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In just three weeks there’ve been CON leads ranging between 1% and 18% in the published national pol

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So with vaccinations going full steam ahead I thought, hoped that in 2021 matters would quieten down a bit.

    Instead we have:-

    1. State sponsored hijacking of a plane by one of Putin's friends and the likely murder of a journalist critical of a government.
    2. The Middle East in flames again with the extremists in Israel/Palestine gaining more power.
    3. Revolting anti-semitism and threats of rape on the streets of our cities.
    4. Gang violence in Primrose Hill.
    5. The sort of persistent torrential rain which even Noah would have complained about.
    6. The disappearance of summer.


    And that's just in the last week or so.

    Have I missed anything?

    Your daughter’s restaurant re-opening?
    I don't think of that as a disaster.

    I should have mentioned aliens or alien geese or geese or whatever they are.
    Focus on the positives, not the disasters.

    There’s lots of positive things going on the the world. Humans are winning the war against the virus, and it will soon be summer.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    What are people who don't have much money supposed to do?
    Same question to you.

    If you do not agree with this policy, if you do not agree with net zero by 2050, who represents you?
    Labour would probably try and bring the date for this nonsense forward.
    And the lib dems are greener than the greens.

    Even Tice & Lozza are on board I think.

    That is the extent to which the green lobby utterly dominate.
    Steve Baker and a few other of the Tory usual suspects are on the side of the working man here. Obviously that's not nearly enough.
    Who do you think will get the work fitting all the new boilers? ;)
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    edited May 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    My brother-in-law's new build (in Ireland) is very comfortably warm with a heat pump alone. I reckon you could mandate all new builds to be built to a standard that included heat pumps for heating. The technology is there.

    For existing houses, not so much, but that's why people are developing things like the microwave boiler. Give people a problem to fix and they will come up with multiple solutions. Exciting times.
    We have just done one in a large house, the client hates it, they were expecting something like a boiler, its nothing like that, there is so much pipework and equipment and it just provides background heat. The pump uses the heat in the outside air and ground so on a very cold day they will struggle to warm a house. The idea that you could retrofit current three bed semis with heat pumps is a non starter.

    We are certainly not recommending them at the moment. They are eye wateringly expensive, usually 5 times the cost of a boiler and do not work anywhere near as well in heating a house.
    You shouldn't struggle to heat the house if the air is cold if the pump (and heating system) has been sized correctly... However in my experience this often requires multiple heat pumps or a 3-phase power supply for a large retrofit.
    Genuine question as I know little of heat pumps

    If as I gather heat pumps extract heat from the outside air to warm the inside of the house then what is the effect of densely packed housing in london say on the outside air temperature when all homes are busy sucking the heat out the air?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,149
    Cyclefree said:

    So with vaccinations going full steam ahead I thought, hoped that in 2021 matters would quieten down a bit.

    Instead we have:-

    1. State sponsored hijacking of a plane by one of Putin's friends and the likely murder of a journalist critical of a government.
    2. The Middle East in flames again with the extremists in Israel/Palestine gaining more power.
    3. Revolting anti-semitism and threats of rape on the streets of our cities.
    4. Gang violence in Primrose Hill.
    5. The sort of persistent torrential rain which even Noah would have complained about.
    6. The disappearance of summer.


    And that's just in the last week or so.

    Have I missed anything?

    7. Politicians are about to be set fully loose.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    I wonder why the header picks out the 18% Tory lead as an 'outlier' while ignoring the 1% Tory lead.......
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Epitaph for the world's oldest company.
    https://worksthatwork.com/3/kongo-gumi

    Our two core principles are:

    1. Treat customers as you would want to be treated yourself
    2. Keep the business small and the family poor
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 2021
    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    BluestBlue keeps saying the same thing no matter how many times you, me or others tell him/her that he is completely missing the point being made. This is not about electoral success. This is a moral issue. And yes we all know that politicians lie and mislead, but it is the degree and ease with which he does it.

    I give you the example of Michael Howard in that infamous Paxman interview. Michael Howard tried to mislead by avoiding answering the question but would not outright lie. He got crucified for doing so. He could easily have lied and got away with it.

    What would Boris have done?
    The intelligent thing.

    I forget, are you a Liberal Democrat? How fortunate that none of your leaders have ever been caught in a lie or gone back on a cast-iron pledge to the public...
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2021

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    An even bigger liar than Boris won three consecutive General Elections though, didn't he?

    Given the success of Boris and "Bliar" I doubt there's going to be much incentive for honest politicians going forwards.
    After thinking about it, I don't consider Blair a bigger liar than Johnson. I accept WMD, and going to war in Iraq was a dreadful and incredibly foolish thing to do, it seems now. Incidentally, thinking about that, I wonder what Saddam would have done if the US hadn't attacked. I suspect life for many (NOT all) Iraqis would be better than it is now.

    But Johnson lies routinely and persistently. And always has done.
    Indeed, it is an important distinction. I think Blair genuinely thought there were WMDs, and indeed most people did, including the intelligence services. The "dodgy dossier" was definitely "sexed up", but it was not necessarily a total lie.
    Boris Johnson clearly is a pathological liar. He can't help himself. Ultimately it may well cause the country a lot of problems. Those that enthusiastically support him (the real fanbois, as opposed to those who believe he is simply a better offering than Labour) are essentially telling us something about their own morality, in the same way those that support Salmond do.
    No it was demonstrably a total lie because even though Iraq was occupied, no WMDs were ever found. Blair did not care whether there were WMDs or not, the only thing he cared about was delivering British support for the venture to Bush. As he had promised in his starry-eyed visits to Washington.

    Johnson's cime in your eyes is he delivered Brexit, to which you and Andrew Adonis are pathalogically opposed.

    Watching you and him suck Brexit up in perpetuity is one of my greatest diversions.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Pagan2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    My brother-in-law's new build (in Ireland) is very comfortably warm with a heat pump alone. I reckon you could mandate all new builds to be built to a standard that included heat pumps for heating. The technology is there.

    For existing houses, not so much, but that's why people are developing things like the microwave boiler. Give people a problem to fix and they will come up with multiple solutions. Exciting times.
    We have just done one in a large house, the client hates it, they were expecting something like a boiler, its nothing like that, there is so much pipework and equipment and it just provides background heat. The pump uses the heat in the outside air and ground so on a very cold day they will struggle to warm a house. The idea that you could retrofit current three bed semis with heat pumps is a non starter.

    We are certainly not recommending them at the moment. They are eye wateringly expensive, usually 5 times the cost of a boiler and do not work anywhere near as well in heating a house.
    You shouldn't struggle to heat the house if the air is cold if the pump (and heating system) has been sized correctly... However in my experience this often requires multiple heat pumps or a 3-phase power supply for a large retrofit.
    Genuine question as I know little of heat pumps

    If a I gather heat pumps extract heat from the outside air to warm the inside of the house then what is the effect of densely packed housing in london say on the outside air temperature when all homes are busy sucking the heat out the air?
    Shouldn't really be a problem. At the end of the day you're taking the latent heat out of the air in the same way a fridge takes the latent heat out of your sausages and dumps the heat in your kitchen, and there's a lot of air.

    Heat pumps do have requirements in terms of how much empty space you need in front of them. You can't put them on a side wall, facing another building that is close by, for example.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    An even bigger liar than Boris won three consecutive General Elections though, didn't he?

    Given the success of Boris and "Bliar" I doubt there's going to be much incentive for honest politicians going forwards.
    Yes I never voted for TB. And I agree there's no incentive for honest politicians.

    I think it's a shame. Others celebrate it as it's "their" liar currently in power.
    It is a sad state of affairs that there are a significant number of people that think having a demonstrably dishonest person for their leader is OK providing they win elections. I loathed Blair, but I think he was honest compared to Johnson. Blair was a dissembler and a purveyor of half truths, which is not uncommon among politicians. Personally I think it unnecessary in any walk of life. Johnson has gulled some people (indeed quite a lot) into believing lying is perfectly acceptable, because that is the way he has always lived his life, and to him it is as normal as cleaning his teeth. The country will eventually pay a price for it, if it hasn't already.
    The Iraq war was not a half truth.

    It was a blatant lie of the first order, cost much blood and treasure, and the knock-on effects were horrendous.

    All because Tony was utterly dazzled by American power, and simply could not say no to Bush. Even the Americans were surprised by just how overcome Tony was.

    I agree there, I think Blair was groomed by Bush, and he will for ever be known and blamed for it. I see parallels between Blair/Iraq and Clegg/tuition fees, though no one died in the latter case.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Mr. Divvie, it's not so much an argument as a statement of fact.

    The period he's referring to is the 2nd century AD, specifically the consecutive reigns of Hadrian and Antoninus Pius (the lesser known Antonine Wall being further north).

    Great Britain, as it is now, had neither the English nor the Scots at that time. It had Picts in the north and Celts elsewhere.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Clean fuel biomass also
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    An even bigger liar than Boris won three consecutive General Elections though, didn't he?

    Given the success of Boris and "Bliar" I doubt there's going to be much incentive for honest politicians going forwards.
    Yes I never voted for TB. And I agree there's no incentive for honest politicians.

    I think it's a shame. Others celebrate it as it's "their" liar currently in power.
    It is a sad state of affairs that there are a significant number of people that think having a demonstrably dishonest person for their leader is OK providing they win elections. I loathed Blair, but I think he was honest compared to Johnson. Blair was a dissembler and a purveyor of half truths, which is not uncommon among politicians. Personally I think it unnecessary in any walk of life. Johnson has gulled some people (indeed quite a lot) into believing lying is perfectly acceptable, because that is the way he has always lived his life, and to him it is as normal as cleaning his teeth. The country will eventually pay a price for it, if it hasn't already.
    The Iraq war was not a half truth.

    It was a blatant lie of the first order, cost much blood and treasure, and the knock-on effects were horrendous.

    All because Tony was utterly dazzled by American power, and simply could not say no to Bush. Even the Americans were surprised by just how overcome Tony was.

    I never voted for Blair, really loathed him when he was in power. He possibly was dazzled by US power, but I still think his view was sincere. He believed Saddam was a genuine threat and needed to be dealt with, and he took a decision that must be heavy on his conscience. Many people here in the UK at the time agreed. With hindsight it was probably a bad decision, and perhaps appeasement (yes that is what it would have been) would have been better, but without a parallel universe we will never know.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Yes, the old economy 7, cheap electricity at night to heat concrete blocks in ugly cabinets.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    Strange lack of attention for what I believe is the first British world champion in the 4 belt era, perhaps he was waving the wrong flag after the match. A world title fight on the castle esplanade would be cool tho’.


    More like few care about boxing but you would have to see it in the most possible negative light...
    Pay per view on a random web/app only channel in the middle of the night are all big factors too. Fantastic achievement though, well done Josh!.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    So we are replacing gas boilers with electric ones, at the same time as forcing everyone to buy electric cars.

    Where’s all the extra electricity coming from?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    edited May 2021

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    no such thing as suck, ask a physicist. Induction hobs are pretty good, as responsive as Gas in my opinion.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    My brother-in-law's new build (in Ireland) is very comfortably warm with a heat pump alone. I reckon you could mandate all new builds to be built to a standard that included heat pumps for heating. The technology is there.

    For existing houses, not so much, but that's why people are developing things like the microwave boiler. Give people a problem to fix and they will come up with multiple solutions. Exciting times.
    We have just done one in a large house, the client hates it, they were expecting something like a boiler, its nothing like that, there is so much pipework and equipment and it just provides background heat. The pump uses the heat in the outside air and ground so on a very cold day they will struggle to warm a house. The idea that you could retrofit current three bed semis with heat pumps is a non starter.

    We are certainly not recommending them at the moment. They are eye wateringly expensive, usually 5 times the cost of a boiler and do not work anywhere near as well in heating a house.
    You shouldn't struggle to heat the house if the air is cold if the pump (and heating system) has been sized correctly... However in my experience this often requires multiple heat pumps or a 3-phase power supply for a large retrofit.
    Genuine question as I know little of heat pumps

    If a I gather heat pumps extract heat from the outside air to warm the inside of the house then what is the effect of densely packed housing in london say on the outside air temperature when all homes are busy sucking the heat out the air?
    Shouldn't really be a problem. At the end of the day you're taking the latent heat out of the air in the same way a fridge takes the latent heat out of your sausages and dumps the heat in your kitchen, and there's a lot of air.

    Heat pumps do have requirements in terms of how much empty space you need in front of them. You can't put them on a side wall, facing another building that is close by, for example.
    Which was sort of what I was getting at, its a reverse refrigerator and while there is a lot of air 27 million homes all merrily refrigerating it , just wondering on what effect if any it will have or if any one has even calculated it?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    Pulpstar said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh, and on boilers - a boiler that only works on natural gas won't be much use when there is hydrogen coming out of the pipe.

    How/when exactly will we switch over from natural gas to hydrogen - or is it an entirely new network of pipes ?
    I don't have an issue with burning hydrogen to warm my house but forsee difficulties in a national switchover.
    I also have lots of engineering questions…
    The only way I can think to do it is to mandate that new boilers have to be "hydrogen ready" in say 2024, you then mandate that people with boilers in let's say ooh 2035 have to switch by 2040 at which point you have a hard switchover on the system.
    Human led climate change is a long term, VERY long term issue - a few years here or there in a country like the UK won't make much odds and measures will be more accepted if stuff like this is done gradually.
    Hydrogen embrittlement says hello.

    Running hydrogen though domestic plumbing will be errrrr... interesting. Among other fun features, hydrogen can "leak" through solid materials.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    We're catching up with the USA on fully vaccinated. Around 5% behind.

    There's definitely been a pretty big pick up in the second dose rate here and a small slowdown in the US as many areas approach demand satisfaction. I think we'll set the single day record this week for total numbers and possibly even the weekly record this week and then again next week as the government tries to get through as many second doses in groups 1-9 as possible before 7th of June.
    I was able to bring my second jab forward by 21 days. I realise that epidemiologically it's better for me to wait but as I had to change the appt anyway (due to a clash with my son's school) I thought I might as well get it out of the way. Will still be eight weeks or so between jabs.
    Today is Jab 1 + 9 weeks for me. Still no message from Bozo inviting me to bring my second appointment forward.
    I didn't get a message, I had to change my original appointment anyway – and when I did so was offered a slot much sooner. Try it!
    I had a look, and the first thing I would need to do is cancel my appointment. I didn't want to do that in case I got shunted even further back.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Curious report in the Guardian that omits (by orders of magnitude) the most populous country in SE Asia:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/24/south-east-asian-countries-battle-covid-resurgence-amid-lack-of-vaccines

    The real reason that Thailand haven't vaccinated is corruption (no surprise to those of us on the inside). For months there has been a massive squabble about who is getting the vaccine contract because they know it is worth mega $$$.

    The Guardian won't of course report this. It reminds me of that wonderful comment by John Sentamu: the ultimate white liberal's worst nightmare is telling a black person they're wrong :smiley:
    Interesting that AZ vaccine manufacturer in Thailand is scheduled to deliver their first batch in June.
    https://www.astrazeneca.com/country-sites/thailand/press-relaese/thai20210428.html#:~:text=Bangkok, 28 April 2021 – AstraZeneca's,in June of this year.
    Hello. Back again. Start the week with a trip to the gym!

    AIUI June 1st was always the plan. At least, according tom my family there. Been blown a bit off course by a recent spike, due to (see earlier) refugees from Myanmar.
    I haven't, I must confess, tried to see what the situation is there. Always assuming anyone has anywhere near accurate figures.
    Spoke to a friend in Bangkok at the weekend. Pretty bad

    Cases and deaths are ticking along, nothing explosive, but enough to hinder plans to reopen. And tourism has been demolished

    Meanwhile the vaccine roll-out is a mess, because corruption
    Yep, granddaughter's school ..... they all go to the same one...... isn't expected to re-open before Mid August, which is when the term should re-start.

    As you say, tourism is demolished. Even internal tourism, which wasn't doing too badly.

    Will be speaking to son at the weekend, and might well find out more.
    I don't know how a place like Bangkok can survive without tourism.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Clean fuel biomass also
    Biomass requires storage space - that doesn't exist in a lot of places.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    An even bigger liar than Boris won three consecutive General Elections though, didn't he?

    Given the success of Boris and "Bliar" I doubt there's going to be much incentive for honest politicians going forwards.
    Yes I never voted for TB. And I agree there's no incentive for honest politicians.

    I think it's a shame. Others celebrate it as it's "their" liar currently in power.
    It is a sad state of affairs that there are a significant number of people that think having a demonstrably dishonest person for their leader is OK providing they win elections. I loathed Blair, but I think he was honest compared to Johnson. Blair was a dissembler and a purveyor of half truths, which is not uncommon among politicians. Personally I think it unnecessary in any walk of life. Johnson has gulled some people (indeed quite a lot) into believing lying is perfectly acceptable, because that is the way he has always lived his life, and to him it is as normal as cleaning his teeth. The country will eventually pay a price for it, if it hasn't already.
    The Iraq war was not a half truth.

    It was a blatant lie of the first order, cost much blood and treasure, and the knock-on effects were horrendous.

    All because Tony was utterly dazzled by American power, and simply could not say no to Bush. Even the Americans were surprised by just how overcome Tony was.

    I never voted for Blair, really loathed him when he was in power. He possibly was dazzled by US power, but I still think his view was sincere. He believed Saddam was a genuine threat and needed to be dealt with, and he took a decision that must be heavy on his conscience. Many people here in the UK at the time agreed. With hindsight it was probably a bad decision, and perhaps appeasement (yes that is what it would have been) would have been better, but without a parallel universe we will never know.
    Has anyone ever polled the Iraqis on whether they'd prefer Saddam (or his sons) to still be in power?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Sit tight until the network switches from natural gas to hydrogen.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    .
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    What are people who don't have much money supposed to do?
    Same question to you.

    If you do not agree with this policy, if you do not agree with net zero by 2050, who represents you?
    Labour would probably try and bring the date for this nonsense forward.
    And the lib dems are greener than the greens.

    Even Tice & Lozza are on board I think.

    That is the extent to which the green lobby utterly dominate.
    Steve Baker and a few other of the Tory usual suspects are on the side of the working man here. Obviously that's not nearly enough.
    Who do you think will get the work fitting all the new boilers? ;)
    Dido Harding?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Clean fuel biomass also
    Biomass requires storage space - that doesn't exist in a lot of places.
    You don't need tons of storage space for a 3-bedroom terraced house. A pellet store the size of a wheelie bin or two would work.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    BluestBlue keeps saying the same thing no matter how many times you, me or others tell him/her that he is completely missing the point being made. This is not about electoral success. This is a moral issue. And yes we all know that politicians lie and mislead, but it is the degree and ease with which he does it.

    I give you the example of Michael Howard in that infamous Paxman interview. Michael Howard tried to mislead by avoiding answering the question but would not outright lie. He got crucified for doing so. He could easily have lied and got away with it.

    What would Boris have done?
    The intelligent thing.

    I forget, are you a Liberal Democrat? How fortunate that none of your leaders have ever been caught in a lie or gone back on a cast-iron pledge to the public...
    Or stood trial for conspiracy to murder at the Old Bailey
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    We're catching up with the USA on fully vaccinated. Around 5% behind.

    There's definitely been a pretty big pick up in the second dose rate here and a small slowdown in the US as many areas approach demand satisfaction. I think we'll set the single day record this week for total numbers and possibly even the weekly record this week and then again next week as the government tries to get through as many second doses in groups 1-9 as possible before 7th of June.
    I was able to bring my second jab forward by 21 days. I realise that epidemiologically it's better for me to wait but as I had to change the appt anyway (due to a clash with my son's school) I thought I might as well get it out of the way. Will still be eight weeks or so between jabs.
    Today is Jab 1 + 9 weeks for me. Still no message from Bozo inviting me to bring my second appointment forward.
    I didn't get a message, I had to change my original appointment anyway – and when I did so was offered a slot much sooner. Try it!
    I had a look, and the first thing I would need to do is cancel my appointment. I didn't want to do that in case I got shunted even further back.
    It literally took me two minutes, the very next page offers you a new date – and mine were three weeks ahead...
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited May 2021

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Valerie Vaz questioning how ill Boris Johnson was.

    Starmer needs to kick her out of the party right now.

    Why? BlowJob is a proven liar...I believe very little he has to say.
    There are none so blind as those who cannot see. Seen any UFOs recently?
    Are you suggesting Johnson only speaks the truth?

    Can I interest you in a £53m invisible garden bridge and this £30,000 roll of wallpaper?
    No just suggesting someone who believes everything Boris says is a lie is about as ridiculous as the rest of the lefties on here who think similarly
    All politicians lie..
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    24th May. 1pm. Central London

    10C and hail
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    BluestBlue keeps saying the same thing no matter how many times you, me or others tell him/her that he is completely missing the point being made. This is not about electoral success. This is a moral issue. And yes we all know that politicians lie and mislead, but it is the degree and ease with which he does it.

    I give you the example of Michael Howard in that infamous Paxman interview. Michael Howard tried to mislead by avoiding answering the question but would not outright lie. He got crucified for doing so. He could easily have lied and got away with it.

    What would Boris have done?
    The intelligent thing.

    I forget, are you a Liberal Democrat? How fortunate that none of your leaders have ever been caught in a lie or gone back on a cast-iron pledge to the public...
    I think I made the point that politicians lie didn't I? As usual justifying your position by pointing out that others also do it. I'll just pop down and rob a bank then, after all others have.

    The intelligent thing and not the right thing? You are all right with this if they are different? Intelligent for what aim: Winning elections or doing the right thing?

    The point is Boris's track record is appalling on this front and that is the issue and you don't seem to have any issue with that at all. I can't think of a single Tory leader or any party leader in my time who comes close.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Yes, the old economy 7, cheap electricity at night to heat concrete blocks in ugly cabinets.
    No, you’re confused. That’s storage heaters. I’m talking about electric boilers.

    https://www.heatraesadia.com/products/heating-and-ventilation/electric-flow-boilers
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    edited May 2021
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Yes, the old economy 7, cheap electricity at night to heat concrete blocks in ugly cabinets.
    No, you’re confused. That’s storage heaters. I’m talking about electric boilers.

    https://www.heatraesadia.com/products/heating-and-ventilation/electric-flow-boilers
    ...I was never confused....
    :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    Leon said:

    24th May. 1pm. Central London

    10C and hail

    You're allowed out to the Algarve you know :D
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited May 2021

    Pulpstar said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh, and on boilers - a boiler that only works on natural gas won't be much use when there is hydrogen coming out of the pipe.

    How/when exactly will we switch over from natural gas to hydrogen - or is it an entirely new network of pipes ?
    I don't have an issue with burning hydrogen to warm my house but forsee difficulties in a national switchover.
    I also have lots of engineering questions…
    The only way I can think to do it is to mandate that new boilers have to be "hydrogen ready" in say 2024, you then mandate that people with boilers in let's say ooh 2035 have to switch by 2040 at which point you have a hard switchover on the system.
    Human led climate change is a long term, VERY long term issue - a few years here or there in a country like the UK won't make much odds and measures will be more accepted if stuff like this is done gradually.
    Hydrogen embrittlement says hello.

    Running hydrogen though domestic plumbing will be errrrr... interesting. Among other fun features, hydrogen can "leak" through solid materials.
    Pure hydrogen is horrible stuff to transport, anything like a national pipe infrastructure would be prohibitively expensive to construct.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Yes, the old economy 7, cheap electricity at night to heat concrete blocks in ugly cabinets.
    No, you’re confused. That’s storage heaters. I’m talking about electric boilers.

    https://www.heatraesadia.com/products/heating-and-ventilation/electric-flow-boilers
    Yup. It's this kind of stuff that is the future.

    No need for a gas engineer for one, so cheaper to maintain. The technology is old as time. Efficiency doesn't matter if electricity is cheap.

    Government policy should be to focus on a secure and cheap renewable electricity supply.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Nope. It's shite.

    "It's easier to clean," yada yada yada. But it's far more difficult to cook on and hard to quickly ascertain how hot it is. And techie buttons. Eek. Awful. Very few keen cooks favour electric hobs – with good reason.

    Oh, and you know that saucepan collection you have built up over the years at great expense? Useless on induction...
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Yes, the old economy 7, cheap electricity at night to heat concrete blocks in ugly cabinets.
    No, you’re confused. That’s storage heaters. I’m talking about electric boilers.

    https://www.heatraesadia.com/products/heating-and-ventilation/electric-flow-boilers
    ...I was never confused....

    I wasn’t talking about Economy 7 so clearly you were.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Dura_Ace said:

    My brother-in-law's new build (in Ireland) is very comfortably warm with a heat pump alone. I reckon you could mandate all new builds to be built to a standard that included heat pumps for heating. The technology is there.

    My house in France (in Bretagne so not exactly a benign climate) has a Viessmann GSHP which works fine. I can get 70 deg system temperature at zero deg ambient. The 10kw solar array can run it flat out during the day. Retrofitting one in an existing house would be an absolute pain in the dick though. You also need a very well insulated and glazed house to get the best out of them.
    I never could understand why camp sites in Brittany have wonderful outdoor pool complexes - I had a house in Normandy and very rarely did I use an outdoor pool
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Nope. It's shite.

    "It's easier to clean," yada yada yada. But it's far more difficult to cook on and hard to quickly ascertain how hot it is. And techie buttons. Eek. Awful. Very few keen cooks favour electric hobs – with good reason.

    Oh, and you know that saucepan collection you have built up over the years at great expense? Useless on induction...
    Well I like induction.

    All my pans are induction compatible in any case.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    24th May. 1pm. Central London

    10C and hail

    You know I have been saying for weeks there will be a pattern change on or around 26 May. Well, have you actually looked at the weather forecast Leon?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Mr. Divvie, it's not so much an argument as a statement of fact.

    The period he's referring to is the 2nd century AD, specifically the consecutive reigns of Hadrian and Antoninus Pius (the lesser known Antonine Wall being further north).

    Great Britain, as it is now, had neither the English nor the Scots at that time. It had Picts in the north and Celts elsewhere.

    Mr. Dancer, you cannot debate historical fact with Scottish Nationalists. They have alternative facts when it comes to history. You and I would call them lies, or at best, distortions. They are the flat earthers of British politics. They have a belief in their own exceptionalism, and history (as they write it), proves them correct, or so they believe.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Nope. It's shite.

    "It's easier to clean," yada yada yada. But it's far more difficult to cook on and hard to quickly ascertain how hot it is. And techie buttons. Eek. Awful. Very few keen cooks favour electric hobs – with good reason.

    Oh, and you know that saucepan collection you have built up over the years at great expense? Useless on induction...
    Yup, gas is much better.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Chair of the Foreign Affairs Ctte of the National Assembly calls for the EU Transport Commissioner to resign:

    https://twitter.com/quatremer/status/1396785983065141248?s=20
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Yes, the old economy 7, cheap electricity at night to heat concrete blocks in ugly cabinets.
    No, you’re confused. That’s storage heaters. I’m talking about electric boilers.

    https://www.heatraesadia.com/products/heating-and-ventilation/electric-flow-boilers
    ...I was never confused....

    I wasn’t talking about Economy 7 so clearly you were.
    omg...I was joking...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    edited May 2021
    Taz said:

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Nope. It's shite.

    "It's easier to clean," yada yada yada. But it's far more difficult to cook on and hard to quickly ascertain how hot it is. And techie buttons. Eek. Awful. Very few keen cooks favour electric hobs – with good reason.

    Oh, and you know that saucepan collection you have built up over the years at great expense? Useless on induction...
    Yup, gas is much better.
    These are the words of people who refuse to try and learn another technology.

    Once you get used to it, you'll struggle to use gas, and vice versa.

    My girlfriend is used to induction and absolutely hates using my gas hobs.

    It's simply a case of learning something new.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Valerie Vaz questioning how ill Boris Johnson was.

    Starmer needs to kick her out of the party right now.

    Why? BlowJob is a proven liar...I believe very little he has to say.
    There are none so blind as those who cannot see. Seen any UFOs recently?
    Are you suggesting Johnson only speaks the truth?

    Can I interest you in a £53m invisible garden bridge and this £30,000 roll of wallpaper?
    No just suggesting someone who believes everything Boris says is a lie is about as ridiculous as the rest of the lefties on here who think similarly
    All politicians lie..
    I am not a "leftie", I am a centrist.

    @Scott_xP and @TSE seem (by the content of their posts on here) unconvinced by Johnson's standards of probity. Assuming that is the case, does that make them "lefties" too?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Mr. Foremain, well, I believe in being fair. And just as I don't let Mr. Eagles get away with his many historical mistakes, nor should others be permitted to do so.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    An even bigger liar than Boris won three consecutive General Elections though, didn't he?

    Given the success of Boris and "Bliar" I doubt there's going to be much incentive for honest politicians going forwards.
    Yes I never voted for TB. And I agree there's no incentive for honest politicians.

    I think it's a shame. Others celebrate it as it's "their" liar currently in power.
    It is a sad state of affairs that there are a significant number of people that think having a demonstrably dishonest person for their leader is OK providing they win elections. I loathed Blair, but I think he was honest compared to Johnson. Blair was a dissembler and a purveyor of half truths, which is not uncommon among politicians. Personally I think it unnecessary in any walk of life. Johnson has gulled some people (indeed quite a lot) into believing lying is perfectly acceptable, because that is the way he has always lived his life, and to him it is as normal as cleaning his teeth. The country will eventually pay a price for it, if it hasn't already.
    The Iraq war was not a half truth.

    It was a blatant lie of the first order, cost much blood and treasure, and the knock-on effects were horrendous.

    All because Tony was utterly dazzled by American power, and simply could not say no to Bush. Even the Americans were surprised by just how overcome Tony was.

    I never voted for Blair, really loathed him when he was in power. He possibly was dazzled by US power, but I still think his view was sincere. He believed Saddam was a genuine threat and needed to be dealt with, and he took a decision that must be heavy on his conscience. Many people here in the UK at the time agreed. With hindsight it was probably a bad decision, and perhaps appeasement (yes that is what it would have been) would have been better, but without a parallel universe we will never know.
    Not just many people, a clear majority. A big yougov poll at the time was 54-38 in support of the war. They just don't like admitting it nowadays, not sure if that is admitting it publicly or if they have actually convinced themselves they were against it all the time.

    I was in favour of the war, but wouldn't have been if I'd known had badly the allies would deal with the reconstruction. In the hypothetical that the allies had put in as much effort to reconstruction as they did the war, then I think, on balance, it would have been the least worst course of action. None of the options were good ones.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Taz said:

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Nope. It's shite.

    "It's easier to clean," yada yada yada. But it's far more difficult to cook on and hard to quickly ascertain how hot it is. And techie buttons. Eek. Awful. Very few keen cooks favour electric hobs – with good reason.

    Oh, and you know that saucepan collection you have built up over the years at great expense? Useless on induction...
    Yup, gas is much better.
    These are the words of people who refuse to try and learn another technology.

    Once you get used to it, you'll struggle to use gas, and vice versa.

    My girlfriend is used to induction and absolutely hates using my gas hobs.

    It's simply a case of learning something new.

    Ha ha, I’ve cooked both. I prefer gas. That’s all there is to it.

    Still, thanks for sharing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh, and on boilers - a boiler that only works on natural gas won't be much use when there is hydrogen coming out of the pipe.

    How/when exactly will we switch over from natural gas to hydrogen - or is it an entirely new network of pipes ?
    I don't have an issue with burning hydrogen to warm my house but forsee difficulties in a national switchover.
    I also have lots of engineering questions…
    The only way I can think to do it is to mandate that new boilers have to be "hydrogen ready" in say 2024, you then mandate that people with boilers in let's say ooh 2035 have to switch by 2040 at which point you have a hard switchover on the system.
    Human led climate change is a long term, VERY long term issue - a few years here or there in a country like the UK won't make much odds and measures will be more accepted if stuff like this is done gradually.
    Hydrogen embrittlement says hello.

    Running hydrogen though domestic plumbing will be errrrr... interesting. Among other fun features, hydrogen can "leak" through solid materials.
    Pure hydrogen is horrible stuff to transport, anything like a national pipe infrastructure would be prohibitively expensive to construct.
    I went through the Hydrogen comedy, when working for an oil company.

    Read "Ignition!" and Ben Rich's memoirs as a start.

    Then the rules that all civilised countries have on how you are allowed to play with Hydrogen.

    The read the reasons behind those rules - generally, previous explosions and fires.

    Then, when someone says "We need to get the rules on Hydrogen safety relaxed so that we can..."..... just beat them to death at that point. It's a mercy killing really..
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    BluestBlue keeps saying the same thing no matter how many times you, me or others tell him/her that he is completely missing the point being made. This is not about electoral success. This is a moral issue. And yes we all know that politicians lie and mislead, but it is the degree and ease with which he does it.

    I give you the example of Michael Howard in that infamous Paxman interview. Michael Howard tried to mislead by avoiding answering the question but would not outright lie. He got crucified for doing so. He could easily have lied and got away with it.

    What would Boris have done?
    The intelligent thing.

    I forget, are you a Liberal Democrat? How fortunate that none of your leaders have ever been caught in a lie or gone back on a cast-iron pledge to the public...
    Oh and just for the record:

    I think Chris Huhne was a prat for lying about his driving offence and if you are referring to tuition fees well you can't implement something if you don't have control over the implementation of it, but even so that was also the wrong thing to have agreed to in the negotiations.

    So there you go I don't approve of these lies and unlike you I am happy to admit it or maybe I am more moral than you.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    An even bigger liar than Boris won three consecutive General Elections though, didn't he?

    Given the success of Boris and "Bliar" I doubt there's going to be much incentive for honest politicians going forwards.
    Yes I never voted for TB. And I agree there's no incentive for honest politicians.

    I think it's a shame. Others celebrate it as it's "their" liar currently in power.
    It is a sad state of affairs that there are a significant number of people that think having a demonstrably dishonest person for their leader is OK providing they win elections. I loathed Blair, but I think he was honest compared to Johnson. Blair was a dissembler and a purveyor of half truths, which is not uncommon among politicians. Personally I think it unnecessary in any walk of life. Johnson has gulled some people (indeed quite a lot) into believing lying is perfectly acceptable, because that is the way he has always lived his life, and to him it is as normal as cleaning his teeth. The country will eventually pay a price for it, if it hasn't already.
    The Iraq war was not a half truth.

    It was a blatant lie of the first order, cost much blood and treasure, and the knock-on effects were horrendous.

    All because Tony was utterly dazzled by American power, and simply could not say no to Bush. Even the Americans were surprised by just how overcome Tony was.

    I never voted for Blair, really loathed him when he was in power. He possibly was dazzled by US power, but I still think his view was sincere. He believed Saddam was a genuine threat and needed to be dealt with, and he took a decision that must be heavy on his conscience. Many people here in the UK at the time agreed. With hindsight it was probably a bad decision, and perhaps appeasement (yes that is what it would have been) would have been better, but without a parallel universe we will never know.
    Not just many people, a clear majority. A big yougov poll at the time was 54-38 in support of the war. They just don't like admitting it nowadays, not sure if that is admitting it publicly or if they have actually convinced themselves they were against it all the time.

    I was in favour of the war, but wouldn't have been if I'd known had badly the allies would deal with the reconstruction. In the hypothetical that the allies had put in as much effort to reconstruction as they did the war, then I think, on balance, it would have been the least worst course of action. None of the options were good ones.
    But this support for the war was based on the lies that came from the govt.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    edited May 2021
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Nope. It's shite.

    "It's easier to clean," yada yada yada. But it's far more difficult to cook on and hard to quickly ascertain how hot it is. And techie buttons. Eek. Awful. Very few keen cooks favour electric hobs – with good reason.

    Oh, and you know that saucepan collection you have built up over the years at great expense? Useless on induction...
    Yup, gas is much better.
    These are the words of people who refuse to try and learn another technology.

    Once you get used to it, you'll struggle to use gas, and vice versa.

    My girlfriend is used to induction and absolutely hates using my gas hobs.

    It's simply a case of learning something new.

    Ha ha, I’ve cooked both. I prefer gas. That’s all there is to it.

    Still, thanks for sharing.
    With induction, there's no guessing what heat something needs to be — maybe the right heat is somewhere on this analogue dial of arbitrariness.

    With induction, you know if the pan needs to be on "6", or "3", or "9". Easy.

    Also I've cooked on both, and I prefer induction. So thanks for sharing too.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,149
    edited May 2021
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    Boris heading for a Poll Tax moment?
    If so, well deserved. This is a terrible plan.
    The key is a long-term strategy over a decade or two, linked in to Stamp Duty (or whatever will hopefully replace it). So that it is incentivised.
    The eco lobby will tell you we can’t wait that long, it will be too late.
    I don't think the Eco lobby are driving this any more.

    It is now mainstream, and they blew their chance to be realistic.

    Scotland is being quite sensible on this, having a long term ratchet on owner occupiers to move their houses to be well-insulated etc by about 2040 (I think).

    I think funding will always be available for people of limited means - eg on an income related benefit - as is always done now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    I must say I prefer induction, the speed at which you can get a pan full of water to boil is quite something.
    OK So if you're wanting to toss a wok full of stir-fry around then it's not going to cut it - heat when you lift a pan is probably why pro chefs prefer gas but how many of us really require that level of flame ?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Gas is very safe these days because all hobs come with thermocouples which prevent gas from being supplied to a burner when it isn't lit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    24th May. 1pm. Central London

    10C and hail

    You know I have been saying for weeks there will be a pattern change on or around 26 May. Well, have you actually looked at the weather forecast Leon?
    Fingers x’d

    The predicted heatwave has now disappeared but if it just reverts to average that will be fine

    This is just grisly right now. Endless cold and wet
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Need to be some efficiency not to bankrupt you given difference in gas and electricity prices.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,001

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    BluestBlue keeps saying the same thing no matter how many times you, me or others tell him/her that he is completely missing the point being made. This is not about electoral success. This is a moral issue. And yes we all know that politicians lie and mislead, but it is the degree and ease with which he does it.

    I give you the example of Michael Howard in that infamous Paxman interview. Michael Howard tried to mislead by avoiding answering the question but would not outright lie. He got crucified for doing so. He could easily have lied and got away with it.

    What would Boris have done?
    The intelligent thing.

    I forget, are you a Liberal Democrat? How fortunate that none of your leaders have ever been caught in a lie or gone back on a cast-iron pledge to the public...
    Personally, I think that was badly wrong and a colossal mistake. Not just for the electoral damage, but for what it did to the trust of the electorate in all politicians.

    Don't you agree?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Nope. It's shite.

    "It's easier to clean," yada yada yada. But it's far more difficult to cook on and hard to quickly ascertain how hot it is. And techie buttons. Eek. Awful. Very few keen cooks favour electric hobs – with good reason.

    Oh, and you know that saucepan collection you have built up over the years at great expense? Useless on induction...
    Yup, gas is much better.
    These are the words of people who refuse to try and learn another technology.

    Once you get used to it, you'll struggle to use gas, and vice versa.

    My girlfriend is used to induction and absolutely hates using my gas hobs.

    It's simply a case of learning something new.

    Ha ha, I’ve cooked both. I prefer gas. That’s all there is to it.

    Still, thanks for sharing.
    With induction, there's no guessing what heat something needs to be — maybe the right heat is somewhere on this analogue dial of arbitrariness.

    With induction, you know if the pan needs to be on "6", or "3", or "9". Easy.

    Also I've cooked on both, and I prefer induction. So thanks for sharing too.
    Yeah, but I’m not the one making snide digs at you or your preference.

    I’m aware of how to operate an induction hob and how the settings work too.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    @Anabobazina

    "All professional kitchens use gas" = fake news

    “I love our big induction range – I’d never go back to gas,” declares James Ramsden, food writer and co-proprietor of the Michelin-starred East London restaurant Pidgin.

    Ramsden says amateur cooks can create culinary wonders even on a smaller induction hob. “Once you get the hang of them, they’re far easier than cooking on gas or electric.”

    Chefs love induction cooking because of the extremely fast heating and precise heat control provided through a high-performance glass-ceramic surface.

    Also, induction technology warms the pan and not the surface or surrounding area, so very little heat escapes into the room. Keeping the temperature cool in the restaurant kitchen is a big benefit.

    Renowned Australian Chef Neil Perry was one of the first to adopt induction hobs in his award-winning restaurants’ kitchens, Rockpool Bar & Grill, Spice Temple and Rosetta. He talks about induction cooking in a GoodFood article.


    https://eurokera.com/blog/professional-chefs-love-induction-cooking-and-you-should-too/

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    MaxPB said:

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Gas is very safe these days because all hobs come with thermocouples which prevent gas from being supplied to a burner when it isn't lit.
    Aye but the flame is still hot when its lit
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Strange lack of attention for what I believe is the first British world champion in the 4 belt era, perhaps he was waving the wrong flag after the match. A world title fight on the castle esplanade would be cool tho’.

    More like few care about boxing but you would have to see it in the most possible negative light...
    Funny, the media has been wanking themselves silly about the on-off Joshua v Fury fight which would have resulted in the first British 4 belt world champion.

    That’s not going to happen now of course. Shame.
    It will hopefully still happen. Heavyweight boxing is the only class of boxing a lot of people care about. If this guy you're talking about ever makes it as a Heavyweight boxer then people will start to care.

    Saying that there's an alternative division is like saying that Norwich City (Champions champions) or Hull City (League One champions) got more points than Man City so are the true champions in football this season.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    A Black Lives Matter activist shot in the head when gang members opened fire on partygoers was "caught in the firing line", a friend says.

    It is not believed Oxford graduate Sasha Johnson, 27, was the "intended victim" of the drive-by shooting, which left her in a critical condition in hospital, said friend and fellow activist Imarn Ayton.

    It is thought a "dispute" between rival gangs led to the shooting as the mum-of-three and others gathered in a garden in Peckham, south-east London, just before 3am on Sunday.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/black-lives-matter-activist-shot-24171748.amp?__twitter_impression=true
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    Pulpstar said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh, and on boilers - a boiler that only works on natural gas won't be much use when there is hydrogen coming out of the pipe.

    How/when exactly will we switch over from natural gas to hydrogen - or is it an entirely new network of pipes ?
    I don't have an issue with burning hydrogen to warm my house but forsee difficulties in a national switchover.
    I also have lots of engineering questions…
    The only way I can think to do it is to mandate that new boilers have to be "hydrogen ready" in say 2024, you then mandate that people with boilers in let's say ooh 2035 have to switch by 2040 at which point you have a hard switchover on the system.
    Human led climate change is a long term, VERY long term issue - a few years here or there in a country like the UK won't make much odds and measures will be more accepted if stuff like this is done gradually.
    Hydrogen embrittlement says hello.

    Running hydrogen though domestic plumbing will be errrrr... interesting. Among other fun features, hydrogen can "leak" through solid materials.
    Hydrogen gas is H2, how does that tunnel?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,149
    edited May 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    My brother-in-law's new build (in Ireland) is very comfortably warm with a heat pump alone. I reckon you could mandate all new builds to be built to a standard that included heat pumps for heating. The technology is there.

    For existing houses, not so much, but that's why people are developing things like the microwave boiler. Give people a problem to fix and they will come up with multiple solutions. Exciting times.
    We have just done one in a large house, the client hates it, they were expecting something like a boiler, its nothing like that, there is so much pipework and equipment and it just provides background heat. The pump uses the heat in the outside air and ground so on a very cold day they will struggle to warm a house. The idea that you could retrofit current three bed semis with heat pumps is a non starter.

    We are certainly not recommending them at the moment. They are eye wateringly expensive, usually 5 times the cost of a boiler and do not work anywhere near as well in heating a house.
    You shouldn't struggle to heat the house if the air is cold if the pump (and heating system) has been sized correctly... However in my experience this often requires multiple heat pumps or a 3-phase power supply for a large retrofit.
    Three phase power is sensible for charging 2 cars, anyway, these days - if you have the chance.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593

    @Anabobazina

    "All professional kitchens use gas" = fake news

    “I love our big induction range – I’d never go back to gas,” declares James Ramsden, food writer and co-proprietor of the Michelin-starred East London restaurant Pidgin.

    Ramsden says amateur cooks can create culinary wonders even on a smaller induction hob. “Once you get the hang of them, they’re far easier than cooking on gas or electric.”

    Chefs love induction cooking because of the extremely fast heating and precise heat control provided through a high-performance glass-ceramic surface.

    Also, induction technology warms the pan and not the surface or surrounding area, so very little heat escapes into the room. Keeping the temperature cool in the restaurant kitchen is a big benefit.

    Renowned Australian Chef Neil Perry was one of the first to adopt induction hobs in his award-winning restaurants’ kitchens, Rockpool Bar & Grill, Spice Temple and Rosetta. He talks about induction cooking in a GoodFood article.


    https://eurokera.com/blog/professional-chefs-love-induction-cooking-and-you-should-too/

    Absolutely true - and these are the people to talk to in the UK. https://www.controlinduction.co.uk/
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Need to be some efficiency not to bankrupt you given difference in gas and electricity prices.
    They’re small volume at the moment. I’m sure with time that would improve but it’s a step change.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Switch on WATO. Banging on about the BBC. Switch off.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    An even bigger liar than Boris won three consecutive General Elections though, didn't he?

    Given the success of Boris and "Bliar" I doubt there's going to be much incentive for honest politicians going forwards.
    After thinking about it, I don't consider Blair a bigger liar than Johnson. I accept WMD, and going to war in Iraq was a dreadful and incredibly foolish thing to do, it seems now. Incidentally, thinking about that, I wonder what Saddam would have done if the US hadn't attacked. I suspect life for many (NOT all) Iraqis would be better than it is now.

    But Johnson lies routinely and persistently. And always has done.
    Indeed, it is an important distinction. I think Blair genuinely thought there were WMDs, and indeed most people did, including the intelligence services. The "dodgy dossier" was definitely "sexed up", but it was not necessarily a total lie.
    Boris Johnson clearly is a pathological liar. He can't help himself. Ultimately it may well cause the country a lot of problems. Those that enthusiastically support him (the real fanbois, as opposed to those who believe he is simply a better offering than Labour) are essentially telling us something about their own morality, in the same way those that support Salmond do.
    No it was demonstrably a total lie because even though Iraq was occupied, no WMDs were ever found. Blair did not care whether there were WMDs or not, the only thing he cared about was delivering British support for the venture to Bush. As he had promised in his starry-eyed visits to Washington.

    Johnson's cime in your eyes is he delivered Brexit, to which you and Andrew Adonis are pathalogically opposed.

    Watching you and him suck Brexit up in perpetuity is one of my greatest diversions.
    lol ! Oh dear, you always have to turn it back to your masturbatory obsession, Brexit!

    You aren't a "contrarian" you are just a low level follower of the far right wing herd. If you were a "contrarian" you would be far more interesting and would challenge the shibboleths of the Brexit obsessed right. Sadly for you, even by those low standards you are gullible fool who "sucks up" so much crap from the internet (including ant-vaxxer nonsense) you should change your moniker to Dyson. Maybe QAnon might be more appropriate? Watch out, you are being watched! Oooh, Bill Gates is injecting me with a tracker device!

    Nutter.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958

    Mr. Divvie, it's not so much an argument as a statement of fact.

    The period he's referring to is the 2nd century AD, specifically the consecutive reigns of Hadrian and Antoninus Pius (the lesser known Antonine Wall being further north).

    Great Britain, as it is now, had neither the English nor the Scots at that time. It had Picts in the north and Celts elsewhere.

    A clarification.

    Reproducing someone else’s silly but amusing tweet is not a statement of my views on historical fact, nor should it be used by other posters as an excuse for a pedantic and pompous oration on what is historical fact.

    Pissing in the wind on PB I know, but nevertheless..
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Valerie Vaz questioning how ill Boris Johnson was.

    Starmer needs to kick her out of the party right now.

    Why? BlowJob is a proven liar...I believe very little he has to say.
    There are none so blind as those who cannot see. Seen any UFOs recently?
    Are you suggesting Johnson only speaks the truth?

    Can I interest you in a £53m invisible garden bridge and this £30,000 roll of wallpaper?
    No just suggesting someone who believes everything Boris says is a lie is about as ridiculous as the rest of the lefties on here who think similarly
    All politicians lie..
    I am not a "leftie", I am a centrist.

    @Scott_xP and @TSE seem (by the content of their posts on here) unconvinced by Johnson's standards of probity. Assuming that is the case, does that make them "lefties" too?
    So quick to misrepresent what I said. Not everything Boris says is a lie but it suits you and others to suggest that that is the case.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited May 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    I must say I prefer induction, the speed at which you can get a pan full of water to boil is quite something.
    OK So if you're wanting to toss a wok full of stir-fry around then it's not going to cut it - heat when you lift a pan is probably why pro chefs prefer gas but how many of us really require that level of flame ?

    Love a bit of induction. So sensitive and quick

    Get frustrated with all other kinds of hob, now. Boring, slow, stupid. If you want a naked flame why don’t you cook with a fucking bonfire then, moron

    (that isn’t aimed at anyone in particular, just everyone who has any kind of job that isn’t induction)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Valerie Vaz questioning how ill Boris Johnson was.

    Starmer needs to kick her out of the party right now.

    Why? BlowJob is a proven liar...I believe very little he has to say.
    There are none so blind as those who cannot see. Seen any UFOs recently?
    Are you suggesting Johnson only speaks the truth?

    Can I interest you in a £53m invisible garden bridge and this £30,000 roll of wallpaper?
    No just suggesting someone who believes everything Boris says is a lie is about as ridiculous as the rest of the lefties on here who think similarly
    All politicians lie..
    I am not a "leftie", I am a centrist.

    @Scott_xP and @TSE seem (by the content of their posts on here) unconvinced by Johnson's standards of probity. Assuming that is the case, does that make them "lefties" too?
    So quick to misrepresent what I said. Not everything Boris says is a lie but it suits you and others to suggest that that is the case.
    I don't think anyone literally thinks everything Boris Johnson says is a lie.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited May 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Switch on WATO. Banging on about the BBC. Switch off.

    The most important story in the world right now is…. The bbc.

    Navel gazing at its worst.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 2021

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    Exactly. His detractors - many of whom have literally no grasp of political strategy - set the bar so low by calling him all the worst things under the sun that the reality can't help but exceed expectations. So as he becomes more popular they sit in stunned perplexity, learn nothing from their mistakes, and double down on the petty smears because they worked so well last time...

    Nah it's not that. He is a liar unfit for office. Nothing has changed, no bars have been set, no expectations have been met, exceeded or fallen short.

    The issue is that people like you like support him regardless of such failings which you don't think are failings at all. You think they are strengths and indeed they are electoral strengths.

    And that's fine. It's called democracy. Just as people supported Jeremy Corbyn and thought that his value system was one they wanted to see exhibited by a Prime Minister, by Prime Minister Corbyn.

    Doesn't mean that I think Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson are appropriate people to be Prime Minister.
    BluestBlue keeps saying the same thing no matter how many times you, me or others tell him/her that he is completely missing the point being made. This is not about electoral success. This is a moral issue. And yes we all know that politicians lie and mislead, but it is the degree and ease with which he does it.

    I give you the example of Michael Howard in that infamous Paxman interview. Michael Howard tried to mislead by avoiding answering the question but would not outright lie. He got crucified for doing so. He could easily have lied and got away with it.

    What would Boris have done?
    The intelligent thing.

    I forget, are you a Liberal Democrat? How fortunate that none of your leaders have ever been caught in a lie or gone back on a cast-iron pledge to the public...
    Personally, I think that was badly wrong and a colossal mistake. Not just for the electoral damage, but for what it did to the trust of the electorate in all politicians.

    Don't you agree?
    That one - tuition fees - did turn out to matter because it was the signature pledge on which the LDs had campaigned and on the basis of which they received the trust of their supporters and many of their votes. The equivalent would be Boris winning a mandate for Brexit and then plumping for Remain regardless. Which illustrates my point: lies in politics only really matter when you're hitting the core interests and expectations of the people who voted for you. Otherwise, not so much.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    dixiedean said:

    Switch on WATO. Banging on about the BBC. Switch off.

    Did they manage to get anyone from the BBC to come on the BBC to comment?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    My brother-in-law's new build (in Ireland) is very comfortably warm with a heat pump alone. I reckon you could mandate all new builds to be built to a standard that included heat pumps for heating. The technology is there.

    For existing houses, not so much, but that's why people are developing things like the microwave boiler. Give people a problem to fix and they will come up with multiple solutions. Exciting times.
    We have just done one in a large house, the client hates it, they were expecting something like a boiler, its nothing like that, there is so much pipework and equipment and it just provides background heat. The pump uses the heat in the outside air and ground so on a very cold day they will struggle to warm a house. The idea that you could retrofit current three bed semis with heat pumps is a non starter.

    We are certainly not recommending them at the moment. They are eye wateringly expensive, usually 5 times the cost of a boiler and do not work anywhere near as well in heating a house.
    You shouldn't struggle to heat the house if the air is cold if the pump (and heating system) has been sized correctly... However in my experience this often requires multiple heat pumps or a 3-phase power supply for a large retrofit.
    Genuine question as I know little of heat pumps

    If a I gather heat pumps extract heat from the outside air to warm the inside of the house then what is the effect of densely packed housing in london say on the outside air temperature when all homes are busy sucking the heat out the air?
    Shouldn't really be a problem. At the end of the day you're taking the latent heat out of the air in the same way a fridge takes the latent heat out of your sausages and dumps the heat in your kitchen, and there's a lot of air.

    Heat pumps do have requirements in terms of how much empty space you need in front of them. You can't put them on a side wall, facing another building that is close by, for example.
    Out of curiousity did the calculation

    Average floor area of a uk home is apparently 108m^2

    assume 3m height for ceilings gives us 324m^3

    weight of 1m^3 of air =1.225kg at 1 bar etc usual disclaimers

    That gives us 396.9 kg of air to heat

    choosing a random value that is not over the top of say 5 celsius we want to raise the temp by above ambient gives us 2008.314 kj

    multiply by the approximate number of homes in the uk ~27 million
    gives us
    55,224,478,000 Kj to suck out of the british air that seems a lot to me
    (15,062,355 KWh)

    Yes I am aware once up to temperature that maintaining it cost less but that is dependent on heat loss etc and more complex to calculate given all the factors for different housing than I can be bothered with.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805

    dixiedean said:

    Switch on WATO. Banging on about the BBC. Switch off.

    Did they manage to get anyone from the BBC to come on the BBC to comment?
    In fairness, they’re interviewing the main boss.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Valerie Vaz questioning how ill Boris Johnson was.

    Starmer needs to kick her out of the party right now.

    Why? BlowJob is a proven liar...I believe very little he has to say.
    There are none so blind as those who cannot see. Seen any UFOs recently?
    Are you suggesting Johnson only speaks the truth?

    Can I interest you in a £53m invisible garden bridge and this £30,000 roll of wallpaper?
    No just suggesting someone who believes everything Boris says is a lie is about as ridiculous as the rest of the lefties on here who think similarly
    All politicians lie..
    I am not a "leftie", I am a centrist.

    @Scott_xP and @TSE seem (by the content of their posts on here) unconvinced by Johnson's standards of probity. Assuming that is the case, does that make them "lefties" too?
    So quick to misrepresent what I said. Not everything Boris says is a lie but it suits you and others to suggest that that is the case.
    I agree that not what everything he says is a lie, but he lies so often it's very difficult to distinguish it. Like the boy who cried wolf.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh, and on boilers - a boiler that only works on natural gas won't be much use when there is hydrogen coming out of the pipe.

    How/when exactly will we switch over from natural gas to hydrogen - or is it an entirely new network of pipes ?
    I don't have an issue with burning hydrogen to warm my house but forsee difficulties in a national switchover.
    I also have lots of engineering questions…
    The only way I can think to do it is to mandate that new boilers have to be "hydrogen ready" in say 2024, you then mandate that people with boilers in let's say ooh 2035 have to switch by 2040 at which point you have a hard switchover on the system.
    Human led climate change is a long term, VERY long term issue - a few years here or there in a country like the UK won't make much odds and measures will be more accepted if stuff like this is done gradually.
    Hydrogen embrittlement says hello.

    Running hydrogen though domestic plumbing will be errrrr... interesting. Among other fun features, hydrogen can "leak" through solid materials.
    Hydrogen gas is H2, how does that tunnel?
    Many materials are quite porous, really. And H2 is the tinniest thing. We had tremendous fun talking with the rubber and plastics people about the leakage rate *through* materials.

    And joints that are methane tight are a complete sieve when you run hydrogen through them....
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    24th May. 1pm. Central London

    10C and hail

    You know I have been saying for weeks there will be a pattern change on or around 26 May. Well, have you actually looked at the weather forecast Leon?
    Fingers x’d

    The predicted heatwave has now disappeared but if it just reverts to average that will be fine

    This is just grisly right now. Endless cold and wet
    V heavy rain and hail.in West sussex just had hail too.. now blue sky and sunshine..
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    My brother-in-law's new build (in Ireland) is very comfortably warm with a heat pump alone. I reckon you could mandate all new builds to be built to a standard that included heat pumps for heating. The technology is there.

    For existing houses, not so much, but that's why people are developing things like the microwave boiler. Give people a problem to fix and they will come up with multiple solutions. Exciting times.
    We have just done one in a large house, the client hates it, they were expecting something like a boiler, its nothing like that, there is so much pipework and equipment and it just provides background heat. The pump uses the heat in the outside air and ground so on a very cold day they will struggle to warm a house. The idea that you could retrofit current three bed semis with heat pumps is a non starter.

    We are certainly not recommending them at the moment. They are eye wateringly expensive, usually 5 times the cost of a boiler and do not work anywhere near as well in heating a house.
    You shouldn't struggle to heat the house if the air is cold if the pump (and heating system) has been sized correctly... However in my experience this often requires multiple heat pumps or a 3-phase power supply for a large retrofit.
    Genuine question as I know little of heat pumps

    If a I gather heat pumps extract heat from the outside air to warm the inside of the house then what is the effect of densely packed housing in london say on the outside air temperature when all homes are busy sucking the heat out the air?
    Shouldn't really be a problem. At the end of the day you're taking the latent heat out of the air in the same way a fridge takes the latent heat out of your sausages and dumps the heat in your kitchen, and there's a lot of air.

    Heat pumps do have requirements in terms of how much empty space you need in front of them. You can't put them on a side wall, facing another building that is close by, for example.
    Out of curiousity did the calculation

    Average floor area of a uk home is apparently 108m^2

    assume 3m height for ceilings gives us 324m^3

    weight of 1m^3 of air =1.225kg at 1 bar etc usual disclaimers

    That gives us 396.9 kg of air to heat

    choosing a random value that is not over the top of say 5 celsius we want to raise the temp by above ambient gives us 2008.314 kj

    multiply by the approximate number of homes in the uk ~27 million
    gives us
    55,224,478,000 Kj to suck out of the british air that seems a lot to me
    (15,062,355 KWh)

    Yes I am aware once up to temperature that maintaining it cost less but that is dependent on heat loss etc and more complex to calculate given all the factors for different housing than I can be bothered with.
    If the air gets too cold, all that will happen will be that the heat pump supplements with direct electricity, lowering the efficiency.

    Although you're right that I have no idea whether such an extraction would have any climate or weather effects. Interesting thought.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    So we are replacing gas boilers with electric ones, at the same time as forcing everyone to buy electric cars.

    Where’s all the extra electricity coming from?

    Wind turbines is a big one, plus other areas.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    edited May 2021

    Taz said:

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Nope. It's shite.

    "It's easier to clean," yada yada yada. But it's far more difficult to cook on and hard to quickly ascertain how hot it is. And techie buttons. Eek. Awful. Very few keen cooks favour electric hobs – with good reason.

    Oh, and you know that saucepan collection you have built up over the years at great expense? Useless on induction...
    Yup, gas is much better.
    These are the words of people who refuse to try and learn another technology.

    Once you get used to it, you'll struggle to use gas, and vice versa.

    My girlfriend is used to induction and absolutely hates using my gas hobs.

    It's simply a case of learning something new.
    LOL – no – do you think professional chefs have all refused to try induction? The reason very few chefs use it is that Luddism is a universal character trait among chefs?

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Taz said:

    I open to new heating technologies as long as they work!

    Just as long as nobody makes me cook on an electric hob. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Yes, I include induction too: total bullshit just fancier and dearer bullshit. Gas, and gas alone, for cooking.

    Weird. I can't wait until I can afford to rip out my gas hob and get induction installed.

    Gas sucks.
    No way. Gas is by far the best – there's a reason why professional kitchens use it.
    Well I don't run a professional kitchen and induction is far safer and far easier to maintain. It is therefore better for domestic use.
    Nope. It's shite.

    "It's easier to clean," yada yada yada. But it's far more difficult to cook on and hard to quickly ascertain how hot it is. And techie buttons. Eek. Awful. Very few keen cooks favour electric hobs – with good reason.

    Oh, and you know that saucepan collection you have built up over the years at great expense? Useless on induction...
    Yup, gas is much better.
    These are the words of people who refuse to try and learn another technology.

    Once you get used to it, you'll struggle to use gas, and vice versa.

    My girlfriend is used to induction and absolutely hates using my gas hobs.

    It's simply a case of learning something new.
    LOL – no – do you think professional chefs have all refused to try induction? The reason why very few chefs use it is simply due to Luddism being a universal character trait among chefs?

    Do you have statistics on what pro chefs use? Because it appears that Michelin star restaurants are increasingly using induction, going off a quick google.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    So. After 20 minutes of naval gazing about an interview 25 years ago, the BBC turns to the forced landing of a passenger plane and arrest of a journalist.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Pulpstar said:

    I must say I prefer induction, the speed at which you can get a pan full of water to boil is quite something.
    OK So if you're wanting to toss a wok full of stir-fry around then it's not going to cut it - heat when you lift a pan is probably why pro chefs prefer gas but how many of us really require that level of flame ?


    Er, anyone who uses a wok at home? Just a few million people.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928
    edited May 2021
    snip
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    24th May. 1pm. Central London

    10C and hail

    You know I have been saying for weeks there will be a pattern change on or around 26 May. Well, have you actually looked at the weather forecast Leon?
    Fingers x’d

    The predicted heatwave has now disappeared but if it just reverts to average that will be fine

    This is just grisly right now. Endless cold and wet
    Who was predicting a heatwave? Certainly not me. Will feel very nice indeed this weekend in the strong late May sunshine.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    My brother-in-law's new build (in Ireland) is very comfortably warm with a heat pump alone. I reckon you could mandate all new builds to be built to a standard that included heat pumps for heating. The technology is there.

    For existing houses, not so much, but that's why people are developing things like the microwave boiler. Give people a problem to fix and they will come up with multiple solutions. Exciting times.
    We have just done one in a large house, the client hates it, they were expecting something like a boiler, its nothing like that, there is so much pipework and equipment and it just provides background heat. The pump uses the heat in the outside air and ground so on a very cold day they will struggle to warm a house. The idea that you could retrofit current three bed semis with heat pumps is a non starter.

    We are certainly not recommending them at the moment. They are eye wateringly expensive, usually 5 times the cost of a boiler and do not work anywhere near as well in heating a house.
    You shouldn't struggle to heat the house if the air is cold if the pump (and heating system) has been sized correctly... However in my experience this often requires multiple heat pumps or a 3-phase power supply for a large retrofit.
    Genuine question as I know little of heat pumps

    If a I gather heat pumps extract heat from the outside air to warm the inside of the house then what is the effect of densely packed housing in london say on the outside air temperature when all homes are busy sucking the heat out the air?
    Shouldn't really be a problem. At the end of the day you're taking the latent heat out of the air in the same way a fridge takes the latent heat out of your sausages and dumps the heat in your kitchen, and there's a lot of air.

    Heat pumps do have requirements in terms of how much empty space you need in front of them. You can't put them on a side wall, facing another building that is close by, for example.
    Out of curiousity did the calculation

    Average floor area of a uk home is apparently 108m^2

    assume 3m height for ceilings gives us 324m^3

    weight of 1m^3 of air =1.225kg at 1 bar etc usual disclaimers

    That gives us 396.9 kg of air to heat

    choosing a random value that is not over the top of say 5 celsius we want to raise the temp by above ambient gives us 2008.314 kj

    multiply by the approximate number of homes in the uk ~27 million
    gives us
    55,224,478,000 Kj to suck out of the british air that seems a lot to me
    (15,062,355 KWh)

    Yes I am aware once up to temperature that maintaining it cost less but that is dependent on heat loss etc and more complex to calculate given all the factors for different housing than I can be bothered with.
    If the air gets too cold, all that will happen will be that the heat pump supplements with direct electricity, lowering the efficiency.

    Although you're right that I have no idea whether such an extraction would have any climate or weather effects. Interesting thought.
    It was more unexpected climate and weather effects I was thinking of to be honest
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    @Anabobazina

    "All professional kitchens use gas" = fake news

    “I love our big induction range – I’d never go back to gas,” declares James Ramsden, food writer and co-proprietor of the Michelin-starred East London restaurant Pidgin.

    Ramsden says amateur cooks can create culinary wonders even on a smaller induction hob. “Once you get the hang of them, they’re far easier than cooking on gas or electric.”

    Chefs love induction cooking because of the extremely fast heating and precise heat control provided through a high-performance glass-ceramic surface.

    Also, induction technology warms the pan and not the surface or surrounding area, so very little heat escapes into the room. Keeping the temperature cool in the restaurant kitchen is a big benefit.

    Renowned Australian Chef Neil Perry was one of the first to adopt induction hobs in his award-winning restaurants’ kitchens, Rockpool Bar & Grill, Spice Temple and Rosetta. He talks about induction cooking in a GoodFood article.


    https://eurokera.com/blog/professional-chefs-love-induction-cooking-and-you-should-too/

    What percentage of restaurant kitchens mainline on induction hobs do you think?
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Homeowners will face hefty fines if they do not replace their old gas boilers with expensive green alternatives...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15047236/homeowners-fines-replace-gas-boilers-green/

    That story is bullshit, but I can't be bothered to explain the details of what will actually happen.
    As I said the other day the technology is not there with heat pumps. You need various cylinders to go with them so houses will need a plant room. They also just provide background heat. People are used to their radiators getting hot, that will never happen with a heat pump. On a cold day without any additional form of heating then a house will be cold. Heat pumps are not the answer.
    What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say?

    Electric boilers.

    Yes, the old economy 7, cheap electricity at night to heat concrete blocks in ugly cabinets.
    No, you’re confused. That’s storage heaters. I’m talking about electric boilers.

    https://www.heatraesadia.com/products/heating-and-ventilation/electric-flow-boilers
    Yup. It's this kind of stuff that is the future.

    No need for a gas engineer for one, so cheaper to maintain. The technology is old as time. Efficiency doesn't matter if electricity is cheap.

    Government policy should be to focus on a secure and cheap renewable electricity supply.
    Aye, there's the rub! If we were seriously considering a big roll out of next generation small modular nuclear then I'd have a bit more confidence. As things stand I strongly suspect a series of fiascos possibly leading to terrible hardship.
This discussion has been closed.