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A Butcher’s Bill for EU – politicalbetting.com

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  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Just out of interest, here's how all the (permanently populated) UK crown dependencies and overseas territories are getting on with their vaccine projects, according to most recent available data. Values are in total doses per 100 head of population.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

    Gibraltar 71.8
    Cayman Islands 23.6
    Jersey 20.8
    Turks & Caicos 16.6
    Bermuda 16.1
    Isle of Man 15.9
    Guernsey 14.8
    Anguilla 8.9
    Saint Helena 1.8

    The Falklands, Pitcairn, Montserrat and BVI are either yet to report or are still in the starting blocks. The UK itself is currently on 22.2
  • Hate to seem callous, but isn't the anti-vaxxer problem self-limiting as a result of increased mortality?

    No, since 99% of the morons will survive.

    Though their vulnerable patients they might pass the bastard bug onto might not be so lucky.
  • vinovino Posts: 151
    From previous posting

    bigjohnowls said:
    https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/nhs-workforce/latest
    35.4% of "medical" staff in NHS are Asian or Black up from 15% 10 yrs earlier

    Lots of interesting facts - I became interested as some commentators said the NHS would collapse when we left the EU
  • IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    7. Invented the bicycle.
    8. Invented the bus.
    9. Invented all Covid busting vaccines.
    10. Single handedly saved the World from a pandemic.
    11. Ended world poverty.
    12. Gifted the world eternal peace.
    13. Established an polygamous eco-colony on Mars.
    14. Travelled in time.
    15. Folded an origami swan with his elbows.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited February 2021

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    7. Invented the bicycle.
    8. Invented the bus.
    9. Invented all Covid busting vaccines.
    10. Single handedly saved the World from a pandemic.
    11. Ended world poverty.
    12. Gifted the world eternal peace.
    13. Established an polygamous eco-colony on Mars.
    14. Travelled in time.
    15. Folded an origami swan with his elbows.
    No.14 has now been demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt:

    https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/804420707602014208

    No.13 was going to be proved, but the investigating space shuttle decided to stay.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,579

    Leon said:

    On the decline of the West, part 683:

    Recently, Chinese cinemas grossed nearly $300m in total takings in one weekend, while US cinemas took peanuts. It is thought American box office receipts will never again match China’s. China is the dominant market now.

    More importantly, Chinese movies, having hugely improved (by copying the West) now crowd out American movies. The top ten movies in China today are all Chinese-made.

    The implications of this are enormous. Hollywood was a huge factor in projecting US soft power. It is diminishing fast.

    https://www.ft.com/content/573340cb-30b9-421e-8fec-51c8348a6bbb

    But the rest of the world speaks English better than Mandarin.

    How much are Chinese films being exported to the rest of the world like Hollywood films are?
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    Don’t forget Cameron would still be Pm. He would have gone along with the EU because he was too lazy to do anything else.
    Sure.
    So much lazier than Boris, too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    7. Invented the bicycle.
    8. Invented the bus.
    9. Invented all Covid busting vaccines.
    10. Single handedly saved the World from a pandemic.
    11. Ended world poverty.
    12. Gifted the world eternal peace.
    13. Established an polygamous eco-colony on Mars.
    14. Travelled in time.
    15. Folded an origami swan with his elbows.
    It is a hell of a CV.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
    I accept that you believe that but she is surely just a pawn in a game for a ghastly regime? Although weirdly don’t we owe them money or something from way back? Reneged on a deal around the time of the revolution?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    AnneJGP said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:



    I am not advocating mandatory jabs, I am however asking how you can have faith in a medical practitioner that thinks medical science is wrong.

    I don't advocate forcing them to be jabbed I advocate saying if you don't believe in medecine fuck off and we strike you off

    This is to me a huge problem, if they don't believe in vaccines how can It trust when I goto them with disease A which has a known treatment B which works they might not believe in treatment B and therefore not put me forward for it?
    To be fair, these vaccines have only been given emergency approval. Normally nothing is made available for general use until it has gone through years of testing.

    We've had discussion on here about whether the EU was right or wrong to insist that the manufacturers accepted the risk of future litigation. There is a risk involved; nobody knows what long-term effects any of these vaccines may have.

    In decades to come, we might find that all our OAPs are living to 120 and the government's pensions problem balloons beyond all expectation. Or we might find that those who refused the jab are the only people left who can still do mental arithmetic.

    The government has decided, understandably, that in our position it's a risk we must take. But so far it's up to individuals whether they're prepared to take that risk for themselves. If the pandemic just fades out so that it doesn't matter any longer, well & good. If it doesn't, we can find solutions to the anti-vaxxing problem then.
    A very sensible post.

    I am going to get the vaccine - can't wait. And I'm 100% sure that anything negative that can happen to me by having a bit of monkey virus in me, I can offset by looking after my health in other ways. But the 'anti-anti-vaxxer' brigade here are ridiculous. Saying you should just put anything in your body that you're told to is the least scientific viewpoint you could possibly adopt.
  • Quell the quail, quiz the quetzal & quarantine the quokka
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
    Who could release her tomorrow if they chose to? Is it:

    (a) The Iranians?
    (b) The Iranians?

    OR

    (c) The Iranians?

    You know people outside Britain have moral agency too, right?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    edited February 2021

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
    I accept that you believe that but she is surely just a pawn in a game for a ghastly regime? Although weirdly don’t we owe them money or something from way back? Reneged on a deal around the time of the revolution?
    She is the victim of the vile Iranian regime, however UK Foreign Secretaries do not normally add fuel to the fire by falsely suggesting she was in Iran working for Reuters.

    We do indeed hold money paid to us by the Shah's regime. Whether we have an obligation to pay it back is one for the International Courts.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
    Who could release her tomorrow if they chose to? Is it:

    (a) The Iranians?
    (b) The Iranians?

    OR

    (c) The Iranians?

    You know people outside Britain have moral agency too, right?
    Indeed, but it still doesn't let Johnson off the hook for his withering stupidity.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
    Who could release her tomorrow if they chose to? Is it:

    (a) The Iranians?
    (b) The Iranians?

    OR

    (c) The Iranians?

    You know people outside Britain have moral agency too, right?
    Well of course it is the Iranian's responsibility, but when dealing with an awkward situation with a country you are at loggerheads with there is such a thing as diplomacy and he screwed up spectacularly. She may or may not have got released but he wrecked that prospect.
  • In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
    I accept that you believe that but she is surely just a pawn in a game for a ghastly regime? Although weirdly don’t we owe them money or something from way back? Reneged on a deal around the time of the revolution?
    She is the victim of the vile Iranian regime, however UK Foreign Secretaries do not normally add fuel to the fire by falsely suggesting she was in Iran working for Reuters.

    We do indeed hold money paid to us by the Shah's regime. Whether we have an obligation to pay it back is one for the International Courts.
    One wonders where Johnson got the idea that that was what she was doing. My guess is that that's what the FCO think was going on and the idiot repeated what he had heard.

    Clearly not a good look for a Foreign Secretary, but I certainly find it hard to have all that much sympathy for her.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    edited February 2021
    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
    I accept that you believe that but she is surely just a pawn in a game for a ghastly regime? Although weirdly don’t we owe them money or something from way back? Reneged on a deal around the time of the revolution?
    She is the victim of the vile Iranian regime, however UK Foreign Secretaries do not normally add fuel to the fire by falsely suggesting she was in Iran working for Reuters.

    We do indeed hold money paid to us by the Shah's regime. Whether we have an obligation to pay it back is one for the International Courts.
    One wonders where Johnson got the idea that that was what she was doing. My guess is that that's what the FCO think was going on and the idiot repeated what he had heard.

    Clearly not a good look for a Foreign Secretary, but I certainly find it hard to have all that much sympathy for her.
    The official FO line was that she was visiting her family. That may well be absolutely true, so why do you have little sympathy for her?
  • kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Because Starmer would have sat on it, filled it with bureaucracy and will not have shown great world leading leadership like Boris/Hancock in ordering vaccines and then implementing it, subject of course to MHRA.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Have you not seen Boris working hard in the vaccination centres on TV news?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    We'd almost definitely be in the EU scheme on ideological grounds.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
    I accept that you believe that but she is surely just a pawn in a game for a ghastly regime? Although weirdly don’t we owe them money or something from way back? Reneged on a deal around the time of the revolution?
    She is the victim of the vile Iranian regime, however UK Foreign Secretaries do not normally add fuel to the fire by falsely suggesting she was in Iran working for Reuters.

    We do indeed hold money paid to us by the Shah's regime. Whether we have an obligation to pay it back is one for the International Courts.
    One wonders where Johnson got the idea that that was what she was doing. My guess is that that's what the FCO think was going on and the idiot repeated what he had heard.

    Clearly not a good look for a Foreign Secretary, but I certainly find it hard to have all that much sympathy for her.
    The party line was that she was visiting her family. That may well be absolutely true, so why do you have little sympathy for her?
    Because it's a brutal country that comes down hard on anyone that they see as a threat to the regime. Given her employment history, I'd suggest she shouldn't have gone anywhere near the place.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
  • Hate to seem callous, but isn't the anti-vaxxer problem self-limiting as a result of increased mortality?

    Nope because they can infect those who are unable to have the vaccine
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    AnneJGP said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:



    I am not advocating mandatory jabs, I am however asking how you can have faith in a medical practitioner that thinks medical science is wrong.

    I don't advocate forcing them to be jabbed I advocate saying if you don't believe in medecine fuck off and we strike you off

    This is to me a huge problem, if they don't believe in vaccines how can It trust when I goto them with disease A which has a known treatment B which works they might not believe in treatment B and therefore not put me forward for it?
    To be fair, these vaccines have only been given emergency approval. Normally nothing is made available for general use until it has gone through years of testing.

    We've had discussion on here about whether the EU was right or wrong to insist that the manufacturers accepted the risk of future litigation. There is a risk involved; nobody knows what long-term effects any of these vaccines may have.

    In decades to come, we might find that all our OAPs are living to 120 and the government's pensions problem balloons beyond all expectation. Or we might find that those who refused the jab are the only people left who can still do mental arithmetic.

    The government has decided, understandably, that in our position it's a risk we must take. But so far it's up to individuals whether they're prepared to take that risk for themselves. If the pandemic just fades out so that it doesn't matter any longer, well & good. If it doesn't, we can find solutions to the anti-vaxxing problem then.
    A very sensible post.

    I am going to get the vaccine - can't wait. And I'm 100% sure that anything negative that can happen to me by having a bit of monkey virus in me, I can offset by looking after my health in other ways. But the 'anti-anti-vaxxer' brigade here are ridiculous. Saying you should just put anything in your body that you're told to is the least scientific viewpoint you could possibly adopt.
    The problem with what Annejgp says here is time scales, yes 30 years down the line vaccines may make people live to 120 years however covid is here now, its killing people now, these vaccines have been shown to stop it.

    I dont mind people refusing I merely say those who refuse should be kicked out of the medical front lines
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Because Starmer would have sat on it, filled it with bureaucracy and will not have shown great world leading leadership like Boris/Hancock in ordering vaccines and then implementing it, subject of course to MHRA.
    Starmer would have stopped us and taken britain into the european vaccine program
  • Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    edited February 2021

    kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Because Starmer would have sat on it, filled it with bureaucracy and will not have shown great world leading leadership like Boris/Hancock in ordering vaccines and then implementing it, subject of course to MHRA.
    By default, and by what the late artist Bob Ross would call a "happy accident" you are probably correct.

    Johnson was so devoid of any ideas for the management of Covid early in the pandemic, that without the benefit of a form book, he blindly bet the house on a vaccine. He won! The winner takes it all.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
  • Has natev67 posted on PB yet this evening?

    https://twitter.com/natev67/status/1354761258650771461?s=21
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited February 2021

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    7. Invented the bicycle.
    8. Invented the bus.
    9. Invented all Covid busting vaccines.
    10. Single handedly saved the World from a pandemic.
    11. Ended world poverty.
    12. Gifted the world eternal peace.
    13. Established an polygamous eco-colony on Mars.
    14. Travelled in time.
    15. Folded an origami swan with his elbows.
    I'm afraid there is a degree of hero worship creeping in that is unseemly in grown men.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Has natev67 posted on PB yet this evening?

    https://twitter.com/natev67/status/1354761258650771461?s=21

    Yes his pb name is hyufd probably
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
  • kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Because Starmer would have sat on it, filled it with bureaucracy and will not have shown great world leading leadership like Boris/Hancock in ordering vaccines and then implementing it, subject of course to MHRA.
    By default, and by what the late artist Bob Ross would call a "happy accident" you are probably correct.

    Johnson was so devoid of any ideas for the management of Covid early in the pandemic, that without the benefit of a form book, he blindly bet the house on a vaccine. He won! The winner takes it all.
    Hope you are enjoying being a Conservative now :lol: l
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Tories are hard left nutters these days so its not a get out
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Here we go again, hard left nutters. When challenged on this last time you failed to come up with one.
  • Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    I was once accused of being a right-wing Cockney. Made my day.
  • Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Because Starmer would have sat on it, filled it with bureaucracy and will not have shown great world leading leadership like Boris/Hancock in ordering vaccines and then implementing it, subject of course to MHRA.
    Starmer would have stopped us and taken britain into the european vaccine program
    Which would have meant 2 vaccines so far not 15,000,000
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    Slightly late on the anti-vaxxer doctor debate: anecdotal, but my impression is that it may driven more by selfishness than ignorance, at least in some cases. There remains an outside chance that the vaccine will cause some sort of nasty side effect years down the line (or at least, it's impossible to prove definitively that it won't) and for younger doctors who have either already had COVID, or fancy their chances of surviving with minimal symptoms if they do get it, it sort of makes sense to not have it and piggyback off everyone else's herd immunity.

    Disclaimer that my contemporaries skew young and non-BAME, and obviously there may be different effects in other cohorts. Also a lot of these conversations were many months ago, and I would hope that by now they have all made their peace with having the jab as a matter of civic duty, if nothing else.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
    I love the EU and socialism. Which one the most I can't decide. Right now it's probably socialism.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Because Starmer would have sat on it, filled it with bureaucracy and will not have shown great world leading leadership like Boris/Hancock in ordering vaccines and then implementing it, subject of course to MHRA.
    Starmer would have stopped us and taken britain into the european vaccine program
    Which would have meant 2 vaccines so far not 15,000,000
    Probably less as leaving the eu I have no doubt we would have been the back of the queue when distribution occurred
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
    I love the EU and socialism. Which one the most I can't decide. Right now it's probably socialism.
    Well you cant have both the eu isnt socialist
  • Pagan2 said:

    Has natev67 posted on PB yet this evening?

    https://twitter.com/natev67/status/1354761258650771461?s=21

    Yes his pb name is hyufd probably
    No way is Nate a member of The Epping Massiv.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Has natev67 posted on PB yet this evening?

    https://twitter.com/natev67/status/1354761258650771461?s=21

    Yes his pb name is hyufd probably
    No way is Nate a member of The Epping Massiv.
    Did he vote non tory in a local election once and got kicked out for not being a true tory?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    I would be curious on vaccinations to see stats for percentage of politicians vaccinated plus friends and family vs general population. We seem to be getting a lot of reports it depends on who you know or are related to
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
    I love the EU and socialism. Which one the most I can't decide. Right now it's probably socialism.
    Well you cant have both the eu isnt socialist
    Which is why some of us voted Leave in order to escape from the clutches of the capitalist hegemony.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    Pagan2 said:

    I would be curious on vaccinations to see stats for percentage of politicians vaccinated plus friends and family vs general population. We seem to be getting a lot of reports it depends on who you know or are related to

    Ultimately, as long as people on the priority list aren’t being bumped, this isn’t a big deal
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Because Starmer would have sat on it, filled it with bureaucracy and will not have shown great world leading leadership like Boris/Hancock in ordering vaccines and then implementing it, subject of course to MHRA.
    By default, and by what the late artist Bob Ross would call a "happy accident" you are probably correct.

    Johnson was so devoid of any ideas for the management of Covid early in the pandemic, that without the benefit of a form book, he blindly bet the house on a vaccine. He won! The winner takes it all.
    Hope you are enjoying being a Conservative now :lol: l
    Not really. I think I have developed angina since yesterday (genuinely! the same symptoms as my late father, tight chest, short of breath, pain in the right arm). It could well be divine intervention, so I'll just go back to being a woolly liberal, make a doctors appointment, and hope for the best.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
    I love the EU and socialism. Which one the most I can't decide. Right now it's probably socialism.
    Well you cant have both the eu isnt socialist
    Which is why some of us voted Leave in order to escape from the clutches of the capitalist hegemony.
    While you have probably gathered I do not think socialism is a good thing, I do prefer the people of the country to vote for what they want their government to do not a narrow range of options specified by what the eu will allow. If they elect socialists then so be it I will campaign against it
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462
    edited February 2021

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Because you or I disagree with an unthought out posting you must be a hard left nutter. Easier to say than respond logically. The fact that some of the posters aren't even Labour supporters let alone hard left as is clear from their posts should be obvious. Clearly has no knowledge of my politics even though they are well known here. For me to be considered left let alone hard left must put pubman right of Attila the Hun.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Wanting a Covid jab doesn't make you hard left.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    I see The Lincoln Project is imploding at a greater increasing rate. One thing that has been clear over the past few years is that, as long as you say you hate Trump, you can sucker a lot of people into both giving you money and believing you are the good guys, even if your co-founder starts hitting on 14 year old boys (allegedly).
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Because you or I disagree with an unthought out posting you must be a hard left nutter. Easier to say than respond logically. The fact that some of the posters aren't even Labour supporters let alone hard left as is clear from their posts should be obvious. Clearly has no knowledge of my politics even though they are well known here. For me to be considered left let alone hard left must put pubman right of Attila the Hun.
    Attila the hun was actually pretty lefty..his people had bugger all, others had a lot he redistributed it. Seems pretty lefty to me
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462
    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Because you or I disagree with an unthought out posting you must be a hard left nutter. Easier to say than respond logically. The fact that some of the posters aren't even Labour supporters let alone hard left as is clear from their posts should be obvious. Clearly has no knowledge of my politics even though they are well known here. For me to be considered left let alone hard left must put pubman right of Attila the Hun.
    Attila the hun was actually pretty lefty..his people had bugger all, others had a lot he redistributed it. Seems pretty lefty to me
    It's a saying.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    kjh said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Because you or I disagree with an unthought out posting you must be a hard left nutter. Easier to say than respond logically. The fact that some of the posters aren't even Labour supporters let alone hard left as is clear from their posts should be obvious. Clearly has no knowledge of my politics even though they are well known here. For me to be considered left let alone hard left must put pubman right of Attila the Hun.
    Attila the hun was actually pretty lefty..his people had bugger all, others had a lot he redistributed it. Seems pretty lefty to me
    It's a saying.
    It maybe a saying but that doesn't mean its right. Attila was obviously a left wing agitator
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
    I love the EU and socialism. Which one the most I can't decide. Right now it's probably socialism.
    Well you cant have both the eu isnt socialist
    Which is why some of us voted Leave in order to escape from the clutches of the capitalist hegemony.
    While you have probably gathered I do not think socialism is a good thing, I do prefer the people of the country to vote for what they want their government to do not a narrow range of options specified by what the eu will allow. If they elect socialists then so be it I will campaign against it
    Also countries that do elect serious socialists generally get sick of them once the money runs out, e.g. France 1981-83 or us in the mid-70s.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403
    MrEd said:

    I see The Lincoln Project is imploding at a greater increasing rate. One thing that has been clear over the past few years is that, as long as you say you hate Trump, you can sucker a lot of people into both giving you money and believing you are the good guys, even if your co-founder starts hitting on 14 year old boys (allegedly).

    "you can sucker a lot of people into both giving you money and believing you are the good guys"

    Sounds like a good description of a certain former president and his family to me.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How about the Byzantine Empire?

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    But seriously, are there any ideal qualifications that one can study for in order to be prepared to run a country? We don't have a college for training Government ministers.
    I'd say economics and the political history of this country, with a smattering of law.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    image

    Goodnight....

    It might be OK. It certainly isn't a pineapple topping ON a pizza.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    I see The Lincoln Project is imploding at a greater increasing rate. One thing that has been clear over the past few years is that, as long as you say you hate Trump, you can sucker a lot of people into both giving you money and believing you are the good guys, even if your co-founder starts hitting on 14 year old boys (allegedly).

    "you can sucker a lot of people into both giving you money and believing you are the good guys"

    Sounds like a good description of a certain former president and his family to me.
    Indeed. I wouldn't dispute that.

    But, if you are setting your standards at Trump's level, then you can't really get on your moral high horse.
  • Fishing said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
    I love the EU and socialism. Which one the most I can't decide. Right now it's probably socialism.
    Well you cant have both the eu isnt socialist
    Which is why some of us voted Leave in order to escape from the clutches of the capitalist hegemony.
    While you have probably gathered I do not think socialism is a good thing, I do prefer the people of the country to vote for what they want their government to do not a narrow range of options specified by what the eu will allow. If they elect socialists then so be it I will campaign against it
    Also countries that do elect serious socialists generally get sick of them once the money runs out, e.g. France 1981-83 or us in the mid-70s.
    This country has often elected socialists.

    They just always run out of other people's money.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Fishing said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
    I love the EU and socialism. Which one the most I can't decide. Right now it's probably socialism.
    Well you cant have both the eu isnt socialist
    Which is why some of us voted Leave in order to escape from the clutches of the capitalist hegemony.
    While you have probably gathered I do not think socialism is a good thing, I do prefer the people of the country to vote for what they want their government to do not a narrow range of options specified by what the eu will allow. If they elect socialists then so be it I will campaign against it
    Also countries that do elect serious socialists generally get sick of them once the money runs out, e.g. France 1981-83 or us in the mid-70s.
    Nods which is why people over a certain age wont vote for a corbyn manifesto they remember how it went last time. Where as the young thinking with their hearts are all "This will work" without considering it has never worked before
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Is Boris still forcing the Iranian theocracy to hold her against their will? Poor show on his part.

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    slade said:

    DavidL said:

    And yet he is going to win by a mile, almost certainly on the first count. Doesn't say much for our political class, does it?
    The Tories can no longer compete in London, post Brexit. London is dead then for a generation, maybe forever.

    That leaves the Lib Dems.
    I’ve seen one very short clip of their candidate where she appears to be about 13 years old.

    The rule for London so far is don’t bother competing unless you are a v big beast.
    Luisa Porritt is actually 33. She was elected as a councillor in Camden in 2018 and became an MEP in 2019. She has worked in communications and lectures in economic history.
    So zero qualifications for one of the biggest jobs in regional government
    Not having qualifications for anything didnt stop a certain blond haired clownish ex-Etonian
    You're just bitter and twisted. Boris had more qualifications than almost any other PM in many decades.
    Being fair to nigel something I rarely am, I don't think being able to speak latin and ancient greek is a highly relevant qualification for running a country
    How many former Prime Ministers had more experience?
    1. Former Great Office of State
    2. Won a contested leadership election that ran to it's conclusion
    3. Won a national referendum against all expectations
    4. Twice won the countries largest direct election
    5. Media experience, edited a national magazine
    6. Capable of winning a landslide majority
    He was a disaster as FS, probably the worst ever. And the rest is all campaigning.
    FS is your opinion that he was a disaster.

    Campaigning is a major part of the job.

    Number 4 isn't just campaigning. He had eight years running England's largest devolved executive.
    Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe says hi!
    Responsibility for her situation lies entirely and 100% with the Iranians.
    Aided and abetted by the foolishly loose tongue of a British Foreign Secretary.

    I'll give you your "Boris Johnson, saviour of the universe" statements just to humour you. But I can't let you have it that Boris Johnson didn't make Mrs Ratcliffe's dreadful plight even worse.
    Who could release her tomorrow if they chose to? Is it:

    (a) The Iranians?
    (b) The Iranians?

    OR

    (c) The Iranians?

    You know people outside Britain have moral agency too, right?
    Well of course it is the Iranian's responsibility, but when dealing with an awkward situation with a country you are at loggerheads with there is such a thing as diplomacy and he screwed up spectacularly. She may or may not have got released but he wrecked that prospect.
    The Iranian regime does not play by normal rules of behaviour.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    edited February 2021
    Fishing said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
    I love the EU and socialism. Which one the most I can't decide. Right now it's probably socialism.
    Well you cant have both the eu isnt socialist
    Which is why some of us voted Leave in order to escape from the clutches of the capitalist hegemony.
    While you have probably gathered I do not think socialism is a good thing, I do prefer the people of the country to vote for what they want their government to do not a narrow range of options specified by what the eu will allow. If they elect socialists then so be it I will campaign against it
    Also countries that do elect serious socialists generally get sick of them once the money runs out, e.g. France 1981-83 or us in the mid-70s.
    I notice Philip has "liked" your post. I have it on good authority, from no less a source than HYUFD that Philip is a Labour/Socialist voter.
  • Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Wanting a Covid jab doesn't make you hard left.
    Absolutely right. That's why we should rejoice in this government's achievement in getting vaccinations to top 4 groups and we can get it to groups 5 to 9 by 31 March.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Fishing said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Excellent thread piece, Matt. Why you never done one before?

    I agree with the main thrust of your argument. You shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the bare figures, especially as we don't know where it all ends yet. I do however think it is reasonable to pause over the current results and reflect that the UK's vaccination roll-out probably would almost certainly have gone less well had the country still been part of the EU.

    This gives unreconstructed Europhiles like myself food for thought. My habit has been to mock Leavers over the absence of palpable benefits of leaving the EU. Now we appear to have a very tangible one.

    Of course nobody could have foreseen this, but it would be dishonest of Remainers to deny these very real consequences. If it can be reasonably argued that they derive from the very nature of the EU, and therefore further benefits of leaving the EU are likely to accrue in due course, there will be a lot of humble pie to be eaten, not least on this site.

    I might even have some myself.

    That’s a fair argument, but it also need to incorporate the counter-factual of what the response might have been had the perpetually awkward and non communitaire UK remained part of the EU.
    I cannot see that we’d happily have acquiesced to the current EU scheme - and it’s quite conceivable we’d still have gone our own way.

    We might even have persuaded the EU to have been more proactive.
    I agree with all of this. The takeaway for me, as I said yesterday, is that the EU is fantastic at running an extremely effective free trade area. It’s trying to be a federal government in waiting though and is pants at that. It was less the vaccine cock up, any individual government could screw that up, as the Hungary situation. Orban is a dictator, Hungary is at best a semi-democracy, and the EU can/will do nothing while Poland is still there to veto any Art 7 proceedings. And visa versa. So it is an extremely less effective guarantor of democratic values on the Continent than I believed it to have been.
    Interesting point, this. The EU as bulwark against political extremism is certainly in my locker as one of its many positives. And, yes, this argument falls if member states can be extreme and face no sanctions.
    Hang on you voted pro corbyn in 2019 but you liked the fact that the eu was a bulwark against extremism.....does not compute. A lot of the 2019 manifesto would have had the eu saying no can't do that like we are going to take 10 percent of companies over 250 employees
    Yes that's right. A conflict for me there.
    At least honest enough to admit it, most seem to say "but it would be allowed"
    I love the EU and socialism. Which one the most I can't decide. Right now it's probably socialism.
    Well you cant have both the eu isnt socialist
    Which is why some of us voted Leave in order to escape from the clutches of the capitalist hegemony.
    While you have probably gathered I do not think socialism is a good thing, I do prefer the people of the country to vote for what they want their government to do not a narrow range of options specified by what the eu will allow. If they elect socialists then so be it I will campaign against it
    Also countries that do elect serious socialists generally get sick of them once the money runs out, e.g. France 1981-83 or us in the mid-70s.
    I notice Philip has "liked" your post. I have it on good authority, from no less a source than HYUFD that Philip is a Labour/Socialist voter.
    HYUFD is a reliabe source on many things, sadly they all lie in a counterfactual universe where all tories wear jackboots and shout heil boris. Once pried over to a real universe his comments need more salt that a battalion of slugs
  • kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Because Starmer would have sat on it, filled it with bureaucracy and will not have shown great world leading leadership like Boris/Hancock in ordering vaccines and then implementing it, subject of course to MHRA.
    By default, and by what the late artist Bob Ross would call a "happy accident" you are probably correct.

    Johnson was so devoid of any ideas for the management of Covid early in the pandemic, that without the benefit of a form book, he blindly bet the house on a vaccine. He won! The winner takes it all.
    Hope you are enjoying being a Conservative now :lol: l
    Not really. I think I have developed angina since yesterday (genuinely! the same symptoms as my late father, tight chest, short of breath, pain in the right arm). It could well be divine intervention, so I'll just go back to being a woolly liberal, make a doctors appointment, and hope for the best.
    Ok take it easy - seriously - you are one of my favourite posters on here, even if you have gone back to Drakeford.

    Who in any case has now been reclassified as no 1 Lab leader UK 👍
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Floater said:
    To be fair not sure is kieths fault if some of his mp's and councillors are dodgy, judge parties by how they react after the people are actually convicted. Otherwise we are assuming guilt and making the prove innocence
  • kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Except that neither the MHRA nor the NHS sourced the supply of the vaccine. Kate Bingham's team - and Hancock vetoing Oxford partnering with the American firm against advice - had nothing to do with the MHRA, or the NHS.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    kjh said:

    In line with my widely-projected forecast of 'Tier 1' pubs 1 May ie open inside and out, open for 'rule of 6' or two households, mandatory track and trace, table service and masks in the loo. No substantial meal or curfew.

    Well done to Boris for meeting the 15m vaccine target. Britain leading the world once again. Let's set a new target of all post 50/health conditions by 14 March.

    Good job Starmer isn't leading it.
    I'm no fan of KS but I fail to see why the vaccine roll out would be any different. The credit goes to the MHRA and NHS.
    Because Starmer would have sat on it, filled it with bureaucracy and will not have shown great world leading leadership like Boris/Hancock in ordering vaccines and then implementing it, subject of course to MHRA.
    By default, and by what the late artist Bob Ross would call a "happy accident" you are probably correct.

    Johnson was so devoid of any ideas for the management of Covid early in the pandemic, that without the benefit of a form book, he blindly bet the house on a vaccine. He won! The winner takes it all.
    Hope you are enjoying being a Conservative now :lol: l
    Not really. I think I have developed angina since yesterday (genuinely! the same symptoms as my late father, tight chest, short of breath, pain in the right arm). It could well be divine intervention, so I'll just go back to being a woolly liberal, make a doctors appointment, and hope for the best.
    Ok take it easy - seriously - you are one of my favourite posters on here, even if you have gone back to Drakeford.

    Who in any case has now been reclassified as no 1 Lab leader UK 👍
    If they replace starmer with drakeford it would be a dream come true
  • kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Here we go again, hard left nutters. When challenged on this last time you failed to come up with one.
    Glad your memory is working well ♥️
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Well out of curiousity just googled keir starmer and now no he isnt going to get elected

    Tories just need to start calling him Rodney and anyone post 80's is going to think of him unconcsioulsly as the hapless fool from only fools and horses
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Here we go again, hard left nutters. When challenged on this last time you failed to come up with one.
    Glad your memory is working well ♥️
    I thought we established attila the hun was fairly hard left?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Here we go again, hard left nutters. When challenged on this last time you failed to come up with one.
    Glad your memory is working well ♥️
    I thought we established attila the hun was fairly hard left?
    Most pirates were all about redistribution as well from the haves to the have nots so another bunch
  • kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Because you or I disagree with an unthought out posting you must be a hard left nutter. Easier to say than respond logically. The fact that some of the posters aren't even Labour supporters let alone hard left as is clear from their posts should be obvious. Clearly has no knowledge of my politics even though they are well known here. For me to be considered left let alone hard left must put pubman right of Attila the Hun.
    I suppose in a way that makes LPM right in so far as that means practically all of us are hard left nutters. Which proves his point... I think... it makes my head hurt.
  • Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Here we go again, hard left nutters. When challenged on this last time you failed to come up with one.
    Glad your memory is working well ♥️
    I thought we established attila the hun was fairly hard left?
    Probably was, but is he on here?

    There are many hard left nutters on this site. On this page was one Corbynista who proudly says that he wants socialism.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Because you or I disagree with an unthought out posting you must be a hard left nutter. Easier to say than respond logically. The fact that some of the posters aren't even Labour supporters let alone hard left as is clear from their posts should be obvious. Clearly has no knowledge of my politics even though they are well known here. For me to be considered left let alone hard left must put pubman right of Attila the Hun.
    I suppose in a way that makes LPM right in so far as that means practically all of us are hard left nutters. Which proves his point... I think... it makes my head hurt.
    While we have had a little leg pulling here, a lot by me suggesting attila the hun and pirates were far left as they redistributed wealth from the haves to the have nots. Are there any real life examples of severe wealth redistribution that the far left advocates that did not involve violence?
  • Looks like lockdown all over by 31 March?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Here we go again, hard left nutters. When challenged on this last time you failed to come up with one.
    Glad your memory is working well ♥️
    I thought we established attila the hun was fairly hard left?
    Probably was, but is he on here?

    There are many hard left nutters on this site. On this page was one Corbynista who proudly says that he wants socialism.
    I heard he passed on a few centuries back but its plausible attila the stockbroker is on here. He is still alive
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Here we go again, hard left nutters. When challenged on this last time you failed to come up with one.
    Glad your memory is working well ♥️
    I thought we established attila the hun was fairly hard left?
    Probably was, but is he on here?

    There are many hard left nutters on this site. On this page was one Corbynista who proudly says that he wants socialism.
    HY has already tumbled your game. I bet you even bleed red!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Looks like lockdown all over by 31 March?

    The day before April Fools Day. Very apt for Mr Johnson.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    as I mentioned attila nostalgia struck so I offer this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_TKG5MJGzY
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Here we go again, hard left nutters. When challenged on this last time you failed to come up with one.
    Glad your memory is working well ♥️
    I thought we established attila the hun was fairly hard left?
    Probably was, but is he on here?

    There are many hard left nutters on this site. On this page was one Corbynista who proudly says that he wants socialism.
    I heard he passed on a few centuries back but its plausible attila the stockbroker is on here. He is still alive
    Or there's the baker Attila the Bun.

    https://tangled.fandom.com/wiki/Attila
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Here we go again, hard left nutters. When challenged on this last time you failed to come up with one.
    Glad your memory is working well ♥️
    I thought we established attila the hun was fairly hard left?
    Probably was, but is he on here?

    There are many hard left nutters on this site. On this page was one Corbynista who proudly says that he wants socialism.
    I heard he passed on a few centuries back but its plausible attila the stockbroker is on here. He is still alive
    Or there's the baker Attila the Bun.

    https://tangled.fandom.com/wiki/Attila
    Hehe mentioned it as was far far left in my teenage years
    Thankfully I grew up
  • No messing about.....

    BBC News - Covid: Australia halts New Zealand travel bubble over Auckland lockdown
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-56063335
  • Just to clarify I represent the social liberal wing of this site 👍
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Just to clarify I represent the social liberal wing of this site 👍

    Do you agree with gay marriage?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Because you or I disagree with an unthought out posting you must be a hard left nutter. Easier to say than respond logically. The fact that some of the posters aren't even Labour supporters let alone hard left as is clear from their posts should be obvious. Clearly has no knowledge of my politics even though they are well known here. For me to be considered left let alone hard left must put pubman right of Attila the Hun.
    I suppose in a way that makes LPM right in so far as that means practically all of us are hard left nutters. Which proves his point... I think... it makes my head hurt.
    Indeed. We just vary how deep our cover is...

    It's interesting to reflect that to some extent these things are often a matter of time. To Balfour, say, I expect we really would all seem hard left nutters, including LPM. Anyone who favours the NHS or any variant thereof and thinks votes for women reasonable is clearly in the pay of the ghost of Lenin.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Because you or I disagree with an unthought out posting you must be a hard left nutter. Easier to say than respond logically. The fact that some of the posters aren't even Labour supporters let alone hard left as is clear from their posts should be obvious. Clearly has no knowledge of my politics even though they are well known here. For me to be considered left let alone hard left must put pubman right of Attila the Hun.
    I suppose in a way that makes LPM right in so far as that means practically all of us are hard left nutters. Which proves his point... I think... it makes my head hurt.
    Indeed. We just vary how deep our cover is...

    It's interesting to reflect that to some extent these things are often a matter of time. To Balfour, say, I expect we really would all seem hard left nutters, including LPM. Anyone who favours the NHS or any variant thereof and thinks votes for women reasonable is clearly in the pay of the ghost of Lenin.
    I dont favour the nhs, I do favour a health service free at point of delivery. I only favour votes for women if they earn them as I do for men and non nationals
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited February 2021
    Floater said:
    Leaving aside the innocent until proven guilty part, some councillors is pretty weaksauce, there are thousands of the buggers some are bound to have committed crimes. And was Hatton even in Labour?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265



    Not really. I think I have developed angina since yesterday (genuinely! the same symptoms as my late father, tight chest, short of breath, pain in the right arm). It could well be divine intervention, so I'll just go back to being a woolly liberal, make a doctors appointment, and hope for the best.

    Sorry to hear about the health issues - an early GP appointment sounds a good idea. Look after yourself, whatever party you currently fancy!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    Lot of hard left nutters on here tonight. Plus ca change! :lol:

    Not me squire. I was a raging Tory yesterday, by some accounts.
    Because you or I disagree with an unthought out posting you must be a hard left nutter. Easier to say than respond logically. The fact that some of the posters aren't even Labour supporters let alone hard left as is clear from their posts should be obvious. Clearly has no knowledge of my politics even though they are well known here. For me to be considered left let alone hard left must put pubman right of Attila the Hun.
    I suppose in a way that makes LPM right in so far as that means practically all of us are hard left nutters. Which proves his point... I think... it makes my head hurt.
    Indeed. We just vary how deep our cover is...

    It's interesting to reflect that to some extent these things are often a matter of time. To Balfour, say, I expect we really would all seem hard left nutters, including LPM. Anyone who favours the NHS or any variant thereof and thinks votes for women reasonable is clearly in the pay of the ghost of Lenin.
    I dont favour the nhs, I do favour a health service free at point of delivery. I only favour votes for women if they earn them as I do for men and non nationals
    Balfour purses his lips, and decides you're a soft left nutter. :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Apparently 74 out of 135 seats for the 3 separtist parties in Catalonia, albeit turnout well down on last time it seems.
This discussion has been closed.