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Ladbrokes make the Tories odds on favourites to take Hartlepool in the first Westminster by-election

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Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428

    Cicero said:

    It is not reported in the UK that there is a view that the UK is being pretty reckless about the second jab. Here in Tallinn we are 15% vaccinated and accelerating BUT 40% of those are getting their second jab within the manufacturers recommended time. In the UK the percentage with a second jab is still only about 6%.

    This is an utterly disingenuous use of statistics. The reason the percentage with a second jab is relatively low is that we've give so many jabs in total. The UK's vaccine strategy is anything but reckless.
    The AZ specifically indicated for a 12 week delay too, for best use. The Pfizer delay is not what the manufacturer recommends but the rationale behind it is sound, and supported by most experts. I hope it is the right call, but have worries at all about the correct use of the AZ vaccine.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    I guess his internal polling was a load of shite.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1371899002506129413

    They should have run a viable candidate like winston McKenzie
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    WHAT are the odds, that Boris will swing the Harlepool by-election, by getting the Queen to pardon the monkey?

    Why would pardoning the monkey be popular? Filthy foreign spy.

  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    ydoethur said:

    Pidcock is liked by the Labour left for a simple reason: her worldview reflects their worldview. It’s like asking why do Essex Tories like Priti Patel (apparently she’s quite popular there).

    I must be the only person on here who doesn’t really rate Ed Balls. I’ve never really been his biggest fan, tbf. David Miliband wouldn’t be an improvement for Labour either: Labour would have the same issues they do with Starmer at the moment, plus with Miliband’s baggage as having been in the last Labour government.

    He’s grown on me since leaving government. But I still don’t rate him. It’s just I now think he isn’t a brilliant politician instead of thinking he’s a nasty piece of work as well as not a brilliant politician.
    Yes, I remember how much he was disliked back in 2015. Makes reading all the positive takes on him now even more weirder in light of that!
    I dislike him too and am glad he's gone.

    But he was a serious threat. A nasty piece of work and not good for the country, but a proper threat. Good riddance.
    I don’t think he would have done anything extreme policy wise, but where I think he was dangerous is that brought that toxic Blair/Brown political infighting back to Labour. There was already a sense at the time that was undermining Ed M, and if they had won in 2015 it likely would have gotten worse.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,692
    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    edited March 2021
    On Mike Hill, his final hearing in the sexual harassment case is on May 10-19th, which may become an Election overshadowing issue.

    https://www.farorelaw.co.uk/insights/ms-a-v-mike-hill-mp

    I wonder if Lab are planning to run a prominent campaign around sexual crime / VAWG.

    This is the aggressive Labour Tweet, which I make the second after the one "more than 50%" one.

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    @stodge I remember you were wondering about the local vaccination rates in Newham, from what I can tell the rejection rate seems to be about 23-25% in all age groups so far, well above the national average. I think considering the ethnic make up of the borough it's not a huge surprise though.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    I guess his internal polling was a load of shite.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1371899002506129413

    Eh, might as spend what they were planning anyway and hope the Assembly losses aren't too bad. Not sure saving a bit of dosh will be that significant.
    There's a heck of a lot of elections on that day, now potentially including a winnable Parliamentary by-election too.

    Why put the money and effort into a Mayoral race that has already been conceded* realistically, when those resources could be directed at races that are competitive?

    * and if it hadn't been, he wouldn't have been the candidate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Actually thinking about it weren't the Lib Dems the favourites at one point for the Hartlepool by election in 2004?

    A comment which would only get a "like" on politicalbetting.com

    Long may she reign
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    kle4 said:

    I guess a lot of PBers won't be buying phones from Utah.

    https://twitter.com/AP/status/1371916704645849089

    Cox bans porn?

    Thank goodness there is not a state, or a union of states, nearby which also sell tablets and phones.

    And thank goodness that blocking access to something deals with the desire to access it.
    Is this something that's even technologically possible?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Yes Minister on BBC4, followed by Reggie Perrin!

    I didn't get where I am today by watching repeats on BBC!
    Super.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    Yes Minister on BBC4, followed by Reggie Perrin!

    I didn't get where I am today by watching repeats on BBC!
    You must not watch much bbc then
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,031
    Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited March 2021

    DavidL said:

    Today's reported death tolls in Italy (502) and France (408) are indeed utterly depressing, as I'm sure we all agree.

    But people do seem to forget that here in the UK our death toll averaged over 1,000 daily for three weeks in January (8-29), and was over 500 every day between December 17th and February 13th. We have short memories. I find it hard to be triumphalist. Despite our great vaccine success, it doesn't look like our final death toll or rate will be out of line with the rest of Europe; it may be a bit lower than some (Belgium, Italy) but higher than others (Germany, Scandinavia). But I may be wrong.

    No I think you have it pretty much spot on. The difference, however, is that our excess deaths were caused by the Kent variant over the period you identify. The European excess deaths in April, May, June, July are going to be caused by quite unbelievable stupidity. It really didn't have to be that way.
    I don't disagree. But we have had our own moments of stupidity: not taking decisive action when cases rose rapidly in autumn; not shutting everything down as soon as the greater infectivity of the Kent variant became apparent; mixed messages at Xmas; reckless with regard to international travel.

    I'm just finding the gung ho tone of recent threads depressing and one-sided (as well as repetitive: how often do some posters have to repeat that Europe is terrible?). It's as if the UK has handled Covid brilliantly, and the evil Europeans have been terrible. The data doesn't show that. Our Europe-beating performance only applies to the vaccines. We've made as many errors as other countries around the world in other respects.
    The part that must be most 'depressing' for some people is the political angle, namely how thoroughly the Opposition's year-long parade of repetitive, dire mantras about both Brexit and Covid have been dispelled over the last few months. Far from being dealt a fatal blow in the public's esteem as their opponents glibly anticipated, the government's ratings have risen substantially as national optimism grows over the vaccine and unlocking programme, ably assisted by the petty spite and incompetence of our nearest neighbours. How many times can Boris turn certain political defeat into victory? Who knows, but he's done it again...
  • kle4 said:

    I guess his internal polling was a load of shite.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1371899002506129413

    Eh, might as spend what they were planning anyway and hope the Assembly losses aren't too bad. Not sure saving a bit of dosh will be that significant.
    The reality of it is is that it is the money of the donors, I suspect many of them have been very unimpressed with Bailey and they've asked for their donations to be not spent in London.

    Given the other elections available resources may be better deployed there.

    I suspect all parties are dealing with the ramifications of there being two general elections in two years
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,828

    I guess his internal polling was a load of shite.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1371899002506129413

    Insiders saw the Rose landslide coming early on, his lead is so big most of the polls are now without him included.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Cicero said:

    What the hell has happened to the EU

    ..or were we having some weird kind of moderating effect on it as a member? Either way, they are looking increasingly alien

    Reading the UK press today I was thinking the same thing... in reverse. An astonishing load of propaganda and almost all of it is dishonest and often a lie direct. Overwhelmingly the British Press simply serves up a nakedly anti EU agenda regardless of the truth.

    I wont defend the mistakes that were made, but the hysterical tone of the UK media is incredibly dangerous. The EU noted that there might be a problem with blood clots with the AZ vaccine and investigated. Should they have done nothing? They found no problem and are resuming using the AZ vaccine. This is reported as the EU "folding". It´s total horse shit, but the UK feral press reports things in emotive and misleading ways. This is to the point where I reiterate: The UK now functions in a separate information space, where objectivity has been trashed in favour of propaganda and lies.

    It is not reported in the UK that there is a view that the UK is being pretty reckless about the second jab. Here in Tallinn we are 15% vaccinated and accelerating BUT 40% of those are getting their second jab within the manufacturers recommended time. In the UK the percentage with a second jab is still only about 6%.

    Here, we should have completed the programme by the end of May, and plenty of EU members are not far behind. This is not chaos, it is cautious and sensible, but the Far Right in the UK seem determined to launch propaganda attacks regardless.

    From where I stand the UK, with the highest death rate and with massive and growing economic problems should be thinking hard and very soberly about what went wrong, but all we are seeing is this hysterical drivel. It does, admittedly, distract attention from the collapse of EU-UK trade, and I suppose that is kind of the point.

    Pretty sinister if you ask me. Quo Vadis, Britannia?
    Utter rubbish. Dangerous rubbish. But whatever
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Tories taking this seat.

    Have you added in all the UKIPER/BREXITY Party voters from 2019 to the Conservative column? If you do it becomes quite clear.
    A lot of them won't go Conservative though. This is what Farage knew. A lot of old Labour just can't bring themselves to vote Tory... Without BXP most of their voters will stay at home.
    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Tories taking this seat.

    Have you added in all the UKIPER/BREXITY Party voters from 2019 to the Conservative column? If you do it becomes quite clear.
    But there is no same basis for doing such a thing. There just isn't.
    The perception is the Party led by Johnson isn't a distant, elitist cabal of overindulged Southern, public schoolboys. After all Johnson goes out to work in a hi-viz jacket or a lab coat like the rest of us grafters. Johnson and his compatriots have the interests of hard working blue collar staff in their hearts. For goodness sake they have spent the last year feeding our bank accounts with free money. This isn't the Tory Party of Home or Heath, or even Cameron and Osborne for that matter. It is the party of "Boris", infact are they even called Conservatives anymore?

    The perception of the Labour Party at present, is that of Southern public school elitists who have never done a day's work in their lives. They are only interested in taking the knee, supporting foreigners, Rochdale cabbies, and people who pull down statues of patriotic heroes.

    For this perception to change, economic hardship will need to bite, and when it does, Dido Harding and PPE procurement scandals will become important to people struggling to pay their mortgage. If it doesn't Boris can happily celebrate a 25 year premiership.
    Is this some kind of a joke post?
    Nope. Just go out and talk to people you would assume to be sympathetic to Labour and hostile to Johnson.

    The perception of the Conservatives will change, when the majority of people realise they are being taken for mugs . That is not to say Labour will necessarily been in pole position to hoover up these disaffected voters
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Leslie Evans will be burnt as a sacrificial offering for the greater good, only consoled by an absurd payoff to keep her mouth shut. Sturgeon's husband may well be burned in the same conflagration. But Nicola will walk through the flames like Daenerys Targaryen Khaleesi. It is foretold.
    Did you have to give us the image of Nicola Sturgeon stark naked and covered in soot and dragons?
    I believe it is traditional to offer the following picture, in the absence of the one you seek.

    image
    Argh! My eyes!

    I refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell vs Pressdram.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586

    Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.

    Even though the Teeside mayoral election is probably going to be taking place on the same day.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Remind me who was in power in the local council at Rotheram and swept so many allegations under the carpet?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    kle4 said:

    I guess a lot of PBers won't be buying phones from Utah.

    https://twitter.com/AP/status/1371916704645849089

    Cox bans porn?

    Thank goodness there is not a state, or a union of states, nearby which also sell tablets and phones.

    And thank goodness that blocking access to something deals with the desire to access it.
    The area round the Four Corners Monument is going to be busy!

    It "marks the quadripoint in the Southwestern United States where the states of Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah meet. "
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    Pagan2 said:

    Yes Minister on BBC4, followed by Reggie Perrin!

    I didn't get where I am today by watching repeats on BBC!
    You must not watch much bbc then
    More than you, I suspect.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Is that from the official Labour twitter account?
  • Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.

    It is in the Tees Valley mayoral constituency ergo it is Teeside.

    Next you'll be saying Geordies and Mackems are different groups even though they all sound the same and have an 0191 area code.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    kle4 said:

    I guess his internal polling was a load of shite.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1371899002506129413

    Eh, might as spend what they were planning anyway and hope the Assembly losses aren't too bad. Not sure saving a bit of dosh will be that significant.
    The reality of it is is that it is the money of the donors, I suspect many of them have been very unimpressed with Bailey and they've asked for their donations to be not spent in London.

    Given the other elections available resources may be better deployed there.

    I suspect all parties are dealing with the ramifications of there being two general elections in two years
    Couple of big doners could pay for that, I assume.

    If the Tories undermine Bailey and strip him of resources seems like asking to be accused at some point of not backing him fully because of racism within the party.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,692
    Andy_JS said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Is that from the official Labour twitter account?
    Yes.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    Pagan2 said:

    Yes Minister on BBC4, followed by Reggie Perrin!

    I didn't get where I am today by watching repeats on BBC!
    You must not watch much bbc then
    More than you, I suspect.
    Well yes because the only bbc I have watched in the last few years is box sets....red dwarf 1 to 6 and possibly yes minister but seem to remember that having adverts when shown originally so might not be bbc
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    More News from The Golden State

    Politico.com - ‘A mountain out of a molehill’: Feinstein dismisses Newsom’s talk of her replacement
    “I don’t know about his plans, but his relationship with me, I think, is good and strong,” the California senator said of the governor.

    Sen. Dianne Feinstein accused reporters Tuesday of misinterpreting remarks from California Gov. Gavin Newsom about her hypothetical replacement and insisted she would serve out the remainder of her term.

    “Please, we’re very good friends. I don’t think he meant that the way some people thought,” Feinstein (D-Calif.) told reporters in reference to Newsom, who is also a Democrat.

    I don’t know about his plans, but his relationship with me, I think, is good and strong,” she added. “I mean, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill.”


    Pressed on whether she felt physically able to serve, Feinstein said: “Absolutely. I think that’s pretty obvious.”

    The senator’s comments to the Capitol press corps come after the governor told MSNBC in an interview Monday that he has “multiple names in mind” who could fill Feinstein’s seat, should the 87-year-old lawmaker decide to retire before 2024 — when she is next up for reelection.

    In that same interview, Newsom also committed to select a Black woman to potentially replace Feinstein. “The answer is yes,” he said.

    The governor previously drew criticism from several women’s groups and Black leaders last December, when he appointed California Secretary of State Alex Padilla to take over the Senate seat held by then-Vice President-elect Kamala Harris — who was the chamber’s only Black woman.

    Feinstein, the former top Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, has also come under scrutiny in recent months from progressive activists and even some Senate colleagues, who were frustrated by her handling of Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett’s confirmation hearings last year. . . .
  • This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Yes it is, and I speak as someone broadly sympathetic.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Labour now back to evens, Tories slight favourites. I’m no expert on the area but I cannot see a Tory win here. Labour will throw the kitchen sink at it and I cannot imagine the Tories have much of a team on the ground, labour have far more presence locally.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,892
    kle4 said:

    <
    I think the reading of the gung ho stuff is a bit misleading. Sure people are exultant about the vaccination rollout, and there is a level of perverse satisfaction at doing better than others, but it's out of context - of course at this moment people are gung ho, but that doesn't mean people have for the whole time, in fact at other times it was one sided and repetitive about how bad we were doing, why weren't we closing the borders, why is Boris opening up at Christmas etc.

    It's like telling the winners of a GE to tone down the smug attitude the day afterwards as there are major problems coming - a bit more reflection will be appropriate, but you can given them a little while to enjoy it.

    So I don't agree with the idea that celebrating vaccination and noting the comparative problems elsewhere is the same thing as saying the UK has handled Covid brilliantly - a few claim the UK is in a better position if you look at excess deaths, but I cannot think of anyone offhand who thinks we have done brilliantly. That seems to be presumed because people are focusing on recent good news.

    If I say 'great vaccination figures today, but shame about the numbers in X', it doesn't mean I think the UK is faultless and X is shit.

    I'm far from convinced some on here follow your eminently sensible viewpoint.

    There are those who have consistently and persistently defended Boris Johnson and the Government irrespective of the mistakes made. If I, as a staunch critic of the Government, am able to acknowledge it is doing something right, it would be refreshing to see a staunch supporter of the Government argue it may have done some things wrong.

    As for the post-GE smug attitude, it's been nearly 18 months and the attitude seems as smug as ever and even more so with each poll. When, and it is when, the Government becomes unpopular and starts trailing by 5-10 points regularly, it will be interesting to see if the smugness continues.

    MY concern is however well we may do once restrictions are lifted, the fact a significant economic area close to us is struggling will impact. It may be we will be encouraged to journey to St Ives and Salcombe (both beautiful places) rather than Skiathos or Sicily but I suspect for many part of the holiday is about not staying at home.

    For me, it's Cheltenham this week and I note the smaller fields caused, it is said, by the 650 euros it now costs to bring each horse over from Ireland or France and the problem the owners and their mates can't rent that nice cottage at Winchcombe and spend the evening carousing in Cheltenham town. Yes, the racing is on but the economic impact of no crowd (no casual work at the track for example) belies the illusion of normality.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    kle4 said:

    I guess his internal polling was a load of shite.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1371899002506129413

    Eh, might as spend what they were planning anyway and hope the Assembly losses aren't too bad. Not sure saving a bit of dosh will be that significant.
    There's a heck of a lot of elections on that day, now potentially including a winnable Parliamentary by-election too.

    Why put the money and effort into a Mayoral race that has already been conceded* realistically, when those resources could be directed at races that are competitive?

    * and if it hadn't been, he wouldn't have been the candidate.
    Not saying they should splurge the cash, but is the benefit of saving a small amount worth the additional cost of humiliating your own candidate and pissing him right the heck off?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    The charge is it has effectively been decriminalised. Implying a good conviction rate previously, let's say 50%.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    I don’t know why Labour tweeted that considering there has been issue with low conviction rates for rape for a very long time now. Certainly I don’t remember things being much different when Labour were in power, but I am happy to be corrected.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419

    Pagan2 said:

    Yes Minister on BBC4, followed by Reggie Perrin!

    I didn't get where I am today by watching repeats on BBC!
    You must not watch much bbc then
    More than you, I suspect.
    I got the CJ reference !
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    Cicero said:

    It is not reported in the UK that there is a view that the UK is being pretty reckless about the second jab. Here in Tallinn we are 15% vaccinated and accelerating BUT 40% of those are getting their second jab within the manufacturers recommended time. In the UK the percentage with a second jab is still only about 6%.

    This is an utterly disingenuous use of statistics. The reason the percentage with a second jab is relatively low is that we've give so many jabs in total. The UK's vaccine strategy is anything but reckless.
    The AZ specifically indicated for a 12 week delay too, for best use. The Pfizer delay is not what the manufacturer recommends but the rationale behind it is sound, and supported by most experts. I hope it is the right call, but have worries at all about the correct use of the AZ vaccine.
    Looking at the efficacy data from the studies already underway the decision to delay the Pfizer second dose looks like a very good one. It increases overall coverage by 60-70% vs sticking to the schedule. The expert I've had two interviews with so far and has been basically 100% right in their predictions said the decision may actually get the best immunogeneticity for the Pfizer vaccine and the longer gap of over 6 weeks may actually lead to the Pfizer vaccine providing years of immunity rather than just months. The same was said about lengthening the AZ gap before the studies were concluded as well and the expert looks to be right about that already.

    The expert said that it would also be a good idea for the government to hold the minimum 6 week dosing gap for the new vaccines and young people too, so if the predictions of everyone getting their first dose by the third week of May are true then with a 6 week gap we could have the whole adult population done by the middle of July.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    Implying that's the only part of the bill. Naughty.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    Andy_JS said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Is that from the official Labour twitter account?
    Yes.
    I’d like to think that wasn’t signed off by the Shadow Cabinet.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    I guess his internal polling was a load of shite.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1371899002506129413

    Spend it in Hartlepool instead, before the spending limits kick in......
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    It's definitely election season. Grubby little so and sos.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Paging Malc! :D
    Rank Bad Un for sure, hopefully she does not get away with it.
    PS: Salmond offered them up weeks ago but Sturgeon had her pet Lord Advocate tell the inquiry they should not ask for them as they were secret.
    Who first said, the cover-up is worse than the crime? The Code of Hammurabi?
    Davis speech in the House
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-stories-that-are-true/
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    stodge said:

    kle4 said:

    <
    I think the reading of the gung ho stuff is a bit misleading. Sure people are exultant about the vaccination rollout, and there is a level of perverse satisfaction at doing better than others, but it's out of context - of course at this moment people are gung ho, but that doesn't mean people have for the whole time, in fact at other times it was one sided and repetitive about how bad we were doing, why weren't we closing the borders, why is Boris opening up at Christmas etc.

    It's like telling the winners of a GE to tone down the smug attitude the day afterwards as there are major problems coming - a bit more reflection will be appropriate, but you can given them a little while to enjoy it.

    So I don't agree with the idea that celebrating vaccination and noting the comparative problems elsewhere is the same thing as saying the UK has handled Covid brilliantly - a few claim the UK is in a better position if you look at excess deaths, but I cannot think of anyone offhand who thinks we have done brilliantly. That seems to be presumed because people are focusing on recent good news.

    If I say 'great vaccination figures today, but shame about the numbers in X', it doesn't mean I think the UK is faultless and X is shit.

    I'm far from convinced some on here follow your eminently sensible viewpoint.

    There are those who have consistently and persistently defended Boris Johnson and the Government irrespective of the mistakes made. If I, as a staunch critic of the Government, am able to acknowledge it is doing something right, it would be refreshing to see a staunch supporter of the Government argue it may have done some things wrong.

    As for the post-GE smug attitude, it's been nearly 18 months and the attitude seems as smug as ever and even more so with each poll. When, and it is when, the Government becomes unpopular and starts trailing by 5-10 points regularly, it will be interesting to see if the smugness continues.

    MY concern is however well we may do once restrictions are lifted, the fact a significant economic area close to us is struggling will impact. It may be we will be encouraged to journey to St Ives and Salcombe (both beautiful places) rather than Skiathos or Sicily but I suspect for many part of the holiday is about not staying at home.

    For me, it's Cheltenham this week and I note the smaller fields caused, it is said, by the 650 euros it now costs to bring each horse over from Ireland or France and the problem the owners and their mates can't rent that nice cottage at Winchcombe and spend the evening carousing in Cheltenham town. Yes, the racing is on but the economic impact of no crowd (no casual work at the track for example) belies the illusion of normality.
    There are many beautiful places to go that aren't in the eu
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,822
    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Summary

    Everything down, apart from cases which are plateauing. This is because of a rise in reported cases in the 0-14 cohort

    image

    The vaccine effect is shown strongly in this graph as well - 65+ plummeting below everyone younger.

    Show that graph to these idiots in Luton. If they still refuse the vaccine, refuse them treatment on the NHS, should they get the virus. Their call

    Meanwhile, if these EU politicians have caused major vaccine reluctance in the UK, they will have caused significant deaths in the UK. That's a casus belli. Get out the fucking nukes
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    I don’t know why Labour tweeted that considering there has been issue with low conviction rates for rape for a very long time now. Certainly I don’t remember things being much different when Labour were in power, but I am happy to be corrected.

    I am sure it was much better when SKS was DPP. Bound to have been, wasn't it?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    Neither are a good look, but the Labour one is significantly more offensive
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Paging Malc! :D
    Rank Bad Un for sure, hopefully she does not get away with it.
    PS: Salmond offered them up weeks ago but Sturgeon had her pet Lord Advocate tell the inquiry they should not ask for them as they were secret.
    Who first said, the cover-up is worse than the crime? The Code of Hammurabi?
    Davis speech in the House
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-stories-that-are-true/
    Hard hitting and well presented
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    Why i suggested the jury give two verdicts, one based on beyond reasonable doubt, one on balance of probabilities. A guilty on the second doesn't lead to a jail sentence but does lead to damages. No reason why you have to have two trials for it
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    Neither are a good look, but the Labour one is significantly more offensive
    Agree on that.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,031

    I guess a lot of PBers won't be buying phones from Utah.

    https://twitter.com/AP/status/1371916704645849089

    "Fired another salvo"

    Great choice of words!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    Several of the replies under the tweet make the point about the underfunding and cocking around with the justice system generally, which as per many a cyclefree header I think a lot of people on here would get behind, and has probably made an already hard task even more difficult. But even though it is only a tweet designed to spark raw emotion, it's certainly setting an impossible target for the party - every report should lead to a charge.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    Cicero said:

    What the hell has happened to the EU

    ..or were we having some weird kind of moderating effect on it as a member? Either way, they are looking increasingly alien

    Reading the UK press today I was thinking the same thing... in reverse. An astonishing load of propaganda and almost all of it is dishonest and often a lie direct. Overwhelmingly the British Press simply serves up a nakedly anti EU agenda regardless of the truth.

    I wont defend the mistakes that were made, but the hysterical tone of the UK media is incredibly dangerous. The EU noted that there might be a problem with blood clots with the AZ vaccine and investigated. Should they have done nothing? They found no problem and are resuming using the AZ vaccine. This is reported as the EU "folding". It´s total horse shit, but the UK feral press reports things in emotive and misleading ways. This is to the point where I reiterate: The UK now functions in a separate information space, where objectivity has been trashed in favour of propaganda and lies.

    It is not reported in the UK that there is a view that the UK is being pretty reckless about the second jab. Here in Tallinn we are 15% vaccinated and accelerating BUT 40% of those are getting their second jab within the manufacturers recommended time. In the UK the percentage with a second jab is still only about 6%.

    Here, we should have completed the programme by the end of May, and plenty of EU members are not far behind. This is not chaos, it is cautious and sensible, but the Far Right in the UK seem determined to launch propaganda attacks regardless.

    From where I stand the UK, with the highest death rate and with massive and growing economic problems should be thinking hard and very soberly about what went wrong, but all we are seeing is this hysterical drivel. It does, admittedly, distract attention from the collapse of EU-UK trade, and I suppose that is kind of the point.

    Pretty sinister if you ask me. Quo Vadis, Britannia?
    They paused the rollout when they suspected a rate of clots less than one-two-hundredth the known rate in the contraceptive pill, and possibly comparable to the rate of side-effects from paracetomol.

    By pausing the vaccine rollout for two days so far, Ireland alone has signed the death warrants of 20-40 of its own citizens. If the pause extends to two weeks, that will be hundreds of extra unnecessary deaths it has incurred.

    Any government that knowingly delays the vaccine rollout has chosen the deaths of a certain number of its citizens.

    You can approximate that by taking the current daily death rate and multiplying that by the number of days of the delay.
    (This is approximate; it does depend on who is being vaccinated (you would hope the most vulnerable first), and assumes a constant infection rate. If the infection rate is growing (spoiler: it is growing in every one of the countries in question), they are killing more of their people.

    Take a look here: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/16/what-is-going-on-with-the-astrazeneca-oxford-vaccine
    (Derek Lowe is not European or British).

    You're also accusing all the various scientists who have commented on this entire subject over the past couple of days (British scientists, American scientists, the Italian regulator, the EMA who recommend NOT PAUSING) of being hopelessly biased pro-UK.

    So YES they should not have paused the rollout unless they had reason to believe that doing so might save more lives than it sacrificed.

    The entire populations of every country are all on a travellator moving towards a door marked "Covid"
    Pass through that door and you join a group. Of every ten million in that group:
    - 70,000 die, fairly horribly
    - 350,000-500,000 get so ill they are hospitalised and often have life-long conditions coming out of it
    - Around 1,000,000 will be sick for months at a time; some for a year or longer; maybe permanently
    - Around 7,000,000 will get sick for around two weeks

    And everyone will be pushed remorselessly through that door unless they get out through an escape hatch to a second group. Of this second group, out of every ten million:
    - Possibly one will die of thrombosis (but probably would have died of thrombosis anyway)
    - About 1,000,000 will feel fluey for a day or two.

    That's it.

    These governments, seeing that "possibly one..." slammed shut that escape hatch... and simply let their populations be pulled along the travellator towards the Covid Door.

    No, these European countries (that are explicitly going AGAINST the EMA advice) are being really fucking stupid and it's not down to British media hysteria.
    Absolutely great post Andy, I think the key point here that @williamglenn made earlier today is that the European governments are simply ignoring the advice of the EU's regulator and making it up as they go along. That's really damaging for anyone who believes in the EU project as Cicero claims to do.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Pagan2 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Remind me who was in power in the local council at Rotheram and swept so many allegations under the carpet?
    Many responses to the tweet are making that same point.

    I’m staggered at the irresponsibility of it, especially after recent events.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited March 2021
    alex_ said:

    WHAT are the odds, that Boris will swing the Harlepool by-election, by getting the Queen to pardon the monkey?

    Why would pardoning the monkey be popular? Filthy foreign spy.

    Good point! OK, how about doubling down - digging the monkey up, and having the remains burnt at the stake?

    "Bravo, Bojo! If being dug up and burnt was good enough for old Cromwell, it's good enough for our monkey!"
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    RobD said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    Implying that's the only part of the bill. Naughty.
    But that is sort of within the boundaries of rufty, tufty dirty politics. The Labour effort is a straightforward lie.
  • kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    It's definitely election season. Grubby little so and sos.
    To be honest this is the first time Labour have gone dirty since 2010.

    I think the message that you get 5 years for rape but 10 years for attacking a statue must have some resonance with their focus groups.

    (I mean it is a rubbish comparison comparing a starting point for the sentence of one crime with the maximum of another crime but hey ho.)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2021
    DavidL said:

    I don’t know why Labour tweeted that considering there has been issue with low conviction rates for rape for a very long time now. Certainly I don’t remember things being much different when Labour were in power, but I am happy to be corrected.

    I am sure it was much better when SKS was DPP. Bound to have been, wasn't it?
    Isn't it the case that an overwhelming majority of cases never get anywhere near court either because of a complete lack of evidence, or because the complaint chooses to drop the complaint? There's not much that can be done about that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    I guess his internal polling was a load of shite.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1371899002506129413

    Spend it in Hartlepool instead, before the spending limits kick in......
    Glad to see the party see sense and dump Bailey. He's useless and a racist.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    DavidL said:

    I don’t know why Labour tweeted that considering there has been issue with low conviction rates for rape for a very long time now. Certainly I don’t remember things being much different when Labour were in power, but I am happy to be corrected.

    I am sure it was much better when SKS was DPP. Bound to have been, wasn't it?
    Yes, I forgot about that. If people start scrutinising his record on this further he may live to regret the angle they are going on this....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.

    It is in the Tees Valley mayoral constituency ergo it is Teeside.

    Next you'll be saying Geordies and Mackems are different groups even though they all sound the same and have an 0191 area code.
    Quit Teesing!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    Why i suggested the jury give two verdicts, one based on beyond reasonable doubt, one on balance of probabilities. A guilty on the second doesn't lead to a jail sentence but does lead to damages. No reason why you have to have two trials for it
    Innocent or guilty. There can't be anything in between as it's still a life altering verdict and effectively sanctioning "well there's no smoke without fire" in legal terms, that seems like it would end really badly.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,542

    Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.

    It is in the Tees Valley mayoral constituency ergo it is Teeside.

    Next you'll be saying Geordies and Mackems are different groups even though they all sound the same and have an 0191 area code.
    Understanding the history of local government organisation and its changes in the area of the old Co Durham is not altogether straightforward.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    Neither are a good look, but the Labour one is significantly more offensive
    Surely this is a case of let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    Rotherham? Rochdale? Labour's own record on protection of young girls is open to serious attack.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Crikey that Tory one is awful too., shame on both of them. Equally bad especially given recent events.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    It's definitely election season. Grubby little so and sos.
    To be honest this is the first time Labour have gone dirty since 2010.

    I think the message that you get 5 years for rape but 10 years for attacking a statue must have some resonance with their focus groups.

    (I mean it is a rubbish comparison comparing a starting point for the sentence of one crime with the maximum of another crime but hey ho.)
    There's a decent argument that the best way to increase the willingness of juries to convict rape defendants is to reduce the sentences when found guilty. Not for the most vicious, violent types, but for the more borderline date rape type cases. The worse the likely sentence, the more doubt of conviction is likely to be exacerbated.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    Several of the replies under the tweet make the point about the underfunding and cocking around with the justice system generally, which as per many a cyclefree header I think a lot of people on here would get behind, and has probably made an already hard task even more difficult. But even though it is only a tweet designed to spark raw emotion, it's certainly setting an impossible target for the party - every report should lead to a charge.
    It shouldn't do because not every report is as it seems at first. I know someone who ended up in court for rape and he got off in the end because the girls boyfriend gave evidence.

    He noticed marks on her and questioned them she told him she had been raped. He got her to make a complaint as he should. Just prior to trial she broke down and told him she wasn't raped she just said that so she didnt have to admit infidelity.....friends lawyer couldn't believe his luck when the boyfriend came up to him just prior to the start of the trial. Friend still had to endure a year of uncertainty and no smoke without fire gossip.

    That is not to say all claims are false but as was said often its a he said she said situation and hard to work out beyond reasonable doubt.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    It's a shame they've ennobled Jenny Chapman. A bit kick ass and having to battle against being a Darlo parachutee to boot, she'd certainly have lit the red touch paper under the by-election.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Remind me who was in power in the local council at Rotheram and swept so many allegations under the carpet?
    Many responses to the tweet are making that same point.

    I’m staggered at the irresponsibility of it, especially after recent events.
    Maybe they are risking irresponsibility BECAUSE of recent events.
  • algarkirk said:

    Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.

    It is in the Tees Valley mayoral constituency ergo it is Teeside.

    Next you'll be saying Geordies and Mackems are different groups even though they all sound the same and have an 0191 area code.
    Understanding the history of local government organisation and its changes in the area of the old Co Durham is not altogether straightforward.
    The best thing any Prime Minister has ever done was Ted Heath's local government reorganisation when he rightly put Middlesbrough in the North East.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    It's definitely election season. Grubby little so and sos.
    To be honest this is the first time Labour have gone dirty since 2010.
    Seems unlikely - X dead due to austerity?

    You'd think they'd learn from opponents its never too soon to go dirty.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    edited March 2021
    MattW said:

    On Mike Hill, his final hearing in the sexual harassment case is on May 10-19th, which may become an Election overshadowing issue.

    https://www.farorelaw.co.uk/insights/ms-a-v-mike-hill-mp

    I wonder if Lab are planning to run a prominent campaign around sexual crime / VAWG.

    This is the aggressive Labour Tweet, which I make the second after the one "more than 50%" one.

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    I would suggest that this line of inquiry may not go to Labour's favour. They're deep in the muck with the Rotherham scandal and the way they tried to silence their own MP and Labour councillors have been implicated in the various reports.

    Honestly, if CCHQ has got the balls they will get MPs to simply quote Professor Jay's report to the PM in PMQs which was extremely damning for all involved.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    Several of the replies under the tweet make the point about the underfunding and cocking around with the justice system generally, which as per many a cyclefree header I think a lot of people on here would get behind, and has probably made an already hard task even more difficult. But even though it is only a tweet designed to spark raw emotion, it's certainly setting an impossible target for the party - every report should lead to a charge.
    It shouldn't do because not every report is as it seems at first. I know someone who ended up in court for rape and he got off in the end because the girls boyfriend gave evidence.

    He noticed marks on her and questioned them she told him she had been raped. He got her to make a complaint as he should. Just prior to trial she broke down and told him she wasn't raped she just said that so she didnt have to admit infidelity.....friends lawyer couldn't believe his luck when the boyfriend came up to him just prior to the start of the trial. Friend still had to endure a year of uncertainty and no smoke without fire gossip.

    That is not to say all claims are false but as was said often its a he said she said situation and hard to work out beyond reasonable doubt.
    I don't think every report should lead to a charge either - but that is the implication of the tweet, as a failure to charge is said to be the same as decriminalising rape.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    algarkirk said:

    Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.

    It is in the Tees Valley mayoral constituency ergo it is Teeside.

    Next you'll be saying Geordies and Mackems are different groups even though they all sound the same and have an 0191 area code.
    Understanding the history of local government organisation and its changes in the area of the old Co Durham is not altogether straightforward.
    The best thing any Prime Minister has ever done was Ted Heath's local government reorganisation when he rightly put Middlesbrough in the North East.
    Wouldn't the town have been better served IF he'd had it towed somewhere in the vicinity of the Isle of Wight?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Taz said:

    Crikey that Tory one is awful too., shame on both of them. Equally bad especially given recent events.

    They are just two monkeys from the same family the sooner both of them disappear the better
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    I don't understand how it is one person's word against another. If a person says they did not consent to something I'm not sure that any other person's opinion is relevant.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Taz said:

    Crikey that Tory one is awful too., shame on both of them. Equally bad especially given recent events.

    Bit more common style - have a big broad bill, they object to parts of it, say they object to all of it - than a direct accusation though, hence it being far bolder.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,542
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    Several of the replies under the tweet make the point about the underfunding and cocking around with the justice system generally, which as per many a cyclefree header I think a lot of people on here would get behind, and has probably made an already hard task even more difficult. But even though it is only a tweet designed to spark raw emotion, it's certainly setting an impossible target for the party - every report should lead to a charge.
    It shouldn't do because not every report is as it seems at first. I know someone who ended up in court for rape and he got off in the end because the girls boyfriend gave evidence.

    He noticed marks on her and questioned them she told him she had been raped. He got her to make a complaint as he should. Just prior to trial she broke down and told him she wasn't raped she just said that so she didnt have to admit infidelity.....friends lawyer couldn't believe his luck when the boyfriend came up to him just prior to the start of the trial. Friend still had to endure a year of uncertainty and no smoke without fire gossip.

    That is not to say all claims are false but as was said often its a he said she said situation and hard to work out beyond reasonable doubt.
    Politicising all this is pretty deadly on both sides. Parliament decides the law, the police and CPS investigate and prosecute, juries decide. Politics will do well to keep absolutely clear of every part of this except deciding the law.

  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    If that's the way they want politics to be played, then good luck to the vile little hypocrites. Let's never hear another word about civility from them ever again.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    Several of the replies under the tweet make the point about the underfunding and cocking around with the justice system generally, which as per many a cyclefree header I think a lot of people on here would get behind, and has probably made an already hard task even more difficult. But even though it is only a tweet designed to spark raw emotion, it's certainly setting an impossible target for the party - every report should lead to a charge.
    It shouldn't do because not every report is as it seems at first. I know someone who ended up in court for rape and he got off in the end because the girls boyfriend gave evidence.

    He noticed marks on her and questioned them she told him she had been raped. He got her to make a complaint as he should. Just prior to trial she broke down and told him she wasn't raped she just said that so she didnt have to admit infidelity.....friends lawyer couldn't believe his luck when the boyfriend came up to him just prior to the start of the trial. Friend still had to endure a year of uncertainty and no smoke without fire gossip.

    That is not to say all claims are false but as was said often its a he said she said situation and hard to work out beyond reasonable doubt.
    I don't think every report should lead to a charge either - but that is the implication of the tweet, as a failure to charge is said to be the same as decriminalising rape.
    Yes and thats wrong a failure to charge means insufficient evidence and while rape is totally repugnant it remains a difficult one to charge purely due to the intimate nature of it and that 90% is done in the privacy of a home so no witnesses
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Both parties are at it tonight.

    https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1371899297101455374
    It's definitely election season. Grubby little so and sos.
    To be honest this is the first time Labour have gone dirty since 2010.

    I think the message that you get 5 years for rape but 10 years for attacking a statue must have some resonance with their focus groups.

    (I mean it is a rubbish comparison comparing a starting point for the sentence of one crime with the maximum of another crime but hey ho.)
    There's a decent argument that the best way to increase the willingness of juries to convict rape defendants is to reduce the sentences when found guilty. Not for the most vicious, violent types, but for the more borderline date rape type cases. The worse the likely sentence, the more doubt of conviction is likely to be exacerbated.
    I'm not so sure. A two year rape sentence will just as thoroughly destroy the life of the convict as a ten year rape sentence.

    The big barrier to a higher conviction rate is, of course, the he said/she said problem. Short of reversing the burden of proof in criminal trials and forcing the accused to prove consent beyond reasonable doubt, I'm not sure how much can reasonably be done to boost conviction rates in the bulk of cases where the parties are already known to one another. But I don't know, perhaps I'm being excessively pessimistic over this...?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,031

    Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.

    It is in the Tees Valley mayoral constituency ergo it is Teeside.

    Next you'll be saying Geordies and Mackems are different groups even though they all sound the same and have an 0191 area code.
    Hay, I'm just trying to be helpful. Like when I point out that there are two esses in the middle of Teesside.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    If that's the way they want politics to be played, then good luck to the vile little hypocrites. Let's never hear another word about civility from them ever again.
    Would you support the tories playing the Rotherham card?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    Gosh. SKS must be getting desperate...
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    I don't understand how it is one person's word against another. If a person says they did not consent to something I'm not sure that any other person's opinion is relevant.
    Well take for example this scenario

    Person a and b hook up in a pub....neither are that drunk, they sleep together consensually. In the morning person a regrets it or as in the case of my friend gets found out and claims it was rape. That does happen more than you might think
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,995
    ‘Anyone ‘ere been sexually assaulted?’

    https://twitter.com/panoparker/status/1371762846418210818?s=21
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    I'm watching The Hollow Crown: Richard II again, with Ben Wishart and Patrick Stewart.

    Because it's excellent.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    algarkirk said:

    Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.

    It is in the Tees Valley mayoral constituency ergo it is Teeside.

    Next you'll be saying Geordies and Mackems are different groups even though they all sound the same and have an 0191 area code.
    Understanding the history of local government organisation and its changes in the area of the old Co Durham is not altogether straightforward.
    There's an extensive legacy of 1970s boundary vandalism in that part of the world. As well as bits of County Durham disappearing into Cleveland and Tyne & Wear, a chunk of the North Riding ended up in County Durham (and is still there.)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    Crikey that Tory one is awful too., shame on both of them. Equally bad especially given recent events.

    They are just two monkeys from the same family the sooner both of them disappear the better
    You could be in for a long wait there.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870

    Any candidate hoping to win in Hartlepool needs to appreciate that it should be referred to as being in County Durham, not Teesside.

    Or worse still, "Cleveland"!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,476
    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Paging Malc! :D
    Rank Bad Un for sure, hopefully she does not get away with it.
    PS: Salmond offered them up weeks ago but Sturgeon had her pet Lord Advocate tell the inquiry they should not ask for them as they were secret.
    That was really terrible - he gives the committee a way within the law to get that evidence - so the Lord Advocate jumps in with his size 12 hobnails and says OH NOOO YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT. Like a spoiled child not sharing its toys.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Floater said:
    Only because the Supreme Court forced them to do it. It was either comply or shut up shop.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    This is a seriously irresponsible tweet from Labour.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488

    That...is a pretty bold statement. And apart from anything else I have no idea what the stats were under previous governments so I have no way of knowing if the disparity between 'reports' and 'charges' has grown.
    It has grown, a bit. Though I think it was always a massive discrepancy. And I think the reason it has grown is that there has been much greater encouragement to report rape (and indeed greater keenness to take it to court).

    The problem with trying rape is that it is, by its nature, almost always one person's word against another. In a culture where we are innocent until proven guilty, that makes it very hard to make a conviction.
    I don't understand how it is one person's word against another. If a person says they did not consent to something I'm not sure that any other person's opinion is relevant.
    Because no one ever lies, or changes their mind, or gets drunk and fancies a guy but in the morning thinks they have made a mistake.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Re: California, really do think there's gold in them thar hills for semi-intrepid, quasi-savvy PBers.

    Am pretty sure that Gavin Newsome will survive the recall and remain Governor of California, at least to the end of current term.

    Am even more certain, that Trump, GOP, etc., etc. are going to spend a boatload trying to defeat AND replace Newsome.

    AND am rock-solid positive, that LOTS of crazed Trumpkyites are gonna put LOTS of moolah down betting against Newsome.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    ‘Anyone ‘ere been sexually assaulted?’

    https://twitter.com/panoparker/status/1371762846418210818?s=21

    Under the strict definition of sexual assault, ie unwanted grabbing of genitalia etc. Yes I have by more than one hen night
This discussion has been closed.