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Rishi still betting favourite to succeed Boris but Keir not far behind – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,168
edited February 2021 in General
imageRishi still betting favourite to succeed Boris but Keir not far behind – politicalbetting.com

The chart from BetData.io shows the 6-month trend on Betfair’s next prime minister market. Sunak and Starmer remain the top two but they are no longer as strong as they were.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    His name is Sunak
    Oh, Rishi Sunak
    He makes me happy
    On Budget Day
    Cos Keir Starmer's
    A real charmer
    But he might take
    My ISAs
    Away.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Sunak's at 24%. Given that his giveaways have cost about £400 billion, I make that about £15 billion per point.

    But it'll evaporate just as quickly when he starts to claw some of it back.

    And A YEAR after the start of the pandemic, three million people still aren't covered by his hugely expensive schemes.
  • rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    On the face of it in order to try and divert attention from the procurement issue they invented a vaccine effectiveness/safety issue and so massively compounded the problems.

  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Fishing said:

    Sunak's at 24%. Given that his giveaways have cost about £400 billion, I make that about £15 billion per point.

    But it'll evaporate just as quickly when he starts to claw some of it back.

    And A YEAR after the start of the pandemic, three million people still aren't covered by his hugely expensive schemes.

    Keir Starmer is 58 years old. I make that over two and three quarter years per point.

    Next year, all else being equal, he'll improve his years:points ratio very slightly. Remind me again why dividing random numbers by each other is meaningful?
  • I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.
  • OT

    Great figures from Lincolnshire this evening on Look North.

    91% of over 65s in the country have now had their first jab. That's not been offered, but actually had. In addition 15% of those aged 16 to 64 have had the jab.

    I can't edit this but it should say 'county' not 'country'. Apologies for being inadvertently misleading.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Endillion said:

    Fishing said:

    Sunak's at 24%. Given that his giveaways have cost about £400 billion, I make that about £15 billion per point.

    But it'll evaporate just as quickly when he starts to claw some of it back.

    And A YEAR after the start of the pandemic, three million people still aren't covered by his hugely expensive schemes.

    Keir Starmer is 58 years old. I make that over two and three quarter years per point.

    Next year, all else being equal, he'll improve his years:points ratio very slightly. Remind me again why dividing random numbers by each other is meaningful?
    Nobody has said that being so many years old is rewarded by the voters.

    Plenty of people have said that bribing them with their own money is.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    That would indeed be a radical way to lose a hell of a lot of votes.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Personally I think Starmer and Sunak are both heavily overrated, but in different ways. I don't think Sunak is very competent, but he has good electoral appeal at the moment. But I don't think that SKS has the electoral appeal that Labour's members thought he had. That was why many on the left held their noses and voted for him over more ideologically sympathetic opponents. So I'd personally bet against both favourites at these odds.
  • Fishing said:



    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.

    Because it removes the politics from it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Fishing said:



    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.

    Because it removes the politics from it.
    It doesn't, because politicians choose the membership of the commission and politicians still have to debate and implement their findings.
  • Fishing said:

    Fishing said:



    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.

    Because it removes the politics from it.
    It doesn't, because politicians choose the membership of the commission and politicians still have to debate and implement their findings.
    Or reject them.

    Now is the time for tax cuts not tax rises, a fiscal stimulus. Simply removing furlough will seem like enough of a tax rise relative to the current position, a stimulus of tax cuts to help the sectors damaged by the pandemic will help ensure there's a successful tax base to get revenues from in future years.

    If Sunak chooses to raise taxes during a recession he doesn't deserve to be Tory leader or PM.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Fishing said:

    Endillion said:

    Fishing said:

    Sunak's at 24%. Given that his giveaways have cost about £400 billion, I make that about £15 billion per point.

    But it'll evaporate just as quickly when he starts to claw some of it back.

    And A YEAR after the start of the pandemic, three million people still aren't covered by his hugely expensive schemes.

    Keir Starmer is 58 years old. I make that over two and three quarter years per point.

    Next year, all else being equal, he'll improve his years:points ratio very slightly. Remind me again why dividing random numbers by each other is meaningful?
    Nobody has said that being so many years old is rewarded by the voters.

    Plenty of people have said that bribing them with their own money is.
    Yeah, but are you really saying the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a zero per cent shot for next PM unless he finds at least £15bn of unplanned expenditure to give away?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Gawd bless er. She really is turning into everyone’s marvelousy-somehow-still-alive great grandmother

    She’s also right. Being vaccinated is an act of public selflessness not just personal interest. Frau Merkel would do well to listen

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/25/queen-says-her-covid-jab-didnt-hurt-at-all?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited February 2021
    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,476
    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    How is it parasitical? They've lowered tax, companies want to come. We should do the same.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    How is it parasitical? They've lowered tax, companies want to come. We should do the same.

    They’re a tax shelter that previously sheltered behind the UK’s quasi-veto in the EU

    It’s not a question of morality, just realpolitik. We saw how quick Brussels was, to throw Dublin under a tram on the vaccine issue. When the plague is over France and Germany will come for the little nations that have got fat from tax farming. Ditto Luxembourg
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    "'Think about others rather than yourselves': Queen's astonishing intervention over vaccine take up as she says jab 'didn't hurt at all' when she had it and suggests those refusing it are selfish

    In a video call, Queen encouraged those with doubts to 'think about other people rather than themselves'
    The 94-year-old monarch said her jab last month 'didn't hurt at all' and had made her 'feel protected'
    Her Majesty said it was remarkable how quickly the inoculation programme had been put into action
    NHS vaccine chief hailed monarch's remarks an 'incredibly important vote of confidence' in the programme"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9301373/Queen-intervenes-vaccine-rollout-encourage-Britons-jabbed.html
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    But it's not just Ireland.

    Corporation tax rates In the EU:

    Hungary is 9%, Bulgaria 10%, Ireland 12.5%, Cyprus 12.5%, Lithuania 15%, and then you about seven or eight countries about where the UK is is (i.e. 18-22%) - Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal, Norway, and Denmark.

    In the old days it was Ireland on 12.5% and everyone else on 30+%. Competition between nations worked and drove down rates everywhere.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    How is it parasitical? They've lowered tax, companies want to come. We should do the same.

    They’re a tax shelter that previously sheltered behind the UK’s quasi-veto in the EU

    It’s not a question of morality, just realpolitik. We saw how quick Brussels was, to throw Dublin under a tram on the vaccine issue. When the plague is over France and Germany will come for the little nations that have got fat from tax farming. Ditto Luxembourg
    I would point out that in 2010, the EU attempted to blackmail Ireland into raising corporation tax rates in return for a bail out. Ireland said "no". If they said "no" then, I can't see what incentive they'd have to say "yes" now. Plus, there's a clear blocking list of states with 15% or below corporation tax rates in the EU.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited February 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    But it's not just Ireland.

    Corporation tax rates In the EU:

    Hungary is 9%, Bulgaria 10%, Ireland 12.5%, Cyprus 12.5%, Lithuania 15%, and then you about seven or eight countries about where the UK is is (i.e. 18-22%) - Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal, Norway, and Denmark.

    In the old days it was Ireland on 12.5% and everyone else on 30+%. Competition between nations worked and drove down rates everywhere.
    But Ireland is the one that has got luxuriantly rich, by doing nothing but lower taxes (and by speaking English)

    The EU is intent on fiscal unity. Because the euro fails otherwise. I don’t see how that can be squared with wildly varying tax rates, esp Corp tax. That’s what Franco-Germany will go for first. Nations outside the euro might be fine, for now (Bulgaria, Hungary). Ireland is in the euro
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    How is it parasitical? They've lowered tax, companies want to come. We should do the same.

    They’re a tax shelter that previously sheltered behind the UK’s quasi-veto in the EU

    It’s not a question of morality, just realpolitik. We saw how quick Brussels was, to throw Dublin under a tram on the vaccine issue. When the plague is over France and Germany will come for the little nations that have got fat from tax farming. Ditto Luxembourg
    I would point out that in 2010, the EU attempted to blackmail Ireland into raising corporation tax rates in return for a bail out. Ireland said "no". If they said "no" then, I can't see what incentive they'd have to say "yes" now. Plus, there's a clear blocking list of states with 15% or below corporation tax rates in the EU.
    Naive
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    But it's not just Ireland.

    Corporation tax rates In the EU:

    Hungary is 9%, Bulgaria 10%, Ireland 12.5%, Cyprus 12.5%, Lithuania 15%, and then you about seven or eight countries about where the UK is is (i.e. 18-22%) - Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal, Norway, and Denmark.

    In the old days it was Ireland on 12.5% and everyone else on 30+%. Competition between nations worked and drove down rates everywhere.
    But Ireland is the one that has got luxuriantly rich, by doing nothing but lower taxes (and by speaking English)

    The EU is intent on fiscal unity. Because the euro fails otherwise. I don’t see how that can be squared with wildly varying tax rates, esp Corp tax. That’s what Franco-Germany will go for first. Nations outside the euro might be fine, for now (Bulgaria, Hungary). Ireland is in the euro
    I've had this argument on PB for about a decade. And every year, Ireland doesn't reduce its corporation tax rate, and everyone else reduces theirs.

    So far, I've been right.

    Now, the world could change. But it seems that with Brexit, the EU Commission's leverage over Ireland has become less rather than more.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Fishing said:

    Personally I think Starmer and Sunak are both heavily overrated, but in different ways. I don't think Sunak is very competent, but he has good electoral appeal at the moment. But I don't think that SKS has the electoral appeal that Labour's members thought he had. That was why many on the left held their noses and voted for him over more ideologically sympathetic opponents. So I'd personally bet against both favourites at these odds.

    Me too
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    But it's not just Ireland.

    Corporation tax rates In the EU:

    Hungary is 9%, Bulgaria 10%, Ireland 12.5%, Cyprus 12.5%, Lithuania 15%, and then you about seven or eight countries about where the UK is is (i.e. 18-22%) - Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal, Norway, and Denmark.

    In the old days it was Ireland on 12.5% and everyone else on 30+%. Competition between nations worked and drove down rates everywhere.
    But Ireland is the one that has got luxuriantly rich, by doing nothing but lower taxes (and by speaking English)

    The EU is intent on fiscal unity. Because the euro fails otherwise. I don’t see how that can be squared with wildly varying tax rates, esp Corp tax. That’s what Franco-Germany will go for first. Nations outside the euro might be fine, for now (Bulgaria, Hungary). Ireland is in the euro
    I've had this argument on PB for about a decade. And every year, Ireland doesn't reduce its corporation tax rate, and everyone else reduces theirs.

    So far, I've been right.

    Now, the world could change. But it seems that with Brexit, the EU Commission's leverage over Ireland has become less rather than more.
    Well, yes, the world has changed. We’ve also had a globe-destroying plague since then. With the EU coming close to unifying debt and borrowing to help Italy and Spain etc

    Right now Ireland is like, say, Scotland in the UK: if Scotland benefited from using sterling, free trading in the UK, relying on London to protect it in disputes, but also simultaneously having a corporation tax rate of 10% and saying ‘please headquarter your company in Edinburgh not London, and pay tax to Scots, so we can be richer than everyone else in the UK’

    How long would the English tolerate that? Not long, and we are all Brits united on one island.

    I don’t see Ireland’s position as sustainable within the eurozone, IF the eurozone is intent on proper fiscal harmony. And I think it is. They have no choice now
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Fishing said:

    Personally I think Starmer and Sunak are both heavily overrated, but in different ways. I don't think Sunak is very competent, but he has good electoral appeal at the moment. But I don't think that SKS has the electoral appeal that Labour's members thought he had. That was why many on the left held their noses and voted for him over more ideologically sympathetic opponents. So I'd personally bet against both favourites at these odds.

    I agree entirely about SKS.... his first 12 months have been overshadowed by Covid (rightly so) but I still feel a sense of missed opportunities. Another mill stone around his neck is Scotland - where Labour should hoover up lost voters over the Salmond bungle and also BREXIT (and I speak as someone who voted to stay in) where the Party remains stuck between its core REMAIN vote and LEAVE.... May seems like an almighty test for the Reds I feel.
  • The Netherlands is the dodgy tax shelter for Corporations in Europe, they face greater pressure but have more protection due to being a core member and a reliable member of the tight fisted squad.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    But it's not just Ireland.

    Corporation tax rates In the EU:

    Hungary is 9%, Bulgaria 10%, Ireland 12.5%, Cyprus 12.5%, Lithuania 15%, and then you about seven or eight countries about where the UK is is (i.e. 18-22%) - Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal, Norway, and Denmark.

    In the old days it was Ireland on 12.5% and everyone else on 30+%. Competition between nations worked and drove down rates everywhere.
    But Ireland is the one that has got luxuriantly rich, by doing nothing but lower taxes (and by speaking English)

    The EU is intent on fiscal unity. Because the euro fails otherwise. I don’t see how that can be squared with wildly varying tax rates, esp Corp tax. That’s what Franco-Germany will go for first. Nations outside the euro might be fine, for now (Bulgaria, Hungary). Ireland is in the euro
    I've had this argument on PB for about a decade. And every year, Ireland doesn't reduce its corporation tax rate, and everyone else reduces theirs.

    So far, I've been right.

    Now, the world could change. But it seems that with Brexit, the EU Commission's leverage over Ireland has become less rather than more.
    Well, yes, the world has changed. We’ve also had a globe-destroying plague since then. With the EU coming close to unifying debt and borrowing to help Italy and Spain etc

    Right now Ireland is like, say, Scotland in the UK: if Scotland benefited from using sterling, free trading in the UK, relying on London to protect it in disputes, but also simultaneously having a corporation tax rate of 10% and saying ‘please headquarter your company in Edinburgh not London, and pay tax to Scots, so we can be richer than everyone else in the UK’

    How long would the English tolerate that? Not long, and we are all Brits united on one island.

    I don’t see Ireland’s position as sustainable within the eurozone, IF the eurozone is intent on proper fiscal harmony. And I think it is. They have no choice now
    But it's not just Ireland, it's a bunch of other countries too.

    And what's the pitch: change your tax rates, or we'll kick you out? I think Ireland would probably say "cheerio", especially if the UK was thriving outside the EU.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206

    The Netherlands is the dodgy tax shelter for Corporations in Europe, they face greater pressure but have more protection due to being a core member and a reliable member of the tight fisted squad.

    That's a very good point: everyone fixates on headline tax rates, but thereare many, many things governments can do to lower effective tax burdens. It's no coincidence that Starbucks routes all their European profits through the Netherlands.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Did anyone see Noel Gallagher's comments about Radiohead:

    “I’m aware that Radiohead have never had a fucking bad review. I reckon if Thom Yorke fucking shit into a light bulb and started blowing it like an empty beer bottle it’d probably get 9 out of 10 in fucking Mojo. I’m aware of that.”
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    "Face masks given out by Belgian government may contain toxic particles
    Research found that the masks contained nanoparticles of silver and titanium oxide."

    https://www.politico.eu/article/free-masks-distributed-by-belgian-government-contain-toxic-particles/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    edited February 2021
    BBC News - Mr Potato Head to lose "Mr" title in gender-neutral rebrand
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56200811

    I thought covid pandemic was supposed to put an end to this nonsense?
  • Russia. The Russian policy seems to be to get a protective bubble to protect Putin and if others die, they die.

    Supposedly 56k deaths by end of December, excess deaths of 350k by end of December. That's more than double our excess deaths per capita.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206

    BBC News - Mr Potato Head to lose "Mr" title in gender-neutral rebrand
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56200811

    I thought covid pandemic was supposed to put an end to this nonsense?

    I'm glad that all @Leon's letter writing was not in vain.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    But it's not just Ireland.

    Corporation tax rates In the EU:

    Hungary is 9%, Bulgaria 10%, Ireland 12.5%, Cyprus 12.5%, Lithuania 15%, and then you about seven or eight countries about where the UK is is (i.e. 18-22%) - Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal, Norway, and Denmark.

    In the old days it was Ireland on 12.5% and everyone else on 30+%. Competition between nations worked and drove down rates everywhere.
    It would sure solve a few headaches if several of those countries left the EU. Ireland only joined because the UK joined, eastern European countries accession was accelerated because Britain was so keen on expansion. So it would be certainly appropriate if the UK could take with it some of the problems it helped bring.

    Logically the EU should have a single corporation tax rate - for eurozone countries collected by the ECB, but probably not going to happen.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    But it's not just Ireland.

    Corporation tax rates In the EU:

    Hungary is 9%, Bulgaria 10%, Ireland 12.5%, Cyprus 12.5%, Lithuania 15%, and then you about seven or eight countries about where the UK is is (i.e. 18-22%) - Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal, Norway, and Denmark.

    In the old days it was Ireland on 12.5% and everyone else on 30+%. Competition between nations worked and drove down rates everywhere.
    It would sure solve a few headaches if several of those countries left the EU. Ireland only joined because the UK joined, eastern European countries accession was accelerated because Britain was so keen on expansion. So it would be certainly appropriate if the UK could take with it some of the problems it helped bring.

    Logically the EU should have a single corporation tax rate - for eurozone countries collected by the ECB, but probably not going to happen.
    Is anyone within the EU seriously describing those countries as problems?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    But it's not just Ireland.

    Corporation tax rates In the EU:

    Hungary is 9%, Bulgaria 10%, Ireland 12.5%, Cyprus 12.5%, Lithuania 15%, and then you about seven or eight countries about where the UK is is (i.e. 18-22%) - Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal, Norway, and Denmark.

    In the old days it was Ireland on 12.5% and everyone else on 30+%. Competition between nations worked and drove down rates everywhere.
    It would sure solve a few headaches if several of those countries left the EU. Ireland only joined because the UK joined, eastern European countries accession was accelerated because Britain was so keen on expansion. So it would be certainly appropriate if the UK could take with it some of the problems it helped bring.

    Logically the EU should have a single corporation tax rate - for eurozone countries collected by the ECB, but probably not going to happen.
    In the US, there is both a Federal corporation tax rate, and a State one.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Facts for the day:

    Only two US State do not have their own Corporation (or Gross Receipts) tax:

    - Wyoming
    - South Dakota

    The rest do.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    It’s hardly the fault of the Netherlands and Ireland, that so many EU countries have such globally uncompetitive corporation tax rates.

    A signal of intent from the Chancellor at the Budget, would be to drop this to 12% or even 10%.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    In Germany the policy is to have a dose already in storage for every dose administered, so there is a guarantee that when you have a first dose that there is a second dose with your name on it in a fridge or freezer in your Bundesland (or even more locally). It is, in my opinion, a stupid policy. But it means for the first 3 weeks of a vaccine (and AZ only started here less than 3 weeks ago) the absolute maximum % of doses administered can be 50%.

    Of course it's going to be a lot less than that because there's a lag between doses being delivered to a Bundesland and actually getting into someone's arm. Probably going to be significantly longer in Germany because a doctor has to be involved in every vaccination, and there are forms to fill in. And because the health system is so fragmented here.

    This is made worse by the decision not recommend one vaccine for over 65s, when this is the group that has first priority. There seems to be a lack of coordination to redirect the AZ doses to younger priority groups, also partly due to the fragmented systems here, but also the incredible lack of any national leadership (which has been a problem with this pandemic in Germany for over a year now).

    There's also an additional reporting lag between jabs happening and getting counted nationally. These lags obviously make a much bigger difference in percentage terms at the start.

    No doubt there is also greater hesitancy about the AZ (which already started in December with the reports that it had lower efficacy AND the confusion about the trials and accidentally giving people half a dose and so on, which made people already somewhat hesitant about any vaccine, much more hesitant about this one).

    But the reporting of this - "only 13% of doses in Germany administered because people don't trust the vaccine" - is in itself totally irresponsible, people are going to be reasonably thinking "if the vast majority of people are refusing it, then I should too" and the problem will get even worse.

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    Because Taiwan is semiconductor island.


    Isn't the notion that the US are trying to rebuild domestic semiconductor capacity a tacit acknowledgement that they aren't going to fight China for Taiwan.

    The west did absolutely fuck all of any moment when China turned Fiery Cross Reef and Mischief Reef (in the Spratlys) into massive military bases. The west will almost certainly do fuck all when they take the next step of occupying Taiping then Dongsha.

    The west needs to think about the post Taiwan future because that battle is almost certainly already lost. The Philippines, Vietnam and PNG are where the effort and focus needs to be.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Dura_Ace said:



    Because Taiwan is semiconductor island.


    Isn't the notion that the US are trying to rebuild domestic semiconductor capacity a tacit acknowledgement that they aren't going to fight China for Taiwan.

    The west did absolutely fuck all of any moment when China turned Fiery Cross Reef and Mischief Reef (in the Spratlys) into massive military bases. The west will almost certainly do fuck all when they take the next step of occupying Taiping then Dongsha.

    The west needs to think about the post Taiwan future because that battle is almost certainly already lost. The Philippines, Vietnam and PNG are where the effort and focus needs to be.
    Surely the Chinese wouldn’t be stupid enough to invade Vietnam again? They got their arses roundly kicked last time (yes, I know they declared a great, overwhelming victory but they still withdrew in confusion having failed to achieve a single one of their actual war aims).
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    OT

    Great figures from Lincolnshire this evening on Look North.

    91% of over 65s in the country have now had their first jab. That's not been offered, but actually had. In addition 15% of those aged 16 to 64 have had the jab.

    I can't edit this but it should say 'county' not 'country'. Apologies for being inadvertently misleading.
    Freudian I’m sure.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Sandpit said:

    It’s hardly the fault of the Netherlands and Ireland, that so many EU countries have such globally uncompetitive corporation tax rates.

    A signal of intent from the Chancellor at the Budget, would be to drop this to 12% or even 10%.

    Contrary to popular opinion, EU corporation tax rates aren't particularly high. Most of the EU is in the mid to low 20s, with even the Nordics in that ballpark that days, and France at 29%. That's below most of the US, Australia, Canada, Japan, etc.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Another in my series on South Africa and India. I don’t think you can discount population immunity in parts of those countries on these figures.


  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    In Germany the policy is to have a dose already in storage for every dose administered, so there is a guarantee that when you have a first dose that there is a second dose with your name on it in a fridge or freezer in your Bundesland (or even more locally). It is, in my opinion, a stupid policy. But it means for the first 3 weeks of a vaccine (and AZ only started here less than 3 weeks ago) the absolute maximum % of doses administered can be 50%.

    Of course it's going to be a lot less than that because there's a lag between doses being delivered to a Bundesland and actually getting into someone's arm. Probably going to be significantly longer in Germany because a doctor has to be involved in every vaccination, and there are forms to fill in. And because the health system is so fragmented here.

    This is made worse by the decision not recommend one vaccine for over 65s, when this is the group that has first priority. There seems to be a lack of coordination to redirect the AZ doses to younger priority groups, also partly due to the fragmented systems here, but also the incredible lack of any national leadership (which has been a problem with this pandemic in Germany for over a year now).

    There's also an additional reporting lag between jabs happening and getting counted nationally. These lags obviously make a much bigger difference in percentage terms at the start.

    No doubt there is also greater hesitancy about the AZ (which already started in December with the reports that it had lower efficacy AND the confusion about the trials and accidentally giving people half a dose and so on, which made people already somewhat hesitant about any vaccine, much more hesitant about this one).

    But the reporting of this - "only 13% of doses in Germany administered because people don't trust the vaccine" - is in itself totally irresponsible, people are going to be reasonably thinking "if the vast majority of people are refusing it, then I should too" and the problem will get even worse.

    What is the German for 'clusterfuck'?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Fishing said:

    Personally I think Starmer and Sunak are both heavily overrated, but in different ways. I don't think Sunak is very competent, but he has good electoral appeal at the moment. But I don't think that SKS has the electoral appeal that Labour's members thought he had. That was why many on the left held their noses and voted for him over more ideologically sympathetic opponents. So I'd personally bet against both favourites at these odds.

    It depends upon your view of the next election. If you think that there's a reasonable chance that Boris Johnson (a) fights it and (b) wins any kind of majority, then one can presumably rule out Starmer and any of the senior players on either side of the Brexit campaign, because under those circumstances it'll surely be time to move on to the next generation by the time Johnson retires.

    At a guess, and already leading Labour 2-0 on promoting female Prime Ministers, the Tories might be minded to go for a non-white leader next time, although if anyone from the 2019 intake defending a Red Wall seat really stands out then they could also be attractive. There are some candidates already in Government, of course, but the next Prime Minister could very well still be on the backbenches.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    DougSeal said:

    Another in my series on South Africa and India. I don’t think you can discount population immunity in parts of those countries on these figures.


    This is dodgy in India:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/25/asia/india-vaccine-trials-covid-ethics-intl-dst-hnk/index.html
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    In Germany the policy is to have a dose already in storage for every dose administered, so there is a guarantee that when you have a first dose that there is a second dose with your name on it in a fridge or freezer in your Bundesland (or even more locally). It is, in my opinion, a stupid policy. But it means for the first 3 weeks of a vaccine (and AZ only started here less than 3 weeks ago) the absolute maximum % of doses administered can be 50%.

    Of course it's going to be a lot less than that because there's a lag between doses being delivered to a Bundesland and actually getting into someone's arm. Probably going to be significantly longer in Germany because a doctor has to be involved in every vaccination, and there are forms to fill in. And because the health system is so fragmented here.

    This is made worse by the decision not recommend one vaccine for over 65s, when this is the group that has first priority. There seems to be a lack of coordination to redirect the AZ doses to younger priority groups, also partly due to the fragmented systems here, but also the incredible lack of any national leadership (which has been a problem with this pandemic in Germany for over a year now).

    There's also an additional reporting lag between jabs happening and getting counted nationally. These lags obviously make a much bigger difference in percentage terms at the start.

    No doubt there is also greater hesitancy about the AZ (which already started in December with the reports that it had lower efficacy AND the confusion about the trials and accidentally giving people half a dose and so on, which made people already somewhat hesitant about any vaccine, much more hesitant about this one).

    But the reporting of this - "only 13% of doses in Germany administered because people don't trust the vaccine" - is in itself totally irresponsible, people are going to be reasonably thinking "if the vast majority of people are refusing it, then I should too" and the problem will get even worse.

    What is the German for 'clusterfuck'?
    I believe it is "Die AstraZeneca"
    How long will it take for the EU to be swimming in lakes of home brewed BioNtech-Pfizer, so that their citizens’ reticence to AZN will cease to matter?
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Dura_Ace said:



    Because Taiwan is semiconductor island.


    Isn't the notion that the US are trying to rebuild domestic semiconductor capacity a tacit acknowledgement that they aren't going to fight China for Taiwan.

    The west did absolutely fuck all of any moment when China turned Fiery Cross Reef and Mischief Reef (in the Spratlys) into massive military bases. The west will almost certainly do fuck all when they take the next step of occupying Taiping then Dongsha.

    The west needs to think about the post Taiwan future because that battle is almost certainly already lost. The Philippines, Vietnam and PNG are where the effort and focus needs to be.
    The west did indeed do xxxx all, however the neighbouring countries (namely ASEAN) themselves were sold out by corrupt political classes who were busy enriching themselves on China's economy and were busy stealing from their own citizens.... not sure what the UK could have done.... our reputation was (is?) in tatters in much of Asia - esp among those who were unhappy about the adventures in Iraq.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751

    Fishing said:

    Personally I think Starmer and Sunak are both heavily overrated, but in different ways. I don't think Sunak is very competent, but he has good electoral appeal at the moment. But I don't think that SKS has the electoral appeal that Labour's members thought he had. That was why many on the left held their noses and voted for him over more ideologically sympathetic opponents. So I'd personally bet against both favourites at these odds.

    It depends upon your view of the next election. If you think that there's a reasonable chance that Boris Johnson (a) fights it and (b) wins any kind of majority, then one can presumably rule out Starmer and any of the senior players on either side of the Brexit campaign, because under those circumstances it'll surely be time to move on to the next generation by the time Johnson retires.

    At a guess, and already leading Labour 2-0 on promoting female Prime Ministers, the Tories might be minded to go for a non-white leader next time, although if anyone from the 2019 intake defending a Red Wall seat really stands out then they could also be attractive. There are some candidates already in Government, of course, but the next Prime Minister could very well still be on the backbenches.
    It seems a long time ago now that that there were all those exclusives on Boris being glum because he couldn’t afford a nanny, his friends leaking he was going to call it a day in the spring, lots of sad violin music about him having the shortest premiership in X decades etc...

    Perhaps he still will step down but there’s not a whisper of it anymore is there? Hard to see beyond a second (reduced) majority for him right now. 12-18 months of wobbly markets and employment stats ahead, before a new boom starts to kick in maybe late 2022 and in full swing by May 2024. He might even choose another pre Christmas election in 2023.

    Next PM market looks a total punt in this context.
  • The vaccine clusterfuck is not the first example of the myth of German efficiency.

    If you want to know what a shambles the country has become in recent years then dig a little deeper into the sheer fiasco surrounding Berlin’s Brandenberg airport. This podcast “How to Fuck Up an Airport” will serve as a good guide:

    https://www.radiospaetkauf.com/ber/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,989
    edited February 2021
    moonshine said:

    Fishing said:

    Personally I think Starmer and Sunak are both heavily overrated, but in different ways. I don't think Sunak is very competent, but he has good electoral appeal at the moment. But I don't think that SKS has the electoral appeal that Labour's members thought he had. That was why many on the left held their noses and voted for him over more ideologically sympathetic opponents. So I'd personally bet against both favourites at these odds.

    It depends upon your view of the next election. If you think that there's a reasonable chance that Boris Johnson (a) fights it and (b) wins any kind of majority, then one can presumably rule out Starmer and any of the senior players on either side of the Brexit campaign, because under those circumstances it'll surely be time to move on to the next generation by the time Johnson retires.

    At a guess, and already leading Labour 2-0 on promoting female Prime Ministers, the Tories might be minded to go for a non-white leader next time, although if anyone from the 2019 intake defending a Red Wall seat really stands out then they could also be attractive. There are some candidates already in Government, of course, but the next Prime Minister could very well still be on the backbenches.
    It seems a long time ago now that that there were all those exclusives on Boris being glum because he couldn’t afford a nanny, his friends leaking he was going to call it a day in the spring, lots of sad violin music about him having the shortest premiership in X decades etc...

    Perhaps he still will step down but there’s not a whisper of it anymore is there? Hard to see beyond a second (reduced) majority for him right now. 12-18 months of wobbly markets and employment stats ahead, before a new boom starts to kick in maybe late 2022 and in full swing by May 2024. He might even choose another pre Christmas election in 2023.

    Next PM market looks a total punt in this context.
    Good post. And I'm on Boris to be out this year. I suppose it comes down to fatigue and legacy. And perhaps third party pressure (yo Symonds) one way or another.

    He has the Covid enquiry to weather and if that is positive (big if) he may feel he has done enough while also realising being PM is too much like hard work.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    BBC News - Mr Potato Head to lose "Mr" title in gender-neutral rebrand
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56200811

    I thought covid pandemic was supposed to put an end to this nonsense?

    Does that mean attention moves next to banning Toy Story?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Dura_Ace said:



    Because Taiwan is semiconductor island.


    Isn't the notion that the US are trying to rebuild domestic semiconductor capacity a tacit acknowledgement that they aren't going to fight China for Taiwan.

    The west did absolutely fuck all of any moment when China turned Fiery Cross Reef and Mischief Reef (in the Spratlys) into massive military bases. The west will almost certainly do fuck all when they take the next step of occupying Taiping then Dongsha.

    The west needs to think about the post Taiwan future because that battle is almost certainly already lost. The Philippines, Vietnam and PNG are where the effort and focus needs to be.
    Why PNG?
  • SmithersSmithers Posts: 24
    edited February 2021
    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    Fishing said:

    Personally I think Starmer and Sunak are both heavily overrated, but in different ways. I don't think Sunak is very competent, but he has good electoral appeal at the moment. But I don't think that SKS has the electoral appeal that Labour's members thought he had. That was why many on the left held their noses and voted for him over more ideologically sympathetic opponents. So I'd personally bet against both favourites at these odds.

    It depends upon your view of the next election. If you think that there's a reasonable chance that Boris Johnson (a) fights it and (b) wins any kind of majority, then one can presumably rule out Starmer and any of the senior players on either side of the Brexit campaign, because under those circumstances it'll surely be time to move on to the next generation by the time Johnson retires.

    At a guess, and already leading Labour 2-0 on promoting female Prime Ministers, the Tories might be minded to go for a non-white leader next time, although if anyone from the 2019 intake defending a Red Wall seat really stands out then they could also be attractive. There are some candidates already in Government, of course, but the next Prime Minister could very well still be on the backbenches.
    It seems a long time ago now that that there were all those exclusives on Boris being glum because he couldn’t afford a nanny, his friends leaking he was going to call it a day in the spring, lots of sad violin music about him having the shortest premiership in X decades etc...

    Perhaps he still will step down but there’s not a whisper of it anymore is there? Hard to see beyond a second (reduced) majority for him right now. 12-18 months of wobbly markets and employment stats ahead, before a new boom starts to kick in maybe late 2022 and in full swing by May 2024. He might even choose another pre Christmas election in 2023.

    Next PM market looks a total punt in this context.
    Good post. And I'm on Boris to be out this year. I suppose it comes down to fatigue and legacy. And perhaps third party pressure (yo Symonds) one way or another.

    He has the Covid enquiry to weather and if that is positive (big if) he may feel he has done enough while also realising being PM is too much like hard work.
    This isn’t what the thread writer said however in any shape or form! He said that he didn’t think Boris would stand down, that he would fight another election.

    I agree with him. Not only because Boris is now doing a good job and seems to have his appetite back but because without the malevolent trio of Cummings, Cain and Lewis the Government now feels and acts like a Government, rather than a bunch of Alt-R anarchists intent on destruction from within.

    And then there’s Carrie. A lady who is young, ambitious, brilliant and full of zest with a proven track record of handling political power. No way will she want to give up the reins of power yet.

    Boris will definitely fight at least one more General Election.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited February 2021
    Smithers said:

    The vaccine clusterfuck is not the first example of the myth of German efficiency.

    If you want to know what a shambles the country has become in recent years then dig a little deeper into the sheer fiasco surrounding Berlin’s Brandenberg airport. This podcast “How to Fuck Up an Airport” will serve as a good guide:

    https://www.radiospaetkauf.com/ber/

    Brandenberg airport is going to be a case study in engineering and architectural screwups for decades to come, as well as being a poster child for the failure of public and private sectors to work efficiently together.

    It would have been cheaper and faster - if politically embarrassing - to have knocked the whole damn thing down in 2011, and started again from a hole in the ground.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    BBC News - Mr Potato Head to lose "Mr" title in gender-neutral rebrand
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56200811

    I thought covid pandemic was supposed to put an end to this nonsense?

    Pathetic.
  • Here's what I don't get about Tories and public spending. We used to have this thing called "capitalism". This is a fairly simple thing - in order to sell your product or service you need to have willing punters who both desire your product or service and have the cash to pay for it.

    Its in everyone's interests for punters to have free cash to consume with, yet increasingly over the last 20 years Tories have seen the idea of poor people being in anything other than poverty as being akin to encouraging their degenerate behaviour.

    Sunak could start with two basic principles:
    1. Social Security (drop "benefits" FFS) is there as a safety net for our economy. In ensuring a minimum standard of living for everyone it ensures the continuation of our way of life as a nation driven by commerce.
    2. Investment - especially long term investment - is golden. By borrowing money to invest in key infrastructure the government enables the better functioning of the economy and delivers a return on that investment. Drop "subsidy" FFS - it should be investment.

    Do these two things and reframe the entire narrative. Its no longer about scroungers getting benefits, its consumers being enabled to keep you in your job buying things. Its not "how can we afford it", its "how can we afford not to". In cities like Manchester the corporation installed things like the pneumatic network enabling industry to move in and power machines. The market could never provide the infrastructure, so local government had to.

    It is the same with fibre broadband, with roads, with railway electrification, with major renewable energy projects etc etc. Flip the debate, make investment the goal. Too many Tories respond to almost every public investment project with "how will we pay for this". Tike that changed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,989
    Smithers said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    Fishing said:

    Personally I think Starmer and Sunak are both heavily overrated, but in different ways. I don't think Sunak is very competent, but he has good electoral appeal at the moment. But I don't think that SKS has the electoral appeal that Labour's members thought he had. That was why many on the left held their noses and voted for him over more ideologically sympathetic opponents. So I'd personally bet against both favourites at these odds.

    It depends upon your view of the next election. If you think that there's a reasonable chance that Boris Johnson (a) fights it and (b) wins any kind of majority, then one can presumably rule out Starmer and any of the senior players on either side of the Brexit campaign, because under those circumstances it'll surely be time to move on to the next generation by the time Johnson retires.

    At a guess, and already leading Labour 2-0 on promoting female Prime Ministers, the Tories might be minded to go for a non-white leader next time, although if anyone from the 2019 intake defending a Red Wall seat really stands out then they could also be attractive. There are some candidates already in Government, of course, but the next Prime Minister could very well still be on the backbenches.
    It seems a long time ago now that that there were all those exclusives on Boris being glum because he couldn’t afford a nanny, his friends leaking he was going to call it a day in the spring, lots of sad violin music about him having the shortest premiership in X decades etc...

    Perhaps he still will step down but there’s not a whisper of it anymore is there? Hard to see beyond a second (reduced) majority for him right now. 12-18 months of wobbly markets and employment stats ahead, before a new boom starts to kick in maybe late 2022 and in full swing by May 2024. He might even choose another pre Christmas election in 2023.

    Next PM market looks a total punt in this context.
    Good post. And I'm on Boris to be out this year. I suppose it comes down to fatigue and legacy. And perhaps third party pressure (yo Symonds) one way or another.

    He has the Covid enquiry to weather and if that is positive (big if) he may feel he has done enough while also realising being PM is too much like hard work.
    This isn’t what the thread writer said however in any shape or form! He said that he didn’t think Boris would stand down, that he would fight another election.

    I agree with him. Not only because Boris is now doing a good job and seems to have his appetite back but because without the malevolent trio of Cummings, Cain and Lewis the Government now feels and acts like a Government, rather than a bunch of Alt-R anarchists intent on destruction from within.

    And then there’s Carrie. A lady who is young, ambitious, brilliant and full of zest with a proven track record of handling political power. No way will she want to give up the reins of power yet.

    Boris will definitely fight at least one more General Election.
    You misread my post. I said there are many good reasons why Boris would stay. I noted the factors which none of us can really know and which might swing it not knowing Carrie, for example, as I don't.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    edited February 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It’s hardly the fault of the Netherlands and Ireland, that so many EU countries have such globally uncompetitive corporation tax rates.

    A signal of intent from the Chancellor at the Budget, would be to drop this to 12% or even 10%.

    Contrary to popular opinion, EU corporation tax rates aren't particularly high. Most of the EU is in the mid to low 20s, with even the Nordics in that ballpark that days, and France at 29%. That's below most of the US, Australia, Canada, Japan, etc.
    What we are seeing is what May called "Citizens of Nowhere" only they are actually "Corporations of Nowhere" that reap the benefits of our economy and infrastructure but pay little or no tax. It's a disgrace.

    Company tax cuts, while councils and other services go bankrupt is what the Brexiteer elite wanted, but I cannot see that the Purple wall will be so keen.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    In Germany the policy is to have a dose already in storage for every dose administered, so there is a guarantee that when you have a first dose that there is a second dose with your name on it in a fridge or freezer in your Bundesland (or even more locally). It is, in my opinion, a stupid policy. But it means for the first 3 weeks of a vaccine (and AZ only started here less than 3 weeks ago) the absolute maximum % of doses administered can be 50%.

    Of course it's going to be a lot less than that because there's a lag between doses being delivered to a Bundesland and actually getting into someone's arm. Probably going to be significantly longer in Germany because a doctor has to be involved in every vaccination, and there are forms to fill in. And because the health system is so fragmented here.

    This is made worse by the decision not recommend one vaccine for over 65s, when this is the group that has first priority. There seems to be a lack of coordination to redirect the AZ doses to younger priority groups, also partly due to the fragmented systems here, but also the incredible lack of any national leadership (which has been a problem with this pandemic in Germany for over a year now).

    There's also an additional reporting lag between jabs happening and getting counted nationally. These lags obviously make a much bigger difference in percentage terms at the start.

    No doubt there is also greater hesitancy about the AZ (which already started in December with the reports that it had lower efficacy AND the confusion about the trials and accidentally giving people half a dose and so on, which made people already somewhat hesitant about any vaccine, much more hesitant about this one).

    But the reporting of this - "only 13% of doses in Germany administered because people don't trust the vaccine" - is in itself totally irresponsible, people are going to be reasonably thinking "if the vast majority of people are refusing it, then I should too" and the problem will get even worse.

    What is the German for 'clusterfuck'?
    I believe it is "Die AstraZeneca"
    How long will it take for the EU to be swimming in lakes of home brewed BioNtech-Pfizer, so that their citizens’ reticence to AZN will cease to matter?
    Probably a year or so, but it’s not as if they’re in much of a hurry to hand out the vaccines that have been delivered already.
  • It amuses me that the hard right Brexiteers are so affronted that the Brexit bully boys have been sold out by Boris. Surely when they saw what he did to the NI unionists they must have realised that Boris is a true politician?

    I’m not criticising Boris for this. He’s displaying what all great leaders need in order to gain and hold onto the reins of power: ruthless pragmatism.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    malcolmg said:

    BBC News - Mr Potato Head to lose "Mr" title in gender-neutral rebrand
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56200811

    I thought covid pandemic was supposed to put an end to this nonsense?

    Pathetic.
    I heard they're re-naming him Mr Turnip head! Apparently he's Swedish.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Here's what I don't get about Tories and public spending. We used to have this thing called "capitalism". This is a fairly simple thing - in order to sell your product or service you need to have willing punters who both desire your product or service and have the cash to pay for it.

    Its in everyone's interests for punters to have free cash to consume with, yet increasingly over the last 20 years Tories have seen the idea of poor people being in anything other than poverty as being akin to encouraging their degenerate behaviour.

    Sunak could start with two basic principles:
    1. Social Security (drop "benefits" FFS) is there as a safety net for our economy. In ensuring a minimum standard of living for everyone it ensures the continuation of our way of life as a nation driven by commerce.
    2. Investment - especially long term investment - is golden. By borrowing money to invest in key infrastructure the government enables the better functioning of the economy and delivers a return on that investment. Drop "subsidy" FFS - it should be investment.

    Do these two things and reframe the entire narrative. Its no longer about scroungers getting benefits, its consumers being enabled to keep you in your job buying things. Its not "how can we afford it", its "how can we afford not to". In cities like Manchester the corporation installed things like the pneumatic network enabling industry to move in and power machines. The market could never provide the infrastructure, so local government had to.

    It is the same with fibre broadband, with roads, with railway electrification, with major renewable energy projects etc etc. Flip the debate, make investment the goal. Too many Tories respond to almost every public investment project with "how will we pay for this". Tike that changed.

    Hang on, weren't you saying the other day that large parts of our economy were ecologically unsustainable? All those delivery drivers polluting the atmosphere etc.?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,203
    edited February 2021
    Looking at requirements for second doses, there is a simple target of 445,700 jabs per day to hit the end of July all adults target (1st doses & 2nd doses delayed)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It’s hardly the fault of the Netherlands and Ireland, that so many EU countries have such globally uncompetitive corporation tax rates.

    A signal of intent from the Chancellor at the Budget, would be to drop this to 12% or even 10%.

    Contrary to popular opinion, EU corporation tax rates aren't particularly high. Most of the EU is in the mid to low 20s, with even the Nordics in that ballpark that days, and France at 29%. That's below most of the US, Australia, Canada, Japan, etc.
    No-one pays the advertised rates in the US, especially not larger companies who either do deals with their state in competition with others, or keep their cash offshore until a nice President offers them a partial amnesty.

    There needs to be an international solution (possibly through tthe G20) to taxing multinationals, especially as so many of them now trade intangibles freely across borders. Until then, everyone needs to be as competitive as possible to attract investment and encourage location.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    edited February 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    Yep.

    Unless more supplies appear, the max aspiration for EU by the end of March (ignoring time for distribution) is somewhere between 12% and 24% depending on the one / two dose mix (whole population numbers).

    Listening to the session in the EuroParl yesterday with heads of Pharma companies, there is considerable delusion around still. Plenty of MEPs quoting conspiracy theories from the first attacks on AZ.

    And this. Cases have turned up on EU average rate. That says hospitalisations in 2-3 weeks, and deaths in 3-6. Strong lockdowns will have to be retained, and some are doing this already.





  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited February 2021
    Endillion said:

    Fishing said:

    Endillion said:

    Fishing said:

    Sunak's at 24%. Given that his giveaways have cost about £400 billion, I make that about £15 billion per point.

    But it'll evaporate just as quickly when he starts to claw some of it back.

    And A YEAR after the start of the pandemic, three million people still aren't covered by his hugely expensive schemes.

    Keir Starmer is 58 years old. I make that over two and three quarter years per point.

    Next year, all else being equal, he'll improve his years:points ratio very slightly. Remind me again why dividing random numbers by each other is meaningful?
    Nobody has said that being so many years old is rewarded by the voters.

    Plenty of people have said that bribing them with their own money is.
    Yeah, but are you really saying the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a zero per cent shot for next PM unless he finds at least £15bn of unplanned expenditure to give away?
    No, I'm saying that he might have been a 0% shot had he not given away £400 billion. Had he not done something to mitigate the effects of the pandemic, he would have lost his job as Chancellor as unemployment and bankruptcies soared. And deservedly so.

    I don't actually know if the relationship is linear, and nor does anyone else, though it may be. But there is almost certainly a relationship between a popular Chancellor and splashing cash around. We'll see if the relationship holds when he needs to tax rather than spend.

    Whereas there is no obvious relationship between SKS's age and his popularity.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,796

    BBC News - Mr Potato Head to lose "Mr" title in gender-neutral rebrand
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56200811

    I thought covid pandemic was supposed to put an end to this nonsense?

    Surely the manufacturer is driven by profit not political correctness. I don't give a toss whether they have the title Mr or not, but if in their judgement it makes the product more marketable then it is the correct decision. They might be wrong, but it is surely a good Conservative principle and not wokeness.
  • rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    In Germany the policy is to have a dose already in storage for every dose administered, so there is a guarantee that when you have a first dose that there is a second dose with your name on it in a fridge or freezer in your Bundesland (or even more locally). It is, in my opinion, a stupid policy. But it means for the first 3 weeks of a vaccine (and AZ only started here less than 3 weeks ago) the absolute maximum % of doses administered can be 50%.

    Of course it's going to be a lot less than that because there's a lag between doses being delivered to a Bundesland and actually getting into someone's arm. Probably going to be significantly longer in Germany because a doctor has to be involved in every vaccination, and there are forms to fill in. And because the health system is so fragmented here.

    This is made worse by the decision not recommend one vaccine for over 65s, when this is the group that has first priority. There seems to be a lack of coordination to redirect the AZ doses to younger priority groups, also partly due to the fragmented systems here, but also the incredible lack of any national leadership (which has been a problem with this pandemic in Germany for over a year now).

    There's also an additional reporting lag between jabs happening and getting counted nationally. These lags obviously make a much bigger difference in percentage terms at the start.

    No doubt there is also greater hesitancy about the AZ (which already started in December with the reports that it had lower efficacy AND the confusion about the trials and accidentally giving people half a dose and so on, which made people already somewhat hesitant about any vaccine, much more hesitant about this one).

    But the reporting of this - "only 13% of doses in Germany administered because people don't trust the vaccine" - is in itself totally irresponsible, people are going to be reasonably thinking "if the vast majority of people are refusing it, then I should too" and the problem will get even worse.

    What is the German for 'clusterfuck'?
    I believe it is "Die AstraZeneca"
    Vorsprung durch fucknik
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397
    tlg86 said:

    Here's what I don't get about Tories and public spending. We used to have this thing called "capitalism". This is a fairly simple thing - in order to sell your product or service you need to have willing punters who both desire your product or service and have the cash to pay for it.

    Its in everyone's interests for punters to have free cash to consume with, yet increasingly over the last 20 years Tories have seen the idea of poor people being in anything other than poverty as being akin to encouraging their degenerate behaviour.

    Sunak could start with two basic principles:
    1. Social Security (drop "benefits" FFS) is there as a safety net for our economy. In ensuring a minimum standard of living for everyone it ensures the continuation of our way of life as a nation driven by commerce.
    2. Investment - especially long term investment - is golden. By borrowing money to invest in key infrastructure the government enables the better functioning of the economy and delivers a return on that investment. Drop "subsidy" FFS - it should be investment.

    Do these two things and reframe the entire narrative. Its no longer about scroungers getting benefits, its consumers being enabled to keep you in your job buying things. Its not "how can we afford it", its "how can we afford not to". In cities like Manchester the corporation installed things like the pneumatic network enabling industry to move in and power machines. The market could never provide the infrastructure, so local government had to.

    It is the same with fibre broadband, with roads, with railway electrification, with major renewable energy projects etc etc. Flip the debate, make investment the goal. Too many Tories respond to almost every public investment project with "how will we pay for this". Tike that changed.

    Hang on, weren't you saying the other day that large parts of our economy were ecologically unsustainable? All those delivery drivers polluting the atmosphere etc.?
    Just look at all the necessary investment (electrical vehicles, batteries, sustainable renewable energy).

    And focus on how that investment can be made and where (what incentives do companies need, what can the Government do to help).
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    kjh said:

    BBC News - Mr Potato Head to lose "Mr" title in gender-neutral rebrand
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56200811

    I thought covid pandemic was supposed to put an end to this nonsense?

    Surely the manufacturer is driven by profit not political correctness. I don't give a toss whether they have the title Mr or not, but if in their judgement it makes the product more marketable then it is the correct decision. They might be wrong, but it is surely a good Conservative principle and not wokeness.
    Should all the Mr Men charcters now lose the Mr ?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Sandpit said:

    Smithers said:

    The vaccine clusterfuck is not the first example of the myth of German efficiency.

    If you want to know what a shambles the country has become in recent years then dig a little deeper into the sheer fiasco surrounding Berlin’s Brandenberg airport. This podcast “How to Fuck Up an Airport” will serve as a good guide:

    https://www.radiospaetkauf.com/ber/

    Brandenberg airport is going to be a case study in engineering and architectural screwups for decades to come, as well as being a poster child for the failure of public and private sectors to work efficiently together.

    It would have been cheaper and faster - if politically embarrassing - to have knocked the whole damn thing down in 2011, and started again from a hole in the ground.
    True, but at least they built something eventually, unlike us, who haven't built a new runway in or near London for decades (except the small City Airport).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    felix said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    In Germany the policy is to have a dose already in storage for every dose administered, so there is a guarantee that when you have a first dose that there is a second dose with your name on it in a fridge or freezer in your Bundesland (or even more locally). It is, in my opinion, a stupid policy. But it means for the first 3 weeks of a vaccine (and AZ only started here less than 3 weeks ago) the absolute maximum % of doses administered can be 50%.

    Of course it's going to be a lot less than that because there's a lag between doses being delivered to a Bundesland and actually getting into someone's arm. Probably going to be significantly longer in Germany because a doctor has to be involved in every vaccination, and there are forms to fill in. And because the health system is so fragmented here.

    This is made worse by the decision not recommend one vaccine for over 65s, when this is the group that has first priority. There seems to be a lack of coordination to redirect the AZ doses to younger priority groups, also partly due to the fragmented systems here, but also the incredible lack of any national leadership (which has been a problem with this pandemic in Germany for over a year now).

    There's also an additional reporting lag between jabs happening and getting counted nationally. These lags obviously make a much bigger difference in percentage terms at the start.

    No doubt there is also greater hesitancy about the AZ (which already started in December with the reports that it had lower efficacy AND the confusion about the trials and accidentally giving people half a dose and so on, which made people already somewhat hesitant about any vaccine, much more hesitant about this one).

    But the reporting of this - "only 13% of doses in Germany administered because people don't trust the vaccine" - is in itself totally irresponsible, people are going to be reasonably thinking "if the vast majority of people are refusing it, then I should too" and the problem will get even worse.

    What is the German for 'clusterfuck'?
    If you are unimaginative it is "Clusterfick"

    otherwise I am told "Riesenkatastrophe".

    Or possible "SeanT ist im Urlaub" if you are observing activities in a car park in Leipzig.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Smithers said:

    The vaccine clusterfuck is not the first example of the myth of German efficiency.

    If you want to know what a shambles the country has become in recent years then dig a little deeper into the sheer fiasco surrounding Berlin’s Brandenberg airport. This podcast “How to Fuck Up an Airport” will serve as a good guide:

    https://www.radiospaetkauf.com/ber/

    I shall miss the Red Baron at Tegel though
  • Following yesterday's discussion of a Trump run, Telegraph has some analysis:

    "Mr Romney said: "I look at the polls, and the polls show...if you put President Trump in there among Republicans, he wins [the nomination] in a landslide." "

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/25/analysis-window-already-narrowing-republican-challenge-donald/
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Because Taiwan is semiconductor island.


    Isn't the notion that the US are trying to rebuild domestic semiconductor capacity a tacit acknowledgement that they aren't going to fight China for Taiwan.

    The west did absolutely fuck all of any moment when China turned Fiery Cross Reef and Mischief Reef (in the Spratlys) into massive military bases. The west will almost certainly do fuck all when they take the next step of occupying Taiping then Dongsha.

    The west needs to think about the post Taiwan future because that battle is almost certainly already lost. The Philippines, Vietnam and PNG are where the effort and focus needs to be.
    Why PNG?
    Because it's a corrupt and impoverished shit hole that can be easily manipulated and it's a stepping stone toward Australia which is full of wheat, iron ore and coal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    In Germany the policy is to have a dose already in storage for every dose administered, so there is a guarantee that when you have a first dose that there is a second dose with your name on it in a fridge or freezer in your Bundesland (or even more locally). It is, in my opinion, a stupid policy. But it means for the first 3 weeks of a vaccine (and AZ only started here less than 3 weeks ago) the absolute maximum % of doses administered can be 50%.

    Of course it's going to be a lot less than that because there's a lag between doses being delivered to a Bundesland and actually getting into someone's arm. Probably going to be significantly longer in Germany because a doctor has to be involved in every vaccination, and there are forms to fill in. And because the health system is so fragmented here.

    This is made worse by the decision not recommend one vaccine for over 65s, when this is the group that has first priority. There seems to be a lack of coordination to redirect the AZ doses to younger priority groups, also partly due to the fragmented systems here, but also the incredible lack of any national leadership (which has been a problem with this pandemic in Germany for over a year now).

    There's also an additional reporting lag between jabs happening and getting counted nationally. These lags obviously make a much bigger difference in percentage terms at the start.

    No doubt there is also greater hesitancy about the AZ (which already started in December with the reports that it had lower efficacy AND the confusion about the trials and accidentally giving people half a dose and so on, which made people already somewhat hesitant about any vaccine, much more hesitant about this one).

    But the reporting of this - "only 13% of doses in Germany administered because people don't trust the vaccine" - is in itself totally irresponsible, people are going to be reasonably thinking "if the vast majority of people are refusing it, then I should too" and the problem will get even worse.

    What is the German for 'clusterfuck'?
    I believe it is "Die AstraZeneca"
    Vorsprung durch fucknik
    There are some brilliant new German compound words created by the pandemic.

    https://twitter.com/LizHcks/status/1364360868364910592?s=19
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Another piece about how even the US, without a national health service, is doing better than the EU in vaccine distribution, albeit it sees troubles ahead once the old and the better off have been vaccinated: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/02/america-vaccination-speed-europe-better/618094/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20210225&silverid-ref=Njk5MTc2ODk0NTgwS0

    Generally positive mentions of the UK too albeit clear that we had done everything badly up to that point.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    What actually happened to Apple's £13bn?

    I never heard the outcome.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    edited February 2021
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    But it's not just Ireland.

    Corporation tax rates In the EU:

    Hungary is 9%, Bulgaria 10%, Ireland 12.5%, Cyprus 12.5%, Lithuania 15%, and then you about seven or eight countries about where the UK is is (i.e. 18-22%) - Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal, Norway, and Denmark.

    In the old days it was Ireland on 12.5% and everyone else on 30+%. Competition between nations worked and drove down rates everywhere.
    But Ireland is the one that has got luxuriantly rich, by doing nothing but lower taxes (and by speaking English)

    The EU is intent on fiscal unity. Because the euro fails otherwise. I don’t see how that can be squared with wildly varying tax rates, esp Corp tax. That’s what Franco-Germany will go for first. Nations outside the euro might be fine, for now (Bulgaria, Hungary). Ireland is in the euro
    Whilst also getting net receipts of 3-4% of GDP for several decades. EU may want a return on that investment.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Because Taiwan is semiconductor island.


    Isn't the notion that the US are trying to rebuild domestic semiconductor capacity a tacit acknowledgement that they aren't going to fight China for Taiwan.

    The west did absolutely fuck all of any moment when China turned Fiery Cross Reef and Mischief Reef (in the Spratlys) into massive military bases. The west will almost certainly do fuck all when they take the next step of occupying Taiping then Dongsha.

    The west needs to think about the post Taiwan future because that battle is almost certainly already lost. The Philippines, Vietnam and PNG are where the effort and focus needs to be.
    Why PNG?
    Because it's a corrupt and impoverished shit hole that can be easily manipulated and it's a stepping stone toward Australia which is full of wheat, iron ore and coal.
    A friend of mine was sent to PNG by his company in the early nineties, and later moved to Joburg, where he felt safer.

    Australians over the last century were obsessed with the "Yellow Peril" threat to Australia. Seems somethings never change.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited February 2021
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I know there is an argument that 'now is not the time' but I really want Sunak to be radical here and show he is taking the finances seriously.

    Increase corporation tax to 23%. Still the lowest in Europe so the arguments about putting off overseas investment really shouldn't hold water.
    Increase Capital Gains tax on unearned income. 10% is way too low compared to earned income tax.
    Remove the age limit on NI contributions. If you are still working after retirement age then you should continue to pay NI just like everyone else.

    Look at converting all the current road/fuel taxes to a pay per mile which will be applicable to all cars whatever their motive system. It has to happen soon anyway otherwise the loss of tax income from electric cars will be crippling.

    Set up an independent commission to look at tax reform including merging NI and Income tax. And perhaps equalising capital gains tax and other taxes all at the same rate as the new combined tax. At the same time the commission should look at the overall tax burden and where reductions can and should be made.

    Personally I think now IS the time. He has an excuse for radical changes and should not let things slip back to 'business as usual'.

    The irish standard corporation tax rate is 12.5%, and Dublin is exactly where lots of business would head if we raised it much here.

    Removing the incentive on people to switch to electric cars wouldn't go down well with Carrie.

    Why do we need an independent commission to look at merging tax and NI? There are plenty of tax experts in government - they should be more than able to produce a list of pros and cons.
    Now the UK has gone you gotta wonder how long the EU will tolerate parasitical tax regimes like Ireland’s.

    Not long, I reckon. 5 years max
    What actually happened to Apple's £13bn?

    I never heard the outcome.
    The EU ordered Ireland to collect it from Apple.

    Ireland appealed, as they didn’t want the money and didn’t believe they’d done anything wrong, and won.

    Now the EU are appealing that, and trying to use technicalities to make Apple pay the money to someone who doesn’t want it.

    https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/01/european_commission_outlines_its_appeal/
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Because Taiwan is semiconductor island.


    Isn't the notion that the US are trying to rebuild domestic semiconductor capacity a tacit acknowledgement that they aren't going to fight China for Taiwan.

    The west did absolutely fuck all of any moment when China turned Fiery Cross Reef and Mischief Reef (in the Spratlys) into massive military bases. The west will almost certainly do fuck all when they take the next step of occupying Taiping then Dongsha.

    The west needs to think about the post Taiwan future because that battle is almost certainly already lost. The Philippines, Vietnam and PNG are where the effort and focus needs to be.
    Why PNG?
    Because it's a corrupt and impoverished shit hole that can be easily manipulated and it's a stepping stone toward Australia which is full of wheat, iron ore and coal.
    A friend of mine was sent to PNG by his company in the early nineties, and later moved to Joburg, where he felt safer.

    Australians over the last century were obsessed with the "Yellow Peril" threat to Australia. Seems somethings never change.
    Good job China is such a good neighbour and not expansionist at all................
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    edited February 2021
    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    Yep.

    Unless more supplies appear, the max aspiration for EU by the end of March (ignoring time for distribution) is somewhere between 12% and 24% depending on the one / two dose mix (whole population numbers).

    Listening to the session in the EuroParl yesterday with heads of Pharma companies, there is considerable delusion around still. Plenty of MEPs quoting conspiracy theories from the first attacks on AZ.

    And this. Cases have turned up on EU average rate. That says hospitalisations in 2-3 weeks, and deaths in 3-6. Strong lockdowns will have to be retained, and some are doing this already.





    That January peak for the UK is something else as is the horrendous death toll that came with it. I suspect we will find that January was the closest we came in the whole pandemic to just being overwhelmed. We have had the best part of 2 months of severe lockdown plus a rapid vaccination program and we are only just getting to the point that our deaths are once again somewhere in line with Spain, France, Italy and Germany.

    Most of this seems to have been caused by the Kent variant with its significantly enhanced infectivity but it is a bit strange that we have been hit so much harder by this variant than anyone else, particularly that it seems to have become much more dominant here than it did elsewhere.

    It is really this sting in the tail that means that we are going to be one of the hardest hit countries in terms of deaths. Hopefully the EU and other countries don't go through anything similar.
    Agree with all of that. Plenty of countries have had these, and it is whether another one can be avoided.


  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    DavidL said:

    Another piece about how even the US, without a national health service, is doing better than the EU in vaccine distribution, albeit it sees troubles ahead once the old and the better off have been vaccinated: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/02/america-vaccination-speed-europe-better/618094/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20210225&silverid-ref=Njk5MTc2ODk0NTgwS0

    Generally positive mentions of the UK too albeit clear that we had done everything badly up to that point.

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1363971637394161666
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206

    Here's what I don't get about Tories and public spending. We used to have this thing called "capitalism". This is a fairly simple thing - in order to sell your product or service you need to have willing punters who both desire your product or service and have the cash to pay for it.

    Its in everyone's interests for punters to have free cash to consume with, yet increasingly over the last 20 years Tories have seen the idea of poor people being in anything other than poverty as being akin to encouraging their degenerate behaviour.

    Sunak could start with two basic principles:
    1. Social Security (drop "benefits" FFS) is there as a safety net for our economy. In ensuring a minimum standard of living for everyone it ensures the continuation of our way of life as a nation driven by commerce.
    2. Investment - especially long term investment - is golden. By borrowing money to invest in key infrastructure the government enables the better functioning of the economy and delivers a return on that investment. Drop "subsidy" FFS - it should be investment.

    Do these two things and reframe the entire narrative. Its no longer about scroungers getting benefits, its consumers being enabled to keep you in your job buying things. Its not "how can we afford it", its "how can we afford not to". In cities like Manchester the corporation installed things like the pneumatic network enabling industry to move in and power machines. The market could never provide the infrastructure, so local government had to.

    It is the same with fibre broadband, with roads, with railway electrification, with major renewable energy projects etc etc. Flip the debate, make investment the goal. Too many Tories respond to almost every public investment project with "how will we pay for this". Tike that changed.

    The problem with paying the "poor" ever increasing amounts of benefits to be "poor" is that it makes it ever harder for employers to complete with benefits sufficiently to attract some of these people into work.

    And the problem with government "investment" is that very often it is nothing of the sort, at least in financial terms - a lot of the things governments are pressured to "invest" in either generate no return at-all (e. g. shiny new school buildings), or less return than other more normal things (e.g. railway electrification has a payback time of decades if ever).
  • Both lays.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, if all the EU doses received were actually in peoples' arms, then around 12% of EU adults would have received one dose, and the EU would only be a smidgen behind the US (14% of adults with at least one dose).

    France and Germany have taken an EU vaccine procurement disaster, and actually made it worse.

    Yep.

    Unless more supplies appear, the max aspiration for EU by the end of March (ignoring time for distribution) is somewhere between 12% and 24% depending on the one / two dose mix (whole population numbers).

    Listening to the session in the EuroParl yesterday with heads of Pharma companies, there is considerable delusion around still. Plenty of MEPs quoting conspiracy theories from the first attacks on AZ.

    And this. Cases have turned up on EU average rate. That says hospitalisations in 2-3 weeks, and deaths in 3-6. Strong lockdowns will have to be retained, and some are doing this already.





    That January peak for the UK is something else as is the horrendous death toll that came with it. I suspect we will find that January was the closest we came in the whole pandemic to just being overwhelmed. We have had the best part of 2 months of severe lockdown plus a rapid vaccination program and we are only just getting to the point that our deaths are once again somewhere in line with Spain, France, Italy and Germany.

    Most of this seems to have been caused by the Kent variant with its significantly enhanced infectivity but it is a bit strange that we have been hit so much harder by this variant than anyone else, particularly that it seems to have become much more dominant here than it did elsewhere.

    It is really this sting in the tail that means that we are going to be one of the hardest hit countries in terms of deaths. Hopefully the EU and other countries don't go through anything similar.
    Agree with all of that.
    I wonder if the reason we had problems in January is because the Kent variant had a 6-8 week head start here than elsewhere in europe (as it was here in numbers first) which explains why Finland and elsewhere are now seeing the problem after 6-8 weeks of compounded growth by a more infectious variant that started spreading in the UK in November but only appeared within Europe in December / January.
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