Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?
I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.
This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.
Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.
I might even have some myself.
That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU. I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.
We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
Any idea why that is? Covid keeping people away or are there a significant number of Catalonians who are pro independence and boycotting the elections after recent events?
Serious question, Interested to know why there is such a big drop (I would have thought it is covid).
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
No, the government makes it part of the next health bill making having he COVID vaccine mandatory for all UK healthcare workers public or private sector. That means there is no alternative. Once we do it other countries won't be far behind either so it's not like they can go overseas either. If they want to work they get the jab. That will get the numbers up to 99.9%.
Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?
I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.
This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.
Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.
I might even have some myself.
That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU. I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.
We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
Don’t forget Cameron would still be Pm. He would have gone along with the EU because he was too lazy to do anything else.
It would have been too much of a faff to do different.
Oh but surely, SURELY, the UK has SO much influence on the EU. EVERYTHING would have been WONDERFUL.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
I don't believe in rewarding bad behaviour. I would give the £500 to nurses for doing a good job not to Consultants for deciding not to do a bad one.
Any idea why that is? Covid keeping people away or are there a significant number of Catalonians who are pro independence and boycotting the elections after recent events?
Serious question, Interested to know why there is such a big drop (I would have thought it is covid).
It’s down most in non-nationalist areas. My guess is that on top of covid it’s because nothing was really on the line in this election. The nationalist camp is deeply split and secession is now off the table, so given the pandemic a lot of folk stayed at home.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
No, the government makes it part of the next health bill making having he COVID vaccine mandatory for all UK healthcare workers public or private sector. That means there is no alternative. Once we do it other countries won't be far behind either so it's not like they can go overseas either. If they want to work they get the jab. That will get the numbers up to 99.9%.
I think it would be better to offer a less-eligible alternative - you must have a negative Covid test and self-isolate completely for X time before you are allowed to enter your place of work. This would effectively be the same thing, but would look better.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
Moronic argument replace them with who?
Halve their salaries until they are jabbed. Whatever. They are endangering people. They need to be vaxxed
We cannot fuck around with the greatest public health emergency in a century. This is fuck all to do with race. If they are wanky white middle class greens with conspiracy theory leanings - and I know plenty of THEM - treat them exactly the same, of course
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
I agree wholeheartedly personally but the thing is that, whilst the government allows people to choose, some people are going to make choices that damage others.
Surely, this is much more about the public health issue than it is about individual people, and we still have vast numbers of people to vaccinate who are willing. At he moment it's all about numbers.
It's quite right that employers of anti-vaxxers should be tackling the problem in suitable ways, because it may be a top priority problem for a particular hospital or for a particular branch of Tesco's or Sainsbury's. At the moment, though, it isn't a top priority problem for the public health.
The best way to protect those who cannot have the vaccine is to get as many people as possible vaccinated as soon as possible.
Yes, the people who refuse to have the vaccine are effectively deciding which others will go on to catch Covid from them. But the vaccine that would have protected one circle of people will go to protect another circle of people instead.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
There’s a desperate attempt to blame this on Whitey in Woke circles, because of a BAME folk memory of white ‘experiments’ on black/Asian people in the 1930s or whatever, creating a historic unease of racist needles
If that were the case, you’d expect the oldest BAME folk to be the most resistant. They’re not. As that article implicitly accepts, it’s young BAMEs believing bullshit spread on social media. Hindus believing the vaccine contains beef, Muslims pork, black people thinking it changes your DNA.
At some point we will have to get a bit tougher. If you want to work in social care, you have the jab. End of.
It’s striking how different the situation is in Europe, where anti vaxxing (in France and Germany, say) is much more of a white problem. I have a friend with a French mother and German step father, in their 60s. Living in Bavaria. Wealthy, middle class, highly educated. Complete anti vaxxers
There’s also a satisfied curling of the lips amongst the anti-wokerati as they hint that it's all to do with "primitive" attitudes.
This sort of thing is why I no longer talk to right wing bloggers about race.
Except on here occasionally.
Fuck sake how can you trust a health care worker that doesn't believe in vaccines its not about primivitive attitudes its that they are a medical worker that doesnt believe in fucking medecine....sack the whole lot of them
On the EU, this is a perceptive analysis of its problems from a journalist who is generally seen as pro-EU and critical of Brexit. For his pains he has had loads of abuse from Remainers
As I have mooted before, the west is dividing post Brexit, into the Anglosphere and the EU
That photo would rate a special supplement if it was Boris instead of Angela. Even the one taken by his own photographer of him on the phone (apparently) to the great leader occupied the Telegraph for the better part of a week.
The body language is fascinating.
Angela likes herself. A lot. And doesn’t give a shit about Biden. Who is very good at the cheesy insincere politician grip and grin
On the EU, this is a perceptive analysis of its problems from a journalist who is generally seen as pro-EU and critical of Brexit. For his pains he has had loads of abuse from Remainers
As I have mooted before, the west is dividing post Brexit, into the Anglosphere and the EU
That photo would rate a special supplement if it was Boris instead of Angela. Even the one taken by his own photographer of him on the phone (apparently) to the great leader occupied the Telegraph for the better part of a week.
The body language is fascinating.
Angela likes herself. A lot. And doesn’t give a shit about Biden. Who is very good at the cheesy insincere politician grip and grin
Don't forget that Biden was only VP in that picture so she had no reason to give a shit.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
I don't believe in rewarding bad behaviour. I would give the £500 to nurses for doing a good job not to Consultants for deciding not to do a bad one.
Many moons ago, my father was involved in organising conferences which involved senior medical consultants.
Their hunger for cheap swag was incredible. A free biro would probably have them queuing round the block to try Putin's latest perfume range.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
I don't believe in rewarding bad behaviour. I would give the £500 to nurses for doing a good job not to Consultants for deciding not to do a bad one.
Many moons ago, my father was involved in organising conferences which involved senior medical consultants.
Their hunger for cheap swag was incredible. A free biro would probably have them queuing round the block to try Putin's latest perfume range.
Always been the way senior management go to conferences etc and come back crowing about their swag bags, junior staff get sent they normally come back complaining about the accomodation the flights and the fact people kept trying to give them cheap shit like biros
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
I think the problem with that is that it would collapse services. We are desperate for bums on seats. Ban the unvaccinated and patients would die
Exactly. Anti-vax sentiment is unhelpful anywhere but it's disastrous amongst medical professionals, especially given that a large proportion (something like 25%, IIRC) of Covid infections are thought to be hospital acquired. HOWEVER - you can't just get rid of valuable staff when they can't be readily replaced.
These medical professionals aren't flipping burgers or pulling pints. They're intelligent and educated people who've got where they are through many years of training and experience.
It's what makes these revelations doubly infuriating. It's not like these people have spent their entire lives as subsistence pastoralists in some remote valley in the Andes or some such place, getting all their knowledge of the world from the village elders. They've no excuse for ignorance. But there also exists no effective means to reprimand them. The only recourse available is explanation and persuasion, which absorbs precious time and effort on the part of others with no guarantee of success.
Meanwhile, older and vulnerable people who could be getting the vaccines instead are having to wait their turn (to say nothing of fitter, younger people at the back of the queue who face months of playing Russian roulette with Long Covid, whilst more privileged individuals get taken in by deeply stupid conspiracy theories on Facebook and sit around wringing their hands.)
I understand why people are pissed off. I'm pissed off. But in this instance we're also absolutely powerless, alas.
No we are not. Tell them they are on half wages until they jab. We cannot feck around, the future of the country - literally - depends on this
My thoughts on the Yorkshire figures coming down much more slowly than elsewhere (I think we're still under 50% down from the January peak in West Yorkshire). Factors:
1. Any place to place spread will have been more inbound than outbound since West Yorkshire started lockdown with some of the lowest rates in England. WY was probably importing cases.
2. The number of snow days pretty much since mid January has made us more indoorsy than the average once home.
3. Same as the Northern lag in the summer, more work being done in factory settings etc.
4. Figures have bounced around considerably due to the number of snow days (when no-one gets to b the test centres) then the catch-up days afterwards. Means the this week vs last week comparison is heavily dependent on when those days fell and how they split across weeks..
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
Moronic argument replace them with who?
Halve their salaries until they are jabbed. Whatever. They are endangering people. They need to be vaxxed
We cannot fuck around with the greatest public health emergency in a century. This is fuck all to do with race. If they are wanky white middle class greens with conspiracy theory leanings - and I know plenty of THEM - treat them exactly the same, of course
Absolutely not a medical worker that won't take a vaccine without a good medical reason why not is saying I do not believe in medecine. Sack them there and then
Cs a warning for parties everywhere to not pretend that they’re something that they’re not.
You mean like the labour party pretending they are a party for the working class, the lib dems pretending to be either liberal or democratic, the conservatives claiming to be conservative?
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
I agree wholeheartedly personally but the thing is that, whilst the government allows people to choose, some people are going to make choices that damage others.
Surely, this is much more about the public health issue than it is about individual people, and we still have vast numbers of people to vaccinate who are willing. At he moment it's all about numbers.
It's quite right that employers of anti-vaxxers should be tackling the problem in suitable ways, because it may be a top priority problem for a particular hospital or for a particular branch of Tesco's or Sainsbury's. At the moment, though, it isn't a top priority problem for the public health.
The best way to protect those who cannot have the vaccine is to get as many people as possible vaccinated as soon as possible.
Yes, the people who refuse to have the vaccine are effectively deciding which others will go on to catch Covid from them. But the vaccine that would have protected one circle of people will go to protect another circle of people instead.
But all circles are not equal. Once we are moving on to the non-critical groups, the argument that the vaccine is still doing as much good is no longer valid. At that point there is still a group of people, who may well be shielding in all other circumstances but who have to attend hospital or the GPs, who are being put at risk due to the idiotic - and I would say criminal - behaviour of the anti-vaxxer medical staff.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
I don't believe in rewarding bad behaviour. I would give the £500 to nurses for doing a good job not to Consultants for deciding not to do a bad one.
Many moons ago, my father was involved in organising conferences which involved senior medical consultants.
Their hunger for cheap swag was incredible. A free biro would probably have them queuing round the block to try Putin's latest perfume range.
Always been the way senior management go to conferences etc and come back crowing about their swag bags, junior staff get sent they normally come back complaining about the accomodation the flights and the fact people kept trying to give them cheap shit like biros
Apparently there was a thing in corporate espionage/black hatting a while back - get someone into the back stage stuff at a conference, and they would put Trojans etc on all the free USB keys.
Would get you straight into the boardrooms of a lot of companies, apparently.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
There’s a desperate attempt to blame this on Whitey in Woke circles, because of a BAME folk memory of white ‘experiments’ on black/Asian people in the 1930s or whatever, creating a historic unease of racist needles
If that were the case, you’d expect the oldest BAME folk to be the most resistant. They’re not. As that article implicitly accepts, it’s young BAMEs believing bullshit spread on social media. Hindus believing the vaccine contains beef, Muslims pork, black people thinking it changes your DNA.
At some point we will have to get a bit tougher. If you want to work in social care, you have the jab. End of.
It’s striking how different the situation is in Europe, where anti vaxxing (in France and Germany, say) is much more of a white problem. I have a friend with a French mother and German step father, in their 60s. Living in Bavaria. Wealthy, middle class, highly educated. Complete anti vaxxers
There’s also a satisfied curling of the lips amongst the anti-wokerati as they hint that it's all to do with "primitive" attitudes.
This sort of thing is why I no longer talk to right wing bloggers about race.
Except on here occasionally.
Fuck sake how can you trust a health care worker that doesn't believe in vaccines its not about primivitive attitudes its that they are a medical worker that doesnt believe in fucking medecine....sack the whole lot of them
A healthcare worker who doesn't believe in vaccines is like a chef that doesn't believe chicken needs to be cooked fully.
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
Politics is one of the few jobs you can get these days without qualifications, perhaps we should take that opportunity away from those that left school unable to read, write or add up
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
I don't believe in rewarding bad behaviour. I would give the £500 to nurses for doing a good job not to Consultants for deciding not to do a bad one.
I look at it from a slightly different perspective - incentivisation of a contractual change. I often tell employer clients that if they want to change an employment contract, make promotion or pay rise contingent on the signature of a new one. New contract requires vaccination. Totally accept your point about moral hazard but the incentive can be offered across the board - those who have been vaccinated no problem. Just gives an extra incentive to those that haven’t. And the professions in question are surely deserving,
Given that I think I may be responsible for initiating the whole anti-vaxxer medic brouhaha I probably ought not to be posting this peach as well, BUT...
The Prime Minister was keen to stress today that there is still 'a long way to go to'. That sentiment is reflected in the various reports in the Sunday papers on Downing Street's plan to ease the lockdown. The roadmap is a work in progress – it will be informed from data in the build-up – but the mood music coming from No. 10 is cautious. While ministers hope to open schools by March 8, non-essential retail and hospitality could reopen anytime between early May and August.
Should the Prime Minister attempt to push the reopening to late summer, he will face a sizeable backlash from Tory MPs. Already the Covid Recovery Group has published a letter – which they say is backed by 63 MPs – calling for all legislative restrictions to go by the end of April when all the government’s top nine priority groups should have been offered a vaccine. Were businesses not to be allowed to reopen until August, Johnson would face a large-scale Tory revolt.
This piece of journalistic speculation is courtesy of The Spectator, where they ought to have some vague idea of what's going on within a Tory Government. I did speculate some weeks ago that it might take until July to get all the first doses done, and we might then have to wait a bit longer than that before the scientists let hospitality reopen again. The mood music more recently has been a lot more positive, so I hope to God I was wrong. August is six months away. It'd feel like six years under those circumstances.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
I don't believe in rewarding bad behaviour. I would give the £500 to nurses for doing a good job not to Consultants for deciding not to do a bad one.
Many moons ago, my father was involved in organising conferences which involved senior medical consultants.
Their hunger for cheap swag was incredible. A free biro would probably have them queuing round the block to try Putin's latest perfume range.
Always been the way senior management go to conferences etc and come back crowing about their swag bags, junior staff get sent they normally come back complaining about the accomodation the flights and the fact people kept trying to give them cheap shit like biros
Apparently there was a thing in corporate espionage/black hatting a while back - get someone into the back stage stuff at a conference, and they would put Trojans etc on all the free USB keys.
Would get you straight into the boardrooms of a lot of companies, apparently.
Yes and generally you found the higher up the organisation the more likely they were to plug it in. Also someone low down in the organisation would get sacked for breaching security and some one high up would be sighed at and have it patiently explained its not a good idea
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Any idea why that is? Covid keeping people away or are there a significant number of Catalonians who are pro independence and boycotting the elections after recent events?
Serious question, Interested to know why there is such a big drop (I would have thought it is covid).
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
Moronic argument replace them with who?
Halve their salaries until they are jabbed. Whatever. They are endangering people. They need to be vaxxed
We cannot fuck around with the greatest public health emergency in a century. This is fuck all to do with race. If they are wanky white middle class greens with conspiracy theory leanings - and I know plenty of THEM - treat them exactly the same, of course
Absolutely not a medical worker that won't take a vaccine without a good medical reason why not is saying I do not believe in medecine. Sack them there and then
Could we try my theory - offer them a cheap biro with a built in LED flashlight - first?
Any idea why that is? Covid keeping people away or are there a significant number of Catalonians who are pro independence and boycotting the elections after recent events?
Serious question, Interested to know why there is such a big drop (I would have thought it is covid).
It is Covid mainly.
What is postal voting like in Catalonia? Standard, unusual, easy to setup or what?
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian born Hindus.
Strap them down and inject them. Do the same to White Hampstead upper middle class Wanker Anti-Vaxxers (I know several). Enuff
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
I don't believe in rewarding bad behaviour. I would give the £500 to nurses for doing a good job not to Consultants for deciding not to do a bad one.
Many moons ago, my father was involved in organising conferences which involved senior medical consultants.
Their hunger for cheap swag was incredible. A free biro would probably have them queuing round the block to try Putin's latest perfume range.
Always been the way senior management go to conferences etc and come back crowing about their swag bags, junior staff get sent they normally come back complaining about the accomodation the flights and the fact people kept trying to give them cheap shit like biros
Apparently there was a thing in corporate espionage/black hatting a while back - get someone into the back stage stuff at a conference, and they would put Trojans etc on all the free USB keys.
Would get you straight into the boardrooms of a lot of companies, apparently.
Yes and generally you found the higher up the organisation the more likely they were to plug it in. Also someone low down in the organisation would get sacked for breaching security and some one high up would be sighed at and have it patiently explained its not a good idea
Been there....
My favourite was after a pishing test email was sent round... the demands to remove people from the list of those who fell for it.
Given that I think I may be responsible for initiating the whole anti-vaxxer medic brouhaha I probably ought not to be posting this peach as well, BUT...
The Prime Minister was keen to stress today that there is still 'a long way to go to'. That sentiment is reflected in the various reports in the Sunday papers on Downing Street's plan to ease the lockdown. The roadmap is a work in progress – it will be informed from data in the build-up – but the mood music coming from No. 10 is cautious. While ministers hope to open schools by March 8, non-essential retail and hospitality could reopen anytime between early May and August.
Should the Prime Minister attempt to push the reopening to late summer, he will face a sizeable backlash from Tory MPs. Already the Covid Recovery Group has published a letter – which they say is backed by 63 MPs – calling for all legislative restrictions to go by the end of April when all the government’s top nine priority groups should have been offered a vaccine. Were businesses not to be allowed to reopen until August, Johnson would face a large-scale Tory revolt.
This piece of journalistic speculation is courtesy of The Spectator, where they ought to have some vague idea of what's going on within a Tory Government. I did speculate some weeks ago that it might take until July to get all the first doses done, and we might then have to wait a bit longer than that before the scientists let hospitality reopen again. The mood music more recently has been a lot more positive, so I hope to God I was wrong. August is six months away. It'd feel like six years under those circumstances.
Won't just be a large scale Tory revolt. There will be immense public pressure to open up, too.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
I don't believe in rewarding bad behaviour. I would give the £500 to nurses for doing a good job not to Consultants for deciding not to do a bad one.
I look at it from a slightly different perspective - incentivisation of a contractual change. I often tell employer clients that if they want to change an employment contract, make promotion or pay rise contingent on the signature of a new one. New contract requires vaccination. Totally accept your point about moral hazard but the incentive can be offered across the board - those who have been vaccinated no problem. Just gives an extra incentive to those that haven’t. And the professions in question are surely deserving,
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You mean he didn't graduate from the Nigel Foremain Global Leadership Academy? Poor show on his part.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
Moronic argument replace them with who?
Halve their salaries until they are jabbed. Whatever. They are endangering people. They need to be vaxxed
We cannot fuck around with the greatest public health emergency in a century. This is fuck all to do with race. If they are wanky white middle class greens with conspiracy theory leanings - and I know plenty of THEM - treat them exactly the same, of course
Absolutely not a medical worker that won't take a vaccine without a good medical reason why not is saying I do not believe in medecine. Sack them there and then
Could we try my theory - offer them a cheap biro with a built in LED flashlight - first?
Hell no, I don't want idiots like that don't believe in science anywhere near healthcare, next thing they will be making juju dolls and poking needles in them to make us better. Sack them good and hard and strike them off
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
There’s a desperate attempt to blame this on Whitey in Woke circles, because of a BAME folk memory of white ‘experiments’ on black/Asian people in the 1930s or whatever, creating a historic unease of racist needles
If that were the case, you’d expect the oldest BAME folk to be the most resistant. They’re not. As that article implicitly accepts, it’s young BAMEs believing bullshit spread on social media. Hindus believing the vaccine contains beef, Muslims pork, black people thinking it changes your DNA.
At some point we will have to get a bit tougher. If you want to work in social care, you have the jab. End of.
It’s striking how different the situation is in Europe, where anti vaxxing (in France and Germany, say) is much more of a white problem. I have a friend with a French mother and German step father, in their 60s. Living in Bavaria. Wealthy, middle class, highly educated. Complete anti vaxxers
There’s also a satisfied curling of the lips amongst the anti-wokerati as they hint that it's all to do with "primitive" attitudes.
This sort of thing is why I no longer talk to right wing bloggers about race.
Except on here occasionally.
Fuck sake how can you trust a health care worker that doesn't believe in vaccines its not about primivitive attitudes its that they are a medical worker that doesnt believe in fucking medecine....sack the whole lot of them
A healthcare worker who doesn't believe in vaccines is like a chef that doesn't believe chicken needs to be cooked fully.
Airmen drinking in the barracks with the lights on during a night raid. They put at risk themselves, their colleagues and the very people they are supposed to be serving and protecting.
Cs a warning for parties everywhere to not pretend that they’re something that they’re not.
They’ve lost a million votes and 30 of 36 seats. Their tack to the Spanish nationalist right has been an absolute and utterly predictable disaster - and especially in Catalonia.
But in all seriousness, I apologise for the inaccurate use of language in this case. I would expect, as you have suggested, that the unused doses wouldn't be sitting around for any length of time before being offered to someone else (i.e. reluctant persons who change their minds can be slotted in at a later date.) It's simply that being put near the front of the queue in the first place is a position of privilege that is denied to others. People lower down the queue who have to wait are entitled to feel a bit cheesed off that the privileged are turning down something that they are enthusiastic, even desperate, to have for no good reason. That's all.
Yes, I do understand that.
An acquaintance is in both categories - an anti-vaxxer herself, she's been absolutely desperate for her daughter to be bumped up the queue by any means possible.
Her daughter is in the extremely vulnerable category (has probably been done by now, or will be soon) so her concern is understandable.
She herself, however, is convinced that she leads a superbly healthy lifestyle with all the right foods & supplemental vitamins & so on, so it would be positively damaging for her to have the vaccine.
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian born Hindus.
Strap them down and inject them. Do the same to White Hampstead upper middle class Wanker Anti-Vaxxers (I know several). Enuff
No just strike them off, you don't believe in medecine you no longer get to be a doctor and go be a deliveroo driver
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
True but I am not sure a PPE from Oxford is either.
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
True but I am not sure a PPE from Oxford is either.
Well never claimed it was and the vast number of mp's that are shall we say not up to par seems to confirm that. Perhaps we would be best of saying PPE means you can't stand for public office
around 1.3 million people were employed by the NHS at the end of March 2020 77.9% of NHS staff were White (out of staff whose ethnicity was known), and 22.1% were from all other ethnic groups combined Source; NHS Workforce published 26/01/21
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
Moronic argument replace them with who?
Halve their salaries until they are jabbed. Whatever. They are endangering people. They need to be vaxxed
We cannot fuck around with the greatest public health emergency in a century. This is fuck all to do with race. If they are wanky white middle class greens with conspiracy theory leanings - and I know plenty of THEM - treat them exactly the same, of course
Absolutely not a medical worker that won't take a vaccine without a good medical reason why not is saying I do not believe in medecine. Sack them there and then
Could we try my theory - offer them a cheap biro with a built in LED flashlight - first?
Hell no, I don't want idiots like that don't believe in science anywhere near healthcare, next thing they will be making juju dolls and poking needles in them to make us better. Sack them good and hard and strike them off
The combination of the scientific and the errrrrr. non-scientific is practically standard.
It's the human condition.
You generally get better results with gentle persuasion than a chainsaw.
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
How about the Byzantine Empire?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
But seriously, are there any ideal qualifications that one can study for in order to be prepared to run a country? We don't have a college for training Government ministers.
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
I agree wholeheartedly personally but the thing is that, whilst the government allows people to choose, some people are going to make choices that damage others.
Surely, this is much more about the public health issue than it is about individual people, and we still have vast numbers of people to vaccinate who are willing. At he moment it's all about numbers.
It's quite right that employers of anti-vaxxers should be tackling the problem in suitable ways, because it may be a top priority problem for a particular hospital or for a particular branch of Tesco's or Sainsbury's. At the moment, though, it isn't a top priority problem for the public health.
The best way to protect those who cannot have the vaccine is to get as many people as possible vaccinated as soon as possible.
Yes, the people who refuse to have the vaccine are effectively deciding which others will go on to catch Covid from them. But the vaccine that would have protected one circle of people will go to protect another circle of people instead.
But all circles are not equal. Once we are moving on to the non-critical groups, the argument that the vaccine is still doing as much good is no longer valid. At that point there is still a group of people, who may well be shielding in all other circumstances but who have to attend hospital or the GPs, who are being put at risk due to the idiotic - and I would say criminal - behaviour of the anti-vaxxer medical staff.
Perfectly true. The medical professional is taking (should be taking) that possibility into consideration when making their decision. That may raise the further question about whether their judgement is good enough for them to continue to practice, but that is a matter for their professional bodies.
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
How about the Byzantine Empire?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
But seriously, are there any ideal qualifications that one can study for in order to be prepared to run a country? We don't have a college for training Government ministers.
We do. It's called Balliol. Or, more generally, Oxford.
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
True but I am not sure a PPE from Oxford is either.
Well never claimed it was and the vast number of mp's that are shall we say not up to par seems to confirm that. Perhaps we would be best of saying PPE means you can't stand for public office
I am somewhat over egging that, I think personally the issue with most mp's if that they are a) divorced from everyday reality b) while intelligent and able to get degrees they mistake education for intelligence and they also mistake education and intelligence for common sense.
In my time working I have had plenty of highly educated raw graduates and a lot were highly intelligent but seemed to lack any idea of follow on consequences. It was all this is the intelligent thing to do for this situation then side effects occured and it was oh well didnt consider that
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
I agree wholeheartedly personally but the thing is that, whilst the government allows people to choose, some people are going to make choices that damage others.
Surely, this is much more about the public health issue than it is about individual people, and we still have vast numbers of people to vaccinate who are willing. At he moment it's all about numbers.
It's quite right that employers of anti-vaxxers should be tackling the problem in suitable ways, because it may be a top priority problem for a particular hospital or for a particular branch of Tesco's or Sainsbury's. At the moment, though, it isn't a top priority problem for the public health.
The best way to protect those who cannot have the vaccine is to get as many people as possible vaccinated as soon as possible.
Yes, the people who refuse to have the vaccine are effectively deciding which others will go on to catch Covid from them. But the vaccine that would have protected one circle of people will go to protect another circle of people instead.
But all circles are not equal. Once we are moving on to the non-critical groups, the argument that the vaccine is still doing as much good is no longer valid. At that point there is still a group of people, who may well be shielding in all other circumstances but who have to attend hospital or the GPs, who are being put at risk due to the idiotic - and I would say criminal - behaviour of the anti-vaxxer medical staff.
My GP practice is mainly BAME staffed (and they are all lovely, kind and efficient). However, these stats make me think, OK, I'm invited for a jab (increasingly likely and soon in London) and.... my doctor, who gives the jab, might be unvaxxed and a carrier? So I could catch it even by trying to get vaxxed against it?
Why should I take that risk? So maybe I won't go. And so it spirals outwards.
This is the chain reaction of doubt which could do so much damage.
Make them take the jab: the docs and nurses. I don't mind what method: threaten the sack, reduce their salary, menace future employment, given them a huge cake, we, as a country, have had a brilliant vaccine roll out and it must not be upended by THIS
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
I am not advocating mandatory jabs, I am however asking how you can have faith in a medical practitioner that thinks medical science is wrong.
I don't advocate forcing them to be jabbed I advocate saying if you don't believe in medecine fuck off and we strike you off
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
Having just got back from a busy day on ICU at the Trust in question I do find it incredible, in the sense of unbelievable, but there it is.
There is a surprising suspicion of vaccination in some communities, particularly those at high risk.
The Trust has a plan to phone each individual to discuss, but ultimately cannot at present enforce vaccinations.
Do you think they should enforce vaccinations? I believe they should, if they are front line staff working with patients. No vax, no job. Sorry
This story is a total disgrace and makes me irate beyond words. Emergency legislation passed as quickly as the brexit bill was to sack the lot of them please.
"Sack Doctors" especially brown ones that should help in the busiest ever spell in the NHS.
Well done
What’s skin colour got to with anything? What an extraordinary position to take. I prefer to judge actions, not skin colour.
If some medical staff are so blasé with the lives of their patients that they refuse a vaccine in a pandemic, one wonders what else they’re unprepared to do. Report their own symptoms? Wash their hands between patients? The c. 25% of all cases and 40% of hospitalised cases acquired in nhs settings came from somewhere after all.
Threaten the sack and I doubt you’d end up losing more than a handful. And those that do? Oh well. Hospitalisations have peaked. And it may be that you still end up with a net positive impact on nhs capacity if they’re also spreading anti vax tendency among their patients.
If you cannot see the idiocy of your plan.
Even when a Consultant who has just done an extra shift in ICU confirms its not possible
I dont know how to help.
You are not helping. By defending these people you are part of the problem.
They should get a vaccine.
I am not defending them
Just pointing out that sacking them is
a) Not possible
b) Stupid due to unavailabity of replacements
I thought you would think about the feasibility of your proposal and its impact before doubling down on it.
I already said I accepted you can't immediately sack them. But you can put them on a disciplinary procedure which could ultimately lead to dismissal if they don't change their minds. It always takes ages for these things to work through (the improvement plan alone is normally either 3 or 6 months) but it is a black mark against their record and in the long run would prevent promotion etc. It should also leave them open to prosecution if they contract the disease and can then be shown to have passed it on to patients.
Right now being an anti-vaxxer in a position of contact with the vulnerable has no consequences at all. That has to change.
May have to get your carrots out as well as your stick Richard
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
I don't believe in rewarding bad behaviour. I would give the £500 to nurses for doing a good job not to Consultants for deciding not to do a bad one.
Absolutely I wouldn't offer a bribe to refusers. I'd give the bonus to all staff who had already been jabbed.
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
I am not advocating mandatory jabs, I am however asking how you can have faith in a medical practitioner that thinks medical science is wrong.
I don't advocate forcing them to be jabbed I advocate saying if you don't believe in medecine fuck off and we strike you off
I think that is, all things considered, a fair position.
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
I am not advocating mandatory jabs, I am however asking how you can have faith in a medical practitioner that thinks medical science is wrong.
I don't advocate forcing them to be jabbed I advocate saying if you don't believe in medecine fuck off and we strike you off
This is to me a huge problem, if they dont believe in vaccines how can It trust when I goto them with disease A which has a known treatment B which works they might not believe in treatment B and therefore not put me forward for it?
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
Seat belts are mandatory. Crash helmets are mandatory. Smoking is forbidden indoors. Water is fluoridated in several parts of the UK.
Sometimes the libertarian principle must take a back seat to the public good. I see more of a threat to free speech from PC (another argument for another day) than enforcing mandatory jabs during the greatest plague since 1918, a disease which has already destroyed 10% of UK GDP. The vaccines are our way out. We won't have a fucking economy and society if this thing spirals further out of control.
And, there WILL be vaccine passports for travel. I've been saying it for months. I am happy to bet on it. It is the only way to open up travel in 2021-22. It will happen because business demands it, and countries like Greece will default without international tourism, quite soon. So they will demand them, to reassure themselves, and airlines, and travellers.
I look at it from a slightly different perspective - incentivisation of a contractual change. I often tell employer clients that if they want to change an employment contract, make promotion or pay rise contingent on the signature of a new one. New contract requires vaccination. Totally accept your point about moral hazard but the incentive can be offered across the board - those who have been vaccinated no problem. Just gives an extra incentive to those that haven’t. And the professions in question are surely deserving,
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
We do in fact make certain vaccinations and tests mandatory for healthcare workers in the UK. COVID vaccines could simply be added to the existing laws, it's actually a fairly easy change to make.
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
We do in fact make certain vaccinations and tests mandatory for healthcare workers in the UK. COVID vaccines could simply be added to the existing laws, it's actually a fairly easy change to make.
And not mandatory in the sense they can refuse, it just means they cant be healthcare workers. Just like I could be a teacher then choose to stop being a porn star or continue as a teacher....(I hasten to add I am not a porn star merely quoting a case that came up)
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
There’s a desperate attempt to blame this on Whitey in Woke circles, because of a BAME folk memory of white ‘experiments’ on black/Asian people in the 1930s or whatever, creating a historic unease of racist needles
If that were the case, you’d expect the oldest BAME folk to be the most resistant. They’re not. As that article implicitly accepts, it’s young BAMEs believing bullshit spread on social media. Hindus believing the vaccine contains beef, Muslims pork, black people thinking it changes your DNA.
At some point we will have to get a bit tougher. If you want to work in social care, you have the jab. End of.
It’s striking how different the situation is in Europe, where anti vaxxing (in France and Germany, say) is much more of a white problem. I have a friend with a French mother and German step father, in their 60s. Living in Bavaria. Wealthy, middle class, highly educated. Complete anti vaxxers
There’s also a satisfied curling of the lips amongst the anti-wokerati as they hint that it's all to do with "primitive" attitudes.
This sort of thing is why I no longer talk to right wing bloggers about race.
Except on here occasionally.
Fuck sake how can you trust a health care worker that doesn't believe in vaccines its not about primivitive attitudes its that they are a medical worker that doesnt believe in fucking medecine....sack the whole lot of them
A healthcare worker who doesn't believe in vaccines is like a chef that doesn't believe chicken needs to be cooked fully.
I’m a lawyer who thinks that some laws are more like guidelines. Not criminal ones obviously.
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
We do in fact make certain vaccinations and tests mandatory for healthcare workers in the UK. COVID vaccines could simply be added to the existing laws, it's actually a fairly easy change to make.
And not mandatory in the sense they can refuse, it just means they cant be healthcare workers. Just like I could be a teacher then choose to stop being a porn star or continue as a teacher....(I hasten to add I am not a porn star merely quoting a case that came up)
Don't porn stars in some jurisdictions need to have HIV tests?
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
We do in fact make certain vaccinations and tests mandatory for healthcare workers in the UK. COVID vaccines could simply be added to the existing laws, it's actually a fairly easy change to make.
And that is fair enough - the circumstances make it so. Mandatory vaccination for all Brits, however, would not.
Oh dear. More anti-vax nonsense, this time in the NHS.
Significant disparities in vaccine uptake among healthcare workers in England may undermine the rollout and its ability to bring the coronavirus pandemic under control, with far lower rates among black and south Asian staff, workers under 30, and those living in the most deprived areas, a scientific adviser to the government has said.
Doctors at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS trust, which employs one of the largest and most diverse healthcare workforces in the country, raised the issue on Sunday after releasing the first public data on vaccination rates among UK healthcare workers.
Reading the piece, the disparities in terms of take-up are astonishing. Scandalous, in fact. As with the care homes, if the staff won't get vaccinated they jeopardise the welfare of the patients. And there's certainly no point in the Government putting out the kind of guilt tripping adverts, like the one that's just been playing on the TV as I've been typing, entreating the public to protect the NHS if large chunks of the NHS workforce won't bloody well protect themselves.
I mean, is medicine in this country to be governed by science, or by antique prejudices and bullshit shared on anti-social media? Not good enough.
There’s a desperate attempt to blame this on Whitey in Woke circles, because of a BAME folk memory of white ‘experiments’ on black/Asian people in the 1930s or whatever, creating a historic unease of racist needles
If that were the case, you’d expect the oldest BAME folk to be the most resistant. They’re not. As that article implicitly accepts, it’s young BAMEs believing bullshit spread on social media. Hindus believing the vaccine contains beef, Muslims pork, black people thinking it changes your DNA.
At some point we will have to get a bit tougher. If you want to work in social care, you have the jab. End of.
It’s striking how different the situation is in Europe, where anti vaxxing (in France and Germany, say) is much more of a white problem. I have a friend with a French mother and German step father, in their 60s. Living in Bavaria. Wealthy, middle class, highly educated. Complete anti vaxxers
There’s also a satisfied curling of the lips amongst the anti-wokerati as they hint that it's all to do with "primitive" attitudes.
This sort of thing is why I no longer talk to right wing bloggers about race.
Except on here occasionally.
Fuck sake how can you trust a health care worker that doesn't believe in vaccines its not about primivitive attitudes its that they are a medical worker that doesnt believe in fucking medecine....sack the whole lot of them
A healthcare worker who doesn't believe in vaccines is like a chef that doesn't believe chicken needs to be cooked fully.
I’m a lawyer who thinks that some laws are more like guidelines. Not criminal ones obviously.
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
Seat belts are mandatory. Crash helmets are mandatory. Smoking is forbidden indoors. Water is fluoridated in several parts of the UK.
Sometimes the libertarian principle must take a back seat to the public good. I see more of a threat to free speech from PC (another argument for another day) than enforcing mandatory jabs during the greatest plague since 1918, a disease which has already destroyed 10% of UK GDP. The vaccines are our way out. We won't have a fucking economy and society if this thing spirals further out of control.
And, there WILL be vaccine passports for travel. I've been saying it for months. I am happy to bet on it. It is the only way to open up travel in 2021-22. It will happen because business demands it, and countries like Greece will default without international tourism, quite soon. So they will demand them, to reassure themselves, and airlines, and travellers.
Alas I only bet on here with people who have been around for some time. There was a certain talented thriller writer who I would have happily had a bet with. But alas he seems to have departed from these parts.
My gut is there will be a limited amount of travel restricted by vaccination certs until next summer. Afterwards it won't be necessary. Because the vast majority of the world will have reached herd immunity by then.
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
We do in fact make certain vaccinations and tests mandatory for healthcare workers in the UK. COVID vaccines could simply be added to the existing laws, it's actually a fairly easy change to make.
And not mandatory in the sense they can refuse, it just means they cant be healthcare workers. Just like I could be a teacher then choose to stop being a porn star or continue as a teacher....(I hasten to add I am not a porn star merely quoting a case that came up)
Don't porn stars in some jurisdictions need to have HIV tests?
I think that only pertains to professionals whereas she was just an amateur that likes being filmed and wasnt paid for it. The school board decided she was possibly providing more sex education than was required as pupils were sharing the links round
What is the reason for ethnic minorities to resist the vaccine? Why is this a thing? What’s the trigger?
Fake news on social media, specifically WhatsApp. I was glad to see the study showed only a 6% rejection rate among British Indians, it definitely matches the anecdotes from family and friends.
Both of my Consultant colleagues not having the vaccine are Indian borne Hindus.
Doctors at CONSULTANT level not getting the vaccine is absolubtely un-fucking-believable. What a pair of arseholes.
Not least because they are at significant risk themselves.
Well, surely that's the absolute essence of the issue. If they prefer that risk to whatever their perception of the vaccine risk is, it really is up to them. It's the same issue for hospital Consultant as it is for Waste Disposal Technicians.
And if things don't moderate sufficiently, then gradually the general population getting Covid will be replaced with anti-vaxxers getting Covid. Shame about the people they infect, but still both WDT and Consultant take that into account & find their own balance.
Sadly that ignores the fact there are a small but significant group of people who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons or, for example, because they are pregnant women. If someone in a home or in hospital has, for example, a history of severe allergic reaction then they are not recommended to take the vaccine. In that case the only protection they have is the fact that the medical professionals dealing with them are vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated is not only a case of putting yourself at risk.
Well said. I know families that are splitting over this. Vaxxers over anti-vaxxers. The anti-vaxxers are insane, selfish twats who are endangering us all.
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
I'm not a fan of anti-vaxxers, but making anything medical mandatory just isn't the way we do things in this country. And it plays into anti-vax conspiracy theories, too.
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
We do in fact make certain vaccinations and tests mandatory for healthcare workers in the UK. COVID vaccines could simply be added to the existing laws, it's actually a fairly easy change to make.
And that is fair enough - the circumstances make it so. Mandatory vaccination for all Brits, however, would not.
I think the better approach is to make certain unsocially distanced activities unavailable without vaccine passports. It may offend hour sensibilities but it is a practical way to get everyone jabbed and end this misery properly and finally.
Doctors refusing vaccines is rather like lawyers picking and choosing which laws to obey. Also. If they have an objection to getting one, surely they should have an equally strong one to recommending, referring or administering one.
around 1.3 million people were employed by the NHS at the end of March 2020 77.9% of NHS staff were White (out of staff whose ethnicity was known), and 22.1% were from all other ethnic groups combined Source; NHS Workforce published 26/01/21
I'm surprised by that as it can't be that different to the workforce overall. What about amongst frontline staff?
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
Former Great Office of State
Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
Won a national referendum against all expectations
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
How about the Byzantine Empire?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
But seriously, are there any ideal qualifications that one can study for in order to be prepared to run a country? We don't have a college for training Government ministers.
I'm not sure such a thing exists. What substitute is there for the real thing? You need political skills, general administrative competence, decision making nous, judgement. You can teach some of these, others can be gained through experience of politics, but until you get a Ministry, what compares? Many people who were great in other fields would struggle, even assuming the Ministry is well run professionally, which is not a given.
I am not advocating mandatory jabs, I am however asking how you can have faith in a medical practitioner that thinks medical science is wrong.
I don't advocate forcing them to be jabbed I advocate saying if you don't believe in medecine fuck off and we strike you off
This is to me a huge problem, if they don't believe in vaccines how can It trust when I goto them with disease A which has a known treatment B which works they might not believe in treatment B and therefore not put me forward for it?
To be fair, these vaccines have only been given emergency approval. Normally nothing is made available for general use until it has gone through years of testing.
We've had discussion on here about whether the EU was right or wrong to insist that the manufacturers accepted the risk of future litigation. There is a risk involved; nobody knows what long-term effects any of these vaccines may have.
In decades to come, we might find that all our OAPs are living to 120 and the government's pensions problem balloons beyond all expectation. Or we might find that those who refused the jab are the only people left who can still do mental arithmetic.
The government has decided, understandably, that in our position it's a risk we must take. But so far it's up to individuals whether they're prepared to take that risk for themselves. If the pandemic just fades out so that it doesn't matter any longer, well & good. If it doesn't, we can find solutions to the anti-vaxxing problem then.
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
Former Great Office of State
Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
Won a national referendum against all expectations
Twice won the countries largest direct election
Media experience, edited a national magazine
Capable of winning a landslide majority
He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
Former Great Office of State
Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
Won a national referendum against all expectations
Twice won the countries largest direct election
Media experience, edited a national magazine
Capable of winning a landslide majority
7. Invented the bicycle. 8. Invented the bus. 9. Invented all Covid busting vaccines. 10. Single handedly saved the World from a pandemic. 11. Ended world poverty. 12. Gifted the world eternal peace.
The study found there was a 94 per cent decrease in the rate of symptomatic infection and a 92 per cent decrease in the rate of serious illness in those vaccinated, compared to 600,000 who were not vaccinated.
The study found there was a 94 per cent decrease in the rate of symptomatic infection and a 92 per cent decrease in the rate of serious illness in those vaccinated, compared to 600,000 who were not vaccinated.
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
Former Great Office of State
Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
Won a national referendum against all expectations
Twice won the countries largest direct election
Media experience, edited a national magazine
Capable of winning a landslide majority
He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.
Campaigning is a major part of the job.
Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.
That leaves the Lib Dems. I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.
The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
Former Great Office of State
Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
Won a national referendum against all expectations
Twice won the countries largest direct election
Media experience, edited a national magazine
Capable of winning a landslide majority
He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.
Campaigning is a major part of the job.
Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
Comments
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1361035038935183360?s=20
Pay a £500 bonus for having it and they will be straight in, if my experience of Hospital Consultants still holds true.
I appreciate you would prefer to shove the carrots up their arses and i might even agree but its just not the way it works i am afraid.
Serious question, Interested to know why there is such a big drop (I would have thought it is covid).
We cannot fuck around with the greatest public health emergency in a century. This is fuck all to do with race. If they are wanky white middle class greens with conspiracy theory leanings - and I know plenty of THEM - treat them exactly the same, of course
Surely, this is much more about the public health issue than it is about individual people, and we still have vast numbers of people to vaccinate who are willing. At he moment it's all about numbers.
It's quite right that employers of anti-vaxxers should be tackling the problem in suitable ways, because it may be a top priority problem for a particular hospital or for a particular branch of Tesco's or Sainsbury's. At the moment, though, it isn't a top priority problem for the public health.
The best way to protect those who cannot have the vaccine is to get as many people as possible vaccinated as soon as possible.
Yes, the people who refuse to have the vaccine are effectively deciding which others will go on to catch Covid from them. But the vaccine that would have protected one circle of people will go to protect another circle of people instead.
Angela likes herself. A lot. And doesn’t give a shit about Biden. Who is very good at the cheesy insincere politician grip and grin
Their hunger for cheap swag was incredible. A free biro would probably have them queuing round the block to try Putin's latest perfume range.
1. Any place to place spread will have been more inbound than outbound since West Yorkshire started lockdown with some of the lowest rates in England. WY was probably importing cases.
2. The number of snow days pretty much since mid January has made us more indoorsy than the average once home.
3. Same as the Northern lag in the summer, more work being done in factory settings etc.
4. Figures have bounced around considerably due to the number of snow days (when no-one gets to b the test centres) then the catch-up days afterwards. Means the this week vs last week comparison is heavily dependent on when those days fell and how they split across weeks..
Cs a warning for parties everywhere to not pretend that they’re something that they’re not.
You mean like the labour party pretending they are a party for the working class, the lib dems pretending to be either liberal or democratic, the conservatives claiming to be conservative?
Would get you straight into the boardrooms of a lot of companies, apparently.
The Prime Minister was keen to stress today that there is still 'a long way to go to'. That sentiment is reflected in the various reports in the Sunday papers on Downing Street's plan to ease the lockdown. The roadmap is a work in progress – it will be informed from data in the build-up – but the mood music coming from No. 10 is cautious. While ministers hope to open schools by March 8, non-essential retail and hospitality could reopen anytime between early May and August.
Should the Prime Minister attempt to push the reopening to late summer, he will face a sizeable backlash from Tory MPs. Already the Covid Recovery Group has published a letter – which they say is backed by 63 MPs – calling for all legislative restrictions to go by the end of April when all the government’s top nine priority groups should have been offered a vaccine. Were businesses not to be allowed to reopen until August, Johnson would face a large-scale Tory revolt.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-hits-vaccine-target-what-happens-next-
This piece of journalistic speculation is courtesy of The Spectator, where they ought to have some vague idea of what's going on within a Tory Government. I did speculate some weeks ago that it might take until July to get all the first doses done, and we might then have to wait a bit longer than that before the scientists let hospitality reopen again. The mood music more recently has been a lot more positive, so I hope to God I was wrong. August is six months away. It'd feel like six years under those circumstances.
My favourite was after a pishing test email was sent round... the demands to remove people from the list of those who fell for it.
.... that is meant in a positive way by the way.
They’ve lost a million votes and 30 of 36 seats. Their tack to the Spanish nationalist right has been an absolute and utterly predictable disaster - and especially in Catalonia.
An acquaintance is in both categories - an anti-vaxxer herself, she's been absolutely desperate for her daughter to be bumped up the queue by any means possible.
Her daughter is in the extremely vulnerable category (has probably been done by now, or will be soon) so her concern is understandable.
She herself, however, is convinced that she leads a superbly healthy lifestyle with all the right foods & supplemental vitamins & so on, so it would be positively damaging for her to have the vaccine.
https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1361032472667041798
Make it mandatory. Certainly start with vaccine passports, that will concentrate minds. No more holidays for YOU, mate
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1361046840829968393
77.9% of NHS staff were White (out of staff whose ethnicity was known), and 22.1% were from all other ethnic groups combined
Source; NHS Workforce published 26/01/21
It's the human condition.
You generally get better results with gentle persuasion than a chainsaw.
But then I am an Attila The Hun style liberal.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
But seriously, are there any ideal qualifications that one can study for in order to be prepared to run a country? We don't have a college for training Government ministers.
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1361055362535727105
Yes please USA / UK
And once this wave is over, it won't be a big deal. The value of herd immunity is that the large percentage of those who are vaccinated protect those who aren't.
Just as no-one will give two hoots about covid passports in 2022/3. Just as no-one really cares who has the flu jab or not.
You know, all that post-Brexit bollocks about the highest* environmental and workers' standards in the world.
*Apart from everybody else. (c) Hannan 2016
In my time working I have had plenty of highly educated raw graduates and a lot were highly intelligent but seemed to lack any idea of follow on consequences. It was all this is the intelligent thing to do for this situation then side effects occured and it was oh well didnt consider that
Why should I take that risk? So maybe I won't go. And so it spirals outwards.
This is the chain reaction of doubt which could do so much damage.
Make them take the jab: the docs and nurses. I don't mind what method: threaten the sack, reduce their salary, menace future employment, given them a huge cake, we, as a country, have had a brilliant vaccine roll out and it must not be upended by THIS
I don't advocate forcing them to be jabbed I advocate saying if you don't believe in medecine fuck off and we strike you off
Sometimes the libertarian principle must take a back seat to the public good. I see more of a threat to free speech from PC (another argument for another day) than enforcing mandatory jabs during the greatest plague since 1918, a disease which has already destroyed 10% of UK GDP. The vaccines are our way out. We won't have a fucking economy and society if this thing spirals further out of control.
And, there WILL be vaccine passports for travel. I've been saying it for months. I am happy to bet on it. It is the only way to open up travel in 2021-22. It will happen because business demands it, and countries like Greece will default without international tourism, quite soon. So they will demand them, to reassure themselves, and airlines, and travellers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9ojK9Q_ARE
My gut is there will be a limited amount of travel restricted by vaccination certs until next summer. Afterwards it won't be necessary. Because the vast majority of the world will have reached herd immunity by then.
Also. If they have an objection to getting one, surely they should have an equally strong one to recommending, referring or administering one.
https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2021/02/14/the-fallout-from-donald-trumps-acquittal-491749
We've had discussion on here about whether the EU was right or wrong to insist that the manufacturers accepted the risk of future litigation. There is a risk involved; nobody knows what long-term effects any of these vaccines may have.
In decades to come, we might find that all our OAPs are living to 120 and the government's pensions problem balloons beyond all expectation. Or we might find that those who refused the jab are the only people left who can still do mental arithmetic.
The government has decided, understandably, that in our position it's a risk we must take. But so far it's up to individuals whether they're prepared to take that risk for themselves. If the pandemic just fades out so that it doesn't matter any longer, well & good. If it doesn't, we can find solutions to the anti-vaxxing problem then.
8. Invented the bus.
9. Invented all Covid busting vaccines.
10. Single handedly saved the World from a pandemic.
11. Ended world poverty.
12. Gifted the world eternal peace.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14048647/shops-reopen-rule-of-six-lockdown-spring/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/major-israeli-study-finds-pfizer-jab-94-per-cent-effective-real/amp/
Campaigning is a major part of the job.
Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.