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BREXIT. Undoing (some of) the damage. Part 2: From Principles to Policies – politicalbetting.com

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  • Using words like 'demented beliefs' and posters who 'infest this site says more about you then any poster on here

    Simply no need

    We can all disagree with each other but being rank unpleasant is unnecessary

    Indeed, just imagine if he called them like the Stasi.
    You know full well that was satire
    How do you know Gardenwalker's comments weren't also satire?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    TOPPING said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Have to confess, the overnight loss of all EU share trading to Amsterdam, is the first bit of Project Fear which has:

    1 Come true

    AND

    2 Given me the fear

    One kinda knew it was coming, but the speed and scale still shocks. It might even make me regret my vote, if only the EU had not behaved with such flailing, malignant incompetence, in recent weeks.

    But, if the City does collapse (quick or slow), we are in deep shit. Massively in debt just as our tax base disappears. Not good. Not good at all.

    Although in the super long term - which is how Brexit must be judged to have any chance of being deemed a success - a less bloated City could be a good thing. Yes, it pays lots of tax, but it also sucks so much talent and energy and resource and focus out of other (arguably more value added) sectors and it adds enormously to regional inequalities. How many smart young Northerners, for example, who could have stayed up there and worked in high tech manufacturing or renewable energy or medical research - or a hundred other things that could flourish outside London and the South East given the steer - end up instead sitting in a trading floor in EC4 or Canary, or a room in Mayfair, dreaming up "products" to help the crooked rich launder their money and dodge tax etc etc? It's a huge number. Think of the potential wasted. It's the British disease, along with private schools.
    You emotional remainers (as distinct the reluctant, pragmatic remainers like me) really struggle to accept that Brexit is already, and always will be, judged as a success by those who voted for it. They are delighted - delighted - that we have left the EU. That`s it.
    Does that mean you think it's a success or you can understand why people think it's a success?

    Because from my perspective, Brexit looks massively unsuccessful, and I am not as an emotional a Remainer as all that. It's simply that things have turned out pretty much as I expected them to, given that the project was based on assumptions that, while being reasonable in themselves, were never likely to pan out. Same as the Iraq War. I knew from the off that was unlikely to turn out well. It wasn't that I objected to removing a horrible dictator.
    The latter : I can understand why people think it's a success.
    This is interesting. Would it be fair to say you are an emotional Leaver, who would like Brexit to be a success but hasn't been invested enough in the project at any point to ignore the practical problems with it? But really you would have like to have voted Leave, if only you could have made it add up?

    It seems to me this is different from another group of people who voted Remain but are now fully on board and have the same view of Brexit reality as those that voted Leave. I would call those people Leavers.
    @FF43 For me the referendum offered us a dire choice. Like being given a stick to grasp with shit at both ends. I dallied with voting leave, but dismissed this because my chief reason would have been out of spite towards Cameron who I blamed (and still do) for having the bloody referendum in the first place.

    Vote to leave = pragmatically stupid; you can`t just leave decades of international diplomacy and peace-keeping. Vote to stay = poorer position within the EU and any scope we had to moderate its aims would be diminished.

    The other influence on me was the environmental work that the EU has done - particularly on rewilding. Monbiot was similarly conflicted but voted remain in the end for this reason.

    So it was a clear remain vote from me in the end, but I have no love for the EU and like most pragmatic remainers on balance wish it didn`t exist at all because it puts the UK in a quandary - but while it does we should have remained in it and piss inside the tent.

    Best we can hope for now is other nations leave too and the project crumbles.
    Thanks. I accept wanting the EU to collapse is a rational desire for a UK that is outside the project. It's not a view I take myself, partly emotional I guess, because I think the EU is good for Europe, whether the UK is in it or not, and partly practical because now we have left we have to deal with the EU as it is. We have no say on that and it's not good either for us or our partners to get drawn into deciding what they should do.
    It is clearly in our interests to have a wealthy and stable Europe, and in that sense having the EU next to us works well.

    On the other hand, a Europe that self-consciously sees itself as competing *against* the U.K., whether economically or diplomatically, is more problematic.

    It is already clear that U.K. was able to block or temper certain foreign policy instincts in the EU, and it is not a good thing that we have surrendered that leverage.
    As Donald Tusk, I think, put it, it isn't in the interests of the EU to protect the UK from the consequences of its decision to leave the European Union. There are several motivations behind the EU move to make things more difficult for the UK, some strategic, some opportunistic, some principled and some emotional. Those reasons are powerful and the UK won't get anywhere by saying the EU is unreasonable.

    Nevertheless it's also in the EU and its members' interest to have a good relationship with a powerful near country, given that it has decided to leave the Union. There is a tension there. To satisfy both interests the EU needs to come up with an arrangement that is distinctly inferior to membership, yet is still valuable to the third party. I don't think they have worked that one out yet.
    Actually your last paragraph puts the lie to your first.

    It is very much in the interests of the UK to say the EU is being unreasonable. If they are going to persist in that attitude then we have nothing to gain from having a good relationship with them. If they expect us to behave reasonably towards them then they have to reciprocate. It is a two way relationship and both sides have to be reasonable. If either is not then the whole thing fails.

    The EU so far does not seem to have grasped this basic concept. They recognise that the UK could potentially be a threat to them if it follows a certain course (and I am not advocating that) but seem to be unwilling to do anything to prevent that happening.
    Lol.

    Right now Rickhardt Tindellwanger is staying the precise opposite on PB.de
    As I have already observed you clearly don't believe in people being reasonable. I think your extremist views are rather unfortunate when so many people on both sides are advocating common sense approaches. Thankfully you are in a small minority that can easily be ignored.
    Nowhere have I said the people should not be reasonable.

    That is your, barmy, interpretation, straight after a post where you called me both a fascist and a communist.
    Dickie's winning rhetorical style is to say something like "you would have run up behind that disabled person in the queue at Aldi and hit her over the head with a bag of chips so I think we can ignore your views about EU Reg EU/43G/2021/RX"
    Lol.

    He is one of the many EU obsessed “self-righteous brothers” that infest this site.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EqPAuotjkM4

    Oi! Barnier! NO!
    Using words like 'demented beliefs' and posters who 'infest this site says more about you then any poster on here

    Simply no need

    We can all disagree with each other but being rank unpleasant is unnecessary
    Oh god. Mary Whitehouse has woken up.
    No

    My son has just woken up in Canada from his second electroconvulsive therapy session and throw away insults on mental health are unnecessary
    I am sorry for your situation and worried about your son. It is unpleasant indeed to think of another PBer suffering “in real life”.

    But I don’t think you should try to veto “vigorous” debate either.

    Out of respect for you, I will reserve my references to mental health.
  • FF43 said:


    Furthermore, and this is a curious thing, it is in the EU's interest to maximise Brexit loss and the UK's interest to minimise it. Yet the UK Leaver government does nothing to minimise the loss. Instead it aggravates it. The UK government is doing the EU a favour here.

    Astute point. It really is weird.
    To minimise the loss, one would have to admit there is loss.

    That is something the Brexiters are psychologically, and perhaps politically, unable to do.
    Because it isn't a loss. Its a choice.

    Why would we want to minimise what we've chosen?
  • FF43 said:


    Furthermore, and this is a curious thing, it is in the EU's interest to maximise Brexit loss and the UK's interest to minimise it. Yet the UK Leaver government does nothing to minimise the loss. Instead it aggravates it. The UK government is doing the EU a favour here.

    Astute point. It really is weird.
    To minimise the loss, one would have to admit there is loss.

    That is something the Brexiters are psychologically, and perhaps politically, unable to do.
    True.
  • Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Why do pollsters still try to polarise the country into remain and leave by analysing their findings in this way? It`s becoming irritating.
    Because alongside age and educational attainment level, how people voted in the referendum are pretty good predictors for how people will vote on a whole range of opinions.
    Feels like they are deliberately rubbing salt into a wound to me.
    Unfortunately, as the last couple of days here have shown, while the name of the divide may have changed, we're no more united now than we were in 2016. Same people, same underlying question.

    Since things are a little heated around here... Time to start a real fight

    Chorizo in Paella - yes or no?

    Based on three years in Seville...

    Put anything you like in. The point is to cook for so long that nobody knows what the ingredients are.

    And on that bombshell, I'm off to make mushroom risotto. Play nicely.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited February 2021

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is the problematic quote afaics:

    Jews were beaten in the streets, not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors … even by children,” the report said quoting the post.

    “Because history is edited, most people today don’t realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views.”

    IMV hating someone is hating someone. It doesn't really matter why.

    But on the left it is totemic that motive matters more than action. (cf the higher sentences for racist/sexuality motivated crimes in the UK vs generic crimes)
    Mens Rea has been part of criminal law for a very long time I think. The motive makes the crime in many cases, not just those involving hate.
    Yes, but I was thinking not of Mens Rea, but the fact that you have a higher sentence for beating up a black or gay person (as a hate crime) vs beating up someone because they just happen to be in the area.

    For me it's the beating up that is the crime that needs punishing, not the "why".
    So, take the Stephen Lawrence murder. For you the racist motivation adds not a jot to the weight of the crime?
    No. A black man's life is worth the same as a white man's life (or a man, or woman, of any other colour).

    A murder should be punished as such.

    Of course, the parole board, in due course, will need to consider the probability of reoffending and might come to a different view at that time.
    But to Stephen Lawrence's killers, his life was not worth the same as a white man's. Had he been white, he would not have been killed.

    You also said earlier that it was a 'leftist' thing that racism etc. was factored in to punishment. I believe that the idea of racially aggravated crimes being punished more severely has been supported by the Tories as well. If not, they certainly haven't changed the law.
    I have to say that your earlier point made me pause to consider my thinking on this issue. In general, I would say that the concept of a hate crime doesn't make much sense: hating someone is not illegal, murdering them is. Therefore, judging a crime motivated by hate to be more serious than one without that motive is irrational, like adding 0 to 1 and getting 2.

    Your point that certain crimes wouldn't have happened at all without the hate component - e.g. racist murderers will not kill at all if the right type of victim is not available to them - is interesting, but does it actually increase the severity of a particular crime? I would still tend to say not - few murders are motivated by liking for the victim in any case, and in the end the victim would be just as dead if they were killed for money or due to insanity on the part of the killer or any other reason.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Have to confess, the overnight loss of all EU share trading to Amsterdam, is the first bit of Project Fear which has:

    1 Come true

    AND

    2 Given me the fear

    One kinda knew it was coming, but the speed and scale still shocks. It might even make me regret my vote, if only the EU had not behaved with such flailing, malignant incompetence, in recent weeks.

    But, if the City does collapse (quick or slow), we are in deep shit. Massively in debt just as our tax base disappears. Not good. Not good at all.

    Although in the super long term - which is how Brexit must be judged to have any chance of being deemed a success - a less bloated City could be a good thing. Yes, it pays lots of tax, but it also sucks so much talent and energy and resource and focus out of other (arguably more value added) sectors and it adds enormously to regional inequalities. How many smart young Northerners, for example, who could have stayed up there and worked in high tech manufacturing or renewable energy or medical research - or a hundred other things that could flourish outside London and the South East given the steer - end up instead sitting in a trading floor in EC4 or Canary, or a room in Mayfair, dreaming up "products" to help the crooked rich launder their money and dodge tax etc etc? It's a huge number. Think of the potential wasted. It's the British disease, along with private schools.
    You emotional remainers (as distinct the reluctant, pragmatic remainers like me) really struggle to accept that Brexit is already, and always will be, judged as a success by those who voted for it. They are delighted - delighted - that we have left the EU. That`s it.
    Actually, I do know that, although I wish it were not so. It's done, we're out, thank fuck for that, what a palaver. NEXT. The only way this changes is if it's an absolute and obvious disaster that can be pinned on Brexit. I'm hoping for this and any trueblood Remainer who says they aren't is fibbing.
    What a strange way to live a life.
    No different to Europhobes wanting the EU to struggle and ideally collapse.
    I find agnostics more strange.
    It is not the same, because reprehensible and stupid as those people are, they are not willing their own country, where they pay taxes, and bring up their families, to fail. They are merely selfish, not active self-harmers.
    First, there is no moral superiority in wishing harm on foreigners rather than Brits. Second, none of the harm done by Brexit will be caused by people who opposed it. It's outrageous to suggest this. That's victim blaming. That's gaslighting. It's just a complete and utter bunch of bananas.
    Wishing harm - no - but don`t you hold the widely accepted notion of "an expanding circle of moral concern, beginning with our own family or tribe, and expanding over time to include larger groups, nations, families of nations, all humans and perhaps even nonhuman animals"?

    https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/11/15/501972594/expanding-the-circle-of-moral-concern
    When it comes to the impact on me of something, this holds. So ceteris paribus I will be more moved by a murder in my street than in my City than in the UK than in France than in etc etc. But the moral concern? Hmm, not sure. Have to give that a deep think. Which I will now. I won't be able to stop myself. Thanks a bunch.
    Whilst you are doing so - to be even more provocative - consider why you would be more concerned about humans you don`t know in a far-off land ahead of, say, endanged mountain gorillas whose plight is the fault of humans destroying their habitat. Let me know when you`ve squared that one. I think that at root you are an arch humanist, which is basically religion with the God bit taken out.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    New thread.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,848
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Have to confess, the overnight loss of all EU share trading to Amsterdam, is the first bit of Project Fear which has:

    1 Come true

    AND

    2 Given me the fear

    One kinda knew it was coming, but the speed and scale still shocks. It might even make me regret my vote, if only the EU had not behaved with such flailing, malignant incompetence, in recent weeks.

    But, if the City does collapse (quick or slow), we are in deep shit. Massively in debt just as our tax base disappears. Not good. Not good at all.

    Although in the super long term - which is how Brexit must be judged to have any chance of being deemed a success - a less bloated City could be a good thing. Yes, it pays lots of tax, but it also sucks so much talent and energy and resource and focus out of other (arguably more value added) sectors and it adds enormously to regional inequalities. How many smart young Northerners, for example, who could have stayed up there and worked in high tech manufacturing or renewable energy or medical research - or a hundred other things that could flourish outside London and the South East given the steer - end up instead sitting in a trading floor in EC4 or Canary, or a room in Mayfair, dreaming up "products" to help the crooked rich launder their money and dodge tax etc etc? It's a huge number. Think of the potential wasted. It's the British disease, along with private schools.
    You emotional remainers (as distinct the reluctant, pragmatic remainers like me) really struggle to accept that Brexit is already, and always will be, judged as a success by those who voted for it. They are delighted - delighted - that we have left the EU. That`s it.
    Actually, I do know that, although I wish it were not so. It's done, we're out, thank fuck for that, what a palaver. NEXT. The only way this changes is if it's an absolute and obvious disaster that can be pinned on Brexit. I'm hoping for this and any trueblood Remainer who says they aren't is fibbing.
    One can see how the absolute and obvious success of the UK vaccine programme - which is being pinned on Brexit by none other than the self-described EU 'tanker' itself! - might be distressing to you then.
    That's a nice try. :smile:

    No, I am pleased about our vaccine rollout. Unlike many Leavers, however, I am not getting a buzz from the EU's troubles in same. It has little, in truth, to do with Brexit, and much to do with 'necessity is the mother of invention', our necessity being particularly acute, viz our death toll and our healthcare system creaking under its Covid caseload. But, yes, a slight Brexit angle too. That's fair.

    And to clarify on Brexit economic fallout. It will be negative, there is no way it won't be, it's almost laws of physics territory, so my hope is simply that it is clearly so - the better for Brexit pinning and hence future rectification. So, for example, we don't want the slow steady slide into relative penury over 50 years. That's no good to anybody. What we want are some quick "wins", the big factory closing, say, with an accompanying announcement the supply chain just doesn't hack it anymore.

    The truth is, and I know this will get a chorus of boos but I can take it, I view the Leave vote as bad behaviour. And bad behaviour should not be rewarded. It should be punished.
    You say that the Brexit economic fallout will be negative - and I agree - but what if the fallout is positive to the UK? I mean conclusively positive.

    It seems to me that you are hankering for outcomes which are not confined to the UK`s best interests. Is that fair? And if so would it be useful to know what you admire so much about the EU even when it goes against the interests of your own country. I`m not getting at you, I`m interested to know the mind of a type of remainer that I don`t understand. Is it a dislike (a la Corbyn) of the whole concept of the nation state?
    Great question and of course I can answer but tbc since I'm off. Don't want to do a flip & frivolous. They get used against me sometimes by my enemies and I have to spend ages on damage limitation.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Why do pollsters still try to polarise the country into remain and leave by analysing their findings in this way? It`s becoming irritating.
    Because alongside age and educational attainment level, how people voted in the referendum are pretty good predictors for how people will vote on a whole range of opinions.
    Feels like they are deliberately rubbing salt into a wound to me.
    Unfortunately, as the last couple of days here have shown, while the name of the divide may have changed, we're no more united now than we were in 2016. Same people, same underlying question.

    Since things are a little heated around here... Time to start a real fight

    Chorizo in Paella - yes or no?

    Based on three years in Seville...

    Put anything you like in. The point is to cook for so long that nobody knows what the ingredients are.

    And on that bombshell, I'm off to make mushroom risotto. Play nicely.
    Chorizo in Paella gets a thumbs up from me. (Then again chorizo in anything is a winner isn`t it?)
  • TOPPING said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Have to confess, the overnight loss of all EU share trading to Amsterdam, is the first bit of Project Fear which has:

    1 Come true

    AND

    2 Given me the fear

    One kinda knew it was coming, but the speed and scale still shocks. It might even make me regret my vote, if only the EU had not behaved with such flailing, malignant incompetence, in recent weeks.

    But, if the City does collapse (quick or slow), we are in deep shit. Massively in debt just as our tax base disappears. Not good. Not good at all.

    Although in the super long term - which is how Brexit must be judged to have any chance of being deemed a success - a less bloated City could be a good thing. Yes, it pays lots of tax, but it also sucks so much talent and energy and resource and focus out of other (arguably more value added) sectors and it adds enormously to regional inequalities. How many smart young Northerners, for example, who could have stayed up there and worked in high tech manufacturing or renewable energy or medical research - or a hundred other things that could flourish outside London and the South East given the steer - end up instead sitting in a trading floor in EC4 or Canary, or a room in Mayfair, dreaming up "products" to help the crooked rich launder their money and dodge tax etc etc? It's a huge number. Think of the potential wasted. It's the British disease, along with private schools.
    You emotional remainers (as distinct the reluctant, pragmatic remainers like me) really struggle to accept that Brexit is already, and always will be, judged as a success by those who voted for it. They are delighted - delighted - that we have left the EU. That`s it.
    Does that mean you think it's a success or you can understand why people think it's a success?

    Because from my perspective, Brexit looks massively unsuccessful, and I am not as an emotional a Remainer as all that. It's simply that things have turned out pretty much as I expected them to, given that the project was based on assumptions that, while being reasonable in themselves, were never likely to pan out. Same as the Iraq War. I knew from the off that was unlikely to turn out well. It wasn't that I objected to removing a horrible dictator.
    The latter : I can understand why people think it's a success.
    This is interesting. Would it be fair to say you are an emotional Leaver, who would like Brexit to be a success but hasn't been invested enough in the project at any point to ignore the practical problems with it? But really you would have like to have voted Leave, if only you could have made it add up?

    It seems to me this is different from another group of people who voted Remain but are now fully on board and have the same view of Brexit reality as those that voted Leave. I would call those people Leavers.
    @FF43 For me the referendum offered us a dire choice. Like being given a stick to grasp with shit at both ends. I dallied with voting leave, but dismissed this because my chief reason would have been out of spite towards Cameron who I blamed (and still do) for having the bloody referendum in the first place.

    Vote to leave = pragmatically stupid; you can`t just leave decades of international diplomacy and peace-keeping. Vote to stay = poorer position within the EU and any scope we had to moderate its aims would be diminished.

    The other influence on me was the environmental work that the EU has done - particularly on rewilding. Monbiot was similarly conflicted but voted remain in the end for this reason.

    So it was a clear remain vote from me in the end, but I have no love for the EU and like most pragmatic remainers on balance wish it didn`t exist at all because it puts the UK in a quandary - but while it does we should have remained in it and piss inside the tent.

    Best we can hope for now is other nations leave too and the project crumbles.
    Thanks. I accept wanting the EU to collapse is a rational desire for a UK that is outside the project. It's not a view I take myself, partly emotional I guess, because I think the EU is good for Europe, whether the UK is in it or not, and partly practical because now we have left we have to deal with the EU as it is. We have no say on that and it's not good either for us or our partners to get drawn into deciding what they should do.
    It is clearly in our interests to have a wealthy and stable Europe, and in that sense having the EU next to us works well.

    On the other hand, a Europe that self-consciously sees itself as competing *against* the U.K., whether economically or diplomatically, is more problematic.

    It is already clear that U.K. was able to block or temper certain foreign policy instincts in the EU, and it is not a good thing that we have surrendered that leverage.
    As Donald Tusk, I think, put it, it isn't in the interests of the EU to protect the UK from the consequences of its decision to leave the European Union. There are several motivations behind the EU move to make things more difficult for the UK, some strategic, some opportunistic, some principled and some emotional. Those reasons are powerful and the UK won't get anywhere by saying the EU is unreasonable.

    Nevertheless it's also in the EU and its members' interest to have a good relationship with a powerful near country, given that it has decided to leave the Union. There is a tension there. To satisfy both interests the EU needs to come up with an arrangement that is distinctly inferior to membership, yet is still valuable to the third party. I don't think they have worked that one out yet.
    Actually your last paragraph puts the lie to your first.

    It is very much in the interests of the UK to say the EU is being unreasonable. If they are going to persist in that attitude then we have nothing to gain from having a good relationship with them. If they expect us to behave reasonably towards them then they have to reciprocate. It is a two way relationship and both sides have to be reasonable. If either is not then the whole thing fails.

    The EU so far does not seem to have grasped this basic concept. They recognise that the UK could potentially be a threat to them if it follows a certain course (and I am not advocating that) but seem to be unwilling to do anything to prevent that happening.
    Lol.

    Right now Rickhardt Tindellwanger is staying the precise opposite on PB.de
    As I have already observed you clearly don't believe in people being reasonable. I think your extremist views are rather unfortunate when so many people on both sides are advocating common sense approaches. Thankfully you are in a small minority that can easily be ignored.
    Nowhere have I said the people should not be reasonable.

    That is your, barmy, interpretation, straight after a post where you called me both a fascist and a communist.
    Dickie's winning rhetorical style is to say something like "you would have run up behind that disabled person in the queue at Aldi and hit her over the head with a bag of chips so I think we can ignore your views about EU Reg EU/43G/2021/RX"
    Lol.

    He is one of the many EU obsessed “self-righteous brothers” that infest this site.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EqPAuotjkM4

    Oi! Barnier! NO!
    Using words like 'demented beliefs' and posters who 'infest this site says more about you then any poster on here

    Simply no need

    We can all disagree with each other but being rank unpleasant is unnecessary
    Oh god. Mary Whitehouse has woken up.
    No

    My son has just woken up in Canada from his second electroconvulsive therapy session and throw away insults on mental health are unnecessary
    I am sorry for your situation and worried about your son. It is unpleasant indeed to think of another PBer suffering “in real life”.

    But I don’t think you should try to veto “vigorous” debate either.

    Out of respect for you, I will reserve my references to mental health.
    That is kind of you

    When you are experienced a loved ones complete mental collapse and in a huge crisis you realise how much mental health should be respected and not referred to lightly
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is the problematic quote afaics:

    Jews were beaten in the streets, not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors … even by children,” the report said quoting the post.

    “Because history is edited, most people today don’t realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views.”

    IMV hating someone is hating someone. It doesn't really matter why.

    But on the left it is totemic that motive matters more than action. (cf the higher sentences for racist/sexuality motivated crimes in the UK vs generic crimes)
    Mens Rea has been part of criminal law for a very long time I think. The motive makes the crime in many cases, not just those involving hate.
    Yes, but I was thinking not of Mens Rea, but the fact that you have a higher sentence for beating up a black or gay person (as a hate crime) vs beating up someone because they just happen to be in the area.

    For me it's the beating up that is the crime that needs punishing, not the "why".
    So, take the Stephen Lawrence murder. For you the racist motivation adds not a jot to the weight of the crime?
    No. A black man's life is worth the same as a white man's life (or a man, or woman, of any other colour).

    A murder should be punished as such.

    Of course, the parole board, in due course, will need to consider the probability of reoffending and might come to a different view at that time.
    Reminds me of that South Park episode 'If you're going to harm another human being, you better make damn sure they're the same colour as you are'.

    I do think there are instances where the motivation is partly relevant.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    FF43 said:


    Furthermore, and this is a curious thing, it is in the EU's interest to maximise Brexit loss and the UK's interest to minimise it. Yet the UK Leaver government does nothing to minimise the loss. Instead it aggravates it. The UK government is doing the EU a favour here.

    Astute point. It really is weird.
    To minimise the loss, one would have to admit there is loss.

    That is something the Brexiters are psychologically, and perhaps politically, unable to do.
    Because it isn't a loss. Its a choice.

    Why would we want to minimise what we've chosen?
    Here are some no loss figures:

    The further costs are as follows: on top of the ferry fare:

    Dover customs check per truck E135

    BCP (Customs) per horse E140

    DCSE (inspection number) per horse E30

    Vets per horse E32

    A total cost of E202 per horse and E135 for the truck.

    At weekends these costs will be x 2, and on bank holidays x 2.25.

    On top of the Eurotunnel fare:

    Customs check per truck E135

    Eurotunnel surcharge per truck E490

    BCP per horse (charged by Eurotunnel) E325

    DSCE per horse E30

    Vets per horse E31

    A total cost of E386 per horse and E625 per truck

    At weekends these costs will be x 2 and on bank holidays x 2.25.

    On reaching Calais there is a vet check:

    veterinary entry per horse E50

    Writing or updating DSCE per horse E30

    Health Port Charges per horse E50

    Customs per horse E30.49

    Total of E160.49 per horse

    No extra charges for weekends and bank holidays.

    http://www.sarahlewisshowjumping.com/blog-1/2021/2/10/brexit-calculating-the-costs-to-competitors-and-horse-welfare

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Probably:

    When will the new border rules be lifted?
    Matt Hancock refused to answer - and twice hinted it could be as late as the Autumn.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/hotel-quarantine-rules-full-10000-23485268

    I really do not understand the need for instant gratification. The country, as well as the globe, is suffering from an illness. Whatever Contrarian's demented views on the subject it takes as long as it takes to get better. Based on today's figures we are amost back (fingers crossed) to where we were last Autumn but with a vaccine in our pockets. We still obsess on this site about a referendum that took place 5 years ago as if it were yesterday. What's 9 months?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited February 2021
    DougSeal said:

    Probably:

    When will the new border rules be lifted?
    Matt Hancock refused to answer - and twice hinted it could be as late as the Autumn.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/hotel-quarantine-rules-full-10000-23485268

    I really do not understand the need for instant gratification. The country, as well as the globe, is suffering from an illness. Whatever Contrarian's demented views on the subject it takes as long as it takes to get better. Based on today's figures we are amost back (fingers crossed) to where we were last Autumn but with a vaccine in our pockets. We still obsess on this site about a referendum that took place 5 years ago as if it were yesterday. What's 9 months?
    A lot.

    I believe 20% of the population have contemplated suicide during the pandemic.

    I myself, normally of an even, unexcitable temperament, am now struggling to maintain my spirits after nearly a year under some kind of restriction plus ongoing financial and family stress.

    9 months is a lot.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:
    Question about polls like these;
    The classic sociological definition of Working Class is C2DE, which includes state pensioners. There are 12 million of them.

    How much of the "WC people love Boris" is really "retired people love Boris"- important, but slightly different?
    Indeed, the NRS social grades need updating.

    It doesn't seem to realise there can be upper/middle class pensioners.
    Only those solely reliant on the state pension are in class C2DE, those with substantial private pensions would be in class ABC1

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1198929449347104769?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    DougSeal said:

    Probably:

    When will the new border rules be lifted?
    Matt Hancock refused to answer - and twice hinted it could be as late as the Autumn.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/hotel-quarantine-rules-full-10000-23485268

    I really do not understand the need for instant gratification. The country, as well as the globe, is suffering from an illness. Whatever Contrarian's demented views on the subject it takes as long as it takes to get better. Based on today's figures we are amost back (fingers crossed) to where we were last Autumn but with a vaccine in our pockets. We still obsess on this site about a referendum that took place 5 years ago as if it were yesterday. What's 9 months?
    A lot.

    I believe 20% of the population have contemplated suicide during the pandemic.

    I myself, normally of an even, unexcitable temperament, am now struggling to maintain my spirits after nearly a year under some kind of restriction plus ongoing financial and family stress.

    9 months is a lot.
    I agree with you on this point, though I do also wonder how any estimate of those contemplating suicide is arrived at.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Have to confess, the overnight loss of all EU share trading to Amsterdam, is the first bit of Project Fear which has:

    1 Come true

    AND

    2 Given me the fear

    One kinda knew it was coming, but the speed and scale still shocks. It might even make me regret my vote, if only the EU had not behaved with such flailing, malignant incompetence, in recent weeks.

    But, if the City does collapse (quick or slow), we are in deep shit. Massively in debt just as our tax base disappears. Not good. Not good at all.

    Although in the super long term - which is how Brexit must be judged to have any chance of being deemed a success - a less bloated City could be a good thing. Yes, it pays lots of tax, but it also sucks so much talent and energy and resource and focus out of other (arguably more value added) sectors and it adds enormously to regional inequalities. How many smart young Northerners, for example, who could have stayed up there and worked in high tech manufacturing or renewable energy or medical research - or a hundred other things that could flourish outside London and the South East given the steer - end up instead sitting in a trading floor in EC4 or Canary, or a room in Mayfair, dreaming up "products" to help the crooked rich launder their money and dodge tax etc etc? It's a huge number. Think of the potential wasted. It's the British disease, along with private schools.
    You emotional remainers (as distinct the reluctant, pragmatic remainers like me) really struggle to accept that Brexit is already, and always will be, judged as a success by those who voted for it. They are delighted - delighted - that we have left the EU. That`s it.
    Actually, I do know that, although I wish it were not so. It's done, we're out, thank fuck for that, what a palaver. NEXT. The only way this changes is if it's an absolute and obvious disaster that can be pinned on Brexit. I'm hoping for this and any trueblood Remainer who says they aren't is fibbing.
    What a strange way to live a life.
    No different to Europhobes wanting the EU to struggle and ideally collapse.
    I find agnostics more strange.
    It is not the same, because reprehensible and stupid as those people are, they are not willing their own country, where they pay taxes, and bring up their families, to fail. They are merely selfish, not active self-harmers.
    First, there is no moral superiority in wishing harm on foreigners rather than Brits. Second, none of the harm done by Brexit will be caused by people who opposed it. It's outrageous to suggest this. That's victim blaming. That's gaslighting. It's just a complete and utter bunch of bananas.
    I didn't claim there was any moral superiority - I merely suggest that wanting your own country to fail falls into the 'nuts' category as opposed to just the 'git' category.

    As for your suggestion that none of the harm 'done by' Brexit will be caused by people who opposed it - patent balls. Would you (for example) given a position of influence, work overtime to ease the immediate pressures to a respective industry caused by leaving the EU, or would you rather let things be as they will be, as an object lesson on the ghastliness of Brexit? Your posts suggest the latter. And that (if the people who oppose Brexit are in positions of responsibility) IS a problem, as we've already experienced in Scotland, with officials taking 5 hours to perform checks on fish that should take half an hour.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Have to confess, the overnight loss of all EU share trading to Amsterdam, is the first bit of Project Fear which has:

    1 Come true

    AND

    2 Given me the fear

    One kinda knew it was coming, but the speed and scale still shocks. It might even make me regret my vote, if only the EU had not behaved with such flailing, malignant incompetence, in recent weeks.

    But, if the City does collapse (quick or slow), we are in deep shit. Massively in debt just as our tax base disappears. Not good. Not good at all.

    Although in the super long term - which is how Brexit must be judged to have any chance of being deemed a success - a less bloated City could be a good thing. Yes, it pays lots of tax, but it also sucks so much talent and energy and resource and focus out of other (arguably more value added) sectors and it adds enormously to regional inequalities. How many smart young Northerners, for example, who could have stayed up there and worked in high tech manufacturing or renewable energy or medical research - or a hundred other things that could flourish outside London and the South East given the steer - end up instead sitting in a trading floor in EC4 or Canary, or a room in Mayfair, dreaming up "products" to help the crooked rich launder their money and dodge tax etc etc? It's a huge number. Think of the potential wasted. It's the British disease, along with private schools.
    You emotional remainers (as distinct the reluctant, pragmatic remainers like me) really struggle to accept that Brexit is already, and always will be, judged as a success by those who voted for it. They are delighted - delighted - that we have left the EU. That`s it.
    Actually, I do know that, although I wish it were not so. It's done, we're out, thank fuck for that, what a palaver. NEXT. The only way this changes is if it's an absolute and obvious disaster that can be pinned on Brexit. I'm hoping for this and any trueblood Remainer who says they aren't is fibbing.
    Sorry not to sugar-coat this, but sickness of the mind isn't too strong a description for this sort of sentiment. Why don't you move to the EU with everyone's blessing? You deserve to live in a country that you actually desire to succeed, and your chosen country of residence deserves that from you.
    It revolves around what "succeed" means. For me leaving the EU was in and of itself a national failure. That my country did not have the quiet and mature self-confidence to remain a part of this collective European endeavour, showed instead a brittle and chippy sense of misplaced exceptionalism, chose bread and circuses over bread and butter, this disappointed me greatly. Still does.

    And that was sugarcoated. Next time I won't.
    Thanks for the sugarcoating - sadly the views contained therein are still, unmistakably, a turd.

    People don't need to live up to your bizarre, entirely arbitrary, quasi-moral expectations of them for you to wish them success. They don't need to be 'punished' for daring, for every different reason under the sun, to vote against your wishes - or my wishes, or anyone's wishes. It is risibly narcissistic to suggest otherwise.

    Just try to be happy and let others be the same ffs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    Eesh, this is the sort of reason Corbynism is popular

    https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/1359895931064262656
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,848
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is the problematic quote afaics:

    Jews were beaten in the streets, not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors … even by children,” the report said quoting the post.

    “Because history is edited, most people today don’t realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views.”

    IMV hating someone is hating someone. It doesn't really matter why.

    But on the left it is totemic that motive matters more than action. (cf the higher sentences for racist/sexuality motivated crimes in the UK vs generic crimes)
    Mens Rea has been part of criminal law for a very long time I think. The motive makes the crime in many cases, not just those involving hate.
    Yes, but I was thinking not of Mens Rea, but the fact that you have a higher sentence for beating up a black or gay person (as a hate crime) vs beating up someone because they just happen to be in the area.

    For me it's the beating up that is the crime that needs punishing, not the "why".
    So, take the Stephen Lawrence murder. For you the racist motivation adds not a jot to the weight of the crime?
    No. A black man's life is worth the same as a white man's life (or a man, or woman, of any other colour).

    A murder should be punished as such.

    Of course, the parole board, in due course, will need to consider the probability of reoffending and might come to a different view at that time.
    So consider it thus. The Stephen Lawrence murder involved 2 crimes. The first one was just that - murder. The second one was violating in the most evil way imaginable the very principle you set out here. That a black man's life is worth the same as a white man. This is the aggravating factor.

    Also ask yourself if you would view the Nazi concentration camps the same way if the 6m victims had been drawn randomly by lottery
  • Question Time guests this evening is weaker than the sort of team a Premier League club puts out for a preseason friendly at Torquay.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,848

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Have to confess, the overnight loss of all EU share trading to Amsterdam, is the first bit of Project Fear which has:

    1 Come true

    AND

    2 Given me the fear

    One kinda knew it was coming, but the speed and scale still shocks. It might even make me regret my vote, if only the EU had not behaved with such flailing, malignant incompetence, in recent weeks.

    But, if the City does collapse (quick or slow), we are in deep shit. Massively in debt just as our tax base disappears. Not good. Not good at all.

    Although in the super long term - which is how Brexit must be judged to have any chance of being deemed a success - a less bloated City could be a good thing. Yes, it pays lots of tax, but it also sucks so much talent and energy and resource and focus out of other (arguably more value added) sectors and it adds enormously to regional inequalities. How many smart young Northerners, for example, who could have stayed up there and worked in high tech manufacturing or renewable energy or medical research - or a hundred other things that could flourish outside London and the South East given the steer - end up instead sitting in a trading floor in EC4 or Canary, or a room in Mayfair, dreaming up "products" to help the crooked rich launder their money and dodge tax etc etc? It's a huge number. Think of the potential wasted. It's the British disease, along with private schools.
    You emotional remainers (as distinct the reluctant, pragmatic remainers like me) really struggle to accept that Brexit is already, and always will be, judged as a success by those who voted for it. They are delighted - delighted - that we have left the EU. That`s it.
    Actually, I do know that, although I wish it were not so. It's done, we're out, thank fuck for that, what a palaver. NEXT. The only way this changes is if it's an absolute and obvious disaster that can be pinned on Brexit. I'm hoping for this and any trueblood Remainer who says they aren't is fibbing.
    Sorry not to sugar-coat this, but sickness of the mind isn't too strong a description for this sort of sentiment. Why don't you move to the EU with everyone's blessing? You deserve to live in a country that you actually desire to succeed, and your chosen country of residence deserves that from you.
    It revolves around what "succeed" means. For me leaving the EU was in and of itself a national failure. That my country did not have the quiet and mature self-confidence to remain a part of this collective European endeavour, showed instead a brittle and chippy sense of misplaced exceptionalism, chose bread and circuses over bread and butter, this disappointed me greatly. Still does.

    And that was sugarcoated. Next time I won't.
    Thanks for the sugarcoating - sadly the views contained therein are still, unmistakably, a turd.

    People don't need to live up to your bizarre, entirely arbitrary, quasi-moral expectations of them for you to wish them success. They don't need to be 'punished' for daring, for every different reason under the sun, to vote against your wishes - or my wishes, or anyone's wishes. It is risibly narcissistic to suggest otherwise.

    Just try to be happy and let others be the same ffs.
    If I want to commune with Forrest Gump I'll seek out the film.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,848

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Have to confess, the overnight loss of all EU share trading to Amsterdam, is the first bit of Project Fear which has:

    1 Come true

    AND

    2 Given me the fear

    One kinda knew it was coming, but the speed and scale still shocks. It might even make me regret my vote, if only the EU had not behaved with such flailing, malignant incompetence, in recent weeks.

    But, if the City does collapse (quick or slow), we are in deep shit. Massively in debt just as our tax base disappears. Not good. Not good at all.

    Although in the super long term - which is how Brexit must be judged to have any chance of being deemed a success - a less bloated City could be a good thing. Yes, it pays lots of tax, but it also sucks so much talent and energy and resource and focus out of other (arguably more value added) sectors and it adds enormously to regional inequalities. How many smart young Northerners, for example, who could have stayed up there and worked in high tech manufacturing or renewable energy or medical research - or a hundred other things that could flourish outside London and the South East given the steer - end up instead sitting in a trading floor in EC4 or Canary, or a room in Mayfair, dreaming up "products" to help the crooked rich launder their money and dodge tax etc etc? It's a huge number. Think of the potential wasted. It's the British disease, along with private schools.
    You emotional remainers (as distinct the reluctant, pragmatic remainers like me) really struggle to accept that Brexit is already, and always will be, judged as a success by those who voted for it. They are delighted - delighted - that we have left the EU. That`s it.
    Actually, I do know that, although I wish it were not so. It's done, we're out, thank fuck for that, what a palaver. NEXT. The only way this changes is if it's an absolute and obvious disaster that can be pinned on Brexit. I'm hoping for this and any trueblood Remainer who says they aren't is fibbing.
    What a strange way to live a life.
    No different to Europhobes wanting the EU to struggle and ideally collapse.
    I find agnostics more strange.
    It is not the same, because reprehensible and stupid as those people are, they are not willing their own country, where they pay taxes, and bring up their families, to fail. They are merely selfish, not active self-harmers.
    First, there is no moral superiority in wishing harm on foreigners rather than Brits. Second, none of the harm done by Brexit will be caused by people who opposed it. It's outrageous to suggest this. That's victim blaming. That's gaslighting. It's just a complete and utter bunch of bananas.
    I didn't claim there was any moral superiority - I merely suggest that wanting your own country to fail falls into the 'nuts' category as opposed to just the 'git' category.

    As for your suggestion that none of the harm 'done by' Brexit will be caused by people who opposed it - patent balls. Would you (for example) given a position of influence, work overtime to ease the immediate pressures to a respective industry caused by leaving the EU, or would you rather let things be as they will be, as an object lesson on the ghastliness of Brexit? Your posts suggest the latter. And that (if the people who oppose Brexit are in positions of responsibility) IS a problem, as we've already experienced in Scotland, with officials taking 5 hours to perform checks on fish that should take half an hour.
    I was a bond trader. If I were still "at it" my MO would not be impacted by my view of Brexit. I'd be trying to screw everybody as per normal. :smile:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,848

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Have to confess, the overnight loss of all EU share trading to Amsterdam, is the first bit of Project Fear which has:

    1 Come true

    AND

    2 Given me the fear

    One kinda knew it was coming, but the speed and scale still shocks. It might even make me regret my vote, if only the EU had not behaved with such flailing, malignant incompetence, in recent weeks.

    But, if the City does collapse (quick or slow), we are in deep shit. Massively in debt just as our tax base disappears. Not good. Not good at all.

    Although in the super long term - which is how Brexit must be judged to have any chance of being deemed a success - a less bloated City could be a good thing. Yes, it pays lots of tax, but it also sucks so much talent and energy and resource and focus out of other (arguably more value added) sectors and it adds enormously to regional inequalities. How many smart young Northerners, for example, who could have stayed up there and worked in high tech manufacturing or renewable energy or medical research - or a hundred other things that could flourish outside London and the South East given the steer - end up instead sitting in a trading floor in EC4 or Canary, or a room in Mayfair, dreaming up "products" to help the crooked rich launder their money and dodge tax etc etc? It's a huge number. Think of the potential wasted. It's the British disease, along with private schools.
    You emotional remainers (as distinct the reluctant, pragmatic remainers like me) really struggle to accept that Brexit is already, and always will be, judged as a success by those who voted for it. They are delighted - delighted - that we have left the EU. That`s it.
    Actually, I do know that, although I wish it were not so. It's done, we're out, thank fuck for that, what a palaver. NEXT. The only way this changes is if it's an absolute and obvious disaster that can be pinned on Brexit. I'm hoping for this and any trueblood Remainer who says they aren't is fibbing.
    Sorry not to sugar-coat this, but sickness of the mind isn't too strong a description for this sort of sentiment. Why don't you move to the EU with everyone's blessing? You deserve to live in a country that you actually desire to succeed, and your chosen country of residence deserves that from you.
    It revolves around what "succeed" means. For me leaving the EU was in and of itself a national failure. That my country did not have the quiet and mature self-confidence to remain a part of this collective European endeavour, showed instead a brittle and chippy sense of misplaced exceptionalism, chose bread and circuses over bread and butter, this disappointed me greatly. Still does.

    And that was sugarcoated. Next time I won't.
    Please don’t sugarcoat.
    Nobody else here does.

    You and I both know that Brexit was driven by that certain jealous, curtain-twitching chippiness that encourages people to read the Daily Mail and vote to cut their own noses off.

    Basically, Brexit is a project for elderly incels who were angry that the French looked liked they had too much sex.
    :smile: - Much truth here.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,053

    FF43 said:


    Furthermore, and this is a curious thing, it is in the EU's interest to maximise Brexit loss and the UK's interest to minimise it. Yet the UK Leaver government does nothing to minimise the loss. Instead it aggravates it. The UK government is doing the EU a favour here.

    Astute point. It really is weird.
    To minimise the loss, one would have to admit there is loss.

    That is something the Brexiters are psychologically, and perhaps politically, unable to do.
    True.
    Thanks for an interesting header. Some sensible steps to restore sanity.

    I would add that restoring automatic mutual recognition of Nursing and Medical qualifications to your list. By all means add some other countries/regulatory authorities to the recognition list, as indeed some already are, such as Australia.

    The staffing exodus is otherwise going to be a major problem in tackling the massive backlogs.
This discussion has been closed.