"A lot of this is based on the assumption that the vaccinated can still spread COVID. This runs very much against the view of Prof Andrew Pollard, the director of the Oxford Vaccine Group at the University of Oxford."
People like Pollard must despair when people are incapable of understanding a straightforward statement.
The week involves pupils dressing up in red, white and blue and singing an “anthem” called “One Britain One Dream”, which ends with the repeating lines “Strong Britain Great Nation”.
Haha. What a load of shit.
Please tell me this is satire.
This course of patriotic song is standard fare in the US, Russia, China, even France.
Of course if it was belting out Flower of Scotland 5 times a day the SNP would have no complaints
And? Civus Britannicus sum. We don't do that sort of thing.
And 5x Flower of Scotland would require some serious anti-depressants.
We should do it more, we have far too many Scottish, Welsh and English national songs and not enough British national songs bar GSTQ which is more about the monarch than the nation and Rule Britannia which was more suitable for the age of Empire
When @Dura_Ace and I have the same instinctive view of things selling this is going to make Sisyphus's labours look like a gentle workout.
It does not need to be sold, the Tories have a majority of 80 and if they want to do it it will be done
Not by me.
If it becomes the law it will be required of every schoolchild across the UK
Do you have any idea how chilling (and how un-British) that statement is?
It is an utter disgrace and especially as he has recently been elected to office
There is nothing disgraceful about pledging allegiance to your nation and if you think there is you really should think about moving to the LDs as you are miles apart from the Boris led Tory Party I am a member of
It’s just not very British.
We should leave getting over-excited about things like that to lesser nations.
We could start the day with a collective grumble about everything that has gone wrong since yesterday; that would be the British way.
Our national motto: “not too bad thanks, all things considered”. We all instantly understand that “all things” are terrible, and need to be debated at length.
This is where Danny Boyle went wrong, not realising that his job was actually to produce a ceremony that was a bit shit, to keep us stocked up with collective grumbles for the rest of that year.
Indeed. My thoughts with PBers when the weather starts to improve from tomorrow. I mean, what's Leon going to do with himself?
Argue that the better weather is down to the aliens?
I increasingly feel that many of the self-styled British Patriots of the Tory right don't really want us to be Britain. They want us to be America. Or their idealised, Anglo-Saxon GOP voting version of America.
The week involves pupils dressing up in red, white and blue and singing an “anthem” called “One Britain One Dream”, which ends with the repeating lines “Strong Britain Great Nation”.
Haha. What a load of shit.
Please tell me this is satire.
This course of patriotic song is standard fare in the US, Russia, China, even France.
Of course if it was belting out Flower of Scotland 5 times a day the SNP would have no complaints
No, not the US, unless you’re conflating reciting the Pledge of Allegiance which is done at the start of the school day pretty much everywhere, with singing patriotic songs. In fact here it’s pretty unusual to sing the national anthem (as opposed to standing while someone sings it), probably because it’s so difficult for people who aren’t trained singers to sing.
I learnt to play that tune on the tin whistle and it's a tricky thing. Lots of high notes. Though the Hedwig theme is probably harder.
Its origin, hilariously, is as a mid-18th century British drinking song!
The week involves pupils dressing up in red, white and blue and singing an “anthem” called “One Britain One Dream”, which ends with the repeating lines “Strong Britain Great Nation”.
Haha. What a load of shit.
Please tell me this is satire.
This course of patriotic song is standard fare in the US, Russia, China, even France.
Of course if it was belting out Flower of Scotland 5 times a day the SNP would have no complaints
And? Civus Britannicus sum. We don't do that sort of thing.
And 5x Flower of Scotland would require some serious anti-depressants.
We should do it more, we have far too many Scottish, Welsh and English national songs and not enough British national songs bar GSTQ which is more about the monarch than the nation and Rule Britannia which was more suitable for the age of Empire
When @Dura_Ace and I have the same instinctive view of things selling this is going to make Sisyphus's labours look like a gentle workout.
It does not need to be sold, the Tories have a majority of 80 and if they want to do it it will be done
Not by me.
If it becomes the law it will be required of every schoolchild across the UK
Do you have any idea how chilling (and how un-British) that statement is?
It is an utter disgrace and especially as he has recently been elected to office
There is nothing disgraceful about pledging allegiance to your nation and if you think there is you really should think about moving to the LDs as you are miles apart from the Boris led Tory Party I am a member of
I think it's children benig forced to pledge allegiance that people find chilling, rather than pledging allegiance, which all are free to do at any time.
Unless it is compulsory there is little point to it, it has to be universal to be effective and entrench loyalty to the nation from an early stage
I think you’ve pushed the facist Tory parody a bit too far this time. Roll it back or people will realise you’re not for real.
There is nothing fascist here, it is something most of the Red Wall Tory vote would be behind
I can assure you the average worker in the street whether north , south , east or west will mock this with the scorn and ridicule it deserves. Take your facism and shove it quite frankly. The state belongs to us not us to the state.
Unfortunately that's not the UK doctrine, which is that we are subjects of HMtQ, not citizens who hold sovereignty (except, interestingly, in Scots law).
I increasingly feel that many of the self-styled British Patriots of the Tory right don't really want us to be Britain. They want us to be America. Or their idealised, Anglo-Saxon GOP voting version of America.
I increasingly feel that many of the self-styled British Patriots of the Tory right don't really want us to be Britain. They want us to be America. Or their idealised, Anglo-Saxon GOP voting version of America.
Are you referring to anyone other than HYUFD?
And be fair, HYUFD doesn't want us to be America alone. He also wants us to be Spain and China too.
The week involves pupils dressing up in red, white and blue and singing an “anthem” called “One Britain One Dream”, which ends with the repeating lines “Strong Britain Great Nation”.
Haha. What a load of shit.
I never thought our descent into fascism would be so cringe-worthy.
I agree. I don't see the problem with Land of Hope and Glory.
"Wider Still and Wider shall thy bounds be set ..." isn't very woke in this age of anti-colonialism.
I don't care, but others probably would.
Who knows the words to Land of Hope and Glory? It's a decent enough tune but I have no idea what it's lyrics are beyond the title. Jerusalem and the Welsh song are the only decent national anthem contenders really, the others are all crap although Rule Britannia is the only one I actively hate.
Too bad as it's the one I like the most, especially its tune and its anti-slavery message.
The week involves pupils dressing up in red, white and blue and singing an “anthem” called “One Britain One Dream”, which ends with the repeating lines “Strong Britain Great Nation”.
Haha. What a load of shit.
I never thought our descent into fascism would be so cringe-worthy.
I agree. I don't see the problem with Land of Hope and Glory.
"Wider Still and Wider shall thy bounds be set ..." isn't very woke in this age of anti-colonialism.
I don't care, but others probably would.
Who knows the words to Land of Hope and Glory? It's a decent enough tune but I have no idea what it's lyrics are beyond the title. Jerusalem and the Welsh song are the only decent national anthem contenders really, the others are all crap although Rule Britannia is the only one I actively hate.
Too bad as it's the one I like the most, especially its tune and its anti-slavery message.
It is pro slavery, except for Britons.
Which of its words support slavery for non-Britons?
Just because Britons deserve to be free, it doesn't mean that other countries don't.
If you refuse the jab, and then get seriously ill from Covid19, you should be left to die, not given a bed by the NHS. Why do the rest of us have to pay for their stupidity several times over?
The week involves pupils dressing up in red, white and blue and singing an “anthem” called “One Britain One Dream”, which ends with the repeating lines “Strong Britain Great Nation”.
Haha. What a load of shit.
Please tell me this is satire.
This course of patriotic song is standard fare in the US, Russia, China, even France.
Of course if it was belting out Flower of Scotland 5 times a day the SNP would have no complaints
And? Civus Britannicus sum. We don't do that sort of thing.
And 5x Flower of Scotland would require some serious anti-depressants.
We should do it more, we have far too many Scottish, Welsh and English national songs and not enough British national songs bar GSTQ which is more about the monarch than the nation and Rule Britannia which was more suitable for the age of Empire
When @Dura_Ace and I have the same instinctive view of things selling this is going to make Sisyphus's labours look like a gentle workout.
It does not need to be sold, the Tories have a majority of 80 and if they want to do it it will be done
Not by me.
If it becomes the law it will be required of every schoolchild across the UK
Do you have any idea how chilling (and how un-British) that statement is?
Nothing chilling about it, US schoolchildren have recited a pledge of allegiance to the nation every morning for generations
It is optional though. The First Amendment does not simply guarantee free speech, it also prevents the state from imposing speech. That said, the peer pressure on children to partake is considerable.
I suspect the European Convention on Human Rights would similarly require any such pledge or song in the UK as being similarly optional, and I could see an argument to the European Court that pressure to conform could make the mere existence of such a pledge/song contrary to the Convention.
Of course, the UK could ultimately withdraw from the Convention. which would be its sovereign right. It would find itself in a pretty exclusive club with, er, Belarus as a result. Perhaps Boris could go full Lukashenko and start to hijack airliners too.
I increasingly feel that many of the self-styled British Patriots of the Tory right don't really want us to be Britain. They want us to be America. Or their idealised, Anglo-Saxon GOP voting version of America.
Are you referring to anyone other than HYUFD?
And be fair, HYUFD doesn't want us to be America alone. He also wants us to be Spain and China too.
I'm thinking of a number of MPs to be honest. People like Owen Paterson with his Oklahoma cattle industry visit.
The week involves pupils dressing up in red, white and blue and singing an “anthem” called “One Britain One Dream”, which ends with the repeating lines “Strong Britain Great Nation”.
Haha. What a load of shit.
I never thought our descent into fascism would be so cringe-worthy.
I agree. I don't see the problem with Land of Hope and Glory.
"Wider Still and Wider shall thy bounds be set ..." isn't very woke in this age of anti-colonialism.
I don't care, but others probably would.
Who knows the words to Land of Hope and Glory? It's a decent enough tune but I have no idea what it's lyrics are beyond the title. Jerusalem and the Welsh song are the only decent national anthem contenders really, the others are all crap although Rule Britannia is the only one I actively hate.
Too bad as it's the one I like the most, especially its tune and its anti-slavery message.
I think its anti slavery message extends only to the question of enslaving Britons. At the time (1740) Britain was a leading player in the Atlantic slave trade, probably the greatest crime in human history. It's that hypocrisy that I dislike in particular.
Anyway. It's definitely what people voted for in the referendum.
...
As ever though, you miss the point. I may dislike some of what is now being done and may be done in the medium term, but we are free of the EU and a future Government can change anything it wants. Nothing is permanent and the “ratchet effect” is gone from our lives.
We were always free to do as we wanted, and usually did. Just like the 27 other sovereign countries in the EU. Yet again you are assuming that the majority in 2016 was enormous, when it was barely 3.5%.
Free to do anything we wanted, but had to leave first in order to do it. Unless you think the EU rules and regs are meaningless?
The week involves pupils dressing up in red, white and blue and singing an “anthem” called “One Britain One Dream”, which ends with the repeating lines “Strong Britain Great Nation”.
Haha. What a load of shit.
I never thought our descent into fascism would be so cringe-worthy.
I agree. I don't see the problem with Land of Hope and Glory.
"Wider Still and Wider shall thy bounds be set ..." isn't very woke in this age of anti-colonialism.
I don't care, but others probably would.
Who knows the words to Land of Hope and Glory? It's a decent enough tune but I have no idea what it's lyrics are beyond the title. Jerusalem and the Welsh song are the only decent national anthem contenders really, the others are all crap although Rule Britannia is the only one I actively hate.
Too bad as it's the one I like the most, especially its tune and its anti-slavery message.
Scrolling yesterday's threads I learn that @Topping and I were born in the same road in London - Avenue Road. Probably at the same clinic - long since gone
Totally irrelevant fact of the day.
Still cold here - though no rain. Am a bit fed up now with this. The garden has been watered plenty thanks. Gardening in horizontal wind and rain is no fun. A bit of warmth would do my roses, clematis - and me - the world of good. All we get is sun occasionally but no warmth. Enough already.
You'll just have to make do with the red-haired Laird until then....
Be still my beating heart ............
With this weather I'll need to wrap myself in tartan blankets and drink whisky just to stay alive never mind doing anything more exciting.
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Evan McMullin and Miles Taylor are longtime Republicans who have served at high levels of government. Writing in The Economist, they say they are “alarmed at the GOP’s turn away from truth and decency”https://econ.st/3yyZfDA
Scrolling yesterday's threads I learn that @Topping and I were born in the same road in London - Avenue Road. Probably at the same clinic - long since gone
Totally irrelevant fact of the day.
Still cold here - though no rain. Am a bit fed up now with this. The garden has been watered plenty thanks. Gardening in horizontal wind and rain is no fun. A bit of warmth would do my roses, clematis - and me - the world of good. All we get is sun occasionally but no warmth. Enough already.
You'll just have to make do with the red-haired Laird until then....
Be still my beating heart ............
With this weather I'll need to wrap myself in tartan blankets and drink whisky just to stay alive never mind doing anything more exciting.
I’ve forgotten what warm weather is like. We have just endured eight months of winter, in essence
I never thought our descent into fascism would be so cringe-worthy.
I agree. I don't see the problem with Land of Hope and Glory.
"Wider Still and Wider shall thy bounds be set ..." isn't very woke in this age of anti-colonialism.
I don't care, but others probably would.
Who knows the words to Land of Hope and Glory? It's a decent enough tune but I have no idea what it's lyrics are beyond the title. Jerusalem and the Welsh song are the only decent national anthem contenders really, the others are all crap although Rule Britannia is the only one I actively hate.
Too bad as it's the one I like the most, especially its tune and its anti-slavery message.
I think its anti slavery message extends only to the question of enslaving Britons. At the time (1740) Britain was a leading player in the Atlantic slave trade, probably the greatest crime in human history. It's that hypocrisy that I dislike in particular.
Slavery was normal throughout all of history. The Bible is riddled with slavery references. Slavery existed in every Empire before the British one.
The anti-slavery movement and the abolition of slavery is one of the greatest gifts to human history that came from Britain.
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ. Ephesians 6:5
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
If you look at how chimney-sweep boys or child miners in England were treated in the 18th century, it's not a great deal better than Carribbean slavery and with terrible death rates too.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
Evan McMullin and Miles Taylor are longtime Republicans who have served at high levels of government. Writing in The Economist, they say they are “alarmed at the GOP’s turn away from truth and decency”https://econ.st/3yyZfDA
And one day, Tories will do the same
One day? A lot of what the GOP are currently doing can be seen in the Tories current playbook...
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yep it's advice. Let's hope there isn't a clarification to save face.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Guidance for now.
But who knows Gove and the PM might change the law and not tell anyone.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
The Prime Minister said all this on 14 December to be fair too.
Which makes the delay for putting the guidance online by a week then slipping it out without further announcement all the more weird.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
Evan McMullin and Miles Taylor are longtime Republicans who have served at high levels of government. Writing in The Economist, they say they are “alarmed at the GOP’s turn away from truth and decency”https://econ.st/3yyZfDA
And one day, Tories will do the same
One day? A lot of what the GOP are currently doing can be seen in the Tories current playbook...
Yes
One day, Tories will say they are “alarmed at the ... turn away from truth and decency”
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
Scrolling yesterday's threads I learn that @Topping and I were born in the same road in London - Avenue Road. Probably at the same clinic - long since gone
Totally irrelevant fact of the day.
Still cold here - though no rain. Am a bit fed up now with this. The garden has been watered plenty thanks. Gardening in horizontal wind and rain is no fun. A bit of warmth would do my roses, clematis - and me - the world of good. All we get is sun occasionally but no warmth. Enough already.
You'll just have to make do with the red-haired Laird until then....
Be still my beating heart ............
With this weather I'll need to wrap myself in tartan blankets and drink whisky just to stay alive never mind doing anything more exciting.
I’ve forgotten what warm weather is like. We have just endured eight months of winter, in essence
It’s the end of May and our central heating is still on !
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Evan McMullin and Miles Taylor are longtime Republicans who have served at high levels of government. Writing in The Economist, they say they are “alarmed at the GOP’s turn away from truth and decency”https://econ.st/3yyZfDA
And one day, Tories will do the same
One day? A lot of what the GOP are currently doing can be seen in the Tories current playbook...
Yes
One day, Tories will say they are “alarmed at the ... turn away from truth and decency”
Some of us said it in the summer of 2019.
David Herdson summed it up perfectly, Boris Johnson as PM would do unconservative things and that's why we had to bail out of the party we were members for so long.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I probably should have more sympathy for Nadia Whittome than I do but she's always appeared too immature to represent her constituents. Posh school, job at some quango, few weeks in a care home to line the CV, off to be emplpyed by the remain campaign and then off into parliament at 23 years old where she appears to spend much of her day on social media spouting 'comrades this' or 'solidarity that'. I wouldn't fancy her to put in the hard yards for me on local issues.
if she's already burned out at 24 with PTSD then she perhaps should consider a different career.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
So long as its unenforced.
EG
"We advise people to get vaccinated" "We advise people who haven't been vaccinated yet to be careful" etc
Just watching Burnham's GM Mayor briefing (Sky News now live), which included the Tory Leader of Bolton Council speaking. Both firmly of the view, and Bolton Leader has been told by Govt colleagues, that this is just guidance, isn't binding, doesn't = local lockdown by stealth.
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
Guess the quote time, is this Oliver Dowden culture warring away in the Telegraph or some neo Nazi politician in Germany?
X said '(we) are the only people in the world who plant a monument of shame in the heart of the capital' and criticized this 'laughable policy of coming to terms with the past'. He continued that 'we' should make a '180 degree' turn with regard to our sense of national pride.
The fact that London hasn't done much in the way of putting up monuments to the shame of slavery is pretty much a clue.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
So long as its unenforced.
EG
"We advise people to get vaccinated" "We advise people who haven't been vaccinated yet to be careful" etc
If it is to be enforced, then there needs to be a legal mechanism to enforce it. Otherwise it is just the government talking - hence, advice.
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
I'm not averse to countries apologising for atrocities etc which they may have been part of in the past, but I would just mention 2 things:
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
Mr. Boy, learning from the past is great. It allows us to profit from the lesson without paying for the tutelage. What I object to is twofold:
1) Imposing guilt on the present for the sins (true or false) of the past. 2) A false reading of history to make the UK seem uniquely wicked.
I do not subscribe to your view that the trans-Atlantic slave trade was the worst thing in human history (2).
I don't agree with (1) or (2) either. I feel absolutely no guilt about slavery and nor should you. I don't feel we are uniquely wicked, either with respect to the slave trade or anything else. Others were arguably bigger players in the slave trade than we were, and were more exploitative imperialists. We have lots to be proud about in our history. But I will never seek to minimise the bad things we did, or resort to whataboutery. And I think if we are open and honest about our history then we need to ask some questions about why some historical figures are still venerated and privileged by having their lives honoured by prominent statues when they were really really bad people whose actions led to the death and misery of millions.
The caterpillar cakes are different because it's every shop having their own brand cake - which is useful as they are a gauge as to how the store sees themselves in the market.
But ripping off a branded product is an especially in cases like this one is completely not fair game - although Brewdog have done a decent job handling Aldi...
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I think it would be fine for the government to have advice beyond June 21st but there needs to be a rebasing and explanation about advice vs legal restrictions.
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Just watching Burnham's GM Mayor briefing (Sky News now live), which included the Tory Leader of Bolton Council speaking. Both firmly of the view, and Bolton Leader has been told by Govt colleagues, that this is just guidance, isn't binding, doesn't = local lockdown by stealth.
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
By this data: https://coviddatashare.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/TableCumulative_Rate_20210524.html it looks to me like the peak in Bolton has already passed - likewise Blackburn and Bedford. Others less clear - Rossendale looks to be ramping up a bit. But no clear signs to me, yet, that everwhere will follow Bolton's trajectory. I remain optimistic that we're already past the worst.
Note that most data gives you a seven day average figure, up to a few days ago. This is laudable, as it smooths out noise and also ignores days with significantly incomplete data - but it does mean that any data you see is effectively at least a week out of date already.
Mr. Boy, I'd be interested to know how far back you'd go with that. Living memory would be my instinctive approach to this sort of thing. How would you handle Caesar, who massacred a tribe (NB including women and children) of Thuringii during peace talks in... 53 BC (I think)?
I'm not an especial fan of Caesar, certainly not compared to Mr. Eagles, but I don't think that incident should be the prism through which he is viewed, just one of numerous significant events and decisions that he was involved in.
Although we disagree on some things you do seem reasonable, but many who bang on about this are not. They're iconoclasts, revisionists, and sometimes outright racists. With that in mind, I hope you forgive me if I seemed a little sharp in response.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
The Prime Minister said all this on 14 December to be fair too.
Which makes the delay for putting the guidance online by a week then slipping it out without further announcement all the more weird.
A further problem is that Johnson has lost all credibility. Does anybody believe a word he says?
Although my mind drifts towards Chinese concentration camps while leaders wibbled about 'never again' during Holocaust Memorial events.
Melos....
As one of my relatives said that "Never Again" mean, to him "Jews should always have nuclear weapons. Because nuclear weapons make our problems, everyones problem."
All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
The Prime Minister said all this on 14 December to be fair too.
Which makes the delay for putting the guidance online by a week then slipping it out without further announcement all the more weird.
A further problem is that Johnson has lost all credibility. Does anybody believe a word he says?
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I think it would be fine for the government to have advice beyond June 21st but there needs to be a rebasing and explanation about advice vs legal restrictions.
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
Absolutely.
I have been flabbergasted by the willingness, nay, desire, with which many of our countrymen seem to have embraced extraordinary regulation of our fundamental liberties over the past 14 months.
I think that's correlated with the general point that it's prudent to have enough in hand to deal with 2nd jabs coming up in the near future, combined with the recent contraction in the period between jabs 1 and 2 to speed things up generally (as I foiund the other week in my case). The difference sounds about the right magnitude.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I think it would be fine for the government to have advice beyond June 21st but there needs to be a rebasing and explanation about advice vs legal restrictions.
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
Absolutely.
I have been flabbergasted by the willingness, nay, desire, with which many of our countrymen seem to have embraced extraordinary regulation of our fundamental liberties over the past 14 months.
It needs to end.
The government may not have wanted this but the ball came loose from the back of the scrum and boy have they picked it up and run with it.
Anyway. It's definitely what people voted for in the referendum.
...
As ever though, you miss the point. I may dislike some of what is now being done and may be done in the medium term, but we are free of the EU and a future Government can change anything it wants. Nothing is permanent and the “ratchet effect” is gone from our lives.
We were always free to do as we wanted, and usually did. Just like the 27 other sovereign countries in the EU. Yet again you are assuming that the majority in 2016 was enormous, when it was barely 3.5%.
Free to do anything we wanted, but had to leave first in order to do it. Unless you think the EU rules and regs are meaningless?
What is there that I can do now that I could not do when we were in the EU? I cannot think of anything.
Different for Johnson and his chums, since they have managed to abolish a lot of our rights, and they and their chums can now ride roughshod over the rest of us. Starting with concreting over the countryside and making a profit out of it..
Regardless of what it's 'for' there can be little doubt it's a big ole' hoax. I believe you were asking in the other thread how Obama, a former CIA head etc., could be 'fooled'. They couldn't be 'fooled', but they certainly are singers in the US establishment choir who will pipe up every time there's a buzz issue to be publicised for a purpose. This happens at all sorts of times for all sorts of reasons, usually requiring some sort of expansion of state power. I recall 'bullying' being all the buzz with the Obama set 5 or 10 years ago. Nobody mentions bullying now.
I literally cringe at the thought of 'the big reveal'. It is going to be pure Hollywood schmaltz minus Judi Dench or Iain McKellen to try and give it some gravitas. It'll be about as believable as The Avengers Assemble.
Just watching Burnham's GM Mayor briefing (Sky News now live), which included the Tory Leader of Bolton Council speaking. Both firmly of the view, and Bolton Leader has been told by Govt colleagues, that this is just guidance, isn't binding, doesn't = local lockdown by stealth.
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
Its pretty clear that the messaging over this has been catastrophically bad. However I think people are going to have to get used to taking responsibility for their own actions in the very near future, and for some that is rather scary. Heavy rain on the motorway, speed limit stays at 70 mph, but you really should take care and reduce your speed. That's obvious. Post 21st June, cases a bit high in your area, maybe think twice about what you do, but it won't be illegal. Fine, lets get on with it. I am happy to wait 4 more weeks, as this gives the majority a chance of the first dose at least, and all who are vulnerable will be double vaccinated. That was always the priority - protect those most at risk. We cannot carry on forever in a half-life.
Just watching Burnham's GM Mayor briefing (Sky News now live), which included the Tory Leader of Bolton Council speaking. Both firmly of the view, and Bolton Leader has been told by Govt colleagues, that this is just guidance, isn't binding, doesn't = local lockdown by stealth.
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
By this data: https://coviddatashare.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/TableCumulative_Rate_20210524.html it looks to me like the peak in Bolton has already passed - likewise Blackburn and Bedford. Others less clear - Rossendale looks to be ramping up a bit. But no clear signs to me, yet, that everwhere will follow Bolton's trajectory. I remain optimistic that we're already past the worst.
Note that most data gives you a seven day average figure, up to a few days ago. This is laudable, as it smooths out noise and also ignores days with significantly incomplete data - but it does mean that any data you see is effectively at least a week out of date already.
We will know more after todays update, I think.
I agree on Bolton and Blackburn and Bedford - conditional on the update. There are a few little bumps further down the table, which will bear watching.
The real question for me, is the trajectory of hospitalisations -
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
I'm not averse to countries apologising for atrocities etc which they may have been part of in the past, but I would just mention 2 things:
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
All that's fine if we didn't have a culture that enthusiastically celebrates Great British Achievements of 100 or 200 or 300 years ago, or that time Alfred the Great had a satisfactory bowel movement after beating back the Danes.
Just watching Burnham's GM Mayor briefing (Sky News now live), which included the Tory Leader of Bolton Council speaking. Both firmly of the view, and Bolton Leader has been told by Govt colleagues, that this is just guidance, isn't binding, doesn't = local lockdown by stealth.
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
Its pretty clear that the messaging over this has been catastrophically bad. However I think people are going to have to get used to taking responsibility for their own actions in the very near future, and for some that is rather scary. Heavy rain on the motorway, speed limit stays at 70 mph, but you really should take care and reduce your speed. That's obvious. Post 21st June, cases a bit high in your area, maybe think twice about what you do, but it won't be illegal. Fine, lets get on with it. I am happy to wait 4 more weeks, as this gives the majority a chance of the first dose at least, and all who are vulnerable will be double vaccinated. That was always the priority - protect those most at risk. We cannot carry on forever in a half-life.
Catastrophically bad? Has there been a catastrophe then?
There is definitely a bit of hyperbole about this.
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
I'm not averse to countries apologising for atrocities etc which they may have been part of in the past, but I would just mention 2 things:
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
All that's fine if we didn't have a culture that enthusiastically celebrates Great British Achievements of 100 or 200 or 300 years ago, or that time Alfred the Great had a satisfactory bowel movement after beating back the Danes.
For some reason you didn't mention Scotland's orgasms over William Wallace or Bannockburn?
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I think it would be fine for the government to have advice beyond June 21st but there needs to be a rebasing and explanation about advice vs legal restrictions.
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
Absolutely.
I have been flabbergasted by the willingness, nay, desire, with which many of our countrymen seem to have embraced extraordinary regulation of our fundamental liberties over the past 14 months.
It needs to end.
Probably it could end right now and the reality on the ground would be very little different, yet we'd be freed of the bossy-breeches laws, leaving much of it down to personal responsibility.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
The Prime Minister said all this on 14 December to be fair too.
Which makes the delay for putting the guidance online by a week then slipping it out without further announcement all the more weird.
A further problem is that Johnson has lost all credibility. Does anybody believe a word he says?
Apart from HY, of course....
BluestBlue doesn't believe what he says, but provided it doesn't lose him votes he is ok with it.
Regardless of what it's 'for' there can be little doubt it's a big ole' hoax. I believe you were asking in the other thread how Obama, a former CIA head etc., could be 'fooled'. They couldn't be 'fooled', but they certainly are singers in the US establishment choir who will pipe up every time there's a buzz issue to be publicised for a purpose. This happens at all sorts of times for all sorts of reasons, usually requiring some sort of expansion of state power. I recall 'bullying' being all the buzz with the Obama set 5 or 10 years ago. Nobody mentions bullying now.
I literally cringe at the thought of 'the big reveal'. It is going to be pure Hollywood schmaltz minus Judi Dench or Iain McKellen to try and give it some gravitas. It'll be about as believable as The Avengers Assemble.
Yes, my central assumption is that this is some kind of psy-ops, perhaps exploiting a subset of true believers in the Pentagon, intel etc
However there are enough anomalies that I cannot be certain
Mr. Boy, I'd be interested to know how far back you'd go with that. Living memory would be my instinctive approach to this sort of thing. How would you handle Caesar, who massacred a tribe (NB including women and children) of Thuringii during peace talks in... 53 BC (I think)?
I'm not an especial fan of Caesar, certainly not compared to Mr. Eagles, but I don't think that incident should be the prism through which he is viewed, just one of numerous significant events and decisions that he was involved in.
Although we disagree on some things you do seem reasonable, but many who bang on about this are not. They're iconoclasts, revisionists, and sometimes outright racists. With that in mind, I hope you forgive me if I seemed a little sharp in response.
No forgiveness necessary. It's an interesting question. Personally I would have a very high bar for removing statues. I think it's a question of weighing up the positives and negatives, and you'd need to see the negatives outweighing the positives by a wide margin before acting. Churchill is the obvious kind of figure that would not make the cut for removal. Equally a slave trader doesn't seem to me someone that a society that is knowledgeable about its history would want to see honoured in its Town centres. I see little in Rhodes' history that merits his prominent position on an Oxford college, either. Since Caesar was an aggressive foreign invader I'm not sure we should be having a statue of him anyway (do we have one? I have no idea). I am guessing if I were Italian I wouldn't be calling for his statue to be removed.
Just watching Burnham's GM Mayor briefing (Sky News now live), which included the Tory Leader of Bolton Council speaking. Both firmly of the view, and Bolton Leader has been told by Govt colleagues, that this is just guidance, isn't binding, doesn't = local lockdown by stealth.
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
By this data: https://coviddatashare.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/TableCumulative_Rate_20210524.html it looks to me like the peak in Bolton has already passed - likewise Blackburn and Bedford. Others less clear - Rossendale looks to be ramping up a bit. But no clear signs to me, yet, that everwhere will follow Bolton's trajectory. I remain optimistic that we're already past the worst.
Note that most data gives you a seven day average figure, up to a few days ago. This is laudable, as it smooths out noise and also ignores days with significantly incomplete data - but it does mean that any data you see is effectively at least a week out of date already.
Interesting stats. What is clear is that there is no logic to some of the 8 areas now under stealth lockdown "guidance" - some are only 16th on the list (N Tyneside) whereas others high up this list (Rossendale, Hyndburn, Manchester) aren't subject to guidance at all despite being worse affected than some of the authorities who are?
Who updated this "guidance" on Friday, the work experience lad?
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
I'm not averse to countries apologising for atrocities etc which they may have been part of in the past, but I would just mention 2 things:
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
All that's fine if we didn't have a culture that enthusiastically celebrates Great British Achievements of 100 or 200 or 300 years ago, or that time Alfred the Great had a satisfactory bowel movement after beating back the Danes.
For some reason you didn't mention Scotland's orgasms over William Wallace or Bannockburn?
I find nowadays that it's people like you that endlessly mention William Wallace and Bannockburn, which lo and behold, you have done. Perhaps we should draw a veil over whether you orgasm or not.
It is ironic that "Britons Never Shall be Slaves", which in the 19th century was somtimes used by radical movements against slavery and for workers' rights, is now regarded as unforgivably oppressive, and that a hymn to freedom should be seen as, by implication, supporting enslavement.
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
I'm not averse to countries apologising for atrocities etc which they may have been part of in the past, but I would just mention 2 things:
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
All that's fine if we didn't have a culture that enthusiastically celebrates Great British Achievements of 100 or 200 or 300 years ago, or that time Alfred the Great had a satisfactory bowel movement after beating back the Danes.
For some reason you didn't mention Scotland's orgasms over William Wallace or Bannockburn?
I find nowadays that it's people like you that endlessly mention William Wallace and Bannockburn, which lo and behold, you have done. Perhaps we should draw a veil over whether you orgasm or not.
Likewise, the only person I recall on this site mentioning Alfred the Great is you.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I think it would be fine for the government to have advice beyond June 21st but there needs to be a rebasing and explanation about advice vs legal restrictions.
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
Absolutely.
I have been flabbergasted by the willingness, nay, desire, with which many of our countrymen seem to have embraced extraordinary regulation of our fundamental liberties over the past 14 months.
It needs to end.
Probably it could end right now and the reality on the ground would be very little different, yet we'd be freed of the bossy-breeches laws, leaving much of it down to personal responsibility.
Totally. I have an event in July that would just be so much easier if all the public health laws are gone.
It would be totally legal to do now. But onerous! The economy will surely go gangbusters when all these artificial checks on growth are removed....
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I think it would be fine for the government to have advice beyond June 21st but there needs to be a rebasing and explanation about advice vs legal restrictions.
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
Absolutely.
I have been flabbergasted by the willingness, nay, desire, with which many of our countrymen seem to have embraced extraordinary regulation of our fundamental liberties over the past 14 months.
It needs to end.
What flabbergasts me is when people who have spent to the past year pouring a reservoir of scorn on anybody who even questioned the orthodoxy of lockdown, self isolation, furlough, masks and vaccination say 'it needs to end'
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
I'm not averse to countries apologising for atrocities etc which they may have been part of in the past, but I would just mention 2 things:
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
All that's fine if we didn't have a culture that enthusiastically celebrates Great British Achievements of 100 or 200 or 300 years ago, or that time Alfred the Great had a satisfactory bowel movement after beating back the Danes.
For some reason you didn't mention Scotland's orgasms over William Wallace or Bannockburn?
Perhaps because there aren't any. It's quite a difference, for instance when someone vandalised the Bruce statue at Bannockburn the response was 'meh'. And that was the height of the statue wars.
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
I'm not averse to countries apologising for atrocities etc which they may have been part of in the past, but I would just mention 2 things:
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
All that's fine if we didn't have a culture that enthusiastically celebrates Great British Achievements of 100 or 200 or 300 years ago, or that time Alfred the Great had a satisfactory bowel movement after beating back the Danes.
For some reason you didn't mention Scotland's orgasms over William Wallace or Bannockburn?
Perhaps because there aren't any. It's quite a difference, for instance when someone vandalised the Bruce statue at Bannockburn the response was 'meh'. And that was the height of the statue wars.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I think it would be fine for the government to have advice beyond June 21st but there needs to be a rebasing and explanation about advice vs legal restrictions.
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
Absolutely.
I have been flabbergasted by the willingness, nay, desire, with which many of our countrymen seem to have embraced extraordinary regulation of our fundamental liberties over the past 14 months.
It needs to end.
What flabbergasts me is when people who have spent to the past year pouring a reservoir of scorn on anybody who even questioned the orthodoxy of lockdown, self isolation, furlough, masks and vaccination say 'it needs to end'
But there it is.
However, for much of that period much of the scorn was totally necessary. And indeed any opposition to the one policy that removes the need for all the others, vaccination, deems anti-vaxxers worthy of continual scorn in my eyes.
Just watching Burnham's GM Mayor briefing (Sky News now live), which included the Tory Leader of Bolton Council speaking. Both firmly of the view, and Bolton Leader has been told by Govt colleagues, that this is just guidance, isn't binding, doesn't = local lockdown by stealth.
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
Its pretty clear that the messaging over this has been catastrophically bad. However I think people are going to have to get used to taking responsibility for their own actions in the very near future, and for some that is rather scary. Heavy rain on the motorway, speed limit stays at 70 mph, but you really should take care and reduce your speed. That's obvious. Post 21st June, cases a bit high in your area, maybe think twice about what you do, but it won't be illegal. Fine, lets get on with it. I am happy to wait 4 more weeks, as this gives the majority a chance of the first dose at least, and all who are vulnerable will be double vaccinated. That was always the priority - protect those most at risk. We cannot carry on forever in a half-life.
Catastrophically bad? Has there been a catastrophe then?
There is definitely a bit of hyperbole about this.
Ask yourself who the message was meant for and if the message reached them. In my view if completely failed to do so - a catastrophic fail of the messaging. If you think the messaging was ok and successful feel free to disagree, but I don't.
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
I'm not averse to countries apologising for atrocities etc which they may have been part of in the past, but I would just mention 2 things:
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
All that's fine if we didn't have a culture that enthusiastically celebrates Great British Achievements of 100 or 200 or 300 years ago, or that time Alfred the Great had a satisfactory bowel movement after beating back the Danes.
For some reason you didn't mention Scotland's orgasms over William Wallace or Bannockburn?
Perhaps because there aren't any. It's quite a difference, for instance when someone vandalised the Bruce statue at Bannockburn the response was 'meh'. And that was the height of the statue wars.
It is ironic that "Britons Never Shall be Slaves", which in the 19th century was somtimes used by radical movements against slavery and for workers' rights, is now regarded as unforgivably oppressive, and that a hymn to freedom should be seen as, by implication, supporting enslavement.
In history, it is very common that ideas and laws about equality *caused* change when the inconsistency between the words and the current state of society became an issue.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - signed with a notable breach of the words in the actions of many that signed. But later became a rallying cry of the anti-slavery movement.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I think it would be fine for the government to have advice beyond June 21st but there needs to be a rebasing and explanation about advice vs legal restrictions.
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
Absolutely.
I have been flabbergasted by the willingness, nay, desire, with which many of our countrymen seem to have embraced extraordinary regulation of our fundamental liberties over the past 14 months.
It needs to end.
We had a little reminder with the amber list of one of the reasons we got here.
In the beginning, the government gave advice telling people to avoid crowds, and not to go to places like pubs to reduce transmission.
The businesses complained that the government was trashing their business, but because they weren't ordered to close they couldn't claim on their business interruption insurance. So the government used the law to close these businesses.
Then these businesses complained that they were closed, but people were buying alcohol from off licenses and partying at each other's homes. So the government asked everyone not to visit each other.
So the police complained that they had no legal power to prevent parties in private houses, and everyone was aghast at the behaviour of other people. So we now have the absurd situation of a government regulating whether people can visit private residences.
This shows the problem with not having consistent principles, but instead bowing to the latest pressure.
Regardless of what it's 'for' there can be little doubt it's a big ole' hoax. I believe you were asking in the other thread how Obama, a former CIA head etc., could be 'fooled'. They couldn't be 'fooled', but they certainly are singers in the US establishment choir who will pipe up every time there's a buzz issue to be publicised for a purpose. This happens at all sorts of times for all sorts of reasons, usually requiring some sort of expansion of state power. I recall 'bullying' being all the buzz with the Obama set 5 or 10 years ago. Nobody mentions bullying now.
I literally cringe at the thought of 'the big reveal'. It is going to be pure Hollywood schmaltz minus Judi Dench or Iain McKellen to try and give it some gravitas. It'll be about as believable as The Avengers Assemble.
Yes, my central assumption is that this is some kind of psy-ops, perhaps exploiting a subset of true believers in the Pentagon, intel etc
However there are enough anomalies that I cannot be certain
We can be certain enough that if it were real, we wouldn't be hearing about it.
Mr. Boy, slavery was endemic in Africa at the time. And Arabia. And continued elsewhere after we stopped it.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
Why are you so afraid of addressing bad things we did in the past? It isn't a reflection on us personally. It doesn't affect the pride we can take in the good things we did. It's just a question of being honest. The fact is that Britain built its wealth and power over the course of a couple of hundred years off the back of African Labour in the new world, a trade in human misery that we were active participants in. It's just laughable that people act so defensively whenever anyone brings it up or suggests minor acts of remembrance (like no longer venerating slave traders).
I'm not averse to countries apologising for atrocities etc which they may have been part of in the past, but I would just mention 2 things:
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
All that's fine if we didn't have a culture that enthusiastically celebrates Great British Achievements of 100 or 200 or 300 years ago, or that time Alfred the Great had a satisfactory bowel movement after beating back the Danes.
For some reason you didn't mention Scotland's orgasms over William Wallace or Bannockburn?
Perhaps because there aren't any. It's quite a difference, for instance when someone vandalised the Bruce statue at Bannockburn the response was 'meh'. And that was the height of the statue wars.
BBC North West Today news just on now explained how the local lockdown cock-up came to light - a pub landlord in Bolton stumbled across the new guidance yesterday, emailed BBC North West who then looked into it and broke the story on their late news bulletin last night.
Increasing confusion, anger and upset now in the affected areas. Reports of hoteliers in the Lakes now getting calls from guests in Burnley, Blackburn etc saying "can we still come?, do we have to cancel?" etc and not having the faintest idea what they should be saying or doing.
How long can the Govt go on just doing nothing about this? It's staggering!
An acquaintance has gone to see her parents in East Anglia for the first time in over a year. Now she has no idea whether she should be returning to Hounslow or not. All most bizarre.
It makes South West Railways' job a tad more difficult as their passengers might be criminalised in the course of getting from London to Weybridge.
Isn't it guidance?
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
Yeah, I think the bad thing this time is it wasn't really announced. Having guidance that says in hot spot areas it is recommended to minimise social interaction wherever possible seems sensible enough to me.
It is interesting to see how people *want* advice to be legal restrictions.
I'm sure very few people want that. Everyone, meanwhile, wants clarity and an adherence to the previously stated parameters for lockdown.
Setting aside the confusion/coms nonsense - do you think the government should have *advice* going beyond 21st June, for example?
I think it would be fine for the government to have advice beyond June 21st but there needs to be a rebasing and explanation about advice vs legal restrictions.
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
Absolutely.
I have been flabbergasted by the willingness, nay, desire, with which many of our countrymen seem to have embraced extraordinary regulation of our fundamental liberties over the past 14 months.
It needs to end.
What flabbergasts me is when people who have spent to the past year pouring a reservoir of scorn on anybody who even questioned the orthodoxy of lockdown, self isolation, furlough, masks and vaccination say 'it needs to end'
Just watching Burnham's GM Mayor briefing (Sky News now live), which included the Tory Leader of Bolton Council speaking. Both firmly of the view, and Bolton Leader has been told by Govt colleagues, that this is just guidance, isn't binding, doesn't = local lockdown by stealth.
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
Its pretty clear that the messaging over this has been catastrophically bad. However I think people are going to have to get used to taking responsibility for their own actions in the very near future, and for some that is rather scary. Heavy rain on the motorway, speed limit stays at 70 mph, but you really should take care and reduce your speed. That's obvious. Post 21st June, cases a bit high in your area, maybe think twice about what you do, but it won't be illegal. Fine, lets get on with it. I am happy to wait 4 more weeks, as this gives the majority a chance of the first dose at least, and all who are vulnerable will be double vaccinated. That was always the priority - protect those most at risk. We cannot carry on forever in a half-life.
Catastrophically bad? Has there been a catastrophe then?
There is definitely a bit of hyperbole about this.
Ask yourself who the message was meant for and if the message reached them. In my view if completely failed to do so - a catastrophic fail of the messaging. If you think the messaging was ok and successful feel free to disagree, but I don't.
Its not great, but I can understand why they have done it. Imagine if three coach loads of people from the worst affected area in Bolton went to the Isle of Wight for a holiday and spread the Indian variant there. The Government would be massively criticised by exactly the people now criticising them for the advice.
They clearly do not want to introduce local lockdowns but want to put it in writing that they do not want people from the worst affected areas to travel round the country.
Just watching Burnham's GM Mayor briefing (Sky News now live), which included the Tory Leader of Bolton Council speaking. Both firmly of the view, and Bolton Leader has been told by Govt colleagues, that this is just guidance, isn't binding, doesn't = local lockdown by stealth.
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
By this data: https://coviddatashare.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/TableCumulative_Rate_20210524.html it looks to me like the peak in Bolton has already passed - likewise Blackburn and Bedford. Others less clear - Rossendale looks to be ramping up a bit. But no clear signs to me, yet, that everwhere will follow Bolton's trajectory. I remain optimistic that we're already past the worst.
Note that most data gives you a seven day average figure, up to a few days ago. This is laudable, as it smooths out noise and also ignores days with significantly incomplete data - but it does mean that any data you see is effectively at least a week out of date already.
Interesting stats. What is clear is that there is no logic to some of the 8 areas now under stealth lockdown "guidance" - some are only 16th on the list (N Tyneside) whereas others high up this list (Rossendale, Hyndburn, Manchester) aren't subject to guidance at all despite being worse affected than some of the authorities who are?
Who updated this "guidance" on Friday, the work experience lad?
It was supposedly due to the incidence of the Indian variant, but BBC had a map with a lot of these areas only having a handful of cases and being in the same band as many other places, but things may have developed since then.
In Kirklees, rates have consistently struggled to come down since February - I suspect of anywhere in the UK we may have fewest days with 7DRA below 50 (perhaps Derry & Blackburn competing for that, but I suspect they're behind) and it was pretty distributed around hotspots across the whole borough till a few days ago, when one Dewsbury area showed its spike. I suspect we have a little way to go up before we go down, but it's a mix of lagging on the downswing and newly emerging hotspots round here.
Comments
I should cancel now shouldn't I? Especially as the other person I'm going with is from Greater Manchester.
People like Pollard must despair when people are incapable of understanding a straightforward statement.
And be fair, HYUFD doesn't want us to be America alone. He also wants us to be Spain and China too.
Just because Britons deserve to be free, it doesn't mean that other countries don't.
I suspect the European Convention on Human Rights would similarly require any such pledge or song in the UK as being similarly optional, and I could see an argument to the European Court that pressure to conform could make the mere existence of such a pledge/song contrary to the Convention.
Of course, the UK could ultimately withdraw from the Convention. which would be its sovereign right. It would find itself in a pretty exclusive club with, er, Belarus as a result. Perhaps Boris could go full Lukashenko and start to hijack airliners too.
Off to @Chris for some education.
With this weather I'll need to wrap myself in tartan blankets and drink whisky just to stay alive never mind doing anything more exciting.
A fetish for self-flagellation is not something I find appealing.
Oh, and, of course, we've got the tens of millions Stalin imprisoned and slaughtered, the Holocaust, Mao's epic death toll, Roman slavery. And the Aztec sacrifices.
And one day, Tories will do the same
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2021csoh55.pdf?sfvrsn=0
The anti-slavery movement and the abolition of slavery is one of the greatest gifts to human history that came from Britain.
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ. Ephesians 6:5
Sounds like leaving it up to individuals to me. Good.
But it's a blatant attempt to pass off - attached to a 60% price increase...
But who knows Gove and the PM might change the law and not tell anyone.
Which makes the delay for putting the guidance online by a week then slipping it out without further announcement all the more weird.
Mad conspiracy theorists think the conspiracy theory about aliens is a conspiracy to stop them talking about another, different conspiracy
‘QAnon Crowd Convinced UFOs Are a Diversion From Voter Fraud thedailybeast.com/qanon-crowd-co… via @thedailybeast’
https://twitter.com/micalizio333/status/1397178184165052423?s=21
One day, Tories will say they are “alarmed at the ... turn away from truth and decency”
This is interesting ...
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/04/caterpillar-cakes-compared-which-supermarket-came-out-on-top/
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/15/ms-takes-aldi-to-court-over-colin-the-caterpillar-look-alike-cake
David Herdson summed it up perfectly, Boris Johnson as PM would do unconservative things and that's why we had to bail out of the party we were members for so long.
1) Imposing guilt on the present for the sins (true or false) of the past.
2) A false reading of history to make the UK seem uniquely wicked.
I do not subscribe to your view that the trans-Atlantic slave trade was the worst thing in human history (2).
I wouldn't fancy her to put in the hard yards for me on local issues.
if she's already burned out at 24 with PTSD then she perhaps should consider a different career.
EG
"We advise people to get vaccinated"
"We advise people who haven't been vaccinated yet to be careful"
etc
So basically, ignore.
It does need clearing up, and quickly, because it is an utter shambles. Burnham quite measured and mature about it all actually.
Picture does look grim in Bolton though. The worst affected bits are barely 2 miles from where i live (in the borough next door). It does worry me where we'll be up here in a month's time.
X said '(we) are the only people in the world who plant a monument of shame in the heart of the capital' and criticized this 'laughable policy of coming to terms with the past'. He continued that 'we' should make a '180 degree' turn with regard to our sense of national pride.
The fact that London hasn't done much in the way of putting up monuments to the shame of slavery is pretty much a clue.
Although my mind drifts towards Chinese concentration camps while leaders wibbled about 'never again' during Holocaust Memorial events.
1) I'm not sure why the average guy in the street should feel guilty about it, no-one alive today was aroound 200 years ago. That goes for companies as well.
2) The other countries in the world need to accept their part in it (including European, US, Asian and African countries) and act accordingly. Us remainers are always told to "move on" after 5 years, but for God sake even I would move on after 200 years.
But I will never seek to minimise the bad things we did, or resort to whataboutery. And I think if we are open and honest about our history then we need to ask some questions about why some historical figures are still venerated and privileged by having their lives honoured by prominent statues when they were really really bad people whose actions led to the death and misery of millions.
But ripping off a branded product is an especially in cases like this one is completely not fair game - although Brewdog have done a decent job handling Aldi...
More interesting than the headline this week - the gap between allocated and delivered just narrowed.
Scotland have been very slow about pulling in their doses; they've been leaving 12-14 days of doses lying around. They just took that down to 10.
https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1397182723840675843?s=20
People should be free to go to the pub in swimming trunks or full Hazmat protective gear. It should be up to the the pub and the punters, in that order. The government is more than welcome to say "if you go to the pub in Bolton please be aware of the current incidence of Covid, and here are the measures which will allow you to protect yourself" and then leave it to the peeps.
Of course this begs the bigger question of how long we will or should get case/death/hospitalisation stats. Not sure the answer to that but once we are in a "steady state" then those should go also.
https://coviddatashare.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/TableCumulative_Rate_20210524.html
it looks to me like the peak in Bolton has already passed - likewise Blackburn and Bedford. Others less clear - Rossendale looks to be ramping up a bit. But no clear signs to me, yet, that everwhere will follow Bolton's trajectory.
I remain optimistic that we're already past the worst.
Note that most data gives you a seven day average figure, up to a few days ago. This is laudable, as it smooths out noise and also ignores days with significantly incomplete data - but it does mean that any data you see is effectively at least a week out of date already.
I'm not an especial fan of Caesar, certainly not compared to Mr. Eagles, but I don't think that incident should be the prism through which he is viewed, just one of numerous significant events and decisions that he was involved in.
Although we disagree on some things you do seem reasonable, but many who bang on about this are not. They're iconoclasts, revisionists, and sometimes outright racists. With that in mind, I hope you forgive me if I seemed a little sharp in response.
Apart from HY, of course....
As one of my relatives said that "Never Again" mean, to him "Jews should always have nuclear weapons. Because nuclear weapons make our problems, everyones problem."
All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again.
I have been flabbergasted by the willingness, nay, desire, with which many of our countrymen seem to have embraced extraordinary regulation of our fundamental liberties over the past 14 months.
It needs to end.
Different for Johnson and his chums, since they have managed to abolish a lot of our rights, and they and their chums can now ride roughshod over the rest of us. Starting with concreting over the countryside and making a profit out of it..
I literally cringe at the thought of 'the big reveal'. It is going to be pure Hollywood schmaltz minus Judi Dench or Iain McKellen to try and give it some gravitas. It'll be about as believable as The Avengers Assemble.
I agree on Bolton and Blackburn and Bedford - conditional on the update. There are a few little bumps further down the table, which will bear watching.
The real question for me, is the trajectory of hospitalisations -
There is definitely a bit of hyperbole about this.
@amandamilling: "I would like to apologise to anyone who has been hurt by discriminatory behaviour of others or failed by our system"
https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1397186241754542086?s=20
However there are enough anomalies that I cannot be certain
It's an interesting question. Personally I would have a very high bar for removing statues. I think it's a question of weighing up the positives and negatives, and you'd need to see the negatives outweighing the positives by a wide margin before acting. Churchill is the obvious kind of figure that would not make the cut for removal. Equally a slave trader doesn't seem to me someone that a society that is knowledgeable about its history would want to see honoured in its Town centres. I see little in Rhodes' history that merits his prominent position on an Oxford college, either.
Since Caesar was an aggressive foreign invader I'm not sure we should be having a statue of him anyway (do we have one? I have no idea). I am guessing if I were Italian I wouldn't be calling for his statue to be removed.
Who updated this "guidance" on Friday, the work experience lad?
It would be totally legal to do now. But onerous! The economy will surely go gangbusters when all these artificial checks on growth are removed....
But there it is.
SNP MP calls for #Eurovision to let Scotland enter separately from the UK
https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1397182247350976518?s=20
However, for much of that period much of the scorn was totally necessary. And indeed any opposition to the one policy that removes the need for all the others, vaccination, deems anti-vaxxers worthy of continual scorn in my eyes.
And you still haven't explained why you want to deport Quaker children for not swearing loyalty every morning.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - signed with a notable breach of the words in the actions of many that signed. But later became a rallying cry of the anti-slavery movement.
In the beginning, the government gave advice telling people to avoid crowds, and not to go to places like pubs to reduce transmission.
The businesses complained that the government was trashing their business, but because they weren't ordered to close they couldn't claim on their business interruption insurance. So the government used the law to close these businesses.
Then these businesses complained that they were closed, but people were buying alcohol from off licenses and partying at each other's homes. So the government asked everyone not to visit each other.
So the police complained that they had no legal power to prevent parties in private houses, and everyone was aghast at the behaviour of other people. So we now have the absurd situation of a government regulating whether people can visit private residences.
This shows the problem with not having consistent principles, but instead bowing to the latest pressure.
Next.
(Not aimed at you personally)
They clearly do not want to introduce local lockdowns but want to put it in writing that they do not want people from the worst affected areas to travel round the country.
@ganeshran
Today is the highest ever report for a Monday (reported on Tuesday).
Previous high was 440K on 15th of March
In Kirklees, rates have consistently struggled to come down since February - I suspect of anywhere in the UK we may have fewest days with 7DRA below 50 (perhaps Derry & Blackburn competing for that, but I suspect they're behind) and it was pretty distributed around hotspots across the whole borough till a few days ago, when one Dewsbury area showed its spike. I suspect we have a little way to go up before we go down, but it's a mix of lagging on the downswing and newly emerging hotspots round here.