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Just 7% would vote for The Queen to be our Head of State – politicalbetting.com

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  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210
    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    The way to avoid it being an issue is to make it absolutely clear that we would retaliate immediately and proportionately.

    Yes, with a small suggested change: we would retaliate immediately and irrationally. If you state that you will be proportionate, it allows them to do cost benefit analysis. If you insist your response will be immediate, but neither rational nor predictable, it makes them more cautious.
    The irrational retaliation that would shatter EU unity and avoid them voting for it is to start the process of withdrawing our battle group on the Russian border.

    Edit - Bonus points if they piss off Canada and the USA enough for coordinated action.
    Do you want to repatriate them via Paris?
    Perhaps they could liberate Aquitaine and Gascony on the way back.
    Shit, we left the EU on 31 December and may be at war with France before the end of March. No-one told me Brexit would be this much fun.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited March 2021
    https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1373728136970567688?s=

    Angle grinder, busy park, broad daylight.... London is turning into a right lawless shithole. Its low level crime like this that just makes every day life crap.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    In reality, what we would probably do is enlist - if we can - US support in putting pressure back on the EU. The USA makes a lot of money out of Big Pharma, with its global supply chains. The EU chucking a mental and blowing up those chains would not be popular with free trading Biden.

    Europe versus the Anglosphere....
    That would certainly be important. But we should not just rely on the Americans to do the heavy lifting. Ending our trading relationship with the EU would hurt but sometimes its worth it.

    Of course it would be much better if none of this happened but the EU leadership (and I use the word loosely) have really lost the place and I fear that our vaccination figures over this weekend are not going to have helped in that regard.
    Yes. I recall some PB-er predicting last week that, if the UK vax stats headed towards a daily million, the EU reaction would be outright batshittery. It might have been you.

    Seems prescient, at the moment.

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,598
    edited March 2021
    Foxy said:

    In jollier* news this is a great gif

    https://twitter.com/undertheraedar/status/1373714123704389632?s=19

    * though I am pretty chipper after the footy, and have opened a chap bottle of Californian red. Innocuous, but does the job.

    Over a year now since I last managed to climb one. :-(

    Have about 90 odd to go. Might be desperate enough to do a weekend trip from the Flatlands once lockdown is over.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Fishing said:


    Another public health question we need to answer is whether packing people into crowded commuter buses and trains and then ever more tightly-packed open plan offices is really sensible. Personally, I can't imagine a better environment to spread germs and reduce productivity.

    Very much in the forefront of my thoughts and others in my working world. The consensus is the genie of Working from Home is out of the bottle and won't be put back. Some organisations are trying to evolve from WFH to WFA (Working from Anywhere) - now, what "Anywhere" means is open to conjecture as you wouldn't want to be discussing commercially sensitive matters at our local Costa, Starbucks or library.

    The more practical notion of 1-2 days per week in the office for meetings and collaborative work leaving the home time for the "boring" stuff seems to be growing. I suppose I'm left with the thought that staff wanting to "commute" in 1-2 days might like the idea of overnight accommodation near to the office which would enable them to live further away.

    I wonder if the future is the re-imagining of some commercial space as short-term "apartments" for staff with the basic amenities to be used for a night or perhaps two while they are in the office. Employers could "rent" a number of these apartments in a larger building for their staff - it's analogous to the larger banks providing London-based staff accommodation but these wouldn't be properties owned outright.

    I'm thinking somewhere between Travelodge and property guardians - functional and basic - to allow the long-distance commuter the time to be at the office.

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    NZ Sauvignon Blanc tonight and probably half the price of an equivalent Sancerre. Very nice too.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,993
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see @Leon is having his weekly "hot war with the EU" masturbate-a-thon

    Well we all know Leon will enlist in this war.
    If the eu blocked pfizer doses from being exported I have to say I dont see how we can just be quiescent and accept it
    FWIW I reckon they will step back from the brink. But it is no longer impossible

    How do we react? The pressure on Boris to block the export of lipids from Croda will be intense. I guess, sensibly, he should resist, but will he be able? The media and public will be screaming for a retaliation in kind. With some reason

    And the chaos it will cause in global supply chains? Why should American pharma companies (the source of most expected new vaccines) regard the EU as a reliable actor, if they rip up Pfizer contracts and seize doses? It's Venezuela-type shit.
    It would be a remarkably stupid thing to do.
    Both morally bankrupt - deliberately sabotaging vaccine production - and self defeating, since some of that production should be for us. It wouldn’t improve our vaccine numbers, and would leave us open to the same international condemnation the EU action is likely to attract.

    Let them be the ones to reap the consequences.
    Boris and Co could easily reason that the EU would have to buckle within days if Pfizer production was to be stopped, whilst we’d be able to continue at a slower rate with domestic production of AZ and Indian imports, plus any other non-EU imports.

    Accordingly, they would be likelier to give it a try, and it might even succeed quickly enough that supply disruption to both ourselves and them would be minimal.

    Of course, they might also miscalculate.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    The way to avoid it being an issue is to make it absolutely clear that we would retaliate immediately and proportionately.

    Yes, with a small suggested change: we would retaliate immediately and irrationally. If you state that you will be proportionate, it allows them to do cost benefit analysis. If you insist your response will be immediate, but neither rational nor predictable, it makes them more cautious.
    The irrational retaliation that would shatter EU unity and avoid them voting for it is to start the process of withdrawing our battle group on the Russian border.

    Edit - Bonus points if they piss off Canada and the USA enough for coordinated action.
    Do you want to repatriate them via Paris?
    Perhaps they could liberate Aquitaine and Gascony on the way back.
    Shit, we left the EU on 31 December and may be at war with France before the end of March. No-one told me Brexit would be this much fun.
    Yep, rollercoasters are such fun.

    Seriously, I am of a view that saner heads will ultimately prevail, but that huge irreversible damage will have been done to UK-EU relations to the extent that our exit from the EU orbit of influence will be greatly hastened.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    NZ Sauvignon Blanc tonight and probably half the price of an equivalent Sancerre. Very nice too.
    I know I live in the US, not UK, but I've barely touched a Sancerre outside of a restaurant in nearly 20 years. Marlborough Sauvignon blancs are so good.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the sexual orientation question voluntary?

    Yes IIRC, but I saw no particular reason not to answer.
    I thought it was something to do with sex outside. Or is that orienteering?
    If you need a map...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1373728136970567688?s=

    Angle grinder, busy park, broad daylight.... London is turning into a right lawless shithole. Its low level crime like this that just makes every day life crap.

    At least they chased the thug away and gave him a slap
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    maaarsh said:

    alex_ said:

    maaarsh said:

    alex_ said:

    Floater said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    We should and we would have to
    It's not particularly clear what action we could take. For reasons stated action in relation to Pfizer ingredients would be completely counterproductive to our own interests.
    you're defining our interests in an incredibly short term and naive manner. If this happens, anyone who believes we'll get our continued fair share of Pfizer would be a fool, and in any case you can't simple allow yourself to be bullied without response even if responding carries a short term cost. The bullying would only get worse.
    I'm defining our interests in the loss of lives due to a reduction of 30m doses of Pfizer vaccine. I don't think that is in danger, whatever you suggest. Because, through all the bluster, the EU have been careful to state that their dispute is with AZ on a company contractual level (even if they are in the wrong).

    Extending the dispute across all vaccine manufacturers would help nobody.
    Frankly anyone talking in terms of loss of life at this point is being melodramatic - covid is at very low levels in the UK and the vulnerable are already vaccinated - a 2 month delay at this stage will have a completely negligible impact in the grand scheme of things and deaths will continue to run below the 5 year average between now and the end of vaccination, whether that's June or September.

    You may think the EU have been 'careful' but that's not what anyone else could see, and a policy aimed squarely at the UK like this should be met in kind and in full. The lipids we produce are the limiting factor in world supply and we could find a willing using in another Pfizer supply chain with a bilateral agreement to ensure that the bad actors in this situation are made to suffer for their conduct.
    If there's no question of loss of life, then that's even more reason to take the high ground. Eyes on the prize. If the EU take action that effectively reduce their attractiveness to (in this case) pharmaceutical manufacturers, then the answer is not to escalate a dispute between EU and AZ into a dispute between Britain and Pfizer.

    I don't think you considering the other options. For example, the assumption here is that the EU would be acting in such a way as to break and/or undermine existing contracts (between GB and AZ, and between AZ and EU - and in both cases involving different subsidiaries of AZ). Even with their reduced supply, AZ are a major part of the EU vaccination programme and will continue to be so. If EU are acting in breach of contract(s) then AZ have major leverage on their own. The EU acting to breach contracts would given AZ the power to walk away completely if they wished. At a minimum they could take them to court and extract significant damages. Especially if it turns out that the EU have been taking action based on clear misrepresentation of the contracts agreed.

    The UK can keep its powder dry, and let the EU consider to make a complete mess of the whole thing on their own.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1373728136970567688?s=

    Angle grinder, busy park, broad daylight.... London is turning into a right lawless shithole. Its low level crime like this that just makes every day life crap.

    At least they chased the thug away and gave him a slap
    Surprised they didn't get shanked.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    You sound like a Serbian commander preparing for World War 1. They are "reviewing the options" on Thursday. It's unlikely that they'll impose the ban - we're seeing a lot of grandstanding, on both sides of the Channel, and it will end up with token gestures. The more serious issue is that both sides have made post-Brexit relations unnecessarily hysterical - something that will affect every other part of the relationship.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    edited March 2021

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    You sound like a Serbian commander preparing for World War 1. They are "reviewing the options" on Thursday. It's unlikely that they'll impose the ban - we're seeing a lot of grandstanding, on both sides of the Channel, and it will end up with token gestures. The more serious issue is that both sides have made post-Brexit relations unnecessarily hysterical - something that will affect every other part of the relationship.
    A token gesture, like last time? Tell that to the Australians.

    And there hasn't been any grandstanding from HMG.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    Lordy, the sacrifices we have to make 😉
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    NZ Sauvignon Blanc tonight and probably half the price of an equivalent Sancerre. Very nice too.
    More comparable to Touraine than Sancerre IMO, but NZ does export the good stuff.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited March 2021

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    You sound like a Serbian commander preparing for World War 1. They are "reviewing the options" on Thursday. It's unlikely that they'll impose the ban - we're seeing a lot of grandstanding, on both sides of the Channel, and it will end up with token gestures. The more serious issue is that both sides have made post-Brexit relations unnecessarily hysterical - something that will affect every other part of the relationship.
    Not letting you get away with the blame on both side nonsense....in terms of vaccinations, it has been 100% EU. At every stage, the UK has risen above from when PPE was hoarded by France, to these continued threats of blockades, to constant rubbishing the UK vaccine.

    Also compare how our government reacted to India saying you can't have that new order. No outrage, just calm explanation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    What a truly ludicrous statement.

    That's like saying "I like buildings in north east Europe, I don't like buildings in Asia"
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Bristol - I have just watched a copper body smash a woman to the floor with his big shield.

    She was just slow getting out of the way
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see @Leon is having his weekly "hot war with the EU" masturbate-a-thon

    Well we all know Leon will enlist in this war.
    If the eu blocked pfizer doses from being exported I have to say I dont see how we can just be quiescent and accept it
    FWIW I reckon they will step back from the brink. But it is no longer impossible

    How do we react? The pressure on Boris to block the export of lipids from Croda will be intense. I guess, sensibly, he should resist, but will he be able? The media and public will be screaming for a retaliation in kind. With some reason

    And the chaos it will cause in global supply chains? Why should American pharma companies (the source of most expected new vaccines) regard the EU as a reliable actor, if they rip up Pfizer contracts and seize doses? It's Venezuela-type shit.
    It would be a remarkably stupid thing to do.
    Both morally bankrupt - deliberately sabotaging vaccine production - and self defeating, since some of that production should be for us. It wouldn’t improve our vaccine numbers, and would leave us open to the same international condemnation the EU action is likely to attract.

    Let them be the ones to reap the consequences.
    So how do we retaliate then, if the EU goes psycho? Because we will have to do *something*. The idea any UK government could just sit back and say, "Oh well, 2 more months of lockdown, 25,000 dead, bloody hell, we said the EU was terrible, never mind"

    They would be shredded. Farage would be UK Fuhrer within a fortnight.

    Moreover, as others say below, yielding to blatant EU bullying would be a terrible error, long term. If they get away with it once, they will do it again. Boris would be toast with his backbenchers.

    So, how do we retaliate, if not with The Lipids?*

    *If I'd been told, 18 months ago, that I'd be seriously using that sentence on PB....

    The "2 month figure" - which still wouldn't equate to 25,000 dead - was based on the EU placing an export ban on Pfizer. The current suggestion is that action is all related to AZ. So "responding with the lipids" would drag Pfizer into the EU-AZ dispute, and would actually add 2 months onto whatever impact any AZ action would have.

  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    Try Argentina (Malbecs), Chile (pinots) and South Africa (pinotage if you want an entirely new experience) for reds
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    Lordy, the sacrifices we have to make 😉
    Being free certainly helps! 🧐
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    stodge said:

    Fishing said:


    Another public health question we need to answer is whether packing people into crowded commuter buses and trains and then ever more tightly-packed open plan offices is really sensible. Personally, I can't imagine a better environment to spread germs and reduce productivity.

    Very much in the forefront of my thoughts and others in my working world. The consensus is the genie of Working from Home is out of the bottle and won't be put back. Some organisations are trying to evolve from WFH to WFA (Working from Anywhere) - now, what "Anywhere" means is open to conjecture as you wouldn't want to be discussing commercially sensitive matters at our local Costa, Starbucks or library.

    The more practical notion of 1-2 days per week in the office for meetings and collaborative work leaving the home time for the "boring" stuff seems to be growing. I suppose I'm left with the thought that staff wanting to "commute" in 1-2 days might like the idea of overnight accommodation near to the office which would enable them to live further away.

    I wonder if the future is the re-imagining of some commercial space as short-term "apartments" for staff with the basic amenities to be used for a night or perhaps two while they are in the office. Employers could "rent" a number of these apartments in a larger building for their staff - it's analogous to the larger banks providing London-based staff accommodation but these wouldn't be properties owned outright.

    I'm thinking somewhere between Travelodge and property guardians - functional and basic - to allow the long-distance commuter the time to be at the office.

    Thought we had done that - apart-hotels have been a thing for ages, and serviced accommodation has been a growth area of the PRS for a number of years.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    You sound like a Serbian commander preparing for World War 1. They are "reviewing the options" on Thursday. It's unlikely that they'll impose the ban - we're seeing a lot of grandstanding, on both sides of the Channel, and it will end up with token gestures. The more serious issue is that both sides have made post-Brexit relations unnecessarily hysterical - something that will affect every other part of the relationship.
    I think that we should make it very clear in a calm and measured way that there will be massive retaliation if they go down this road and they really should think better of it. We should of course do this behind closed doors and say as little as possible in public but they should be in no doubt there will be significant consequences.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see @Leon is having his weekly "hot war with the EU" masturbate-a-thon

    Well we all know Leon will enlist in this war.
    If the eu blocked pfizer doses from being exported I have to say I dont see how we can just be quiescent and accept it
    FWIW I reckon they will step back from the brink. But it is no longer impossible

    How do we react? The pressure on Boris to block the export of lipids from Croda will be intense. I guess, sensibly, he should resist, but will he be able? The media and public will be screaming for a retaliation in kind. With some reason

    And the chaos it will cause in global supply chains? Why should American pharma companies (the source of most expected new vaccines) regard the EU as a reliable actor, if they rip up Pfizer contracts and seize doses? It's Venezuela-type shit.
    It would be a remarkably stupid thing to do.
    Both morally bankrupt - deliberately sabotaging vaccine production - and self defeating, since some of that production should be for us. It wouldn’t improve our vaccine numbers, and would leave us open to the same international condemnation the EU action is likely to attract.

    Let them be the ones to reap the consequences.
    So how do we retaliate then, if the EU goes psycho? Because we will have to do *something*. The idea any UK government could just sit back and say, "Oh well, 2 more months of lockdown, 25,000 dead, bloody hell, we said the EU was terrible, never mind"

    They would be shredded. Farage would be UK Fuhrer within a fortnight.

    Moreover, as others say below, yielding to blatant EU bullying would be a terrible error, long term. If they get away with it once, they will do it again. Boris would be toast with his backbenchers.

    So, how do we retaliate, if not with The Lipids?*

    *If I'd been told, 18 months ago, that I'd be seriously using that sentence on PB....

    For a start, the delay would be three weeks at worst, not two months.
    And any retaliation regarding vaccine precursors would not improve that.

    The EU are contemplating illegal action in order to fractionally improve their vaccine supply while disproportionately affecting ours. The only way we can win is economically, by taking their future business. Descending to their level would make that mush harder.

    One if the things which has distinguished us from other countries is that we have a reputation for standing by our legal commitments. We should state very clearly that this will continue to be the case, despite the indefensible actions of others.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270
    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Fishing said:


    Another public health question we need to answer is whether packing people into crowded commuter buses and trains and then ever more tightly-packed open plan offices is really sensible. Personally, I can't imagine a better environment to spread germs and reduce productivity.

    Very much in the forefront of my thoughts and others in my working world. The consensus is the genie of Working from Home is out of the bottle and won't be put back. Some organisations are trying to evolve from WFH to WFA (Working from Anywhere) - now, what "Anywhere" means is open to conjecture as you wouldn't want to be discussing commercially sensitive matters at our local Costa, Starbucks or library.

    The more practical notion of 1-2 days per week in the office for meetings and collaborative work leaving the home time for the "boring" stuff seems to be growing. I suppose I'm left with the thought that staff wanting to "commute" in 1-2 days might like the idea of overnight accommodation near to the office which would enable them to live further away.

    I wonder if the future is the re-imagining of some commercial space as short-term "apartments" for staff with the basic amenities to be used for a night or perhaps two while they are in the office. Employers could "rent" a number of these apartments in a larger building for their staff - it's analogous to the larger banks providing London-based staff accommodation but these wouldn't be properties owned outright.

    I'm thinking somewhere between Travelodge and property guardians - functional and basic - to allow the long-distance commuter the time to be at the office.

    Thought we had done that - apart-hotels have been a thing for ages, and serviced accommodation has been a growth area of the PRS for a number of years.
    Yep I have spent many a week staying in apart-hotels in Aberdeen. I much prefer them to hotels.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    edited March 2021
    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    Try Argentina (Malbecs), Chile (pinots) and South Africa (pinotage if you want an entirely new experience) for reds
    Pinotage is garbage. I have never had a decent one. Argentinian Malbec is not up to much either, though Chile does make some drinkable stuff.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    You sound like a Serbian commander preparing for World War 1. They are "reviewing the options" on Thursday. It's unlikely that they'll impose the ban - we're seeing a lot of grandstanding, on both sides of the Channel, and it will end up with token gestures. The more serious issue is that both sides have made post-Brexit relations unnecessarily hysterical - something that will affect every other part of the relationship.
    Not letting you get away with the blame on both side nonsense....in terms of vaccinations, it has been 100% EU. At every stage, the UK has risen above from when PPE was hoarded by France, to these continued threats of blockades, to rubbishing the UK vaccine.

    Also compare how our government reacted to India saying you can't have that new order. No outrage, just calm explanation.
    Yes, that's bollocks from NPXMP. It is the EU and the member states that have imperiously fucked up everything about vaccines almost from day 1. eg France


    https://twitter.com/spectator/status/1373411108648812550?s=20

    I know it must be hard for a lefty to accept that HMG has performed well, and occupied the moral high ground, and appears a model of sanity compared to our European friends, but in this rare case it is true
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    stodge said:

    Fishing said:


    Another public health question we need to answer is whether packing people into crowded commuter buses and trains and then ever more tightly-packed open plan offices is really sensible. Personally, I can't imagine a better environment to spread germs and reduce productivity.

    Very much in the forefront of my thoughts and others in my working world. The consensus is the genie of Working from Home is out of the bottle and won't be put back. Some organisations are trying to evolve from WFH to WFA (Working from Anywhere) - now, what "Anywhere" means is open to conjecture as you wouldn't want to be discussing commercially sensitive matters at our local Costa, Starbucks or library.

    The more practical notion of 1-2 days per week in the office for meetings and collaborative work leaving the home time for the "boring" stuff seems to be growing. I suppose I'm left with the thought that staff wanting to "commute" in 1-2 days might like the idea of overnight accommodation near to the office which would enable them to live further away.

    I wonder if the future is the re-imagining of some commercial space as short-term "apartments" for staff with the basic amenities to be used for a night or perhaps two while they are in the office. Employers could "rent" a number of these apartments in a larger building for their staff - it's analogous to the larger banks providing London-based staff accommodation but these wouldn't be properties owned outright.

    I'm thinking somewhere between Travelodge and property guardians - functional and basic - to allow the long-distance commuter the time to be at the office.

    Your thoughts aline with mine in this area. My plan until at least September-November is to live relatively far away from London, WFH 3 days of the week and just commute in and AirBnB overnight for the night between the two office days. Cost-wise it;'s not much more expensive, and will save me 4 hours of commuting.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    isam said:

    Man, I really have enjoyed writing both these weekend threads.

    Aren't the 7% cited in the thread header misreading the question asked of them? It is to choose someone to replace the Queen as Head of State isn't it?
    No it is asking them to imagine if the Queen was replaced by an elected head of state who would they want to be that elected head of state.

    The Queen is unelected.

    Perhaps we should bring back Prince-electors but instead of for the HRE but for our monarchy?

    @ydoethur were there ever any Princess-electors?
    Leave well alone. At this moment the succession is secure and as a whole popular. Historically we have managed to deal with strange situations as they arise - the odd case of the disputed succession leading to 1066 and all that, Richard II succession/deposition, Henry VII conquest, the succession to Elizabeth I, Charles I and his row with the gentry, James II and his religious predilections. The post James settlement of 1688-1690 has stood up well to the test of time. Parliament controls the process, and the voters control parliament. The abolition of male primogeniture is recent and uncontroversial. Let sleeping dogs lie.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    You sound like a Serbian commander preparing for World War 1. They are "reviewing the options" on Thursday. It's unlikely that they'll impose the ban - we're seeing a lot of grandstanding, on both sides of the Channel, and it will end up with token gestures. The more serious issue is that both sides have made post-Brexit relations unnecessarily hysterical - something that will affect every other part of the relationship.
    Sorry Nick but that ignores the fact the EU already tried to do this last month and only back down when they screwed up over the NI protocol and risked upsetting the Americans. They have a record on this both with regard to the UK and other countries - such as Australia. It is certainly not by any means unlikely they will take this action.

    bear in mind I was one of those saying they would never do it last time around before all the NI protocol blow-up. My view had radically changed now.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456
    Foxy said:

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    Try Argentina (Malbecs), Chile (pinots) and South Africa (pinotage if you want an entirely new experience) for reds
    Pinotage is garbage. I have never had a decent one. Argentinian Malbec is not up to much either, though Chile does make some drinkable stuff.
    Pinotage is marmite, people love it or hate it. For Argentinian malbecs, I'd have to disagree. Sure there is a lot of mediocre struff out there, but the good ones are really good.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Foxy said:

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    Try Argentina (Malbecs), Chile (pinots) and South Africa (pinotage if you want an entirely new experience) for reds
    Pinotage is garbage. I have never had a decent one. Argentinian Malbec is not up to much either, though Chile does make some drinkable stuff.
    lol. Have you been?

    I have. I have toured the Chilean winelands and travelled extensively in Argentina.

    Some of the Argie malbecs are now sublime. Just glorious. You can't really compare them with Old World reds, they are different, but much better value - especially if you want richness and sonority. Go for the higher altitude wines. You will be amazed.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiebell/2020/05/14/why-argentina-is-among-the-best-for-high-value-world-class-wines/?sh=1b367a8b5f30



    Chile also makes amazing wine. As does South Africa...

    On one thing you have a point. Pinotage is weird. Burnt rubber.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    lol

    Anyway, what has the US got to do with it? It's Pfizer who'd be asked.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited March 2021
    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    Time for moderator

    Those comments are unacceptable
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    Come on man...
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662

    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    Time for moderator

    Those comments are unacceptable
    Let him make a fool of himself.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,638
    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    Time for your nap, I think... :lol:
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    RobD said:

    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    lol

    Anyway, what has the US got to do with it? It's Pfizer who'd be asked.
    I thought Biden had banned Pfizer exporting any jabs?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    Looks like somebody has spent the afternoon sampling all the wines of South America.....
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800


    Not letting you get away with the blame on both side nonsense....in terms of vaccinations, it has been 100% EU. At every stage, the UK has risen above from when PPE was hoarded by France, to these continued threats of blockades, to constant rubbishing the UK vaccine.

    Also compare how our government reacted to India saying you can't have that new order. No outrage, just calm explanation.

    That's exactly how we should continue to comport ourselves - if all around you are going mad, that only proves the notion insanity is popular, not that it's the correct approach.

    For all the vitriol thrown at the Government in recent times, we've done this pretty well in the last few months - that's not to excuse or forget the earlier errors for which proper account is still required but it would be remiss of this normal critic of the Government not to recognise in terms of vaccine provision and logistical rollout we've done extraordinarily well and continue to move more quickly beyond the immediate crisis of coronavirus than almost any other nation.

    That being said, we need to continue to keep our standards high - I voted to leave the EU out of sorrow not anger. I want a prosperous Europe - it would be absurd not to. My concern, for all my earlier praise, is that this Government and this Prime Minister has never encountered a majority it doesn't want to jump on but sometimes in governance majorities aren't right and the clamour of majorities needs to be resisted.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    You sound like a Serbian commander preparing for World War 1. They are "reviewing the options" on Thursday. It's unlikely that they'll impose the ban - we're seeing a lot of grandstanding, on both sides of the Channel, and it will end up with token gestures. The more serious issue is that both sides have made post-Brexit relations unnecessarily hysterical - something that will affect every other part of the relationship.
    Sorry Nick but that ignores the fact the EU already tried to do this last month and only back down when they screwed up over the NI protocol and risked upsetting the Americans. They have a record on this both with regard to the UK and other countries - such as Australia. It is certainly not by any means unlikely they will take this action.

    bear in mind I was one of those saying they would never do it last time around before all the NI protocol blow-up. My view had radically changed now.
    Nick, I'm glad you're optimistic - but the Serbian analogy isn't exactly comforting! That escalation looked unlikely too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    Try Argentina (Malbecs), Chile (pinots) and South Africa (pinotage if you want an entirely new experience) for reds
    Pinotage is garbage. I have never had a decent one. Argentinian Malbec is not up to much either, though Chile does make some drinkable stuff.
    Pinotage is marmite, people love it or hate it. For Argentinian malbecs, I'd have to disagree. Sure there is a lot of mediocre struff out there, but the good ones are really good.
    The good ones are world class. No question. Anyone who argues otherwise is talking from ignorance. This is why wine makers from France, Italy, the USA (etc) have been investing heavily in Argie wine

    Argentina probably makes the best value fine red wine in the world, right now.

    In Argentina itself you can walk into a wine shop in a small town and get what drinks like a £50 wine for under a tenner. It's a very odd feeling. Sadly the food (steaks apart) does not match the vino.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270
    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    Oh dear. Someone has been on the sauce tonight.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    RobD said:

    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    lol

    Anyway, what has the US got to do with it? It's Pfizer who'd be asked.
    I thought Biden had banned Pfizer exporting any jabs?
    Good point. Can't see it being a controversial decision, if the UK provides the ingredient that is the bottleneck.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    RobD said:

    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    lol

    Anyway, what has the US got to do with it? It's Pfizer who'd be asked.
    If it is being manufactured in the US, any Pfizer vaccine production would be subject to the US export controls.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    Who is "zerohedge"?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    edited March 2021

    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    Oh dear. Someone has been on the sauce tonight.
    I always enjoy people having extreme tantrums - swearing, accusing others of being idiots and in general behaving in a very rude fashion - whilst seeming to totally believe there is no possibility that in having that tantrum that the argument they are trying to make about others being unreasonable may be less than persuasive.

    Kudos for telling people to grow up at the same time as that tantrum, fabulously lacking in self awareness when trying to present (and seeming to believe) oneself the lone voice of reason and sanity.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    Mate don't doubt, its in all capitals so it must be correct.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    If true, EU happy to kill grannies not only in the EU, but here in the UK.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    A libertarian website with hints of alt-rightery and QAnon.

    HOWEVER they do get scoops that others don't and they use some interesting writers/pundits.

    So don't dismiss this automatically but caveat emptor as well
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    It is a financial blog site that specialises in forecasting the end of the world as we know it and still lives on the fact that in 2008 they were once right.

    I'd like to say the fact that they said this makes it less likely but in reality the odds haven't changed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    Time for your nap, I think... :lol:
    Someone has seized Malcolm's cask strength turnip juice supply?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    If true, EU happy to kill grannies not only in the EU, but here in the UK.
    Huge, if big.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,894
    Need some Gene Hunt policing on this lot
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,598

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    Originally a Bulgarian investment banker. Blog may (or may not) be Russian influenced...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Leon said:

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    A libertarian website with hints of alt-rightery and QAnon.

    HOWEVER they do get scoops that others don't and they use some interesting writers/pundits.

    So don't dismiss this automatically but caveat emptor as well
    Not just Zerohedge:

    https://twitter.com/shanechowen/status/1373739505300164608?s=20
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    DavidL said:

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    It is a financial blog site that specialises in forecasting the end of the world as we know it and still lives on the fact that in 2008 they were once right.

    I'd like to say the fact that they said this makes it less likely but in reality the odds haven't changed.
    They have nailed some stories others haven't..... but they are also known for massive clickbaiting....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    Right wing libertarian financial blog.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    Zerohedge has predicted all 97 of the last three recessions.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Need some Gene Hunt policing on this lot
    Why aren’t the mounted police charging already?

    I know it’s a different police force, but they go in heavy on a peaceful protest following specific and sensitive circumstances the other weekend; and this weekend they sit and watch this happen? What the hell has happened to their leadership?!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    Try Argentina (Malbecs), Chile (pinots) and South Africa (pinotage if you want an entirely new experience) for reds
    Pinotage is garbage. I have never had a decent one. Argentinian Malbec is not up to much either, though Chile does make some drinkable stuff.
    Pinotage is marmite, people love it or hate it. For Argentinian malbecs, I'd have to disagree. Sure there is a lot of mediocre struff out there, but the good ones are really good.
    The good ones are world class. No question. Anyone who argues otherwise is talking from ignorance. This is why wine makers from France, Italy, the USA (etc) have been investing heavily in Argie wine

    Argentina probably makes the best value fine red wine in the world, right now.

    In Argentina itself you can walk into a wine shop in a small town and get what drinks like a £50 wine for under a tenner. It's a very odd feeling. Sadly the food (steaks apart) does not match the vino.
    When I am buying, I definitely favour Europe for reds, though NZ does good Pinot Noir, and New Zealand and Oz for whites. I have s soft spot for Australian Reisling, but cannot understand why anyone drinks Australian Shiraz. Ghastly stuff.

    In South Africa, I stick to the beer, though better still is Windhoek from Namibia, and Malawi Gin, which is very good indeed.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    DavidL sides with the Loons

    Always thought he was a sensible human being
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    algarkirk said:

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    Zerohedge has predicted all 97 of the last three recessions.
    That's not true.

    They predicted at least 12,432 of the last three recessions.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    The EU are doing their absolute best to crush any remaining remainer-ism in the UK. Good job guys.
  • It would be an act of incredible stupidity, even hostile
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    The big supporters of the EU always like to say how it has prevented wars between countries who have in the past been known to have a conflict or two....it seems like their unelected officials are doing their best to start a new one.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Leon said:

    Who is "zerohedge"?

    A libertarian website with hints of alt-rightery and QAnon.

    HOWEVER they do get scoops that others don't and they use some interesting writers/pundits.

    So don't dismiss this automatically but caveat emptor as well
    Not just Zerohedge:

    https://twitter.com/shanechowen/status/1373739505300164608?s=20
    Strong with the copy-and-pasta, are his sources....
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    The EU are doing their absolute best to crush any remaining remainer-ism in the UK. Good job guys.

    It’s more serious than that. This is the sort of stuff that really could break up the western alliance. Trump was never this dangerous in that regard, and that’s saying something.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited March 2021

    The EU are doing their absolute best to crush any remaining remainer-ism in the UK. Good job guys.

    Scott n Paste will still be on board...and Mr Stop Brexit will blame the Russians.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    edited March 2021
    OK this looks increasingly believable, and I am more minded to believe it, but we need more proof

    I am still thinking about what that EU expert at the IISS said. The EU has no good choices. It is under intense pressure from voters (domestically, see Merkel in Germany), it is entering a 3rd wave, thousands are dying, at the same time it is "exporting vaccines" even as its own poor vaccine drive falters. Meanwhile it can now see from the UK and Israel that bigtime vaccination WORKS, this is especially galling when it is Brexit Britain doing it, a country which consciously opted out of EU vax procurement

    What are its choices?

    1. Slap a vaccine export ban on the UK (very risky, damaging long term, but probably popular short term)
    2. Buy Sputnik or Chinese jabs? Yes, but this will take too much time
    3. Accept the disaster and do nothing. Keep exporting. Hugely angering for voters

    So I can see why they go for 1. This is a massive moral failure and probably a strategic calamity, but it buys time with the European people

    And, also, the EU has proven it makes consistently the wrong choice on vaccines, every time
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    The EU are doing their absolute best to crush any remaining remainer-ism in the UK. Good job guys.

    They don't want us back. That will be the biggest problem for rejoiners.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,894
    edited March 2021
    We should respond by blocking in kind. We have sufficient doses for our over 50s that want it (And the first dose is by far the most important), it's annoying I'll have to wait but they'll suffer more than we will with retaliatory measures.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cicero said:

    Ye Gods the Loons are truly out in force tonight. You clowns have only been out of the EU for a few weeks and you are now clamoring for military intervention. What are you going to be like in six months time when the UK is facing the first wave of Brexit bankruptcies with 15% unemployment and rising?

    How would you react to British troops being withdrawn from the Baltics?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    Foxy said:

    The EU are doing their absolute best to crush any remaining remainer-ism in the UK. Good job guys.

    They don't want us back. That will be the biggest problem for rejoiners.
    Clearly not. 🤷‍♂️
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    DavidL sides with the Loons

    Always thought he was a sensible human being
    Well thanks, I think.

    I don't want this. Its crazy and self defeating and will cause unnecessary death on both sides of the channel. But we cannot fail to respond to such an insanely hostile act.
    I hope our diplomats are busy tonight, and the phones in Number 10 red hot, pointing out the reality of this. This needs calming words from the EU the instant a spokesperson gets in front of a microphone tomorrow morning.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    Might fuck us at least as much! As we are so dependent on imports.
    We just have to substitute from elsewhere. Get used to your Californian red.

    Nah, it was a gift. I like my reds from Beaujolais or the Rhone, and North Italy. I am not a fan of New World reds, though New Zealand does a few good uns.

    Try Argentina (Malbecs), Chile (pinots) and South Africa (pinotage if you want an entirely new experience) for reds
    Pinotage is garbage. I have never had a decent one. Argentinian Malbec is not up to much either, though Chile does make some drinkable stuff.
    Pinotage is marmite, people love it or hate it. For Argentinian malbecs, I'd have to disagree. Sure there is a lot of mediocre struff out there, but the good ones are really good.
    The good ones are world class. No question. Anyone who argues otherwise is talking from ignorance. This is why wine makers from France, Italy, the USA (etc) have been investing heavily in Argie wine

    Argentina probably makes the best value fine red wine in the world, right now.

    In Argentina itself you can walk into a wine shop in a small town and get what drinks like a £50 wine for under a tenner. It's a very odd feeling. Sadly the food (steaks apart) does not match the vino.
    When I am buying, I definitely favour Europe for reds, though NZ does good Pinot Noir, and New Zealand and Oz for whites. I have s soft spot for Australian Reisling, but cannot understand why anyone drinks Australian Shiraz. Ghastly stuff....
    Quite simply, palates differ.

    The most obvious example is that of coriander, which is a tasty herb to some, and like a mouthful of soap to others (including me).
    And many people simply can’t distinguish between what oenophiles call great wines, and cheap plonk. It’s not a matter of an educated palate; just genetics.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    I still don't think this makes a huge difference. It's all for show because the UK supply chain for AZ is almost all domestic, I'm not sure any of it relies on EU imports.

    It's also interesting to note that Pfizer hasn't been blocked which is really what could hurt us.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    Pulpstar said:

    We should respond by blocking in kind. We have sufficient doses for our over 50s that want it (And the first dose is by far the most important), it's annoying I'll have to wait but they'll suffer more than we will with retaliatory measures.

    The problem with an escalating trade war, in the vein as described by @DavidL especially, is that we'll suffer more ourselves. There's a reason why we're not inspecting goods through Dover yet...

    I'm not saying we shouldn't respond but we shouldn't shoot ourselves in the foot to make a point.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    DavidL sides with the Loons

    Always thought he was a sensible human being
    Well thanks, I think.

    I don't want this. Its crazy and self defeating and will cause unnecessary death on both sides of the channel. But we cannot fail to respond to such an insanely hostile act.
    I hope our diplomats are busy tonight, and the phones in Number 10 red hot, pointing out the reality of this. This needs calming words from the EU the instant a spokesperson gets in front of a microphone tomorrow morning.
    Time to recognise the EU 'ambassador' so he can immediately be expelled?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    It would be an act of incredible stupidity, even hostile
    There are two things going on.

    1 Kite flying
    2 They can see no possibility other than they are right.

    Hopefully the kite will return a message that makes them see sense. As they know they are right the message may be ignored.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,171

    The EU are doing their absolute best to crush any remaining remainer-ism in the UK. Good job guys.

    I like to think that if we'd voted to Remain the UK would be persuading the EU to make the right decisions with regard to vaccines.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    RobD said:

    Cicero said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    This is just one of the reasons why I won't believe that we're actually moving further out of this mess until it happens.

    HOWEVER - based both on media reports and on what appears to be quite a lot of informed opinion on PB, I'm not too worried yet. Export bans can, apparently, only be agreed by individual member states and not imposed by the Commission or Council of Ministers. Germany and France might be both reckless and desperate enough to push the button; the likes of Ireland, the Netherlands and (crucially) Belgium are reportedly much more reluctant. They know that if they screw up the pharma companies' ability to fulfil their contracts then said companies may no longer view the EU as a safe place to invest and build capacity. Those states therefore have a big incentive not to do anything silly.

    That said, if it does go that far and the member states all fall into line, then the one thing that the UK Government must not do is force companies based here to break their contractual obligations as well, by cutting off the supply of crucial products to EU production plants. That wouldn't get us what we want and would only surrender the moral and legal high ground, whilst reducing production of vaccines for everyone else.

    There are alternative responses available. The most obvious is to close the UK mission to the EU in Brussels and expel their team from London. The UK could consider withdrawing the troops currently stationed in Estonia as part of a NATO mission (in crude terms, we're not dying for you lot if you set out to kill us.) It's also possible that a quick word with the Americans and with Pfizer could see UK production of vaccine precursors diverted from the Belgian to American plants, so that UK firms' contracts with Pfizer could be upheld and UK orders fulfilled from US plants.

    But we're still a long way from having to rely solely on our own (limited) production resources just yet, so let's just wait and see.
    I would be very surprised if they haven’t already made plans to divert the precursors to Pfizer’s US plants in return for Pfizer delivering from there to the UK
    Are you some kind of Russian trolls? This is total bollocks. This site seems to have been invaded by f%ckwits with the IQ of furniture. Go away the lot of you. You are out of your tiny minds. You are even more deranged if you think the Yanks would support any of this. Grow the f%ck up or f%ck the f%ck off.
    lol

    Anyway, what has the US got to do with it? It's Pfizer who'd be asked.
    US has had an export ban in place for some time, and Biden has lifted it only slightly.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    DavidL sides with the Loons

    Always thought he was a sensible human being
    Well thanks, I think.

    I don't want this. Its crazy and self defeating and will cause unnecessary death on both sides of the channel. But we cannot fail to respond to such an insanely hostile act.
    I'm not quite sure why you are proposing a series of retaliatory actions which would massively harm the UK? How do we help a shortfall of AZ vaccines, by abolishing our supply of Pfizer vaccines. And if we targeted Pfizer then we would be adding a UK-Pfizer dispute to the existing EU-AZ one. When the EU taking this sort of action will massively harm them in the long term as a place to do business.

    Remember large chunks of our population are already vaccinated. Currently the health risk of a reduction in global vaccine supply is all on their side.

    Keep it a dispute between the EU and massive global companies and let them reap the negative consequences in the future.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,598
    philiph said:

    It would be an act of incredible stupidity, even hostile
    There are two things going on.

    1 Kite flying
    2 They can see no possibility other than they are right.

    Hopefully the kite will return a message that makes them see sense. As they know they are right the message may be ignored.
    3 Russian trolling?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Floater said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Britain’s Covid vaccine programme faces a two-month delay in the event of an EU export ban, derailing the government’s plans to reopen the economy this summer, an analysis for the Guardian reveals.

    A ban, due to be debated by leaders of the 27 EU member states on Thursday, would badly stall the UK vaccination effort, and would be likely to force the government to extend restrictions on people’s lives.

    It would not, however, provide a significant boost to EU member states’ troubled programmes, according to a report by the data analytics company Airfinity.

    The comparatively small number of doses that would be kept within the bloc would speed up the full vaccination of every adult in the EU by “just over a week”, the research suggests.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/21/eu-export-ban-would-delay-uk-covid-vaccine-drive-by-two-months

    They would further fuck up our economy, and condemn lots of Britons to disease and death, because THEY screwed up their procurement? It would be the act of an outright enemy. Beyond anything China might do, or indeed Russia.

    It is a nuclear option. How could we not retaliate? Madness
    We would retaliate, because we'd have no choice. It would be close to an act of war.

    The EU has to know this. And therefore, one has to think that an actual export ban is probably off the table.

    More likely, they are playing a game of brinskmanship with the UK: Yeah, we're mad enough to fuck ourselves and you over, so let's see some concessions so we won't be forced to do something awful to both of us.

    Which is, of course, the same strategy that it was advocated that the UK used during the Brexit negotiations.
    I don't think we would or should retaliate.
    I completely disagree. The question is not whether we retaliate but whether we can keep the retaliation within some sensible bounds. Not responding is not an option.
    The obvious option: Naval blockades of cargo ships bound for EU ports at Jutland, Gibraltar and the Channel. :D
    All exports relevant to the production of vaccines ceased immediately. Call in favours to make sure others do the same. Withdrawal from the crappy trade deal with immediate effect. Punitive tariffs on all EU imports. Take days to examine each and every lorry or cargo container coming from the continent.

    Fuck em.
    DavidL sides with the Loons

    Always thought he was a sensible human being
    The loons appear to be on the other side of the channel
    They are; we should not emulate them.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    Pulpstar said:

    We should respond by blocking in kind. We have sufficient doses for our over 50s that want it (And the first dose is by far the most important), it's annoying I'll have to wait but they'll suffer more than we will with retaliatory measures.

    The problem with an escalating trade war, in the vein as described by @DavidL especially, is that we'll suffer more ourselves. There's a reason why we're not inspecting goods through Dover yet...

    I'm not saying we shouldn't respond but we shouldn't shoot ourselves in the foot to make a point.
    The first sign that it’s really, really serious and not for show will be if State feels the need for Biden to opine.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,894
    I thought we might return at some point, but rejoin is dead for at least a hundred years with this stuff.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,171
    I remember ordering a bowl of tomato soup in the posh bit of Bristol a few years ago and it costing about £10, even more than it would have done in London.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited March 2021
    Leon said:

    OK this looks increasingly believable, and I am more minded to believe it, but we need more proof

    I am still thinking about what that EU expert at the IISS said. The EU has no good choices. It is under intense pressure from voters (domestically, see Merkel in Germany), it is entering a 3rd wave, thousands are dying, at the same time it is "exporting vaccines" even as its own poor vaccine drive falters. Meanwhile it can now see from the UK and Israel that bigtime vaccination WORKS, this is especially galling when it is Brexit Britain doing it, a country which consciously opted out of EU vax procurement

    What are its choices?

    1. Slap a vaccine export ban on the UK (very risky, damaging long term, but probably popular short term)
    2. Buy Sputnik or Chinese jabs? Yes, but this will take too much time
    3. Accept the disaster and do nothing. Keep exporting. Hugely angering for voters

    So I can see why they go for 1. This is a massive moral failure and probably a strategic calamity, but it buys time with the European people

    And, also, the EU has proven it makes consistently the wrong choice on vaccines, every time
    Option 4: Talk to COVAX, like Canada.

    But they won't - because an EU dogma is that it is God's gift to the world.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited March 2021
    MaxPB said:

    I still don't think this makes a huge difference. It's all for show because the UK supply chain for AZ is almost all domestic, I'm not sure any of it relies on EU imports.

    It's also interesting to note that Pfizer hasn't been blocked which is really what could hurt us.

    You seem very sure of this - there seems to be conflicting reports about the ingredients for AZ vaccines. I understand the vaccines themselves aren't being imported, but what about the ingredients?

    Put it another way - if it really does have no impact then the EU will look even more ridiculous.

    Imagine they announce a ban on AZ exports to the EU, but AZ makes a public statement saying it will have zero impact on their UK distribution. But in the meantime they will take the EU to court and consider whether they want to continue with their current contract given the EU breach.
This discussion has been closed.