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Break open your cage and VOOM: New policies for the Lib Dems – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited February 2021 in General
imageBreak open your cage and VOOM: New policies for the Lib Dems – politicalbetting.com

Margaret Thatcher’s only good joke – maybe her *only* joke – was likening the Liberal Democrats to Monty Python’s dead parrot.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Very interesting piece Gardenwalker, thank you.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited February 2021
    Lib whos?
  • Oh, did I bagsy a first?
  • Universal Basic Income is the stand out that I could see getting traction. If it adds up or not, is a different matter, but as a clear easy to explain policy that will be popular among a wide range of people, I would have thought it would be a no brainer for the Lib whats-a-ma-call-its.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,758
    Good piece but who is listening to the Lib Dems? Ed Davey has just been invisible.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited February 2021
    Breaking news! Someone with an actual sense of humour has been allowed to write for the Observer...

    https://twitter.com/GdnPolitics/status/1365914137897803776
    For those of us who like to talk Britain down, all this good news is hard to take. The vaccination figures are shocking. Nearly 20 million first doses administered. A forward-thinking procurement plan. The leading large nation, far ahead of the US and, more gallingly for us frothing Remoaners, miles ahead of Europe. Nothing could be more depressing for the honest self-loathing liberal Brit. You know the type. Recycle assiduously but fly once a fortnight.

    The bitterest pill is that we’re beating Germany. Germany, the nation self-loathing Brits revere more than any other. Germany, which welcomes every immigrant, has sensible governments, and has only ever craved peaceful European integration.

    It transpires that several of the dozen or so vaccines Germany thought to order have been ensnared in red tape. Surely the pandemic can’t have exposed shortcomings in having a pan-continental uber-bureaucracy?

    Wasn’t all that technik meant to lead to a bit of vorsprung? The front page of Bild, one of Germany’s main tabloids, last Wednesday read “Britain, We Envy You”. While Eeyorish Mrs Merkel warns of yet another lockdown, with less than 10% of her population vaccinated, our flaxen-haired prime minister leads his nation towards a summer of Weimar excess. Mutti, how could you forsake your fans in Islington like this?
  • Sir Keir problem is here to stay.

    Liverpool Labour councillors fail to abolish role of city mayor

    Motion to revert to leader and cabinet model followed scrapping of all-female mayoral shortlist

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/28/liverpool-labour-councillors-fail-abolish-city-mayor
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    This is good stuff. Number 6 is a bit tricky though, with their most notable ex-leader still out shilling for Facebook.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    edited February 2021
    Nice piece. Thankyou. You’re right, they should be the ‘open up’ party.

    Also: Brave to put the words ‘VOOM’ and ‘Lib Dems’ in the same headline.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited February 2021
    These finding should be being rammed home by the government...Clifnotes, it takes a month for Pfizer to max kick in (yes its Israel with 2 doses / 21 days, but it is clear from the data, first 2 weeks you aren't protected, its week 3 it starts to kick in, and a month is when you start to get amazing protection).

    Government need a slogan around this and be screaming this again and again and again....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNCrzOl2PfA
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,758

    Breaking news! Someone with an actual sense of humour has been allowed to write for the Observer...

    https://twitter.com/GdnPolitics/status/1365914137897803776
    For those of us who like to talk Britain down, all this good news is hard to take. The vaccination figures are shocking. Nearly 20 million first doses administered. A forward-thinking procurement plan. The leading large nation, far ahead of the US and, more gallingly for us frothing Remoaners, miles ahead of Europe. Nothing could be more depressing for the honest self-loathing liberal Brit. You know the type. Recycle assiduously but fly once a fortnight.

    The bitterest pill is that we’re beating Germany. Germany, the nation self-loathing Brits revere more than any other. Germany, which welcomes every immigrant, has sensible governments, and has only ever craved peaceful European integration.

    It transpires that several of the dozen or so vaccines Germany thought to order have been ensnared in red tape. Surely the pandemic can’t have exposed shortcomings in having a pan-continental uber-bureaucracy?

    Wasn’t all that technik meant to lead to a bit of vorsprung? The front page of Bild, one of Germany’s main tabloids, last Wednesday read “Britain, We Envy You”. While Eeyorish Mrs Merkel warns of yet another lockdown, with less than 10% of her population vaccinated, our flaxen-haired prime minister leads his nation towards a summer of Weimar excess. Mutti, how could you forsake your fans in Islington like this?

    A good sense of humour goes a long way.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,081
    Certainly, they are in such a parlous position that their old-fashioned "jam for all" policymaking can come back in to play, with not the slightest risk anyone is going to put them anywhere near government.

    Their (what I shall generously call) 'localism' is also quite important to a recovery (i.e. promising diametrically opposite things to different constituencies, based on local concerns).

    If they can use that to claw their way back up to 30-to-50-odd MPs over the next few parliaments, they can start worrying about being a national party again.

    Or am I being unfair?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    Zvanzig millionen impfungen !
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,603
    On Topic -

    Point 2 - Drug legalisation must no be the stupid version - where consumption is legal but supply is left in the hands of criminals. What is required is a complete supply chain legalisation, from manufacture to consumption, with quality controls and taxation carefully considered in its effects.

    Already in the US, some legalisation efforts have run into taxation high enough that illegal drugs are cheaper. Fail.

    Part of the problem there is that legalisation hasn't been done federally, so business financing is impossible to do properly. Which raises costs and encourages the participation of those with suitcases of cash....

    A sensible drug legalisation structure would drop the costs of production and supply by an order of magnitude. Which would allow plenty of "space" for sensible taxation.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,758
    I saw on here the other day that abolishing tuition fees would cost something like £5.6bn a year. Is that right? If so its frankly crazy. Its impeding house purchase by the young. How on earth are they going to grow up and become proper Tories if they can't buy their own house? It means that the young are effectively paying even more tax than Nicola's serfs have to reducing their consumption and demand.

    I assumed it would be a lot more than this. If that is all it is I am all for abolition.
  • https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1366016945435389957?s=20

    So the question is, just like the Tories will the boost last?
  • Good article Gardenwalker.

    I don't agree with all your points but have sympathy for most of them. Its a shame to see the LDs embrace illiberalism in recent years as well as their opposition to democracy - it would make a refreshing change if they did become unabashedly liberal.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,603

    These finding should be being rammed home by the government...Clifnotes, it takes a month for Pfizer to max kick in (yes its Israel with 2 doses / 21 days, but it is clear from the data, first 2 weeks you aren't protected, its week 3 it starts to kick in, and a month is when you start to get amazing protection).

    Government need a slogan around this and be screaming this again and again and again....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNCrzOl2PfA

    And it takes longer to get protection the older you are, I believe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    Off topic but deliciously scary

    Deep fakes. They are now so good they are close to being perfect. Another year?

    Imagine the chaos they might cause, the crimes that come with. And fret.

    https://twitter.com/damianburns/status/1365247515898097667?s=21
  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 234
    FPT

    Allegra and Carrie are “a nest of singing birds”. Apparently.

    https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1365959662198272000?s=21

    "I would do anything for Carrie... but I won't do that" (fill in the blanks for what that is...)
  • https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1366016945435389957?s=20

    So the question is, just like the Tories will the boost last?

    This isn't just a vaccine boost, this is a Drakeford boost.

    This is the Welsh realising how lucky they are to have Drakeford as First Minister.

    I'd like to see a vote match bet between the SNP and Welsh Labour in May's devolved elections.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1366016945435389957?s=20

    So the question is, just like the Tories will the boost last?

    Wales, always returning to form.
  • DavidL said:

    I saw on here the other day that abolishing tuition fees would cost something like £5.6bn a year. Is that right? If so its frankly crazy. Its impeding house purchase by the young. How on earth are they going to grow up and become proper Tories if they can't buy their own house? It means that the young are effectively paying even more tax than Nicola's serfs have to reducing their consumption and demand.

    I assumed it would be a lot more than this. If that is all it is I am all for abolition.

    In 2018/19 there were over 2.38 million students enrolled in higher education courses in the United Kingdom, with almost 1.8 million of these being undergraduate students, and over 585 thousand enrolled in postgraduate courses.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Leon said:

    Off topic but deliciously scary

    Deep fakes. They are now so good they are close to being perfect. Another year?

    Imagine the chaos they might cause, the crimes that come with. And fret.

    https://twitter.com/damianburns/status/1365247515898097667?s=21

    The greatest fake Tom Cruise video was this one
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-LkbsFpC7I&list=FLg5SdxeHca5JpoZ1j9-RpJg&index=4
  • Leon said:

    Off topic but deliciously scary

    Deep fakes. They are now so good they are close to being perfect. Another year?

    Imagine the chaos they might cause, the crimes that come with. And fret.

    twitter.com/damianburns/status/1365247515898097667?s=21

    Cameo and OnlyFans....
  • Ignore the boy who cried Naomi Wolf at your peril.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    He’s right. I find it alarming, too. It’s not as bad as Scotland but we cannot freely criticise the SNP for their incestuous arrangements when this is the case at Number Ten. Boris needs to get a grip on this
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    DavidL said:

    I saw on here the other day that abolishing tuition fees would cost something like £5.6bn a year. Is that right? If so its frankly crazy. Its impeding house purchase by the young. How on earth are they going to grow up and become proper Tories if they can't buy their own house? It means that the young are effectively paying even more tax than Nicola's serfs have to reducing their consumption and demand.

    I assumed it would be a lot more than this. If that is all it is I am all for abolition.

    Shouldn't be hard to work out. There are about 2m students in the UK at any given time, and they pay fees of just over £9k a year at most. Some of those will be overseas students who we don't pay for, or who currently don't pay tuition due to low parental income, but that's a max of £18bn a year. Something like half of that gets written off ultimately, so high single digit billions sounds reasonable.

    One of the important things to remember about tuition fees, is graduates don't suddenly become debt free if you cancel them. They still need to fund their living expenses while at University somehow, so they could still end up with ~£20k of debt, which under the current regime, a sizeable proportion would still not even be covering the interest payments. A much greater proportion would be paying it off before it gets written off, but it would still be a drag on their ability to save for a decade or two after graduation.

    One easy quick fix is to put the interest rate all the way down to BoE base. This would currently cost almost nothing, since almost no one pays off the whole debt anyway, but it have a positive psychological effect as the debt wouldn't be spiralling year on year.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,263
    Very interesting header @Gardenwalker. I'd vote for the party that adopted these policies!
  • Leon said:

    He’s right. I find it alarming, too. It’s not as bad as Scotland but we cannot freely criticise the SNP for their incestuous arrangements when this is the case at Number Ten. Boris needs to get a grip on this
    Be amusing if Boris Johnson was ousted following a campaign to take back control from our unelected rulers Carrie.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    Wouldn’t a flagship policy of tuition fee abolition simply remind people of the last time they stood on that platform ... and then voted to treble them instead?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    An interesting list. It would at least give the Liberal Democrats space to be different.

    The risk however is that it’s the sort of list that could end up with them riding two horses. Yes, I get that they’re ‘not trying to appeal to Red Wallers’ but they’re hardly going to attract the pensioner vote over the licence fee by simultaneously rejoining EFTA.

    And while two horses worked very well indeed for the Liberal Democrats for 25 years, it also led them to fall very flat in the mud over tuition fees.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    edited February 2021
    Leon said:

    He’s right. I find it alarming, too. It’s not as bad as Scotland but we cannot freely criticise the SNP for their incestuous arrangements when this is the case at Number Ten. Boris needs to get a grip on this
    [deleted]
  • Covid hospital numbers continuing to drop quickly and at an accelerating rate:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Should be at negligible levels before the end of March.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Some of these ideas are no brainers. Cannabis, free trade, scrapping council tax, etc, gives a good range for example. Something that others will probably do soon, a 'big' policy which gives the right image, and one which is probably more complicated, but very useful for every local election season. Standing up for free speech and big tech is also just part of branding, as others will be doing that too.

    It is hard for the LDs to get attention, so they do need to just hammer home a few memorable ideas every single time they can get in front of the camera.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited February 2021
    I am still shocked that Jezza didn't include some sort of drug legalisation in his 2019 manifesto.
  • Covid hospital numbers continuing to drop quickly and at an accelerating rate:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Should be at negligible levels before the end of March.

    Might be able to take down the razor wire and fill in the trenches protecting Chez Urquhart by the summer then ;-)
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    guybrush said:

    I've noticed in a couple of places the term BAME being phased out in favour of something vague and inoffensive, so maybe it is on the way to being cancelled.

    Have to agree with @Gardenwalker, without minimising the reality of racism, which is of course present in our society we do appear so wrapped up in the whole thing as to miss the bigger picture... class, wealth.

    I would suggest the experience of a Chinese person working in the City, black kid on a council estate, Asian factory worker in the midlands, Orthodox Jewish dude in North London, Indian doctor/Chancellor of the Exchequer (I could go on) are so diverse and varied as to make the term meaningless...

    Yes, there have already been articles in the Guardian complaining about ‘BAME’ being patronising. Which it is

    It’s not long for this world. If Kinabalu is not get careful he will still be using it next year and he’ll get cancelled. However, I predict he will execute a perfect 180 and eagerly use the new word, whatever it is, while simultaneously claiming he always regarded ‘BAME’ as bigoted and ugly
    I doubt it. What I can predict with 100% confidence is that you and your ilk will continue to be angered loudly and beyond measure by the sensitivities and the lexicon of the anti-racism movement and yet oddly low wattage about racism itself.
    Every single ‘approved term’ for BAMEs (Christ, it really is ugly, it makes me wince just writing it) has been superseded by a ‘more sensitive’ term, in time. I’m old enough to remember ‘Afro-caribbean’. And let’s not forget ‘coloured person’ was itself a politically correct replacement for earlier words.

    There is no reason BAME will be immune to this iron law. Especially as it is hideous and patronising.

    I’m actually willing to bet on this, if we can frame the wager coherently.
    So Bame goes in favour of something else. Then that goes and there's something else again. Language evolves. Sensitivities change. So what? This is not in my top 50 of things to be angry, concerned or irritated about on planet earth 2021. Racism, OTOH, is.

    I genuinely do not get why people have those things in the reverse order and I think those who do ought to carry out a self-audit - a proper one - before they write too much on it.

    Have you done that?

    Serious question. I'm not trying to be an insinuating smarmball. Not this time.
    Racism is.

    Unless its racism against Jews.

    Got it.

    When will you stand up and say Jews count?
    Says the nasty little troll for whom the Holocaust was just a statistic.
    Where are you getting that from, I have never said that. I've hated anti-Semitism all my life, my best friend growing up lost his great grandmother at Auschwitz, his grandmother survived thankfully.

    That you'd rather throw accusations at others instead of saying Jews count and anti-racism must include fighting anti-Semitism is sickening.

    Is saying Jews do count really so difficult for you?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,263
    Endillion said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw on here the other day that abolishing tuition fees would cost something like £5.6bn a year. Is that right? If so its frankly crazy. Its impeding house purchase by the young. How on earth are they going to grow up and become proper Tories if they can't buy their own house? It means that the young are effectively paying even more tax than Nicola's serfs have to reducing their consumption and demand.

    I assumed it would be a lot more than this. If that is all it is I am all for abolition.

    Shouldn't be hard to work out. There are about 2m students in the UK at any given time, and they pay fees of just over £9k a year at most. Some of those will be overseas students who we don't pay for, or who currently don't pay tuition due to low parental income, but that's a max of £18bn a year. Something like half of that gets written off ultimately, so high single digit billions sounds reasonable.

    One of the important things to remember about tuition fees, is graduates don't suddenly become debt free if you cancel them. They still need to fund their living expenses while at University somehow, so they could still end up with ~£20k of debt, which under the current regime, a sizeable proportion would still not even be covering the interest payments. A much greater proportion would be paying it off before it gets written off, but it would still be a drag on their ability to save for a decade or two after graduation.

    One easy quick fix is to put the interest rate all the way down to BoE base. This would currently cost almost nothing, since almost no one pays off the whole debt anyway, but it have a positive psychological effect as the debt wouldn't be spiralling year on year.
    My nephew told me he paid off £2.6k on his student loan last year through tax; £3k was added in interest (at circa 6% !). So he now owes £400 more. Madness.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,758

    DavidL said:

    I saw on here the other day that abolishing tuition fees would cost something like £5.6bn a year. Is that right? If so its frankly crazy. Its impeding house purchase by the young. How on earth are they going to grow up and become proper Tories if they can't buy their own house? It means that the young are effectively paying even more tax than Nicola's serfs have to reducing their consumption and demand.

    I assumed it would be a lot more than this. If that is all it is I am all for abolition.

    In 2018/19 there were over 2.38 million students enrolled in higher education courses in the United Kingdom, with almost 1.8 million of these being undergraduate students, and over 585 thousand enrolled in postgraduate courses.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/
    That can't be right then. Some of those are Scots and not paying fees but even 2m x £9250 is about £20bn. Which even these days is a lot of money.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    Off topic but deliciously scary

    Deep fakes. They are now so good they are close to being perfect. Another year?

    Imagine the chaos they might cause, the crimes that come with. And fret.

    twitter.com/damianburns/status/1365247515898097667?s=21

    Cameo and OnlyFans....
    The potential in almost every area of human life is mind-boggling.

    But let’s stick to politics first. If you can create perfect videos of Politician X saying Terrible Thing Y, then careers and countries can be changed/ruined by a bit of tech. Equally, every embarrassing video that emerges will now be blamed on deepfakery
  • Covid hospital numbers continuing to drop quickly and at an accelerating rate:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Should be at negligible levels before the end of March.

    Might be able to take down the razor wire and fill in the trenches protecting Chez Urquhart by the summer then ;-)
    I need a place with a moat.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 363
    On point 10. many of the restrictions go beyond what totalitarian governments have done in the past. So if the Lib Dems are so liberal, why are they accepting all these restrictions unopposed, without question? The Lib Dems are liberal in theory. To them Liberal is a slogan, a sound-bite, a way of campaigning, raising funds, getting elected. The messy business of actually being liberal seems to be far too much for them.
  • DavidL said:

    Good piece but who is listening to the Lib Dems? Ed Davey has just been invisible.

    He's a boring imitation of Starmer - Sir Keir and Sir Ed.

    Slappy Moran would have got them some attention, not necessarily good attention but perhaps even bad attention is better than being invisible.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Wouldn’t a flagship policy of tuition fee abolition simply remind people of the last time they stood on that platform ... and then voted to treble them instead?

    But that’s the point.
    Ed Davey needs to set himself against the Lib Dem stupidity of the recent past.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Off topic but deliciously scary

    Deep fakes. They are now so good they are close to being perfect. Another year?

    Imagine the chaos they might cause, the crimes that come with. And fret.

    twitter.com/damianburns/status/1365247515898097667?s=21

    Cameo and OnlyFans....
    The potential in almost every area of human life is mind-boggling.

    But let’s stick to politics first. If you can create perfect videos of Politician X saying Terrible Thing Y, then careers and countries can be changed/ruined by a bit of tech. Equally, every embarrassing video that emerges will now be blamed on deepfakery
    It will be a constant battle between DeepFake and DeepFake detectors.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    A back legalised cannabis, end lockdown asap, stand up to tech giants and for free speech and replace council tax with a land tax would be a good idea for the LDs and embrace a more traditional Liberal agenda which Davey, having served in the Coalition may be able to do. EFTA and soft Brexit is also the only logical choice for them on the EU for now.

    Locally they are also firmly on the NIMBY side in terms of opposing new developments and new housing which while narrowly populist and hypocritical given the 2019 LD commitment to build 300,000 new homes a year may help them win some councillors in the Home Counties
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    FPT - I think the last election where voter fraud had a significant bearing on the outcome in multiple seats was 1918, where industrial scale voter fraud by Sinn Fein was instrumental in winning them a majority in Ireland (and therefore in founding the Dail).
  • Covid hospital numbers continuing to drop quickly and at an accelerating rate:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Should be at negligible levels before the end of March.

    And a big drop week on week in English hospital deaths:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

    At this rate the lockdown ending is going to look far too slow.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Leon said:

    He’s right. I find it alarming, too. It’s not as bad as Scotland but we cannot freely criticise the SNP for their incestuous arrangements when this is the case at Number Ten. Boris needs to get a grip on this
    If someone is having influence on serious matters they need to have an official position. On the other hand, let's not kid ourselves that spouses and partners will have influence with the elected person. So there's a line to be walked with such things.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    edited February 2021
    Really pleased to see this piece from GardenWalker. It was certainly worthy of a thread header.

    I still think that for the foreseeable future, the LibDems should withdraw from Westminster. Localism is where their power lies. They should put their energies and funding into winning councils again. Whether they could extract some of these policies by standing aside in the General and urging voters to go Labour is perhaps also worthy of more thought.

    Also VOOM? If I were being cruel to Sir Ed Davey, I would suggest that is the shorthand equation for the LibDem prospects:

    Vote = 0.0 million

    or VOOM.....
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    DavidL said:

    Good piece but who is listening to the Lib Dems? Ed Davey has just been invisible.

    He's a boring imitation of Starmer - Sir Keir and Sir Ed.

    Slappy Moran would have got them some attention, not necessarily good attention but perhaps even bad attention is better than being invisible.
    No. She is nuts.

    Ed is good. But he needs to ditch the suit and tie, and be seen out and about.

    Not easy in these Covid times, true.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920

    Wouldn’t a flagship policy of tuition fee abolition simply remind people of the last time they stood on that platform ... and then voted to treble them instead?

    But that’s the point.
    Ed Davey needs to set himself against the Lib Dem stupidity of the recent past.
    The problem wasn’t the policy so much, as the fact that they established in the voters’ minds the party’s mendacious duplicity. No-one trusts them, and it’s rather hard to see what they can do about that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Off topic but deliciously scary

    Deep fakes. They are now so good they are close to being perfect. Another year?

    Imagine the chaos they might cause, the crimes that come with. And fret.

    twitter.com/damianburns/status/1365247515898097667?s=21

    Cameo and OnlyFans....
    The potential in almost every area of human life is mind-boggling.

    But let’s stick to politics first. If you can create perfect videos of Politician X saying Terrible Thing Y, then careers and countries can be changed/ruined by a bit of tech. Equally, every embarrassing video that emerges will now be blamed on deepfakery
    It will be a constant battle between DeepFake and DeepFake detectors.
    And no one will know who or what is the truth. We are about to enter a post-truth world (there are signs already). Sit back and think of the ramifications

    Lordy
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    BBC: Why should broadband be taxed so there can be a nationalised dancing contest on telly every Saturday night? What’s liberal about that?

    LVT: deferring payment until point of sale will simply serve to reduce the already poor liquidity of the uk housing stock.

    Tuition Fees: what is liberal about asking lower paid non graduates to subsidise the further education of people who choose to go to Uni?

    Covid Restrictions: yes. It blows my mind the so called liberal party has not been making the government crawl over the coals to justify each and every restriction with transparent analysis of the costs and benefits.

    Weed: a no brainer. Mysterious it hasn’t gained more traction in the uk political debate.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Really pleased to see this piece from GardenWalker. It was certainly worthy of header.

    I still think that for the foreseeable future, the LibDems should withdraw from Westminster. Localism is where their power lies. They should pt their energies and funding into winning councils again. Whether they could extract some of these policies by standing aside in the General and urging voters to go Labour is perhaps also worthy of more thought.

    Also VOOM? If I were being cruel to Sir Ed Davey, I would suggest that is the shorthand equation for the LibDem prospects:

    Vote = 0.0m

    or VOOM.....

    Thank-you, you encouraged me to write it.

    Yes, VOOM is a bit of tough ask for the LDs.
    But it’s a direct lift from the dead parrot sketch so perhaps can/should be read tongue in cheek.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    Just to add, perhaps (taking a leaf out of Labour’s book re. Blair) public repudiation of Clegg and all his works might start to help.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Covid hospital numbers continuing to drop quickly and at an accelerating rate:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Should be at negligible levels before the end of March.

    And a big drop week on week in English hospital deaths:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

    At this rate the lockdown ending is going to look far too slow.
    There’s a balance to be struck. Even if the data supports it the public need to be comfortable stepping back out.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    With deepfakes a political party could literally disinter their most popular but unfortunately deceased leader, and have him/her as their leader again.

    The Tories could reanimate Churchill, or reactivate Mrs Thatcher. Labour could revive Sir Kir ‘Royale’ Starmer, and make him appear as if he’s alive
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Off topic but deliciously scary

    Deep fakes. They are now so good they are close to being perfect. Another year?

    Imagine the chaos they might cause, the crimes that come with. And fret.

    twitter.com/damianburns/status/1365247515898097667?s=21

    Cameo and OnlyFans....
    The potential in almost every area of human life is mind-boggling.

    But let’s stick to politics first. If you can create perfect videos of Politician X saying Terrible Thing Y, then careers and countries can be changed/ruined by a bit of tech. Equally, every embarrassing video that emerges will now be blamed on deepfakery
    It will be a constant battle between DeepFake and DeepFake detectors.
    And no one will know who or what is the truth. We are about to enter a post-truth world (there are signs already). Sit back and think of the ramifications

    Lordy
    People can finally follow their dream leaders, the ones dead or who never got chosen, like the person who once crossed out the name of the candidate on the ballot paper I was counting and wrote in Aneurin Bevin instead.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw on here the other day that abolishing tuition fees would cost something like £5.6bn a year. Is that right? If so its frankly crazy. Its impeding house purchase by the young. How on earth are they going to grow up and become proper Tories if they can't buy their own house? It means that the young are effectively paying even more tax than Nicola's serfs have to reducing their consumption and demand.

    I assumed it would be a lot more than this. If that is all it is I am all for abolition.

    In 2018/19 there were over 2.38 million students enrolled in higher education courses in the United Kingdom, with almost 1.8 million of these being undergraduate students, and over 585 thousand enrolled in postgraduate courses.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/
    That can't be right then. Some of those are Scots and not paying fees but even 2m x £9250 is about £20bn. Which even these days is a lot of money.
    Isn't the issue that not everyone repays their loans? In fact I think most don't. The government is already paying for the amounts left unpaid isn't it?

    So the cost to consider is how much is actually getting repaid. Not the total cost.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Leon said:

    With deepfakes a political party could literally disinter their most popular but unfortunately deceased leader, and have him/her as their leader again.

    The Tories could reanimate Churchill, or reactivate Mrs Thatcher. Labour could revive Sir Kir ‘Royale’ Starmer, and make him appear as if he’s alive

    Then use AI to have the deepfake image actually make decisions based on what the programme thinks that leader would so.

    The future is here.

    (I think that might have been the policy of the Enclave in Fallout, thinking about it).
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Some interesting policies - but re the beeb - scrap the license and let them finance themselves commercially.

  • kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    With deepfakes a political party could literally disinter their most popular but unfortunately deceased leader, and have him/her as their leader again.

    The Tories could reanimate Churchill, or reactivate Mrs Thatcher. Labour could revive Sir Kir ‘Royale’ Starmer, and make him appear as if he’s alive

    Then use AI to have the deepfake image actually make decisions based on what the programme thinks that leader would so.

    The future is here.

    (I think that might have been the policy of the Enclave in Fallout, thinking about it).
    Can An AI Design Our Tax Policy?

    The AI Economist: Improving Equality and Productivity with AI-Driven Tax Policies

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr2ga3BBMTc&t=80s
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,758

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw on here the other day that abolishing tuition fees would cost something like £5.6bn a year. Is that right? If so its frankly crazy. Its impeding house purchase by the young. How on earth are they going to grow up and become proper Tories if they can't buy their own house? It means that the young are effectively paying even more tax than Nicola's serfs have to reducing their consumption and demand.

    I assumed it would be a lot more than this. If that is all it is I am all for abolition.

    In 2018/19 there were over 2.38 million students enrolled in higher education courses in the United Kingdom, with almost 1.8 million of these being undergraduate students, and over 585 thousand enrolled in postgraduate courses.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/
    That can't be right then. Some of those are Scots and not paying fees but even 2m x £9250 is about £20bn. Which even these days is a lot of money.
    Isn't the issue that not everyone repays their loans? In fact I think most don't. The government is already paying for the amounts left unpaid isn't it?

    So the cost to consider is how much is actually getting repaid. Not the total cost.
    No, that makes it worse. I was looking at the cost of what was getting pumped into our University sector every year. With the current, practically penal, level of interest the write offs must be far, far larger. My daughter has been repaying loans from her time at a London University for a couple of years now and the principal is still going up. She will probably be paying a graduate tax until it is written off.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Just to add, perhaps (taking a leaf out of Labour’s book re. Blair) public repudiation of Clegg and all his works might start to help.

    Clegg fucked the LDs.
    It’s doesn’t say much about the party that he became leader because he beat Simon Hughes (argh) and Chris Huhne (double argh).

    What Clegg did get right is positioning the Libs as a moderating force on either Con or Lab: Swindon was very very stupid to pretend she was “the next PM”.
  • Another LibDem policy could be a 'moral foreign policy'.

    Based on workers rights, persecution of minorities, environmental protection and such like.

    It would link into International Aid and trade policies and would, for example, bring trade with China to an effective halt.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    Or we could go back in history. Have Oliver Cromwell as Home Secretary. Or Genghis Khan. He’d sort out the migrant issue.

    Generate all the policies by computer algorithms so they have the perfect mix of populism and effectiveness. Then present them to the people via a deepfake of Alexander the Great, or JFK minus the sexual issues

    I’m only half joking. Or not joking at all. This is probably our future. Real politicians have human failings. Deepfakes will be better
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw on here the other day that abolishing tuition fees would cost something like £5.6bn a year. Is that right? If so its frankly crazy. Its impeding house purchase by the young. How on earth are they going to grow up and become proper Tories if they can't buy their own house? It means that the young are effectively paying even more tax than Nicola's serfs have to reducing their consumption and demand.

    I assumed it would be a lot more than this. If that is all it is I am all for abolition.

    In 2018/19 there were over 2.38 million students enrolled in higher education courses in the United Kingdom, with almost 1.8 million of these being undergraduate students, and over 585 thousand enrolled in postgraduate courses.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/
    That can't be right then. Some of those are Scots and not paying fees but even 2m x £9250 is about £20bn. Which even these days is a lot of money.
    Isn't the issue that not everyone repays their loans? In fact I think most don't. The government is already paying for the amounts left unpaid isn't it?

    So the cost to consider is how much is actually getting repaid. Not the total cost.
    The further issue with tuition fees is that the money has already been spent by universities, because of the convoluted way the funding system works.

    So actually, the government has borrowed money to pay for services that it will not be refunded for that it reclaims through a complicated, expensive and badly managed system which will never reclaim more than about a third of it, in order to keep that borrowing off the books and fund universities most of whom fail to spend that money intelligently.

    If your head hurts, I’ve explained it right.

    It was a daft proposal, and entirely typical of Lord Browne - a man who, let it not be forgotten, could very easily have been doing jail time for perjury at the time he wrote it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Leon said:

    With deepfakes a political party could literally disinter their most popular but unfortunately deceased leader, and have him/her as their leader again.

    The Tories could reanimate Churchill, or reactivate Mrs Thatcher. Labour could revive Sir Kir ‘Royale’ Starmer, and make him appear as if he’s alive

    I won’t believe Deep Fakes are a thing until I hear Tom Cruise do the Neil Kinnock speech about a “Labour council(!)”.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,845
    edited February 2021
    @Gardenwalker

    Excellent stuff. I like a lot of it and the bits I don't I can live with. If the LDs adopt this, and Starmer keeps on with the flags and the Red Wally focus groups to guide Labour Party policy, I could possibly be turning yellow.

    Although I would need some sort of medication before going to the polling station.
  • I bet Ben Johnson would have been right up for some inappropriate behaviour with his subordinates.

    https://twitter.com/oldnorthroad/status/1365790044875874307?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited February 2021

    I bet Ben Johnson would have been right up for some inappropriate behaviour with his subordinates.

    twitter.com/oldnorthroad/status/1365790044875874307?s=20

    Like Andrew Cuomo allegedly?

    Second ex-aide accuses Andrew Cuomo of sexual harassment

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/28/second-ex-aide-accuses-andrew-cuomo-of-sexual-harassment
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    I bet Ben Johnson would have been right up for some inappropriate behaviour with his subordinates.

    https://twitter.com/oldnorthroad/status/1365790044875874307?s=20

    I have actually scared myself thinking about this. It is, almost certainly, the future. Quite terrifying.

    I may have to pour my angst into a new rhyolite strap-on
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730

    Covid hospital numbers continuing to drop quickly and at an accelerating rate:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Should be at negligible levels before the end of March.

    And a big drop week on week in English hospital deaths:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

    At this rate the lockdown ending is going to look far too slow.
    If it looks too slow, it can be speeded up.

    But there are two things to say here:

    1) Schools reopening and seven hundred and fifty gazillion tests a week that go with it will inevitably see cases rise even if hospitalisations etc keep going on the right track, so people will still be nervous until they get that second jab;

    2) It’s a damn sight easier and more sensible to operate in the worst case scenario for lockdown and then please everyone by saying you can go more quickly than saying ‘we’ll open next week’ followed by another three months of lockdown which happened no longer ago than December.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Why is @Casino_Royale banned?
  • Germany has classed France’s Covid-battered Moselle region as a high-risk area for virus variants, triggering tougher entry requirements at the border between the two neighbours.

    France’s eastern Moselle region has been listed as an area “at particularly high risk of infection due to widespread occurrence of Sars-CoV-2 virus variants”, Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for disease control announced.

    From Tuesday, cross-border travellers from Moselle will need to be able to show a recent negative coronavirus test.

    Germany has already introduced tough checks at its borders with the Czech Republic and Austria’s Tyrol region, ignoring calls from Brussels to keep borders within the bloc open. The checks at the Moselle crossing will be less strict, with random stops and requests for negative tests rather than every vehicle being stopped.
  • In danger of turning Andy into a martyr with these draconian punishments.

    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1366040790401748992?s=20
  • Mexico, where Reuters reports that president President Andres Manuel López Obrador is expected to ask Joe Biden to consider sharing part of the US coronavirus vaccine supply at a virtual summit on Monday.

    Tricky for Biden.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Germany has classed France’s Covid-battered Moselle region as a high-risk area for virus variants, triggering tougher entry requirements at the border between the two neighbours.

    France’s eastern Moselle region has been listed as an area “at particularly high risk of infection due to widespread occurrence of Sars-CoV-2 virus variants”, Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for disease control announced.

    From Tuesday, cross-border travellers from Moselle will need to be able to show a recent negative coronavirus test.

    Germany has already introduced tough checks at its borders with the Czech Republic and Austria’s Tyrol region, ignoring calls from Brussels to keep borders within the bloc open. The checks at the Moselle crossing will be less strict, with random stops and requests for negative tests rather than every vehicle being stopped.

    Jesus, France, just lockdown already
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Why is @Casino_Royale banned?

    I did notice that he dropped the c-bomb on the last thread. Don’t know if that is ban-worthy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited February 2021
    Leon said:

    Germany has classed France’s Covid-battered Moselle region as a high-risk area for virus variants, triggering tougher entry requirements at the border between the two neighbours.

    France’s eastern Moselle region has been listed as an area “at particularly high risk of infection due to widespread occurrence of Sars-CoV-2 virus variants”, Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for disease control announced.

    From Tuesday, cross-border travellers from Moselle will need to be able to show a recent negative coronavirus test.

    Germany has already introduced tough checks at its borders with the Czech Republic and Austria’s Tyrol region, ignoring calls from Brussels to keep borders within the bloc open. The checks at the Moselle crossing will be less strict, with random stops and requests for negative tests rather than every vehicle being stopped.

    Jesus, France, just lockdown already
    Just as Boris dithered too much, France and Germany have made exactly the same mistakes. Germany's Diet Lockdown was a disaster and now France are messing about again.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited February 2021

    Why is @Casino_Royale banned?

    I did notice that he dropped the c-bomb on the last thread. Don’t know if that is ban-worthy.
    He mentioned Clegg? Or something about C++?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Why is @Casino_Royale banned?

    I did notice that he dropped the c-bomb on the last thread. Don’t know if that is ban-worthy.
    He mentioned Clegg?
    I mean if he mentioned Blair I could understand it, but Clegg :wink:
  • ydoethur said:

    Covid hospital numbers continuing to drop quickly and at an accelerating rate:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Should be at negligible levels before the end of March.

    And a big drop week on week in English hospital deaths:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

    At this rate the lockdown ending is going to look far too slow.
    If it looks too slow, it can be speeded up.

    But there are two things to say here:

    1) Schools reopening and seven hundred and fifty gazillion tests a week that go with it will inevitably see cases rise even if hospitalisations etc keep going on the right track, so people will still be nervous until they get that second jab;

    2) It’s a damn sight easier and more sensible to operate in the worst case scenario for lockdown and then please everyone by saying you can go more quickly than saying ‘we’ll open next week’ followed by another three months of lockdown which happened no longer ago than December.
    Totally different situation from December with vaccination.

    Every day hundreds of thousands more people feel safe because its now two weeks since they were vaccinated.

    And every day millions more people feel safer because new infections are falling.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw on here the other day that abolishing tuition fees would cost something like £5.6bn a year. Is that right? If so its frankly crazy. Its impeding house purchase by the young. How on earth are they going to grow up and become proper Tories if they can't buy their own house? It means that the young are effectively paying even more tax than Nicola's serfs have to reducing their consumption and demand.

    I assumed it would be a lot more than this. If that is all it is I am all for abolition.

    In 2018/19 there were over 2.38 million students enrolled in higher education courses in the United Kingdom, with almost 1.8 million of these being undergraduate students, and over 585 thousand enrolled in postgraduate courses.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/
    That can't be right then. Some of those are Scots and not paying fees but even 2m x £9250 is about £20bn. Which even these days is a lot of money.
    Isn't the issue that not everyone repays their loans? In fact I think most don't. The government is already paying for the amounts left unpaid isn't it?

    So the cost to consider is how much is actually getting repaid. Not the total cost.
    No, that makes it worse. I was looking at the cost of what was getting pumped into our University sector every year. With the current, practically penal, level of interest the write offs must be far, far larger. My daughter has been repaying loans from her time at a London University for a couple of years now and the principal is still going up. She will probably be paying a graduate tax until it is written off.
    Yes some people will be repaying interest beyond the original principal but I think the average is paying less than the principal, not more than it.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Leon said:

    Germany has classed France’s Covid-battered Moselle region as a high-risk area for virus variants, triggering tougher entry requirements at the border between the two neighbours.

    France’s eastern Moselle region has been listed as an area “at particularly high risk of infection due to widespread occurrence of Sars-CoV-2 virus variants”, Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for disease control announced.

    From Tuesday, cross-border travellers from Moselle will need to be able to show a recent negative coronavirus test.

    Germany has already introduced tough checks at its borders with the Czech Republic and Austria’s Tyrol region, ignoring calls from Brussels to keep borders within the bloc open. The checks at the Moselle crossing will be less strict, with random stops and requests for negative tests rather than every vehicle being stopped.

    Jesus, France, just lockdown already
    Just as Boris dithered too much, France and Germany have made exactly the same mistakes. Germany's Diet Lockdown was a disaster and now France are messing about again.
    Ursula will be very unhappy if Germany imposes more border restrictions...........
  • Floater said:

    Leon said:

    Germany has classed France’s Covid-battered Moselle region as a high-risk area for virus variants, triggering tougher entry requirements at the border between the two neighbours.

    France’s eastern Moselle region has been listed as an area “at particularly high risk of infection due to widespread occurrence of Sars-CoV-2 virus variants”, Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for disease control announced.

    From Tuesday, cross-border travellers from Moselle will need to be able to show a recent negative coronavirus test.

    Germany has already introduced tough checks at its borders with the Czech Republic and Austria’s Tyrol region, ignoring calls from Brussels to keep borders within the bloc open. The checks at the Moselle crossing will be less strict, with random stops and requests for negative tests rather than every vehicle being stopped.

    Jesus, France, just lockdown already
    Just as Boris dithered too much, France and Germany have made exactly the same mistakes. Germany's Diet Lockdown was a disaster and now France are messing about again.
    Ursula will be very unhappy if Germany imposes more border restrictions...........
    That was another moment of insanity from VDL at the start of the pandemic lambasting countries for closing their borders.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,865
    Will the thought of that increase vaccination rates in certain parts of North London?
  • Why is @Casino_Royale banned?

    He said something unpleasant about Radiohead in the musical discussions last night?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730

    ydoethur said:

    Covid hospital numbers continuing to drop quickly and at an accelerating rate:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

    Should be at negligible levels before the end of March.

    And a big drop week on week in English hospital deaths:

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

    At this rate the lockdown ending is going to look far too slow.
    If it looks too slow, it can be speeded up.

    But there are two things to say here:

    1) Schools reopening and seven hundred and fifty gazillion tests a week that go with it will inevitably see cases rise even if hospitalisations etc keep going on the right track, so people will still be nervous until they get that second jab;

    2) It’s a damn sight easier and more sensible to operate in the worst case scenario for lockdown and then please everyone by saying you can go more quickly than saying ‘we’ll open next week’ followed by another three months of lockdown which happened no longer ago than December.
    Totally different situation from December with vaccination.

    Every day hundreds of thousands more people feel safe because its now two weeks since they were vaccinated.

    And every day millions more people feel safer because new infections are falling.
    Yes, so hopefully the worst case scenario will be avoided and we’ll be mostly open by May even as vaccines keep being jabbed in arms.

    But better to hope for that and promise July than the other way around.

    Interestingly, they are already slightly softening their stance on school reopening - masks are now set to be ‘strongly advised’ not ‘compulsory.’ Hopefully, that is a sign of the greater optimism.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    If weather like this continues, that won’t be a problem.

    If it’s like it was fortnight ago...
  • Leon said:

    Germany has classed France’s Covid-battered Moselle region as a high-risk area for virus variants, triggering tougher entry requirements at the border between the two neighbours.

    France’s eastern Moselle region has been listed as an area “at particularly high risk of infection due to widespread occurrence of Sars-CoV-2 virus variants”, Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for disease control announced.

    From Tuesday, cross-border travellers from Moselle will need to be able to show a recent negative coronavirus test.

    Germany has already introduced tough checks at its borders with the Czech Republic and Austria’s Tyrol region, ignoring calls from Brussels to keep borders within the bloc open. The checks at the Moselle crossing will be less strict, with random stops and requests for negative tests rather than every vehicle being stopped.

    Jesus, France, just lockdown already
    They've already got a 6pm to 6am curfew.

    How much harder are they going to lockdown?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,758

    Leon said:

    Germany has classed France’s Covid-battered Moselle region as a high-risk area for virus variants, triggering tougher entry requirements at the border between the two neighbours.

    France’s eastern Moselle region has been listed as an area “at particularly high risk of infection due to widespread occurrence of Sars-CoV-2 virus variants”, Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for disease control announced.

    From Tuesday, cross-border travellers from Moselle will need to be able to show a recent negative coronavirus test.

    Germany has already introduced tough checks at its borders with the Czech Republic and Austria’s Tyrol region, ignoring calls from Brussels to keep borders within the bloc open. The checks at the Moselle crossing will be less strict, with random stops and requests for negative tests rather than every vehicle being stopped.

    Jesus, France, just lockdown already
    Just as Boris dithered too much, France and Germany have made exactly the same mistakes. Germany's Diet Lockdown was a disaster and now France are messing about again.
    And yet their daily death toll still remains significantly less than ours. What the hell happened in January? The numbers suggest to me that Kent was not slightly but significantly more lethal than the original variant.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Great to have a new contributor to the headers. Thanks Gardenwalker
This discussion has been closed.