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MRP ELECTION MODELLING: HOW USEFUL IS IT OUTSIDE OF AN ELECTION PERIOD? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,128
edited January 2021 in General
imageMRP ELECTION MODELLING: HOW USEFUL IS IT OUTSIDE OF AN ELECTION PERIOD? – politicalbetting.com

When YouGov published their multilevel regression and post-stratification (MRP) election model during the 2017 General Election campaign, it’s fair to say that it was met with a great deal of scepticism (though not from Alastair Meeks). Sure, expectations about the size of the Conservative majority had been scaled back, but a hung-parliament? Labour gain Canterbury? No chance…

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Oh was that a first?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited January 2021
    Interesting article.

    The Focal Point MRP data would make the Tories the largest party in England and Wales still in a hung Parliament but would give Labour and the SNP combined an overall majority of 30 across the UK.

    That shows how the next general election will be decided by what happens in Scotland in my view
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Interesting thread @tlg86 thank you.

    Have you any theory why the sophomore surge doesn’t appear to be happening this time around?

    Moreover, although statistics are not my long suit, but if the Tories are not soaring in these seats does it not suggest their vote is still quite efficiently spread? They’re not ridiculously below their GE share at this moment.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,826
    Thanks for the header, @tlg86!
  • England new vaccinations

    First dose 443,330
    Second dose 774

    Total 444,104

    Yesterday 425,596
    Last week 277,209

    Regional

    East 69,239
    London 41,009 ???
    Midlands 74,089
    NE & Yorks 72,897
    North West 54,135
    South East 69,876
    South West 61,153
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    ydoethur said:

    Interesting thread @tlg86 thank you.

    Have you any theory why the sophomore surge doesn’t appear to be happening this time around?

    Moreover, although statistics are not my long suit, but if the Tories are not soaring in these seats does it not suggest their vote is still quite efficiently spread? They’re not ridiculously below their GE share at this moment.

    My view is that incumbency effects won't appear until quite close to the election. I can't find it now, but I stumbled across a piece during the Ashcroft constituency polls for 2015 (maybe taken around autumn 2014) that said the Tories weren't getting any first time incumbency bonus in the 2010 gains. But at the election, they did get the benefit.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    I see Robert Peston is doing sterling work reaffirming the rightness of my decision not to bother much with TV news any more.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Very good piece @tlg86

    Quick thought. Do you think the current pandemic has anything to do with the lack of a sophomore effect? I would assume new MPs get a natural boost just because they are covered by the local media, are out and about at events etc etc. All that has gone out of the window. So, in effect, these MPs have very little of a "shop window" to get themselves personally known.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    MaxPB said:

    Should get to over 500k today, hopefully we do that on a regular basis next week for 3-3.5m doses per week. It would completely short circuit the whole 12 week cycle slowdown that people are worried about. AZ have really smashed it, with government help.
    I said something about the AZ vaccine being the real deal at the time it was first announced.

    What’s annoying is I can’t find the quote to prove it using Google and I can’t be bothered to scroll through all the old threads to find it, so you’ll just have to take my word for my awesome prescience.
  • Really excellent stuff TLG86!

    We need to remember local deals, such as the Greens stepping aside in Oxford West. If that is repeated next election, that could easily turn Con Gain in LD Hold.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    Really detailed insightful piece, thank you. I agree. Changes over time are what is significant.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    MrEd said:

    Very good piece @tlg86

    Quick thought. Do you think the current pandemic has anything to do with the lack of a sophomore effect? I would assume new MPs get a natural boost just because they are covered by the local media, are out and about at events etc etc. All that has gone out of the window. So, in effect, these MPs have very little of a "shop window" to get themselves personally known.

    That's an interesting thought, it might be having an effect. This is the first time anyone's done one of these outside an election, so we don't really have anything to go on.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. 86, I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion, in the header.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Really interesting piece, @tlg86. I'm not sure what value we can place on seat projections 3 years out from election day. A lot will change before then, we could have PM Liz by then if the party isn't happy with Boris over lockdown and the recovery.

    The economic picture will be markedly different and people's circumstances as well. I think the headline opinion polls are useful in a sense that you get an idea of where both major parties stand with voters in the popularity contest, but I don't think that translates well into seat projections, not until we're much closer to the campaign.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Really excellent stuff TLG86!

    We need to remember local deals, such as the Greens stepping aside in Oxford West. If that is repeated next election, that could easily turn Con Gain in LD Hold.

    You are assuming everyone voted for the ‘Remain Alliance’ candidate when told to.

    I’m not sure that is the case.

    Well, on a personal view I’m sure it isn’t. I was going to vote Liberal Democrat but I tore up my ballot paper when they withdrew rather than vote for the Green candidate.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    tlg86 said:

    MrEd said:

    Very good piece @tlg86

    Quick thought. Do you think the current pandemic has anything to do with the lack of a sophomore effect? I would assume new MPs get a natural boost just because they are covered by the local media, are out and about at events etc etc. All that has gone out of the window. So, in effect, these MPs have very little of a "shop window" to get themselves personally known.

    That's an interesting thought, it might be having an effect. This is the first time anyone's done one of these outside an election, so we don't really have anything to go on.
    Thanks for that. It will be interesting to see because, if it is having an effect, presumably a lot of that impact washes out by 2024 and they could end up with the boost.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    It's useful because it gives us something to talk about.

    Nice in depth look. A lack of a sophomore surge would be significant if it pans out.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    Really excellent stuff TLG86!

    We need to remember local deals, such as the Greens stepping aside in Oxford West. If that is repeated next election, that could easily turn Con Gain in LD Hold.

    Yes and the same applies to the Brexit/Reform UK Party.

    I didn't say it, but obviously the minor party shares are quite high at the moment and one wouldn't expect them to do quite so well in the election. But I was more interested in differences between seats and what stood out was how parties seem to be doing better where they were weakest in 2019.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    MaxPB said:

    Should get to over 500k today, hopefully we do that on a regular basis next week for 3-3.5m doses per week. It would completely short circuit the whole 12 week cycle slowdown that people are worried about. AZ have really smashed it, with government help.
    My son had first dose yesterday, told to expect second dose in 6 weeks
  • ydoethur said:

    Really excellent stuff TLG86!

    We need to remember local deals, such as the Greens stepping aside in Oxford West. If that is repeated next election, that could easily turn Con Gain in LD Hold.

    You are assuming everyone voted for the ‘Remain Alliance’ candidate when told to.

    I’m not sure that is the case.

    Well, on a personal view I’m sure it isn’t. I was going to vote Liberal Democrat but I tore up my ballot paper when they withdrew rather than vote for the Green candidate.
    "could" is not the same as "will".
    I've no doubt that some tactical alliances are off-putting to some people. But I find it plausible that more Green voters would break LD than Conservative, and that could be the difference in a tight seat. I'm not making any predictions at this stage, I'm just saying that local factors can work across national trends.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,458
    edited January 2021

    England new vaccinations

    First dose 443,330
    Second dose 774

    Total 444,104

    Yesterday 425,596
    Last week 277,209

    Regional

    East 69,239
    London 41,009 ???
    Midlands 74,089
    NE & Yorks 72,897
    North West 54,135
    South East 69,876
    South West 61,153

    Smashing it.....UK capacity is clearly over 500k / day now.....now lets hope supply picks up and can do 750k / day.

    Daily Mirror must be terribly disappointed.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    kle4 said:

    It's useful because it gives us something to talk about.

    Nice in depth look. A lack of a sophomore surge would be significant if it pans out.

    Yes, I was conscious when writing the piece that I don't want put anyone off doing these!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    This is likely to occupy far more of Biden’ attention for the next four years than anything on this side of the Atlantic.

    Japan official, calling Taiwan 'red line,' urges Biden to 'be strong'
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/12/25/national/politics-diplomacy/japan-taiwan-joe-biden/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    Really excellent stuff TLG86!

    We need to remember local deals, such as the Greens stepping aside in Oxford West. If that is repeated next election, that could easily turn Con Gain in LD Hold.

    You are assuming everyone voted for the ‘Remain Alliance’ candidate when told to.

    I’m not sure that is the case.

    Well, on a personal view I’m sure it isn’t. I was going to vote Liberal Democrat but I tore up my ballot paper when they withdrew rather than vote for the Green candidate.
    "could" is not the same as "will".
    I've no doubt that some tactical alliances are off-putting to some people. But I find it plausible that more Green voters would break LD than Conservative, and that could be the difference in a tight seat. I'm not making any predictions at this stage, I'm just saying that local factors can work across national trends.
    I find it plausible that they just wouldn’t vote instead.

    Just as while adding the Brexit vote to the Tory vote in red wall seats would have caused Labour the most catastrophic collapse of an opposition party since 1929, I am quite sure that a sufficient number of Brexit voters would simply have abstained instead to discount it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited January 2021

    Really excellent stuff TLG86!

    We need to remember local deals, such as the Greens stepping aside in Oxford West. If that is repeated next election, that could easily turn Con Gain in LD Hold.

    In 2015 the Tories got 45.7% in Oxford West and Abingdon and UKIP got 6.9%.

    By 2019 however the Tory vote in Oxford West had fallen to 38% and the Brexit Party got 1.4%, quite a swing away from the right against the national trend, mainly due to its high Remain vote I suspect
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    tlg86 said:

    MrEd said:

    Very good piece @tlg86

    Quick thought. Do you think the current pandemic has anything to do with the lack of a sophomore effect? I would assume new MPs get a natural boost just because they are covered by the local media, are out and about at events etc etc. All that has gone out of the window. So, in effect, these MPs have very little of a "shop window" to get themselves personally known.

    That's an interesting thought, it might be having an effect. This is the first time anyone's done one of these outside an election, so we don't really have anything to go on.
    I think there's something in that, and it's also a reason why Labour isn't getting much of a hearing. People are really only interested in the pandemic at the moment, and if we talk about anything else, or about ourselves, it feels like a tiresome distraction. Politics is frozen at the moment.

    By the way, let me add to the praise for tlg. Really interesting!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    I also think in the aftermath of Brexit and the deal the leave/remain axis is still fairly relevant. By 2024 it will hopefully be a lot less so and people will be voting based on other dividing lines that the parties will create. That is unless Starmer idiotically campaigns on joining the EEA or something like that, I could see the Tories increasing the majority in that scenario.
  • Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
  • Jesus Christ, we have a global pandemic killing millions and some journalists are concerning themselves with a photo of Boris on the phone.

    It like during the blitz of WWII worrying that the postman might not keep quite the same hours as normal.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    Jesus Christ, we have a global pandemic killing millions and some journalists are concerning themselves with a photo of Boris on the phone.

    It like during the blitz of WWII worrying that the postman might not keep quite the same hours as normal.

    It wouldn't be so bad if he just said oops I was wrong but instead he triples down.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited January 2021
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Should get to over 500k today, hopefully we do that on a regular basis next week for 3-3.5m doses per week. It would completely short circuit the whole 12 week cycle slowdown that people are worried about. AZ have really smashed it, with government help.
    I said something about the AZ vaccine being the real deal at the time it was first announced.

    What’s annoying is I can’t find the quote to prove it using Google and I can’t be bothered to scroll through all the old threads to find it, so you’ll just have to take my word for my awesome prescience.
    If you are on mobile the search function on vanilla is really quite good now. You can filter by author and date range.

    It is how I keep turning up peoples' (my own included) blown predictions.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
    Peston is pretty hopeless. Regrettable, but I don’t think that’s a national crisis.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Jesus Christ, we have a global pandemic killing millions and some journalists are concerning themselves with a photo of Boris on the phone.

    It like during the blitz of WWII worrying that the postman might not keep quite the same hours as normal.

    More like Gibbons’ caricatures of Roman Christians debating the nature of the Trinity as their empire collapsed around them.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Thanks for all the positive feedback and thanks @TheScreamingEagles for publishing. If we get any more of these it'll be pretty simple to keep an eye out for any changes to the trends.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Really excellent stuff TLG86!

    We need to remember local deals, such as the Greens stepping aside in Oxford West. If that is repeated next election, that could easily turn Con Gain in LD Hold.

    You are assuming everyone voted for the ‘Remain Alliance’ candidate when told to.

    I’m not sure that is the case.

    Well, on a personal view I’m sure it isn’t. I was going to vote Liberal Democrat but I tore up my ballot paper when they withdrew rather than vote for the Green candidate.
    "could" is not the same as "will".
    I've no doubt that some tactical alliances are off-putting to some people. But I find it plausible that more Green voters would break LD than Conservative, and that could be the difference in a tight seat. I'm not making any predictions at this stage, I'm just saying that local factors can work across national trends.
    I find it plausible that they just wouldn’t vote instead.

    Just as while adding the Brexit vote to the Tory vote in red wall seats would have caused Labour the most catastrophic collapse of an opposition party since 1929, I am quite sure that a sufficient number of Brexit voters would simply have abstained instead to discount it.
    I'm 100% certain that some people will abstain, and some people will follow the recommended tactical vote, and some people will say bugger this and do what they like. I'm also certain that it will be a net positive for the LD in this case. A Green staying at home isn't going to change the result. But a Green voting LD or Con could.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
    Peston is pretty hopeless. Regrettable, but I don’t think that’s a national crisis.
    As I said in the previous thread. It's like those QAnon rubes, they want to believe in something so much that they pause all higher brain function when something comes along that purports to prove them right. Peston is no better with this bullshit. He wants to believe that the government is doing something nefarious, so will believe absolutely anything to support that belief. It's not something that you want in the supposedly neutral political editor of a major TV channel.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
    Peston is pretty hopeless. Regrettable, but I don’t think that’s a national crisis.
    He's as good a journalist as Boris Johnson is a prime minister.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    tlg86 said:

    MrEd said:

    Very good piece @tlg86

    Quick thought. Do you think the current pandemic has anything to do with the lack of a sophomore effect? I would assume new MPs get a natural boost just because they are covered by the local media, are out and about at events etc etc. All that has gone out of the window. So, in effect, these MPs have very little of a "shop window" to get themselves personally known.

    That's an interesting thought, it might be having an effect. This is the first time anyone's done one of these outside an election, so we don't really have anything to go on.
    I think there's something in that, and it's also a reason why Labour isn't getting much of a hearing. People are really only interested in the pandemic at the moment, and if we talk about anything else, or about ourselves, it feels like a tiresome distraction. Politics is frozen at the moment.

    By the way, let me add to the praise for tlg. Really interesting!
    Agreed on both counts.
    Assuming the end of the UK pandemic this year, and globally by next (I’m an optimist), normal politics will resume. I don’t expect a vast reserve of gratitude for the government’s efforts, fair or not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Should get to over 500k today, hopefully we do that on a regular basis next week for 3-3.5m doses per week. It would completely short circuit the whole 12 week cycle slowdown that people are worried about. AZ have really smashed it, with government help.
    I said something about the AZ vaccine being the real deal at the time it was first announced.

    What’s annoying is I can’t find the quote to prove it using Google and I can’t be bothered to scroll through all the old threads to find it, so you’ll just have to take my word for my awesome prescience.
    If you are on mobile the search function on vanilla is really quite good now. You can filter by author and date range.

    It is how I keep turning up peoples' (my own included) blown predictions.
    Sir, you are officially a genius. I didn’t know about that feature.

    Here it is, in all its glory:
    If it's 90% effective on a more rigorous testing regime than the others, costs a tenth to make and can be stored in a bog-standard piece of kit without spending zillions on dry ice:

    Then screw the other vaccines, this is the real deal.

    And massive credit to AZ and Cowley Tech for making it available on a not-for-profit basis to the developing world.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3131563
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    Why is it interesting that a few journos and twatters don't like Boris and are still pissed off because an American President phoned him that they make silly claims about a photo?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Nigelb said:

    This is likely to occupy far more of Biden’ attention for the next four years than anything on this side of the Atlantic.

    Japan official, calling Taiwan 'red line,' urges Biden to 'be strong'
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/12/25/national/politics-diplomacy/japan-taiwan-joe-biden/

    This could easily kick off big time and soon. It's probably no coincidence that the Chinese conducted their most aggressive invasion of Taiwanese air space just as Biden was becoming President, which is presumably to test how much they can get away with. Whatever you think of Trump, it's unlikely the Chinese would have tried this on if he had been re-elected.
  • 500k vaccinations / day, excluding Israel, leading the world....yeah but what about that phone line in the mirror of a PR shot for Boris talking to the POTUS (which we know for a fact happened).

    I would be embarrassed if I was a serious journalist at some in my profession.

    ICYMI

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1353345730015059968
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,458
    edited January 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
    Peston is pretty hopeless. Regrettable, but I don’t think that’s a national crisis.
    As I said in the previous thread. It's like those QAnon rubes, they want to believe in something so much that they pause all higher brain function when something comes along that purports to prove them right. Peston is no better with this bullshit. He wants to believe that the government is doing something nefarious, so will believe absolutely anything to support that belief. It's not something that you want in the supposedly neutral political editor of a major TV channel.
    Prof Peston pandemic coverage has been moronic....Mr "I have spoken to experts in the chemical industry and they told me dead easy to make the required compounds, so the government are lying"....

    Here is another dickhead moment... JVT trying to explain to this tw@t he knows f##k all about f##k all.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVyNQ34kDUc
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Floater said:

    MaxPB said:

    Should get to over 500k today, hopefully we do that on a regular basis next week for 3-3.5m doses per week. It would completely short circuit the whole 12 week cycle slowdown that people are worried about. AZ have really smashed it, with government help.
    My son had first dose yesterday, told to expect second dose in 6 weeks
    That's excellent news, do you know which one he got? Anecdotally I've heard they are bringing Pfizer second jabs forwards by a few weeks but keeping AZ ones at 12 weeks for reasons of efficacy in the latter.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Max, not only supposedly neutral, but supposedly intelligent.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    The quote in the lead from the BBC ‘the project’ brought back memories.

    The Tories in my London ward were always telling me that my seat was ‘on loan’, and they’d win it back next time. During my first campaign I canvassed the house of the local Tory ward chairman (back when I was young and fearless), and she told me she couldn’t understand why I was spending so much time campaigning because she knew that we would never win her ward.

    On the way into the count in 1994, the Tory agent told me my campaigning had been a waste of time as their figures showed they had held the seat. Yet I won by over a thousand (which is a lot).

    After that count they advised me to enjoy the next four years as the seat was on loan and they’d win it back next time. Which they didn’t.

    In the council chamber each time the election approached I’d hear the same lines from the Tories, yet would be re-elected. During the coalition both Tory and Labour councillors took pleasure in predicting we’d all lose our seats in 2014, yet we did manage to hang on, just.

    The Tories never gave up their imagined ‘ownership’ of my ward despite LibDems representing it for a full twenty four years.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    I don't think you can exactly blame the Government for that. Would you also apply the same logic to the people in the US who refuse to accept the official narrative for the election results? This is a much wider problem that stems from social media allowing crackpots to share ludicrous conspiracy theories and have them spread at light speed.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Should get to over 500k today, hopefully we do that on a regular basis next week for 3-3.5m doses per week. It would completely short circuit the whole 12 week cycle slowdown that people are worried about. AZ have really smashed it, with government help.
    I said something about the AZ vaccine being the real deal at the time it was first announced.

    What’s annoying is I can’t find the quote to prove it using Google and I can’t be bothered to scroll through all the old threads to find it, so you’ll just have to take my word for my awesome prescience.
    If you are on mobile the search function on vanilla is really quite good now. You can filter by author and date range.

    It is how I keep turning up peoples' (my own included) blown predictions.
    Sir, you are officially a genius. I didn’t know about that feature.

    Here it is, in all its glory:
    If it's 90% effective on a more rigorous testing regime than the others, costs a tenth to make and can be stored in a bog-standard piece of kit without spending zillions on dry ice:

    Then screw the other vaccines, this is the real deal.

    And massive credit to AZ and Cowley Tech for making it available on a not-for-profit basis to the developing world.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3131563
    What is this "Cowley Tech"? Is it near Fenland Poly?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited January 2021
    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    So the last, best hope of the Union is...Alex Salmond. Who'd have thunk?

    The Plan Bers still seem pretty exercised, though not to the extent of producing a coherent Plan B themselves. One of them was actually tweeting what was the point of having Holyrood. The Scotpol horseshoe is almost a circle now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
    Peston is pretty hopeless. Regrettable, but I don’t think that’s a national crisis.
    As I said in the previous thread. It's like those QAnon rubes, they want to believe in something so much that they pause all higher brain function when something comes along that purports to prove them right. Peston is no better with this bullshit. He wants to believe that the government is doing something nefarious, so will believe absolutely anything to support that belief. It's not something that you want in the supposedly neutral political editor of a major TV channel.
    I’d agree - but in the scheme if things, it’s not hugely important.

    I’d massively prefer, for example, that Gavin Williamson were political editor of ITV news than Education Secretary.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    It is clever however what's the plan if the Westminster sues for an injunction and wins? Looking impotent is never good.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited January 2021
    IanB2 said:

    The quote in the lead from the BBC ‘the project’ brought back memories.

    The Tories in my London ward were always telling me that my seat was ‘on loan’, and they’d win it back next time. During my first campaign I canvassed the house of the local Tory ward chairman (back when I was young and fearless), and she told me she couldn’t understand why I was spending so much time campaigning because she knew that we would never win her ward.

    On the way into the count in 1994, the Tory agent told me my campaigning had been a waste of time as their figures showed they had held the seat. Yet I won by over a thousand (which is a lot).

    After that count they advised me to enjoy the next four years as the seat was on loan and they’d win it back next time. Which they didn’t.

    In the council chamber each time the election approached I’d hear the same lines from the Tories, yet would be re-elected. During the coalition both Tory and Labour councillors took pleasure in predicting we’d all lose our seats in 2014, yet we did manage to hang on, just.

    The Tories never gave up their imagined ‘ownership’ of my ward despite LibDems representing it for a full twenty four years.

    Quite a lot of voters vote Tory or Labour at general elections but LD at council elections and I expect that helped you as well.

    My ward in Epping for example is solidly Tory at general elections but all 3 district councillors are LD, you might not vote LD for national government but you might vote LD for their perceived ability to mend potholes, get the bins collected and oppose new housing
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Very interesting. I suppose when you gain a seat you get the chance to be the MP for the 1st time. You can start building your reputation which ought to be a net positive assuming you are diligent and skilled at PR (as you will be otherwise you wouldn't have made it that far). As time passes there will be diminishing returns from this due to (i) the general law of diminishing returns and (ii) your loss of freshness and energy. Hence the Sophomore Effect. I'd never thought about it this way before. Seems counter instinctive and I might have assumed the opposite, that's it's harder ceteris paribus to hold a seat you've just gained than one you've just clung on to. But it does make sense. Great piece anyway. Have filed away for possible smug city techie shrewdie betting use.
  • MaxPB said:

    I also think in the aftermath of Brexit and the deal the leave/remain axis is still fairly relevant. By 2024 it will hopefully be a lot less so and people will be voting based on other dividing lines that the parties will create. That is unless Starmer idiotically campaigns on joining the EEA or something like that, I could see the Tories increasing the majority in that scenario.

    I doubt it will be called Leave/Remain, but the factors that correlate with that split (old/young, tradition/woke, common sense/experts, town/city, University of Life/formal qualifications) don't seem to be going anywhere.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,358
    edited January 2021
    MrEd said:

    Very good piece @tlg86

    Quick thought. Do you think the current pandemic has anything to do with the lack of a sophomore effect? I would assume new MPs get a natural boost just because they are covered by the local media, are out and about at events etc etc. All that has gone out of the window. So, in effect, these MPs have very little of a "shop window" to get themselves perso.nally known.

    We have had no opportunity to go out and door-knock.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    But then what? The Government presumably says "we didn't agree to this but we can be arsed doing anything to stop it since it will just be used against us". Referendum takes place, Govt decides not to campaign because SNP didn't agree a plan with it, Yes wins but then what does it do? If it came back to Westminster and said "give us our independence, we won the vote", the Government could say "well, we didn't agree to it so it's not valid plus we didn't campaign so it wasn't really a proper vote". Then what does Sturgeon do - declare UDI?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The quote in the lead from the BBC ‘the project’ brought back memories.

    The Tories in my London ward were always telling me that my seat was ‘on loan’, and they’d win it back next time. During my first campaign I canvassed the house of the local Tory ward chairman (back when I was young and fearless), and she told me she couldn’t understand why I was spending so much time campaigning because she knew that we would never win her ward.

    On the way into the count in 1994, the Tory agent told me my campaigning had been a waste of time as their figures showed they had held the seat. Yet I won by over a thousand (which is a lot).

    After that count they advised me to enjoy the next four years as the seat was on loan and they’d win it back next time. Which they didn’t.

    In the council chamber each time the election approached I’d hear the same lines from the Tories, yet would be re-elected. During the coalition both Tory and Labour councillors took pleasure in predicting we’d all lose our seats in 2014, yet we did manage to hang on, just.

    The Tories never gave up their imagined ‘ownership’ of my ward despite LibDems representing it for a full twenty four years.

    Quite a lot of voters vote Tory or Labour at general elections but LD at council elections.

    My ward in Epping for example is solidly Tory at general elections but all 3 district councillors are LD
    For sure, our box samples during GEs in my ward always showed us in third place. The mistake the Tories made was to assume this would translate back into local election votes for them at the next council elections.

    Now, the area (following rewarding) is mostly represented by Labour councillors.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    IanB2 said:

    The quote in the lead from the BBC ‘the project’ brought back memories.

    The Tories in my London ward were always telling me that my seat was ‘on loan’, and they’d win it back next time. During my first campaign I canvassed the house of the local Tory ward chairman (back when I was young and fearless), and she told me she couldn’t understand why I was spending so much time campaigning because she knew that we would never win her ward.

    On the way into the count in 1994, the Tory agent told me my campaigning had been a waste of time as their figures showed they had held the seat. Yet I won by over a thousand (which is a lot).

    After that count they advised me to enjoy the next four years as the seat was on loan and they’d win it back next time. Which they didn’t.

    In the council chamber each time the election approached I’d hear the same lines from the Tories, yet would be re-elected. During the coalition both Tory and Labour councillors took pleasure in predicting we’d all lose our seats in 2014, yet we did manage to hang on, just.

    The Tories never gave up their imagined ‘ownership’ of my ward despite LibDems representing it for a full twenty four years.

    On the other hand, as far as the national picture is concerned, Tony Blair told his party as far back as 2001 that the Tories were not dead, but 'only sleeping'. And as it turns out, their vote share has increased at every single general election since he uttered those words...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited January 2021

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    It is clever however what's the plan if the Westminster sues for an injunction and wins? Looking impotent is never good.
    One man's impotence is another's 'shackled by an oppressive government intent on blocking democracy', though I wouldn't advise using the latter as an excuse for lack of..er..performance.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Very good piece @tlg86

    Quick thought. Do you think the current pandemic has anything to do with the lack of a sophomore effect? I would assume new MPs get a natural boost just because they are covered by the local media, are out and about at events etc etc. All that has gone out of the window. So, in effect, these MPs have very little of a "shop window" to get themselves perso.nally known.

    We have had no opportunity to go out and door-knock.
    No great surprise but not great for new MPs
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    When you say "illegal", what do you mean?

    Do you mean ultra vires and would be restrained via judicial review, or do you mean that it would literally be an offence?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Should get to over 500k today, hopefully we do that on a regular basis next week for 3-3.5m doses per week. It would completely short circuit the whole 12 week cycle slowdown that people are worried about. AZ have really smashed it, with government help.
    I said something about the AZ vaccine being the real deal at the time it was first announced.

    What’s annoying is I can’t find the quote to prove it using Google and I can’t be bothered to scroll through all the old threads to find it, so you’ll just have to take my word for my awesome prescience.
    If you are on mobile the search function on vanilla is really quite good now. You can filter by author and date range.

    It is how I keep turning up peoples' (my own included) blown predictions.
    Sir, you are officially a genius. I didn’t know about that feature.

    Here it is, in all its glory:
    If it's 90% effective on a more rigorous testing regime than the others, costs a tenth to make and can be stored in a bog-standard piece of kit without spending zillions on dry ice:

    Then screw the other vaccines, this is the real deal.

    And massive credit to AZ and Cowley Tech for making it available on a not-for-profit basis to the developing world.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3131563
    Hmm?
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/south-africa-paying-more-than-double-eu-price-for-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
    Peston is pretty hopeless. Regrettable, but I don’t think that’s a national crisis.
    As I said in the previous thread. It's like those QAnon rubes, they want to believe in something so much that they pause all higher brain function when something comes along that purports to prove them right. Peston is no better with this bullshit. He wants to believe that the government is doing something nefarious, so will believe absolutely anything to support that belief. It's not something that you want in the supposedly neutral political editor of a major TV channel.
    I’d agree - but in the scheme if things, it’s not hugely important.

    I’d massively prefer, for example, that Gavin Williamson were political editor of ITV news than Education Secretary.
    I don't think it's hugely important either. It does, once again, prove to me that twitter is for c****, though and there is nothing useful to be gained from its existence.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    England new vaccinations

    First dose 443,330
    Second dose 774

    Total 444,104

    Yesterday 425,596
    Last week 277,209

    Regional

    East 69,239
    London 41,009 ???
    Midlands 74,089
    NE & Yorks 72,897
    North West 54,135
    South East 69,876
    South West 61,153

    Good numbers from the East again today :smile:

    London still lagging though.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited January 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    So you're saying an 'illegal' referendum could take place? A shocking disregard for upholding the rule of law.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    When you say "illegal", what do you mean?

    Do you mean ultra vires and would be restrained via judicial review, or do you mean that it would literally be an offence?
    He means it's a crime against his self-respect as a firm Imperialist Unionist.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    How would an advisory referendum differ from an opinion poll? Why would one be legal but not the other?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    How would an advisory referendum differ from an opinion poll? Why would one be legal but not the other?
    Off topic, but I start my employment law module this coming week. I'm already enthralled by the distinction between a "worker" and "employee". ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    So you're saying an 'illegal' referendum could take place? A shocking disregard for upholding the rule of law.
    Even Madrid could not stop the illegal Catalan referendum taking place and the nationalists won it with most Unionists boycotting it.

    However once it had taken place Madrid simply ignored the result, suspended the Catalan Parliament and ordered the arrest of Catalan nationalist leaders for holding an illegal referendum without the consent of the central government
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    So you're saying an 'illegal' referendum could take place? A shocking disregard for upholding the rule of law.
    Even Madrid could not stop the illegal Catalan referendum taking place and the nationalists won it despite the Unionist boycott.

    However once it had taken place Madrid simply ignored the result, suspended the Catalan Parliament and ordered the arrest of Catalan nationalist leaders for holding an illegal referendum without the consent of the central government
    Again, can you explain what you mean by "illegal"?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
    Peston is pretty hopeless. Regrettable, but I don’t think that’s a national crisis.
    As I said in the previous thread. It's like those QAnon rubes, they want to believe in something so much that they pause all higher brain function when something comes along that purports to prove them right. Peston is no better with this bullshit. He wants to believe that the government is doing something nefarious, so will believe absolutely anything to support that belief. It's not something that you want in the supposedly neutral political editor of a major TV channel.
    I’d agree - but in the scheme if things, it’s not hugely important.

    I’d massively prefer, for example, that Gavin Williamson were political editor of ITV news than Education Secretary.
    I'm sure BBC and SKY would love that too.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456
    edited January 2021
    The Bloomberg aggregating site for vaccinations is implying a UK-wide day increase of 480k. But adding England, Scotland and Wales gives you north of 491K (Scotland 23,566). With NI, might just break the 500k
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    edited January 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Very interesting. I suppose when you gain a seat you get the chance to be the MP for the 1st time. You can start building your reputation which ought to be a net positive assuming you are diligent and skilled at PR (as you will be otherwise you wouldn't have made it that far). As time passes there will be diminishing returns from this due to (i) the general law of diminishing returns and (ii) your loss of freshness and energy. Hence the Sophomore Effect. I'd never thought about it this way before. Seems counter instinctive and I might have assumed the opposite, that's it's harder ceteris paribus to hold a seat you've just gained than one you've just clung on to. But it does make sense. Great piece anyway. Have filed away for possible smug city techie shrewdie betting use.

    That might be part of it, but I think the way it works is that incumbents get a bonus every time, it's just more noticeable the first time because you didn't have it last time as a challenger.

    It also works in reverse. Look what happened to Richard Taylor in Wyre Forest when he tried to win the seat back in 2015. Once he lost the incumbency bonus, his vote when down considerably.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyre_Forest_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

    See also Gordon Birtwistle for the Lib Dems in Burnley:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnley_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
    Peston is pretty hopeless. Regrettable, but I don’t think that’s a national crisis.
    As I said in the previous thread. It's like those QAnon rubes, they want to believe in something so much that they pause all higher brain function when something comes along that purports to prove them right. Peston is no better with this bullshit. He wants to believe that the government is doing something nefarious, so will believe absolutely anything to support that belief. It's not something that you want in the supposedly neutral political editor of a major TV channel.
    I’d agree - but in the scheme if things, it’s not hugely important.

    I’d massively prefer, for example, that Gavin Williamson were political editor of ITV news than Education Secretary.
    I don't think it's hugely important either. It does, once again, prove to me that twitter is for c****, though and there is nothing useful to be gained from its existence.
    That, I think, is simply wrong.
    It’s very useful indeed - I don’t know of any other single source of such a variety of top quality précis information -you just have to be selective in what you pay attention to.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    So you're saying an 'illegal' referendum could take place? A shocking disregard for upholding the rule of law.
    Even Madrid could not stop the illegal Catalan referendum taking place and the nationalists won it despite the Unionist boycott.

    However once it had taken place Madrid simply ignored the result, suspended the Catalan Parliament and ordered the arrest of Catalan nationalist leaders for holding an illegal referendum without the consent of the central government
    Again, can you explain what you mean by "illegal"?
    The Scotland Act 1998 reserves Union matters to the UK government so without UK government consent any such referendum would be illegal and if Sturgeon tried to implement a breakaway from the Union at that point after the referendum without UK government consent the Supreme Court of the UK would strike her down as acting outside the scope of the Act.

    If she then defied the Court Sturgeon's arrest could be ordered for contempt of court.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    How would an advisory referendum differ from an opinion poll? Why would one be legal but not the other?
    Off topic, but I start my employment law module this coming week. I'm already enthralled by the distinction between a "worker" and "employee". ;)
    I've been dealing with one case on that very issue since the start of the year. It is the most illogical thing - particulary as employment law has 3 categories "Employee"; "Worker" & "Self-Employed" whereas HMRC, in effect, has 2 - only recognising the first and the third. Insane.
  • ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Should get to over 500k today, hopefully we do that on a regular basis next week for 3-3.5m doses per week. It would completely short circuit the whole 12 week cycle slowdown that people are worried about. AZ have really smashed it, with government help.
    I said something about the AZ vaccine being the real deal at the time it was first announced.

    What’s annoying is I can’t find the quote to prove it using Google and I can’t be bothered to scroll through all the old threads to find it, so you’ll just have to take my word for my awesome prescience.
    If you are on mobile the search function on vanilla is really quite good now. You can filter by author and date range.

    It is how I keep turning up peoples' (my own included) blown predictions.
    Sir, you are officially a genius. I didn’t know about that feature.

    Here it is, in all its glory:
    If it's 90% effective on a more rigorous testing regime than the others, costs a tenth to make and can be stored in a bog-standard piece of kit without spending zillions on dry ice:

    Then screw the other vaccines, this is the real deal.

    And massive credit to AZ and Cowley Tech for making it available on a not-for-profit basis to the developing world.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3131563
    Hmm?
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/south-africa-paying-more-than-double-eu-price-for-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine
    South Africa will pay $5.25 per dose for COVID-19 vaccines from the Serum Institute of India (SII) - well above what others, including developed nations, are paying for the same shots, local newspaper Business Day reported on Thursday.

    The Business Day report cited health department Deputy Director-General Anban Pillay as saying the price was based on South Africa’s level of development and its past investment in research and development.

    “We were advised that SII has applied a tiered pricing system, and given that (South Africa) is an upper-middle-income country, their price is $5.25. The explanation we were given for why other high-income countries have a lower price is that they have invested in the (research and development), hence the discount on the price,” it quoted him as saying.

    The SII, which Business Day said did not respond to requests for comment, is one of several manufacturers licensed by AstraZeneca to make its COVID-19 vaccine. South Africa is due to procure 1.5 million of the shots from the institute.

    Other nations or blocs are paying much less. In June, for instance, Italy, Germany, the Netherlands and France negotiated a price of around $2.50 per shot for 300 million doses from AstraZeneca as part of a European deal to secure supplies of the drug.

    The SII is also set to supply 100 million doses of the vaccine to the African Union for $3 each, Reuters reported.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-safrica-vaccines/safrica-to-pay-big-premium-for-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-from-indias-sii-business-day-idUSL1N2JW0DH
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    So you're saying an 'illegal' referendum could take place? A shocking disregard for upholding the rule of law.
    Even Madrid could not stop the illegal Catalan referendum taking place and the nationalists won it despite the Unionist boycott.

    However once it had taken place Madrid simply ignored the result, suspended the Catalan Parliament and ordered the arrest of Catalan nationalist leaders for holding an illegal referendum without the consent of the central government
    Again, can you explain what you mean by "illegal"?
    The Scotland Act 1998 reserves Union matters to the UK government so without UK government consent any such referendum would be illegal and if Sturgeon tried to implement a breakaway from the Union at that point after the referendum without UK government consent the Supreme Court of the UK would strike her down as acting outside the scope of the Act.

    If she then defied the Court Sturgeon's arrest could then be ordered for contempt of court.
    "Strike her down" :D
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    I'm not sure that is a more interesting point. Some people never believed anything that came out of No. 10, but there's a difference between being wary of what they say and claim, and going internet detective over a photo, without an even slightly plausible explanation of why it would be faked.

    There's a big difference between not trusting what those we dislike tell us and assuming everything is fake or has malicious motivation. The latter would be on us, not them, no matter how untrustworthy they are.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    FPT
    ydoethur said:


    Another advantage of bilingualism in Canada is that the PM is -- de facto -- bilingual. It is an unwritten law.

    So there is an intellectual hurdle for the PM to overcome.

    It acts as a safety valve to prevent the really stupid ever becoming Canadian PM.

    Drakeford is bilingual.

    Johnson speaks a great many languages.

    Sturgeon so far as I know only speaks English.

    I’m not sure your premise is valid...

    Edit - doesn’t Paul Davies speak Welsh as his first language as well?
    I was more thinking that Canada could never get someone as grossly ignorant as Trump -- because the Canadian PM has to be bilingual.

    Johnson, Drakeford & Paul Davies all have serious flaws as politicians, but they are intellectual giants compared to an ignoramus like Tump.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    Here are Labour’s general election results over the past 42 years:
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Blair
    Blair
    Blair
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Reflecting on the SNP plan I have come to the conclusion that Sturgeon is better at politics than me:

    I had assumed that it would be the SNP suing the Westminster government to ascertain the legality of an advisory referendum. By inverting it and daring Westminster to sue the Scottish Gov after the Scottish government had been elected on an explicit platform of having a referendum utterly changes the narrative.

    Also publishing this plan completely and utterly shoots the foxes of her "wHeRE is PLaN B Nicola??!?" internal opponents.

    No, it would just be an illegal referendum Unionists boycott, as per Catalonia
    So you're saying an 'illegal' referendum could take place? A shocking disregard for upholding the rule of law.
    Even Madrid could not stop the illegal Catalan referendum taking place and the nationalists won it despite the Unionist boycott.

    However once it had taken place Madrid simply ignored the result, suspended the Catalan Parliament and ordered the arrest of Catalan nationalist leaders for holding an illegal referendum without the consent of the central government
    Again, can you explain what you mean by "illegal"?
    The Scotland Act 1998 reserves Union matters to the UK government so without UK government consent any such referendum would be illegal and if Sturgeon tried to implement a breakaway from the Union at that point after the referendum without UK government consent the Supreme Court of the UK would strike her down as acting outside the scope of the Act.

    If she then defied the Court Sturgeon's arrest could then be ordered for contempt of court.
    "Strike her down" :D
    She will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    TimT said:

    The Bloomberg aggregating site for vaccinations is implying a UK-wide day increase of 480k. But adding England, Scotland and Wales gives you north of 491K (Scotland 23,566). With NI, might just break the 500k
    NI haven't reported enough for that in about 10 days, but should be darn close.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    Here are Labour’s general election results over the past 42 years:
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Blair
    Blair
    Blair
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose

    So...Blair comeback?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,826

    Here are Labour’s general election results over the past 42 years:
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Blair
    Blair
    Blair
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose

    Where's TSE's handy graph when you need it?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I can see the same phone cable in both pictures.
    Arf,Arf, Arf, do you have a squint, vertical in one and at 45 degrees in the other, faker than a 3 bob bit
    Why the holy fuck would they add a different fake reflection to the picture? Are you completely mental?
    You think it is just because they have one of those fairground mirrors then.
    No. It's a normal mirror. You fail to understand perspective and its effect on a 2d picture of a 3d world.
    OK Professor, it must be so
    Try using Occam's razor. What possible advantage to Downing St is there in photoshopping the reflection in a photograph?
    The more interesting point is that a large number of people appear no longer believe anything that comes out of No.10, even when it’s a completely innocuous (if slightly silly) photograph.
    When that number includes the political editor of ITV News it's more of a worry than a point of interest, don't you think?
    Peston is pretty hopeless. Regrettable, but I don’t think that’s a national crisis.
    As I said in the previous thread. It's like those QAnon rubes, they want to believe in something so much that they pause all higher brain function when something comes along that purports to prove them right. Peston is no better with this bullshit. He wants to believe that the government is doing something nefarious, so will believe absolutely anything to support that belief. It's not something that you want in the supposedly neutral political editor of a major TV channel.
    Prof Peston pandemic coverage has been moronic....Mr "I have spoken to experts in the chemical industry and they told me dead easy to make the required compounds, so the government are lying"....

    Here is another dickhead moment... JVT trying to explain to this tw@t he knows f##k all about f##k all.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVyNQ34kDUc
    Thanks for posting this. Just how thick is Peston? And how did he rise to his current position?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Should get to over 500k today, hopefully we do that on a regular basis next week for 3-3.5m doses per week. It would completely short circuit the whole 12 week cycle slowdown that people are worried about. AZ have really smashed it, with government help.
    I said something about the AZ vaccine being the real deal at the time it was first announced.

    What’s annoying is I can’t find the quote to prove it using Google and I can’t be bothered to scroll through all the old threads to find it, so you’ll just have to take my word for my awesome prescience.
    If you are on mobile the search function on vanilla is really quite good now. You can filter by author and date range.

    It is how I keep turning up peoples' (my own included) blown predictions.
    Sir, you are officially a genius. I didn’t know about that feature.

    Here it is, in all its glory:
    If it's 90% effective on a more rigorous testing regime than the others, costs a tenth to make and can be stored in a bog-standard piece of kit without spending zillions on dry ice:

    Then screw the other vaccines, this is the real deal.

    And massive credit to AZ and Cowley Tech for making it available on a not-for-profit basis to the developing world.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3131563
    It was said on here the other day that the Double Boris vaccine is also very cheap, so if it is effective, cheap and a one shot to boot, then that must be a major option moving forward presumably.

    But the AZ one really does seem remarkably cheap and convenient.

    Though someone else awhile back was saying that the most effective of the vaccines like Pfizer are made with more cutting edge kit, while AZ and others are made with much more bare bones techniques?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    Full details of the ST poll have 35% of Scots backing the status quo, 18% backing devomax and 47% backing independence given the 3 options.

    So keeping the Union but with devomax would win a narrow majority again for No
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    kle4 said:

    Here are Labour’s general election results over the past 42 years:
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Blair
    Blair
    Blair
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose

    So...Blair comeback?
    Euan?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276

    kle4 said:

    Here are Labour’s general election results over the past 42 years:
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Blair
    Blair
    Blair
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose
    Lose

    So...Blair comeback?
    Euan?
    Now worth £73 million, could he afford the pay cut?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13793437/tony-blair-son-start-up-company-147million/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. T, the answer to your first question is that he doesn't understand how mirrors work. That's quite high on the thicky-o-meter.

    The answer to your second may be that God moves in mysterious ways. And has a perverse sense of humour.
This discussion has been closed.