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Fighting COVID – is striving after perfection the enemy of the good? – politicalbetting.com

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  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903
    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    In shock news,…..

    Half the adult population of the UK watched online pornography during the pandemic, according to a projection by Ofcom which lays bare the activities of the 26 million individuals who view adult material.

    By far the most popular pornography site was PornHub, which was visited by 50% of all males and 16% of all females in the UK in September 2020 – giving the site a far larger audience than mainstream television channels such as Sky One, ITV4 and BBC News.

    The figures rise substantially among younger age groups, with a third of young women and three-quarters of young men visiting PornHub in the four weeks covered by the research. Ofcom also quoted PornHub’s own claims that the average UK visitor spent 10 minutes and 20 seconds on the site – an attention time that would be envied by many mainstream outlets.

    It's things like this that make me realise how out of touch I am. I have never watched any pornography, and have no desire to.
    You are not missing much.
    Relieved to hear it. (pun intended)
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    We need to start vilifying and sanctioning antivaxxers and those too lazy to get vaccinated. Also those who needlessly went overseas.

    A special circle of hell needs to be created for them.

    Exile them in Middlesbrough and no NHS access for them.

    These tossers are holding the country back, chuck in Boris Johnson for the fannying about he did and delaying the adding India to the red list.

    Hartlepool would be more appropriate
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    alex_ said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    But Nick. What does “running into trouble really mean?” Yes case numbers are bound to rise to some extent across the board. Yea unfortunately some will get sick, some seriously. But that, in itself can not be used as a reason for delay - where that delay in itself has significant downsides for the economy and all that involves. Because the vaccines likely mean there is a ceiling on how bad things can get. We are seeing that in places like Bolton.

    What is in danger of happening is that we are in danger of using past experience of COVID to dominate future decisions, when the situation has clearly changed.

    The logic being applied, is one that, if extended to anything other than COVID, would eg. result in a national lockdown every winter. Are we/is the NHS in more “trouble” now than it would experience in an average December?
    National lockdown every winter may be a popular policy. It wasn't long until I was hearing that social distancing and mask wearing would be good to reduce flu transmission.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,419
    My question is why has our vaccination rate dropped from two weeks back. If last week was a Bank Holiday and so people delaying jabs, this week should be a bonanza - but the rolling average is still dropping. What's going on
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    Down the road in Sussex CV19 has been absent for months, but it’s now popped up in my kids school. I hope we’re not climbing another part of the rollercoaster.
    They should stop testing in kids schools with immediate effect. Who cares if a kid has a sniffle. And passes it to another kid. Who passes it to their annoying anti vax parent and knobbles them.
    There is probably an argument for kids getting this. Start to build up immunity for a life of endemic SARS covid.

    Despite what the loons in zero covid central think, we have to learn to live with this virus.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,988

    We need to start vilifying and sanctioning antivaxxers and those too lazy to get vaccinated. Also those who needlessly went overseas.

    A special circle of hell needs to be created for them.

    Exile them in Middlesbrough and no NHS access for them.

    These tossers are holding the country back, chuck in Boris Johnson for the fannying about he did and delaying the adding India to the red list.

    Hartlepool would be more appropriate
    Middlesbrough is much worse.

    If a nuclear strike hit 'Boro it would improve the place.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Pretty remarkable that Gareth Southgate has hit upon a compelling narrative of progressive patriotism before Keir Starmer.

    https://twitter.com/anandMenon1/status/1402517894324527106?s=20
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    We need to start vilifying and sanctioning antivaxxers and those too lazy to get vaccinated. Also those who needlessly went overseas.

    A special circle of hell needs to be created for them.

    Exile them in Middlesbrough and no NHS access for them.

    These tossers are holding the country back, chuck in Boris Johnson for the fannying about he did and delaying the adding India to the red list.

    Hartlepool would be more appropriate
    Middlesbrough is much worse.

    If a nuclear strike hit 'Boro it would improve the place.
    That’s what they always said about Manchester. The IRA bombed the Arndale and caused £1bn of improvements.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,988
    Pulpstar said:

    My question is why has our vaccination rate dropped from two weeks back. If last week was a Bank Holiday and so people delaying jabs, this week should be a bonanza - but the rolling average is still dropping. What's going on

    Supply? I know you don't want to give the Oxford jab to the young but pretty much every twenty something I know is keen to get jabbed.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    Why would a border between Ireland and the EU be any more “workable” than the border in the Irish Sea?

    Or is the theory that having two borders (one EU/Ireland, one in the Irish Sea) makes it easier to justify not enforcing serious controls for either?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,211
    darkage said:

    alex_ said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    But Nick. What does “running into trouble really mean?” Yes case numbers are bound to rise to some extent across the board. Yea unfortunately some will get sick, some seriously. But that, in itself can not be used as a reason for delay - where that delay in itself has significant downsides for the economy and all that involves. Because the vaccines likely mean there is a ceiling on how bad things can get. We are seeing that in places like Bolton.

    What is in danger of happening is that we are in danger of using past experience of COVID to dominate future decisions, when the situation has clearly changed.

    The logic being applied, is one that, if extended to anything other than COVID, would eg. result in a national lockdown every winter. Are we/is the NHS in more “trouble” now than it would experience in an average December?
    National lockdown every winter may be a popular policy. It wasn't long until I was hearing that social distancing and mask wearing would be good to reduce flu transmission.
    To be fair, mask wearing and washing hands stuff is probably a very good idea fro elderly people in flu season. While not as horrific as the CFR for COVID, if you are 80 the flu is a noticeable risk.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,816
    Pulpstar said:

    My question is why has our vaccination rate dropped from two weeks back. If last week was a Bank Holiday and so people delaying jabs, this week should be a bonanza - but the rolling average is still dropping. What's going on

    Higher than last week, lower than the week before that, higher than the week before that and the week before that.

    Its been pretty steady but slowly increasing since Easter:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=overview&areaName=United Kingdom
  • alex_ said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    But Nick. What does “running into trouble really mean?” Yes case numbers are bound to rise to some extent across the board. Yea unfortunately some will get sick, some seriously. But that, in itself can not be used as a reason for delay - where that delay in itself has significant downsides for the economy and all that involves. Because the vaccines likely mean there is a ceiling on how bad things can get. We are seeing that in places like Bolton.

    What is in danger of happening is that we are in danger of using past experience of COVID to dominate future decisions, when the situation has clearly changed.

    The logic being applied, is one that, if extended to anything other than COVID, would eg. result in a national lockdown every winter. Are we/is the NHS in more “trouble” now than it would experience in an average December?

    And there is the point that many are making that if we are going to have an “exit wave” then better to have it in the summer, than extending into the winter.
    It’s not just the economy. The issue is also with mental health. I have not known anyone get seriously ill to the point of hospitalisation (I realise I may be not representative on this) with the virus. However many people I know have quite serious mental health issues due to the lockdown and scaremongering to the extent that there are people who are terrified to step outside. There needs to be a recognition in government and amongst the media that we are way past the point where we need to let it go. Everyone susceptible to a dangerous outcome has been offered the jab. Let’s just fucking get back to life. I am getting a strong feeling that Contrarian may be right about the creeping authoritarianism of those who want to keep us masked (which in itself seems to me to be a strong social inhibitor) and locked down.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited June 2021

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    Your obsession is even more bonkers. I cannot recall you being anything like as angry over Prince Andrew who should be extradited.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,316
    Given how flawed the pandemic response has been (and of course we're far from unique in that), striving after perfection, when it's almost at an end for the UK, seems particularly futile.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Pretty remarkable that Gareth Southgate has hit upon a compelling narrative of progressive patriotism before Keir Starmer.

    https://twitter.com/anandMenon1/status/1402517894324527106?s=20

    Players’ Tribune do have some really good writers.

    The fans are still going to boo the players kneeling before the matches.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,211

    Pretty remarkable that Gareth Southgate has hit upon a compelling narrative of progressive patriotism before Keir Starmer.

    https://twitter.com/anandMenon1/status/1402517894324527106?s=20

    I always though the idea of progressive patriotism was best summed up in the thunderous singing of Jerusalem at various Labour events I saw on TV when growing up. Watching, it was clear to me that quite a few people weren't just mumbling the words - it was a belief.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,816

    Sean_F said:

    It’s hard not to agree with the header. The justification for restrictions is not to ensure that no one gets Covid. It’s to ensure the NHS is not overwhelmed. There is no danger of that.



    A better public health response at the moment would be to tell young people they are at risk until they are vaccinated and repeat that message endlessly. Urge them to be cautious and only meet outside.

    Get vaccinated.
    Lose weight.

    Repeat.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Pulpstar said:

    My question is why has our vaccination rate dropped from two weeks back. If last week was a Bank Holiday and so people delaying jabs, this week should be a bonanza - but the rolling average is still dropping. What's going on

    Supply? I know you don't want to give the Oxford jab to the young but pretty much every twenty something I know is keen to get jabbed.
    Isnt the official policy to give non-AZ only if that does not impact supply? So if supply is the issue they should indeed be offering the young AZ but imagine that could get lost in translation.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Washington state is to give adults a free cannabis spliff after they receive a Covid jab in an attempt to accelerate vaccination uptake through a promotion coined “Joints for Jabs” by the state’s liquor and cannabis board.

    They should do a clinical trial to check for drug-drug interaction
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    alex_ said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    But Nick. What does “running into trouble really mean?” Yes case numbers are bound to rise to some extent across the board. Yea unfortunately some will get sick, some seriously. But that, in itself can not be used as a reason for delay - where that delay in itself has significant downsides for the economy and all that involves. Because the vaccines likely mean there is a ceiling on how bad things can get. We are seeing that in places like Bolton.

    What is in danger of happening is that we are in danger of using past experience of COVID to dominate future decisions, when the situation has clearly changed.

    The logic being applied, is one that, if extended to anything other than COVID, would eg. result in a national lockdown every winter. Are we/is the NHS in more “trouble” now than it would experience in an average December?

    And there is the point that many are making that if we are going to have an “exit wave” then better to have it in the summer, than extending into the winter.
    I'm not arguing for indefinite delay, and I agree that vaccination is largely effective, so it makes sense to relax when the overwhelming majority of adults (and IMO children of school age, but there's a debate on that) have been vaccinated. We can then relax and have a durable exit. But obsessing about a particular date is not sensible, any more than the ambiguity of international travel policy. Let's get the vaccination job largely finished, and then relax properly - otherwise we'll just go round in circles with a fresh lockdown in winter, with all the effects on economic activity and confidence which that would involve.

    This isn't just an observation for government, but for each of us. Too many people think the emergency is over and the rules need no longer be followed.

    And yes, the NHS is in critical trouble with waiting times for non-Covid tratment. A new wave of Covid cases in hospital is needed like a hole in the head.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    The NHS data grab has been put back three months, to 1st September.
    https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/08/uk_gov_delays_gp_data_grab/

    Not sure "NHS data grab" is the correct description. What is going on is the sale of data to private firms rather than the grabbing of it by the NHS. The NHS already has the data.

    In theory the data is anonymised, but combined with algorithms of other measures that Big Data has, it won't be for long. Supposedly this is for research, but once the data is out there, it will be of a lot of interest for marketing.

    It is possible to opt out prior to the deadline, but after that deadline an opt out only covers new data.

    Personally, I think such data uploads should require explicit consent. The data was collected for specific purposes and is not just an asset to be flogged off.

    I opted out of the data sharing thing a couple of years ago. Do I have to opt out again? I’ve not been sent anything about it
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,236

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    Your obsession is even more bonkers. I cannot recall you being anything like as angry over Prince Andrew who should be extradited.
    You don't think choosing Lillibet was deliberately provocative? Given the background of the Sussex's simultaneously attempting to relinquish their royal roles/duties and clinging on to being royals it is surely reasonable to harbour a suspicion that the name choice is entirely consistent with this aim.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,211
    Pulpstar said:

    My question is why has our vaccination rate dropped from two weeks back. If last week was a Bank Holiday and so people delaying jabs, this week should be a bonanza - but the rolling average is still dropping. What's going on

    The numbers yesterday are basically from Sunday. This pattern shows each week - Monday and Tuesday are the low point.

    If you look at the pattern, Monday and Tuesday this week are what you'd expect.

    image
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    alex_ said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    But Nick. What does “running into trouble really mean?” Yes case numbers are bound to rise to some extent across the board. Yea unfortunately some will get sick, some seriously. But that, in itself can not be used as a reason for delay - where that delay in itself has significant downsides for the economy and all that involves. Because the vaccines likely mean there is a ceiling on how bad things can get. We are seeing that in places like Bolton.

    What is in danger of happening is that we are in danger of using past experience of COVID to dominate future decisions, when the situation has clearly changed.

    The logic being applied, is one that, if extended to anything other than COVID, would eg. result in a national lockdown every winter. Are we/is the NHS in more “trouble” now than it would experience in an average December?

    And there is the point that many are making that if we are going to have an “exit wave” then better to have it in the summer, than extending into the winter.
    I'm not arguing for indefinite delay, and I agree that vaccination is largely effective, so it makes sense to relax when the overwhelming majority of adults (and IMO children of school age, but there's a debate on that) have been vaccinated. We can then relax and have a durable exit. But obsessing about a particular date is not sensible, any more than the ambiguity of international travel policy. Let's get the vaccination job largely finished, and then relax properly - otherwise we'll just go round in circles with a fresh lockdown in winter, with all the effects on economic activity and confidence which that would involve.

    This isn't just an observation for government, but for each of us. Too many people think the emergency is over and the rules need no longer be followed.

    And yes, the NHS is in critical trouble with waiting times for non-Covid tratment. A new wave of Covid cases in hospital is needed like a hole in the head.
    So its already being extended to children, which takes us to mid autumn, when the issue will be boosters and seasonal NHS capacity, and then it will be something else and so on. Worriers will always have something to worry about.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021
    I still find it weird to see the contrasting perceptions of many European countries and America that the pandemic is largely over, whilst the U.K. has got a real problem - and reconcling that with stats on hospitalisations and deaths where the U.K. is clearly running at an order of 5-10 times lower than many other countries.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021

    alex_ said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    But Nick. What does “running into trouble really mean?” Yes case numbers are bound to rise to some extent across the board. Yea unfortunately some will get sick, some seriously. But that, in itself can not be used as a reason for delay - where that delay in itself has significant downsides for the economy and all that involves. Because the vaccines likely mean there is a ceiling on how bad things can get. We are seeing that in places like Bolton.

    What is in danger of happening is that we are in danger of using past experience of COVID to dominate future decisions, when the situation has clearly changed.

    The logic being applied, is one that, if extended to anything other than COVID, would eg. result in a national lockdown every winter. Are we/is the NHS in more “trouble” now than it would experience in an average December?

    And there is the point that many are making that if we are going to have an “exit wave” then better to have it in the summer, than extending into the winter.
    I'm not arguing for indefinite delay, and I agree that vaccination is largely effective, so it makes sense to relax when the overwhelming majority of adults (and IMO children of school age, but there's a debate on that) have been vaccinated. We can then relax and have a durable exit. But obsessing about a particular date is not sensible, any more than the ambiguity of international travel policy. Let's get the vaccination job largely finished, and then relax properly - otherwise we'll just go round in circles with a fresh lockdown in winter, with all the effects on economic activity and confidence which that would involve.

    This isn't just an observation for government, but for each of us. Too many people think the emergency is over and the rules need no longer be followed.

    And yes, the NHS is in critical trouble with waiting times for non-Covid tratment. A new wave of Covid cases in hospital is needed like a hole in the head.
    Just as every winter it needs a serious flu outbreak like a hole in the head. And particularly this winter, given the backlog - so the logic is definitely to retain restrictions into the spring...

    Because what works for COVID, will work for flu, right?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Stocky said:

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    Your obsession is even more bonkers. I cannot recall you being anything like as angry over Prince Andrew who should be extradited.
    You don't think choosing Lillibet was deliberately provocative? Given the background of the Sussex's simultaneously attempting to relinquish their royal roles/duties and clinging on to being royals it is surely reasonable to harbour a suspicion that the name choice is entirely consistent with this aim.
    If they wanted provocative it could have been Jamie-Diana Greta.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,964
    edited June 2021
    Totally off-topical taste.

    I'm down to London next week for a couple of days - for the first time in over 15 months. (An in-the-room meeting with the animators for the first time.) Dinner booked at Hide.

    Is there anything on that is must-see at the mo?

    I'd enjoy a report on Hide.

    To each their own, of course. I love my fine dining, but judging by the pics I might privately go Jeremy Clarkson on them.

    To me the presentation has a for-instagram feel to it - like the shift from 'stripped out scandi' to 'urban hipster with textures' we have seen in interior decor over the last few years.



  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    moonshine said:

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    The bit I don’t understand is the at-odds briefings. “Harry spoke to his grandmother on the name beforehand”. Countered by “no he bloody didn’t”.
    I had heard that when Harry was a kid he said he wanted to… there’s no time constraint on when he spoke to HMQ
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    And Wembley are expanding spectators for the euros with vaccine passports i.e. the NHS app.

    Personally I think flashing your certificate is a very very very small price to pay for the rest of the freedoms that should come with it i.e. the normalising of everything else.

    Those who opposed this need to realise that the alternative is a dystopian nightmare of never-ending restriction.

    You have your jabs, you show your app, bingo. Then do what you want, whenever you want, wherever you want.

    People without smartphones?
    People who haven’t been offered the jab?
    People who can’t take it?
    Kids?
    Families with kids?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The people who were going to set up an Independent Country in 18 months can't transfer powers they were given 5 years ago....for another 3 years:

    A senior SNP minister has blamed “technical challenges” for the Scottish government’s failure to take full control over devolved benefits as she demands more powers from Westminster.

    Shona Robison, who has pushed this week for Holyrood to have full command over employment rights, said that the snagging issues centred on the “safe and secure” transfer of data.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-blames-data-problems-for-failure-to-use-its-powers-fjcl6fqfr
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Perfection isn’t really in sight at the moment


  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    alex_ said:

    I still find it weird to see the contrasting perceptions of many European countries and America that the pandemic is largely over, whilst the U.K. has got a real problem - and reconcling that with stats on hospitalisations and deaths where the U.K. is clearly running at an order of 5-10 times lower than many other countries.

    I think it's "once bitten, twice shy" - after last winter's experience a chunk of both the government and populace are, not unreasonably, very cautious. What they are not recognising is the economic downside of the delay.

    Burnham on R4 having the honesty to admit that speeding up vaccination in Manchester would slow it down in other areas...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,476
    alex_ said:

    I still find it weird to see the contrasting perceptions of many European countries and America that the pandemic is largely over, whilst the U.K. has got a real problem - and reconcling that with stats on hospitalisations and deaths where the U.K. is clearly running at an order of 5-10 times lower than many other countries.

    Remember that deaths, especially, are a lagging indicator- they reflect the situation about a month ago.

    Also remember that direction not travel matters- high and falling is in some ways better than low and rising.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,728

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    I think our own @williamglenn predicted this.

    And you know the EU are about to table a concession when the bleating reaches crescendo levels.

    I've always said there's no solution to NI that didn't split the difference and that requires a special status for NI in the UK, and for Eire in the EU.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,316

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    Why would they ask? :D Who cares man? This is ridiculous.
    Given how unusual and personal to the queen is the name, then without approval it's a case of appropriation, is it not ?

    Though I can understand that those who normally use the term wouldn't think of it that way.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    The Irish have got to wonder which God they displeased to have ended up next-door to the English.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Perfection isn’t really in sight at the moment


    Is that because we're starting from a relatively low base.

    So when you have 5 cases last week and it doubles the following week it becomes a 100% increase.

    As opposed to say January when you had a hundred cases which went up by 25% in a week, I know which is worse.

    Vaccines have broken the link between getting Covid-19 and dying.

    That's perfection in my eyes.
    In which case that metric needs to start coming down very soon indeed.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,816
    DougSeal said:

    Perfection isn’t really in sight at the moment


    Now show us the same graph for Bolton.

    Or to please Mike, Bedford.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,192
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    The NHS data grab has been put back three months, to 1st September.
    https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/08/uk_gov_delays_gp_data_grab/

    Not sure "NHS data grab" is the correct description. What is going on is the sale of data to private firms rather than the grabbing of it by the NHS. The NHS already has the data.

    In theory the data is anonymised, but combined with algorithms of other measures that Big Data has, it won't be for long. Supposedly this is for research, but once the data is out there, it will be of a lot of interest for marketing.

    It is possible to opt out prior to the deadline, but after that deadline an opt out only covers new data.

    Personally, I think such data uploads should require explicit consent. The data was collected for specific purposes and is not just an asset to be flogged off.

    I opted out of the data sharing thing a couple of years ago. Do I have to opt out again? I’ve not been sent anything about it
    You can opt out here...

    https://www.nhs.uk/your-nhs-data-matters/manage-your-choice/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    10 cases not 6?

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,172
    Sandpit said:

    Pretty remarkable that Gareth Southgate has hit upon a compelling narrative of progressive patriotism before Keir Starmer.

    https://twitter.com/anandMenon1/status/1402517894324527106?s=20

    Players’ Tribune do have some really good writers.

    The fans are still going to boo the players kneeling before the matches.
    ‘The’ fans, or some of the fans?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,419
    When you look at the heatmap of the age distribution for highly vaccinated, close to the virus epicentre Chorley

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=ltla&areaName=Chorley

    The case for trying to vaccinate everyone over 12 is overwhelming.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    I think our own @williamglenn predicted this.

    And you know the EU are about to table a concession when the bleating reaches crescendo levels.

    I've always said there's no solution to NI that didn't split the difference and that requires a special status for NI in the UK, and for Eire in the EU.
    As always, there needs to be a large piece of NI fudge eaten by all sides.

    The EU, who only understand rules and processes, really need to let RoI and UK come to an agreement. I get the feeling they’re still trying to hold out for some sort of ‘Dynamic Alignment’ on food standards, which is not going to happen in a month of Sundays.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,964
    moonshine said:

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    The bit I don’t understand is the at-odds briefings. “Harry spoke to his grandmother on the name beforehand”. Countered by “no he bloody didn’t”.
    "No he bloody didn't" is quite Elizabethan in its phrasing.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    The people who were going to set up an Independent Country in 18 months can't transfer powers they were given 5 years ago....for another 3 years:

    A senior SNP minister has blamed “technical challenges” for the Scottish government’s failure to take full control over devolved benefits as she demands more powers from Westminster.

    Shona Robison, who has pushed this week for Holyrood to have full command over employment rights, said that the snagging issues centred on the “safe and secure” transfer of data.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-blames-data-problems-for-failure-to-use-its-powers-fjcl6fqfr

    What is required up there is a proper incentive. 1. A second referendum producing a Yes vote; 2. A declaration from the remainder of the UK that we expect them to be gone in a year.

    The Scottish Government can get all of this sorted out if London is no longer willing to hold its hand. And if it can't, well, quite honestly, who gives a fuck?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    This one isn’t that perfect either.


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,743
    edited June 2021
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surely now we have to start looking at charging anyone for Covid treatment if they have had the opportunity to book a vaccine appointment and failed to do so?

    Because that’s almost the whole of the problem and would I guess go a long way towards solving it. Sure, you will always have principled refusers like Dura Ace, but for nutters like Contrarian, bleating about lockdown while forcing us into more of it, need to be warned that their stupidity and selfishness has real world consequences.

    @contrarian has not had the vaccine because he disagrees, on principle, with the state pressurising its citizens into a medical intervention (especially when the vaccines are so new). @Dura_Ace has not been vaccinated because he distrusts, and doesn't want to support, "Big Pharma".

    Just different principles surely? Are you sure that these two guys have fewer principles than the masses who have eagerly and meekly done what they have been told?
    No, Dura Ace hasn’t been vaccinated because the vaccine was tested on animals. That’s a perfectly valid stance, consistent with his longstanding veganism, and though I disagree with his conclusions I respect his consistency.

    The issue with Contrarian (well, among many other issues) is that he says nobody should be pressured to take the vaccine and then says nobody should have to lockdown, and lectures the rest of us on how he alone is standing up for our freedoms when taking the very action that’s making it impossible to get them back.

    Well, newsflash, it’s one or the other. His position is as grotesque and inconsistent as the Catholic ban on both contraception and abortion. And, further newsflash, it shows he’s not a principled person but a selfish prick (or perhaps, lack of prick :smile: ).

    Have a good morning.
    Blimey, I didn't know that and will keep it from my daughter.
    Vegans, and Greens, positions on animal testing is something has put me off voting for them until the last Co.Council elections.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,211

    Pulpstar said:

    My question is why has our vaccination rate dropped from two weeks back. If last week was a Bank Holiday and so people delaying jabs, this week should be a bonanza - but the rolling average is still dropping. What's going on

    Higher than last week, lower than the week before that, higher than the week before that and the week before that.

    Its been pretty steady but slowly increasing since Easter:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=overview&areaName=United Kingdom
    Malmesbury's 1st rule of COVID data analysis - There is always a cyclic effect, usually weekly, in all the data....
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,816
    DougSeal said:

    This one isn’t that perfect either.


    Would you prefer that to be happening in October ?

    Or with a variant that evades vaccines ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,743
    Sandpit said:

    Pretty remarkable that Gareth Southgate has hit upon a compelling narrative of progressive patriotism before Keir Starmer.

    https://twitter.com/anandMenon1/status/1402517894324527106?s=20

    Players’ Tribune do have some really good writers.

    The fans are still going to boo the players kneeling before the matches.
    'Some' fans are going to boo. Not all.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,728
    Sandpit said:

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    I think our own @williamglenn predicted this.

    And you know the EU are about to table a concession when the bleating reaches crescendo levels.

    I've always said there's no solution to NI that didn't split the difference and that requires a special status for NI in the UK, and for Eire in the EU.
    As always, there needs to be a large piece of NI fudge eaten by all sides.

    The EU, who only understand rules and processes, really need to let RoI and UK come to an agreement. I get the feeling they’re still trying to hold out for some sort of ‘Dynamic Alignment’ on food standards, which is not going to happen in a month of Sundays.
    It won't because the EU is always likely to be more protectionist on food standards, and I could see that divergence increasing with time.

    The obvious solution is to mitigate risk across GB-NI with no checks for non-contentious food products of very low risk and then do spot checks of the same arriving into continental Europe from Ireland to check nothing's leaching in.

    The British-Irish council should then discuss how things are done on the island of Ireland.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The independence promised to Scots in Indyref2 is likely to involve EU membership, and a new Scottish currency. On this prospectus, an independent Scotland – which we’ll call ‘ISCT’ – would mean a hard customs border with the remainder of the United Kingdom – which we’ll call New UK (NUK). The SNP’s protestations to the contrary are a variety of what Michel Barnier once described as ‘magical thinking’.....

    For ISCT, rejoining the EU Single Market, which in 2018 took less than 19% of Scottish exports, would mean leaving the UK’s single market, which in the same year took 60% of Scottish exports.


    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/customs-union-scotland-uk/
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    I still find it weird to see the contrasting perceptions of many European countries and America that the pandemic is largely over, whilst the U.K. has got a real problem - and reconcling that with stats on hospitalisations and deaths where the U.K. is clearly running at an order of 5-10 times lower than many other countries.

    Remember that deaths, especially, are a lagging indicator- they reflect the situation about a month ago.

    Also remember that direction not travel matters- high and falling is in some ways better than low and rising.
    But if a certain level of vaccine combined with loose restrictions is consistent with an “endemic” level of cases and deaths, then this is an issue of our numbers falling way below that as a result of full lockdown. So our cases/numbers may just be rising (and obviously this will happen rapidly) to the endemic level. Whereas other countries abandoning most restrictions when they are already at that level won’t experience that rise. And will experience a steady decline as vaccine levels increase. We will meet somewhere in the middle (or maybe we will never meet if our ultimate vax state is higher).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,172

    The people who were going to set up an Independent Country in 18 months can't transfer powers they were given 5 years ago....for another 3 years:

    A senior SNP minister has blamed “technical challenges” for the Scottish government’s failure to take full control over devolved benefits as she demands more powers from Westminster.

    Shona Robison, who has pushed this week for Holyrood to have full command over employment rights, said that the snagging issues centred on the “safe and secure” transfer of data.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-blames-data-problems-for-failure-to-use-its-powers-fjcl6fqfr

    What is required up there is a proper incentive. 1. A second referendum producing a Yes vote; 2. A declaration from the remainder of the UK that we expect them to be gone in a year.

    The Scottish Government can get all of this sorted out if London is no longer willing to hold its hand. And if it can't, well, quite honestly, who gives a fuck?
    Repeatedly saying who gives a fuck is a notably convincing way of indicating that one doesn’t give a fuck.
  • MattW said:

    Totally off-topical taste.


    I'm down to London next week for a couple of days - for the first time in over 15 months. (An in-the-room meeting with the animators for the first time.) Dinner booked at Hide.

    Is there anything on that is must-see at the mo?

    I'd enjoy a report on Hide.

    To each their own, of course. I love my fine dining, but judging by the pics I might privately go Jeremy Clarkson on them.

    To me the presentation has a for-instagram feel to it - like the shift from 'stripped out scandi' to 'urban hipster with textures' we have seen in interior decor over the last few years.



    Frankly I would punch someone in the face who served me such pretentious shite.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    alex_ said:

    I still find it weird to see the contrasting perceptions of many European countries and America that the pandemic is largely over, whilst the U.K. has got a real problem - and reconcling that with stats on hospitalisations and deaths where the U.K. is clearly running at an order of 5-10 times lower than many other countries.

    Remember that deaths, especially, are a lagging indicator- they reflect the situation about a month ago.

    Also remember that direction not travel matters- high and falling is in some ways better than low and rising.
    Not really that lagging. It's about 4-7 days for a symptomatic case to show up in the stats, another 5-8 days for that to develop into s hospitalisation and a further 8-20 days for that person to die or be discharged. On average, for older people, the average length of infection from detection to death was about 20 days and for younger people about 30 days.

    We're well past the stage where we'd be seeing that early case growth from Bolton spill over into hospitalisation and death rates, especially in older adults. It hasn't.

    The vaccines are doing their job and the alarmists and doom mongers are shifting the goal posts from needing lockdown measures to prevent an NHS catastrophe to eliminating COVID. The latter is simply not realistic but the former has already been achieved. There are just not enough unvaccinated over 50s to clog up hospitals now and those who haven't taken the vaccine chose not to. We can't make decisions based on vaccine refusers, they've made their decision and must live with the consequences.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited June 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    I think our own @williamglenn predicted this.

    And you know the EU are about to table a concession when the bleating reaches crescendo levels.

    I've always said there's no solution to NI that didn't split the difference and that requires a special status for NI in the UK, and for Eire in the EU.
    As always, there needs to be a large piece of NI fudge eaten by all sides.

    The EU, who only understand rules and processes, really need to let RoI and UK come to an agreement. I get the feeling they’re still trying to hold out for some sort of ‘Dynamic Alignment’ on food standards, which is not going to happen in a month of Sundays.
    Which is what Enda Kenny understood and started border talks between customs officials - which Varadkar scrapped.....because "the EU was going to fix it".....and Barnier was clear that Ireland was a pressure point in negotiations:

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1335006/Brexit-News-Michel-Barnier-BBC-audio-Boris-Johnson-Ireland-latest-news?jwsource=cl
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,313
    DougSeal said:

    Perfection isn’t really in sight at the moment


    Today, tomorrow and Friday's reports will be the acid test. Last Wednesday cases rose to ~4000 and then 5000 and 6000. Over the last few days we have been seeing 5-6000. If this continues, then we will be starting to see a levelling off on the weekly rate.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,743
    Sandpit said:

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    I think our own @williamglenn predicted this.

    And you know the EU are about to table a concession when the bleating reaches crescendo levels.

    I've always said there's no solution to NI that didn't split the difference and that requires a special status for NI in the UK, and for Eire in the EU.
    As always, there needs to be a large piece of NI fudge eaten by all sides.

    The EU, who only understand rules and processes, really need to let RoI and UK come to an agreement. I get the feeling they’re still trying to hold out for some sort of ‘Dynamic Alignment’ on food standards, which is not going to happen in a month of Sundays.
    Surely the problem is that the EU, including the RoI, thought they had an agreement with the UK. A difficult one, maybe but an agreement none-the-less.

    However, as usual with our current leadership it was ...... OK, is this it? Where do I sign?
    Followed later by "Read it; why should I have read it?"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,316
    .

    MattW said:

    Totally off-topical taste.


    I'm down to London next week for a couple of days - for the first time in over 15 months. (An in-the-room meeting with the animators for the first time.) Dinner booked at Hide.

    Is there anything on that is must-see at the mo?

    I'd enjoy a report on Hide.

    To each their own, of course. I love my fine dining, but judging by the pics I might privately go Jeremy Clarkson on them.

    To me the presentation has a for-instagram feel to it - like the shift from 'stripped out scandi' to 'urban hipster with textures' we have seen in interior decor over the last few years.



    Frankly I would punch someone in the face who served me such pretentious shite.
    Have you been there and done that ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Sandpit said:

    Pretty remarkable that Gareth Southgate has hit upon a compelling narrative of progressive patriotism before Keir Starmer.

    https://twitter.com/anandMenon1/status/1402517894324527106?s=20

    Players’ Tribune do have some really good writers.

    The fans are still going to boo the players kneeling before the matches.
    'Some' fans are going to boo. Not all.
    Fair point.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    DougSeal said:

    Perfection isn’t really in sight at the moment


    Today, tomorrow and Friday's reports will be the acid test. Last Wednesday cases rose to ~4000 and then 5000 and 6000. Over the last few days we have been seeing 5-6000. If this continues, then we will be starting to see a levelling off on the weekly rate.
    Wednesday tends to have a lot of backdating, I expect we'll see around 7-8k cases.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    Charles said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    10 cases not 6?

    In Surrey? Hardly. 550 cases this week (up 234). https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/health/surrey-covid-latest-case-rates-20770630
  • Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    The Irish have got to wonder which God they displeased to have ended up next-door to the English.
    I read something similar in a “Sharpe” book a while back.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    Why would they ask? :D Who cares man? This is ridiculous.
    Usually, unless the name in question is Adolf or Ikea, grandparents who don't like the name parents have given a child keep their opinion to themselves, unless they are arseholes. This is such an obvious rule of life it is weird how some people are siding with the grandparent on this. Meghan Derangement Syndrome?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Charles said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    10 cases not 6?

    In Surrey? Hardly. 550 cases this week (up 234). https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/health/surrey-covid-latest-case-rates-20770630
    How many resulting from testing of school children that happened this week but didn’t at half-term?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Sandpit said:

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    I think our own @williamglenn predicted this.

    And you know the EU are about to table a concession when the bleating reaches crescendo levels.

    I've always said there's no solution to NI that didn't split the difference and that requires a special status for NI in the UK, and for Eire in the EU.
    As always, there needs to be a large piece of NI fudge eaten by all sides.

    The EU, who only understand rules and processes, really need to let RoI and UK come to an agreement. I get the feeling they’re still trying to hold out for some sort of ‘Dynamic Alignment’ on food standards, which is not going to happen in a month of Sundays.
    Which is what Enda Kenny understood and started border talks between customs officials - which Varadkar scrapped.....because "the EU was going to fix it".....
    Indeed. The nature of the border should have been a separate discussion, as Kenny was attempting back in 2017.

    Varadkar and Barnier then decided to make it the centrepiece of the negotiations, and Barnier in particular used some quite offensive language, which came from a lack of understanding of the long history of the Province. No such excuses for Leo though.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137

    DougSeal said:

    Perfection isn’t really in sight at the moment


    Now show us the same graph for Bolton.

    Or to please Mike, Bedford.
    The exponential rate of growth is growing?

    Hmm. That doesn't fit unless i am getting wobbly with my maths yet again with Levitt's theory of Gompertz curve for covid outbreaks?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,728
    Here's the thing: you're never 100% sure it'll stay just a joke..


  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Perfection isn’t really in sight at the moment


    Today, tomorrow and Friday's reports will be the acid test. Last Wednesday cases rose to ~4000 and then 5000 and 6000. Over the last few days we have been seeing 5-6000. If this continues, then we will be starting to see a levelling off on the weekly rate.
    If I were to grasp at a straw, the rate of increase by specimen date in England does appear to be levelling off, but that depends on the rate of backfilling remaining constant.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,964

    MattW said:

    Totally off-topical taste.


    I'm down to London next week for a couple of days - for the first time in over 15 months. (An in-the-room meeting with the animators for the first time.) Dinner booked at Hide.

    Is there anything on that is must-see at the mo?

    I'd enjoy a report on Hide.

    To each their own, of course. I love my fine dining, but judging by the pics I might privately go Jeremy Clarkson on them.

    To me the presentation has a for-instagram feel to it - like the shift from 'stripped out scandi' to 'urban hipster with textures' we have seen in interior decor over the last few years.



    Frankly I would punch someone in the face who served me such pretentious shite.
    I wouldn't go quite that far :smile: , but I would love to hear the story they are telling.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,845
    edited June 2021
    Stocky said:

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    Your obsession is even more bonkers. I cannot recall you being anything like as angry over Prince Andrew who should be extradited.
    You don't think choosing Lillibet was deliberately provocative? Given the background of the Sussex's simultaneously attempting to relinquish their royal roles/duties and clinging on to being royals it is surely reasonable to harbour a suspicion that the name choice is entirely consistent with this aim.

    Mr Smithson is trying to draw the reader away from the subject . I expect a bar chart to appear any moment showing that 100% of Lib Dem MP's in a garden shed believe Prince Andrew should be extradited. I think that's a matter for the law actually.

    My point has always been that Harry assisted by Ms Markle has shat on their own doorstep and to me, that's unforgivable.

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited June 2021
    DougSeal said:

    Perfection isn’t really in sight at the moment


    I know that repeating this ad infinitum ain't going to change your mind one iota - the only thing that will do that is the passage of significant time without the prophesied disaster actually happening - but all of the evidence from the places where Delta has already got a grip so far suggests that it's not a major problem. Never mind the fact that cases in Bolton have peaked and gone into decline without placing significant stress on the local hospital: look at the example from Bedford that OGH has highlighted. I can't give up-to-date figures because the Covid website hasn't been updated very promptly, but on June 1st - that's two full months since the Indian Plague washed up on these shores - the total number of Covid patients in the hospitals of Bedfordshire (that's Bedford AND Luton put together) was 12, cases in Bedford Borough itself had already peaked and gone into decline, and there have still only been two deaths recorded since March 23rd. That, and one of the local schools had to shut down for a week.

    In short, the Delta Plague that has all these catastrophist, doom-mongering scientists screaming at any hack who will give them an airing (sadly all too many) has caused absolutely fuck all to go wrong in Bedford, and precious little trouble anywhere else. Moreover, even in areas that have had more hospital admissions than Bedford, the typical victim is younger, presenting with less serious symptoms and staying for a shorter period than was previously the case. There are very few patients ending up in intensive care and almost all of them are from amongst the increasingly small minority of the population that have failed to get themselves vaccinated despite having already had the offer, usually months ago (about whom, aside from the minuscule number who can't have the jab for sound medical reasons, precisely zero fucks should be given in any event.)

    Cases do not matter that much anymore if the link between cases and serious illness has been disrupted enough to avert another death tsunami. All the evidence suggests that it has. So we no longer need to care that much about cases. Yes, it will be much better for everyone when all adults have been offered their vaccines, because it will disrupt chains of transmission even more effectively and there will be far fewer individuals vulnerable to Long Covid symptoms as well - BUT the original justification for restrictions was that they were needed to spare the healthcare system from collapse, and nothing else. There is no danger of the healthcare system going down the tubes because there is no danger of cases getting so wildly out of control that it forces enough patients into the hospitals. Therefore, Covid-19 is finished as a national emergency. It really is time to stop panicking and let go of the security blanket.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    7m
    Nothing sums up Corbynism better than Corbynites fondly reminiscing about an election Jeremy Corbyn lost...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,316
    edited June 2021
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    I still find it weird to see the contrasting perceptions of many European countries and America that the pandemic is largely over, whilst the U.K. has got a real problem - and reconcling that with stats on hospitalisations and deaths where the U.K. is clearly running at an order of 5-10 times lower than many other countries.

    Remember that deaths, especially, are a lagging indicator- they reflect the situation about a month ago.

    Also remember that direction not travel matters- high and falling is in some ways better than low and rising.
    Not really that lagging. It's about 4-7 days for a symptomatic case to show up in the stats, another 5-8 days for that to develop into s hospitalisation and a further 8-20 days for that person to die or be discharged. On average, for older people, the average length of infection from detection to death was about 20 days and for younger people about 30 days.

    We're well past the stage where we'd be seeing that early case growth from Bolton spill over into hospitalisation and death rates, especially in older adults. It hasn't.

    The vaccines are doing their job and the alarmists and doom mongers are shifting the goal posts from needing lockdown measures to prevent an NHS catastrophe to eliminating COVID. The latter is simply not realistic but the former has already been achieved. There are just not enough unvaccinated over 50s to clog up hospitals now and those who haven't taken the vaccine chose not to. We can't make decisions based on vaccine refusers, they've made their decision and must live with the consequences.
    The vast majority of virologists are pretty sure that this coronavirus won't be eliminated - and will eventually add to the list of 'common cold' coronaviruses.

    As an aside, it does give you an idea of what happened to the indigenous Americans when they encountered a dozen or so novel to them (and their immune systems) viruses from the Old World...
    All at once.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,816
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    I still find it weird to see the contrasting perceptions of many European countries and America that the pandemic is largely over, whilst the U.K. has got a real problem - and reconcling that with stats on hospitalisations and deaths where the U.K. is clearly running at an order of 5-10 times lower than many other countries.

    Remember that deaths, especially, are a lagging indicator- they reflect the situation about a month ago.

    Also remember that direction not travel matters- high and falling is in some ways better than low and rising.
    Not really that lagging. It's about 4-7 days for a symptomatic case to show up in the stats, another 5-8 days for that to develop into s hospitalisation and a further 8-20 days for that person to die or be discharged. On average, for older people, the average length of infection from detection to death was about 20 days and for younger people about 30 days.

    We're well past the stage where we'd be seeing that early case growth from Bolton spill over into hospitalisation and death rates, especially in older adults. It hasn't.

    The vaccines are doing their job and the alarmists and doom mongers are shifting the goal posts from needing lockdown measures to prevent an NHS catastrophe to eliminating COVID. The latter is simply not realistic but the former has already been achieved. There are just not enough unvaccinated over 50s to clog up hospitals now and those who haven't taken the vaccine chose not to. We can't make decisions based on vaccine refusers, they've made their decision and must live with the consequences.
    Re vaccine refusers

    Its not as if they made their decision and cannot change their mind.

    All of them could get vaccinated anytime they want to but they continue to refuse.

    Though I suspect a few thousand have changed their minds in recent weeks.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,192
    edited June 2021
    IT question. If I wish to follow a link posted on here I right click it and select open in new tab.

    Today, the new tab opens with a warning headed Leaving, which says "You are now leaving politicalbetting. Click the link to continue to..." and I then have to click the link a second time to reach the intended page.

    It's happening in Firefox and Chrome. Possibly could be explained by a windows update has occurred in the last 24 hours, which audaciously added a News and Interests to my task bar.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,172
    The good kind of Islamic extremists that murder journalists, behead apostates & protestors and bomb civilians, the ones with money.

    https://twitter.com/fcdogovuk/status/1402268615571873793?s=21
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,728
    @ydoethur I think @Dura_Ace is a misanthrope who loves animals but hates people.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    Gadfly said:

    IT question. If I wish to follow a link posted on here I right click it and select open in new tab.

    Today, the new tab opens with a warning headed Leaving, which says You are now leaving politicalbetting. Click the link to continue to... and I then have to click the link a second time to reach the intended page.

    It's happening in Firefox and Chrome. Possibly could be explained by a windows update has occurred in the last 24 hours, which audaciously added a News and Interests to my task bar.

    The “leaving” page is a Vanilla Forums change, that happened a couple of days ago. Yes it’s annoying, and hopefully there’s a setting that @rcs1000 can change to make it go away.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    John Burn-Murdoch:

    Another lovely morning on Twitter being accused of simultaneously exaggerating the risk of Covid and downplaying it.

    Not sure whether it's more "Schrodinger's thread" or "the Rorschach thread".


    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1402532716847972354?s=20
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,192
    Sandpit said:

    Gadfly said:

    IT question. If I wish to follow a link posted on here I right click it and select open in new tab.

    Today, the new tab opens with a warning headed Leaving, which says You are now leaving politicalbetting. Click the link to continue to... and I then have to click the link a second time to reach the intended page.

    It's happening in Firefox and Chrome. Possibly could be explained by a windows update has occurred in the last 24 hours, which audaciously added a News and Interests to my task bar.

    The “leaving” page is a Vanilla Forums change, that happened a couple of days ago. Yes it’s annoying, and hopefully there’s a setting that @rcs1000 can change to make it go away.
    Thank you! I suspected it might be that, but couldn't find a setting. Hopefully Robert can fix it.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,845
    kamski said:

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    Why would they ask? :D Who cares man? This is ridiculous.
    Usually, unless the name in question is Adolf or Ikea, grandparents who don't like the name parents have given a child keep their opinion to themselves, unless they are arseholes. This is such an obvious rule of life it is weird how some people are siding with the grandparent on this. Meghan Derangement Syndrome?
    I think it would have been courteous to have asked, not to have asked just shows a lack of manners, most especially because it is Her Majesty.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,176
    Strong attack on Boris's character and integrity by Lord Barwell on R4 just now.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    alex_ said:

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    Why would a border between Ireland and the EU be any more “workable” than the border in the Irish Sea?

    Or is the theory that having two borders (one EU/Ireland, one in the Irish Sea) makes it easier to justify not enforcing serious controls for either?
    Either are workable it’s just the UK understands the sensitivity better than the EU (ex RoI) so is unwilling to inflame tensions in NI
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Varadkar.....lol....

    LONDON — EU officials and diplomats are discussing an emergency plan to solve the impasse over the Brexit settlement in Northern Ireland by restricting Ireland’s access to the bloc’s single market for goods.

    The idea, which is causing extreme anxiety in Dublin where officials see it as unfair punishment for its neighbor’s decision to Brexit, is meant as a backup plan to solve the conundrum of where to carry out vital checks on goods. These are designed to protect EU countries from food and plant diseases.

    That issue was meant to have been solved by the Northern Ireland protocol, a key part of the Brexit deal, but London is resisting implementing this part of the agreement which it claims is unworkable.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-diplomats-emergency-brexit-plan-ireland-uk-single-market-access/

    The Irish have got to wonder which God they displeased to have ended up next-door to the English.
    I read something similar in a “Sharpe” book a while back.
    Sharpe would probably trigger quite a few people thesedays, one for his rampant womanising (referred to as a 'reward' by Cornwell) and on the other side as most of his mates were scots, welsh, Irish or foreigners, with many English officers being villains, and despite being English he was not very patriotic, to the point he even settled in France after the war!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,419
    edited June 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    10 cases not 6?

    In Surrey? Hardly. 550 cases this week (up 234). https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/health/surrey-covid-latest-case-rates-20770630
    Those cases aren't translating into increased hospitalisations. If you get COVID, get some or no symptoms and don't need to go to hospital or use any NHS resources does it matter if you get it or not? That's the situation for 28m double jabbed people in groups 1-9 with that number growing by 450k per day on average. For groups 10-12 the risk is already extremely low (less than 1/4000) and that is reduced between 60-80% with just a single dose of Pfizer or Moderna 12 days post vaccine.

    Once again, no one can answer the question - exactly who is going to overwhelm the NHS? Which group of people will present an overwhelming number of cases to the NHS? It's not the 30m vaccinated old, it's not the young because most of the cases in young people were in groups 4 and 6 who have all been double jabbed. The only group left that is at risk are vaccine refusers. National policy cannot be crafted around people who have refused to help themselves.

    The risk is now all individual and we as individuals should be able to take that risk the same as someone climbing up a mountain or even just going for a drive.
    If you get COVID, get some or no symptoms and don't need to go to hospital or use any NHS resources does it matter if you get it or not?

    Actually this might be desirable - a soft case post virus & post vax your immunity will be up so if a nastier variant comes along then you'll have greater protection.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited June 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Strong attack on Boris's character and integrity by Lord Barwell on R4 just now.

    Colour me shocked...
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    The people who were going to set up an Independent Country in 18 months can't transfer powers they were given 5 years ago....for another 3 years:

    A senior SNP minister has blamed “technical challenges” for the Scottish government’s failure to take full control over devolved benefits as she demands more powers from Westminster.

    Shona Robison, who has pushed this week for Holyrood to have full command over employment rights, said that the snagging issues centred on the “safe and secure” transfer of data.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-blames-data-problems-for-failure-to-use-its-powers-fjcl6fqfr

    What is required up there is a proper incentive. 1. A second referendum producing a Yes vote; 2. A declaration from the remainder of the UK that we expect them to be gone in a year.

    The Scottish Government can get all of this sorted out if London is no longer willing to hold its hand. And if it can't, well, quite honestly, who gives a fuck?
    Repeatedly saying who gives a fuck is a notably convincing way of indicating that one doesn’t give a fuck.
    Entirely accurate in this case though. You go, we're rid of each other. Scotland inside the UK has to be looked after, Scotland outside the UK is no different to Denmark. If it has issues then they're for the people who live there to sort out, ultimately.
  • Nigelb said:

    .

    MattW said:

    Totally off-topical taste.


    I'm down to London next week for a couple of days - for the first time in over 15 months. (An in-the-room meeting with the animators for the first time.) Dinner booked at Hide.

    Is there anything on that is must-see at the mo?

    I'd enjoy a report on Hide.

    To each their own, of course. I love my fine dining, but judging by the pics I might privately go Jeremy Clarkson on them.

    To me the presentation has a for-instagram feel to it - like the shift from 'stripped out scandi' to 'urban hipster with textures' we have seen in interior decor over the last few years.



    Frankly I would punch someone in the face who served me such pretentious shite.
    Have you been there and done that ?
    I was once taken into a restaurant in Strasbourg (iirc) for a dinner meeting where I saw plates with such rubbish on. I walked out. Food is for eating. It is for sustenance, not for some clown to tell you how clever he is whilst picking your pocket.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,419
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    I still find it weird to see the contrasting perceptions of many European countries and America that the pandemic is largely over, whilst the U.K. has got a real problem - and reconcling that with stats on hospitalisations and deaths where the U.K. is clearly running at an order of 5-10 times lower than many other countries.

    Remember that deaths, especially, are a lagging indicator- they reflect the situation about a month ago.

    Also remember that direction not travel matters- high and falling is in some ways better than low and rising.
    Not really that lagging. It's about 4-7 days for a symptomatic case to show up in the stats, another 5-8 days for that to develop into s hospitalisation and a further 8-20 days for that person to die or be discharged. On average, for older people, the average length of infection from detection to death was about 20 days and for younger people about 30 days.

    We're well past the stage where we'd be seeing that early case growth from Bolton spill over into hospitalisation and death rates, especially in older adults. It hasn't.

    The vaccines are doing their job and the alarmists and doom mongers are shifting the goal posts from needing lockdown measures to prevent an NHS catastrophe to eliminating COVID. The latter is simply not realistic but the former has already been achieved. There are just not enough unvaccinated over 50s to clog up hospitals now and those who haven't taken the vaccine chose not to. We can't make decisions based on vaccine refusers, they've made their decision and must live with the consequences.
    The vast majority of virologists are pretty sure that this coronavirus won't be eliminated - and will eventually add to the list of 'common cold' coronaviruses.

    As an aside, it does give you an idea of what happened to the indigenous Americans when they encountered a dozen or so novel to them (and their immune systems) viruses from the Old World...
    All at once.
    novel That's the key word here. Why it is such a danger pre vax and so not post vax.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208

    kamski said:

    BBC R4 reporting Palace sources say the Sussexes did NOT consult the Queen over the use of Lilibet - contradicting claims from their “friends” that Harry had discussed it with her beforehand.

    At some point, the Sussexes and the Palace need to decide if they want to renormalise peaceful relations, or if they'd prefer this continued low-level bickering. A third choice would be simply to STFU.
    The Sussex's behaviour is bonkers. Seems therefore to use Lilibet was deeply offensive without asking first. They can call their child what they like but they lack manners in not having asked (if true)
    Why would they ask? :D Who cares man? This is ridiculous.
    Usually, unless the name in question is Adolf or Ikea, grandparents who don't like the name parents have given a child keep their opinion to themselves, unless they are arseholes. This is such an obvious rule of life it is weird how some people are siding with the grandparent on this. Meghan Derangement Syndrome?
    I think it would have been courteous to have asked, not to have asked just shows a lack of manners, most especially because it is Her Majesty.
    But, even if it is bad manners, which is worse manners? Not asking permission to use a name first, or letting the whole world know that you disapprove of the name the parents have given your grandchild?

    They are not even in the same league.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,236
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    Personally I think that we're running into trouble again - a view shared by several senior people in the borough with no axe to grind. The Surrey case rate is up 68% over last week (and nationally it's up 53%), and hospitalisations are rising too. This appears to be overwhelmingly younger, not fully vaccinated people, and a chunk of those are having serious problems. Compliance is finally crumbling as people have genuinely lost track of what the rules are.

    The hard-headed answer is to wait with relaxation, in particular international travel, until the great majority of adults (and IMO children too) have been vaccinated. After a period where the authorities got serious about the situation we have relapsed into vacillation.

    10 cases not 6?

    In Surrey? Hardly. 550 cases this week (up 234). https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/health/surrey-covid-latest-case-rates-20770630
    Those cases aren't translating into increased hospitalisations. If you get COVID, get some or no symptoms and don't need to go to hospital or use any NHS resources does it matter if you get it or not? That's the situation for 28m double jabbed people in groups 1-9 with that number growing by 450k per day on average. For groups 10-12 the risk is already extremely low (less than 1/4000) and that is reduced between 60-80% with just a single dose of Pfizer or Moderna 12 days post vaccine.

    Once again, no one can answer the question - exactly who is going to overwhelm the NHS? Which group of people will present an overwhelming number of cases to the NHS? It's not the 30m vaccinated old, it's not the young because most of the cases in young people were in groups 4 and 6 who have all been double jabbed. The only group left that is at risk are vaccine refusers. National policy cannot be crafted around people who have refused to help themselves.

    The risk is now all individual and we as individuals should be able to take that risk the same as someone climbing up a mountain or even just going for a drive.
    Given that the NHS wasn't overwhelmed pre-vaccine the chance of it being overwhelmed now is approximately zero.

    The reason for removing liberties has moved on from the justifiable overwhelming the health service concerns.

    The reasons for authoritarian measures has switched from "protecting the NHS" to "protecting Boris Johnson".
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,845
    IanB2 said:

    Strong attack on Boris's character and integrity by Lord Barwell on R4 just now.

    The enemy within....
This discussion has been closed.