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In just three weeks there’ve been CON leads ranging between 1% and 18% in the published national pol

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited May 2021 in General
imageIn just three weeks there’ve been CON leads ranging between 1% and 18% in the published national polls – politicalbetting.com

Above is the Wikipedia table of the latest voting intention polls and as can be seen there is a huge variation between the polls. In fact the gap when looking at them from the CON lead perspective is as great as anything I have seen since establishing PB in March 2004.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    1st
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited May 2021
    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    That is shockingly bad. What incentive is there for Ryanair to play this down?

    Would the Russians, sorry, Belarusians actually have shot the plane down if it had kept flying to Vilnius? Surely not. Although it would have been a brave call for the pilot to make.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    London
    Labour 40%
    Conservative 36%

    Non-London South
    Labour 20%
    Conservative 56%

    YouGov"

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1396405016492187656
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    edited May 2021
    We may have beaten Covid but the Telegraph front page says we shall all die of cancer, and with rotten teeth, according to the Mail and Express, owing to a shortage of NHS dentists. The Star has us facing heatstroke as Bank Holiday temperatures are forecast to hit 24 degrees C.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-57223902
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Yougov certainly should be ringing a bell for Labour - B&S next month could be a welcome distraction or a nightmare for KS. My sense is that the Tories have a good bounce from the May elections and a feel good from the (so far) succesful vaccine roll out, the trouble facing Labour as they head towards Sep's Conference is just changing the leader alone doesn't win the election there is a lot of baggage to drop (or pick up) and I dont see how that can happen.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    edited May 2021

    Yougov certainly should be ringing a bell for Labour - B&S next month could be a welcome distraction or a nightmare for KS. My sense is that the Tories have a good bounce from the May elections and a feel good from the (so far) succesful vaccine roll out, the trouble facing Labour as they head towards Sep's Conference is just changing the leader alone doesn't win the election there is a lot of baggage to drop (or pick up) and I dont see how that can happen.

    The blue team is still favourite to take Batley & Spen.
    4/7 Conservative
    6/4 Labour
    100/1 bar
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    I think 1% and 18% were both outliers, 12-15% sound about right from the recent polls.

    People are getting vaccinated, things are opening up again, spring is slowly turning to summer, no-one cares about wallpaper. Life is good for the government.

    Next year, when we are still 100bn in the hole and inflation starts to run away, might be a different story.

    Maybe by then, LotO might have dropped the over-emoting Prince Harry tribute act and have some policies to talk about.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    Sandpit said:

    I think 1% and 18% were both outliers, 12-15% sound about right from the recent polls.

    People are getting vaccinated, things are opening up again, spring is slowly turning to summer, no-one cares about wallpaper. Life is good for the government.

    Next year, when we are still 100bn in the hole and inflation starts to run away, might be a different story.

    Maybe by then, LotO might have dropped the over-emoting Prince Harry tribute act and have some policies to talk about.

    It think before the locals it was probably 6%, now it looks like it is say 10% (maybe 12%). That's a big change. Maybe it is vaccinations and opening up as people demob happy, but Starmer's personal ratings have gone through the floor and not really sure why. He is still the boring lawyer he was a month ago, his image hasn't changed. If you like that, why would you think any different. That is what I can't quite work out.
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 224
    Does anyone know how we can find out ward level results for the London Mayoral results?

    It seems Bailey did really well in some outlet london wards that have been strongly Labour in recent years. Including my own.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    Nunu3 said:

    Does anyone know how we can find out ward level results for the London Mayoral results?

    It seems Bailey did really well in some outlet london wards that have been strongly Labour in recent years. Including my own.

    Not just Bailey, the Tories quietly did a bit better than people anticipated, hence Labour not controlling the assembly.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,641

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited May 2021

    Sandpit said:

    I think 1% and 18% were both outliers, 12-15% sound about right from the recent polls.

    People are getting vaccinated, things are opening up again, spring is slowly turning to summer, no-one cares about wallpaper. Life is good for the government.

    Next year, when we are still 100bn in the hole and inflation starts to run away, might be a different story.

    Maybe by then, LotO might have dropped the over-emoting Prince Harry tribute act and have some policies to talk about.

    It think before the locals it was probably 6%, now it looks like it is say 10% (maybe 12%). That's a big change. Maybe it is vaccinations and opening up as people demob happy, but Starmer's personal ratings have gone through the floor and not really sure why. He is still the boring lawyer he was a month ago, his image hasn't changed. If you like that, why would you think any different. That is what I can't quite work out.
    Is it simply that more people have seen him in the last couple of months, as the media have had to give equal coverage during the campaign?

    A pandemic is a terrible time to be a politician not in power, you can’t really oppose in the way you normally would, and the constant focus on the government doesn’t give you much coverage even when you do. It also doesn’t help when the things the government is being critisised for (not shutting international travel etc) are things you’d have done the same.

    I do think he’s starting to understand the ‘London Problem’, although convincing those around him to get out into the Red Wall might be a little bit more tricky.

    From a purely electoral point of view, he needs to turn about 80 blue seats red at the next election. Where are those seats, and what does he have to offer the people living there in the next couple of years, at a time when there have been many encouraging announcements of jobs and investment in areas that just turned blue? Also note that most of the investment is private money, with government trying to their best to get out of the way with free zones and plannning reforms.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    EU Transport Commissioner coming in for a deal of deserved stick:

    Wonderful to hear Jackie Kennedy is safe and well following her trip to Dallas #TweetLikeValean

    https://twitter.com/mseltzermayr/status/1396586149087428612?s=20
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    edited May 2021
    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I also think he is not helped by the fact that there are very clear open divisions within the party about its direction of travel. The left clearly scent blood and still think there is a market for Corbynesque politics to win the day. I'm right behind them with these thoughts - more power to their elbows....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Curious report in the Guardian that omits (by orders of magnitude) the most populous country in SE Asia:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/24/south-east-asian-countries-battle-covid-resurgence-amid-lack-of-vaccines
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464

    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
    That last line is the key to BJ... the moment the Parliamentary party think he cant win I'd wager they'll shift him sharpish, I dont sense loyalty to him the way previous PMs had a group of loyalists - meanwhile I suspect Labour will still be arguing about whether 2017 constituted a `win' for Corbynism
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760

    Sandpit said:

    I think 1% and 18% were both outliers, 12-15% sound about right from the recent polls.

    People are getting vaccinated, things are opening up again, spring is slowly turning to summer, no-one cares about wallpaper. Life is good for the government.

    Next year, when we are still 100bn in the hole and inflation starts to run away, might be a different story.

    Maybe by then, LotO might have dropped the over-emoting Prince Harry tribute act and have some policies to talk about.

    is what I can't quite work out.
    I don't think you're giving Boris sufficient credit. This isn't just about Starmer and Labour.

    Boris has done to Labour what Blair did to the tories: parked his bus right on their lawn. He is sweeping up the northern former Labour vote. With their continued metropolitan luvvy wokeness, Labour are accelerating the trend. They are a million miles away from Boris Brexit Britain.

    I suspect this year we will see a poll with Labour at 25%.

    Sorry that this isn't comforting news. I don't like Boris either. Nor did I like Blair. But both are brilliant politicians.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    What will the EU do?

    I think the choice is between sanctions aimed at sending a message and crippling sanctions such as a complete trade embargo aimed at punishing and potentially overthrowing the regime …..

    I am guessing it will be the former


    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1396607004278407169?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021

    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
    That last line is the key to BJ... the moment the Parliamentary party think he cant win I'd wager they'll shift him sharpish, I dont sense loyalty to him the way previous PMs had a group of loyalists - meanwhile I suspect Labour will still be arguing about whether 2017 constituted a `win' for Corbynism
    If there is one thing the Tories are good at, ditching leaders when they have outlived their use.

    I think the question is can some one who is an obvious replacement, like Dishy Rishi, get through his time without being damaged by Boris fallout. At the moment, he manages to ride both horses, but there are difficult decisions ahead.

    The Tories are better equipped in the replacement leader department. Sunak, Javid, Hunt, all could step in and pretty sure they would do a steady job, and probably be far better against a Starmer than Bullshitting Boris.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
    That last line is the key to BJ... the moment the Parliamentary party think he cant win I'd wager they'll shift him sharpish, I dont sense loyalty to him the way previous PMs had a group of loyalists - meanwhile I suspect Labour will still be arguing about whether 2017 constituted a `win' for Corbynism
    The Tories have always been pretty ruthless at getting rid of leaders, witness IDS and even Thatcher being dispatched. It did take them a couple of attempts to get Mrs May though.

    One possibility is that, with Starmer also struggling and the Lib Who nowhere, Boris does overstay his welcome - even if the polling and local election results hold up.

    What both party leaders really need is an obvious challenger to keep them honest, it will be interesting to see who develops into that role in the next 12 months or so.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464

    Curious report in the Guardian that omits (by orders of magnitude) the most populous country in SE Asia:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/24/south-east-asian-countries-battle-covid-resurgence-amid-lack-of-vaccines

    Yes, it omits Indonesia and barely mentions Vietnam - almost 380 million people combined... strange one. Probably because the two dont fit the main thrust of the story.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
    That last line is the key to BJ... the moment the Parliamentary party think he cant win I'd wager they'll shift him sharpish, I dont sense loyalty to him the way previous PMs had a group of loyalists - meanwhile I suspect Labour will still be arguing about whether 2017 constituted a `win' for Corbynism
    The Tories have always been pretty ruthless at getting rid of leaders, witness IDS and even Thatcher being dispatched. It did take them a couple of attempts to get Mrs May though.

    One possibility is that, with Starmer also struggling and the Lib Who nowhere, Boris does overstay his welcome - even if the polling and local election results hold up.

    What both party leaders really need is an obvious challenger to keep them honest, it will be interesting to see who develops into that role in the next 12 months or so.
    Obviously we are forgetting what truth bomb Big Dom will be dropping.....be interesting if he also goes for Sunak, Hancock, etc, or just focus is fire on Boris, SAGE, PHE.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    EU Transport Commissioner coming in for a deal of deserved stick:

    Wonderful to hear Jackie Kennedy is safe and well following her trip to Dallas #TweetLikeValean

    https://twitter.com/mseltzermayr/status/1396586149087428612?s=20

    That's brilliant
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
    That last line is the key to BJ... the moment the Parliamentary party think he cant win I'd wager they'll shift him sharpish, I dont sense loyalty to him the way previous PMs had a group of loyalists - meanwhile I suspect Labour will still be arguing about whether 2017 constituted a `win' for Corbynism
    The Tories have always been pretty ruthless at getting rid of leaders, witness IDS and even Thatcher being dispatched. It did take them a couple of attempts to get Mrs May though.

    One possibility is that, with Starmer also struggling and the Lib Who nowhere, Boris does overstay his welcome - even if the polling and local election results hold up.

    What both party leaders really need is an obvious challenger to keep them honest, it will be interesting to see who develops into that role in the next 12 months or so.
    Obviously we are forgetting what truth bomb Big Dom will be dropping.....be interesting if he also goes for Sunak, Hancock, etc, or just focus is fire on Boris, SAGE, PHE.
    I don’t think he’ll be gunning for the PM or senior ministers personally, more likely he’ll focus on the machinery of government, the ‘unfirables’ who always fail upwards that he’s talked about previously.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited May 2021

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Labour are like the BBC. They are so set on ethnic diversity, workery and non binary stuff , and all that stuff inc wallpaper that they cannot see the wood for the trees. The WWC don't like this one bit and are deserting Labour in droves.
    Quad erat demonstrandum. .. oh and I forgot Corbyn has brought to the surface the anti Jewish stance of many Labour people within the Party.

    Its done really well in pissing off all the people it needs. Sure in London it's stacking up ethnic votes by the truckload but it's not going to win them an election.

    Time for some research into why people will not vote Labour. I feel sure I am not too far from the answer.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    Hmmm.....I know America like to go big and vaccine rollout is going well....but....

    This year's Indianapolis 500 is set to be the most-attended sporting event since the start of the Covid-19 outbreak as 135,000 fans will be allowed inside the Indianapolis Motor Speedway venue.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/motorsport/57224180
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Hmmm.....I know America like to go big and vaccine rollout is going well....but....

    This year's Indianapolis 500 is set to be the most-attended sporting event since the start of the Covid-19 outbreak as 135,000 fans will be allowed inside the Indianapolis Motor Speedway venue.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/motorsport/57224180

    That’s only about 30% of capacity though, usually it’s 450,000. The place is massive!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Labour are like the BBC. They are so set on ethnic diversity, workery and non binary stuff , and all that stuff inc wallpaper that they cannot see the wood for the trees. The WWC don't like this one bit and are deserting Labour in droves.
    Quad erat demonstrandum. .. oh and I forgot Corbyn has brought to the surface the anti Jewish stance of many Labour people within the Party.

    Its done really well in pissing off all the people it needs. Sure in London it's stacking up ethnic votes by the truckload but it's not going to win them an election.

    Time for some research into why people will not vite Labour. I feel sure I am not too far from the answer.
    I am actually surprised the woke stuff doesn't turn off more BAME voters from Labour. A lot of highly religious African and Asian migrants are very conservative with a small c on social issues.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited May 2021

    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
    That last line is the key to BJ... the moment the Parliamentary party think he cant win I'd wager they'll shift him sharpish, I dont sense loyalty to him the way previous PMs had a group of loyalists - meanwhile I suspect Labour will still be arguing about whether 2017 constituted a `win' for Corbynism
    If there is one thing the Tories are good at, ditching leaders when they have outlived their use.

    I think the question is can some one who is an obvious replacement, like Dishy Rishi, get through his time without being damaged by Boris fallout. At the moment, he manages to ride both horses, but there are difficult decisions ahead.

    The Tories are better equipped in the replacement leader department. Sunak, Javid, Hunt, all could step in and pretty sure they would do a steady job, and probably be far better against a Starmer than Bullshitting Boris.
    I'm afraid your antipathy to Boris is blinding you. Get over it.

    He's a brilliant, winning, politician and he won't be going anywhere for at least 5 years and quite possibly 10. He has a highly ambitious new young wife-to-be at his side and they ain't giving up the reins of power anytime soon.

    He will win a thumping majority next time and quite possibly another the one after that.

    Don't make the same mistake that I did over Tony Blair. I never liked him and I spent all the time waiting for his downfall. When it came it was a damp squib. Why don't you instead park your antipathy, take a step back and admire an utterly brilliant politician at work. Because that's what Boris is.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Labour are like the BBC. They are so set on ethnic diversity, workery and non binary stuff , and all that stuff inc wallpaper that they cannot see the wood for the trees. The WWC don't like this one bit and are deserting Labour in droves.
    Quad erat demonstrandum. .. oh and I forgot Corbyn has brought to the surface the anti Jewish stance of many Labour people within the Party.

    Its done really well in pissing off all the people it needs. Sure in London it's stacking up ethnic votes by the truckload but it's not going to win them an election.

    Time for some research into why people will not vote Labour. I feel sure I am not too far from the answer.
    Labour's problem is what should be the political periphery has become its political core.

    Labour's donut has become a ring donut. At its heart is now a hole - where the tasty red stuff should be.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Sandpit said:

    EU Transport Commissioner coming in for a deal of deserved stick:

    Wonderful to hear Jackie Kennedy is safe and well following her trip to Dallas #TweetLikeValean

    https://twitter.com/mseltzermayr/status/1396586149087428612?s=20

    Oh dear. Guess what folks, trying to manage a major diplomatic incident one Tweet at a time doesn’t always work out for the best!

    Sometimes, getting everyone on the phone and agreeing a carefully worded statement works somewhat better!

    That said, Belarus are going to be in deep trouble for this one, it’s really not the done thing to use military assets to force an overflying civilian airliner to land, just so you can haul a passenger you don’t like off the plane. If I were a Belarusian diplomat in Europe, I would be packing my bags this morning.
    Yes.

    It is staggeringly poor behavior (and a staggeringly misjudged tweet, but that's another story).

    I would hope that there will be serious diplomatic retaliation.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Hmmm.....I know America like to go big and vaccine rollout is going well....but....

    This year's Indianapolis 500 is set to be the most-attended sporting event since the start of the Covid-19 outbreak as 135,000 fans will be allowed inside the Indianapolis Motor Speedway venue.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/motorsport/57224180

    It's sad that the change in schedule due to Covid has ended the strange and beautiful tradition of a select few drivers racing in the Indy 500/Charlotte 600 on the same day to do IndyCar/NASCAR 'Double Duty' on the same day. Tony Stewart once got 3rd and 6th (or 6th and 3rd, I can't quite remember).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Labour are like the BBC. They are so set on ethnic diversity, workery and non binary stuff , and all that stuff inc wallpaper that they cannot see the wood for the trees. The WWC don't like this one bit and are deserting Labour in droves.
    Quad erat demonstrandum. .. oh and I forgot Corbyn has brought to the surface the anti Jewish stance of many Labour people within the Party.

    Its done really well in pissing off all the people it needs. Sure in London it's stacking up ethnic votes by the truckload but it's not going to win them an election.

    Time for some research into why people will not vite Labour. I feel sure I am not too far from the answer.
    I am actually surprised the woke stuff doesn't turn off more BAME voters from Labour. A lot of highly religious African and Asian migrants are very conservative with a small c on social issues.
    It could easily be they are the next part of Labour's voter coalition to peel away.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Labour are like the BBC. They are so set on ethnic diversity, workery and non binary stuff , and all that stuff inc wallpaper that they cannot see the wood for the trees. The WWC don't like this one bit and are deserting Labour in droves.
    Quad erat demonstrandum. .. oh and I forgot Corbyn has brought to the surface the anti Jewish stance of many Labour people within the Party.

    Its done really well in pissing off all the people it needs. Sure in London it's stacking up ethnic votes by the truckload but it's not going to win them an election.

    Time for some research into why people will not vote Labour. I feel sure I am not too far from the answer.
    Labour's problem is what should be the political periphery has become its political core.

    Labour's donut has become a ring donut. At its heart is now a hole - where the tasty red stuff should be.
    They're not even doing particularly well in London, went backwards in the GLA from 2016.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited May 2021
    With hindsight that picture of Sir Keir in his office bending the knee was the deathknell

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11822873/labour-leader-keir-starmer-takes-a-knee-george-floyd/
  • One thing that has really struck me is how big a difference to voting allegiance Brexit, and the attempted reversal of the vote, has made.
    It seems that it has, amongst both leavers and remainers, given former staunchly loyal voters the OK to leave their former home. I always knew it would have an effect on dislodging voters but the length of the political shenanigans following the vote to leave seems to have wonderfully concentrated minds on both sides of the divide as to whether their party of choice was likely to act in their own interest. I wonder if it has divided the electorate into camps of whether they believe that the politicians know best or not?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413

    We may have beaten Covid but the Telegraph front page says we shall all die of cancer, and with rotten teeth, according to the Mail and Express, owing to a shortage of NHS dentists. The Star has us facing heatstroke as Bank Holiday temperatures are forecast to hit 24 degrees C.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-57223902

    It's very British to go from "coldest May EVER" to " Bank Holiday heatstroke!" in just two days.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Labour are like the BBC. They are so set on ethnic diversity, workery and non binary stuff , and all that stuff inc wallpaper that they cannot see the wood for the trees. The WWC don't like this one bit and are deserting Labour in droves.
    Quad erat demonstrandum. .. oh and I forgot Corbyn has brought to the surface the anti Jewish stance of many Labour people within the Party.

    Its done really well in pissing off all the people it needs. Sure in London it's stacking up ethnic votes by the truckload but it's not going to win them an election.

    Time for some research into why people will not vite Labour. I feel sure I am not too far from the answer.
    I am actually surprised the woke stuff doesn't turn off more BAME voters from Labour. A lot of highly religious African and Asian migrants are very conservative with a small c on social issues.
    This is a self-correcting problem. As more and more of them enter the middle-class and integrate more - with the shape of British society changing as a result - they will become natural Conservative voters.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited May 2021
    Voters are faced with a government which has navigated through the pandemic for better or worse and an Opposition that has supported them at every turn.

    They might have done this or that slightly differently but no one quite remembers what.

    Given that it will take an enquiry to determine how well or otherwise the government performed and its most recent act was a success, why would anyone now apart from its core vote support Labour.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Labour often give the impression that they have become a populist party, a party for support of several single issues(s).
    That is not a good foundation for a cohesive world view or rounded policy position.
    Great for short term fads and smug self satisfaction to tickle the self satisfied morally superior image that eminates to many of the red wall voters and swathes of striving working class people.
  • One thing that has really struck me is how big a difference to voting allegiance Brexit, and the attempted reversal of the vote, has made.
    It seems that it has, amongst both leavers and remainers, given former staunchly loyal voters the OK to leave their former home. I always knew it would have an effect on dislodging voters but the length of the political shenanigans following the vote to leave seems to have wonderfully concentrated minds on both sides of the divide as to whether their party of choice was likely to act in their own interest. I wonder if it has divided the electorate into camps of whether they believe that the politicians know best or not?

    Related to this, whether the electoral success of Boris Johnson is an outcome. Nobody believes that he believes in anything so those who don’t believe “auntie knows best” are more likely to vote for him and, conversely, it may be a reason why the more staunchly authoritarian green policies are taking votes from Labour.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Good morning everyone. Weather looks to be improving at last.
    Had a text late last night, which I only read this morning, to the effect that Grandson 2's got his driving theory test today.Hope he passes, although AIUI, there's a long wait for the practical one.
    WAS planning to go to the gym, but I’ve woken with a painful hip.
    Poor old chap. Emphasis on the old!

    On topic Labour picked a 'clean' leader to follow Corbyn, but an inexperienced politician. They'd have been far better with Milliband or even Jess Phillips.
    Starmer asks questions in a courtroom fashion, expecting answers. Johnson is, as Mr CC says, a politician and doesn't give them, just plays to the gallery. Which, to be fair, he's very good at.
    Against that, Johnson's Marmite; you either like/admire him or actively dislike him. At the moment he's getting away with it; one of these days he won't. But it won';t be like Blair, with a conscious, and painfully thought decision about Iraq; it'll be something he's done without thinking about it which turns out to be spectacularly bad.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860
    edited May 2021

    We may have beaten Covid but the Telegraph front page says we shall all die of cancer, and with rotten teeth, according to the Mail and Express, owing to a shortage of NHS dentists. The Star has us facing heatstroke as Bank Holiday temperatures are forecast to hit 24 degrees C.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-57223902

    It's very British to go from "coldest May EVER" to " Bank Holiday heatstroke!" in just two days.
    And we still have Thursday’s widespread snowfalls, as predicted by LeadronicT of this parish, to get through first?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    One thing that has really struck me is how big a difference to voting allegiance Brexit, and the attempted reversal of the vote, has made.
    It seems that it has, amongst both leavers and remainers, given former staunchly loyal voters the OK to leave their former home. I always knew it would have an effect on dislodging voters but the length of the political shenanigans following the vote to leave seems to have wonderfully concentrated minds on both sides of the divide as to whether their party of choice was likely to act in their own interest. I wonder if it has divided the electorate into camps of whether they believe that the politicians know best or not?

    Except that the net effect of the referendum has, of course, been to consolidate the Leave vote behind the Tories and splinter the Remain vote in umpteen different directions.

    It's been an unmitigated disaster for the political and cultural left. A wrecking ball. It's quite possible that we could have a lengthy Tory Hegemony - the comparison with the ruling party in Japan, which has enjoyed almost unbroken power since the late 1950s, is sometimes made at this point. Looking forward to the next couple of elections, it's far from clear that Labour and the Lib Dems can topple dominoes in the South faster than the Conservatives can in the Midlands and the North - and if Scotland falls off then they may never be able to do enough to assemble a Parliamentary majority.

    The reality is that the anti-Tory vote may now be too small and too inefficiently distributed to unseat the Government, now and for many, many years to come. Voting to Leave the EU against the wishes of Labour's politicians and core membership, and voting for Farage's vehicles, both appear to have acted as gateway drugs for millions of vital Labour supporters to switch sides outright - and there appears to be no particular reason for them to go back again.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    Good morning, everyone.

    Hindsight wasn't required to see that kneeling was not a good look.

    F1: interesting to consider Azerbaijan. Monaco, but with a massive straight. So won't be as bad for Mercedes. And may be right up Norris' street.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760

    One thing that has really struck me is how big a difference to voting allegiance Brexit, and the attempted reversal of the vote, has made.
    It seems that it has, amongst both leavers and remainers, given former staunchly loyal voters the OK to leave their former home. I always knew it would have an effect on dislodging voters but the length of the political shenanigans following the vote to leave seems to have wonderfully concentrated minds on both sides of the divide as to whether their party of choice was likely to act in their own interest. I wonder if it has divided the electorate into camps of whether they believe that the politicians know best or not?

    Related to this, whether the electoral success of Boris Johnson is an outcome. Nobody believes that he believes in anything
    I agree. I used to get rather fed up with Tony Blair because if you actually dissect what he said it was empty. Vacuous. Nothing. There was no real belief in anything there at all. Boris may be similar.

    It was Realpolitik. Pragmatic.

    When you're storming all over your opponent's best policies it's very effective.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    p.s. that might be a little unfair on Boris because his vision for a (Boris) Brexit Britain is increasingly coherent.

    Britain will become the Singapore of the West. If that floats your boat then enjoy the ride.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
    That last line is the key to BJ... the moment the Parliamentary party think he cant win I'd wager they'll shift him sharpish, I dont sense loyalty to him the way previous PMs had a group of loyalists - meanwhile I suspect Labour will still be arguing about whether 2017 constituted a `win' for Corbynism
    The Tories have always been pretty ruthless at getting rid of leaders, witness IDS and even Thatcher being dispatched. It did take them a couple of attempts to get Mrs May though.

    One possibility is that, with Starmer also struggling and the Lib Who nowhere, Boris does overstay his welcome - even if the polling and local election results hold up.

    What both party leaders really need is an obvious challenger to keep them honest, it will be interesting to see who develops into that role in the next 12 months or so.
    Obviously we are forgetting what truth bomb Big Dom will be dropping.....be interesting if he also goes for Sunak, Hancock, etc, or just focus is fire on Boris, SAGE, PHE.
    I don’t think he’ll be gunning for the PM or senior ministers personally, more likely he’ll focus on the machinery of government, the ‘unfirables’ who always fail upwards that he’s talked about previously.
    There are too many of those. But they do sometimes get fired.

    Exhibit A - Dominic Cummings.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Curious report in the Guardian that omits (by orders of magnitude) the most populous country in SE Asia:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/24/south-east-asian-countries-battle-covid-resurgence-amid-lack-of-vaccines

    The real reason that Thailand haven't vaccinated is corruption (no surprise to those of us on the inside). For months there has been a massive squabble about who is getting the vaccine contract because they know it is worth mega $$$.

    The Guardian won't of course report this. It reminds me of that wonderful comment by John Sentamu: the ultimate white liberal's worst nightmare is telling a black person they're wrong :smiley:
    First of all, I would very strongly recommend NOT suggesting to a Thai that they're 'black'!
    Secondly one of Thailands Covid problems is refugees coming across the border from Myanmar.
    And third, AIUI, it was always the Thai government's plan to start vaccinating about now.
    But I agree with you about corruption being a problem.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Good morning everyone. Weather looks to be improving at last.
    Had a text late last night, which I only read this morning, to the effect that Grandson 2's got his driving theory test today.Hope he passes, although AIUI, there's a long wait for the practical one.
    WAS planning to go to the gym, but I’ve woken with a painful hip.
    Poor old chap. Emphasis on the old!

    On topic Labour picked a 'clean' leader to follow Corbyn, but an inexperienced politician. They'd have been far better with Milliband or even Jess Phillips.
    Starmer asks questions in a courtroom fashion, expecting answers. Johnson is, as Mr CC says, a politician and doesn't give them, just plays to the gallery. Which, to be fair, he's very good at.
    Against that, Johnson's Marmite; you either like/admire him or actively dislike him. At the moment he's getting away with it; one of these days he won't. But it won';t be like Blair, with a conscious, and painfully thought decision about Iraq; it'll be something he's done without thinking about it which turns out to be spectacularly bad.

    I still never quite understand why Labour supporters think that the country is going to wake up one morning and decide it hates Marmite. But it seems to be all they have.

    Those that don't seem to be divided into Marmite haters but lovers of Bovril, Vegemite, Tofu and those who don't eat food at all, actually.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760

    Curious report in the Guardian that omits (by orders of magnitude) the most populous country in SE Asia:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/24/south-east-asian-countries-battle-covid-resurgence-amid-lack-of-vaccines

    The real reason that Thailand haven't vaccinated is corruption (no surprise to those of us on the inside). For months there has been a massive squabble about who is getting the vaccine contract because they know it is worth mega $$$.

    The Guardian won't of course report this. It reminds me of that wonderful comment by John Sentamu: the ultimate white liberal's worst nightmare is telling a black person they're wrong :smiley:
    First of all, I would very strongly recommend NOT suggesting to a Thai that they're 'black'!
    .
    No, really? Wow I never knew that.

    The clue was in the comment, 'It reminds me of ...'

    Man alive. Is this what has happened to us? Even a comparison gets taken as literal?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Remember Bob Worcester - look at the share not the lead

    Tory share solidly in low to mid 40s with an increase from the low 40s at the beginning of the month

    Labour share in the low 30s down from the high 30s at the beginning of the month

    Overall conclusion: Tory lead has widened from around 8-10 points to 10-12 points with this lead being an outlier

    My guess is that the Tories have seen some of the negative froth go away plus a bit of a “winner’s bonus”. SKS has lost some prior supporters who have decided he’s not going to win so they don’t need to compromise their principles allowing them to vote Green or LibDem without guilt
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
    That last line is the key to BJ... the moment the Parliamentary party think he cant win I'd wager they'll shift him sharpish, I dont sense loyalty to him the way previous PMs had a group of loyalists - meanwhile I suspect Labour will still be arguing about whether 2017 constituted a `win' for Corbynism
    The Tories have always been pretty ruthless at getting rid of leaders, witness IDS and even Thatcher being dispatched. It did take them a couple of attempts to get Mrs May though.

    One possibility is that, with Starmer also struggling and the Lib Who nowhere, Boris does overstay his welcome - even if the polling and local election results hold up.

    What both party leaders really need is an obvious challenger to keep them honest, it will be interesting to see who develops into that role in the next 12 months or so.
    Obviously we are forgetting what truth bomb Big Dom will be dropping.....be interesting if he also goes for Sunak, Hancock, etc, or just focus is fire on Boris, SAGE, PHE.
    I don’t think he’ll be gunning for the PM or senior ministers personally, more likely he’ll focus on the machinery of government, the ‘unfirables’ who always fail upwards that he’s talked about previously.
    There are too many of those. But they do sometimes get fired.

    Exhibit A - Dominic Cummings.
    Exhibit B - Mark Sedwill
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Curious report in the Guardian that omits (by orders of magnitude) the most populous country in SE Asia:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/24/south-east-asian-countries-battle-covid-resurgence-amid-lack-of-vaccines

    The real reason that Thailand haven't vaccinated is corruption (no surprise to those of us on the inside). For months there has been a massive squabble about who is getting the vaccine contract because they know it is worth mega $$$.

    The Guardian won't of course report this. It reminds me of that wonderful comment by John Sentamu: the ultimate white liberal's worst nightmare is telling a black person they're wrong :smiley:
    First of all, I would very strongly recommend NOT suggesting to a Thai that they're 'black'!
    .
    No, really? Wow I never knew that.

    The clue was in the comment, 'It reminds me of ...'

    Man alive. Is this what has happened to us? Even a comparison gets taken as literal?
    LOL!
    You remind me of your hero, BJ; when questioned abuse the questioner!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    That is shockingly bad. What incentive is there for Ryanair to play this down?

    Would the Russians, sorry, Belarusians actually have shot the plane down if it had kept flying to Vilnius? Surely not. Although it would have been a brave call for the pilot to make.

    The pilot was instructed by ATC to fly to Minsk. Protocol is you follow instructions
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    p.s. that might be a little unfair on Boris because his vision for a (Boris) Brexit Britain is increasingly coherent.

    Britain will become the Singapore of the West. If that floats your boat then enjoy the ride.

    God, I'd love that.

    However, I haven't actually seen any evidence of it.

    It is also worth bearing in mind that Singapore is a city state, while the UK is not. Singapore is also at the nexus of the fastest growing economies on the planet, with their goods passing through some of the busiest docks in the world.

    As a business guy (with very substantial investments in the UK), I would love it if the UK adopted Singapore's visa rules - they're simple, easy to navigate, no need for an immigration attorney. (The absolute opposite of the US's)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Any poll that has Tories or Labour below 30% should be treated with a degree of scepticism...the chances of either party led by somebody vaguely reasonable getting such a low vote share is incredibly unlikely...especially as the Lib thingies get no coverage these days.

    What I can't work out is what is behind this large Lab drop off in vote share? Its not like Starmer has been revealed as friends of Hamas like old Jezza or tied to Martin Bashir or been caught getting donors to pay for his home.

    He has just carried on as before, boring Keith...those that like that, why would they have changed their mind over the past month, as he has again been boring Keith.

    Well it is increasingly clear that not being Corbyn is not enough, that he is a useless campaigner, the absence of any real policy on anything and the bodged reshuffle.

    He needs to step down fairly soon, and have a leadership contest that might get some juices flowing. Next summer, once he has done whatever internal reforms are needed.

    I suspect that he will hang on too long though, and be a drag on Labour at the next election.
    I think that seems a bit harsh of Starmer personally. He isn't electric, but I think the locals were as much to do with Labour's brand / Brexit / vaccine bounce as anything.

    Labour do need to form some sort of offer though. One for the 21st Century. But I don't expect a new leader to come in and do that within a few months, especially with the pandemic and also what we are told about the Labour party machine itself is in a mess and taken up with legal issues still ongoing from Corbyn's time.

    Turning the Labour party around (or any after becoming toxic) seems like trying to shift that oil tanker stuck in the Suez canal.

    When Boris finally crashes and burns, the Tories will have a similar issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take 10 years to counter a lot of the damage he does...unless they are smart and shift him off at an optimal time.
    That last line is the key to BJ... the moment the Parliamentary party think he cant win I'd wager they'll shift him sharpish, I dont sense loyalty to him the way previous PMs had a group of loyalists - meanwhile I suspect Labour will still be arguing about whether 2017 constituted a `win' for Corbynism
    The Tories have always been pretty ruthless at getting rid of leaders, witness IDS and even Thatcher being dispatched. It did take them a couple of attempts to get Mrs May though.

    One possibility is that, with Starmer also struggling and the Lib Who nowhere, Boris does overstay his welcome - even if the polling and local election results hold up.

    What both party leaders really need is an obvious challenger to keep them honest, it will be interesting to see who develops into that role in the next 12 months or so.
    Obviously we are forgetting what truth bomb Big Dom will be dropping.....be interesting if he also goes for Sunak, Hancock, etc, or just focus is fire on Boris, SAGE, PHE.
    I don’t think he’ll be gunning for the PM or senior ministers personally, more likely he’ll focus on the machinery of government, the ‘unfirables’ who always fail upwards that he’s talked about previously.
    There are too many of those. But they do sometimes get fired.

    Exhibit A - Dominic Cummings.
    Exhibit B - Mark Sedwill
    Can we count Gavin Williamson as Exhibit C? He was fired once.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,813
    edited May 2021
    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    How much of a surcharge there was for the extra flying time?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    DavidL said:

    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    How much of a surcharge there was for the extra flying time?
    They should bill Belarus at their usual rate for extras.

    That’ld bankrupt Lukashenko far more effectively than any sanctions...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Just read an entire thread from a prominent independent SAGE expert on vaccines efficacy.

    It could be my optimism bias, but some people seem trapped in a very wierd mindset (chicken little syndrome) seeing the worst possible outcomes in every circumstance. How do they climbdown?


    https://twitter.com/cox_a_r/status/1396711153183690752?s=21

    They won’t. They’ll just ignore they ever wrote it.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464

    p.s. that might be a little unfair on Boris because his vision for a (Boris) Brexit Britain is increasingly coherent.

    Britain will become the Singapore of the West. If that floats your boat then enjoy the ride.

    People who say that often tend to overloo

    p.s. that might be a little unfair on BPoris because his vision for a (Boris) Brexit Britain is increasingly coherent.

    Britain will become the Singapore of the West. If that floats your boat then enjoy the ride.

    People often say that with little understanding of Singapore, a country with a huge migrant labour force living in shantytowns, a country that has the loosest sense of democracy and a state controlled media, a country that actively discriminates against gay people, migrants and enforces rigid discipline/control on issues ranging from the ethnic mix in your apartment block, to car ownership to which school you attend. People see the wealth (enjoyed by a minority) and think I'll have that.....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,813

    Yougov certainly should be ringing a bell for Labour - B&S next month could be a welcome distraction or a nightmare for KS. My sense is that the Tories have a good bounce from the May elections and a feel good from the (so far) succesful vaccine roll out, the trouble facing Labour as they head towards Sep's Conference is just changing the leader alone doesn't win the election there is a lot of baggage to drop (or pick up) and I dont see how that can happen.

    Surely now SKS has done the tears for Piers everything will be fine?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Charles said:

    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    That is shockingly bad. What incentive is there for Ryanair to play this down?

    Would the Russians, sorry, Belarusians actually have shot the plane down if it had kept flying to Vilnius? Surely not. Although it would have been a brave call for the pilot to make.

    The pilot was instructed by ATC to fly to Minsk. Protocol is you follow instructions
    Especially when there’s a fast jet off your wing with missiles loaded!

    As much as I love to rag on Ryanair, no blame on the airline nor pilots here. They followed instructions and did everything right.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Good morning everyone. Weather looks to be improving at last.
    Had a text late last night, which I only read this morning, to the effect that Grandson 2's got his driving theory test today.Hope he passes, although AIUI, there's a long wait for the practical one.
    WAS planning to go to the gym, but I’ve woken with a painful hip.
    Poor old chap. Emphasis on the old!

    On topic Labour picked a 'clean' leader to follow Corbyn, but an inexperienced politician. They'd have been far better with Milliband or even Jess Phillips.
    Starmer asks questions in a courtroom fashion, expecting answers. Johnson is, as Mr CC says, a politician and doesn't give them, just plays to the gallery. Which, to be fair, he's very good at.
    Against that, Johnson's Marmite; you either like/admire him or actively dislike him. At the moment he's getting away with it; one of these days he won't. But it won';t be like Blair, with a conscious, and painfully thought decision about Iraq; it'll be something he's done without thinking about it which turns out to be spectacularly bad.

    I still never quite understand why Labour supporters think that the country is going to wake up one morning and decide it hates Marmite. But it seems to be all they have.

    Those that don't seem to be divided into Marmite haters but lovers of Bovril, Vegemite, Tofu and those who don't eat food at all, actually.
    I'm not actually a Labour 'supporter'; I'm on the left, that's all. Personally I'd rather have Bovril than either Marmite of Vegemite, but that's a 'rather'.

    It's not that country will suddenly 'do something'; it's that Johnson will 'do something'.
    Rather like the appallingly stupid remark about poor Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe, which may well have condemned her to more time in prison.

    (Note the 'may well', not 'did', please.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    One thing that has really struck me is how big a difference to voting allegiance Brexit, and the attempted reversal of the vote, has made.
    It seems that it has, amongst both leavers and remainers, given former staunchly loyal voters the OK to leave their former home. I always knew it would have an effect on dislodging voters but the length of the political shenanigans following the vote to leave seems to have wonderfully concentrated minds on both sides of the divide as to whether their party of choice was likely to act in their own interest. I wonder if it has divided the electorate into camps of whether they believe that the politicians know best or not?

    Except that the net effect of the referendum has, of course, been to consolidate the Leave vote behind the Tories and splinter the Remain vote in umpteen different directions.

    It's been an unmitigated disaster for the political and cultural left. A wrecking ball. It's quite possible that we could have a lengthy Tory Hegemony - the comparison with the ruling party in Japan, which has enjoyed almost unbroken power since the late 1950s, is sometimes made at this point. Looking forward to the next couple of elections, it's far from clear that Labour and the Lib Dems can topple dominoes in the South faster than the Conservatives can in the Midlands and the North - and if Scotland falls off then they may never be able to do enough to assemble a Parliamentary majority.

    The reality is that the anti-Tory vote may now be too small and too inefficiently distributed to unseat the Government, now and for many, many years to come. Voting to Leave the EU against the wishes of Labour's politicians and core membership, and voting for Farage's vehicles, both appear to have acted as gateway drugs for millions of vital Labour supporters to switch sides outright - and there appears to be no particular reason for them to go back again.
    That's quite possible.

    But that does require two things:

    1. That the attitude towards the EU remains the dominant feature of British politics
    2. That the UK outperforms the EU

    Now, I'm reasonably confident on 2 (but far from certain, because the reality is that 'events' don't always pan out as one expects). But I'd be far less certain about 1.

    Times change remarkably quickly. In the mid-1980s, Labour was committed to leaving the EEC and to complete nuclear disbarment. Less than a decade later, it was the party of Blair and Mandelson.

    The Liberals (and the Alliance) went from the LibLab pact and their leader on trial for conspiracy to murder, to electoral irrelevance, to polling a quarter of the votes in a General Election in about six years.

    In Germany, the CDU has gone from utterly dominant 18 months ago, to polling on par with the Greens, and having lost 40% of their support.

    In the wake of the Global Financial Crisis, other than the Germans, can you name a single Western government that was re-elected? And can you really be sure we won't see another crisis of that magnitude in the next decade?

    Now, that doesn't mean the Conservatives shouldn't massively odds on for 2024 (I'd make them a 65-70% shot). But I think assuming that things will continue as they are is a very risky proposition.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    EU Transport Commissioner coming in for a deal of deserved stick:

    Wonderful to hear Jackie Kennedy is safe and well following her trip to Dallas #TweetLikeValean

    https://twitter.com/mseltzermayr/status/1396586149087428612?s=20

    That hashtag didn’t catch on. He was the only person using it…
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    That is shockingly bad. What incentive is there for Ryanair to play this down?

    Would the Russians, sorry, Belarusians actually have shot the plane down if it had kept flying to Vilnius? Surely not. Although it would have been a brave call for the pilot to make.

    The pilot was instructed by ATC to fly to Minsk. Protocol is you follow instructions
    Especially when there’s a fast jet off your wing with missiles loaded!

    As much as I love to rag on Ryanair, no blame on the airline nor pilots here. They followed instructions and did everything right.
    They didn't really have a choice.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Turns out US citizens were on the plane forced to land in Belarus. That raises the stakes:

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1396600256951898116?s=20
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    With hindsight that picture of Sir Keir in his office bending the knee was the deathknell

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11822873/labour-leader-keir-starmer-takes-a-knee-george-floyd/

    Good
    DavidL said:

    Yougov certainly should be ringing a bell for Labour - B&S next month could be a welcome distraction or a nightmare for KS. My sense is that the Tories have a good bounce from the May elections and a feel good from the (so far) succesful vaccine roll out, the trouble facing Labour as they head towards Sep's Conference is just changing the leader alone doesn't win the election there is a lot of baggage to drop (or pick up) and I dont see how that can happen.

    Surely now SKS has done the tears for Piers everything will be fine?
    Did Rayner or Reeves suggest that he did it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    DavidL said:

    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    How much of a surcharge there was for the extra flying time?
    737-800 operating costs run to about three grand an hour, plus ground expenses from the unscheduled arrival.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991

    Just read an entire thread from a prominent independent SAGE expert on vaccines efficacy.

    It could be my optimism bias, but some people seem trapped in a very wierd mindset (chicken little syndrome) seeing the worst possible outcomes in every circumstance. How do they climbdown?


    https://twitter.com/cox_a_r/status/1396711153183690752?s=21

    They won’t. They’ll just ignore they ever wrote it.

    Are they really getting any coverage these days? Outside the Guardian and the twitter bubble, I rarely see them mentioned.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    rcs1000 said:

    But that does require two things:

    1. That the attitude towards the EU remains the dominant feature of British politics
    2. That the UK outperforms the EU

    Now, I'm reasonably confident on 2 (but far from certain, because the reality is that 'events' don't always pan out as one expects). But I'd be far less certain about 1.

    BoZo's approach to the reality of Brexit so far has been to sell out every single interest group he "promised" would benefit from it.

    Northern Ireland? Fuck 'em

    Fishermen? Fuck 'em

    Farmers? Fuck 'em.

    While the effect of this so far has been to boost his popularity among those who are not members of these groups, I am tempted to suggest that there is a limit to how far you can stretch this political strategy and still "win"

    It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine what Brexiters would be saying if the UK had stayed in the EU, and it had done a trade deal with Australia on these terms. 'Brussels Bureaucrats Betray British Beef' is my guess.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3484d6b0-ba68-11eb-88a0-2b24633e3d76?shareToken=e911845d1ce608b43c8605a763331cae
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    Mr. Sandpit, there's a booth where the votes won't find you.

    Holding hands as red wall comes tumbling down.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860
    edited May 2021
    Charles said:

    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    That is shockingly bad. What incentive is there for Ryanair to play this down?

    Would the Russians, sorry, Belarusians actually have shot the plane down if it had kept flying to Vilnius? Surely not. Although it would have been a brave call for the pilot to make.

    The pilot was instructed by ATC to fly to Minsk. Protocol is you follow instructions
    Under IFR air law and controlled airspace, rather more than protocol
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    That is shockingly bad. What incentive is there for Ryanair to play this down?

    Would the Russians, sorry, Belarusians actually have shot the plane down if it had kept flying to Vilnius? Surely not. Although it would have been a brave call for the pilot to make.

    The pilot was instructed by ATC to fly to Minsk. Protocol is you follow instructions
    Especially when there’s a fast jet off your wing with missiles loaded!

    As much as I love to rag on Ryanair, no blame on the airline nor pilots here. They followed instructions and did everything right.
    Their press release was weird. I assume it was “guided”.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Good morning everyone. Weather looks to be improving at last.
    Had a text late last night, which I only read this morning, to the effect that Grandson 2's got his driving theory test today.Hope he passes, although AIUI, there's a long wait for the practical one.
    WAS planning to go to the gym, but I’ve woken with a painful hip.
    Poor old chap. Emphasis on the old!

    On topic Labour picked a 'clean' leader to follow Corbyn, but an inexperienced politician. They'd have been far better with Milliband or even Jess Phillips.
    Starmer asks questions in a courtroom fashion, expecting answers. Johnson is, as Mr CC says, a politician and doesn't give them, just plays to the gallery. Which, to be fair, he's very good at.
    Against that, Johnson's Marmite; you either like/admire him or actively dislike him. At the moment he's getting away with it; one of these days he won't. But it won';t be like Blair, with a conscious, and painfully thought decision about Iraq; it'll be something he's done without thinking about it which turns out to be spectacularly bad.

    I still never quite understand why Labour supporters think that the country is going to wake up one morning and decide it hates Marmite. But it seems to be all they have.

    Those that don't seem to be divided into Marmite haters but lovers of Bovril, Vegemite, Tofu and those who don't eat food at all, actually.
    I'm not actually a Labour 'supporter'; I'm on the left, that's all. Personally I'd rather have Bovril than either Marmite of Vegemite, but that's a 'rather'.

    It's not that country will suddenly 'do something'; it's that Johnson will 'do something'.
    Rather like the appallingly stupid remark about poor Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe, which may well have condemned her to more time in prison.

    (Note the 'may well', not 'did', please.)
    Caveat noted.

    The reality is Iran was using her as a pawn. She was not going to be released u til every ounce of value has been extracted. Boris’s comments were used as an excuse rather than influencing the outcome
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    That is shockingly bad. What incentive is there for Ryanair to play this down?

    Would the Russians, sorry, Belarusians actually have shot the plane down if it had kept flying to Vilnius? Surely not. Although it would have been a brave call for the pilot to make.

    The pilot was instructed by ATC to fly to Minsk. Protocol is you follow instructions
    Under IFR air law and controlled airspace, rather more than protocol
    That’s a distinction not a difference
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Charles said:

    The reality is Iran was using her as a pawn. She was not going to be released u til every ounce of value has been extracted. Boris’s comments were used as an excuse rather than influencing the outcome

    Having an easy excuse influenced the outcome
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited May 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    But that does require two things:

    1. That the attitude towards the EU remains the dominant feature of British politics
    2. That the UK outperforms the EU

    Now, I'm reasonably confident on 2 (but far from certain, because the reality is that 'events' don't always pan out as one expects). But I'd be far less certain about 1.

    BoZo's approach to the reality of Brexit so far has been to sell out every single interest group he "promised" would benefit from it.

    Northern Ireland? Fuck 'em

    Fishermen? Fuck 'em

    Farmers? Fuck 'em.

    While the effect of this so far has been to boost his popularity among those who are not members of these groups, I am tempted to suggest that there is a limit to how far you can stretch this political strategy and still "win"

    It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine what Brexiters would be saying if the UK had stayed in the EU, and it had done a trade deal with Australia on these terms. 'Brussels Bureaucrats Betray British Beef' is my guess.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3484d6b0-ba68-11eb-88a0-2b24633e3d76?shareToken=e911845d1ce608b43c8605a763331cae
    18 pts would be an anihalation.....remember that Mr Canute..
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    edited May 2021
    Good morning

    On topic both the 1% and 18% polls do seem to be outliers but it is clear from the recent election results that the Conservatives are performing well and Labour not so

    Starmer's very public spat with Rayner, follows his miscalculation on taking the knee, wallpaper gate, and now the cringe worthy sight of him crying on TV.

    Add into the mix the increasing green vote, the loss of Scotland, and remember the conservatives had their best ever result for the Senedd, the outlook for Labour and Starmer are indeed bleak

    If he loses Batley and Spen after parachuting in their ideal candidate then I think that could see him go

    As far as the polls are concerned I think the realistic lead is probably between 8 - 10%
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,813

    With hindsight that picture of Sir Keir in his office bending the knee was the deathknell

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11822873/labour-leader-keir-starmer-takes-a-knee-george-floyd/

    Good
    DavidL said:

    Yougov certainly should be ringing a bell for Labour - B&S next month could be a welcome distraction or a nightmare for KS. My sense is that the Tories have a good bounce from the May elections and a feel good from the (so far) succesful vaccine roll out, the trouble facing Labour as they head towards Sep's Conference is just changing the leader alone doesn't win the election there is a lot of baggage to drop (or pick up) and I dont see how that can happen.

    Surely now SKS has done the tears for Piers everything will be fine?
    Did Rayner or Reeves suggest that he did it.
    Some of us suggested that that picture would haunt him at the time. When your problem is that you are perceived to be a metro-centered woke liberal somewhat adrift from most peoples' daily concerns confirming it indelibly was not the smartest option.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Floater said:

    Ryanair statement - one tiny little detail appears to be missing

    https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1396543331878981632/photo/1

    That is shockingly bad. What incentive is there for Ryanair to play this down?

    Would the Russians, sorry, Belarusians actually have shot the plane down if it had kept flying to Vilnius? Surely not. Although it would have been a brave call for the pilot to make.

    The pilot was instructed by ATC to fly to Minsk. Protocol is you follow instructions
    Under IFR air law and controlled airspace, rather more than protocol
    That’s a distinction not a difference
    Not to those whose licence to fly might end up on the line.



    (a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

    (b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

    (c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.

    (d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413

    One thing that has really struck me is how big a difference to voting allegiance Brexit, and the attempted reversal of the vote, has made.
    It seems that it has, amongst both leavers and remainers, given former staunchly loyal voters the OK to leave their former home. I always knew it would have an effect on dislodging voters but the length of the political shenanigans following the vote to leave seems to have wonderfully concentrated minds on both sides of the divide as to whether their party of choice was likely to act in their own interest. I wonder if it has divided the electorate into camps of whether they believe that the politicians know best or not?

    Except that the net effect of the referendum has, of course, been to consolidate the Leave vote behind the Tories and splinter the Remain vote in umpteen different directions.

    It's been an unmitigated disaster for the political and cultural left. A wrecking ball. It's quite possible that we could have a lengthy Tory Hegemony - the comparison with the ruling party in Japan, which has enjoyed almost unbroken power since the late 1950s, is sometimes made at this point. Looking forward to the next couple of elections, it's far from clear that Labour and the Lib Dems can topple dominoes in the South faster than the Conservatives can in the Midlands and the North - and if Scotland falls off then they may never be able to do enough to assemble a Parliamentary majority.

    The reality is that the anti-Tory vote may now be too small and too inefficiently distributed to unseat the Government, now and for many, many years to come. Voting to Leave the EU against the wishes of Labour's politicians and core membership, and voting for Farage's vehicles, both appear to have acted as gateway drugs for millions of vital Labour supporters to switch sides outright - and there appears to be no particular reason for them to go back again.
    I think it's possible the Greens eventually supplant Labour in opposition to the Tories, and suck in some Lib Dems too.

    The political axis will then be dogma on climate change, globalism and enthusiastic Wokeness versus technological action on climate change, nation-state based international engagement and anti-Wokeness.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    But that does require two things:

    1. That the attitude towards the EU remains the dominant feature of British politics
    2. That the UK outperforms the EU

    Now, I'm reasonably confident on 2 (but far from certain, because the reality is that 'events' don't always pan out as one expects). But I'd be far less certain about 1.

    BoZo's approach to the reality of Brexit so far has been to sell out every single interest group he "promised" would benefit from it.

    Northern Ireland? Fuck 'em

    Fishermen? Fuck 'em

    Farmers? Fuck 'em.

    While the effect of this so far has been to boost his popularity among those who are not members of these groups, I am tempted to suggest that there is a limit to how far you can stretch this political strategy and still "win"

    It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine what Brexiters would be saying if the UK had stayed in the EU, and it had done a trade deal with Australia on these terms. 'Brussels Bureaucrats Betray British Beef' is my guess.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3484d6b0-ba68-11eb-88a0-2b24633e3d76?shareToken=e911845d1ce608b43c8605a763331cae
    But, you can turn that around.

    Europhiles would be calling such a trade deal a triumph.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Just read an entire thread from a prominent independent SAGE expert on vaccines efficacy.

    It could be my optimism bias, but some people seem trapped in a very wierd mindset (chicken little syndrome) seeing the worst possible outcomes in every circumstance. How do they climbdown?


    https://twitter.com/cox_a_r/status/1396711153183690752?s=21

    They won’t. They’ll just ignore they ever wrote it.

    Are they really getting any coverage these days? Outside the Guardian and the twitter bubble, I rarely see them mentioned.
    Isn't Christina Pagel a member? She seems to be never off the TV and radio.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860
    Banking firm Revolut analysed the data of its 4,000 customers on the Isle of Wight on Monday, comparing it to the average spend for a Monday in February last year before the pandemic began.

    Isle of Wight drinkers spent more than twice as much on average on Monday than normal, according to the data, knocking back around 190 pints per minute at their peak.

    The biggest spenders in the area were 35-44 year old men, though Revolut said their customers tend to be slightly younger than the national average. Isle of Wight customers also splurged more per round than others across the country — spending £16.52 per transaction, compared to the average of £12.86 across Britain.

    The biggest spender of the customers analysed was one punter who spent £168.37 in one purchase in a pub or restaurant, the data revealed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The reality is Iran was using her as a pawn. She was not going to be released u til every ounce of value has been extracted. Boris’s comments were used as an excuse rather than influencing the outcome

    Having an easy excuse influenced the outcome
    The only thing any politician could have said to change her status was "We will pay you the billions you think we owe you."

    She was staying put until they got their way. And she was deliberately chosen for ransom because the regime was banking on people like you saying "Oh, but she has a little girl..."
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    But that does require two things:

    1. That the attitude towards the EU remains the dominant feature of British politics
    2. That the UK outperforms the EU

    Now, I'm reasonably confident on 2 (but far from certain, because the reality is that 'events' don't always pan out as one expects). But I'd be far less certain about 1.

    BoZo's approach to the reality of Brexit so far has been to sell out every single interest group he "promised" would benefit from it.

    Northern Ireland? Fuck 'em

    Fishermen? Fuck 'em

    Farmers? Fuck 'em.

    While the effect of this so far has been to boost his popularity among those who are not members of these groups, I am tempted to suggest that there is a limit to how far you can stretch this political strategy and still "win"

    It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine what Brexiters would be saying if the UK had stayed in the EU, and it had done a trade deal with Australia on these terms. 'Brussels Bureaucrats Betray British Beef' is my guess.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3484d6b0-ba68-11eb-88a0-2b24633e3d76?shareToken=e911845d1ce608b43c8605a763331cae
    18 pts would be an anihalation.....remember that Mr Canute..
    I read that Canada is next in line to agree a trade deal that will also include agriculture and wine and more trade deals will be modelled on these

    It has to be remembered that trade deals are the remainers ultimate nightmare, as each one makes rejoining more and more difficult and of course will have a substantial negative effect on EU countries as we import from outside

    Ireland and France with beef but also Australian, NZ, and Canadian wine which will be at the EU's expense as well

    This will be the last stand of those devotees of the EU like @Scott_xP and others

    Expect an avalanche of tweets on the subject over the coming months
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    One thing that has really struck me is how big a difference to voting allegiance Brexit, and the attempted reversal of the vote, has made.
    It seems that it has, amongst both leavers and remainers, given former staunchly loyal voters the OK to leave their former home. I always knew it would have an effect on dislodging voters but the length of the political shenanigans following the vote to leave seems to have wonderfully concentrated minds on both sides of the divide as to whether their party of choice was likely to act in their own interest. I wonder if it has divided the electorate into camps of whether they believe that the politicians know best or not?

    Except that the net effect of the referendum has, of course, been to consolidate the Leave vote behind the Tories and splinter the Remain vote in umpteen different directions.

    It's been an unmitigated disaster for the political and cultural left. A wrecking ball. It's quite possible that we could have a lengthy Tory Hegemony - the comparison with the ruling party in Japan, which has enjoyed almost unbroken power since the late 1950s, is sometimes made at this point. Looking forward to the next couple of elections, it's far from clear that Labour and the Lib Dems can topple dominoes in the South faster than the Conservatives can in the Midlands and the North - and if Scotland falls off then they may never be able to do enough to assemble a Parliamentary majority.

    The reality is that the anti-Tory vote may now be too small and too inefficiently distributed to unseat the Government, now and for many, many years to come. Voting to Leave the EU against the wishes of Labour's politicians and core membership, and voting for Farage's vehicles, both appear to have acted as gateway drugs for millions of vital Labour supporters to switch sides outright - and there appears to be no particular reason for them to go back again.
    I think it's possible the Greens eventually supplant Labour in opposition to the Tories, and suck in some Lib Dems too.

    The political axis will then be dogma on climate change, globalism and enthusiastic Wokeness versus technological action on climate change, nation-state based international engagement and anti-Wokeness.
    The one big obstacle to the Greens doing so is that, unlike the German Greens, they don’t have their pragmatist wing which enables them to present a more voter friendly face to a wider part of the electorate. Ask a typical voter what they think of a Green politician and it will be the image of a self-righteous wokeist haranguing the masses on their folly and stupidity. Not a great recipe for electoral success.

    Where I can see the Greens doing well is (1) seats with a high percentage of university educated voters and low ethnic minority percentage. It’s no surprise the Greens picked up so many seats in Bristol and Sheffield, for example but not in places like Manchester and (2) as a protest vote against rural housing developments. In (1) they take votes from Labour and (2) from the Lib Dem
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    Scott_xP said:

    It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine what Brexiters would be saying if the UK had stayed in the EU, and it had done a trade deal with Australia on these terms. 'Brussels Bureaucrats Betray British Beef' is my guess.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3484d6b0-ba68-11eb-88a0-2b24633e3d76?shareToken=e911845d1ce608b43c8605a763331cae

    You can only lie for so long and get away with it. Even when the people you are lying to both want you to lie to them if it upsets the other side and don't understand why its a lie anyway.

    Eventually the wall of reality always gets in the way. In the case of Australia perhaps not - the trade deal that is So Good for Great Britain* has been put on a 15 year delay so that Boris gets the accolade for signing it and Someone Else gets the blame when it catastrophically kicks in.

    Its tactical brilliance again from the Cult, but demonstrates in clear text that he doesn't give a rat fuck about what is left of this country*

    *Northern Ireland? What's that?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Charles said:

    Good morning everyone. Weather looks to be improving at last.
    Had a text late last night, which I only read this morning, to the effect that Grandson 2's got his driving theory test today.Hope he passes, although AIUI, there's a long wait for the practical one.
    WAS planning to go to the gym, but I’ve woken with a painful hip.
    Poor old chap. Emphasis on the old!

    On topic Labour picked a 'clean' leader to follow Corbyn, but an inexperienced politician. They'd have been far better with Milliband or even Jess Phillips.
    Starmer asks questions in a courtroom fashion, expecting answers. Johnson is, as Mr CC says, a politician and doesn't give them, just plays to the gallery. Which, to be fair, he's very good at.
    Against that, Johnson's Marmite; you either like/admire him or actively dislike him. At the moment he's getting away with it; one of these days he won't. But it won';t be like Blair, with a conscious, and painfully thought decision about Iraq; it'll be something he's done without thinking about it which turns out to be spectacularly bad.

    I still never quite understand why Labour supporters think that the country is going to wake up one morning and decide it hates Marmite. But it seems to be all they have.

    Those that don't seem to be divided into Marmite haters but lovers of Bovril, Vegemite, Tofu and those who don't eat food at all, actually.
    I'm not actually a Labour 'supporter'; I'm on the left, that's all. Personally I'd rather have Bovril than either Marmite of Vegemite, but that's a 'rather'.

    It's not that country will suddenly 'do something'; it's that Johnson will 'do something'.
    Rather like the appallingly stupid remark about poor Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe, which may well have condemned her to more time in prison.

    (Note the 'may well', not 'did', please.)
    Caveat noted.

    The reality is Iran was using her as a pawn. She was not going to be released u til every ounce of value has been extracted. Boris’s comments were used as an excuse rather than influencing the outcome
    A carefully chosen case, where the Iranians knew they had international law on their side but that there would be outrage about it in the UK.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited May 2021
    Sandpit said:

    I think 1% and 18% were both outliers, 12-15% sound about right from the recent polls.

    People are getting vaccinated, things are opening up again, spring is slowly turning to summer, no-one cares about wallpaper. Life is good for the government.

    Next year, when we are still 100bn in the hole and inflation starts to run away, might be a different story.

    Maybe by then, LotO might have dropped the over-emoting Prince Harry tribute act and have some policies to talk about.

    Over emoting ? That's being a little generous, I think.
    A bit of (genuine) emotion might actually improve Starmer's image.
This discussion has been closed.