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Choosing Jo Cox’s sister might just be enough to save Labour’s bacon in Batley and Spen – politicalb

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  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Sandpit, aye, not arguing with that. Red Bull need to sort out how they treat drivers who aren't Verstappen.

    Mr. L, Bottas has, I think, been on the podium every time he's finished this year.

    Hamilton and Verstappen are going to push one another either all season long or until a mid-season regulation change shafts one team.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,298

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,872
    edited May 2021
    The social deprivation maps are a fantastic piece of work by the ONS.

    The problem with the London maps is that they are down to LSOA level (not street level), which is about 1700 people. Even at that level, the data is not fine-grained enough to capture the stark difference between Avenue Road and the neighbouring estates.

    I live in one of the most “deprived” LSOAs in Hackney, but that’s because it largely captures the sink estate to my south.

    Is anyone else aware of a metro that so closely intertwines wealth and poverty, as London does?

    Even better than the deprivation map is one looking at income and productivity, accessible via a link from the deprivation map.

    If you read the whole thing, there is an implicit conclusion that Scotland, Wales, the North and the Midlands (the not-South) are effectively economic colonies of the South, in that Southerners income is higher than productivity suggests it should be, whereas the reverse is true in the not-South.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    I know that rule very well. As they have done with Jo Cox's sister the CLP will have had the regional director waive the rule to put the chosen candidate. We did the same in Stockton for a by-election to replace a very popular local councillor who died with his daughter.

    She got slaughtered.
    I just don't think that people are nearly as sentimental about this kind of thing as politicians like to think. The delusion, I think, is that we care about our politicians at all or can even remember their names most of the time. She may well be a good candidate on her own merits but this Jo Cox thing is barely worth a mention.

    This seat should be really close. Whether the Heavy Woollens get back from Sebastopol in time to put up a candidate may well be decisive.
    Labour must be hoping they do. It's their best chance...
    Agreed. The other problem from their point of view are the Greens who are polling better and better and could well bleed away a few thousand from Labour if they stand.
    Which they should. If the Greens want to be taken seriously they need to contest as many elections as they possibly can, even if the result is that Labour is crippled and more Tories win by coming through the middle.

    The German Greens did not overhaul the SPD by mithering on about progressive alliances.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,047

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    Cheer up. The LD's will either win or almost do so in C&A, thus reviving attention and interest.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,141
    Mercedes mood after Monaco 'lower than a snake's belly' -Allison http://reut.rs/2QLpvJM https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1396926525757345796/photo/1
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,310
    DavidL said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    I know that rule very well. As they have done with Jo Cox's sister the CLP will have had the regional director waive the rule to put the chosen candidate. We did the same in Stockton for a by-election to replace a very popular local councillor who died with his daughter.

    She got slaughtered.
    I just don't think that people are nearly as sentimental about this kind of thing as politicians like to think. The delusion, I think, is that we care about our politicians at all or can even remember their names most of the time. She may well be a good candidate on her own merits but this Jo Cox thing is barely worth a mention.

    This seat should be really close. Whether the Heavy Woollens get back from Sebastopol in time to put up a candidate may well be decisive.
    It will be closer than Pools was, but I still expect a Tory win. Reasons:
    Significant Heavy Woollens vote last time. Those people are classic stereotype white working class no to pikeys/forrins/muslims who will vote Tory.
    UKIP vote will go Tory
    Labour campaign will be tone deaf and shit
    Tory campaign will be sunny uplands and opportunity.

    My mate in nearby Mirfield wasn't remotely surprised to see the Tory gains in that part of Yorkshire in 2019 and there is a reasonable long-established Tory foothold outside the big towns.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    The answer is staring at you in the face in Caerdydd.

    UK Labour need the Drake.

    Memo to UK Labour: For a hot property like the Drake -- move fast & sign him up..

    (We will have to ensure emergency medical equipment is at hand in Llandudno when @Big_G_NorthWales hears the Drake is heading up the whole of Labour, and not just its dodgy Welsh sub-office).
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,295
    edited May 2021
    "Pressed on whether she was "nervous" about the Prime Minister's former aide Dominic Cummings appearing before MPs on Wednesday, Work and Pensions Secretary Therese Coffey told LBC radio: "I'm not nervous at all. "

    Telegraph live blog

    :lol: Of course Coffey isn't nervous, she's the one of very few Cabinet ministers who hasn't made a f up during this crisis. Must be due for promotion if someone senior falls.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,298

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
    No it's not. Determined to hold onto Scotland, stifle a United Ireland? Both these issues have one goal, namely to preserve Johnson's reputation as a champion of the Unuion.When he leaves, the Union can go hang.

    To work!
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,310
    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    Cheer up. The LD's will either win or almost do so in C&A, thus reviving attention and interest.
    Unlikely. Cheryl Gillan was sitting on a 16k majority and 55% of the total vote, and this is 2021 not 1993.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,295
    Based on the anonymous quotes in this piece, Gove is virtually the Varys of Downing Street!!


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/24/coup-conspiracy-tories-sense-shapeshifter-gove-dominic-cummings/
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,059

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "They’ll kill me, terrified Roman Protasevich told Ryanair flight crew" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theyll-kill-me-terrified-roman-protasevich-told-ryanair-flight-crew-rb0mxg3vm

    This is real news, unlike the Prince Harry / Martin Bashir / Meghan Markle stuff that we keep having to listen to.

    Harry and Megan will be coming along soon to tell you why their suffering and grief is more intense than Roman's
    Isnt the modern thing to dramatically emote about the suffering of others to draw attention to yourself?

    I think dislike of that may even unite wokesters and antiwokesters to some degree (eg against the stereotype of the famous rich white people lecturing while holding a sick African child)
    It’s the self-centred narcissism that really annoys people, when we see those for whom everything always has to be about themselves.

    At a time when there’s a load of genuine suffering going on in the world, hearing someone going on about how awful their life is, from their huge mansion, just grates with the public. Especially when he’s seemingly getting a massive cheque for doing his therapy sessions in public.
    So far as I can see the only people banging on about H and M are the haters...
    Do they actually have any sort of fan-base (in the UK)?
    @Foxy is right that H&M get the oxygen of publicity mostly from people who dislike then. If they didn't get the press, I suspect they'd probably disappear...
  • Options
    MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    So I see that now that Leicester has had one week of freedom after 14 months or so of severe restrictions the government is gearing up to reverse on that. I don't live in any of the areas with the new guidance, but it's making me feel a bit ill all the same. Adds to the feeling that this will never end. Particularly once I'd been vaccinated, I would be struggling to feel any moral obligation to comply with restrictions going forward.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,295

    So the 'Don't go to Kirklees etc' advice came out on Friday but the government didn't bother to let anyone know.

    Total incompetence.

    It would be laugh out loud funny if it all wasn't so serious. Straight out of The Thick of It.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,197
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "They’ll kill me, terrified Roman Protasevich told Ryanair flight crew" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theyll-kill-me-terrified-roman-protasevich-told-ryanair-flight-crew-rb0mxg3vm

    This is real news, unlike the Prince Harry / Martin Bashir / Meghan Markle stuff that we keep having to listen to.

    Harry and Megan will be coming along soon to tell you why their suffering and grief is more intense than Roman's
    Isnt the modern thing to dramatically emote about the suffering of others to draw attention to yourself?

    I think dislike of that may even unite wokesters and antiwokesters to some degree (eg against the stereotype of the famous rich white people lecturing while holding a sick African child)
    It’s the self-centred narcissism that really annoys people, when we see those for whom everything always has to be about themselves.

    At a time when there’s a load of genuine suffering going on in the world, hearing someone going on about how awful their life is, from their huge mansion, just grates with the public. Especially when he’s seemingly getting a massive cheque for doing his therapy sessions in public.
    So far as I can see the only people banging on about H and M are the haters...
    Do they actually have any sort of fan-base (in the UK)?
    @Foxy is right that H&M get the oxygen of publicity mostly from people who dislike then. If they didn't get the press, I suspect they'd probably disappear...
    I think that's true to a point.

    But there is absolutely no need for the BBC to give them as much air time:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cjnwl8q4xxlt/prince-harry-duke-of-sussex
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,843
    I do think replacing regulation by guidance is a correct way to go, now is the time for what we perceive as 'The Swedish Approach'. As Harry Potter might say, now is the time for Advisio Boltonian. But to think it unproblematic would be wrong.

    For instance, making local guidance areas could put a target on their back. In terms of foreign travel, countries could readily ban someone from these areas entering (note: and they could claim justification - the mix of the infection rate in a UK area combined with the vaccination progress of that country locally would be the correct mix of considerations - once you are out of the UK there are more unvaccinated that you can infect). Or domestic rental holiday homes might say, 'aren't you supposed to be staying local' and cancel (and re-let) bookings. I'm fully expecting my daughter, who crosses an LEA boundary, to be restricted, perhaps even told to remote learn, by her school.

    So, even guidance has a feel bad element to it. And the government has been shoddy again in the application of these as well, I note in the government link page, below the May 17 relaxation and the local guidance we have the line "You should follow this guidance on what you can or cannot do. It is underpinned by law"! (the truth of this, I'm sure is complex).

    And I guess the government will do the square root of nothing extra in these areas - surge testing is all well and good, but has surge testing ever got our areas or of trouble before.

    What they should do is be getting vaccines in arms as fast as possible and breaking their backs to get these areas out of guidance. 10% of the UK vaccine supply could surge vaccinate areas covering 3 million people: get the second vaccine in anyone who has gone more than a few weeks, get the first vaccine in everyone who is left over 3 weeks Don't leave these areas languishing in guidance all summer and bust a gut to avoid local lockdowns ever becoming necessary.

    And the betting angle - I'm favouring Labour on a far stronger basis for Batley & Spen - I honestly think it has gone for the Tories now. (OK, I was looking on the bright side for Labour in Hartlepool, so for, but I'm much firmer in my opinion on this).
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,295
    Updates as Palestine Action protest on roof of Israeli-owned arms factory [in Leicester] continues into sixth day

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/updates-palestine-action-protest-roof-5449150
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,273
    Maffew said:

    So I see that now that Leicester has had one week of freedom after 14 months or so of severe restrictions the government is gearing up to reverse on that. I don't live in any of the areas with the new guidance, but it's making me feel a bit ill all the same. Adds to the feeling that this will never end. Particularly once I'd been vaccinated, I would be struggling to feel any moral obligation to comply with restrictions going forward.

    This will end. We are in the end game now, but still lots of folk not had the chance to be vaccinated yet. Hopefully you've seen the excellent vaccination numbers in recent days. Its likely that in the next 4 weeks the vast majority of those eligible for a jab will have had one, and the number wit two jabs done (and thus the magical 'fully vaccinated' will surely be over 50% and maybe more. Vaccination is the way out of this, but we are not quite there yet, hence the need for caution in some areas with an issue. As I've said up thread, this looks like the model for government lifting all legal restrictions next month - they will be replaced with guidance, and inevitably it will vary in different localities. At the moment swathes of the western half of the country show up yellow on the MSOA map. That means fewer than 9 positives tests per 100,000 people in those areas. With so many vaccinated, it would be nonsense to keep restrictions in those places beyond the 21st. But for your own health, if you are in a riskier area, take a bit more care.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,402
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "They’ll kill me, terrified Roman Protasevich told Ryanair flight crew" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theyll-kill-me-terrified-roman-protasevich-told-ryanair-flight-crew-rb0mxg3vm

    This is real news, unlike the Prince Harry / Martin Bashir / Meghan Markle stuff that we keep having to listen to.

    Harry and Megan will be coming along soon to tell you why their suffering and grief is more intense than Roman's
    Isnt the modern thing to dramatically emote about the suffering of others to draw attention to yourself?

    I think dislike of that may even unite wokesters and antiwokesters to some degree (eg against the stereotype of the famous rich white people lecturing while holding a sick African child)
    It’s the self-centred narcissism that really annoys people, when we see those for whom everything always has to be about themselves.

    At a time when there’s a load of genuine suffering going on in the world, hearing someone going on about how awful their life is, from their huge mansion, just grates with the public. Especially when he’s seemingly getting a massive cheque for doing his therapy sessions in public.
    So far as I can see the only people banging on about H and M are the haters...
    Do they actually have any sort of fan-base (in the UK)?
    @Foxy is right that H&M get the oxygen of publicity mostly from people who dislike then. If they didn't get the press, I suspect they'd probably disappear...
    They get the press because if Hello/Grazia/DM puts them on the front they sell more copies. Fan or foe that is simply market demand.

    Perhaps Socialist Worker should try it.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,501
    edited May 2021

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
    I was about to say exactly the same thing.
    Whatever English nationalism is, pumping vast amounts of English taxpayers money north and west isn't it. Nor is allowing Scots MPs to have a say over English matters without the reverse.

    Boris-era Conservatism is clearly different to Cameron-era Conservatism, so I understand the desire for a new label. To me, the Boris-era Conservative Party appears not so very different from the post-merger SDP. So maybe 'social democracy' is the label we are looking for?
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,843
    Pro_Rata said:

    I do think replacing regulation by guidance is a correct way to go, now is the time for what we perceive as 'The Swedish Approach'. As Harry Potter might say, now is the time for Advisio Boltonian. But to think it unproblematic would be wrong.

    For instance, making local guidance areas could put a target on their back. In terms of foreign travel, countries could readily ban someone from these areas entering (note: and they could claim justification - the mix of the infection rate in a UK area combined with the vaccination progress of that country locally would be the correct mix of considerations - once you are out of the UK there are more unvaccinated that you can infect). Or domestic rental holiday homes might say, 'aren't you supposed to be staying local' and cancel (and re-let) bookings. I'm fully expecting my daughter, who crosses an LEA boundary, to be restricted, perhaps even told to remote learn, by her school.

    So, even guidance has a feel bad element to it. And the government has been shoddy again in the application of these as well, I note in the government link page, below the May 17 relaxation and the local guidance we have the line "You should follow this guidance on what you can or cannot do. It is underpinned by law"! (the truth of this, I'm sure is complex).

    And I guess the government will do the square root of nothing extra in these areas - surge testing is all well and good, but has surge testing ever got our areas or of trouble before.

    What they should do is be getting vaccines in arms as fast as possible and breaking their backs to get these areas out of guidance. 10% of the UK vaccine supply could surge vaccinate areas covering 3 million people: get the second vaccine in anyone who has gone more than a few weeks, get the first vaccine in everyone who is left over 3 weeks Don't leave these areas languishing in guidance all summer and bust a gut to avoid local lockdowns ever becoming necessary.

    And the betting angle - I'm favouring Labour on a far stronger basis for Batley & Spen - I honestly think it has gone for the Tories now. (OK, I was looking on the bright side for Labour in Hartlepool, so for, but I'm much firmer in my opinion on this).

    "dyor"
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?

    Boris.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?

    Boris.
    Pity he is such a feeble weakling
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    The Gov't should just publish the data and let people decide for themselves at this point, the widespread availability of vaccination - completely stratified by group risk in the rollout changes the dynamic completely for me. The original roadmap should be followed.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,202
    Winning this is not going to fix anything. The Midlands and North are more socially conservative than economically left wing and the South is more economically right wing than it is socially liberal. Labour can’t keep its early 21st century coalition going in those circumstances. No winning in Batley and Spen nor even a change of leader will change that fundamental. A radical realignment of the opposition parties, a liberal internationalist party working in London and the south, and a social democratic party in the North, could deprive the Tories of a majority if they were able to work together. But Labour as currently constituted doesn’t do it for anyone anymore.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?

    Boris.
    Pity he is such a feeble weakling
    But he is seen as the best realistic choice available

    What does that say about Starmer?
  • Options
    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,691

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    Cheer up. The LD's will either win or almost do so in C&A, thus reviving attention and interest.
    Unlikely. Cheryl Gillan was sitting on a 16k majority and 55% of the total vote, and this is 2021 not 1993.
    Nor is it 2019 when

    people voted Conservative because of the extreme Corbyn-Socialist threat
    people still though Johnson was a serious politician
    people still though he was hard-working and would do his best for the country as a whole
    people did not associate the Conservatives with corruption (cash for cronies)
    traditional campaigning was restricted by the lack of daylight
    it was the third election in a year, and people were tired.

    So I think Mr Cole is right in being on the optimistic side about Chesham and Amersham. The Lib Dems will certainly do well.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?

    Boris.
    Pity he is such a feeble weakling
    Yet he has double the approval of his opposition number (44 vs 23 approval R&W, 41 vs 22 favourable Comres) so what does that say about his opponents?
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    It now becomes clear why Belarus thought Hamas behind threat to the aircraft :smiley:

    https://twitter.com/KyleJGlen/status/1396843381603643392/photo/1

  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Cookie said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
    I was about to say exactly the same thing.
    Whatever English nationalism is, pumping vast amounts of English taxpayers money north and west isn't it. Nor is allowing Scots MPs to have a say over English matters without the reverse.
    English Nationalism barely exists. Scottish Nationalism is poison. The rest is noise.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    edited May 2021
    Public finances out this morning for April with more evidence that - while still huge - borrowing is significantly lower than
    @OBR_UK forecast in March. How @RishiSunak uses that room for manoeuvre will be a key issue for the Autumn Budget. @resfoundation
    take on the data.


    https://twitter.com/JamesSmithRF/status/1397098991528075265?s=20

    Debt to GDP in April was 98.5 per cent - the highest ratio since March 1962.

    In March, the OBR had expected it to continue to rise to 107.4 per cent of GDP this year but that level now looks set to be lower.


    https://twitter.com/resfoundation/status/1397088244970491910?s=20
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,983

    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?

    Boris.
    Pity he is such a feeble weakling
    Yet he has double the approval of his opposition number (44 vs 23 approval R&W, 41 vs 22 favourable Comres) so what does that say about his opponents?
    ...

  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,127

    So the 'Don't go to Kirklees etc' advice came out on Friday but the government didn't bother to let anyone know.

    Total incompetence.

    I'm doubtful whether many have thought of travelling to Savile Town in Dewsbury for a curry in the last few days.

    And if they did I doubt any government warning would have made much difference.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ClippP said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    Cheer up. The LD's will either win or almost do so in C&A, thus reviving attention and interest.
    Unlikely. Cheryl Gillan was sitting on a 16k majority and 55% of the total vote, and this is 2021 not 1993.
    Nor is it 2019 when

    people voted Conservative because of the extreme Corbyn-Socialist threat
    people still though Johnson was a serious politician
    people still though he was hard-working and would do his best for the country as a whole
    people did not associate the Conservatives with corruption (cash for cronies)
    traditional campaigning was restricted by the lack of daylight
    it was the third election in a year, and people were tired.

    So I think Mr Cole is right in being on the optimistic side about Chesham and Amersham. The Lib Dems will certainly do well.
    You're right its 2021 when:

    People vote Conservative because they approve him far more than Starmer.
    More people approve of Boris than in 2019.
    Boris has led a world beating vaccine procurement and rollout program.
    etc

    You'd think from your rantings and ravings that Boris is less popular now than he was in 2019 when all available data shows the opposite.

    Just because you're an extreme illiberal contrarian who thinks changing the electoral system is a better idea than trying to win people around to your politics doesn't mean everyone else agrees with you.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,983
    isam said:

    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?

    Boris.
    Pity he is such a feeble weakling
    Yet he has double the approval of his opposition number (44 vs 23 approval R&W, 41 vs 22 favourable Comres) so what does that say about his opponents?
    ...

    ...

  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,028



    :lol: Of course Coffey isn't nervous, she's the one of very few Cabinet ministers who hasn't made a f up during this crisis. Must be due for promotion if someone senior falls.

    She made some some disloyal comments when Johnson was creating his own Unit 731 in the nation's care homes last year. I highly doubt that's been forgiven or forgotten.

    There is also a distinct possibility that she is Remoaner undercover operative. We can't rule out the possibility that it's actually Ken Clarke with a tea cost on his head.


  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,775
    Cookie said:


    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.

    I was about to say exactly the same thing.
    Whatever English nationalism is, pumping vast amounts of English taxpayers money north and west isn't it. Nor is allowing Scots MPs to have a say over English matters without the reverse.

    Boris-era Conservatism is clearly different to Cameron-era Conservatism, so I understand the desire for a new label. To me, the Boris-era Conservative Party appears not so very different from the post-merger SDP. So maybe 'social democracy' is the label we are looking for?
    Johnsonism is Peronism in its three essential characteristics:

    1 Social justice / leveling up
    2 National sovereignty
    3 State patronage of the economy

    All delivered through the Party.

    There are some differences. The Conservative Party isn't tied to organised labour movements. The personalities of Peron and Johnson are very different.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Borough, aye.

    If people refuse a vaccine, that's up to them. But everyone else shouldn't have their lives restricted by such anti-vaxxers.
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,764

    The social deprivation maps are a fantastic piece of work by the ONS.

    The problem with the London maps is that they are down to LSOA level (not street level), which is about 1700 people. Even at that level, the data is not fine-grained enough to capture the stark difference between Avenue Road and the neighbouring estates.

    I live in one of the most “deprived” LSOAs in Hackney, but that’s because it largely captures the sink estate to my south.

    Is anyone else aware of a metro that so closely intertwines wealth and poverty, as London does?

    Even better than the deprivation map is one looking at income and productivity, accessible via a link from the deprivation map.

    If you read the whole thing, there is an implicit conclusion that Scotland, Wales, the North and the Midlands (the not-South) are effectively economic colonies of the South, in that Southerners income is higher than productivity suggests it should be, whereas the reverse is true in the not-South.

    Charles Booth (1889) characterised half of Bloomsbury as 'vicious and semi-criminal'. Nothing has changed.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,310

    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?

    Boris.
    Boris should lead the breakaway centrist Labour Party MkII? To be fair to the suggestion, should any breakaway happen every man jack of the Corbynites will call them all traitors and Tories wo why not?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    Totally OT - but love the way the Captain is last onboard after all the engines are running - and they pull the flag & flagpole down before taxi!

    https://twitter.com/Birdseed501/status/1396828689753681923?s=20
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,596
    The recent Belarus thing shows up a real problem for the west. The EU is making plenty of noise as if it is a state rather than an elaborate trade association, but is backed up neither by forces nor a real defence policy.

    At the same time each of its constituent parts while sharing a currency, FoM, common borders etc has its own forces, deterrence and defence policy.

    And, critically, most but not all are in NATO. RoI is the home of Ryanair, the subject of what any Victorian PM would have regarded as an act of war by a foreign power. But it is neutral - it takes no side in a conflict between Belarus and any other state.

    And NATO cannot speak or act for all the members of the EU.

    What do the west's enemies make of this?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,501

    So the 'Don't go to Kirklees etc' advice came out on Friday but the government didn't bother to let anyone know.

    Total incompetence.

    I'm doubtful whether many have thought of travelling to Savile Town in Dewsbury for a curry in the last few days.

    And if they did I doubt any government warning would have made much difference.
    I am, however, planning on going on holiday in the borough of Bedford in two weeks' time.
    Haven't heard anything to the contrary yet. But I'll be pretty annoyed if it's called off.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785


    :lol: Of course Coffey isn't nervous, she's the one of very few Cabinet ministers who hasn't made a f up during this crisis. Must be due for promotion if someone senior falls.

    "Promote someone competent"?

    I don't think thats how it works any more.....
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?

    Boris.
    Boris should lead the breakaway centrist Labour Party MkII? To be fair to the suggestion, should any breakaway happen every man jack of the Corbynites will call them all traitors and Tories wo why not?
    Your question was who has the political force of nature to do an En Marche, create a progressive, forward looking centrist big tent.

    Your problem though is that Boris has already done that. Hence his being the Heineken of PMs, reaching the parts that other leaders can not. Hard to create a modern centrist big tent when the PM has erected one already.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,868
    "Sasha Johnson was shot in the head by a gang of four young black men who stormed into the garden of a Peckham all-day party and opened fire - but the BLM activist was not the intended target, Scotland Yard said today.

    Commander Alison Heydari has made an appeal for anyone who knows the identity of the shooters to come forward and help police 'bring them to justice' as the mother-of-two fights for her life in hospital.

    The self-styled 'Black Panther of Oxford', 27, who called for the police to be defunded after the murder of George Floyd in the US last summer, needed emergency surgery following the attack in south-east London in the early hours of Sunday morning."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9615725/Police-hunt-four-young-black-men-shooting-Sasha-Johnson.html
  • Options
    MaffewMaffew Posts: 235

    Maffew said:

    So I see that now that Leicester has had one week of freedom after 14 months or so of severe restrictions the government is gearing up to reverse on that. I don't live in any of the areas with the new guidance, but it's making me feel a bit ill all the same. Adds to the feeling that this will never end. Particularly once I'd been vaccinated, I would be struggling to feel any moral obligation to comply with restrictions going forward.

    Perhaps Parliament needs a full debate on this. Time for our democratic representatives to debate this rather than just Gove making a decision in secret.

    Basically, are we prepared as a society to impose local lockdowns and tiers because some places have higher rates of vaccine refusal?

    Not easy issues. Major ethical challenge.

    That's what Parliament is for.
    That would be nice wouldn't it. I won't hold my breath. I don't actually find it a difficult issue morally though. Making life extremely difficult for the unvaccinated is a difficult moral issue (e.g. restricted access to x y z services).
    However, I really don't need much internal debate on whether vaccinated people should have severe restrictions on their liberties imposed on them to allow others to choose not to be vaccinated *and* then be protected from the disease. Opinions will, of course, vary.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    algarkirk said:

    The recent Belarus thing shows up a real problem for the west. The EU is making plenty of noise as if it is a state rather than an elaborate trade association, but is backed up neither by forces nor a real defence policy.

    At the same time each of its constituent parts while sharing a currency, FoM, common borders etc has its own forces, deterrence and defence policy.

    And, critically, most but not all are in NATO. RoI is the home of Ryanair, the subject of what any Victorian PM would have regarded as an act of war by a foreign power. But it is neutral - it takes no side in a conflict between Belarus and any other state.

    And NATO cannot speak or act for all the members of the EU.

    What do the west's enemies make of this?

    That they have effective free rein, to act as provocatively as they please?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,790

    Mr. B, d'you reckon Ferrari will be value?

    Leclerc was very good at Baku a couple of years ago.

    No.
    Not enough power.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,736
    edited May 2021

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    I agree @bigjohnowls .

    It seems pretty low to me to select someone who lacks any sort of LP track record other than being the sibling of a tragically murdered person in order to gain a sympathy vote, and breaking LP rules to boot. That's politics these days I suppose. I expect LP to win now - they should be favourites IMO. (I backed them at longer odds as soon as I knew who the possible candidate is to be.)
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    "Sasha Johnson was shot in the head by a gang of four young black men who stormed into the garden of a Peckham all-day party and opened fire - but the BLM activist was not the intended target, Scotland Yard said today.

    Commander Alison Heydari has made an appeal for anyone who knows the identity of the shooters to come forward and help police 'bring them to justice' as the mother-of-two fights for her life in hospital.

    The self-styled 'Black Panther of Oxford', 27, who called for the police to be defunded after the murder of George Floyd in the US last summer, needed emergency surgery following the attack in south-east London in the early hours of Sunday morning."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9615725/Police-hunt-four-young-black-men-shooting-Sasha-Johnson.html

    The coverage on Sky has been really weird. You'd think from watching it that she was a modern day Martin Luther King, a brave hero standing up for the oppressed that had been threatened then ultimately shot by white supremacists.

    Just all entirely odd.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,983
    Andy_JS said:

    "Sasha Johnson was shot in the head by a gang of four young black men who stormed into the garden of a Peckham all-day party and opened fire - but the BLM activist was not the intended target, Scotland Yard said today.

    Commander Alison Heydari has made an appeal for anyone who knows the identity of the shooters to come forward and help police 'bring them to justice' as the mother-of-two fights for her life in hospital.

    The self-styled 'Black Panther of Oxford', 27, who called for the police to be defunded after the murder of George Floyd in the US last summer, needed emergency surgery following the attack in south-east London in the early hours of Sunday morning."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9615725/Police-hunt-four-young-black-men-shooting-Sasha-Johnson.html

    As if the BNP had written it themselves
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Sasha Johnson was shot in the head by a gang of four young black men who stormed into the garden of a Peckham all-day party and opened fire - but the BLM activist was not the intended target, Scotland Yard said today.

    Commander Alison Heydari has made an appeal for anyone who knows the identity of the shooters to come forward and help police 'bring them to justice' as the mother-of-two fights for her life in hospital.

    The self-styled 'Black Panther of Oxford', 27, who called for the police to be defunded after the murder of George Floyd in the US last summer, needed emergency surgery following the attack in south-east London in the early hours of Sunday morning."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9615725/Police-hunt-four-young-black-men-shooting-Sasha-Johnson.html

    As if the BNP had written it themselves
    Its the Daily Mail, is there a difference?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,127
    Cookie said:

    So the 'Don't go to Kirklees etc' advice came out on Friday but the government didn't bother to let anyone know.

    Total incompetence.

    I'm doubtful whether many have thought of travelling to Savile Town in Dewsbury for a curry in the last few days.

    And if they did I doubt any government warning would have made much difference.
    I am, however, planning on going on holiday in the borough of Bedford in two weeks' time.
    Haven't heard anything to the contrary yet. But I'll be pretty annoyed if it's called off.
    Of course the government could say "avoid areas where people take holidays in India, have a high level of anti-vaxxers and have high density multi-generational homes".
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,356

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    The answer is staring at you in the face in Caerdydd.

    UK Labour need the Drake.

    Memo to UK Labour: For a hot property like the Drake -- move fast & sign him up..

    (We will have to ensure emergency medical equipment is at hand in Llandudno when @Big_G_NorthWales hears the Drake is heading up the whole of Labour, and not just its dodgy Welsh sub-office).
    I would be delighted for him to head up labour
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,127
    Maffew said:

    So I see that now that Leicester has had one week of freedom after 14 months or so of severe restrictions the government is gearing up to reverse on that. I don't live in any of the areas with the new guidance, but it's making me feel a bit ill all the same. Adds to the feeling that this will never end. Particularly once I'd been vaccinated, I would be struggling to feel any moral obligation to comply with restrictions going forward.

    Especially given that much of Leicester is covid free.

    Double vaxxed people aren't going to accept restrictions because there's an inner urban shithole with covid five miles away.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,141
    The ONS: trade in goods with the EU down 23% in the first quarter of 2021, compared to the first quarter of 2018.

    That accords with my estimate - Brexit has reduce total UK trade by 11% (both with EU and the rest of the world). https://www.cer.eu/insights/cost-brexit-march-2021
    https://twitter.com/JohnSpringford/status/1397111305618739200/photo/1
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,028
    algarkirk said:

    The recent Belarus thing shows up a real problem for the west. The EU is making plenty of noise as if it is a state rather than an elaborate trade association, but is backed up neither by forces nor a real defence policy.

    At the same time each of its constituent parts while sharing a currency, FoM, common borders etc has its own forces, deterrence and defence policy.

    And, critically, most but not all are in NATO. RoI is the home of Ryanair, the subject of what any Victorian PM would have regarded as an act of war by a foreign power. But it is neutral - it takes no side in a conflict between Belarus and any other state.

    And NATO cannot speak or act for all the members of the EU.

    What do the west's enemies make of this?

    The 26 counties aren't completely disconnected from NATO as they are in PfP which is the first of four stages toward membership.

    Europe has no strategic autonomy within NATO and the US is rapidly losing interest in defending Europe against the ragged double headed eagle to the east. There is going to have to be some sort of strategic realignment at some point. A Paris - Berlin - Moscow power axis could be a possibility once we're in the post-Putin era.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,047
    Cookie said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
    I was about to say exactly the same thing.
    Whatever English nationalism is, pumping vast amounts of English taxpayers money north and west isn't it. Nor is allowing Scots MPs to have a say over English matters without the reverse.

    Boris-era Conservatism is clearly different to Cameron-era Conservatism, so I understand the desire for a new label. To me, the Boris-era Conservative Party appears not so very different from the post-merger SDP. So maybe 'social democracy' is the label we are looking for?
    Boris-era Conservatism doesn't look like much I've ever seen from the Conservatives, apart, just possibly, from the Nationalist/Empire Loyalist harrumphing over Suez.
    Which didn't end well.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Ace, what sort of figure do you see succeeding Putin, though?

    Russia's a pretend democracy run by an ex-KGB czar-in-all-but-name. Hard to see it changing drastically.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,615

    Maffew said:

    So I see that now that Leicester has had one week of freedom after 14 months or so of severe restrictions the government is gearing up to reverse on that. I don't live in any of the areas with the new guidance, but it's making me feel a bit ill all the same. Adds to the feeling that this will never end. Particularly once I'd been vaccinated, I would be struggling to feel any moral obligation to comply with restrictions going forward.

    Perhaps Parliament needs a full debate on this. Time for our democratic representatives to debate this rather than just Gove making a decision in secret.

    Basically, are we prepared as a society to impose local lockdowns and tiers because some places have higher rates of vaccine refusal?

    Not easy issues. Major ethical challenge.

    That's what Parliament is for.
    Gove is a snake, wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,545

    Mr. Ace, what sort of figure do you see succeeding Putin, though?

    Russia's a pretend democracy run by an ex-KGB czar-in-all-but-name. Hard to see it changing drastically.

    My guess would be someone less brutally competent. Given Russian history, just brutal, probably.

    Putin is not especially old, and seems to be in fair health. He will not leave* the job - he is only president for life, as one Bond villain put it.

    *Yes, I know - he did the job swap thing a while back for legal reasons. But that didn't actually change things. I can't see him doing a Sulla.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,124

    Cookie said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
    I was about to say exactly the same thing.
    Whatever English nationalism is, pumping vast amounts of English taxpayers money north and west isn't it. Nor is allowing Scots MPs to have a say over English matters without the reverse.
    English Nationalism barely exists. Scottish Nationalism is poison. The rest is noise.
    The English Democrats are the main English Nationalist party, not the Tories.

    They used to support English independence, now mainly push for an English Parliament
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Democrats
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,868
    "Wendy Burke, director of public health at North Tyneside council, has also said that she was not told the government would be advising people against non-essential travel into and out of her area."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/may/25/uk-covid-live-news-travel-advice-indian-variant-hotspots-england-coronavirus-latest-updates
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,540

    Cookie said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
    I was about to say exactly the same thing.
    Whatever English nationalism is, pumping vast amounts of English taxpayers money north and west isn't it. Nor is allowing Scots MPs to have a say over English matters without the reverse.

    Boris-era Conservatism is clearly different to Cameron-era Conservatism, so I understand the desire for a new label. To me, the Boris-era Conservative Party appears not so very different from the post-merger SDP. So maybe 'social democracy' is the label we are looking for?
    Boris-era Conservatism doesn't look like much I've ever seen from the Conservatives, apart, just possibly, from the Nationalist/Empire Loyalist harrumphing over Suez.
    Which didn't end well.
    The other thing that tends not to end will is the massive state patronage thing mentioned upthread- if it isn't Peronism, it's Peronism's British Relative. Trouble is that Who You Know becomes the dominant issue, so everyone is too busy greasing the wheels to get any productive work done.

    But it sounds good- things being done in the Name of the People! So it tends to be popular until the wheels fall off.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,983
    ...

    Cookie said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
    I was about to say exactly the same thing.
    Whatever English nationalism is, pumping vast amounts of English taxpayers money north and west isn't it. Nor is allowing Scots MPs to have a say over English matters without the reverse.

    Boris-era Conservatism is clearly different to Cameron-era Conservatism, so I understand the desire for a new label. To me, the Boris-era Conservative Party appears not so very different from the post-merger SDP. So maybe 'social democracy' is the label we are looking for?
    Boris-era Conservatism doesn't look like much I've ever seen from the Conservatives, apart, just possibly, from the Nationalist/Empire Loyalist harrumphing over Suez.
    Which didn't end well.
    The other thing that tends not to end will is the massive state patronage thing mentioned upthread- if it isn't Peronism, it's Peronism's British Relative. Trouble is that Who You Know becomes the dominant issue, so everyone is too busy greasing the wheels to get any productive work done.

    But it sounds good- things being done in the Name of the People! So it tends to be popular until the wheels fall off.
    Standard ‘seed planted’ sign off noted
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Public finances out this morning for April with more evidence that - while still huge - borrowing is significantly lower than
    @OBR_UK forecast in March. How @RishiSunak uses that room for manoeuvre will be a key issue for the Autumn Budget. @resfoundation
    take on the data.


    https://twitter.com/JamesSmithRF/status/1397098991528075265?s=20

    Debt to GDP in April was 98.5 per cent - the highest ratio since March 1962.

    In March, the OBR had expected it to continue to rise to 107.4 per cent of GDP this year but that level now looks set to be lower.


    https://twitter.com/resfoundation/status/1397088244970491910?s=20

    That's correct. While objective awful, today's figures cam e in somewhere between mine and @MaxPB 's forecasts, both of which are miles better than the OBR for the full year. Frankly, if we avoid a third wave, then this could be very embarrassing for the OBR.
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,731
    edited May 2021

    Andy_JS said:

    "Sasha Johnson was shot in the head by a gang of four young black men who stormed into the garden of a Peckham all-day party and opened fire - but the BLM activist was not the intended target, Scotland Yard said today.

    Commander Alison Heydari has made an appeal for anyone who knows the identity of the shooters to come forward and help police 'bring them to justice' as the mother-of-two fights for her life in hospital.

    The self-styled 'Black Panther of Oxford', 27, who called for the police to be defunded after the murder of George Floyd in the US last summer, needed emergency surgery following the attack in south-east London in the early hours of Sunday morning."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9615725/Police-hunt-four-young-black-men-shooting-Sasha-Johnson.html

    The coverage on Sky has been really weird. You'd think from watching it that she was a modern day Martin Luther King, a brave hero standing up for the oppressed that had been threatened then ultimately shot by white supremacists.

    Just all entirely odd.
    I don’t care about the coverage, what she said in the past, or what her supporters/opponents are saying now.

    I just hope they find the gun and the person who fired it and lock them up for a long time. We need to make “Drive by shootings” history.

    Poor woman.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,047

    Cookie said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
    I was about to say exactly the same thing.
    Whatever English nationalism is, pumping vast amounts of English taxpayers money north and west isn't it. Nor is allowing Scots MPs to have a say over English matters without the reverse.

    Boris-era Conservatism is clearly different to Cameron-era Conservatism, so I understand the desire for a new label. To me, the Boris-era Conservative Party appears not so very different from the post-merger SDP. So maybe 'social democracy' is the label we are looking for?
    Boris-era Conservatism doesn't look like much I've ever seen from the Conservatives, apart, just possibly, from the Nationalist/Empire Loyalist harrumphing over Suez.
    Which didn't end well.
    The other thing that tends not to end will is the massive state patronage thing mentioned upthread- if it isn't Peronism, it's Peronism's British Relative. Trouble is that Who You Know becomes the dominant issue, so everyone is too busy greasing the wheels to get any productive work done.

    But it sounds good- things being done in the Name of the People! So it tends to be popular until the wheels fall off.
    Carrie as Evita?
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,028

    Mr. Ace, what sort of figure do you see succeeding Putin, though?

    Russia's a pretend democracy run by an ex-KGB czar-in-all-but-name. Hard to see it changing drastically.

    This is a common Western reading and misunderstanding of the Putin Project. He is the gnomish henchman of the 'familiya' - the 111 people who own 35% of the Russian economy. He is not the boss. He was specifically recruited by Berezovsky to be a 'Russian Pinochet' when the familiya was worried about the liberal trajectory of Yeltsin when sober. Putin has fallen out with a few of them, sometimes at the direction of others, but he largely abides by his side of the bargain: he'll keeps his hands off the familiya's money and in return he gets political power and his family are billionaires via graft.

    Sobyanin is considered the favourite to succeed if anything unfortunate should happen to Vovka.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,868
    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Sasha Johnson was shot in the head by a gang of four young black men who stormed into the garden of a Peckham all-day party and opened fire - but the BLM activist was not the intended target, Scotland Yard said today.

    Commander Alison Heydari has made an appeal for anyone who knows the identity of the shooters to come forward and help police 'bring them to justice' as the mother-of-two fights for her life in hospital.

    The self-styled 'Black Panther of Oxford', 27, who called for the police to be defunded after the murder of George Floyd in the US last summer, needed emergency surgery following the attack in south-east London in the early hours of Sunday morning."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9615725/Police-hunt-four-young-black-men-shooting-Sasha-Johnson.html

    The coverage on Sky has been really weird. You'd think from watching it that she was a modern day Martin Luther King, a brave hero standing up for the oppressed that had been threatened then ultimately shot by white supremacists.

    Just all entirely odd.
    I don’t care about the coverage, what she said in the past, or what her supporters are saying now.

    I just hope they find the gun and the person who fired it and lock them up for a long time.

    Poor woman.
    The police are rightly investigating it. She called for the police to be defunded.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Ace, interesting, but that still requires a significant change in Russia which, if what you say is accurate, would require the oligarchs to decide to change.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,983
    BREAKING: Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s comments about women wearing the burka have given an impression that the Tories are “insensitive to Muslim communities”, an independent review into alleged Islamophobia and discrimination in the Conservative Party has said.

    https://twitter.com/timesradio/status/1397117322570211330?s=21
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,540
    isam said:

    ...

    Cookie said:

    On Topic

    Labour Party Rule must have been a Member for 12 Consecutive months prior to being a Candidate

    Labour Candidate has been a member for less than 5 weeks

    I think Labour still loses but will do better with this Candidate

    It does rather smack of desperation.
    SKS knows its over if Lab lose Batley & Spen
    Thank you Diane Abbott.

    Who do you suggest? There's only one Richard Burgon.
    Anyone but Starmer. Why you still backing that loser?

    Andy Burnham when eligible
    Anyone but Starmer? So you don't discount Burgon or his ilk. Well good luck with that. Given the choice between someone of Burgon's calibre, I'd even prefer Johnson, or Jenrick, or Williamson, and I can't bear any of them.

    If you have your way, Labour are finished.
    My way is Burnham.

    Why do you keep saying i want Burton.
    I have never wanted Burgon.

    I voted for Nandy and Rayner
    But Burnham's out of bounds, and less impressive than his current reputation.
    Anyway as the party of "UK woke", I thought WASP straight males were off the shortlist.

    Who's your holding candidate? And will they find the seat fits comfortably, and decide to stay?

    Labour are in a mess. Corbyn put the Union Barons to the fore and Momentum are still a party within a party, and some of the most talented centrists, upped and left for the LDs

    We live in a country where we have a Conservative Party that has been hijacked by English Nationalists and we have no opposition outside Scotland, Labour are dying, the LDs are dead and the Greens are but a lobby group. If Starmer can do nothing else, he needs to remove the cancer of Corbynism, and try again. If he cannot do this, we are lumbered, with Johnson, or with Patel and their brand of simple, unpleasant populism, until a cabal of Heathites, Blairites and LDs can get it together and form a decent opposition. Let's call it ChangeUK...oh wait!
    The English Nationalist trope is so bloody boring, and entirely false.

    England would be hugely better off, and the Conservative Party vastly more powerful, if a nuclear weapon were set off under the Union and the whole damned thing were completely blown to kingdom come. The very fact that the Government is so determined to hold on to Scotland, against both its own political self-interest and that of the majority of the English electorate that identifies as English rather than British, tells us everything we need to know about the myth that the Johnson Government - whatever other sins it's guilty of - is an English Nationalist juggernaut. It's just bollocks.
    I was about to say exactly the same thing.
    Whatever English nationalism is, pumping vast amounts of English taxpayers money north and west isn't it. Nor is allowing Scots MPs to have a say over English matters without the reverse.

    Boris-era Conservatism is clearly different to Cameron-era Conservatism, so I understand the desire for a new label. To me, the Boris-era Conservative Party appears not so very different from the post-merger SDP. So maybe 'social democracy' is the label we are looking for?
    Boris-era Conservatism doesn't look like much I've ever seen from the Conservatives, apart, just possibly, from the Nationalist/Empire Loyalist harrumphing over Suez.
    Which didn't end well.
    The other thing that tends not to end will is the massive state patronage thing mentioned upthread- if it isn't Peronism, it's Peronism's British Relative. Trouble is that Who You Know becomes the dominant issue, so everyone is too busy greasing the wheels to get any productive work done.

    But it sounds good- things being done in the Name of the People! So it tends to be popular until the wheels fall off.
    Standard ‘seed planted’ sign off noted
    OK. Point to an exception. A developed country where the national government hosing investment into specific locations and businesses hasn't gone pearshaped.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    A mysterious London based PR agency is offering French influencers cash to launder disinformation about the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines - asking them to falsely claim the jabs are responsible for hundreds of deaths and tell people to "draw their own conclusions".

    https://twitter.com/charliehtweets/status/1396860850699395074?s=20

    The language used would suggest this "London based" (sic) PR agency do not have English as their first language....
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    pingping Posts: 3,731
    Andy_JS said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Sasha Johnson was shot in the head by a gang of four young black men who stormed into the garden of a Peckham all-day party and opened fire - but the BLM activist was not the intended target, Scotland Yard said today.

    Commander Alison Heydari has made an appeal for anyone who knows the identity of the shooters to come forward and help police 'bring them to justice' as the mother-of-two fights for her life in hospital.

    The self-styled 'Black Panther of Oxford', 27, who called for the police to be defunded after the murder of George Floyd in the US last summer, needed emergency surgery following the attack in south-east London in the early hours of Sunday morning."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9615725/Police-hunt-four-young-black-men-shooting-Sasha-Johnson.html

    The coverage on Sky has been really weird. You'd think from watching it that she was a modern day Martin Luther King, a brave hero standing up for the oppressed that had been threatened then ultimately shot by white supremacists.

    Just all entirely odd.
    I don’t care about the coverage, what she said in the past, or what her supporters are saying now.

    I just hope they find the gun and the person who fired it and lock them up for a long time.

    Poor woman.
    The police are rightly investigating it. She called for the police to be defunded.
    So what?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,356
    Just seen that Isabel Webster is leaving Sky News after 10 years, and her twitter feed is begging her not to join GBNews

    The perceived fear and hatred from the left about the imminent arrival of a GBNews is comical

    And to watch Andrew Neil taking on today's politicians without fear or favour is likely to be very entertaining and at the expense of Sky and the BBC viewing figures
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Just seen that Isabel Webster is leaving Sky News after 10 years, and her twitter feed is begging her not to join GBNews

    The perceived fear and hatred from the left about the imminent arrival of a GBNews is comical

    And to watch Andrew Neil taking on today's politicians without fear or favour is likely to be very entertaining and at the expense of Sky and the BBC viewing figures

    Its well overdue to be frank, though I expect it will have a comically high Channel Number on Sky at least.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,028

    A mysterious London based PR agency is offering French influencers cash to launder disinformation about the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines - asking them to falsely claim the jabs are responsible for hundreds of deaths and tell people to "draw their own conclusions".

    https://twitter.com/charliehtweets/status/1396860850699395074?s=20

    The language used would suggest this "London based" (sic) PR agency do not have English as their first language....

    Say/tell confusion is very common among Russian students of English as Russian uses the same verb (govorit') for both. Missing definite/indefinite articles also point to the East.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,141
    Via PA: Johnson said he was "sorry for any offence taken"

    “Would I use some of the offending language from my past writings today? Now that I am Prime Minister, I would not."

    Several interviewees who spoke to inquiry considered PM’s language "discriminatory & unacceptable"

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1397118467900329985
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    An FOI request reveals the SNP ScotGov have spent £2million of taxpayers' money setting up a "Brussels Office" with 17 staff.

    As there is a UK Gov mission to Brussels already, we must assume this is to push their separation agenda.


    https://twitter.com/PamGosalMSP/status/1397119427964030978?s=20
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    New Thread Who will be FIRST?
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,135

    Just seen that Isabel Webster is leaving Sky News after 10 years, and her twitter feed is begging her not to join GBNews

    The perceived fear and hatred from the left about the imminent arrival of a GBNews is comical

    And to watch Andrew Neil taking on today's politicians without fear or favour is likely to be very entertaining and at the expense of Sky and the BBC viewing figures

    Assuming Johnson isn't too scared to get interviewed by Neil of course. Mind you, I am guessing that Gammon Boomer News will give him an easy ride.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,047

    New Thread Who will be FIRST?

    Where?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,310

    Related to on-topic, where do Labour go when they lose this one? The hard left are clear they want Starmer out with a choice of utter wazzocks suggested (Burgon FFS. BURGON). The intelligentsia left wish that people like Nandy were more intelligent or lust after the same Burnham they branded a traitor last time he ran.

    On the flip side the right are clear (and correct) that all things Corbyn are still a massive pull down on the party and must be removed, yet seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it. We don't even have a Kinnockian move against Militant Momentum.

    I know that the TIG hilarity is probably used as a sage lesson as to why a split or purge is a Bad Idea. But the two labour camps can't coexist, and TIG screwed up literally every aspect of their breakaway - crap name that kept changing, barcode logo, funny tinge, no policies or vision other than "our former parties are awful".

    Labour need to do an En Marche. A progressive, forward looking centrist big tent. The question is who - other than Tony Blair - has the political force of nature to do it?

    Boris.
    Boris should lead the breakaway centrist Labour Party MkII? To be fair to the suggestion, should any breakaway happen every man jack of the Corbynites will call them all traitors and Tories wo why not?
    Your question was who has the political force of nature to do an En Marche, create a progressive, forward looking centrist big tent.

    Your problem though is that Boris has already done that. Hence his being the Heineken of PMs, reaching the parts that other leaders can not. Hard to create a modern centrist big tent when the PM has erected one already.
    Very valid point!
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    The social deprivation maps are a fantastic piece of work by the ONS.

    The problem with the London maps is that they are down to LSOA level (not street level), which is about 1700 people. Even at that level, the data is not fine-grained enough to capture the stark difference between Avenue Road and the neighbouring estates.

    I live in one of the most “deprived” LSOAs in Hackney, but that’s because it largely captures the sink estate to my south.

    Is anyone else aware of a metro that so closely intertwines wealth and poverty, as London does?

    Even better than the deprivation map is one looking at income and productivity, accessible via a link from the deprivation map.

    If you read the whole thing, there is an implicit conclusion that Scotland, Wales, the North and the Midlands (the not-South) are effectively economic colonies of the South, in that Southerners income is higher than productivity suggests it should be, whereas the reverse is true in the not-South.

    I can't be the only one who stuck the recent by elections into the map. Hartlepool being one of the most deprived in the country should not have looked so good for the Tories. I cannot see them breaking through in Cities, but they must now hope to convert towns around the North.

    That Brings us to Batley and Spen. Labour have at least not shot themselves in the foot with candidate selection, but without polling I don't think they offer decent value. Kirklees has an even spread on the deprivation scale and if I recall forms part of the Leeds Bradford commuter area. I still have Tories close favourites, as I fear the local restriction around Indian variant may stir up unseemly resentment.

    Chesham is one the least deprived, and whilst I see strong cases for both Libdems, Greens, and Labour (2nd in 2017) I fear the fragmentation of left of centre votes will prevent a close contest.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,736
    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Sasha Johnson was shot in the head by a gang of four young black men who stormed into the garden of a Peckham all-day party and opened fire - but the BLM activist was not the intended target, Scotland Yard said today.

    Commander Alison Heydari has made an appeal for anyone who knows the identity of the shooters to come forward and help police 'bring them to justice' as the mother-of-two fights for her life in hospital.

    The self-styled 'Black Panther of Oxford', 27, who called for the police to be defunded after the murder of George Floyd in the US last summer, needed emergency surgery following the attack in south-east London in the early hours of Sunday morning."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9615725/Police-hunt-four-young-black-men-shooting-Sasha-Johnson.html

    The coverage on Sky has been really weird. You'd think from watching it that she was a modern day Martin Luther King, a brave hero standing up for the oppressed that had been threatened then ultimately shot by white supremacists.

    Just all entirely odd.
    I don’t care about the coverage, what she said in the past, or what her supporters are saying now.

    I just hope they find the gun and the person who fired it and lock them up for a long time.

    Poor woman.
    The police are rightly investigating it. She called for the police to be defunded.
    So what?
    BLM police "defunding" seeks a departure from liberal democracy universalism to a context-driven community approach to policing - which in their minds means that "black neighbourhoods" (apologies for the racist term) are more lightly policed or not at all.

    This women has, it seems, been killed by black murderers, hence Andy's point I guess.
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    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,764
    Must be terrible for them, not being overflown at 35,000 feet. If that doesn't bring them to heel, nothing will.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,504
    Two names: Gwyneth Dunwoody and Tamsin Dunwoody.

    I'm not convinced these things are decisive.

    If she wins it'll be because she's a good candidate that speaks to the local area.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,687
    Dura_Ace said:



    :lol: Of course Coffey isn't nervous, she's the one of very few Cabinet ministers who hasn't made a f up during this crisis. Must be due for promotion if someone senior falls.

    She made some some disloyal comments when Johnson was creating his own Unit 731 in the nation's care homes last year. I highly doubt that's been forgiven or forgotten.

    There is also a distinct possibility that she is Remoaner undercover operative. We can't rule out the possibility that it's actually Ken Clarke with a tea cost on his head.


    You're looking a bit worse for wear, there, @Dura_Ace, even for a Senior Citizen.
This discussion has been closed.