexhaustible supply of cheap labour, whilst expecting all the extra people to live out of sight and out of mind in jam packed squalor in the urban cores.

    Just because they're useful as cheap coffee baristas and plumbers, the upper middle classes don't want them and their smelly little children living in the same places. l mean, don't be silly!
    Perhaps, instead of airports on the Goodwin Sands, we should build offshore cities there?

    To rehash the old Polaris joke.....

    "Put the migrants out to sea, where the real estate is free. And they're far away from me"
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,931

    FPT

    I have just listened to Sturgeon v Burnham row, and to be honest Sturgeon is mishandling this

    If I was a business in Scotland I would be furious, as again she says to the English you are not welcome in Scotland, but at the same time does not isolate Dundee which is worse than Bolton for covid infections

    Andy Burnham was restrained, but very coherent and I expect there will be many in Scotland extremely uncomfortable at the image Sturgeon is giving and she has made it a direct political attack by saying she wants a 'grown-up' conversation and not a platform for a Labour leadership campaign.

    And on that Burnham shames Starmer and would be a breath of fresh air as Labour leader.

    And on Boris, I am not at all content with him and join the growing band of conservative seeking a new leader asap

    A friend of mine met English tourists in Galloway who expressed real reservations about what sort of welcome they would receive in Scotland. They, at least, had come but how many had thought the same and decided not to bother? This absurd anti-English mindset of resentment and grudge is not only epically stupid, it is also economically damaging. But the SNP supporters seem to lap it up and for Nicola that is all that matters.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,689
    You've got to feel for the guy. He'd presumably already placed the order with John Lewis for his parliamentary office curtains. This does reinforce something I've felt for years though: that Tory voters are massively less sentimental than the rest and will happily humiliate Boris, or anyone else, if they're perceived to be getting above themselves. Boris isn't the most humble or apologetic of chaps, so expect much more of this to come.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,901
    This piece is very important for anyone betting on by elections in the UK.
    The LDs have underwhelmed in by-elections in recent years, leaving some to conclude that the LDs by-election winning magic was gone for good. However, in large part, this was due to the lost-deposit-athon of 2015. Following that, there were relatively few places where the LDs did start from second place.
    But that shouldn't be taken to imply that the LDs can no longer win by elections where conditions are favourable. As we've just seen, they can, and will.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,332
    edited June 2021
    Peter Fleet is quite talented, he was a VP at Ford but seems to have been very unlucky in politics.

    Having lost Southampton Itchen in 1997 and the Tatton selection in 1999 to George Osborne he must have thought being selected for normally true blue Chesham and Amersham would see him returned to Westminster at last. However he has managed to lose the ultra safe seat to the LDs in the by election. Perhaps best for him to now give up politics and take up gardening or another hobby instead
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337

    FPT

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
    Yes and there's a pandemic going on. We're holidaying this year in Cumbria.

    I would love all pandemic restrictions to be abolished overnight, but unless they are the last thing to go should be quarantine restrictions.
    Again that's not the point.

    It is her job to keep the govt thinking about these things and to reflect many of her viewers' concerns.

    She is doing that.

    What do you think the policy on holidays now should be?
    No it is the point. The obsession over holidays has crowded out every other equally important issue.

    When the media get to ask questions, where are the important questions over weddings, or domestic tourism restrictions, or a plethora of other issues to be raised? Instead every single frigging time its holidays to the exclusion of all others.

    That's not doing the job, that's an obsession. Doing the job, keeping them thinking, would be to bring different perspectives, different questions from time to time.
    Because it's not your priority. We have already established that you are happy with every and any govt restriction including when other people complain that it breaches their red lines....right up until it breaches your own red line so you are an unreliable witness.

    And guess what? Other people care about holidays a lot and those questions are for those people.

    Crowded out? Are you kidding? There are zillions of questions about everything. Room for all.
    Sorry but you're completely wrong. There aren't zillions of questions, which is why the obsession over holidays is crowding out other issues.

    @Anabobazina was wisely alerting us to the issue of brides and wedding restrictions recently, but I never saw a single question on it until after Step 4 was delayed when suddenly it got mentioned on the news.

    But every single time holidays are mentioned. We get it, people want a holiay, but nothing's changed realistically since the last time it was asked and there's a plethora of questions not getting asked in the meantime.

    Realistically in the Press Conferences the mainstream news media gets 3 questions: One each for the BBC, ITV and Sky. Of those 3 questions you can almost invariably guarantee that one or two of those questions will be on whatever news story is dominating the day (especially if its embarrassing for the government) while the other one or two will be on holidays. Every single time. Other issues like weddings etc don't get a look in.

    Its not about what is or isn't my priority, it is the complete and utter falure to have any balance that is why the media is failing to do its job properly.

    If holidays were brought up from time to time instead of every time, with other questions in the mix, it would be reasonable.
    How would we know that nothing had changed since the last time it was asked unless it was asked again?
    Since yesterday and every other day? 🤦‍♂️

    Malmesbury has just given more excellent questions that could be asked. Are you like Burley incapable of thinking of anything at all that is an issue anywhere in this country other than holidays?
    Part of the problem is that the journalists don't seem to adapt their questions to other questions, or the answers to those questions.

    When I attend conferences, I try creating question "trees" - a sequence of questions and possible answers. So if someone else asks the same question I want to ask, I jump to the next question in that "tree". Or, if they have ended that "tree", switch to another...

    Why can't they do that?
    Holidays which don't involve suffering the rain and making the best of a shit experience matter to people.
    Don't forget the PB demographic is almost wholly: Comfortable.
    Quite the opposite Topping.

    Foreign holidays are the worries of those who are Comfortable.

    Whether they can get to work, have their wedding go ahead, will have a job soon, can operate profitably with social distancing regulations and all the plethora of other questions the media ignores are questions that matter for those who are uncomfortable or struggling.
    Foreign holidays are the icing on the cake for people who are comfortable. For a huge demographic they are vital relief from the daily grind. I suggest you head over to Manchester Airport once they are allowed again and try to work out the socio-economic breakdown.
    Manchester Airport has any and all socio-economic breakdowns going through it, in normal circumstances, but we aren't in normal circumstances are we?

    Its not just me and others, we've had many excellent questions asked here by the likes of @Cyclefree @Malmesbury @Anabobazina and many, many others that simply aren't asked by the likes of Burley.

    If your worry is whether you're going to get a holiday next week, or your worry is whether you're going to lose your livelihood next week, then I don't think the latter is more comfortable than the former.
    Have a look at the Jet2 customer demographic.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,183

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    Re header: I've just had a meeting with local LibDem activist. He are two other travelled to C&A to help canvass. Activists from many other parts of the country did likewise. LDs are good at this.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    HYUFD said:

    The LDs have a good record in Tory held seats in by elections where they started in 2nd place, from Orpington, to Eastbourne to Newbury and Christchurch to Richmond Park and now Chesham and Amersham. However the Tories will be encouraged by the fact that with the exception of Newbury all those seats returned to the Tories at the next general election.

    The LDs though will be encouraged to target other similar Remain seats in the Home Counties with lots of opposition to greenbelt development and similar demographics to Chesham and Amersham from Esher and Walton to Guildford, Wokingham and Wantage at the next general election. If they got anything like the swing in Chesham in 2024 then Dominic Raab, John Redwood and Jeremy Hunt for example would all see their seats go LD.



    A big problem for the Tories in seats like this is BoJo. View of him came up repeatedly on the doorstep. Hard to see Raab holding Esher with the current leadership.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,877
    Adam Brooks
    @EssexPR
    ·
    2h
    This morning
    @JuliaHB1
    asked me my thoughts on Vaccine Passports, I said it as it is..
    I’ve done this my whole life, I know more than the know it all journos on Twitter that say pubs could do this.

    We couldn’t, we won’t & neither should events,Theatres or Nightclubs #OpenForAll
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
    Yes and there's a pandemic going on. We're holidaying this year in Cumbria.

    I would love all pandemic restrictions to be abolished overnight, but unless they are the last thing to go should be quarantine restrictions.
    Again that's not the point.

    It is her job to keep the govt thinking about these things and to reflect many of her viewers' concerns.

    She is doing that.

    What do you think the policy on holidays now should be?
    No it is the point. The obsession over holidays has crowded out every other equally important issue.

    When the media get to ask questions, where are the important questions over weddings, or domestic tourism restrictions, or a plethora of other issues to be raised? Instead every single frigging time its holidays to the exclusion of all others.

    That's not doing the job, that's an obsession. Doing the job, keeping them thinking, would be to bring different perspectives, different questions from time to time.
    Because it's not your priority. We have already established that you are happy with every and any govt restriction including when other people complain that it breaches their red lines....right up until it breaches your own red line so you are an unreliable witness.

    And guess what? Other people care about holidays a lot and those questions are for those people.

    Crowded out? Are you kidding? There are zillions of questions about everything. Room for all.
    Sorry but you're completely wrong. There aren't zillions of questions, which is why the obsession over holidays is crowding out other issues.

    @Anabobazina was wisely alerting us to the issue of brides and wedding restrictions recently, but I never saw a single question on it until after Step 4 was delayed when suddenly it got mentioned on the news.

    But every single time holidays are mentioned. We get it, people want a holiay, but nothing's changed realistically since the last time it was asked and there's a plethora of questions not getting asked in the meantime.

    Realistically in the Press Conferences the mainstream news media gets 3 questions: One each for the BBC, ITV and Sky. Of those 3 questions you can almost invariably guarantee that one or two of those questions will be on whatever news story is dominating the day (especially if its embarrassing for the government) while the other one or two will be on holidays. Every single time. Other issues like weddings etc don't get a look in.

    Its not about what is or isn't my priority, it is the complete and utter falure to have any balance that is why the media is failing to do its job properly.

    If holidays were brought up from time to time instead of every time, with other questions in the mix, it would be reasonable.
    How would we know that nothing had changed since the last time it was asked unless it was asked again?
    Since yesterday and every other day? 🤦‍♂️

    Malmesbury has just given more excellent questions that could be asked. Are you like Burley incapable of thinking of anything at all that is an issue anywhere in this country other than holidays?
    Part of the problem is that the journalists don't seem to adapt their questions to other questions, or the answers to those questions.

    When I attend conferences, I try creating question "trees" - a sequence of questions and possible answers. So if someone else asks the same question I want to ask, I jump to the next question in that "tree". Or, if they have ended that "tree", switch to another...

    Why can't they do that?
    Holidays which don't involve suffering the rain and making the best of a shit experience matter to people.
    Don't forget the PB demographic is almost wholly: Comfortable.
    Quite the opposite Topping.

    Foreign holidays are the worries of those who are Comfortable.

    Whether they can get to work, have their wedding go ahead, will have a job soon, can operate profitably with social distancing regulations and all the plethora of other questions the media ignores are questions that matter for those who are uncomfortable or struggling.
    Foreign holidays are the icing on the cake for people who are comfortable. For a huge demographic they are vital relief from the daily grind. I suggest you head over to Manchester Airport once they are allowed again and try to work out the socio-economic breakdown.
    Manchester Airport has any and all socio-economic breakdowns going through it, in normal circumstances, but we aren't in normal circumstances are we?

    Its not just me and others, we've had many excellent questions asked here by the likes of @Cyclefree @Malmesbury @Anabobazina and many, many others that simply aren't asked by the likes of Burley.

    If your worry is whether you're going to get a holiday next week, or your worry is whether you're going to lose your livelihood next week, then I don't think the latter is more comfortable than the former.
    Have a look at the Jet2 customer demographic.
    During the pandemic. Sure.

    Please provide some data that shows that what demographic is more concerned with a weekend away than keeping their job, or their struggling business afloat or the plethora of other issues being ignored by the media while they fritter on about holidays.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,694

    Dura_Ace said:

    LOL. There is a distinct shortfall of gravitas in the replies to whinging twat's twitter thread.

    https://spacexfleet.com/a-shortfall-of-gravitas/
    Iain Banks, of course
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited June 2021
    DavidL said:

    FPT

    I have just listened to Sturgeon v Burnham row, and to be honest Sturgeon is mishandling this

    If I was a business in Scotland I would be furious, as again she says to the English you are not welcome in Scotland, but at the same time does not isolate Dundee which is worse than Bolton for covid infections

    Andy Burnham was restrained, but very coherent and I expect there will be many in Scotland extremely uncomfortable at the image Sturgeon is giving and she has made it a direct political attack by saying she wants a 'grown-up' conversation and not a platform for a Labour leadership campaign.

    And on that Burnham shames Starmer and would be a breath of fresh air as Labour leader.

    And on Boris, I am not at all content with him and join the growing band of conservative seeking a new leader asap

    A friend of mine met English tourists in Galloway who expressed real reservations about what sort of welcome they would receive in Scotland. They, at least, had come but how many had thought the same and decided not to bother? This absurd anti-English mindset of resentment and grudge is not only epically stupid, it is also economically damaging. But the SNP supporters seem to lap it up and for Nicola that is all that matters.
    Everybody was very friendly to English-sounding me in Glasgow last night. And very cheerful in general about how they had had or were shortly to get their jags.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541

    Dura_Ace said:

    LOL. There is a distinct shortfall of gravitas in the replies to whinging twat's twitter thread.

    https://spacexfleet.com/a-shortfall-of-gravitas/
    Iain Banks, of course
    Yes - Musk names all the landing ships/barges after Culture ships....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,332
    DavidL said:

    FPT

    I have just listened to Sturgeon v Burnham row, and to be honest Sturgeon is mishandling this

    If I was a business in Scotland I would be furious, as again she says to the English you are not welcome in Scotland, but at the same time does not isolate Dundee which is worse than Bolton for covid infections

    Andy Burnham was restrained, but very coherent and I expect there will be many in Scotland extremely uncomfortable at the image Sturgeon is giving and she has made it a direct political attack by saying she wants a 'grown-up' conversation and not a platform for a Labour leadership campaign.

    And on that Burnham shames Starmer and would be a breath of fresh air as Labour leader.

    And on Boris, I am not at all content with him and join the growing band of conservative seeking a new leader asap

    A friend of mine met English tourists in Galloway who expressed real reservations about what sort of welcome they would receive in Scotland. They, at least, had come but how many had thought the same and decided not to bother? This absurd anti-English mindset of resentment and grudge is not only epically stupid, it is also economically damaging. But the SNP supporters seem to lap it up and for Nicola that is all that matters.
    Sturgeon of course always says she is not anti English and has family in England but she does not seem to be doing that much to crack down on the wannabee Bravehearts within Scottish Nationalism
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Cookie said:

    This piece is very important for anyone betting on by elections in the UK.
    The LDs have underwhelmed in by-elections in recent years, leaving some to conclude that the LDs by-election winning magic was gone for good. However, in large part, this was due to the lost-deposit-athon of 2015. Following that, there were relatively few places where the LDs did start from second place.
    But that shouldn't be taken to imply that the LDs can no longer win by elections where conditions are favourable. As we've just seen, they can, and will.

    The previous two by-elections where they started in second place - Richmond Park and Brecon - they won. Richmond Park came back at GE2019
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:

    Peter Fleet is quite talented, he was a VP at Ford

    Does not compute.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,877

    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left


    Alastair Stewart
    @AlStewartOBE
    ·
    1h
    The
    @guardian
    wants a #GBNewsWatch to guard against all the nastiness on
    @gbnews
    .
    I did GP appointments, the need for reform of education, a 12 year old illegal immigrant now setting up a restaurant & paying his taxes, and a horse charity.
    Nasty stuff!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230

    HYUFD said:

    The LDs have a good record in Tory held seats in by elections where they started in 2nd place, from Orpington, to Eastbourne to Newbury and Christchurch to Richmond Park and now Chesham and Amersham. However the Tories will be encouraged by the fact that with the exception of Newbury all those seats returned to the Tories at the next general election.

    The LDs though will be encouraged to target other similar Remain seats in the Home Counties with lots of opposition to greenbelt development and similar demographics to Chesham and Amersham from Esher and Walton to Guildford, Wokingham and Wantage at the next general election. If they got anything like the swing in Chesham in 2024 then Dominic Raab, John Redwood and Jeremy Hunt for example would all see their seats go LD.



    A big problem for the Tories in seats like this is BoJo. View of him came up repeatedly on the doorstep. Hard to see Raab holding Esher with the current leadership.
    Is there an issue with encroaching new development in Esher? This would be key.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,209
    edited June 2021
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
    Labour should focus on the state pension being much less in the UK than everywhere else rather than the mechanism for improving it.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    HYUFD said:

    The LDs have a good record in Tory held seats in by elections where they started in 2nd place, from Orpington, to Eastbourne to Newbury and Christchurch to Richmond Park and now Chesham and Amersham. However the Tories will be encouraged by the fact that with the exception of Newbury all those seats returned to the Tories at the next general election.

    The LDs though will be encouraged to target other similar Remain seats in the Home Counties with lots of opposition to greenbelt development and similar demographics to Chesham and Amersham from Esher and Walton to Guildford, Wokingham and Wantage at the next general election. If they got anything like the swing in Chesham in 2024 then Dominic Raab, John Redwood and Jeremy Hunt for example would all see their seats go LD.



    A big problem for the Tories in seats like this is BoJo. View of him came up repeatedly on the doorstep. Hard to see Raab holding Esher with the current leadership.
    Honestly, I think these seats may now be gone anyway, whether Johnson stays on or not.

    The tories now have nothing for the voters in these seats but ashes.

    Higher taxes. Raids on pensions. Mass development. Infringements upon liberties. crumbling services. Bloated bureaucracy.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,332
    edited June 2021

    HYUFD said:

    The LDs have a good record in Tory held seats in by elections where they started in 2nd place, from Orpington, to Eastbourne to Newbury and Christchurch to Richmond Park and now Chesham and Amersham. However the Tories will be encouraged by the fact that with the exception of Newbury all those seats returned to the Tories at the next general election.

    The LDs though will be encouraged to target other similar Remain seats in the Home Counties with lots of opposition to greenbelt development and similar demographics to Chesham and Amersham from Esher and Walton to Guildford, Wokingham and Wantage at the next general election. If they got anything like the swing in Chesham in 2024 then Dominic Raab, John Redwood and Jeremy Hunt for example would all see their seats go LD.



    A big problem for the Tories in seats like this is BoJo. View of him came up repeatedly on the doorstep. Hard to see Raab holding Esher with the current leadership.
    If the Tories lost 40-50 seats in 2024 they would lose their majority.

    If the LDs gained 20 Tory seats in the South, including Raab's, then that would mean Labour only needs to gain 20-30 Tory seats or so on what it won in 2019 and Starmer would become PM most likely even if the Tories won most seats thanks to LD and SNP support. The DUP would now refuse to support the Tories either unless the Irish Sea border was removed.

    That is why I still think Starmer has a far better chance of becoming PM than some suggest even if Labour has next to no chance of a majority
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,209
    FPT

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    How i haven't missed Kay Burley on Sky.....I WANNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT MY SUMMMMMMMERR HOLLLLLIDAYYYY.

    Sorry, I never watch - is that a direct quote from her?
    Basically she was haranging Kwasi Kwarteng about what the societial benefits of having 2 jabs. And of course he said well its to protect you, your loved ones and the whole community. To which she replied, yes but that isn't enough, why can't we travel, why do we have to quarantine, there has to be more benefits to getting a second jab.

    You could see him going, 2 jabs needed againat Delta variant, what is she on about societial benefits....its less likely to bloody kill you, is that not enough?

    What she actually was getting at is she wants a foreign summer holiday....
    Wrong. Her viewers, many of whom are at a very small risk of Covid, want a holiday.

    Of all the Covid PB phenomena your constant puritanical curtain-twitching has been of the least edifying.
    Yes and there's a pandemic going on. We're holidaying this year in Cumbria.

    I would love all pandemic restrictions to be abolished overnight, but unless they are the last thing to go should be quarantine restrictions.
    Again that's not the point.

    It is her job to keep the govt thinking about these things and to reflect many of her viewers' concerns.

    She is doing that.

    What do you think the policy on holidays now should be?
    No it is the point. The obsession over holidays has crowded out every other equally important issue.

    When the media get to ask questions, where are the important questions over weddings, or domestic tourism restrictions, or a plethora of other issues to be raised? Instead every single frigging time its holidays to the exclusion of all others.

    That's not doing the job, that's an obsession. Doing the job, keeping them thinking, would be to bring different perspectives, different questions from time to time.
    Because it's not your priority. We have already established that you are happy with every and any govt restriction including when other people complain that it breaches their red lines....right up until it breaches your own red line so you are an unreliable witness.

    And guess what? Other people care about holidays a lot and those questions are for those people.

    Crowded out? Are you kidding? There are zillions of questions about everything. Room for all.
    Sorry but you're completely wrong. There aren't zillions of questions, which is why the obsession over holidays is crowding out other issues.

    @Anabobazina was wisely alerting us to the issue of brides and wedding restrictions recently, but I never saw a single question on it until after Step 4 was delayed when suddenly it got mentioned on the news.

    But every single time holidays are mentioned. We get it, people want a holiay, but nothing's changed realistically since the last time it was asked and there's a plethora of questions not getting asked in the meantime.

    Realistically in the Press Conferences the mainstream news media gets 3 questions: One each for the BBC, ITV and Sky. Of those 3 questions you can almost invariably guarantee that one or two of those questions will be on whatever news story is dominating the day (especially if its embarrassing for the government) while the other one or two will be on holidays. Every single time. Other issues like weddings etc don't get a look in.

    Its not about what is or isn't my priority, it is the complete and utter falure to have any balance that is why the media is failing to do its job properly.

    If holidays were brought up from time to time instead of every time, with other questions in the mix, it would be reasonable.
    How would we know that nothing had changed since the last time it was asked unless it was asked again?
    Since yesterday and every other day? 🤦‍♂️

    Malmesbury has just given more excellent questions that could be asked. Are you like Burley incapable of thinking of anything at all that is an issue anywhere in this country other than holidays?
    Part of the problem is that the journalists don't seem to adapt their questions to other questions, or the answers to those questions.

    When I attend conferences, I try creating question "trees" - a sequence of questions and possible answers. So if someone else asks the same question I want to ask, I jump to the next question in that "tree". Or, if they have ended that "tree", switch to another...

    Why can't they do that?
    Holidays which don't involve suffering the rain and making the best of a shit experience matter to people.
    Undoubtedly, but it's not the only thing I care about by a long chalk.

    A question about why it's not permissible for churches to engage in congrational singing in England but it is in Wales would interest me for instance. I don't expect this to get asked every day, but given that Welsh guidance changed last week, it might have been a good question for this week?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    edited June 2021

    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left


    Alastair Stewart
    @AlStewartOBE
    ·
    1h
    The
    @guardian
    wants a #GBNewsWatch to guard against all the nastiness on
    @gbnews
    .
    I did GP appointments, the need for reform of education, a 12 year old illegal immigrant now setting up a restaurant & paying his taxes, and a horse charity.
    Nasty stuff!
    The hyperbole that the likes of the Guardian are throwing at it is laughable...GB News biggest crime is really that it is naff and actually not really very different to the other offerings. Its basically what Talk Radio already does. There is no real expert insight, no high level debate etc, it is just loads of filler with some Talk Radio type ranting.

    Trying to portray it is the Nazi News Network fronted by basically a load of people off BBC, ITV and Sky just doesn't pass the smell test.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,694

    Dura_Ace said:

    LOL. There is a distinct shortfall of gravitas in the replies to whinging twat's twitter thread.

    https://spacexfleet.com/a-shortfall-of-gravitas/
    Iain Banks, of course
    Yes - Musk names all the landing ships/barges after Culture ships....
    Is he part of Special Circumstances? Might explain a few things.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,548
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
    Lewell-Buck is utterly hopeless. I’m amazed she’s been put up for this. Seen her numerous times on the local politics show in the north east. She rarely impresses.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    tlg86 said:

    Emma Lewell-Buck just claimed that Bercow not getting a peerage is a source of dissatisfaction right across the country.

    No - seriously?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
    If you’re committed to the idea of ensuring that pensions maintain track with wages then the obvious thing to do is to institute some sort of five year average for that bit of the triple lock. Thereby ensuring that over time they never fall too far behind, but avoiding this absurd situation whereby pensions just are guaranteed to rise faster than inflation, wages AND 2.5% (which of course has been the real expensive thing in recent years with both wages and inflation having been on the floor)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    tlg86 said:

    Emma Lewell-Buck just claimed that Bercow not getting a peerage is a source of dissatisfaction right across the country.

    Finger on the pulse....
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,548
    Stocky said:

    tlg86 said:

    Emma Lewell-Buck just claimed that Bercow not getting a peerage is a source of dissatisfaction right across the country.

    No - seriously?
    Yes, she did and with a straight face too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,696
    tlg86 said:

    Emma Lewell-Buck just claimed that Bercow not getting a peerage is a source of dissatisfaction right across the country.

    Emma Clueless-Fuck....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,347
    edited June 2021
    On topic -

    I think there's a tendency for people to impute the reasons they like the most to the Con loss of C&A to the LDs.

    For example, of the following:

    1. A strengthening Remain identity.
    2. People seeing through Johnson.
    3. A growing awareness of government pandemic incompetence.
    4. Southern resentment over the perceived focus on the North.
    5. Nimby opposition to HS2.
    6. Nimby dislike of building more houses.

    I'd say it's definitely 1/2/3 - but I sense that's wishful thinking and in reality it's more 4/5/6. In which case what we have here is a great thing happening (Cons losing a safe seat) for all the wrong reasons.

    But it's ok. You can't always get what you want, and in this case - come the GE if the swing is repeated across the blue wall - we'll be getting what we need.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    1,008,472 appointments were booked in just two days, as the NHS COVID-19 vaccination programme opened up to all adults — that's over 21,000 every hour, or six every second! 💉

    Yeah but are the societial benefits worth it, copyright Kay Burley....
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,910

    The LDs absolutely benefit from by-elections by being shamelessly able to claim to be for whatever the constituency in question wants on whatever issues of the day exists.

    HS2? Oh we're against that (despite party policy being in favour)
    House building? Oh we're against that (despite party policy supporting free movement)

    Much easier to talk out of both sides of your mouth if you're only talking to one audience and they're not too familiar with your national issues.

    Much harder to do that in national elections where the Lib Dems need to come up with national policies which just don't win people around.

    Who were the PB Tories who, only the other day, were boasting how the Conservative Party was ready to do a complete about-turn on their policies if it meant that they could hang on to power?
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    The opposition to GBNews will ensure survival for a good while.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Triple lock is utterly indefensible
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,548
    kinabalu said:

    On topic -

    I think there's a tendency for people to impute the reasons they like the most to the Con loss of C&A to the LDs.

    For example, of the following:

    1. A strengthening Remain identity.
    2. People seeing through Johnson.
    3. A growing awareness of government pandemic incompetence.
    4. Southern resentment over the perceived focus on the North.
    5. Nimby opposition to HS2.
    6. Nimby dislike of building more houses.

    I'd say it's definitely 1/2/3 - but I sense that's wishful thinking and in reality it's more 4/5/6. In which case what we have here is a great thing happening (Cons losing a safe seat) for all the wrong reasons.

    But it's ok. You can't always get what you want, and in this case - come the GE if the swing is repeated across the blue wall - we'll be getting what we need.

    Funny you say that. On ITV news on Friday they had a vox pop from the seat and a lady, with a rather plummy accent, complained about all the money going to the North as a source of disatisfaction.

    The focus on the north is merely redressing the focus on the south for many many years.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ClippP said:

    The LDs absolutely benefit from by-elections by being shamelessly able to claim to be for whatever the constituency in question wants on whatever issues of the day exists.

    HS2? Oh we're against that (despite party policy being in favour)
    House building? Oh we're against that (despite party policy supporting free movement)

    Much easier to talk out of both sides of your mouth if you're only talking to one audience and they're not too familiar with your national issues.

    Much harder to do that in national elections where the Lib Dems need to come up with national policies which just don't win people around.

    Who were the PB Tories who, only the other day, were boasting how the Conservative Party was ready to do a complete about-turn on their policies if it meant that they could hang on to power?
    Do you understand the difference between a party changing and a person getting elected promising the opposite of what their party says it stands for? 🤔
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,696
    Stocky said:

    Re header: I've just had a meeting with local LibDem activist. He are two other travelled to C&A to help canvass. Activists from many other parts of the country did likewise. LDs are good at this.

    Not such good news when they try to hold it at the next General, of course....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423

    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left


    Alastair Stewart
    @AlStewartOBE
    ·
    1h
    The
    @guardian
    wants a #GBNewsWatch to guard against all the nastiness on
    @gbnews
    .
    I did GP appointments, the need for reform of education, a 12 year old illegal immigrant now setting up a restaurant & paying his taxes, and a horse charity.
    Nasty stuff!
    Doesn't sound very radical.
    But equally doesn't appear different to what you could encounter on numerous other platforms.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,347
    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    Damn! Just missed the "Tories are thick as a brick" thread. Can we have another one soon please?

    Anything to keep the Labour luvvies happy about losing elections again and again and again......
    Luvvies? - lol. Get your nose out of that expat Daily Mail, Felix. It's even worse than our one.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264

    The opposition to GBNews will ensure survival for a good while.

    Yeah but but but Dan Wooton biased rants are a threat to democracy...unlike James O'Brien's biased rants on LBC...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    dixiedean said:

    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left


    Alastair Stewart
    @AlStewartOBE
    ·
    1h
    The
    @guardian
    wants a #GBNewsWatch to guard against all the nastiness on
    @gbnews
    .
    I did GP appointments, the need for reform of education, a 12 year old illegal immigrant now setting up a restaurant & paying his taxes, and a horse charity.
    Nasty stuff!
    Doesn't sound very radical.
    But equally doesn't appear different to what you could encounter on numerous other platforms.
    And that is why it will fail, its a naff version of what is already available in an industry that already isn't profitable and where consumers are turning to other sources for info-tainment.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    1,008,472 appointments were booked in just two days, as the NHS COVID-19 vaccination programme opened up to all adults — that's over 21,000 every hour, or six every second! 💉

    Yeah but are the societial benefits worth it, copyright Kay Burley....

    That's fantastic.

    Half a million were done in the past 48 hours. It would be great if that pace could be kept up but I suspect we'll quickly slow down as those eager to be done first will be done and now there's nobody left to open it up to.

    Still, we're already at 81.6% of adults vaccinated. Biden and many other leaders could only dream of achieving such figures.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The LDs have a good record in Tory held seats in by elections where they started in 2nd place, from Orpington, to Eastbourne to Newbury and Christchurch to Richmond Park and now Chesham and Amersham. However the Tories will be encouraged by the fact that with the exception of Newbury all those seats returned to the Tories at the next general election.

    The LDs though will be encouraged to target other similar Remain seats in the Home Counties with lots of opposition to greenbelt development and similar demographics to Chesham and Amersham from Esher and Walton to Guildford, Wokingham and Wantage at the next general election. If they got anything like the swing in Chesham in 2024 then Dominic Raab, John Redwood and Jeremy Hunt for example would all see their seats go LD.



    A big problem for the Tories in seats like this is BoJo. View of him came up repeatedly on the doorstep. Hard to see Raab holding Esher with the current leadership.
    If the Tories lost 40-50 seats in 2024 they would lose their majority.

    If the LDs gained 20 Tory seats in the South, including Raab's, then that would mean Labour only needs to gain 20-30 Tory seats or so on what it won in 2019 and Starmer would become PM most likely even if the Tories won most seats thanks to LD and SNP support. The DUP would now refuse to support the Tories either unless the Irish Sea border was removed.

    That is why I still think Starmer has a far better chance of becoming PM than some suggest even if Labour has next to no chance of a majority
    I agree on that by then we always agree on these matters
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2021
    kinabalu said:

    On topic -

    I think there's a tendency for people to impute the reasons they like the most to the Con loss of C&A to the LDs.

    For example, of the following:

    1. A strengthening Remain identity.
    2. People seeing through Johnson.
    3. A growing awareness of government pandemic incompetence.
    4. Southern resentment over the perceived focus on the North.
    5. Nimby opposition to HS2.
    6. Nimby dislike of building more houses.

    I'd say it's definitely 1/2/3 - but I sense that's wishful thinking and in reality it's more 4/5/6. In which case what we have here is a great thing happening (Cons losing a safe seat) for all the wrong reasons.

    But it's ok. You can't always get what you want, and in this case - come the GE if the swing is repeated across the blue wall - we'll be getting what we need.

    Lab+LD 2021 is the same as Lab+LD 2019
    Turnout 19 dropped by the same amount as the Tory vote

    Them's the facts, and I'd say the most plausible reason for the LD win was Tory voters couldnt be arsed to vote, maybe as they are fed up with "lockdown", and if their party loses the seat they still have a massive majority

    Remainers/Boris haters had a chance to put a pie in his face, and were motivated by that
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230

    Stocky said:

    Re header: I've just had a meeting with local LibDem activist. He are two other travelled to C&A to help canvass. Activists from many other parts of the country did likewise. LDs are good at this.

    Not such good news when they try to hold it at the next General, of course....
    Yes - our local guy admitted that this approach has limits in scalability!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,879
    I notice Andy Burnham is shattering the progressive alliance this morning and telling Nicola to get stuffed with her anti-English travel bans.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Dura_Ace said:

    LOL. There is a distinct shortfall of gravitas in the replies to whinging twat's twitter thread.

    https://spacexfleet.com/a-shortfall-of-gravitas/
    Iain Banks, of course
    Yes - Musk names all the landing ships/barges after Culture ships....
    Is he part of Special Circumstances? Might explain a few things.
    I was idly wondering what safeguards are in place to stop him arranging for SN25 or thereabouts to redirect itself to the White House or the Pentagon.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    MaxPB said:

    I notice Andy Burnham is shattering the progressive alliance this morning and telling Nicola to get stuffed with her anti-English travel bans.

    Anybody would think there might be an opportunity opening up sometime soon...
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,081

    1,008,472 appointments were booked in just two days, as the NHS COVID-19 vaccination programme opened up to all adults — that's over 21,000 every hour, or six every second! 💉

    Yeah but are the societial benefits worth it, copyright Kay Burley....

    That's fantastic.

    Half a million were done in the past 48 hours. It would be great if that pace could be kept up but I suspect we'll quickly slow down as those eager to be done first will be done and now there's nobody left to open it up to.

    Still, we're already at 81.6% of adults vaccinated. Biden and many other leaders could only dream of achieving such figures.
    The government scaring people unnecessarily may have made them more reluctant to support ending restrictions, but at least it's made them more willing to get vaccinated. So, pros and cons.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    1,008,472 appointments were booked in just two days, as the NHS COVID-19 vaccination programme opened up to all adults — that's over 21,000 every hour, or six every second! 💉

    Yeah but are the societial benefits worth it, copyright Kay Burley....

    That's fantastic.

    Half a million were done in the past 48 hours. It would be great if that pace could be kept up but I suspect we'll quickly slow down as those eager to be done first will be done and now there's nobody left to open it up to.

    Still, we're already at 81.6% of adults vaccinated. Biden and many other leaders could only dream of achieving such figures.
    WOW, compliance must lead to liberty then.....!!!

    Oh wait. No it doesn't. We are still locked down. They are free.

    More to come in the Autumn if you don't take your booster like a good boy!!!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543
    I've seen this at close hand in SW Surrey, both in the GE (when it didn't altogether work) and the County election (when it did). The "swamping" really does work, irritating though it is to get 8 LibDem leaflets within a few weeks. The rider is that it needs to be locally-written or at least edited. A lot of the GE literature was still pushing the "Swinson for PM!" stuff when it clearly wasn't credible, and the local campaigners could have used the space better.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The LDs have a good record in Tory held seats in by elections where they started in 2nd place, from Orpington, to Eastbourne to Newbury and Christchurch to Richmond Park and now Chesham and Amersham. However the Tories will be encouraged by the fact that with the exception of Newbury all those seats returned to the Tories at the next general election.

    The LDs though will be encouraged to target other similar Remain seats in the Home Counties with lots of opposition to greenbelt development and similar demographics to Chesham and Amersham from Esher and Walton to Guildford, Wokingham and Wantage at the next general election. If they got anything like the swing in Chesham in 2024 then Dominic Raab, John Redwood and Jeremy Hunt for example would all see their seats go LD.



    A big problem for the Tories in seats like this is BoJo. View of him came up repeatedly on the doorstep. Hard to see Raab holding Esher with the current leadership.
    If the Tories lost 40-50 seats in 2024 they would lose their majority.

    If the LDs gained 20 Tory seats in the South, including Raab's, then that would mean Labour only needs to gain 20-30 Tory seats or so on what it won in 2019 and Starmer would become PM most likely even if the Tories won most seats thanks to LD and SNP support. The DUP would now refuse to support the Tories either unless the Irish Sea border was removed.

    That is why I still think Starmer has a far better chance of becoming PM than some suggest even if Labour has next to no chance of a majority
    King for a day?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423
    Sturgeon has had a fight picked by a fellow competent politician for a change.
    She seems surprised, and has fallen back on the "How dare he play politics!?" line.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
    The state pension is £179.60 a week, almost exactly half the minimum wage, so it is not clear that raising it will be electorally disastrous, though tbh I've never quite worked out why so many hate the triple lock as too generous; iirc it only means £10 or so more anyway.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    edited June 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Sturgeon has had a fight picked by a fellow competent politician for a change.
    She seems surprised, and has fallen back on the "How dare he play politics!?" line.

    I know Burnham had piped up, but who is the competent politician having a pop?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    LOL. There is a distinct shortfall of gravitas in the replies to whinging twat's twitter thread.

    https://spacexfleet.com/a-shortfall-of-gravitas/
    Iain Banks, of course
    Yes - Musk names all the landing ships/barges after Culture ships....
    Is he part of Special Circumstances? Might explain a few things.
    I was idly wondering what safeguards are in place to stop him arranging for SN25 or thereabouts to redirect itself to the White House or the Pentagon.
    I half wrote a story in my head, years ago. Individual with a burning hate, starts space company, build up etc. Unmanned mission to the outer solar system lost - but is secretly a gravity tractor to aim asteroid at a certain part of Earth....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541

    dixiedean said:

    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left


    Alastair Stewart
    @AlStewartOBE
    ·
    1h
    The
    @guardian
    wants a #GBNewsWatch to guard against all the nastiness on
    @gbnews
    .
    I did GP appointments, the need for reform of education, a 12 year old illegal immigrant now setting up a restaurant & paying his taxes, and a horse charity.
    Nasty stuff!
    Doesn't sound very radical.
    But equally doesn't appear different to what you could encounter on numerous other platforms.
    And that is why it will fail, its a naff version of what is already available in an industry that already isn't profitable and where consumers are turning to other sources for info-tainment.
    A platform showing topical, but researched-in-depth stories might have a future, though.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755

    1,008,472 appointments were booked in just two days, as the NHS COVID-19 vaccination programme opened up to all adults — that's over 21,000 every hour, or six every second! 💉

    Yeah but are the societial benefits worth it, copyright Kay Burley....

    It’s an impressive sounding headline, but is it really?

    In England there are 2 million 40 somethings without a first dose, 3.7 million 30 somethings, 2.5 million aged 25-29 and almost 5 million between 16-24 (16/17 not yet eligible of course).

    In the last month, the number of 50 somethings vaxxed has barely budged, up by about 1% point to 86%. There’s a similar tale for 40 somethings, now at 75% and up only by about 2% points in that time.

    30 somethings have some room to go but there’s diminishing returns to their programme too, with 35-39s now increasing by less than 1% a week and yet to reach two thirds covered. Will be interesting to see if Gen Z uptake is higher than Millennials. It wouldn’t surprise me.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    edited June 2021

    dixiedean said:

    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left


    Alastair Stewart
    @AlStewartOBE
    ·
    1h
    The
    @guardian
    wants a #GBNewsWatch to guard against all the nastiness on
    @gbnews
    .
    I did GP appointments, the need for reform of education, a 12 year old illegal immigrant now setting up a restaurant & paying his taxes, and a horse charity.
    Nasty stuff!
    Doesn't sound very radical.
    But equally doesn't appear different to what you could encounter on numerous other platforms.
    And that is why it will fail, its a naff version of what is already available in an industry that already isn't profitable and where consumers are turning to other sources for info-tainment.
    A platform showing topical, but researched-in-depth stories might have a future, though.
    There is opportunity there...hence why we see all these companies buying podcasts (which all have video streams).
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,423

    dixiedean said:

    Sturgeon has had a fight picked by a fellow competent politician for a change.
    She seems surprised, and has fallen back on the "How dare he play politics!?" line.

    I know Burnham had piped up, but who is the competent politician having a pop?
    Ha ha.
    You don't win every single ward in GM through not having an eye for the main chance.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
    The state pension is £179.60 a week, almost exactly half the minimum wage, so it is not clear that raising it will be electorally disastrous, though tbh I've never quite worked out why so many hate the triple lock as too generous; iirc it only means £10 or so more anyway.
    1) Old people tend to vote Tory
    2) Therefore all old people are Tories
    3) Therefore they are all evil and rich
    4) Therefore hating old people is good.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,183

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
    The state pension is £179.60 a week, almost exactly half the minimum wage, so it is not clear that raising it will be electorally disastrous, though tbh I've never quite worked out why so many hate the triple lock as too generous; iirc it only means £10 or so more anyway.
    I think there are lots of means tested add-ons too. The point is that not raising pensions in line with wages when wages are rebounding due to COVID doesn't seem especially controversial to me.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056

    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left


    Alastair Stewart
    @AlStewartOBE
    ·
    1h
    The
    @guardian
    wants a #GBNewsWatch to guard against all the nastiness on
    @gbnews
    .
    I did GP appointments, the need for reform of education, a 12 year old illegal immigrant now setting up a restaurant & paying his taxes, and a horse charity.
    Nasty stuff!
    The hyperbole that the likes of the Guardian are throwing at it is laughable...GB News biggest crime is really that it is naff and actually not really very different to the other offerings. Its basically what Talk Radio already does. There is no real expert insight, no high level debate etc, it is just loads of filler with some Talk Radio type ranting.

    Trying to portray it is the Nazi News Network fronted by basically a load of people off BBC, ITV and Sky just doesn't pass the smell test.
    Perhaps GB News is hoist by its own petard if it compared itself to Fox News when it was being set up. Seems its opponents were listening, not just its backers.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,679
    "‘He’s never spoken up about Muslims’: Keir Starmer leaves Batley voters disaffected

    Muslim voters say unhappiness with Labour leader means they will place votes elsewhere for first time"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/20/muslims-keir-starmer-leaves-batley-voters-disaffected-labour
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    I have just listened to Sturgeon v Burnham row, and to be honest Sturgeon is mishandling this

    If I was a business in Scotland I would be furious, as again she says to the English you are not welcome in Scotland, but at the same time does not isolate Dundee which is worse than Bolton for covid infections

    Andy Burnham was restrained, but very coherent and I expect there will be many in Scotland extremely uncomfortable at the image Sturgeon is giving and she has made it a direct political attack by saying she wants a 'grown-up' conversation and not a platform for a Labour leadership campaign.

    And on that Burnham shames Starmer and would be a breath of fresh air as Labour leader.

    And on Boris, I am not at all content with him and join the growing band of conservative seeking a new leader asap

    A friend of mine met English tourists in Galloway who expressed real reservations about what sort of welcome they would receive in Scotland. They, at least, had come but how many had thought the same and decided not to bother? This absurd anti-English mindset of resentment and grudge is not only epically stupid, it is also economically damaging. But the SNP supporters seem to lap it up and for Nicola that is all that matters.
    Everybody was very friendly to English-sounding me in Glasgow last night. And very cheerful in general about how they had had or were shortly to get their jags.
    Brave of you to do so thus attired though..




  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,264
    edited June 2021

    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left


    Alastair Stewart
    @AlStewartOBE
    ·
    1h
    The
    @guardian
    wants a #GBNewsWatch to guard against all the nastiness on
    @gbnews
    .
    I did GP appointments, the need for reform of education, a 12 year old illegal immigrant now setting up a restaurant & paying his taxes, and a horse charity.
    Nasty stuff!
    The hyperbole that the likes of the Guardian are throwing at it is laughable...GB News biggest crime is really that it is naff and actually not really very different to the other offerings. Its basically what Talk Radio already does. There is no real expert insight, no high level debate etc, it is just loads of filler with some Talk Radio type ranting.

    Trying to portray it is the Nazi News Network fronted by basically a load of people off BBC, ITV and Sky just doesn't pass the smell test.
    Perhaps GB News is hoist by its own petard if it compared itself to Fox News when it was being set up. Seems its opponents were listening, not just its backers.
    Did they? Do you have a link? Because all I heard was Andrew Neil saying people accuse us of wanting to be Fox News and we absolutely aren't going to be anything like that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    moonshine said:

    1,008,472 appointments were booked in just two days, as the NHS COVID-19 vaccination programme opened up to all adults — that's over 21,000 every hour, or six every second! 💉

    Yeah but are the societial benefits worth it, copyright Kay Burley....

    It’s an impressive sounding headline, but is it really?

    In England there are 2 million 40 somethings without a first dose, 3.7 million 30 somethings, 2.5 million aged 25-29 and almost 5 million between 16-24 (16/17 not yet eligible of course).

    In the last month, the number of 50 somethings vaxxed has barely budged, up by about 1% point to 86%. There’s a similar tale for 40 somethings, now at 75% and up only by about 2% points in that time.

    30 somethings have some room to go but there’s diminishing returns to their programme too, with 35-39s now increasing by less than 1% a week and yet to reach two thirds covered. Will be interesting to see if Gen Z uptake is higher than Millennials. It wouldn’t surprise me.
    Wales suggests that 88-89% is about where things will end up overall. Which means about 7-8% left in the rest of the UK.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    On topic -

    I think there's a tendency for people to impute the reasons they like the most to the Con loss of C&A to the LDs.

    For example, of the following:

    1. A strengthening Remain identity.
    2. People seeing through Johnson.
    3. A growing awareness of government pandemic incompetence.
    4. Southern resentment over the perceived focus on the North.
    5. Nimby opposition to HS2.
    6. Nimby dislike of building more houses.

    I'd say it's definitely 1/2/3 - but I sense that's wishful thinking and in reality it's more 4/5/6. In which case what we have here is a great thing happening (Cons losing a safe seat) for all the wrong reasons.

    But it's ok. You can't always get what you want, and in this case - come the GE if the swing is repeated across the blue wall - we'll be getting what we need.

    Lab+LD 2021 is the same as Lab+LD 2019
    Turnout 19 dropped by the same amount as the Tory vote

    Them's the facts, and I'd say the most plausible reason for the LD win was Tory voters couldnt be arsed to vote, maybe as they are fed up with "lockdown", and if their party loses the seat they still have a massive majority

    Remainers/Boris haters had a chance to put a pie in his face, and were motivated by that
    Question is- what do those voters do next time? Go back to the '92 to '97 Parliament, and you had Conservative commentators making a similar observation, and concluding that it would be just fine come the General Election. Indeed, I'm pretty sure there was a column in The Telegraph by a hack called Boris making that very point, something about how it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

    Pissed-off government supporters might come back for the real thing, but the record on that is patchy. And if the Lib-Lab voter exchange is flowing in a way that it hasn't since 2010, that's significant in itself.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,347
    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    On topic -

    I think there's a tendency for people to impute the reasons they like the most to the Con loss of C&A to the LDs.

    For example, of the following:

    1. A strengthening Remain identity.
    2. People seeing through Johnson.
    3. A growing awareness of government pandemic incompetence.
    4. Southern resentment over the perceived focus on the North.
    5. Nimby opposition to HS2.
    6. Nimby dislike of building more houses.

    I'd say it's definitely 1/2/3 - but I sense that's wishful thinking and in reality it's more 4/5/6. In which case what we have here is a great thing happening (Cons losing a safe seat) for all the wrong reasons.

    But it's ok. You can't always get what you want, and in this case - come the GE if the swing is repeated across the blue wall - we'll be getting what we need.

    Funny you say that. On ITV news on Friday they had a vox pop from the seat and a lady, with a rather plummy accent, complained about all the money going to the North as a source of disatisfaction.

    The focus on the north is merely redressing the focus on the south for many many years.
    Yep. If the focus is real and substantial - not yet convinced but let's see - it will be a very good thing indeed. The test of whether it is real and substantial is that the South has to lose out. You cannot "level up" - that's just cosy rhetoric. If you're going to genuinely advantage the North, the South must be disadvantaged. This is not debatable. It's an algebraic truth. And any Tory government brave enough to do this - I'm talking about with the economy not culture war bollox like "standing up for your British values" - will deserve and get my support. Not my vote, mind, but my support. How will this support manifest itself? I'm not sure. Probably just in secret little thoughts. So, ok, nobody will notice the difference, but it'll be there.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,950
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    I have just listened to Sturgeon v Burnham row, and to be honest Sturgeon is mishandling this

    If I was a business in Scotland I would be furious, as again she says to the English you are not welcome in Scotland, but at the same time does not isolate Dundee which is worse than Bolton for covid infections

    Andy Burnham was restrained, but very coherent and I expect there will be many in Scotland extremely uncomfortable at the image Sturgeon is giving and she has made it a direct political attack by saying she wants a 'grown-up' conversation and not a platform for a Labour leadership campaign.

    And on that Burnham shames Starmer and would be a breath of fresh air as Labour leader.

    And on Boris, I am not at all content with him and join the growing band of conservative seeking a new leader asap

    A friend of mine met English tourists in Galloway who expressed real reservations about what sort of welcome they would receive in Scotland. They, at least, had come but how many had thought the same and decided not to bother? This absurd anti-English mindset of resentment and grudge is not only epically stupid, it is also economically damaging. But the SNP supporters seem to lap it up and for Nicola that is all that matters.
    Everybody was very friendly to English-sounding me in Glasgow last night. And very cheerful in general about how they had had or were shortly to get their jags.
    Good to hear that luxury car sales are clearly booming north of the border.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
    The state pension is £179.60 a week, almost exactly half the minimum wage, so it is not clear that raising it will be electorally disastrous, though tbh I've never quite worked out why so many hate the triple lock as too generous; iirc it only means £10 or so more anyway.
    The entire problem of the triple lock is the steady transfer of more and more of the nation's wealth to the elderly. It ramps pensions ahead of wages, to a demographic that already owns a very large fraction of property wealth and which is still growing as a percentage of the population as it ages. All of this means that the old are becoming a progressively heavier burden on the young and that this trend will continue for many years to come.

    The shrinking working age population can't support itself and fund ever more generous benefits for the expanding retired population.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541

    dixiedean said:

    Another day, another guardian piece about how GB News is a threat to democracy....i suppose it makes a change to articles about wild swimming....

    And here we come to the risk of a common mistake: concluding that this is a fake news network that should be ignored, because the only way it achieves traction is via the friction of controversy, reaction and virality. But just because it appears not to be credible or competent doesn’t mean that it is not viable or that it won’t corrode our political culture further

    As the days and months pass, the GB News audience will be slowly radicalised, helping to push Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit England even further to the right. It is incumbent on us to pay attention. Call it GB News Watch.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/21/gb-news-andrew-neil-grievance-politics-left


    Alastair Stewart
    @AlStewartOBE
    ·
    1h
    The
    @guardian
    wants a #GBNewsWatch to guard against all the nastiness on
    @gbnews
    .
    I did GP appointments, the need for reform of education, a 12 year old illegal immigrant now setting up a restaurant & paying his taxes, and a horse charity.
    Nasty stuff!
    Doesn't sound very radical.
    But equally doesn't appear different to what you could encounter on numerous other platforms.
    And that is why it will fail, its a naff version of what is already available in an industry that already isn't profitable and where consumers are turning to other sources for info-tainment.
    A platform showing topical, but researched-in-depth stories might have a future, though.
    There is opportunity there...hence why we see all these companies buying podcasts (which all have video streams).
    Yes - if I had Bezos level money, I would be funding a interlinkage of pod casts (video and audio) and a news wiki. Stories as an ongoing, updated process, with a heavy emphasis on linkages between items/stories... Some way of flagging (for the customers) "I want more digging on this particular thing"??
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    moonshine said:

    1,008,472 appointments were booked in just two days, as the NHS COVID-19 vaccination programme opened up to all adults — that's over 21,000 every hour, or six every second! 💉

    Yeah but are the societial benefits worth it, copyright Kay Burley....

    It’s an impressive sounding headline, but is it really?

    In England there are 2 million 40 somethings without a first dose, 3.7 million 30 somethings, 2.5 million aged 25-29 and almost 5 million between 16-24 (16/17 not yet eligible of course).

    In the last month, the number of 50 somethings vaxxed has barely budged, up by about 1% point to 86%. There’s a similar tale for 40 somethings, now at 75% and up only by about 2% points in that time.

    30 somethings have some room to go but there’s diminishing returns to their programme too, with 35-39s now increasing by less than 1% a week and yet to reach two thirds covered. Will be interesting to see if Gen Z uptake is higher than Millennials. It wouldn’t surprise me.
    Wales suggests that 88-89% is about where things will end up overall. Which means about 7-8% left in the rest of the UK.
    Though the question becomes what denominator to use.

    The NIMS are very much an overestimate of the amount of people to vaccinate. The ONS perhaps an understimate (though if people have left the country it may be accurate).

    Wales are using ONS not NIMS aren't they?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
    The state pension is £179.60 a week, almost exactly half the minimum wage, so it is not clear that raising it will be electorally disastrous, though tbh I've never quite worked out why so many hate the triple lock as too generous; iirc it only means £10 or so more anyway.
    1) Old people tend to vote Tory
    2) Therefore all old people are Tories
    3) Therefore they are all evil and rich
    4) Therefore hating old people is good.
    But often it is the evil, rich Tories who lambast the triple lock, despite it being their side which introduced it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056
    OT GB News is still rubbish on streaming.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just caught the start of Politics Live and it's obvious that the pensions triple lock is a massive elephant trap for Labour and they are going to walk straight into it.

    How so?
    Well, I think it's obvious that the Tories will not raise pensions in line with wages (6% or something apparently) but will do so in line with inflation. So pensioners will get a rise. The Labour woman on the show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lewell-Buck) was saying "manifesto pledge, tax billionaires, etc. etc." and I suspect that's what Labour will say.

    I suspect most people will be understanding of the issue and will just see Labour as being incredibly juvenile.
    The state pension is £179.60 a week, almost exactly half the minimum wage, so it is not clear that raising it will be electorally disastrous, though tbh I've never quite worked out why so many hate the triple lock as too generous; iirc it only means £10 or so more anyway.
    1) Old people tend to vote Tory
    2) Therefore all old people are Tories
    3) Therefore they are all evil and rich
    4) Therefore hating old people is good.
    Taken to its conclusion the triple lock will eventually take up the whole uk budget.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541

    moonshine said:

    1,008,472 appointments were booked in just two days, as the NHS COVID-19 vaccination programme opened up to all adults — that's over 21,000 every hour, or six every second! 💉

    Yeah but are the societial benefits worth it, copyright Kay Burley....

    It’s an impressive sounding headline, but is it really?

    In England there are 2 million 40 somethings without a first dose, 3.7 million 30 somethings, 2.5 million aged 25-29 and almost 5 million between 16-24 (16/17 not yet eligible of course).

    In the last month, the number of 50 somethings vaxxed has barely budged, up by about 1% point to 86%. There’s a similar tale for 40 somethings, now at 75% and up only by about 2% points in that time.

    30 somethings have some room to go but there’s diminishing returns to their programme too, with 35-39s now increasing by less than 1% a week and yet to reach two thirds covered. Will be interesting to see if Gen Z uptake is higher than Millennials. It wouldn’t surprise me.
    Wales suggests that 88-89% is about where things will end up overall. Which means about 7-8% left in the rest of the UK.
    Though the question becomes what denominator to use.

    The NIMS are very much an overestimate of the amount of people to vaccinate. The ONS perhaps an understimate (though if people have left the country it may be accurate).

    Wales are using ONS not NIMS aren't they?
    Given that it was relative, I was using the ONS numbers.

    NIMS is much closer to the truth than ONS 2019, I think.
This discussion has been closed.