Jedward, bless em, seem to have joined the brigade of blue ticks posting nonsense for likes and retweets. Mind you, as Irishmen, they have no reason to like Churchill.
Regarding things that 'have no place in our society' I fear they may be projecting.
I am sorry to say I had never heard of Jedward, but to a lot of Tory voters, however unfairly, Jedward comes across as the sorts of people (are there two of them in the picture?) who might at a pinch support Labour. Perhaps someone can tell me who they are.
I raised an eyebrow over Oxford-AZ's trials last year, which they screwed up with the data sets & integration. But, they spotted it, corrected it, re-ran it, got very good results, and then got approval - so my concerns went away.
I don't know why that's not the same for others. Perhaps they need reminding of the scientific method.
Sigh. My wife has been having a problem with a kidney stone. She has just been told to come into hospital tonight so they can operate tomorrow. She was due to finally get her vaccination on Thursday. Roughly 2/3 of all Scottish infections have come through hospitals.
At 60 she really should have been vaccinated weeks ago so that she would have some protection. I am not happy. Not at all.
Is there anything to stop you getting an appointment in England? Down here you just log on to the website, give your NHS number, and off you go. No waiting for "letters". And your wife and you would have been jabbed last week, your wife indeed several weeks before that
I should probably have tried that because this has been coming. Too late now to get any protection unfortunately.
Deeply irritating and worrisome for you. Good luck
Wear the best fucking masks in the world. FFP3 military grade or something
Thank god our opposition is Starmer, the SNP, and Davey. We can be pretty sure none of them will use events in Europe to call the safety of AZ into question against the scientific advice.
I love changing headlines. Earlier today there was one on the BBC entitled 'Is AZ safe?' (or thereabouts), the answer to which was yes in the story, but now what I think is the same story is headlines on the main page as 'Is Europe's Oxford jab decision making flawed?'
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
I come at this from a very different angle than you, as you know, but it seems to me also that the EU's apparent expectations on that score were extremely unrealistic.
Some degree of coordination/consultation would not be unreasonable, but they appear to have expected us to entirely subcontract our trade policy to them.
Agreed, I think one of the problems the EU has is that within Europe the non-EU countries do co-ordinate a lot of stuff with the EU and the EU keeps most of them on a fairly tight leash with forced standards alignment either by single market membership (Norway) or with treaty obligations (Switzerland) that limit the ability of these nations to have a properly independent trade policy. The UK has, with the TCA, managed to extricate itself from all of these obligations while maintaining a very high level of access for goods trade that it can choose to dilute at a time which suits it. Again, looking at the level of pedantry at the border with ham sandwich confiscation it shows a huge amount of insecurity in what they've agreed with us.
Their worst fear is a hugely successful UK sitting just off their border making EU members, specifically the net contributors, wonder what the EU is actually useful for. This vaccine fiasco has surely not helped at all.
Yes, but of course the Norways and Switzerlands have much greater benefits in return for their complaisance. To expect that in return for the very thin deal we negotiated with the EU is unreasonable. (Which is not to say that our self-contradictory position on the NI-UK border/not border is particularly reasonable.)
Sigh. My wife has been having a problem with a kidney stone. She has just been told to come into hospital tonight so they can operate tomorrow. She was due to finally get her vaccination on Thursday. Roughly 2/3 of all Scottish infections have come through hospitals.
At 60 she really should have been vaccinated weeks ago so that she would have some protection. I am not happy. Not at all.
Commiserations to the good lady on the kidney stone. Trust me, she won't be giving a shiny shit about anything other than getting rid of it. Bastard painful things.
Oh my effing god, this vax hysteria in continental Europe is actually unbelievable. It's like someone has made the whole thing up as a global exercise in fake news.
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
And, we will - where our interests align.
The UK has a special relationship with the USA, very much as the junior partner. But, that isn't built on total obedience and, if it was, we wouldn't have a special relationship.
We really only have a special relationship in the minds of some British politicians who use it as an excuse to suck up to Washington. The USA has a close relationship with us on security matters, but then it also does with a small number of key allies, but it always has been "America first" long before the Trump era. Our "special relationship" means jackshit when it comes to most matters. Genuine patriots should be embarrassed by how UK politicians desperately want to be seen as "bestest friend" with a foreign power.
Jedward, bless em, seem to have joined the brigade of blue ticks posting nonsense for likes and retweets. Mind you, as Irishmen, they have no reason to like Churchill.
Regarding things that 'have no place in our society' I fear they may be projecting.
I am sorry to say I had never heard of Jedward, but to a lot of Tory voters, however unfairly, Jedward comes across as the sorts of people (are there two of them in the picture?) who might at a pinch support Labour. Perhaps someone can tell me who they are.
I suspect that I'm not the only Remainer who is deeply saddened and shocked by the antics of our continental friends over the past weeks.
That said, I respect that many Leavers will also be saddened and shocked by it.
In a weird way, the vax programme has done more to unite Leavers and Remainers in the UK than any politician has achieved. Funny old world.
Ditto. I'm a Leaver, and I confess, at first, I took some naughty pleasure in the EU comprehensively custard-pieing itself, again and again. The sudden imposition of a new Irish border, without asking Ireland, was my favourite moment. It was impossible not to feel schadenfreude after so many years of the EU, and its Remainer allies, sneering at UK incompetence (often justifiably, if somewhat overdone).
However this is now way beyond that. I am a European, this is my continent and my civilisation, I have friends, family and many acquaintances across the Channel. The ludicrous behaviour by Brussels and EU capitals endangers their lives, endangers economies, menaces future UK/EU relations (and EU relations elsewhere: see Australia), it also weakens the West - further and again - at a crucial time.
So now I just feel sadness. And alarm.
it's like seeing a respected if slightly irritating relative take up Ketamine and develop incontinence. I also wonder if this is how Britain looked, during the peak chaos of Brexit.
It reveals some very deep problems with the political culture. The EU risks turning itself into a parody of the things Brexiteers said it was.
So, William. You were an arch Remainer IIRC. Yet now your posts are (all credit to you) very critical of the EU. When did the picture start changing for you?
Genuine question, not trying to make snide points scoring.
Before the vaccine debacle, my thinking on world order had evolved and made me more sceptical of role of the EU in the global system. Also I find the conflation of the EU with Europe increasingly annoying. The UK didn't become less European on January 1st.
Finally, seeing Ursula von der Leyen and Charles Michel use base populist tactics to absolve the EU of any responsibility for failures in vaccine procurement completely undermines any trust in the institutions.
I really hope this doesn't spill over into anti-AZ sentiment in the UK. Sadly, I suspect its impact within the relevant EU countries is inevitable (that is, assuming vaccinations are allowed to continue).
Politico.com - A Pro-Trump scam PAC returns with a vengeance The 45th president may be gone, but the groups making money off of him are not.
President Donald Trump is out of office, but the scammers that used his name to raise money aren’t stopping.
Over the past few weeks, POLITICO has received a number of robocalls from generically named political groups asking for cash in order to help in very Trump-specific missions.
A donation of $100, for example, would help return Trump to Twitter. Or, for a similar amount, a potential donor can “stop Kamala Harris and socialism,” the calls claim. Other calls ask for money to ensure that congressional Democrats don’t dismantle the wall Trump started building along the U.S.-Mexico border.
One of the telemarketers behind the calls, who spoke to a POLITICO reporter on Wednesday, promised that “100 percent of the contributions go directly to President Trump.”
But the calls aren’t being made by Trump’s Save America political action committee. In fact, it’s not entirely clear who’s behind them. The telemarketers on the line said they were volunteers working for the Campaign to Support Republican Leaders, which is not registered with the Federal Election Commission and doesn’t have any online presence. . . .
A POLITICO investigation in 2019 identified Support American Leaders PAC as one of more than a dozen pro-Trump PACs with no actual ties to Trump. Such PACs, sometimes known as scam PACs, have plagued Republicans — and, to a lesser extent, Democrats — for years. . . . .
Trump has been trying to ensure he’s the only one who can use his name to raise money. His team recently sent cease-and-desist letters to the Republican National Committee, the National Republican Senatorial Committee, the National Republican Congressional Committee and other groups demanding they “immediately cease and desist the unauthorized use of President Donald J. Trump’s name, image, and/or likeness in all fundraising, persuasion, and/or issue speech.”
Justin Riemer, the RNC’s chief counsel, responded in a letter to Trump’s lawyer on Monday that the group had every right to refer to public figures such as Trump in its fundraising solicitations. The former president has since backed down from the threat he issued.
Save America has raised more than $31 million in less than two months after Trump’s allies started it. Trump is also reportedly planning to add a super PAC to his post-presidential operation.
Support American Leaders PAC, by contrast, reported raising nearly $2.5 million during the 2020 cycle. Less than $375,000 was spent on ads and voter contact supporting Trump, and none of it went to Trump’s campaign.
Comment - Can only hope that PB Putinists and their ilk, will continue to give generously to the Support American Leaders PAC!
BTW, isn't Nick Farage trying to get an extended booking with the same sort of gravy boat?
Unless the boffins really find some surprising evidence of lethal side-effects - which is theoretically possible, but given the UK real-life experience, highly unlikely - then at some stage the EMA, Brussels, Berlin, Paris, Rome, Macron, all of them, are going to have to walk back this process.
ie they will have to turn around and say Actually it's OK, the three week pause in vaccination was pointless, it's all safe, let's start again.
That will leave them with voters who are either very angry or very confused, or both. And lots more anti-vaxxers.
They haven't thought this through, to put it politely
EMA set to report on the clotting situation tomorrow afternoon. Assuming they say it's fine, it shouldn't take long to redistribute the delayed vaccines:
(And remember kids, the boring Euro technocrats have been fine with O-AZ from a safety/efficacy point of view. All the squarks have come from national politicians.)
Unless the boffins really find some surprising evidence of lethal side-effects - which is theoretically possible, but given the UK real-life experience, highly unlikely - then at some stage the EMA, Brussels, Berlin, Paris, Rome, Macron, all of them, are going to have to walk back this process.
ie they will have to turn around and say Actually it's OK, the three week pause in vaccination was pointless, it's all safe, let's start again.
That will leave them with voters who are either very angry or very confused, or both. And lots more anti-vaxxers.
They haven't thought this through, to put it politely
That's already happened.....with Macron and his quasi-ineffective comments, Germany FT bullshit, Merkel refusing to say she will have it.
There have been plenty of reports from Germany and France where people are saying I won't have that vaccine.
I really hope this doesn't spill over into anti-AZ sentiment in the UK. Sadly, I suspect its impact within the relevant EU countries is inevitable (that is, assuming vaccinations are allowed to continue).
Might actually push up numbers, if the form book on taking orders from Europe is to be believed...
Sigh. My wife has been having a problem with a kidney stone. She has just been told to come into hospital tonight so they can operate tomorrow. She was due to finally get her vaccination on Thursday. Roughly 2/3 of all Scottish infections have come through hospitals.
At 60 she really should have been vaccinated weeks ago so that she would have some protection. I am not happy. Not at all.
I'm in Scotland. I turned 60 last week and get my 1st jab on Thursday.
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
And, we will - where our interests align.
The UK has a special relationship with the USA, very much as the junior partner. But, that isn't built on total obedience and, if it was, we wouldn't have a special relationship.
We really only have a special relationship in the minds of some British politicians who use it as an excuse to suck up to Washington. The USA has a close relationship with us on security matters, but then it also does with a small number of key allies, but it always has been "America first" long before the Trump era. Our "special relationship" means jackshit when it comes to most matters. Genuine patriots should be embarrassed by how UK politicians desperately want to be seen as "bestest friend" with a foreign power.
Our security, defence and foreign policy co-operation with the USA is unprecedented, and our influence understated - I could list examples with Thatcher and Reagan in the Cold War, Thatcher over Bush over Iraq, Blair over Clinton in Kosovo, Blair and W Bush in Iraq, and Cameron over Obama in Libya. Boris is now pushing the D10 idea with Biden.
The days of America being able to successfully act solo in the world are gone.
Unless the boffins really find some surprising evidence of lethal side-effects - which is theoretically possible, but given the UK real-life experience, highly unlikely - then at some stage the EMA, Brussels, Berlin, Paris, Rome, Macron, all of them, are going to have to walk back this process.
ie they will have to turn around and say Actually it's OK, the three week pause in vaccination was pointless, it's all safe, let's start again.
That will leave them with voters who are either very angry or very confused, or both. And lots more anti-vaxxers.
They haven't thought this through, to put it politely
It will leave them with somebody - probably on social media rather than their supine press - making detailed calculations how many people they have killed. I just don't see what arguments they have to explain why the have acted as they have (that isn't the truth - a hissy fit about the UK getting one over the EU).
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
I come at this from a very different angle than you, as you know, but it seems to me also that the EU's apparent expectations on that score were extremely unrealistic.
Some degree of coordination/consultation would not be unreasonable, but they appear to have expected us to entirely subcontract our trade policy to them.
Agreed, I think one of the problems the EU has is that within Europe the non-EU countries do co-ordinate a lot of stuff with the EU and the EU keeps most of them on a fairly tight leash with forced standards alignment either by single market membership (Norway) or with treaty obligations (Switzerland) that limit the ability of these nations to have a properly independent trade policy. The UK has, with the TCA, managed to extricate itself from all of these obligations while maintaining a very high level of access for goods trade that it can choose to dilute at a time which suits it. Again, looking at the level of pedantry at the border with ham sandwich confiscation it shows a huge amount of insecurity in what they've agreed with us.
Their worst fear is a hugely successful UK sitting just off their border making EU members, specifically the net contributors, wonder what the EU is actually useful for. This vaccine fiasco has surely not helped at all.
Yes, but of course the Norways and Switzerlands have much greater benefits in return for their complaisance. To expect that in return for the very thin deal we negotiated with the EU is unreasonable. (Which is not to say that our self-contradictory position on the NI-UK border/not border is particularly reasonable.)
Well of course, but I think the EU didn't fully understand the nature of the deal it signed in the end. It got a few wins on food/fish border pedantry (and that's really what it is, ultimately they could easily recognise UK food standards as equivalent and end it all but they've chosen not to to make life politically difficult for Boris), the threat on financial equivalence which I think the government and the Bank are essentially working to bypass once and for all with new listing rules and new clearing measures and that's about it. It didn't get a win on the LPF and it didn't get a win on governance where the UK's version of both was accepted in the deal. That put the UK outside of the EU's sphere of influence, maybe permanently and as I said at the time I'm shocked they agreed to it.
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
There was a lot of smugness about how the negotiations has asserted EU "hegemony" in Europe, so it's come as a shock for the reality to be revealed as somewhat different.
The former UK correspondent for Le Monde, Marc Roche, wrote a book called "Brexit will succeed" in which he argued that Brexit shouldn't be judged on the negotiations, and so far that judgement has been proven correct.
That smugness must have come from people who didn't bother reading the TCA summary then, the EU handed the UK a mechanism diverge from EU standards and rather than binding the UK to EU standards they recognised that the UK won't automatically follow any new standards coming from the EU and can do so without penalty. The only thing the EU has really gained is the ability to use border pedantry on food/fish and making tourists queue up with RoW citizens. Even the financial equivalence stuff won't work out as they expect it, the government is making really good moves on listing rules, especially wrt secondary listings so we may end up in a place where EU companies that want to be part of the London one stop shop simply place a secondary listing on the LSE.
It's in the EU's own self-interest to have a constructive and friendly relationship with the UK.
The only question is how long it takes them to realise this.
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
And, we will - where our interests align.
The UK has a special relationship with the USA, very much as the junior partner. But, that isn't built on total obedience and, if it was, we wouldn't have a special relationship.
We really only have a special relationship in the minds of some British politicians who use it as an excuse to suck up to Washington. The USA has a close relationship with us on security matters, but then it also does with a small number of key allies, but it always has been "America first" long before the Trump era. Our "special relationship" means jackshit when it comes to most matters. Genuine patriots should be embarrassed by how UK politicians desperately want to be seen as "bestest friend" with a foreign power.
I sort of agree with that at a State level.
But having been a diplomat, I can certainly attest that, at a personal level, there was a level of mutual confidence and trust between that British and US delegations that one only sees elsewhere in the US/Israel relationship. It is true that I have not been an active diplomat in 25 years, but as a Brit, I still get access and a hearing in US government circles that I think would be afforded to non-US citizens of few other countries.
Of course, as the primary hegemonist power, every country's relationship with the US is its special relationship. China (and Russia?) is the only country moving to the point where that is not automatically true.
Unless the boffins really find some surprising evidence of lethal side-effects - which is theoretically possible, but given the UK real-life experience, highly unlikely - then at some stage the EMA, Brussels, Berlin, Paris, Rome, Macron, all of them, are going to have to walk back this process.
ie they will have to turn around and say Actually it's OK, the three week pause in vaccination was pointless, it's all safe, let's start again.
That will leave them with voters who are either very angry or very confused, or both. And lots more anti-vaxxers.
They haven't thought this through, to put it politely
The EMA have said nothing so far other than "keep calm and carry on" wrt the vaccine. It's the national regulators that have gone a bit mental.
Chocolate retailer Thorntons has announced plans to permanently shut all its 61 stores with 603 jobs impacted in the latest blow to Britain's hard-hit high streets.
I really hope this doesn't spill over into anti-AZ sentiment in the UK. Sadly, I suspect its impact within the relevant EU countries is inevitable (that is, assuming vaccinations are allowed to continue).
I think that it will if anything strengthen the appetite for AZN in the UK.
I am one of those Remainer-types scratching their heads in disbelief at all this.
Yes separate out the facts - the EMA has said AZN is good to go, it is the national agencies doing the stalling...everyone has the right to make a scientific call of the type done routinely usually wrt vaccines...EU govts (note not The EU) are possibly mulling class action type lawsuits if they are wrong - but it really is unbefuckinglievable.
For me the critical moment was the EU and yes it was the EU threatening to impose a border in NI having spent the past four years stating, correctly, how unacceptable that would be.
Some excellent points, as ever - but again, written at such length it loses impact. A shame.
I see you haven't entirely escaped the malign influence of Twitter. In this case on your attention span.
Possibly some truth in that. In fact I believe this is scientifically proven: human attention spans have shortened with the advent of the Net.
On the other hand lockdown has got me back reading long books, day in day out, a good habit I had lost.
I just don't want to read long books on PB.
Long books? Try "Underworld" by Don DeLillo. Post-war USA in the form of an 800-page novel. Nearly finished it, and will feel bereft when I have. Utterly compelling. Starts with an extraordinary evocation of the 1951 baseball match when Bobby Thomson hit the "shot that was heard round the world." Tremendous vignettes featuring the likes of J Edgar Hoover and Lenny Bruce. Reading it is the best thing I've done since lockdown commenced - along with discovering Miles Davis (and me a confirmed jazz-hater, or so I thought).
The edition of Underworld I was reading in 2001 had on the cover a monocrome picture of the the World Trade Centre towering over the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church on Cedar Street. I was in the middle of reading it when 9/11 happened. It is still on my bookshelf, the Waterstones receipt marking where I stopped reading it at the end of my Tube journed on the morning of 9/11 nearly 20 years ago. I have not been able to pick it up since
It looks to me like a £10-20k facelift job you'd do over the weekend for a conference to me.
I really hope nothing comes out linking this Russian contracting firm (WTF?) to a Conservative Party donor. One thing that really stinks about this administration is its naked chumocracy, bordering on low-level corruption at times.
It shames the UK, and is my biggest reservation in actively supporting them.
Unless the boffins really find some surprising evidence of lethal side-effects - which is theoretically possible, but given the UK real-life experience, highly unlikely - then at some stage the EMA, Brussels, Berlin, Paris, Rome, Macron, all of them, are going to have to walk back this process.
ie they will have to turn around and say Actually it's OK, the three week pause in vaccination was pointless, it's all safe, let's start again.
That will leave them with voters who are either very angry or very confused, or both. And lots more anti-vaxxers.
They haven't thought this through, to put it politely
It will leave them with somebody - probably on social media rather than their supine press - making detailed calculations how many people they have killed. I just don't see what arguments they have to explain why the have acted as they have (that isn't the truth - a hissy fit about the UK getting one over the EU).
Thus it spreads.
Indonesia has halted Astra Zeneca
We are potentially witnessing something monumentally bad
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
And, we will - where our interests align.
The UK has a special relationship with the USA, very much as the junior partner. But, that isn't built on total obedience and, if it was, we wouldn't have a special relationship.
We really only have a special relationship in the minds of some British politicians who use it as an excuse to suck up to Washington. The USA has a close relationship with us on security matters, but then it also does with a small number of key allies, but it always has been "America first" long before the Trump era. Our "special relationship" means jackshit when it comes to most matters. Genuine patriots should be embarrassed by how UK politicians desperately want to be seen as "bestest friend" with a foreign power.
Our security, defence and foreign policy co-operation with the USA is unprecedented, and our influence understated - I could list examples with Thatcher and Reagan in the Cold War, Thatcher over Bush over Iraq, Blair over Clinton in Kosovo, Blair and W Bush in Iraq, and Cameron over Obama in Libya. Boris is now pushing the D10 idea with Biden.
The days of America being able to successfully act solo in the world are gone.
Good examples, particularly the first one. The last one I will believe it if I see it. Johnson is still seen as a massive joke the other side of the pond, partic by Democrats, and quite rightly so.
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
And, we will - where our interests align.
The UK has a special relationship with the USA, very much as the junior partner. But, that isn't built on total obedience and, if it was, we wouldn't have a special relationship.
We really only have a special relationship in the minds of some British politicians who use it as an excuse to suck up to Washington. The USA has a close relationship with us on security matters, but then it also does with a small number of key allies, but it always has been "America first" long before the Trump era. Our "special relationship" means jackshit when it comes to most matters. Genuine patriots should be embarrassed by how UK politicians desperately want to be seen as "bestest friend" with a foreign power.
Our security, defence and foreign policy co-operation with the USA is unprecedented, and our influence understated - I could list examples with Thatcher and Reagan in the Cold War, Thatcher over Bush over Iraq, Blair over Clinton in Kosovo, Blair and W Bush in Iraq, and Cameron over Obama in Libya. Boris is now pushing the D10 idea with Biden.
The days of America being able to successfully act solo in the world are gone.
That's an interesting concept. America as no longer the sole superpower meaning the Special Relationship might see some revival. Do you think Brexit strengthens or diminishes the prospects for that revival?
Jedward, bless em, seem to have joined the brigade of blue ticks posting nonsense for likes and retweets. Mind you, as Irishmen, they have no reason to like Churchill.
Regarding things that 'have no place in our society' I fear they may be projecting.
I am sorry to say I had never heard of Jedward, but to a lot of Tory voters, however unfairly, Jedward comes across as the sorts of people (are there two of them in the picture?) who might at a pinch support Labour. Perhaps someone can tell me who they are.
Well. For a start they are Irish m'lud.
I think they escaped from a TV talent show, and specialise in hairdos that get impaled on doorframes.
I suspect that I'm not the only Remainer who is deeply saddened and shocked by the antics of our continental friends over the past weeks.
That said, I respect that many Leavers will also be saddened and shocked by it.
In a weird way, the vax programme has done more to unite Leavers and Remainers in the UK than any politician has achieved. Funny old world.
Ditto. I'm a Leaver, and I confess, at first, I took some naughty pleasure in the EU comprehensively custard-pieing itself, again and again. The sudden imposition of a new Irish border, without asking Ireland, was my favourite moment. It was impossible not to feel schadenfreude after so many years of the EU, and its Remainer allies, sneering at UK incompetence (often justifiably, if somewhat overdone).
However this is now way beyond that. I am a European, this is my continent and my civilisation, I have friends, family and many acquaintances across the Channel. The ludicrous behaviour by Brussels and EU capitals endangers their lives, endangers economies, menaces future UK/EU relations (and EU relations elsewhere: see Australia), it also weakens the West - further and again - at a crucial time.
So now I just feel sadness. And alarm.
it's like seeing a respected if slightly irritating relative take up Ketamine and develop incontinence. I also wonder if this is how Britain looked, during the peak chaos of Brexit.
It reveals some very deep problems with the political culture. The EU risks turning itself into a parody of the things Brexiteers said it was.
So, William. You were an arch Remainer IIRC. Yet now your posts are (all credit to you) very critical of the EU. When did the picture start changing for you?
Genuine question, not trying to make snide points scoring.
Before the vaccine debacle, my thinking on world order had evolved and made me more sceptical of role of the EU in the global system. Also I find the conflation of the EU with Europe increasingly annoying. The UK didn't become less European on January 1st.
Finally, seeing Ursula von der Leyen and Charles Michel use base populist tactics to absolve the EU of any responsibility for failures in vaccine procurement completely undermines any trust in the institutions.
All credit to you. Perhaps the most dramatic conversion that has been shared on pb.com.
Well, until Scott_P goes out leafletting for Boris.
It looks to me like a £10-20k facelift job you'd do over the weekend for a conference to me.
I really hope nothing comes out linking this Russian contracting firm (WTF?) to a Conservative Party donor. One thing that really stinks about this administration is its naked chumocracy, bordering on low-level corruption at times.
It shames the UK, and is my biggest reservation in actively supporting them.
It won't be long until someone has FOI'd the invoices.
The excellent Stephanie Flanders on why Brexit is ruining our economy and why notions of replacing the EU with the USA is ridiculous. We'd need at least four USA's
I suspect that I'm not the only Remainer who is deeply saddened and shocked by the antics of our continental friends over the past weeks.
That said, I respect that many Leavers will also be saddened and shocked by it.
In a weird way, the vax programme has done more to unite Leavers and Remainers in the UK than any politician has achieved. Funny old world.
Ditto. I'm a Leaver, and I confess, at first, I took some naughty pleasure in the EU comprehensively custard-pieing itself, again and again. The sudden imposition of a new Irish border, without asking Ireland, was my favourite moment. It was impossible not to feel schadenfreude after so many years of the EU, and its Remainer allies, sneering at UK incompetence (often justifiably, if somewhat overdone).
However this is now way beyond that. I am a European, this is my continent and my civilisation, I have friends, family and many acquaintances across the Channel. The ludicrous behaviour by Brussels and EU capitals endangers their lives, endangers economies, menaces future UK/EU relations (and EU relations elsewhere: see Australia), it also weakens the West - further and again - at a crucial time.
So now I just feel sadness. And alarm.
it's like seeing a respected if slightly irritating relative take up Ketamine and develop incontinence. I also wonder if this is how Britain looked, during the peak chaos of Brexit.
It reveals some very deep problems with the political culture. The EU risks turning itself into a parody of the things Brexiteers said it was.
So, William. You were an arch Remainer IIRC. Yet now your posts are (all credit to you) very critical of the EU. When did the picture start changing for you?
Genuine question, not trying to make snide points scoring.
Before the vaccine debacle, my thinking on world order had evolved and made me more sceptical of role of the EU in the global system. Also I find the conflation of the EU with Europe increasingly annoying. The UK didn't become less European on January 1st.
Finally, seeing Ursula von der Leyen and Charles Michel use base populist tactics to absolve the EU of any responsibility for failures in vaccine procurement completely undermines any trust in the institutions.
All credit to you. Perhaps the most dramatic conversion that has been shared on pb.com.
Well, until Scott_P goes out leafletting for Boris.
@Dura_Ace trades everything in for a Dacia Duster?
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
And, we will - where our interests align.
The UK has a special relationship with the USA, very much as the junior partner. But, that isn't built on total obedience and, if it was, we wouldn't have a special relationship.
We really only have a special relationship in the minds of some British politicians who use it as an excuse to suck up to Washington. The USA has a close relationship with us on security matters, but then it also does with a small number of key allies, but it always has been "America first" long before the Trump era. Our "special relationship" means jackshit when it comes to most matters. Genuine patriots should be embarrassed by how UK politicians desperately want to be seen as "bestest friend" with a foreign power.
Our security, defence and foreign policy co-operation with the USA is unprecedented, and our influence understated - I could list examples with Thatcher and Reagan in the Cold War, Thatcher over Bush over Iraq, Blair over Clinton in Kosovo, Blair and W Bush in Iraq, and Cameron over Obama in Libya. Boris is now pushing the D10 idea with Biden.
The days of America being able to successfully act solo in the world are gone.
That's an interesting concept. America as no longer the sole superpower meaning the Special Relationship might see some revival. Do you think Brexit strengthens or diminishes the prospects for that revival?
I think given that the future of the US is in APAC, not Europe, being out of the EU might help strengthen the relationship because the UK won't have any EU considerations to take into account when acting against China. We've already seen a huge divergence from the EU in our policies on China.
Sigh. My wife has been having a problem with a kidney stone. She has just been told to come into hospital tonight so they can operate tomorrow. She was due to finally get her vaccination on Thursday. Roughly 2/3 of all Scottish infections have come through hospitals.
At 60 she really should have been vaccinated weeks ago so that she would have some protection. I am not happy. Not at all.
Unless the boffins really find some surprising evidence of lethal side-effects - which is theoretically possible, but given the UK real-life experience, highly unlikely - then at some stage the EMA, Brussels, Berlin, Paris, Rome, Macron, all of them, are going to have to walk back this process.
ie they will have to turn around and say Actually it's OK, the three week pause in vaccination was pointless, it's all safe, let's start again.
That will leave them with voters who are either very angry or very confused, or both. And lots more anti-vaxxers.
They haven't thought this through, to put it politely
It will leave them with somebody - probably on social media rather than their supine press - making detailed calculations how many people they have killed. I just don't see what arguments they have to explain why the have acted as they have (that isn't the truth - a hissy fit about the UK getting one over the EU).
Thus it spreads.
Indonesia has halted Astra Zeneca
We are potentially witnessing something monumentally bad
Unless the boffins really find some surprising evidence of lethal side-effects - which is theoretically possible, but given the UK real-life experience, highly unlikely - then at some stage the EMA, Brussels, Berlin, Paris, Rome, Macron, all of them, are going to have to walk back this process.
ie they will have to turn around and say Actually it's OK, the three week pause in vaccination was pointless, it's all safe, let's start again.
That will leave them with voters who are either very angry or very confused, or both. And lots more anti-vaxxers.
They haven't thought this through, to put it politely
It will leave them with somebody - probably on social media rather than their supine press - making detailed calculations how many people they have killed. I just don't see what arguments they have to explain why the have acted as they have (that isn't the truth - a hissy fit about the UK getting one over the EU).
Thus it spreads.
Indonesia has halted Astra Zeneca
We are potentially witnessing something monumentally bad
Oh my effing god, this vax hysteria in continental Europe is actually unbelievable. It's like someone has made the whole thing up as a global exercise in fake news.
Yet it appears to be true.
I've yet to understand what they think is happening in the UK, with over 10m having had the AZ jab, and why that is irrelevant to their judging of the risk.
EMA set to report on the clotting situation tomorrow afternoon. Assuming they say it's fine, it shouldn't take long to redistribute the delayed vaccines:
(And remember kids, the boring Euro technocrats have been fine with O-AZ from a safety/efficacy point of view. All the squarks have come from national politicians.)
I really hope this doesn't spill over into anti-AZ sentiment in the UK. Sadly, I suspect its impact within the relevant EU countries is inevitable (that is, assuming vaccinations are allowed to continue).
I think that it will if anything strengthen the appetite for AZN in the UK.
I am one of those Remainer-types scratching their heads in disbelief at all this.
Yes separate out the facts - the EMA has said AZN is good to go, it is the national agencies doing the stalling...everyone has the right to make a scientific call of the type done routinely usually wrt vaccines...EU govts (note not The EU) are possibly mulling class action type lawsuits if they are wrong - but it really is unbefuckinglievable.
For me the critical moment was the EU and yes it was the EU threatening to impose a border in NI having spent the past four years accepting how unacceptable that would be.
There's no solution to NI that doesn't involve both the UK and the Irish Republic taking up some of the slack. The reality is there's a NI unionist community that voted for Brexit and wants alignment with the UK, and a nationalist NI community that voted Remain and wants alignment with Ireland.
The GFA worked because both the UK and Ireland were in the EU at the time. Now one is not you can't just pick a side and still expect it to stick.
So that means some level of border in the Irish Sea (GB/NI) but also a special status for the island of Ireland within the EU single market too to facilitate ease of trade within the British Isles.
EMA set to report on the clotting situation tomorrow afternoon. Assuming they say it's fine, it shouldn't take long to redistribute the delayed vaccines:
(And remember kids, the boring Euro technocrats have been fine with O-AZ from a safety/efficacy point of view. All the squarks have come from national politicians.)
Oh my effing god, this vax hysteria in continental Europe is actually unbelievable. It's like someone has made the whole thing up as a global exercise in fake news.
Yet it appears to be true.
I've yet to understand what they think is happening in the UK, with over 10m having had the AZ jab, and why that is irrelevant to their judging of the risk.
The UK is the country that must not be named. There was a soul-searching article in one of the German papers this weekend comparing the success of the US on vaccines with the EU, with not a mention of Britain.
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
Thanks. So we started the AZN vaccine when? A few weeks ago. So in the zone for an uptick of blood clot cases.
Sigh. My wife has been having a problem with a kidney stone. She has just been told to come into hospital tonight so they can operate tomorrow. She was due to finally get her vaccination on Thursday. Roughly 2/3 of all Scottish infections have come through hospitals.
At 60 she really should have been vaccinated weeks ago so that she would have some protection. I am not happy. Not at all.
That must be very frustrating. Best of luck to you both.
I suspect that I'm not the only Remainer who is deeply saddened and shocked by the antics of our continental friends over the past weeks.
That said, I respect that many Leavers will also be saddened and shocked by it.
In a weird way, the vax programme has done more to unite Leavers and Remainers in the UK than any politician has achieved. Funny old world.
I agree that the way the EU has performed hasn't been good. However, I remain convinced that Britain won't have much of a further outside. What we've done by Leaving to throw away our chance of Leading!
Guys, I know you're all getting excited, and I agree that this is a major clusterfuck which will cost many lives, but it isn't actually anything to do with the EU. The EMA is the body being sensible here. It is individual states, some in the EU but some outside the EU, who are acting irrationally. And it's mostly not politicians, either.
Richard, you're not an idiot. Why is the EU as a whole, ie all of its most important states, picking on AZ, which is made not-for-profit by an Anglo-Swedish company, yet ignoring half-German Pfizer entirely? There is tiny evidence of nasty side effects with both vaccines, unconvincing yet it exists.
But only AZ is attacked, suspended, seized, impounded and smeared.
You really expect us to believe this has NOTHING to do with the EU's huge falling out with AZ a month back (which they tried to turn into a EU/UK battle, but we refused to give them the pleasure)? Really? You're honestly expecting us to believe that?
Your commentary on EU matters has gone from biased but well informed to biased and a bit stupid.
No, I'm not an idiot. That's why I know that Norway, Iceland and Indonesia aren't in the EU, a point which seems to have been missed by most people posting here.
You were right downthread when you said this is a collective hysteria spreading, mainly in Europe. Such collective hysterias have happened before.
Of course, I agree that the brain-dead dissing of the AZ vaccine earlier, especially by Macron but also by other EU politicians trying to shift blame for their own failings, has contributed to this panic. So, no, I don't think this has nothing to do with the EU.
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
Thanks. So we started the AZN vaccine when? A few weeks ago. So in the zone for an uptick of blood clot cases.
AZN have been going in arms for 11 weeks now in the UK.
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
Thanks. So we started the AZN vaccine when? A few weeks ago. So in the zone for an uptick of blood clot cases.
A lot longer than a few weeks. And the same occurrence rate was seen for recipients of the Pfizer vaccine, and not at a rate higher than you would expect.
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
Thanks. So we started the AZN vaccine when? A few weeks ago. So in the zone for an uptick of blood clot cases.
Incredibly it's been 11 weeks since we started the AZ programme!
This feels like a kind of co-ordinated madness, or an organised hysteria. Like someone very cleverly and carefully setting themselves on fire.
This may be more an issue with the structure of the Italian justice system.
They have very independent.. investigating judges? Is that a good description.
This means that for hunting down the truth with corrupt governments, something happens.
The flip side is that maverick judges can really, really do some crazy shit.
Formula 1 came very close to boycotting Italy, after the death of Ayrton Senna in 1994.
They had to get assurances from a very high level in the government, that team members and organising officials wouldn’t be arrested at the border the following year, as the magistrate’s investigation into the accident was demanding.
I suspect that I'm not the only Remainer who is deeply saddened and shocked by the antics of our continental friends over the past weeks.
That said, I respect that many Leavers will also be saddened and shocked by it.
In a weird way, the vax programme has done more to unite Leavers and Remainers in the UK than any politician has achieved. Funny old world.
I agree that the way the EU has performed hasn't been good. However, I remain convinced that Britain won't have much of a further outside. What we've done by Leaving to throw away our chance of Leading!
The idea of the UK "leading" the EU to reform is as much a unicorn as Brexit being all sunny uplands. There are 27 other nations in the EU and the UK opinion of what the EU is all about has been a minority for view for many years now. Now with so many other countries, you aren't going to get anywhere when you are asking to go against the tide and the vested interests.
The decision was always we leave or we we stay in with the knowledge we are on the ever closer union bus. There was no status quo or reform against the direction of travel option. Its both political and economic reality, it is much more efficient for most EU countries to be very closely aligned, while also providing them a protectionist block against the world.
The UK and Germany are probably the only two countries in the EU who could make it work going alone, but that doesn't mean it is the superior option.
I suspect that I'm not the only Remainer who is deeply saddened and shocked by the antics of our continental friends over the past weeks.
That said, I respect that many Leavers will also be saddened and shocked by it.
In a weird way, the vax programme has done more to unite Leavers and Remainers in the UK than any politician has achieved. Funny old world.
Ditto. I'm a Leaver, and I confess, at first, I took some naughty pleasure in the EU comprehensively custard-pieing itself, again and again. The sudden imposition of a new Irish border, without asking Ireland, was my favourite moment. It was impossible not to feel schadenfreude after so many years of the EU, and its Remainer allies, sneering at UK incompetence (often justifiably, if somewhat overdone).
However this is now way beyond that. I am a European, this is my continent and my civilisation, I have friends, family and many acquaintances across the Channel. The ludicrous behaviour by Brussels and EU capitals endangers their lives, endangers economies, menaces future UK/EU relations (and EU relations elsewhere: see Australia), it also weakens the West - further and again - at a crucial time.
So now I just feel sadness. And alarm.
it's like seeing a respected if slightly irritating relative take up Ketamine and develop incontinence. I also wonder if this is how Britain looked, during the peak chaos of Brexit.
It reveals some very deep problems with the political culture. The EU risks turning itself into a parody of the things Brexiteers said it was.
So, William. You were an arch Remainer IIRC. Yet now your posts are (all credit to you) very critical of the EU. When did the picture start changing for you?
Genuine question, not trying to make snide points scoring.
Before the vaccine debacle, my thinking on world order had evolved and made me more sceptical of role of the EU in the global system. Also I find the conflation of the EU with Europe increasingly annoying. The UK didn't become less European on January 1st.
Finally, seeing Ursula von der Leyen and Charles Michel use base populist tactics to absolve the EU of any responsibility for failures in vaccine procurement completely undermines any trust in the institutions.
All credit to you. Perhaps the most dramatic conversion that has been shared on pb.com.
Well, until Scott_P goes out leafletting for Boris.
@Dura_Ace trades everything in for a Dacia Duster?
I'd hope after references to his booty locker that he'd get several, maybe one at top spec.
Not that it necessarily proves anything but I believe James May is a Dacia fan?
Oh my effing god, this vax hysteria in continental Europe is actually unbelievable. It's like someone has made the whole thing up as a global exercise in fake news.
Yet it appears to be true.
I've yet to understand what they think is happening in the UK, with over 10m having had the AZ jab, and why that is irrelevant to their judging of the risk.
Separate supply chain, remember? I'm not saying that is what has happened (my hope and expectation is that it's a false alarm) but an issue in one factory is a plausible mechanism for problems in one place but not another.
EMA set to report on the clotting situation tomorrow afternoon. Assuming they say it's fine, it shouldn't take long to redistribute the delayed vaccines:
(And remember kids, the boring Euro technocrats have been fine with O-AZ from a safety/efficacy point of view. All the squarks have come from national politicians.)
(But the general principle- someone in Denmark(?) pressed the alarm button, it's being checked- still applies. Not everything is about Britain.)
The issue is this is like someone panicking on an aeroplane over nothing, and causing (a) that plane to turn back and land, and all other planes to stop flying. The weight of evidence that AZ is safe is huge, not just from the UK. But now we have countries halting a life saving vaccination programme (the AZ part at least) based on some reports from one or two countries, that are at lower than the normal population rates. I could understand it if we had suddenly seen 1000 deaths, each the day after vaccination, but this is not the case. Don't pause the programme - look at the evidence in front of your eyes.
Oh my effing god, this vax hysteria in continental Europe is actually unbelievable. It's like someone has made the whole thing up as a global exercise in fake news.
Yet it appears to be true.
I've yet to understand what they think is happening in the UK, with over 10m having had the AZ jab, and why that is irrelevant to their judging of the risk.
The UK is the country that must not be named. There was a soul-searching article in one of the German papers this weekend comparing the success of the US on vaccines with the EU, with not a mention of Britain.
Yes, even the original Spiegel article lamenting EU vaccine procurement compared it to the US and the UK just got a passing mention, that was before all of this as well.
I fear that over the next few weeks as the UK programme really speeds up the bitterness and acrimony is going to increase.
I suspect that I'm not the only Remainer who is deeply saddened and shocked by the antics of our continental friends over the past weeks.
That said, I respect that many Leavers will also be saddened and shocked by it.
In a weird way, the vax programme has done more to unite Leavers and Remainers in the UK than any politician has achieved. Funny old world.
Ditto. I'm a Leaver, and I confess, at first, I took some naughty pleasure in the EU comprehensively custard-pieing itself, again and again. The sudden imposition of a new Irish border, without asking Ireland, was my favourite moment. It was impossible not to feel schadenfreude after so many years of the EU, and its Remainer allies, sneering at UK incompetence (often justifiably, if somewhat overdone).
However this is now way beyond that. I am a European, this is my continent and my civilisation, I have friends, family and many acquaintances across the Channel. The ludicrous behaviour by Brussels and EU capitals endangers their lives, endangers economies, menaces future UK/EU relations (and EU relations elsewhere: see Australia), it also weakens the West - further and again - at a crucial time.
So now I just feel sadness. And alarm.
it's like seeing a respected if slightly irritating relative take up Ketamine and develop incontinence. I also wonder if this is how Britain looked, during the peak chaos of Brexit.
It reveals some very deep problems with the political culture. The EU risks turning itself into a parody of the things Brexiteers said it was.
So, William. You were an arch Remainer IIRC. Yet now your posts are (all credit to you) very critical of the EU. When did the picture start changing for you?
Genuine question, not trying to make snide points scoring.
Before the vaccine debacle, my thinking on world order had evolved and made me more sceptical of role of the EU in the global system. Also I find the conflation of the EU with Europe increasingly annoying. The UK didn't become less European on January 1st.
Finally, seeing Ursula von der Leyen and Charles Michel use base populist tactics to absolve the EU of any responsibility for failures in vaccine procurement completely undermines any trust in the institutions.
All credit to you. Perhaps the most dramatic conversion that has been shared on pb.com.
Well, until Scott_P goes out leafletting for Boris.
Yes, I've always liked William because he's intelligent, interesting, always polite and, often, very funny. At times, I though he was tautological and dogmatic but I always thought that might be because he was harbouring a secret doubt, as George Smiley once said.
FWIW, I think William still has a genuine passion for a Europe, and for pan-European intergovernmental governance, it's just he's become disillusioned with the present EU.
It's a lesson that they shouldn't take their present supporters for granted. I don't know if they'll heed it.
Other than us, how many developed countries - outside of the EU - are actually using AstraZeneca today?
I can think of one: Canada.
Who else?
Is everyone in BioNTech's pocket?
They do have super, duper, humungously deep pockets.
Also, excluding the UK and EU from "developed" countries doesn't leave all that many. It's really just the US, Australia, NZ, Japan and S Korea who aren't. The latter three don't have anything like as much of a pressing need as most of the EU - and the US has lots of home grown options.
And yet the real world data from the UK is absolutely first rate, the issue here is absolutely a political one rather than medical. Politicians of Europe have decided that AZ delivering to Brexit Britain as a priority and not the EU is beyond the pale and are now trying to "suffocate" AZ and it's business. Obviously it's not going to work because there isn't anything wrong with the vaccine and all they're really doing is harming their own people and economies. Still, it's about what I've come to expect from them.
If all they were doing was harming their own, it wouldn’t be quite so bad.
They’re also badly undermining Covax and the global effort to get the world vaccinated, thus prolonging the pandemic everywhere by months if not years, at a cost of millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
I don't know if it will have any real effect. So far there doesn't seem to be any uptick in vaccine hesitancy outside of Europe. One thing about the majority of European media not being in English is that the stories don't spread as quickly or widely in Africa and Asia, it's an inbuilt firewall against this stuff. I also think having the Oxford University name attached to it as well as continued unquestioning support from the WHO will ultimately be worth more than what's happening in Europe.
I think most people look at the shitfest in Europe and recognise it as something isolated to the EU.
I'm slightly worried that it might somehow spill over and affect the COVAX rollout. The EU has been desperately trying to claim the credit for it, with their diplomats even suggesting that AZ vaccines delivered from South Korea had come from the EU. It's scandalous.
Honestly, I just find it all a bit sad. This all stems from the EU continuing to act like a jilted ex. As I said yesterday, a few weeks ago I heard rumours that the EU had effectively threatened to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK joined the CPTPP, I didn't believe it at the time as it just seemed ridiculous. Now I'm inclined to believe it. All of their actions are driven by their absolute refusal to accept the the UK has left and is now acting completely independently of them. The unnecessary border pedantry, the inability to accept that the UK contract with AZ is written better than the EU one, the threats over financial equivalence despite the UK having stronger financial regulations than what is required under equivalence rules.
I'd now say it's odds on that the EU is taking their grievances against the UK outside of Europe and giving countries a "them or us" choice.
I think the EU would rather bend over backwards for the devil than try and accommodate the UK.
Indeed. One of the reasons I've reversed my position on this is because one of our guys who deals with EU based investment and has got very, very good political sources in Europe said that the people he knows are shocked that the UK isn't co-ordinating anything except the TCA with the EU and is instead acting completely independently of them. They expected the UK to continue to co-operate with the EU for external trade and to side with the EU at the WTO, UN and other international organisations automatically. That we haven't done those things has been a really, really big shock to the system for them and he says it's ramped up their jilted ex feelings more than before.
And, we will - where our interests align.
The UK has a special relationship with the USA, very much as the junior partner. But, that isn't built on total obedience and, if it was, we wouldn't have a special relationship.
We really only have a special relationship in the minds of some British politicians who use it as an excuse to suck up to Washington. The USA has a close relationship with us on security matters, but then it also does with a small number of key allies, but it always has been "America first" long before the Trump era. Our "special relationship" means jackshit when it comes to most matters. Genuine patriots should be embarrassed by how UK politicians desperately want to be seen as "bestest friend" with a foreign power.
Our security, defence and foreign policy co-operation with the USA is unprecedented, and our influence understated - I could list examples with Thatcher and Reagan in the Cold War, Thatcher over Bush over Iraq, Blair over Clinton in Kosovo, Blair and W Bush in Iraq, and Cameron over Obama in Libya. Boris is now pushing the D10 idea with Biden.
The days of America being able to successfully act solo in the world are gone.
Good examples, particularly the first one. The last one I will believe it if I see it. Johnson is still seen as a massive joke the other side of the pond, partic by Democrats, and quite rightly so.
Is there any actual American opinion polling re: Boris Johnson's name ID & fav/unfav?
My own guess is that most Americans do NOT know who he is, or have only the vaguest idea. He's higher profile than Brown, Cameron or May, but WAY behind Blair, Thatcher and even (I think) Major.
AND some of us in US who DO know of BJ, believe his main claim to fame is being Benny Hill's love child . . .
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
Thanks. So we started the AZN vaccine when? A few weeks ago. So in the zone for an uptick of blood clot cases.
Started in January. It would be evident by now - its not.
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
Thanks. So we started the AZN vaccine when? A few weeks ago. So in the zone for an uptick of blood clot cases.
I think AZ came into use in late December or early January. Regardless, it has been deployed on a massive scale for several months. The UK regulators have reassured us that, if there were anything to the blood clot panic, the signal would've shown up in what amounts to the world's biggest field trial of this vaccine, i.e. our rollout. They have said that no such evidence exists and I believe them.
Still, if there are spare doses going, I'm sure we can find arms to stick them into. That would give them a few million extra data points as well, so it's a win-win.
Spain will stop using AstraZeneca’s Covid vaccine for at least 15 days, Cadena Ser radio reported on Monday, citing unnamed sources.
Health minister was due to provide an update later on Monday, as a growing list of countries stop administering the shot amid concerns of severe side effects, Reuters reports. The health ministry declined to comment.
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
Thanks. So we started the AZN vaccine when? A few weeks ago. So in the zone for an uptick of blood clot cases.
A lot longer than a few weeks. And the same occurrence rate was seen for recipients of the Pfizer vaccine, and not at a rate higher than you would expect.
Thanks. And @FrancisUrquhart and @MaxPB doesn't time fly when you're doing literally fuck all stuck at home.
I suspect that I'm not the only Remainer who is deeply saddened and shocked by the antics of our continental friends over the past weeks.
That said, I respect that many Leavers will also be saddened and shocked by it.
In a weird way, the vax programme has done more to unite Leavers and Remainers in the UK than any politician has achieved. Funny old world.
Ditto. I'm a Leaver, and I confess, at first, I took some naughty pleasure in the EU comprehensively custard-pieing itself, again and again. The sudden imposition of a new Irish border, without asking Ireland, was my favourite moment. It was impossible not to feel schadenfreude after so many years of the EU, and its Remainer allies, sneering at UK incompetence (often justifiably, if somewhat overdone).
However this is now way beyond that. I am a European, this is my continent and my civilisation, I have friends, family and many acquaintances across the Channel. The ludicrous behaviour by Brussels and EU capitals endangers their lives, endangers economies, menaces future UK/EU relations (and EU relations elsewhere: see Australia), it also weakens the West - further and again - at a crucial time.
So now I just feel sadness. And alarm.
it's like seeing a respected if slightly irritating relative take up Ketamine and develop incontinence. I also wonder if this is how Britain looked, during the peak chaos of Brexit.
It reveals some very deep problems with the political culture. The EU risks turning itself into a parody of the things Brexiteers said it was.
So, William. You were an arch Remainer IIRC. Yet now your posts are (all credit to you) very critical of the EU. When did the picture start changing for you?
Genuine question, not trying to make snide points scoring.
Before the vaccine debacle, my thinking on world order had evolved and made me more sceptical of role of the EU in the global system. Also I find the conflation of the EU with Europe increasingly annoying. The UK didn't become less European on January 1st.
Finally, seeing Ursula von der Leyen and Charles Michel use base populist tactics to absolve the EU of any responsibility for failures in vaccine procurement completely undermines any trust in the institutions.
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
Thanks. So we started the AZN vaccine when? A few weeks ago. So in the zone for an uptick of blood clot cases.
A lot longer than a few weeks. And the same occurrence rate was seen for recipients of the Pfizer vaccine, and not at a rate higher than you would expect.
Thanks. And @FrancisUrquhart and @MaxPB doesn't time fly when you're doing literally fuck all stuck at home.
Past 11 weeks have been a blurred for me, too busy working on a project.
Sigh. My wife has been having a problem with a kidney stone. She has just been told to come into hospital tonight so they can operate tomorrow. She was due to finally get her vaccination on Thursday. Roughly 2/3 of all Scottish infections have come through hospitals.
At 60 she really should have been vaccinated weeks ago so that she would have some protection. I am not happy. Not at all.
Commiserations to the good lady on the kidney stone. Trust me, she won't be giving a shiny shit about anything other than getting rid of it. Bastard painful things.
She's been down this road before many times unfortunately. Son started back at school today too so no risk there! Life comes at you fast sometimes.
Jedward, bless em, seem to have joined the brigade of blue ticks posting nonsense for likes and retweets. Mind you, as Irishmen, they have no reason to like Churchill.
Regarding things that 'have no place in our society' I fear they may be projecting.
I am sorry to say I had never heard of Jedward, but to a lot of Tory voters, however unfairly, Jedward comes across as the sorts of people (are there two of them in the picture?) who might at a pinch support Labour. Perhaps someone can tell me who they are.
Well. For a start they are Irish m'lud.
They possibly blame Churchill for the death of Roger Casement, and one or two other Fenian bits and pieces. But it would have been nice if their Irish forebears had done their little bit against fascism when Churchill was on the go....
I was idly wondering if that pool of dead voters in NI maintained by both sides have also retained their NHS number? If so, there's going to be a good bit of cross-border jabbing too...
“I think it is possible that there is an association,” James Bussel, MD, a hematologist and professor emeritus at Weill Cornell Medicine told The New York Times. “I’m assuming there’s something that made the people who developed thrombocytopenia susceptible, given what a tiny percentage of recipients they are.” He added, “Having it happen after a vaccine is well-known and has been seen with many other vaccines. Why it happens, we don’t know.”
U.S. Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention officials said they were investigating the reports, but that the rates of ITP in vaccinated patients did not appear higher than that of the general U.S. population. The vaccine is considered safe overall, and the cases of ITP could be coincidental...
Just out of interest wrt AZN/blood clots - what is the timing supposed to be? At the clinic? The next morning? Three weeks later?
The various deaths and illnesses that are generating this panic wave have occurred anywhere from a few hours to several weeks after inoculation. In some cases there are what look like (very small) clusters, such as in Norway and Sicily; in others (e.g. Denmark and Bulgaria) I believe they've been spooked by a single patient.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
Thanks. So we started the AZN vaccine when? A few weeks ago. So in the zone for an uptick of blood clot cases.
A lot longer than a few weeks. And the same occurrence rate was seen for recipients of the Pfizer vaccine, and not at a rate higher than you would expect.
Thanks. And @FrancisUrquhart and @MaxPB doesn't time fly when you're doing literally fuck all stuck at home.
Past 11 weeks have been a blurred for me, too busy working on a project.
Yes work notwithstanding but that's it. Work and box sets.
Oh my effing god, this vax hysteria in continental Europe is actually unbelievable. It's like someone has made the whole thing up as a global exercise in fake news.
Yet it appears to be true.
I've yet to understand what they think is happening in the UK, with over 10m having had the AZ jab, and why that is irrelevant to their judging of the risk.
The UK is the country that must not be named. There was a soul-searching article in one of the German papers this weekend comparing the success of the US on vaccines with the EU, with not a mention of Britain.
Yes, even the original Spiegel article lamenting EU vaccine procurement compared it to the US and the UK just got a passing mention, that was before all of this as well.
I fear that over the next few weeks as the UK programme really speeds up the bitterness and acrimony is going to increase.
It has the potential to get very ugly. Italy has slid back into lockdown, the German emergency doctors have started demanding it, and the French curfew may only be slowing their case rate growth down. I suspect that much of Europe is basically going through various stages of which happened to us between November and January.
It's now entirely possible that some EU countries will still be in lockdown in May when most of the restrictions in the UK are scheduled to be binned. I wonder what else apart from Northern Ireland they'll find to pick fresh fights over?
Comments
I don't know why that's not the same for others. Perhaps they need reminding of the scientific method.
Wear the best fucking masks in the world. FFP3 military grade or something
To expect that in return for the very thin deal we negotiated with the EU is unreasonable. (Which is not to say that our self-contradictory position on the NI-UK border/not border is particularly reasonable.)
Yet it appears to be true.
Finally, seeing Ursula von der Leyen and Charles Michel use base populist tactics to absolve the EU of any responsibility for failures in vaccine procurement completely undermines any trust in the institutions.
I really hope this doesn't spill over into anti-AZ sentiment in the UK. Sadly, I suspect its impact within the relevant EU countries is inevitable (that is, assuming vaccinations are allowed to continue).
Is that was Dumas meant when he said 'All for one and one for all'?
Politico.com - A Pro-Trump scam PAC returns with a vengeance
The 45th president may be gone, but the groups making money off of him are not.
President Donald Trump is out of office, but the scammers that used his name to raise money aren’t stopping.
Over the past few weeks, POLITICO has received a number of robocalls from generically named political groups asking for cash in order to help in very Trump-specific missions.
A donation of $100, for example, would help return Trump to Twitter. Or, for a similar amount, a potential donor can “stop Kamala Harris and socialism,” the calls claim. Other calls ask for money to ensure that congressional Democrats don’t dismantle the wall Trump started building along the U.S.-Mexico border.
One of the telemarketers behind the calls, who spoke to a POLITICO reporter on Wednesday, promised that “100 percent of the contributions go directly to President Trump.”
But the calls aren’t being made by Trump’s Save America political action committee. In fact, it’s not entirely clear who’s behind them. The telemarketers on the line said they were volunteers working for the Campaign to Support Republican Leaders, which is not registered with the Federal Election Commission and doesn’t have any online presence. . . .
A POLITICO investigation in 2019 identified Support American Leaders PAC as one of more than a dozen pro-Trump PACs with no actual ties to Trump. Such PACs, sometimes known as scam PACs, have plagued Republicans — and, to a lesser extent, Democrats — for years. . . . .
Trump has been trying to ensure he’s the only one who can use his name to raise money. His team recently sent cease-and-desist letters to the Republican National Committee, the National Republican Senatorial Committee, the National Republican Congressional Committee and other groups demanding they “immediately cease and desist the unauthorized use of President Donald J. Trump’s name, image, and/or likeness in all fundraising, persuasion, and/or issue speech.”
Justin Riemer, the RNC’s chief counsel, responded in a letter to Trump’s lawyer on Monday that the group had every right to refer to public figures such as Trump in its fundraising solicitations. The former president has since backed down from the threat he issued.
Save America has raised more than $31 million in less than two months after Trump’s allies started it. Trump is also reportedly planning to add a super PAC to his post-presidential operation.
Support American Leaders PAC, by contrast, reported raising nearly $2.5 million during the 2020 cycle. Less than $375,000 was spent on ads and voter contact supporting Trump, and none of it went to Trump’s campaign.
Comment - Can only hope that PB Putinists and their ilk, will continue to give generously to the Support American Leaders PAC!
BTW, isn't Nick Farage trying to get an extended booking with the same sort of gravy boat?
Unless the boffins really find some surprising evidence of lethal side-effects - which is theoretically possible, but given the UK real-life experience, highly unlikely - then at some stage the EMA, Brussels, Berlin, Paris, Rome, Macron, all of them, are going to have to walk back this process.
ie they will have to turn around and say Actually it's OK, the three week pause in vaccination was pointless, it's all safe, let's start again.
That will leave them with voters who are either very angry or very confused, or both. And lots more anti-vaxxers.
They haven't thought this through, to put it politely
Red Wall fail. Amateurs.
EMA set to report on the clotting situation tomorrow afternoon. Assuming they say it's fine, it shouldn't take long to redistribute the delayed vaccines:
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210315-france-germany-and-italy-join-other-nations-in-suspending-astrazeneca-vaccine
(And remember kids, the boring Euro technocrats have been fine with O-AZ from a safety/efficacy point of view. All the squarks have come from national politicians.)
There have been plenty of reports from Germany and France where people are saying I won't have that vaccine.
The days of America being able to successfully act solo in the world are gone.
The only question is how long it takes them to realise this.
But having been a diplomat, I can certainly attest that, at a personal level, there was a level of mutual confidence and trust between that British and US delegations that one only sees elsewhere in the US/Israel relationship. It is true that I have not been an active diplomat in 25 years, but as a Brit, I still get access and a hearing in US government circles that I think would be afforded to non-US citizens of few other countries.
Of course, as the primary hegemonist power, every country's relationship with the US is its special relationship. China (and Russia?) is the only country moving to the point where that is not automatically true.
from cases
from hospitalisations
I am one of those Remainer-types scratching their heads in disbelief at all this.
Yes separate out the facts - the EMA has said AZN is good to go, it is the national agencies doing the stalling...everyone has the right to make a scientific call of the type done routinely usually wrt vaccines...EU govts (note not The EU) are possibly mulling class action type lawsuits if they are wrong - but it really is unbefuckinglievable.
For me the critical moment was the EU and yes it was the EU threatening to impose a border in NI having spent the past four years stating, correctly, how unacceptable that would be.
The edition of Underworld I was reading in 2001 had on the cover a monocrome picture of the the World Trade Centre towering over the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church on Cedar Street. I was in the middle of reading it when 9/11 happened. It is still on my bookshelf, the Waterstones receipt marking where I stopped reading it at the end of my Tube journed on the morning of 9/11 nearly 20 years ago. I have not been able to pick it up since
I really hope nothing comes out linking this Russian contracting firm (WTF?) to a Conservative Party donor. One thing that really stinks about this administration is its naked chumocracy, bordering on low-level corruption at times.
It shames the UK, and is my biggest reservation in actively supporting them.
Indonesia has halted Astra Zeneca
We are potentially witnessing something monumentally bad
https://twitter.com/beritastenggara/status/1371507437509898241?s=20
Well, until Scott_P goes out leafletting for Boris.
The response is all over the place too. The French and Italians appear to be waiting for an EMA ruling tomorrow, although the wording of the statement on their website seems to imply that one won't be handed down until Thursday; the Dutch have said they'll stop using AZ for at least two weeks.
It's a total mess.
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/emas-safety-committee-continues-investigation-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-thromboembolic-events
(But the general principle- someone in Denmark(?) pressed the alarm button, it's being checked- still applies. Not everything is about Britain.)
The GFA worked because both the UK and Ireland were in the EU at the time. Now one is not you can't just pick a side and still expect it to stick.
So that means some level of border in the Irish Sea (GB/NI) but also a special status for the island of Ireland within the EU single market too to facilitate ease of trade within the British Isles.
You were right downthread when you said this is a collective hysteria spreading, mainly in Europe. Such collective hysterias have happened before.
Of course, I agree that the brain-dead dissing of the AZ vaccine earlier, especially by Macron but also by other EU politicians trying to shift blame for their own failings, has contributed to this panic. So, no, I don't think this has nothing to do with the EU.
Less likely now to get COVID than all the groups below....
They had to get assurances from a very high level in the government, that team members and organising officials wouldn’t be arrested at the border the following year, as the magistrate’s investigation into the accident was demanding.
The decision was always we leave or we we stay in with the knowledge we are on the ever closer union bus. There was no status quo or reform against the direction of travel option. Its both political and economic reality, it is much more efficient for most EU countries to be very closely aligned, while also providing them a protectionist block against the world.
The UK and Germany are probably the only two countries in the EU who could make it work going alone, but that doesn't mean it is the superior option.
Not that it necessarily proves anything but I believe James May is a Dacia fan?
I could understand it if we had suddenly seen 1000 deaths, each the day after vaccination, but this is not the case. Don't pause the programme - look at the evidence in front of your eyes.
I fear that over the next few weeks as the UK programme really speeds up the bitterness and acrimony is going to increase.
-Middlesex
-Jersey
-Dublin
-Guernsey
The fastest growing cities were Glasgow, Manchester & Liverpool, and the population of Ireland was 8.2 million...
https://twitter.com/danc00ks0n/status/1371496246779785217?s=20
FWIW, I think William still has a genuine passion for a Europe, and for pan-European intergovernmental governance, it's just he's become disillusioned with the present EU.
It's a lesson that they shouldn't take their present supporters for granted. I don't know if they'll heed it.
My own guess is that most Americans do NOT know who he is, or have only the vaguest idea. He's higher profile than Brown, Cameron or May, but WAY behind Blair, Thatcher and even (I think) Major.
AND some of us in US who DO know of BJ, believe his main claim to fame is being Benny Hill's love child . . .
Spain will stop using AstraZeneca’s Covid vaccine for at least 15 days, Cadena Ser radio reported on Monday, citing unnamed sources.
Health minister was due to provide an update later on Monday, as a growing list of countries stop administering the shot amid concerns of severe side effects, Reuters reports. The health ministry declined to comment.
Are Rare Cases of Immune Thrombocytopenia Linked to the COVID Vaccine?
https://www.ashclinicalnews.org/online-exclusives/rare-cases-immune-thrombocytopenia-linked-covid-vaccine/
...As of February 8, more than 31 million people in the U.S. had received at least one dose of the vaccine, with 36 cases of ITP reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System by the end of January.
“I think it is possible that there is an association,” James Bussel, MD, a hematologist and professor emeritus at Weill Cornell Medicine told The New York Times. “I’m assuming there’s something that made the people who developed thrombocytopenia susceptible, given what a tiny percentage of recipients they are.” He added, “Having it happen after a vaccine is well-known and has been seen with many other vaccines. Why it happens, we don’t know.”
U.S. Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention officials said they were investigating the reports, but that the rates of ITP in vaccinated patients did not appear higher than that of the general U.S. population. The vaccine is considered safe overall, and the cases of ITP could be coincidental...
It's now entirely possible that some EU countries will still be in lockdown in May when most of the restrictions in the UK are scheduled to be binned. I wonder what else apart from Northern Ireland they'll find to pick fresh fights over?