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And so to Sunak’s budget starting with an announcement that parts of the Treasury are moving to Darl

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  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    tlg86 said:

    How does a mortgage guarantee work? If house prices fall and the bank dips out on a repossession, the tax payer makes up the difference?

    House prices can never go down.

    That’s the absurd situation we find ourselves in.

    Fk the next generation....
  • That picture highlighted by John Rentoul is what happens when panoramic mode is used for unsuitable shots.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,150
    Sturgeon: “I think I don’t know anything about that”

    Jeezo
  • DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Fucking hell just shut the fuck about Yemen. No one gives a flying fuck about it.

    It's the greatest humanitarian crisis in our world! As PM putdowns of Opposition Leaders at #PMQs go, this is among the worst.

    It also shows what a shallow person you are
    Er, no offense Mike, but I think COVID, which has killed millions, and caused the greatest global economic and social emergency since World War 2, is a bigger humanitarian crisis than Yemen.
    The war in Yemen has killed a quarter of a million. The pandemic has killed ten times that but globally. The difference is the fact that the war has a concentrated death toll in one country that is also suffering the pandemic's effects. It is, therefore, appropriate to ask questions about reducing aid there.
    Yes it is. But not today.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    tlg86 said:

    How does a mortgage guarantee work? If house prices fall and the bank dips out on a repossession, the tax payer makes up the difference?

    I think so, yes. I figure the state guarantee will be time limited though.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,923
    The borrowing figures are eye watering.
  • tlg86 said:

    How does a mortgage guarantee work? If house prices fall and the bank dips out on a repossession, the tax payer makes up the difference?

    Bloody hell, if Jeremy Corbyn had proposed this...

    The last thing we need is to encourage people to default/stop paying their mortgage.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    97.1% debt to GDP. Horrific.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,150
    MaxPB said:

    97.1% debt to GDP. Horrific.

    But unsurprising
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    Two world wars and one world cup.
    Wasn't expecting such a dig in the Budget.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,125
    Come on RIshi, out with the bad news !
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    eek said:

    Ridiculously pessimistic OBR forecast growth figures. Don't believe them for a second.

    Plan for the best, prepare for the worst.

    Twas always the best idea.
    4% growth this year and 1.6% in 2023 is really the worst possible.

    Setting the floor low to clear it easily in future years it seems.
    Lockdown supporter in 'refusal to believe the shattering effects of lockdown' shock.
    Lockdown is ending. We're not going to be in lockdown in 2023.

    So its being out of lockdown we're talking about, not being in lockdown. 🙄
    The effects of lockdown are going to last way, way beyond lockdown. Surely.

    If the government had just shut down your business by fiat for months on end, even though you invested thousands trying to make it covid safe, you might think twice about starting up again.

    Or you might think 20 times.

    Or you might not bother.

    What's to stop them doing it again when Chris Whitty feels a bit nervous? nothing.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ping said:

    tlg86 said:

    How does a mortgage guarantee work? If house prices fall and the bank dips out on a repossession, the tax payer makes up the difference?

    House prices can never go down.

    That’s the absurd situation we find ourselves in.

    Fk the next generation....
    Absolutely nothing new. Keynes warned about wages and prices being sticky downwards approaching a century ago now and that applies just as much to house prices.

    The key is to stabilise house prices while increasing wages faster than house prices thus bringing down price to wage ratios.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,288

    For someone who used to be a lawyer Sturgeon sounds surprisingly heavy footed

    Salmond was much slicker than this

    Think it was more apprenticeship and a bit of conveyancing before performing "public" duty
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    97.1% debt to GDP. Horrific.

    But unsurprising
    True, but still horiffic. The tax rises are going to be eyewatering.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,799
    MaxPB said:

    Mortgage guarantee scheme. I'd like to see the detail of it.

    Now we get to the tax rises. Feel like this is going to be horrific.

    Don't we get tax rises at the end of the month?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Get on with it Rishi!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,161

    tlg86 said:

    How does a mortgage guarantee work? If house prices fall and the bank dips out on a repossession, the tax payer makes up the difference?

    Bloody hell, if Jeremy Corbyn had proposed this...

    The last thing we need is to encourage people to default/stop paying their mortgage.
    Well, I doubt those with the mortgages will want to default!

    What the CotE is signposting is that interest rates won't be going up any time soon.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Bloody hell just get on with it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,025
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, not sure about increasing the minimum wage in this environment. Hospitality is going to struggle as it is, higher wages will make that tougher.

    Indeed, we're almost certainly in the opposite of the situation where I think it should go up (high immigration and low unemployment).
    Should abolish it altogether. It increases unemployment and disincentivises people from upskilling themselves.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,354

    MaxPB said:

    Mortgage guarantee scheme. I'd like to see the detail of it.

    Now we get to the tax rises. Feel like this is going to be horrific.

    Don't we get tax rises at the end of the month?
    Unlikely - there is very little you can announce here that can be implemented in software by the end of the month.

    You can change band starting points and percentages but little else.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eek said:

    Ridiculously pessimistic OBR forecast growth figures. Don't believe them for a second.

    Plan for the best, prepare for the worst.

    Twas always the best idea.
    4% growth this year and 1.6% in 2023 is really the worst possible.

    Setting the floor low to clear it easily in future years it seems.
    Lockdown supporter in 'refusal to believe the shattering effects of lockdown' shock.
    Lockdown is ending. We're not going to be in lockdown in 2023.

    So its being out of lockdown we're talking about, not being in lockdown. 🙄
    The effects of lockdown are going to last way, way beyond lockdown. Surely.

    If the government had just shut down your business by fiat for months on end, even though you invested thousands trying to make it covid safe, you might think twice about starting up again.

    Or you might think 20 times.

    Or you might not bother.

    What's to stop them doing it again when Chris Whitty feels a bit nervous? nothing.

    The key to ending shutdowns is ending the pandemic and that is vaccines.

    People will be vaccinated and businesses are shut all around the world, even in places where there's no official lockdown businesses shut because they have no customers as people stay at home.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Freeze income tax thresholds
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Fiscal drag. I can live with that.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    ping said:

    tlg86 said:

    How does a mortgage guarantee work? If house prices fall and the bank dips out on a repossession, the tax payer makes up the difference?

    House prices can never go down.

    That’s the absurd situation we find ourselves in.

    Fk the next generation....
    Of course. In crude terms it's an active policy of redistribution from the poor young to the rich elderly, because the rich elderly are the Conservatives' clients - and they are numerous, becoming more numerous due to demographic change, and they're good at turning out to vote. Is anyone surprised?
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    How does a mortgage guarantee work? If house prices fall and the bank dips out on a repossession, the tax payer makes up the difference?

    Bloody hell, if Jeremy Corbyn had proposed this...

    The last thing we need is to encourage people to default/stop paying their mortgage.
    Well, I doubt those with the mortgages will want to default!

    What the CotE is signposting is that interest rates won't be going up any time soon.
    Ooh, we need a holiday, I can't afford it, oh I'll stop paying the mortgage for the next few months, because now we won't get repossessed.

    Madness lies that way.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,125
    That's the low hanging fiscal drift fruit.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,090

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Fucking hell just shut the fuck about Yemen. No one gives a flying fuck about it.

    It's the greatest humanitarian crisis in our world! As PM putdowns of Opposition Leaders at #PMQs go, this is among the worst.

    It also shows what a shallow person you are
    Er, no offense Mike, but I think COVID, which has killed millions, and caused the greatest global economic and social emergency since World War 2, is a bigger humanitarian crisis than Yemen.
    The war in Yemen has killed a quarter of a million. The pandemic has killed ten times that but globally. The difference is the fact that the war has a concentrated death toll in one country that is also suffering the pandemic's effects. It is, therefore, appropriate to ask questions about reducing aid there.
    Why should the UK be the only country supplying aid there?

    We'll still be the leading aid donor there. Other countries need to step up to the plate too.
    That's a legitimate question to ask. Another legitimate question is why we shouldn't step up to the plate to make up for said deficiency elsewhere.
    Because we're already at the plate. Alone.
    We are contributing to the carnage for which the aid is needed.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    LOL extra £70 personal allowance then frozen until 2026!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,150
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    97.1% debt to GDP. Horrific.

    But unsurprising
    True, but still horiffic. The tax rises are going to be eyewatering.
    Hence the predictions of sluggish growth
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    Effective freeze in tax thresholds for 5 years! Crumbs.
  • Sunak's clearly a buyer on the length of speech marker with SPIN.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,161

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    How does a mortgage guarantee work? If house prices fall and the bank dips out on a repossession, the tax payer makes up the difference?

    Bloody hell, if Jeremy Corbyn had proposed this...

    The last thing we need is to encourage people to default/stop paying their mortgage.
    Well, I doubt those with the mortgages will want to default!

    What the CotE is signposting is that interest rates won't be going up any time soon.
    Ooh, we need a holiday, I can't afford it, oh I'll stop paying the mortgage for the next few months, because now we won't get repossessed.

    Madness lies that way.
    No, I think they would get repossessed. But if the bank lost out because of a fall in house prices, the government would make up the difference.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Four year freeze on income tax thresholds. If inflation returns, that's going to be one hell of a tax rise.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,923
    MaxPB said:

    Fiscal drag. I can live with that.

    That can't be the extent of it....that won't cut into the mountain that much.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,858

    MaxPB said:

    I'm seriously worried about corporate taxes rising. If the chancellor makes this shirt sighted move it's going to hurt the economy in the long term. Ignore the IFS, ignore "economists" and lower it to 15% and introduce gigantic or unlimited R&D and capital investment allowances.

    We need to grow our way out of this, not push up taxes.

    100% agreed.

    Tax cuts not tax rises please Rishi!
    The strategy is to freeze allowances, limits and ceilings for five years and wait for inflation to drag in the extra tax revenue
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Endillion said:

    Four year freeze on income tax thresholds. If inflation returns, that's going to be one hell of a tax rise.

    Fiscal drag rules ok.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,125

    Sunak's clearly a buyer on the length of speech marker with SPIN.

    I've sold million and billion @ 87, make the count 39 so far.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,653
    Corporation tax to 25% in 2023
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    Fiscal drag. I can live with that.

    Yes that's not too bad. If the economy does better than expected can start rising them up again.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Wtf. 25%?!

    Mental. Businesses will desert the country.
  • 25% corporation tax from 2023
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    LOL how are we feeling about lockdown now people??
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,923
    MaxPB said:

    Wtf. 25%?!

    Mental. Businesses will desert the country.

    Shakes head.....stupid, stupid, stupid.... especially with Brexit.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,354

    MaxPB said:

    Fiscal drag. I can live with that.

    That can't be the extent of it....that won't cut into the mountain that much.
    What mountain are you trying to fix.

    The Everest sized Covid one off problem or a continual structural deficit (of unknown size) at the moment.

    The former doesn't really matter, the latter does.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Corporation tax to 25% in 2023

    Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. 👎 👎 👎
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Dual rate of corporation tax. 🤮
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,090
    edited March 2021
    MaxPB said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Fucking hell just shut the fuck about Yemen. No one gives a flying fuck about it.

    It's the greatest humanitarian crisis in our world! As PM putdowns of Opposition Leaders at #PMQs go, this is among the worst.

    It also shows what a shallow person you are
    Er, no offense Mike, but I think COVID, which has killed millions, and caused the greatest global economic and social emergency since World War 2, is a bigger humanitarian crisis than Yemen.
    The war in Yemen has killed a quarter of a million. The pandemic has killed ten times that but globally. The difference is the fact that the war has a concentrated death toll in one country that is also suffering the pandemic's effects. It is, therefore, appropriate to ask questions about reducing aid there.
    Why should the UK be the only country supplying aid there?

    We'll still be the leading aid donor there. Other countries need to step up to the plate too.
    That's a legitimate question to ask. Another legitimate question is why we shouldn't step up to the plate to make up for said deficiency elsewhere.
    Simply, why should we?
    Because of the money we're making off the conflict?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,150
    MaxPB said:

    Wtf. 25%?!

    Mental. Businesses will desert the country.

    Not good
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,161
    MaxPB said:

    Dual rate of corporation tax. 🤮

    Lots of new subsidiaries?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,923
    I didn't know we had elected John McDonnell as CoE....
  • eekeek Posts: 28,354

    Corporation tax to 25% in 2023

    Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. 👎 👎 👎
    What else was available if you don't breach your manifesto commitments?
  • Corporation Tax to go to 25% from 2023. But small businesses like mine still only pay 19%.

    I said he was dishi didn't I..?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    I didn't know we had elected John McDonnell as CoE....

    You mean Blair, pretty certain these are 2008 rates.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,354

    LOL how are we feeling about lockdown now people??

    I'm alive and I might not otherwise be.

    And you?
  • MaxPB said:

    Wtf. 25%?!

    Mental. Businesses will desert the country.

    The reason why David Herdson and I left the Tory party, we predicted Boris Johnson would do unconservative things.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    Corporation tax to 25% in 2023

    Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. 👎 👎 👎
    What else was available if you don't breach your manifesto commitments?
    Borrowing to be frank.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    But lockdown was worth it, right???

    LOOOLLLLLLL
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,858

    MaxPB said:

    Fiscal drag. I can live with that.

    Yes that's not too bad. If the economy does better than expected can start rising them up again.
    More likely the thinking is that if inflation does appear and starts to raise the risk of interest rates hikes, at least the government will have the associated stealth tax rise to help cover any rise in the cost of its borrowing.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,125
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dual rate of corporation tax. 🤮

    Lots of new subsidiaries?
    You don't get out of tax by having group subsidiaries. All sorts of rules round that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,923
    Any talk of post-Brexit Singapore on Thames has definitely ended....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Absolutely shocking. Can't believe this is coming from a Tory chancellor. Horrible.

    Completely and utterly awful. No long term thinking behind this. Big businesses are already looking at the exit sign and now Rishi is giving them a push towards it. Completely and utterly bonkers.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,354
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dual rate of corporation tax. 🤮

    Lots of new subsidiaries?
    That hasn't worked since circa 1890...
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    eek said:

    LOL how are we feeling about lockdown now people??

    I'm alive and I might not otherwise be.

    And you?
    Jeez that the best you got?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    But lockdown was worth it, right???

    LOOOLLLLLLL

    When are you going to understand that the economy would have been hammered with or without a lockdown. 🙄
  • eekeek Posts: 28,354

    eek said:

    LOL how are we feeling about lockdown now people??

    I'm alive and I might not otherwise be.

    And you?
    Jeez that the best you got?
    I'm trying to see the impact so far - and I've had far worse budgets for my own circumstances...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Rishi needs a huge rabbit out of a hat here. Unlimited business investment allowances please.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dual rate of corporation tax. 🤮

    Lots of new subsidiaries?
    You don't get out of tax by having group subsidiaries. All sorts of rules round that.
    Also managing all those new subsidiaries isn't cheap.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,923
    MaxPB said:

    Absolutely shocking. Can't believe this is coming from a Tory chancellor. Horrible.

    Completely and utterly awful. No long term thinking behind this. Big businesses are already looking at the exit sign and now Rishi is giving them a push towards it. Completely and utterly bonkers.

    He said it wasn't right to place the burden on working people, well you have to have a job first....
  • eekeek Posts: 28,354

    eek said:

    Corporation tax to 25% in 2023

    Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. 👎 👎 👎
    What else was available if you don't breach your manifesto commitments?
    Borrowing to be frank.
    MMT isn't something that Rishi agrees with...
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    MaxPB said:

    Absolutely shocking. Can't believe this is coming from a Tory chancellor. Horrible.

    Completely and utterly awful. No long term thinking behind this. Big businesses are already looking at the exit sign and now Rishi is giving them a push towards it. Completely and utterly bonkers.

    Sunak is probably afraid of being blown off course by rising long rates and rising inflation. That really would cook his goose.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Ok this is a good measure. Make it permanent please and make R&D allowable too.
  • But lockdown was worth it, right???

    LOOOLLLLLLL

    When are you going to understand that the economy would have been hammered with or without a lockdown. 🙄
    Yes, Contrarian doesn't understand that if there wasn't a de jure lockdown there would have been a de facto lockdown by the public.

    Which reminds me what is happening in Sweden that Contrarian and the Alistair Hames lovers used to spam this site with.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,923
    This is all sounds like a set of Gordon Brown schemes. Extra tax bands, complex schemes for deductions, huge fiscal drag....
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    MaxPB said:

    Rishi needs a huge rabbit out of a hat here. Unlimited business investment allowances please.

    Not quite, but close enough. I have no idea how this plays with the corporation tax rise though.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,799

    I didn't know we had elected John McDonnell as CoE....

    Boris won in 2019 by running on Corbyn's platform from 2017.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,125
    I forsee lots of "investment"
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,858
    This feels like a budget that may unravel. He’s painting a picture of a big hole but merely pretending he has a plan to seriously address it, whilst meanwhile continuing to spend during 2021 like there’s no tomorrow.

    Fuel and drink duty increases all cancelled, as well.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    Get a round in!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,161
    Sunak is making out that the increases in corporation tax will only affect the biggest, most profitable companies. But surely it own't raise all that much money...
  • Has he said anything about Universal Credit?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Corporation tax to 25% in 2023

    Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. 👎 👎 👎
    What else was available if you don't breach your manifesto commitments?
    Borrowing to be frank.
    MMT isn't something that Rishi agrees with...
    He doesn't need to agree with it, he just needs to wait a year or two before trying to close the deficit rather than seeking to get it down to below 3% immediately.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Pulpstar said:

    I forsee lots of "investment"

    There's going to be pretty tight rules on what constitutes investment, I guess. R&D and capital investment make sense to qualify. Not sure what else I'd include.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Has he said anything about Universal Credit?

    Yes, £20 will continue. Something about the self-employed equivalent too
  • eekeek Posts: 28,354

    Has he said anything about Universal Credit?

    £20 extra until September - it was mentioned alongside the furlough extension last night.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,923
    tlg86 said:

    Sunak is making out that the increases in corporation tax will only affect the biggest, most profitable companies. But surely it own't raise all that much money...

    We also know the very biggest and richest companies already avoid it e.g. Apple.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395

    This is all sounds like a set of Gordon Brown schemes. Extra tax bands, complex schemes for deductions, huge fiscal drag....

    Not exactly a bonfire of red tape is it?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726

    Has he said anything about Universal Credit?

    Yes, 6 month extension to the extra £20 per week.
  • Has he said anything about Universal Credit?

    Yes, £20 will continue. Something about the self-employed equivalent too
    Thanks & @eek too.
  • "An investment-led recovery". Marvellous. A "super-deduction" reducing tax on investment by 130%. Fab, if it includes plant and machinery!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,858
    Claiming the mantle of honesty and responsibility whilst ducking all the serious choices over how to balance the books is neither honest nor responsible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999
    edited March 2021
    eek said:

    Corporation tax to 25% in 2023

    Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. 👎 👎 👎
    What else was available if you don't breach your manifesto commitments?
    Well exactly. There are arguments for not raising taxes now, but Rishi is basically facing pressure never to raise any ever.

    He might still not make the best call, but he was never going to be permitted to do a lot of things.
  • Has he said anything about Universal Credit?

    £20 continues to end of September
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Infrastructure Bank to Leeds with £12bn
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,714
    So, how did the sainted Nicola get on? Any tears?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Harry Dunn -- tragic but HMG would do better to take concrete measures like stopping US personnel importing left-hand-drive cars.

    This will never happen as free shipping of private cars is cherished perk associated with a US forces PCS order. They certainly aren't going to stop it just because the British government asks them to.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    tlg86 said:

    Sunak is making out that the increases in corporation tax will only affect the biggest, most profitable companies. But surely it own't raise all that much money...

    It won't because those businesses are very good at avoiding tax, especially international ones. What it does it hurt domestically focussed big businesses and turn them into takeover targets.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,125
    Rishi's worked out where the marginals are.
This discussion has been closed.