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LAB gets its best Westminster by-election performance for five years at Airdrie & Shotts – political

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 14 in General
imageLAB gets its best Westminster by-election performance for five years at Airdrie & Shotts – politicalbetting.com

Overnight we have had the result of the Airdrie and Shotts by-election which was held following the resignation of the former SNP MP to run for the same seat at last week’s election for the Scottish parliament.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,844
    edited May 14
    Test
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,219
    Spirit of Jennie Lee still canvasses the streets, lanes & byways of Airdrie. Somewhat.

    She was first elected to House of Commons for Labour in 1928 by-election for Coatsbridge constituency, when she was still too young (as a then-single woman) to vote. In her maiden speech she denounced Winston Churchill and went on to marry Aneurin Bevan.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,770
    Two Covid Guardian headlines back to back:(marginally tweaked)

    “Boost self-isolation support or risk Covid resurgence, experts say”

    “Cases and deaths decline as experts say country has ‘tamed the virus’”

    One of course is the U.K., the other the US. You wouldn’t know that the former is currently experiencing case numbers, and especially deaths, running at a tiny fraction of the latter, has a more advanced (arguably) vaccine programme, and far better prospects (due to lack of vaccine scepticism) of reaching vaccine led herd immunity. The misleading use of words like “experts” or “scientists” (or “economists” or whatever...) to imply consensus and lack of potential for countering viewpoints is one of those things that annoys me intensely. Yes the articles behind the headlines will generally provide more in the way of necessary qualification, but is it too much to occasionally drop in the word “some”?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,201
    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 9,371
    5th. Morning all.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 9,371
    alex_ said:

    Two Covid Guardian headlines back to back:(marginally tweaked)

    “Boost self-isolation support or risk Covid resurgence, experts say”

    “Cases and deaths decline as experts say country has ‘tamed the virus’”

    One of course is the U.K., the other the US. You wouldn’t know that the former is currently experiencing case numbers, and especially deaths, running at a tiny fraction of the latter, has a more advanced (arguably) vaccine programme, and far better prospects (due to lack of vaccine scepticism) of reaching vaccine led herd immunity. The misleading use of words like “experts” or “scientists” (or “economists” or whatever...) to imply consensus and lack of potential for countering viewpoints is one of those things that annoys me intensely. Yes the articles behind the headlines will generally provide more in the way of necessary qualification, but is it too much to occasionally drop in the word “some”?

    Twitter only reads headlines ...
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,532

    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.

    Absolutely - and given they are unwilling to return the favour in seats where the Tories challenge they really don't deserve the help. To paint this result as some sort of Labour triumph is really quite ludicrous.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 28,980
    Unionists finally getting their tactical voting mojo going, but:

    SNP, still winning here.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,201

    Unionists finally getting their tactical voting mojo going, but:

    SNP, still winning here.

    Tories and LibDems finally getting their tactical voting mojo going, but:

    Labour, still losing here.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,022

    Unionists finally getting their tactical voting mojo going, but:

    SNP, still winning here.

    7 pro-Union candidates getting 53.6%, one pro-independence candidate getting 46.4%.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 28,980

    Unionists finally getting their tactical voting mojo going, but:

    SNP, still winning here.

    Tories and LibDems finally getting their tactical voting mojo going, but:

    Labour, still losing here.
    For the purposes of the coming struggle, Unionism, still losing here.
    Which is nice.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,118
    felix said:

    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.

    Absolutely - and given they are unwilling to return the favour in seats where the Tories challenge they really don't deserve the help. To paint this result as some sort of Labour triumph is really quite ludicrous.
    Trouble is, voting Tory in such circumstances is also interpreted as supporting the Government.

    I'm not sure how hard I could hold my nose in such circumstances.

    And, while I wish everyone well, it's not the best of mornings here. Where did all this rain come from? Not doing Essex cricket a lot of good, either!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,264
    If unionism were the be-all and end-all then the Tory voters could have voted Labour. But its not, I for one would rather see the SNP win than Labour; and noteworthy that Scottish Labour still treat the Tories as their real enemy even after almost a decade and a half of SNP leading Scotland, so why would tactical voting really take off in earnest?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,354
    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,354

    felix said:

    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.

    Absolutely - and given they are unwilling to return the favour in seats where the Tories challenge they really don't deserve the help. To paint this result as some sort of Labour triumph is really quite ludicrous.
    Trouble is, voting Tory in such circumstances is also interpreted as supporting the Government.

    I'm not sure how hard I could hold my nose in such circumstances.

    And, while I wish everyone well, it's not the best of mornings here. Where did all this rain come from? Not doing Essex cricket a lot of good, either!
    I’d never vote tactically for the Tories; everything has its limits, after all.

    Generally, tactical voting rests upon the proposition that you are sufficiently strongly opposed to one party’s programme in the round that you are prepared to vote for your second choice party if it has a better chance of beating the party you really don’t like.

    The proposition in Scotland is different - it is based on a single issue of an indy referendum, and asking voters to weigh the strength of their views on that against their views on every other political issue.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,572
    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    You'd have thought that would be sorted via the system ?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,470
    UKIP 39 votes. LOL. What's the point of them now? They are just a slightly more intellectually and philosophically coherent version of the tories but with no money.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,770
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    You'd have thought that would be sorted via the system ?
    You’d have thought people should be allowed to make an informed choice to accept AZ...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 30,757
    I suppose we are about to find out what the government actually means when they say we're going to have to live with the virus.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 19,632
    alex_ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    You'd have thought that would be sorted via the system ?
    You’d have thought people should be allowed to make an informed choice to accept AZ...
    At the press conference last week, JVT said that it shouldn't be necessary for someone to be put in that position.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,118
    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.

    Absolutely - and given they are unwilling to return the favour in seats where the Tories challenge they really don't deserve the help. To paint this result as some sort of Labour triumph is really quite ludicrous.
    Trouble is, voting Tory in such circumstances is also interpreted as supporting the Government.

    I'm not sure how hard I could hold my nose in such circumstances.

    And, while I wish everyone well, it's not the best of mornings here. Where did all this rain come from? Not doing Essex cricket a lot of good, either!
    I’d never vote tactically for the Tories; everything has its limits, after all.

    Generally, tactical voting rests upon the proposition that you are sufficiently strongly opposed to one party’s programme in the round that you are prepared to vote for your second choice party if it has a better chance of beating the party you really don’t like.

    The proposition in Scotland is different - it is based on a single issue of an indy referendum, and asking voters to weigh the strength of their views on that against their views on every other political issue.
    Arguably, the polls suggesting that an independence referendum is finely balanced, it might be better to have it, having agreed that for a positive decision 60% of at least a 70% poll is needed. I know that's overall less than 50% in favour but without compulsory voting, as in Australia, is there ever going to be a 100% turnout?

    I did vote 'partially' tactically last week; I thought, rightly as it turned out, that the Green was much more likely to beat the Conservative than either the Labour or LD. And I've met him a few times and he seems like one of the 'good guys'!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,354
    alex_ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    You'd have thought that would be sorted via the system ?
    You’d have thought people should be allowed to make an informed choice to accept AZ...
    It’s already leading the local news and will become a national story if it’s happening elsewhere. Some very unhappy punters, particularly as they’ve been waiting for so long.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,264

    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.

    Absolutely - and given they are unwilling to return the favour in seats where the Tories challenge they really don't deserve the help. To paint this result as some sort of Labour triumph is really quite ludicrous.
    Trouble is, voting Tory in such circumstances is also interpreted as supporting the Government.

    I'm not sure how hard I could hold my nose in such circumstances.

    And, while I wish everyone well, it's not the best of mornings here. Where did all this rain come from? Not doing Essex cricket a lot of good, either!
    I’d never vote tactically for the Tories; everything has its limits, after all.

    Generally, tactical voting rests upon the proposition that you are sufficiently strongly opposed to one party’s programme in the round that you are prepared to vote for your second choice party if it has a better chance of beating the party you really don’t like.

    The proposition in Scotland is different - it is based on a single issue of an indy referendum, and asking voters to weigh the strength of their views on that against their views on every other political issue.
    Arguably, the polls suggesting that an independence referendum is finely balanced, it might be better to have it, having agreed that for a positive decision 60% of at least a 70% poll is needed. I know that's overall less than 50% in favour but without compulsory voting, as in Australia, is there ever going to be a 100% turnout?

    I did vote 'partially' tactically last week; I thought, rightly as it turned out, that the Green was much more likely to beat the Conservative than either the Labour or LD. And I've met him a few times and he seems like one of the 'good guys'!
    50%+1 is a majority. If an element of society doesn't want to vote then they don't get to complain who wins.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,354
    edited May 14

    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.

    Absolutely - and given they are unwilling to return the favour in seats where the Tories challenge they really don't deserve the help. To paint this result as some sort of Labour triumph is really quite ludicrous.
    Trouble is, voting Tory in such circumstances is also interpreted as supporting the Government.

    I'm not sure how hard I could hold my nose in such circumstances.

    And, while I wish everyone well, it's not the best of mornings here. Where did all this rain come from? Not doing Essex cricket a lot of good, either!
    I’d never vote tactically for the Tories; everything has its limits, after all.

    Generally, tactical voting rests upon the proposition that you are sufficiently strongly opposed to one party’s programme in the round that you are prepared to vote for your second choice party if it has a better chance of beating the party you really don’t like.

    The proposition in Scotland is different - it is based on a single issue of an indy referendum, and asking voters to weigh the strength of their views on that against their views on every other political issue.
    Arguably, the polls suggesting that an independence referendum is finely balanced, it might be better to have it, having agreed that for a positive decision 60% of at least a 70% poll is needed. I know that's overall less than 50% in favour but without compulsory voting, as in Australia, is there ever going to be a 100% turnout?

    I did vote 'partially' tactically last week; I thought, rightly as it turned out, that the Green was much more likely to beat the Conservative than either the Labour or LD. And I've met him a few times and he seems like one of the 'good guys'!
    That is another factor. Asking people to vote tactically against a referendum is asking people to vote to deny themselves another vote. Which is not unreasonable, but it is also not unreasonable to think that a vote isn’t the end of the world, even if you intend to oppose separation.

    The other point that those who complain that only Scottish Tories are willing to vote tactically are missing is that, since the driver for voting tactically is a single issue, the people willing to do it will be those who feel very strongly about the indy referendum issue above all else. And almost by definition those will mainly be Tories.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 409
    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    I can very possibly see some point in doing this for the under 30s but not the under 40s. Right now the priority is to vaccinate as many people as possible. The risks of blood clots is far lower than from Covid.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,013
    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    Isnt the official guidance for under 40s to take another vaccine IF available. If one is not available surely they can still get AZ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 9,371
    tlg86 said:

    alex_ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    You'd have thought that would be sorted via the system ?
    You’d have thought people should be allowed to make an informed choice to accept AZ...
    At the press conference last week, JVT said that it shouldn't be necessary for someone to be put in that position.
    They also said it is better to have AZ if none other is available iirc.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,770
    tlg86 said:

    alex_ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    You'd have thought that would be sorted via the system ?
    You’d have thought people should be allowed to make an informed choice to accept AZ...
    At the press conference last week, JVT said that it shouldn't be necessary for someone to be put in that position.
    I wouldn’t be surprised if he made that statement without knowledge of the logistics. And yet they acknowledge that the guidance on AZ will slow down the programme. It is absolutely wrong that people should be being turned away having booked a slot. But they should be allowed to take AZ if they wish. The booking site should make it clear which vaccine one will receive and people can make the choice at that point. That they can’t is a massive failing. The way the policy has been presented (at a headline level anyway) is wrong. “U40s should be given a choice of other vaccines” gives the impression that you can choose AZ. Anecdotally people have taken that message. And will get increasingly angry if they struggle to be vaccinated because of a severe precautionary principle. Especially if “experts” are simultaneously citing the unvaccinated cohorts as possible reasons to dial back on the roadmap and/or reintroduce restrictions.

    I sometimes wonder if *some* of the scientists really understand how desperate people are for the vaccine, and how important the maintenance of the roadmap is.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,118

    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.

    Absolutely - and given they are unwilling to return the favour in seats where the Tories challenge they really don't deserve the help. To paint this result as some sort of Labour triumph is really quite ludicrous.
    Trouble is, voting Tory in such circumstances is also interpreted as supporting the Government.

    I'm not sure how hard I could hold my nose in such circumstances.

    And, while I wish everyone well, it's not the best of mornings here. Where did all this rain come from? Not doing Essex cricket a lot of good, either!
    I’d never vote tactically for the Tories; everything has its limits, after all.

    Generally, tactical voting rests upon the proposition that you are sufficiently strongly opposed to one party’s programme in the round that you are prepared to vote for your second choice party if it has a better chance of beating the party you really don’t like.

    The proposition in Scotland is different - it is based on a single issue of an indy referendum, and asking voters to weigh the strength of their views on that against their views on every other political issue.
    Arguably, the polls suggesting that an independence referendum is finely balanced, it might be better to have it, having agreed that for a positive decision 60% of at least a 70% poll is needed. I know that's overall less than 50% in favour but without compulsory voting, as in Australia, is there ever going to be a 100% turnout?

    I did vote 'partially' tactically last week; I thought, rightly as it turned out, that the Green was much more likely to beat the Conservative than either the Labour or LD. And I've met him a few times and he seems like one of the 'good guys'!
    50%+1 is a majority. If an element of society doesn't want to vote then they don't get to complain who wins.
    Must be comforting to see everything as black or white. Or blue or red or whatever.
    Something I've never been able to do.
    Maybe, Mr T, as you mature........
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,770

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    Isnt the official guidance for under 40s to take another vaccine IF available. If one is not available surely they can still get AZ?
    I hope that’s the case. But it’s just as much of a failing if that’s not been made clear the the vaccination centres. If it is then it needs to become national news ASAP.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,013
    alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    Isnt the official guidance for under 40s to take another vaccine IF available. If one is not available surely they can still get AZ?
    I hope that’s the case. But it’s just as much of a failing if that’s not been made clear the the vaccination centres. If it is then it needs to become national news ASAP.
    "As COVID-19 rates continue to come under control, we are advising that adults aged 18 to 39 years with no underlying health conditions are offered an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, if available and if it does not cause delays in having the vaccine. The advice is specific to circumstances in the UK at this time and maximises use of the wide portfolio of vaccines available."

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-advises-on-covid-19-vaccine-for-people-aged-under-40

    It seems very clear.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 3,816
    Two by elections in a row where the, never strong, LD presence has been down among the Binfaces. Tactical? Stay at home? Vanishing?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 9,755
    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,164

    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?

    My son is doing an advanced higher in it this year. I think I would describe it as politics. You study nationalism, populism, liberalism, socialism etc all by reference to real world and relatively recent examples.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,807

    Spirit of Jennie Lee still canvasses the streets, lanes & byways of Airdrie. Somewhat.

    She was first elected to House of Commons for Labour in 1928 by-election for Coatsbridge constituency, when she was still too young (as a then-single woman) to vote. In her maiden speech she denounced Winston Churchill and went on to marry Aneurin Bevan.

    Getting married must have made for a very dramatic maiden speech.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,201
    DavidL said:

    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?

    My son is doing an advanced higher in it this year. I think I would describe it as politics. You study nationalism, populism, liberalism, socialism etc all by reference to real world and relatively recent examples.
    Its name does rather suggest you need to do regular refresher courses for it not to become, well, history....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 17,572

    alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    Isnt the official guidance for under 40s to take another vaccine IF available. If one is not available surely they can still get AZ?
    I hope that’s the case. But it’s just as much of a failing if that’s not been made clear the the vaccination centres. If it is then it needs to become national news ASAP.
    "As COVID-19 rates continue to come under control, we are advising that adults aged 18 to 39 years with no underlying health conditions are offered an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, if available and if it does not cause delays in having the vaccine. The advice is specific to circumstances in the UK at this time and maximises use of the wide portfolio of vaccines available."

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-advises-on-covid-19-vaccine-for-people-aged-under-40

    It seems very clear.
    The problem, I'm quite sure, is the age old problem of people making choices for the patients. And then failing to mention the "choice".

    "The difference between patients and customers is that customers are the ones with rights"....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,164

    There was more Labour effort here than was obvious - when it became obvious that Hartlepool was lost, some full-timers were diverted to Airdrie, and every member in the country got an appeal to help telephone GOTV on the day. That's why I was struck by the lack of interest here (Betfair didn't even bother to have a market, though they offer bets on all kinds of stuff). I think it's a very good result and encouraging for Sarwar despite the grumpy comments from Tories downthread.

    My grumpy comment is wtf were 2812 Tories playing at? I would have voted Labour here in a heart beat and anyone who is a thinking member of the Conservative and UNIONIST party really should have done the same. Yet another opportunity missed.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 9,755
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.

    Absolutely - and given they are unwilling to return the favour in seats where the Tories challenge they really don't deserve the help. To paint this result as some sort of Labour triumph is really quite ludicrous.
    Trouble is, voting Tory in such circumstances is also interpreted as supporting the Government.

    I'm not sure how hard I could hold my nose in such circumstances.

    And, while I wish everyone well, it's not the best of mornings here. Where did all this rain come from? Not doing Essex cricket a lot of good, either!
    I’d never vote tactically for the Tories; everything has its limits, after all.

    Generally, tactical voting rests upon the proposition that you are sufficiently strongly opposed to one party’s programme in the round that you are prepared to vote for your second choice party if it has a better chance of beating the party you really don’t like.

    The proposition in Scotland is different - it is based on a single issue of an indy referendum, and asking voters to weigh the strength of their views on that against their views on every other political issue.
    Arguably, the polls suggesting that an independence referendum is finely balanced, it might be better to have it, having agreed that for a positive decision 60% of at least a 70% poll is needed. I know that's overall less than 50% in favour but without compulsory voting, as in Australia, is there ever going to be a 100% turnout?

    I did vote 'partially' tactically last week; I thought, rightly as it turned out, that the Green was much more likely to beat the Conservative than either the Labour or LD. And I've met him a few times and he seems like one of the 'good guys'!
    That is another factor. Asking people to vote tactically against a referendum is asking people to vote to deny themselves another vote. Which is not unreasonable, but it is also not unreasonable to think that a vote isn’t the end of the world, even if you intend to oppose separation.

    The other point that those who complain that only Scottish Tories are willing to vote tactically are missing is that, since the driver for voting tactically is a single issue, the people willing to do it will be those who feel very strongly about the indy referendum issue above all else. And almost by definition those will mainly be Tories.
    Is the last paragraph correct? It might be true that Tories feel most strongly about a referendum, but surely not "by definition". And another factor in tactical voting is the question of whom to vote for, which would be Labour, who started from second place. So from the outside it would appear that Conservatives were more willing to vote tactically but we cannot know how many Labour supporters were also willing but in their case the tactical option was also their first choice.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,164
    Andy_JS said:

    Unionists finally getting their tactical voting mojo going, but:

    SNP, still winning here.

    7 pro-Union candidates getting 53.6%, one pro-independence candidate getting 46.4%.
    So many seats won in the Scottish Parliament were like that. Unless and until the Unionists realise what the main problem is for all of them the SNP will continue to dominate.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 9,371

    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?

    Google result 1 - from Forres Academy.

    Modern Studies is contemporary and dynamic subject that focuses on the world we live in today. It covers key elements of the modern world such as politics, sociology and international relations. Issues range from political ideology and democratic government to human rights issues and crime. This is framed in Scottish, British and world contexts, to give students diverse and exciting perspectives on the world we live in. Pupils will develop transferable skills that can be applied across their school career, as well as those more specific to Modern Studies. They will learn to critically analysis information and develop research skills to access evidence. They will also develop a range of skills such as presentation, debate, role play and team work, by encouraging pupils to be creative in both thought and production, as well as reinforcing literacy and numeracy skills required for Higher and Further Education.


    ie It's the current name for "all the other stuff we think you need".
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,201

    There was more Labour effort here than was obvious - when it became obvious that Hartlepool was lost, some full-timers were diverted to Airdrie, and every member in the country got an appeal to help telephone GOTV on the day. That's why I was struck by the lack of interest here (Betfair didn't even bother to have a market, though they offer bets on all kinds of stuff). I think it's a very good result and encouraging for Sarwar despite the grumpy comments from Tories downthread.

    In what way is your vote, less the votes lent by other parties, going down "a very good result"?

    I know it's Labour maths and all that, but pointing out reality is hardly being grumpy....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,963
    Massive climbdown from NHS and government over telephone-only GP appointments.

    Huge win for Telegraph to be honest, which appears to have sunk this policy within 48 hours.




    Every patient to have right to see a GP as NHS abandons ‘total triage’

    Climbdown comes after The Telegraph revealed patients were being discouraged from visits and told to have online or phone discussion first
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/13/every-patient-have-right-see-gp-nhs-abandons-total-triage/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,355
    PSA

    🚨 | NEW: Vaccine passports will be required to enter strip clubs when they reopen

    Via @TheSun
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 12,484
    Two entertaining (for me) stories overnight.

    First was Howard "vote for me" Beckett calling for Priti Patel to be deported. His suspension from Labour has caused uproar - all the "I'm an anti-racism campaigner me" activists think it outrageous that open racist comments are acted upon when it's one of their own. Don't Labour know that Mr Beckett cannot be racist or post racist stupid comments because he is one of them?

    Second was the shock that the Indian Covid variant is here and is surging. The government could have chosen to stop incomers from India, but instead did Sod All until it was far too late. No wonder that (a) the internal Covid report is so scathing as to be buried and (b) the public enquiry has been long grassed so that it reports after the next election.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 9,755
    Dura_Ace said:

    UKIP 39 votes. LOL. What's the point of them now? They are just a slightly more intellectually and philosophically coherent version of the tories but with no money.

    LibDems on 220 votes might ask the same question.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,164

    DavidL said:

    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?

    My son is doing an advanced higher in it this year. I think I would describe it as politics. You study nationalism, populism, liberalism, socialism etc all by reference to real world and relatively recent examples.
    Its name does rather suggest you need to do regular refresher courses for it not to become, well, history....
    Let's just say that the Modern Studies that my wife did at school is now covered by a different department. But say it quietly please.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,770

    alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    Isnt the official guidance for under 40s to take another vaccine IF available. If one is not available surely they can still get AZ?
    I hope that’s the case. But it’s just as much of a failing if that’s not been made clear the the vaccination centres. If it is then it needs to become national news ASAP.
    "As COVID-19 rates continue to come under control, we are advising that adults aged 18 to 39 years with no underlying health conditions are offered an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, if available and if it does not cause delays in having the vaccine. The advice is specific to circumstances in the UK at this time and maximises use of the wide portfolio of vaccines available."

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-advises-on-covid-19-vaccine-for-people-aged-under-40

    It seems very clear.
    And yet it is widely stated that the changes guidance will cause some delays in the rollout. So the actual guidance from JCVI may be clear. The way it is being (apparently) interpreted is not. And the fact is that the booking website does not state the vaccine that you will receive when booking. Which inevitably either causes delays because people are being restricted to non AZ sites when booking, or (if anecdotal evidence above is true) are being denied the vaccine on presentation.

    That’s what happens when policies are implemented/guidance is put forward without fully considering how it will be implemented in the real world.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    MattW said:

    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?

    Google result 1 - from Forres Academy.

    Modern Studies is contemporary and dynamic subject that focuses on the world we live in today. It covers key elements of the modern world such as politics, sociology and international relations. Issues range from political ideology and democratic government to human rights issues and crime. This is framed in Scottish, British and world contexts, to give students diverse and exciting perspectives on the world we live in. Pupils will develop transferable skills that can be applied across their school career, as well as those more specific to Modern Studies. They will learn to critically analysis information and develop research skills to access evidence. They will also develop a range of skills such as presentation, debate, role play and team work, by encouraging pupils to be creative in both thought and production, as well as reinforcing literacy and numeracy skills required for Higher and Further Education.


    ie It's the current name for "all the other stuff we think you need".
    PB without the trash talk, then ?

    I was delighted to note 'Modern Studies' is more than half a century old.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,963
    edited May 14

    Two entertaining (for me) stories overnight.

    First was Howard "vote for me" Beckett calling for Priti Patel to be deported. His suspension from Labour has caused uproar - all the "I'm an anti-racism campaigner me" activists think it outrageous that open racist comments are acted upon when it's one of their own. Don't Labour know that Mr Beckett cannot be racist or post racist stupid comments because he is one of them?

    Second was the shock that the Indian Covid variant is here and is surging. The government could have chosen to stop incomers from India, but instead did Sod All until it was far too late. No wonder that (a) the internal Covid report is so scathing as to be buried and (b) the public enquiry has been long grassed so that it reports after the next election.

    To be honest, if (and it is early days of this) the Indian variant does escape vaccine enough to cause major problems then it is probably just as well the inquiry doesn't start until next year, because the people who matter will be v busy clearing up Johnson's mess all thru this summer and autumn.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,664
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, aye. Bit like the Diadochi if they hadn't stopped squabbling and united to fight against Antigonus.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,013
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?

    Google result 1 - from Forres Academy.

    Modern Studies is contemporary and dynamic subject that focuses on the world we live in today. It covers key elements of the modern world such as politics, sociology and international relations. Issues range from political ideology and democratic government to human rights issues and crime. This is framed in Scottish, British and world contexts, to give students diverse and exciting perspectives on the world we live in. Pupils will develop transferable skills that can be applied across their school career, as well as those more specific to Modern Studies. They will learn to critically analysis information and develop research skills to access evidence. They will also develop a range of skills such as presentation, debate, role play and team work, by encouraging pupils to be creative in both thought and production, as well as reinforcing literacy and numeracy skills required for Higher and Further Education.


    ie It's the current name for "all the other stuff we think you need".
    PB without the trash talk, then ?

    I was delighted to note 'Modern Studies' is more than half a century old.
    Modules on pizza toppings, and best albums of the nineties?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 16,895
    DavidL said:

    There was more Labour effort here than was obvious - when it became obvious that Hartlepool was lost, some full-timers were diverted to Airdrie, and every member in the country got an appeal to help telephone GOTV on the day. That's why I was struck by the lack of interest here (Betfair didn't even bother to have a market, though they offer bets on all kinds of stuff). I think it's a very good result and encouraging for Sarwar despite the grumpy comments from Tories downthread.

    My grumpy comment is wtf were 2812 Tories playing at? I would have voted Labour here in a heart beat and anyone who is a thinking member of the Conservative and UNIONIST party really should have done the same. Yet another opportunity missed.
    Sorry, didn't see your comment, was primarily thinking of Marquee Mark, who clearly rates Labour losing more highly than keeping the country together. I think it's a good result simply because it shows the long drought in Scottish Labour is easing and they're becoming more transfer-friendly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735

    Two entertaining (for me) stories overnight.

    First was Howard "vote for me" Beckett calling for Priti Patel to be deported. His suspension from Labour has caused uproar - all the "I'm an anti-racism campaigner me" activists think it outrageous that open racist comments are acted upon when it's one of their own. Don't Labour know that Mr Beckett cannot be racist or post racist stupid comments because he is one of them?

    Second was the shock that the Indian Covid variant is here and is surging. The government could have chosen to stop incomers from India, but instead did Sod All until it was far too late. No wonder that (a) the internal Covid report is so scathing as to be buried and (b) the public enquiry has been long grassed so that it reports after the next election.

    To be honest, if (and it is early days of this) the Indian variant does escape vaccine enough to cause major problems then it is probably just as well the inquiry doesn't start until next year, because the people who matter will be clearing up Johnson's mess all thru this summer and autumn.

    It probably won't, but given the costs if it were to do so, it's utterly incomprehensible that the government didn't introduce either travel restrictions, or a genuine quarantine system (as opposed to the current theatre) to prevent its widespread introduction.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,963
    algarkirk said:

    Two by elections in a row where the, never strong, LD presence has been down among the Binfaces. Tactical? Stay at home? Vanishing?

    Not even a LD bar chart can make this look good.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,164

    There was more Labour effort here than was obvious - when it became obvious that Hartlepool was lost, some full-timers were diverted to Airdrie, and every member in the country got an appeal to help telephone GOTV on the day. That's why I was struck by the lack of interest here (Betfair didn't even bother to have a market, though they offer bets on all kinds of stuff). I think it's a very good result and encouraging for Sarwar despite the grumpy comments from Tories downthread.

    In what way is your vote, less the votes lent by other parties, going down "a very good result"?

    I know it's Labour maths and all that, but pointing out reality is hardly being grumpy....
    Where I would agree with you Mark is that there is no evidence that Sarwar being liked is helping Labour recover the supporters it has lost to the SNP over the last 20 years. Labour in Scotland are still sadly far more obsessed with opposing the Tories than taking on the party that has wiped them out. If Labour are to recover in Scotland they need to retrain their guns onto the only other party that will ever hold a seat like Airdrie & Shotts.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 19,632
    I see the US is gradually removing the requirement for masks:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/13/politics/joe-biden-cdc-mask-guidance/index.html
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,770
    Surely by now there must be a fair bit of real world evidence (from India) of how effective AZ (at least) is against the “Indian variant”? They have vaccinated a hell of a lot of people.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,013

    Two entertaining (for me) stories overnight.

    First was Howard "vote for me" Beckett calling for Priti Patel to be deported. His suspension from Labour has caused uproar - all the "I'm an anti-racism campaigner me" activists think it outrageous that open racist comments are acted upon when it's one of their own. Don't Labour know that Mr Beckett cannot be racist or post racist stupid comments because he is one of them?

    Second was the shock that the Indian Covid variant is here and is surging. The government could have chosen to stop incomers from India, but instead did Sod All until it was far too late. No wonder that (a) the internal Covid report is so scathing as to be buried and (b) the public enquiry has been long grassed so that it reports after the next election.

    To be honest, if (and it is early days of this) the Indian variant does escape vaccine enough to cause major problems then it is probably just as well the inquiry doesn't start until next year, because the people who matter will be v busy clearing up Johnson's mess all thru this summer and autumn.

    I see that things are getting iffy again in the Western Pacific.

    https://twitter.com/BBCLBicker/status/1393085158316679169?s=19

    The cases of vaccine breakthrough in Singapore Airport too:

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1392366780828553221?s=19

    It really would have been wise to red list India a bit more promptly.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    edited May 14
    Nigelb said:

    Conclusive evidence further demonstrating that the vaccine booster delay was a correct decision.

    Delay in giving second jabs of Pfizer vaccine improves immunity
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/may/14/delay-in-giving-second-jabs-of-pfizer-vaccine-improves-immunity

    Something else the BMA got wrong:

    https://apnews.com/article/international-news-europe-england-coronavirus-vaccine-coronavirus-pandemic-a3bebf20803869792f1bdf6c0dc0c8a7

    The British Medical Association on Saturday urged England’s chief medical officer to “urgently review the U.K.’s current position of second doses after 12 weeks.”

    In a statement, the association said there was “growing concern from the medical profession regarding the delay of the second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine as Britain’s strategy has become increasingly isolated from many other countries.”
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,942

    DavidL said:

    There was more Labour effort here than was obvious - when it became obvious that Hartlepool was lost, some full-timers were diverted to Airdrie, and every member in the country got an appeal to help telephone GOTV on the day. That's why I was struck by the lack of interest here (Betfair didn't even bother to have a market, though they offer bets on all kinds of stuff). I think it's a very good result and encouraging for Sarwar despite the grumpy comments from Tories downthread.

    My grumpy comment is wtf were 2812 Tories playing at? I would have voted Labour here in a heart beat and anyone who is a thinking member of the Conservative and UNIONIST party really should have done the same. Yet another opportunity missed.
    Sorry, didn't see your comment, was primarily thinking of Marquee Mark, who clearly rates Labour losing more highly than keeping the country together. I think it's a good result simply because it shows the long drought in Scottish Labour is easing and they're becoming more transfer-friendly.
    Perhaps ....

    I don't do "tactical voting" myself .... but my guess is that the most propitious occasion for tactical voting is a by-election without many consequences riding on the results.

    Eg, the huge anti-Tory swings to the LibDems in the by-elections of the Thatcherite years were driven by tactical voters & the LibDems usually fell back at the constituency at the GE.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,164

    DavidL said:

    There was more Labour effort here than was obvious - when it became obvious that Hartlepool was lost, some full-timers were diverted to Airdrie, and every member in the country got an appeal to help telephone GOTV on the day. That's why I was struck by the lack of interest here (Betfair didn't even bother to have a market, though they offer bets on all kinds of stuff). I think it's a very good result and encouraging for Sarwar despite the grumpy comments from Tories downthread.

    My grumpy comment is wtf were 2812 Tories playing at? I would have voted Labour here in a heart beat and anyone who is a thinking member of the Conservative and UNIONIST party really should have done the same. Yet another opportunity missed.
    Sorry, didn't see your comment, was primarily thinking of Marquee Mark, who clearly rates Labour losing more highly than keeping the country together. I think it's a good result simply because it shows the long drought in Scottish Labour is easing and they're becoming more transfer-friendly.
    The consolidation of the Unionist vote is a necessary but not sufficient step. Labour need to develop a policy platform that addresses the concern of what was their traditional vote better than the SNP. This means attacking the SNP for the mess that is Scottish education, the Scottish health service, the strangulation of local government to fund Nicola's freebies and to make the case that independence is the path to economic ruin. But they would rather talk about what Boris is doing in Westminster.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 9,371
    Scott_xP said:

    PSA

    🚨 | NEW: Vaccine passports will be required to enter strip clubs when they reopen

    Via @TheSun

    That looks like a Court Challenge incoming.

    I wonder if Great Jumping Jolyon will take it on?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 9,755
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?

    Google result 1 - from Forres Academy.

    Modern Studies is contemporary and dynamic subject that focuses on the world we live in today. It covers key elements of the modern world such as politics, sociology and international relations. Issues range from political ideology and democratic government to human rights issues and crime. This is framed in Scottish, British and world contexts, to give students diverse and exciting perspectives on the world we live in. Pupils will develop transferable skills that can be applied across their school career, as well as those more specific to Modern Studies. They will learn to critically analysis information and develop research skills to access evidence. They will also develop a range of skills such as presentation, debate, role play and team work, by encouraging pupils to be creative in both thought and production, as well as reinforcing literacy and numeracy skills required for Higher and Further Education.


    ie It's the current name for "all the other stuff we think you need".
    PB without the trash talk, then ?

    I was delighted to note 'Modern Studies' is more than half a century old.
    PB without the proof-reading, judging by "They will learn to critically analysis information".

    Which is PB. :wink:
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 2,042

    Massive climbdown from NHS and government over telephone-only GP appointments.

    Huge win for Telegraph to be honest, which appears to have sunk this policy within 48 hours.




    Every patient to have right to see a GP as NHS abandons ‘total triage’

    Climbdown comes after The Telegraph revealed patients were being discouraged from visits and told to have online or phone discussion first
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/13/every-patient-have-right-see-gp-nhs-abandons-total-triage/

    My local surgery is still locked up, impossible to get an appointment
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    edited May 14
    https://twitter.com/robertcuffe/status/1393086987523997696?s=20

    Tweet has image of Bolton areas vaccinated vs infected (image only posts unreadably small)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,164

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, aye. Bit like the Diadochi if they hadn't stopped squabbling and united to fight against Antigonus.

    Exactly so Morris, exactly so. Perhaps the denizens of Airdrie and Shotts lack an adequate classical education.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,963

    Massive climbdown from NHS and government over telephone-only GP appointments.

    Huge win for Telegraph to be honest, which appears to have sunk this policy within 48 hours.




    Every patient to have right to see a GP as NHS abandons ‘total triage’

    Climbdown comes after The Telegraph revealed patients were being discouraged from visits and told to have online or phone discussion first
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/13/every-patient-have-right-see-gp-nhs-abandons-total-triage/

    My local surgery is still locked up, impossible to get an appointment
    i think they can remain so during pandemic. the argument this week was about what nhs is telling gps to do in medium term after covid restrictions lifted this summer.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,942



    No wonder that (a) the internal Covid report is so scathing as to be buried and (b) the public enquiry has been long grassed so that it reports after the next election.

    There is nothing to stop the Welsh & Scottish Governments having their own inquiries into the handling of COVID in their countries (which would also comment indirectly on the effects of UK-wide government policy in those countries).

    In fact, the Welsh Tories & Plaid Cymru have called for this.

    But, Llafur in Wales have been adamant that we do not need an inquiry into the behaviour of the Welsh Government's handling of COVID.

    Funny that.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 20,898

    Tories and LibDems did their bit at Airdrie to unseat the SNP - tactical voting donated 7.3% to Labour. However, with the Labour vote only going up 6.5%, they let the Unionist side down, going backwards.

    Labour is still not in a position to tackle the SNP. Even with the help of its political rivals.

    Labour retained Dumbarton and Ed Southern on the basis of Unionist tactical voting. Thr SNP had gained enough vote share to overhaul the 2016 winning margin.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,664
    Mr. L, to be fair, I only learnt of the Diadochi after I'd left school.

    Although, I wonder if a more apt comparison might be the Romano-Gothic alliance that stopped Attila.

    Hmm.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 2,042

    Massive climbdown from NHS and government over telephone-only GP appointments.

    Huge win for Telegraph to be honest, which appears to have sunk this policy within 48 hours.




    Every patient to have right to see a GP as NHS abandons ‘total triage’

    Climbdown comes after The Telegraph revealed patients were being discouraged from visits and told to have online or phone discussion first
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/13/every-patient-have-right-see-gp-nhs-abandons-total-triage/

    My local surgery is still locked up, impossible to get an appointment
    i think they can remain so during pandemic. the argument this week was about what nhs is telling gps to do in medium term after covid restrictions lifted this summer.
    My parents are having to fund minor treatment themselves, as an example my dad needed both ears syringed due to an infection and had to go private to get it done.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,770
    Seems to me there’s a fundamental potential contradiction in the talk of “vaccination surges” to combat Indian variant. Either the vaccines are effective in preventing serious illness from this variant - in which case this is largely likely to be a casedemic and shouldn’t be elevated to the level of concern that it is. Or they aren’t, in which case vaccine surges will serve little health purpose.

    We really need some real world data on effects on combatting serious illness on a vaccinated population so that we can rationally decide whether to panic about it.

    It concerns me that scientists are starting to put forward models including relatively very low numbers of deaths (there was one the other day referencing 9000 by March!) as a reason to be cautious about easing restrictions.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,963

    Massive climbdown from NHS and government over telephone-only GP appointments.

    Huge win for Telegraph to be honest, which appears to have sunk this policy within 48 hours.




    Every patient to have right to see a GP as NHS abandons ‘total triage’

    Climbdown comes after The Telegraph revealed patients were being discouraged from visits and told to have online or phone discussion first
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/13/every-patient-have-right-see-gp-nhs-abandons-total-triage/

    My local surgery is still locked up, impossible to get an appointment
    i think they can remain so during pandemic. the argument this week was about what nhs is telling gps to do in medium term after covid restrictions lifted this summer.
    My parents are having to fund minor treatment themselves, as an example my dad needed both ears syringed due to an infection and had to go private to get it done.
    I have heard a similar story from a mate.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 30,757
    edited May 14
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?

    Google result 1 - from Forres Academy.

    Modern Studies is contemporary and dynamic subject that focuses on the world we live in today. It covers key elements of the modern world such as politics, sociology and international relations. Issues range from political ideology and democratic government to human rights issues and crime. This is framed in Scottish, British and world contexts, to give students diverse and exciting perspectives on the world we live in. Pupils will develop transferable skills that can be applied across their school career, as well as those more specific to Modern Studies. They will learn to critically analysis information and develop research skills to access evidence. They will also develop a range of skills such as presentation, debate, role play and team work, by encouraging pupils to be creative in both thought and production, as well as reinforcing literacy and numeracy skills required for Higher and Further Education.


    ie It's the current name for "all the other stuff we think you need".
    PB without the trash talk, then ?

    I was delighted to note 'Modern Studies' is more than half a century old.
    "Modern art" by some estimates began in the middle of the 19th century.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 20,898
    edited May 14
    "Labour needs to stop attacking the Tories in Scotland" is right up there with "start a land war in Asia" as bad advice.

    SLab lost voters to the Conservatives. SLab were tarred and feathered for standing with the Conservatives during IndyRef. SLab spend lots and lots of time attacking the SNP.

    They have to win back Unionist voters who switched to Con and soft Indy voters who switched to SNP because they were disgusted by SLab standing with Con, they do that by attacking Con.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,354
    edited May 14

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    Isnt the official guidance for under 40s to take another vaccine IF available. If one is not available surely they can still get AZ?
    That does appear to be the national guidance, at least as initially reported by the BBC. However the island's main vaccine centre is saying that they are "not allowed" to give the AZN. Unless advice has changed before it was transmitted out to the field, this may be a case of whoever runs the island's vaccination centre not understanding, in which case hopefully s/he'll soon be put straight. You can imagine how upset people are; I'd have been furious, waiting anxiously for months and then turning up there, if I'd been sent home.

    As it is, I did my NHS antibody test yesterday afternoon (as part of the random sampling study) and it showed I had long-term antibodies after my single AZN, which is very reassuring!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,164
    Foxy said:

    Two entertaining (for me) stories overnight.

    First was Howard "vote for me" Beckett calling for Priti Patel to be deported. His suspension from Labour has caused uproar - all the "I'm an anti-racism campaigner me" activists think it outrageous that open racist comments are acted upon when it's one of their own. Don't Labour know that Mr Beckett cannot be racist or post racist stupid comments because he is one of them?

    Second was the shock that the Indian Covid variant is here and is surging. The government could have chosen to stop incomers from India, but instead did Sod All until it was far too late. No wonder that (a) the internal Covid report is so scathing as to be buried and (b) the public enquiry has been long grassed so that it reports after the next election.

    To be honest, if (and it is early days of this) the Indian variant does escape vaccine enough to cause major problems then it is probably just as well the inquiry doesn't start until next year, because the people who matter will be v busy clearing up Johnson's mess all thru this summer and autumn.

    I see that things are getting iffy again in the Western Pacific.

    https://twitter.com/BBCLBicker/status/1393085158316679169?s=19

    The cases of vaccine breakthrough in Singapore Airport too:

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1392366780828553221?s=19

    It really would have been wise to red list India a bit more promptly.
    Masterful understatement but so long as our vaccines remain effective we should be ok, probably.

    I did hear a statistic on R4 the other day that only 1% of vaccines had been delivered in the poorest countries of the world. I am slightly disappointed that we are not obviously still accelerating our efforts here so we can get on with the genuinely massive task of helping poor counties vaccinate as well to reduce this pernicious virus to more modest levels. Our own vaccination rates seem more like 300k a day recently than the 600k we were touching a week or two ago.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,470
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2021/may/13/glasgow-protesters-celebrate-after-blocking-immigration-raid-video

    Well done Glasgow. Although, ideally it should have ended with the van upside down and on fire.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 87,889
    edited May 14
    Yet more evidence of the Unionist tactical voting that deprived the SNP of a majority last week in Airdrie and Shotts then.

    The SNP majority not only down 7% on the 2019 general election but also down 11% from the majority it got in the equivalent Scottish Parliament seat a week ago
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 2,042

    Massive climbdown from NHS and government over telephone-only GP appointments.

    Huge win for Telegraph to be honest, which appears to have sunk this policy within 48 hours.




    Every patient to have right to see a GP as NHS abandons ‘total triage’

    Climbdown comes after The Telegraph revealed patients were being discouraged from visits and told to have online or phone discussion first
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/13/every-patient-have-right-see-gp-nhs-abandons-total-triage/

    My local surgery is still locked up, impossible to get an appointment
    i think they can remain so during pandemic. the argument this week was about what nhs is telling gps to do in medium term after covid restrictions lifted this summer.
    My parents are having to fund minor treatment themselves, as an example my dad needed both ears syringed due to an infection and had to go private to get it done.
    I have heard a similar story from a mate.
    The difference is surgery's approaches to Covid is incredible, many have remained fully throughout the pandemic and have operated almost normally. Others have remained closed. It really is the luck of the draw as to where you live as to what service you will get from your surgery.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,770


    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Two entertaining (for me) stories overnight.

    First was Howard "vote for me" Beckett calling for Priti Patel to be deported. His suspension from Labour has caused uproar - all the "I'm an anti-racism campaigner me" activists think it outrageous that open racist comments are acted upon when it's one of their own. Don't Labour know that Mr Beckett cannot be racist or post racist stupid comments because he is one of them?

    Second was the shock that the Indian Covid variant is here and is surging. The government could have chosen to stop incomers from India, but instead did Sod All until it was far too late. No wonder that (a) the internal Covid report is so scathing as to be buried and (b) the public enquiry has been long grassed so that it reports after the next election.

    To be honest, if (and it is early days of this) the Indian variant does escape vaccine enough to cause major problems then it is probably just as well the inquiry doesn't start until next year, because the people who matter will be v busy clearing up Johnson's mess all thru this summer and autumn.

    I see that things are getting iffy again in the Western Pacific.

    https://twitter.com/BBCLBicker/status/1393085158316679169?s=19

    The cases of vaccine breakthrough in Singapore Airport too:

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1392366780828553221?s=19

    It really would have been wise to red list India a bit more promptly.
    Masterful understatement but so long as our vaccines remain effective we should be ok, probably.

    I did hear a statistic on R4 the other day that only 1% of vaccines had been delivered in the poorest countries of the world. I am slightly disappointed that we are not obviously still accelerating our efforts here so we can get on with the genuinely massive task of helping poor counties vaccinate as well to reduce this pernicious virus to more modest levels. Our own vaccination rates seem more like 300k a day recently than the 600k we were touching a week or two ago.
    630k yesterday. Although maybe you were talking averages.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Two entertaining (for me) stories overnight.

    First was Howard "vote for me" Beckett calling for Priti Patel to be deported. His suspension from Labour has caused uproar - all the "I'm an anti-racism campaigner me" activists think it outrageous that open racist comments are acted upon when it's one of their own. Don't Labour know that Mr Beckett cannot be racist or post racist stupid comments because he is one of them?

    Second was the shock that the Indian Covid variant is here and is surging. The government could have chosen to stop incomers from India, but instead did Sod All until it was far too late. No wonder that (a) the internal Covid report is so scathing as to be buried and (b) the public enquiry has been long grassed so that it reports after the next election.

    To be honest, if (and it is early days of this) the Indian variant does escape vaccine enough to cause major problems then it is probably just as well the inquiry doesn't start until next year, because the people who matter will be v busy clearing up Johnson's mess all thru this summer and autumn.

    I see that things are getting iffy again in the Western Pacific.

    https://twitter.com/BBCLBicker/status/1393085158316679169?s=19

    The cases of vaccine breakthrough in Singapore Airport too:

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1392366780828553221?s=19

    It really would have been wise to red list India a bit more promptly.
    Our own vaccination rates seem more like 300k a day recently than the 600k we were touching a week or two ago.
    Vaccines minister Nadhim Zahawi on #r4today just now: "You will see bigger and bigger numbers today, tomorrow and so on."

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1393104365171392514?s=20
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    The newly-elected Anum Qaisar-Javed MP is, we are told by the Wikipedia link in the header, a teacher of modern studies.

    What is, or are, modern studies?

    Google result 1 - from Forres Academy.

    Modern Studies is contemporary and dynamic subject that focuses on the world we live in today. It covers key elements of the modern world such as politics, sociology and international relations. Issues range from political ideology and democratic government to human rights issues and crime. This is framed in Scottish, British and world contexts, to give students diverse and exciting perspectives on the world we live in. Pupils will develop transferable skills that can be applied across their school career, as well as those more specific to Modern Studies. They will learn to critically analysis information and develop research skills to access evidence. They will also develop a range of skills such as presentation, debate, role play and team work, by encouraging pupils to be creative in both thought and production, as well as reinforcing literacy and numeracy skills required for Higher and Further Education.


    ie It's the current name for "all the other stuff we think you need".
    PB without the trash talk, then ?

    I was delighted to note 'Modern Studies' is more than half a century old.
    Modules on pizza toppings, and best albums of the nineties?
    What are those, if not modern studies ?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 9,755
    DavidL said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, aye. Bit like the Diadochi if they hadn't stopped squabbling and united to fight against Antigonus.

    Exactly so Morris, exactly so. Perhaps the denizens of Airdrie and Shotts lack an adequate classical education.
    They might have to get a classical education now that their Modern Studies teacher has upped and left.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,354
    edited May 14
    alex_ said:

    tlg86 said:

    alex_ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    You'd have thought that would be sorted via the system ?
    You’d have thought people should be allowed to make an informed choice to accept AZ...
    At the press conference last week, JVT said that it shouldn't be necessary for someone to be put in that position.
    I wouldn’t be surprised if he made that statement without knowledge of the logistics. And yet they acknowledge that the guidance on AZ will slow down the programme. It is absolutely wrong that people should be being turned away having booked a slot. But they should be allowed to take AZ if they wish. The booking site should make it clear which vaccine one will receive and people can make the choice at that point. That they can’t is a massive failing. The way the policy has been presented (at a headline level anyway) is wrong. “U40s should be given a choice of other vaccines” gives the impression that you can choose AZ. Anecdotally people have taken that message. And will get increasingly angry if they struggle to be vaccinated because of a severe precautionary principle. Especially if “experts” are simultaneously citing the unvaccinated cohorts as possible reasons to dial back on the roadmap and/or reintroduce restrictions.

    I sometimes wonder if *some* of the scientists really understand how desperate people are for the vaccine, and how important the maintenance of the roadmap is.
    It may be an island problem, because it appears the policy is that under-40s are to be "directed" toward vaccination centres that have the Pfizer or Moderna. It's just that the island one hasn't got any (and that the system still allows them to choose the local centre and then they get turned away), and therefore people are being presented with the choice of a ferry trip and onward travel on North Island in order to get it.

    As others have said, provided people know their appointment is for the AZN I don't see why they can't choose.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,306

    https://twitter.com/robertcuffe/status/1393086987523997696?s=20

    Tweet has image of Bolton areas vaccinated vs infected (image only posts unreadably small)

    They also correspond pretty well to ethnicity and Labour voting.

    Suggests that predictions that covid will become an inner urban disease are likely to be right.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 4,347
    edited May 14
    alex_ said:

    Surely by now there must be a fair bit of real world evidence (from India) of how effective AZ (at least) is against the “Indian variant”? They have vaccinated a hell of a lot of people.

    They had someone on the World At One yesterday talking about a cluster of cases among hospital nurses in New Delhi who had been fully vaccinated with AZ.

    The key points they made were that there was evidence of transmission between the nurses, but all the cases were mild.

    It's not great if it can still spread, because (a) you have immuno-compromised people who can't be vaccinated who will be at risk, (b) the more it spreads the more risk that it mutates further, and, (c) if it runs rampant through the people administering vaccines there's a risk of infecting a load of people just at the last point where they're still vulnerable.

    It could clearly be a lot worse, though.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 9,371

    DavidL said:

    There was more Labour effort here than was obvious - when it became obvious that Hartlepool was lost, some full-timers were diverted to Airdrie, and every member in the country got an appeal to help telephone GOTV on the day. That's why I was struck by the lack of interest here (Betfair didn't even bother to have a market, though they offer bets on all kinds of stuff). I think it's a very good result and encouraging for Sarwar despite the grumpy comments from Tories downthread.

    My grumpy comment is wtf were 2812 Tories playing at? I would have voted Labour here in a heart beat and anyone who is a thinking member of the Conservative and UNIONIST party really should have done the same. Yet another opportunity missed.
    Sorry, didn't see your comment, was primarily thinking of Marquee Mark, who clearly rates Labour losing more highly than keeping the country together. I think it's a good result simply because it shows the long drought in Scottish Labour is easing and they're becoming more transfer-friendly.
    Perhaps ....

    I don't do "tactical voting" myself .... but my guess is that the most propitious occasion for tactical voting is a by-election without many consequences riding on the results.

    Eg, the huge anti-Tory swings to the LibDems in the by-elections of the Thatcherite years were driven by tactical voters & the LibDems usually fell back at the constituency at the GE.
    Is there perhaps different voter behaviour between Holyrood and Westminster elections?

    I'm sure I saw a limited analysis showing some (Not a Lot) tactical voting both Toy-Lab and vice versa in the Holyrood Election.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,354

    Massive climbdown from NHS and government over telephone-only GP appointments.

    Huge win for Telegraph to be honest, which appears to have sunk this policy within 48 hours.




    Every patient to have right to see a GP as NHS abandons ‘total triage’

    Climbdown comes after The Telegraph revealed patients were being discouraged from visits and told to have online or phone discussion first
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/13/every-patient-have-right-see-gp-nhs-abandons-total-triage/

    My local surgery is still locked up, impossible to get an appointment
    i think they can remain so during pandemic. the argument this week was about what nhs is telling gps to do in medium term after covid restrictions lifted this summer.
    My parents are having to fund minor treatment themselves, as an example my dad needed both ears syringed due to an infection and had to go private to get it done.
    That has become pretty standard before the pandemic. For some reason my mother thinks she needs this done every couple of years, and she's had to go private for the last couple. I don't know whether the NHS has decided it's not a required treatment or whether it's that the risk of infection outweighs any benefit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 17,572
    edited May 14

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Two entertaining (for me) stories overnight.

    First was Howard "vote for me" Beckett calling for Priti Patel to be deported. His suspension from Labour has caused uproar - all the "I'm an anti-racism campaigner me" activists think it outrageous that open racist comments are acted upon when it's one of their own. Don't Labour know that Mr Beckett cannot be racist or post racist stupid comments because he is one of them?

    Second was the shock that the Indian Covid variant is here and is surging. The government could have chosen to stop incomers from India, but instead did Sod All until it was far too late. No wonder that (a) the internal Covid report is so scathing as to be buried and (b) the public enquiry has been long grassed so that it reports after the next election.

    To be honest, if (and it is early days of this) the Indian variant does escape vaccine enough to cause major problems then it is probably just as well the inquiry doesn't start until next year, because the people who matter will be v busy clearing up Johnson's mess all thru this summer and autumn.

    I see that things are getting iffy again in the Western Pacific.

    https://twitter.com/BBCLBicker/status/1393085158316679169?s=19

    The cases of vaccine breakthrough in Singapore Airport too:

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1392366780828553221?s=19

    It really would have been wise to red list India a bit more promptly.
    Our own vaccination rates seem more like 300k a day recently than the 600k we were touching a week or two ago.
    Vaccines minister Nadhim Zahawi on #r4today just now: "You will see bigger and bigger numbers today, tomorrow and so on."

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1393104365171392514?s=20
    image

    "Dry" April & May has actually seen a increase in overall vaccination numbers
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 28,980
    Lofl, BBC R4 in its 24hr rolling psychoanalysis of Prince Harry: The Palace feels that Meghan has effectively radicalised Harry.
    He’ll be strapping on a suicide belt afore we know it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,013
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    This move below 40 for vaccinations seems to be causing problems because of the decision not to use AZN. At my centre people with appointments are arriving to be turned away because AZN is all they have there currently, and they’re not able to use it for under-40s.

    Isnt the official guidance for under 40s to take another vaccine IF available. If one is not available surely they can still get AZ?
    That does appear to be the national guidance, at least as initially reported by the BBC. However the island's main vaccine centre is saying that they are "not allowed" to give the AZN. Unless advice has changed before it was transmitted out to the field, this may be a case of whoever runs the island's vaccination centre not understanding, in which case hopefully s/he'll soon be put straight. You can imagine how upset people are; I'd have been furious, waiting anxiously for months and then turning up there, if I'd been sent home.

    As it is, I did my NHS antibody test yesterday afternoon (as part of the random sampling study) and it showed I had long-term antibodies after my single AZN, which is very reassuring!
    It is the guidance on the govt official website, which for covid stuff does tend to be updated on the day anything changes. It is also what was said in the press conferences, it baffles me how this can end up misunderstood.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    edited May 14
    Letter to Science regarding the origins of the virus, with which I am in agreement (though I still think the natural origin account the more likely).

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1
    ...Although there were no findings in clear support of either a natural spillover or a lab accident, the team assessed a zoonotic spillover from an intermediate host as “likely to very likely,” and a laboratory incident as “extremely unlikely” [(4), p. 9]. Furthermore, the two theories were not given balanced consideration. Only 4 of the 313 pages of the report and its annexes addressed the possibility of a laboratory accident (4). Notably, WHO Director-General Tedros Ghebreyesus commented that the report's consideration of evidence supporting a laboratory accident was insufficient and offered to provide additional resources to fully evaluate the possibility (5).

    As scientists with relevant expertise, we agree with the WHO director-general (5), the United States and 13 other countries (6), and the European Union (7) that greater clarity about the origins of this pandemic is necessary and feasible to achieve. We must take hypotheses about both natural and laboratory spillovers seriously until we have sufficient data. A proper investigation should be transparent, objective, data-driven, inclusive of broad expertise, subject to independent oversight, and responsibly managed to minimize the impact of conflicts of interest. Public health agencies and research laboratories alike need to open their records to the public. Investigators should document the veracity and provenance of data from which analyses are conducted and conclusions drawn, so that analyses are reproducible by independent experts.

    Finally, in this time of unfortunate anti-Asian sentiment in some countries, we note that at the beginning of the pandemic, it was Chinese doctors, scientists, journalists, and citizens who shared with the world crucial information about the spread of the virus—often at great personal cost (8, 9). We should show the same determination in promoting a dispassionate science-based discourse on this difficult but important issue...

  • MattWMattW Posts: 9,371

    Massive climbdown from NHS and government over telephone-only GP appointments.

    Huge win for Telegraph to be honest, which appears to have sunk this policy within 48 hours.

    Every patient to have right to see a GP as NHS abandons ‘total triage’

    Climbdown comes after The Telegraph revealed patients were being discouraged from visits and told to have online or phone discussion first
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/13/every-patient-have-right-see-gp-nhs-abandons-total-triage/

    My local surgery is still locked up, impossible to get an appointment
    i think they can remain so during pandemic. the argument this week was about what nhs is telling gps to do in medium term after covid restrictions lifted this summer.
    My parents are having to fund minor treatment themselves, as an example my dad needed both ears syringed due to an infection and had to go private to get it done.
    I have heard a similar story from a mate.
    The difference is surgery's approaches to Covid is incredible, many have remained fully throughout the pandemic and have operated almost normally. Others have remained closed. It really is the luck of the draw as to where you live as to what service you will get from your surgery.
    Mine has been on full phone triage.

    I hope we get a system which has a good balance of both strategies, so as to (maybe) increase capacity.

    There's sense in telephone appointments for people at work, for example. Good for reducing time required, half day holidays to be taken etc.
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188
    Why are Labour so dire at by elections?

    As far as I can see, they have made precisely ONE gain in by elections (Corby 2012) since Tony Blair became PM.
This discussion has been closed.