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Lucky. Trump’s farcial self-coup failed because of little more than the happenstance of his inadequa

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think PB is rather missing the point - what's happening in Scotland could have real implications for UK politics and betting. Is there a market for Sturgeon exit? The Wings Over Scotland site has Alex Salmond's full evidence and it is explosive to say the least. I don't see how Sturgeon stays.

    Noted elsewhere, the debate is raging over which of them is telling lies, while the obvious truth would be that both of them are
    I honestly think there are two options.
    1. She goes now.
    2. She stays as 'caretaker' to 'see Covid through' but promises to make way for a new leader at some predetermined point. I don't see an option 3 where she survives. But perhaps I'm totally wrong.
    Given her evidence and that of her husband so far, she has been involved deeply and lied repeatedly. Salmond may have been a womaniser but as shown in court the stitch up was either fabricated or consensual. People may not like that but it means they don't like millions that are doing similar at work every day. Key point is she tried to have him jailed to stop him coming back into politics , failed miserably and then tried to cover up and lied to parliament etc.
    She is a goner , no UN job in Geneva for her as Boris will welch for sure.
    Do you really think it was all to stop him coming back in to politics?
    That and the woke MeTo mince , she is fanatical feminist. May have been someone else's idea but it looks very like she at least ended up going along with it. She could have stopped it all many times but chose not too, her husband was up to neck in it as well as we saw with whatsapp. Also if you know some of the other players you would know it was a group all at the top of government / civil service / SNP.
  • What an excellent piece. Fascinating read.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sean_F said:




    What chances Democrat representatives in a state legislature somewhere are captured and killed at some point in the next four years? It must be pretty scary for them knowing many Republican politicians at that level who control local law enforcement go along with the coup.

    Pretty likely. Of course, some of these nutters will go for Republicans too, who they deem traitors to the cause.

    High. The trouble is that when things like this happen some Democrats just double-down on their condemnation and vitriol against all Republicans, further inflaming tensions, and then striking at things they know the other side hold dear.

    It really does require some very brave leadership from both Republicans and Democrats (who will get extreme abuse from their own side) to solve this.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Great article from David Herdson.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I may be an idiot but it seems almost all of Salmond's submission is based on material outside the remit of the inquiry?

    And contains a mountain of speculation rather than facts.
  • Leon said:

    I think PB is rather missing the point - what's happening in Scotland could have real implications for UK politics and betting. Is there a market for Sturgeon exit? The Wings Over Scotland site has Alex Salmond's full evidence and it is explosive to say the least. I don't see how Sturgeon stays.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/hiroshima-non-amour/

    Link.
    Ooof. That is quite punchy,

    Either Sturgeon or Salmond will have to retire from politics: it is a duel a l'outrance.
    Will make a great musical.
  • Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.
    Phew, all a storm in a teacup then.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Excellent article, David. Chills the blood, doesn't it?

    I think the future of American democracy rests as much on an internal battle within the Republican Party as it does executive-led action by the new Biden administration.

    America is so partisan now each side needs to put its own house in order first before it will be able to sensibly engage again with the other.

    Yep. The Republicans need to decide what they do about the Trump fans in their midst, much as Starmer needs to work through the problems caused by the Corbyn fans in the Labour Party.

    The Democrats need to decide if spending their first two years of power going after Trump is really making the best use of their time, as opposed to taking advantage of their good position to pass legislation in line with their agenda.

    I still think the best thing to do with Trump is to ignore him, he craves publicity and denying him that oxygen will be worse for him than spending every day in a courthouse or on the news. I also think the tech companies have screwed up yesterday, they risk making a martyr of the guy.
  • Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    Given there's strong evidence that some of them were planning on hanging Mike Pence then I'm fairly certain some of them would have ensured a similar fate for Pelosi, who was sat next to Pence.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    One point to add, in favour of David's thesis, is that much of the American Right believes there has ALREADY been a coup: America has inexplicably and "illegally" been taken over by a bunch of Woke liberal anti-patriots, pushing an alien, unAmerican agenda.

    That would, morally, justify a counter-coup
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    stjohn said:

    Trump is a bully and a coward. He wanted the coup to succeed but deep down knew it was unlikely to do so and did not want to face the consequences of being caught red handed. Caught with blood on his hands.

    He behaved like a Caesar or a Mafia boss. He made it as clear as he dared, without explicitly saying so, what he wanted to happen. "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" But the coward in him and perhaps any residual humanity that still lurks within his baseless soul, stopped him going all in.

    That is his typical pattern of behaviour. Tough talk, encourage others, but attempt to stop just short of doign something legally actionable. I don't see how that works this time, but after years of legalities it'll turn out he didn't cross the line somehow.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    On a USA theme.
    I have been watching The Americans on Amazon prime.
    Really like it.
  • Nigelb said:

    Looked like a good piece but I'm afraid I gave up on the third or fourth paragraph. Too long, too wordy.

    It's not exactly War and Peace.

    I thought it was just long enough to make its argument.
    Criticisms of the articles here being too long consistently astound me. Who can be bothered to log on to a political betting site a couple of days after a coup in Washington yet finds two minutes reading something very well written and argued a bit too much? And then makes that public!
    A writer, apparently.
    I think you mean "allegedly".

    --AS
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    So unplanned that the entire Trump clan were present for a Watch Party.
    Presumably spontaneous.
  • Yorkcity said:

    On a USA theme.
    I have been watching The Americans on Amazon prime.
    Really like it.

    It's very enjoyable, the wigs and disguises crack me up though.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Leon said:

    One point to add, in favour of David's thesis, is that much of the American Right believes there has ALREADY been a coup: America has inexplicably and "illegally" been taken over by a bunch of Woke liberal anti-patriots, pushing an alien, unAmerican agenda.

    That would, morally, justify a counter-coup

    A lot of them seem surprised that the media (even the friendly bits) aren't painting them as some kind of heroes
  • Scott_xP said:
    When two Nats go to war
    A point is all that you can score
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Scott_xP said:

    That photo is never going to leave him. It's going to be in every opponent's ads whenever he runs for anything
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    Scott_xP said:

    I think PB is rather missing the point - what's happening in Scotland could have real implications for UK politics and betting. Is there a market for Sturgeon exit? The Wings Over Scotland site has Alex Salmond's full evidence and it is explosive to say the least. I don't see how Sturgeon stays.

    Noted elsewhere, the debate is raging over which of them is telling lies, while the obvious truth would be that both of them are
    I honestly think there are two options.
    1. She goes now.
    2. She stays as 'caretaker' to 'see Covid through' but promises to make way for a new leader at some predetermined point. I don't see an option 3 where she survives. But perhaps I'm totally wrong.
    How's your record so far?
    I don't make predictions very often, so Ok I suppose? At any rate, I certainly don't expect anyone to make decisions based on my feelings, hence the caveat at the end of the post.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.
    Phew, all a storm in a teacup then.
    No, I didn't say that. I was just saying I don't think she would have been killed.

    Is it possible for you to engage in any discussion on this forum without being sarcastic or obtuse ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,269
    edited January 2021
    OllyT said:

    Scott_xP said:

    That photo is never going to leave him. It's going to be in every opponent's ads whenever he runs for anything
    He is a Senator from Missouri where Trump got 57% of the vote last year, I doubt it will harm him much with the Trumpite GOP base.

    It may not appeal much to swing voters if he ever was on a national GOP ticket but that is a different matter
  • Alistair said:

    I may be an idiot but it seems almost all of Salmond's submission is based on material outside the remit of the inquiry?

    And contains a mountain of speculation rather than facts.

    There's two inquiries, from The Times

    Mr Salmond’s claims were made in a submission to James Hamilton, the independent adviser to the Scottish government who is investigating Ms Sturgeon’s conduct. The submission has been shared with a separate Holyrood inquiry into the Scottish government’s unlawful handling of complaints against the former first minister.

    This is what is intriguing me lots, has this advice been published?

    Mr Salmond said the breaches included a failure to inform the civil service in good time of her meetings with him, and allowing the Scottish government to contest a civil court case against him despite having had legal advice that it was likely to collapse.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871

    Looked like a good piece but I'm afraid I gave up on the third or fourth paragraph. Too long, too wordy.

    It's not exactly War and Peace.

    I thought it was just long enough to make its argument.
    Criticisms of the articles here being too long consistently astound me. Who can be bothered to log on to a political betting site a couple of days after a coup in Washington yet finds two minutes reading something very well written and argued a bit too much? And then makes that public!
    I'm prone to be unnecessarily verbose myself, and if people generally prefer something shorter and punchier I totally get that, but whilst things can be too padded, longform content simply affords more opportunity to lay out an argument. It's not overly repetitve, it has clear points to make, so merely being too long is not a negative it's what you do with that length that matters. I have heard.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    Alistair said:

    I may be an idiot but it seems almost all of Salmond's submission is based on material outside the remit of the inquiry?

    And contains a mountain of speculation rather than facts.

    More speculation than in your comment?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    Given there's strong evidence that some of them were planning on hanging Mike Pence then I'm fairly certain some of them would have ensured a similar fate for Pelosi, who was sat next to Pence.
    They were saying "hang Mike Pence" and "murder the media" but I think that was just rhetoric.

    When they get near real media or Republicans (like Lindsey Graham) they get very abusive and pushy/shovey but still baulk at killing them.

    Of course.. you can never be *sure*.. I'm just making my prediction.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,269
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    One point to add, in favour of David's thesis, is that much of the American Right believes there has ALREADY been a coup: America has inexplicably and "illegally" been taken over by a bunch of Woke liberal anti-patriots, pushing an alien, unAmerican agenda.

    That would, morally, justify a counter-coup

    Yes, on that basis Trump is Franco against the woke, Antifa Communists for them
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    OllyT said:

    Scott_xP said:

    That photo is never going to leave him. It's going to be in every opponent's ads whenever he runs for anything
    If Trumpism is finished (and that does remain to be seen) then so is he. As you say that image is forever associated with him.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Disagree, Hawley is young, articulate, very intelligent, Standford and Yale degrees, taught at St Paul's, a former lawyer and now probably the most telegenic figurehead for the Trumpite GOP base once Trump leaves office
    That doesn't really counter the craven opportunist point. He treated this all like a game, a theatrical performance, and ceding his time in debate kind of proves that, as if he believed his own objections still needed to be made even after the riot, he would have properly made that argument. He knew it was bogus and did it anyway.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    Scott_xP said:
    When two Nats go to war
    A point is all that you can score
    It really is war, in the sense that her rebuttal statement isn't really a rebuttal, it's a full frontal vicious attack.
  • I unfortunately think we will see (attempted) terrorist attacks in the coming months and years in the US.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    dixiedean said:

    So unplanned that the entire Trump clan were present for a Watch Party.
    Presumably spontaneous.

    @dixiedean this has been refuted on here a few times now. The scenes of the Trumps watching a monitor were earlier from the Trump rally.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    I think most of them would have done that, yes. The number who wandered around like fucking tourists in Paris taking selfies and picking up mementos sort of points to that, they saw it as a big day out.

    There might have been a mob mentality or there might not have been when it came to harming people. But outside of that it would have only taken a handful of determined folk or even just a few unhinged individuals with guns to kill several people in the chaos even if that was not part of any particular plan.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,898

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    Given there's strong evidence that some of them were planning on hanging Mike Pence then I'm fairly certain some of them would have ensured a similar fate for Pelosi, who was sat next to Pence.
    They were saying "hang Mike Pence" and "murder the media" but I think that was just rhetoric.

    When they get near real media or Republicans (like Lindsey Graham) they get very abusive and pushy/shovey but still baulk at killing them.

    Of course.. you can never be *sure*.. I'm just making my prediction.
    ... even the guy with the zip tie 'handcuffs' and tactical gear?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    Alistair said:

    I may be an idiot but it seems almost all of Salmond's submission is based on material outside the remit of the inquiry?

    And contains a mountain of speculation rather than facts.

    There's two inquiries, from The Times

    Mr Salmond’s claims were made in a submission to James Hamilton, the independent adviser to the Scottish government who is investigating Ms Sturgeon’s conduct. The submission has been shared with a separate Holyrood inquiry into the Scottish government’s unlawful handling of complaints against the former first minister.

    This is what is intriguing me lots, has this advice been published?

    Mr Salmond said the breaches included a failure to inform the civil service in good time of her meetings with him, and allowing the Scottish government to contest a civil court case against him despite having had legal advice that it was likely to collapse.
    Tricky one that. If the case doesn't go ahead, it is open to the charge of "SNP closing ranks". Easier - and potentially, politically less damaging - to let it go ahead, despite the advice - "let justice take its course."
  • Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    Given there's strong evidence that some of them were planning on hanging Mike Pence then I'm fairly certain some of them would have ensured a similar fate for Pelosi, who was sat next to Pence.
    They were saying "hang Mike Pence" and "murder the media" but I think that was just rhetoric.

    When they get near real media or Republicans (like Lindsey Graham) they get very abusive and pushy/shovey but still baulk at killing them.

    Of course.. you can never be *sure*.. I'm just making my prediction.
    I'm not sure the zip ties and IEDs they brought along were for rhetoric.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I don't think it was a serious attempt at a coup. It was a demonstration - in the military definition - and an attempt to use the mob and create a mythology for the future. I see it more as the basis for the use of violent force during the next 4 years of opposition. Think the Nazis in the 1920s.
    I dont think there was any strategy at all. Trump just makes it up as he goes along in a haze of dementia, personality disorders and drugs.
    It was just a bunch of nutjobs , most of whom would struggle to beat a carpet.
    Anyone suggesting a coup is similar or on the make.
    Don't be silly. What constitutes a coup is not a simple question, that's why there are definitions for so many different types of coup. At the urging of a political figure a mob, some violent, stormed the Capitol in order to prevent certification of the presidential election, which they succeeded in delaying, in order to provide opportunity for the inciting figure to remain in power.

    How organised it was, how shambolic it was, these will raise questions of just how much it was a 'proper' coup d'etat, but at the very least it does not make suggestion of it meeting the requirements of a coup unreasonable.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    edited January 2021

    Scott_xP said:
    When two Nats go to war
    A point is all that you can score
    I look forward to the accompanying video remake!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Much like predicting the next recession if Sturgeon does go I'm sure PB will be full of self congratulatory Scotch experts who have been predicting her resignation every year since 2016.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    edited January 2021

    Sean_F said:




    What chances Democrat representatives in a state legislature somewhere are captured and killed at some point in the next four years? It must be pretty scary for them knowing many Republican politicians at that level who control local law enforcement go along with the coup.

    Pretty likely. Of course, some of these nutters will go for Republicans too, who they deem traitors to the cause.

    High. The trouble is that when things like this happen some Democrats just double-down on their condemnation and vitriol against all Republicans, further inflaming tensions, and then striking at things they know the other side hold dear.

    It really does require some very brave leadership from both Republicans and Democrats (who will get extreme abuse from their own side) to solve this.
    I think Biden's instincts are best-placed for this. He wants to work across the aisle.

    But that requires two things from the Republicans. Firstly, they have to split from the Coup Caucus within their midst. Secondly, they have to step back from the no surrender obstructionism that has been their Congressional strategy since Gingrich.

    If they did that then I expect that Biden would prefer to deal with anti-Coup Republicans.

    Convicting Trump in the Senate is the first test. Ultimately what side is McConnell on when it comes to a Trump coup?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    Scott_xP said:
    When two Nats go to war
    A point is all that you can score
    It really is war, in the sense that her rebuttal statement isn't really a rebuttal, it's a full frontal vicious attack.
    Vote in sectarian nationalists, you get sectarian nationalism. Gosh. The answer is not to vote in the Scottish version of UKIP to run the nation.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    I hope this excellent header will not be the trigger for a load of "only the trigger" deflective deepery.

    Or indeed the cause of its close cousin - "symptom not a cause".

    But I suppose it will be. Deep saturday sigh.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I unfortunately think we will see (attempted) terrorist attacks in the coming months and years in the US.

    Far-right terrorists are currently the large source of terrorist incidents in the USA right now and have been for years.

    They just generate vastly less headlines than other sources.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    Mobs are unpredictable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    Given there's strong evidence that some of them were planning on hanging Mike Pence then I'm fairly certain some of them would have ensured a similar fate for Pelosi, who was sat next to Pence.
    They were saying "hang Mike Pence" and "murder the media" but I think that was just rhetoric.

    When they get near real media or Republicans (like Lindsey Graham) they get very abusive and pushy/shovey but still baulk at killing them.

    Of course.. you can never be *sure*.. I'm just making my prediction.
    A lot of people there probably thought they'd never participate in a violent storming of the Capitol either, but once in the moment. So the ones who were inclined to be violent in the first place, if they had got their hands on Pence, might have whipped each other up into doing it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    When two Nats go to war
    A point is all that you can score
    It really is war, in the sense that her rebuttal statement isn't really a rebuttal, it's a full frontal vicious attack.
    Vote in sectarian nationalists, you get sectarian nationalism. Gosh. The answer is not to vote in the Scottish version of UKIP to run the nation.
    Which party is free of vicious infighting?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Alistair said:

    I may be an idiot but it seems almost all of Salmond's submission is based on material outside the remit of the inquiry?

    And contains a mountain of speculation rather than facts.

    Why do you think the remit of the inquiry was limited to such a narrow point.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    edited January 2021
    OllyT said:

    Scott_xP said:

    That photo is never going to leave him. It's going to be in every opponent's ads whenever he runs for anything
    He'll probably proudly run it himself, I don't doubt for one second that he supports what that crowd did 100%, apart from a few people regrettably dying. The storming of the building seems entirely in line with his own rhetoric.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    When two Nats go to war
    A point is all that you can score
    It really is war, in the sense that her rebuttal statement isn't really a rebuttal, it's a full frontal vicious attack.
    Vote in sectarian nationalists, you get sectarian nationalism. Gosh. The answer is not to vote in the Scottish version of UKIP to run the nation.

    Loonies are out their beds
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    When two Nats go to war
    A point is all that you can score
    It really is war, in the sense that her rebuttal statement isn't really a rebuttal, it's a full frontal vicious attack.
    Vote in sectarian nationalists, you get sectarian nationalism. Gosh. The answer is not to vote in the Scottish version of UKIP to run the nation.
    Which party is free of vicious infighting?
    That's a fair point, but these things do run on a scale and some will be much worse than others.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Leon said:

    One point to add, in favour of David's thesis, is that much of the American Right believes there has ALREADY been a coup: America has inexplicably and "illegally" been taken over by a bunch of Woke liberal anti-patriots, pushing an alien, unAmerican agenda.

    That would, morally, justify a counter-coup

    Yes, this is why I think *just* condemning and prosecuting Trump (although that should be done) is an insufficient answer.

    Both sides need leadership to cool it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    dixiedean said:

    So unplanned that the entire Trump clan were present for a Watch Party.
    Presumably spontaneous.

    @dixiedean this has been refuted on here a few times now. The scenes of the Trumps watching a monitor were earlier from the Trump rally.
    Oops.
    Apologies for that. I was not aware of this.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    Given there's strong evidence that some of them were planning on hanging Mike Pence then I'm fairly certain some of them would have ensured a similar fate for Pelosi, who was sat next to Pence.
    They were saying "hang Mike Pence" and "murder the media" but I think that was just rhetoric.

    When they get near real media or Republicans (like Lindsey Graham) they get very abusive and pushy/shovey but still baulk at killing them.

    Of course.. you can never be *sure*.. I'm just making my prediction.
    I'm not sure the zip ties and IEDs they brought along were for rhetoric.
    Either that, or someone really misunderstood the term 'rhetorical device'...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    I think most of them would have done that, yes. The number who wandered around like fucking tourists in Paris taking selfies and picking up mementos sort of points to that, they saw it as a big day out.

    There might have been a mob mentality or there might not have been when it came to harming people. But outside of that it would have only taken a handful of determined folk or even just a few unhinged individuals with guns to kill several people in the chaos even if that was not part of any particular plan.
    Yes, that's true.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    Yorkcity said:

    On a USA theme.
    I have been watching The Americans on Amazon prime.
    Really like it.

    Bit slow at times, but it has a lot of compelling television.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Sean_F said:




    What chances Democrat representatives in a state legislature somewhere are captured and killed at some point in the next four years? It must be pretty scary for them knowing many Republican politicians at that level who control local law enforcement go along with the coup.

    Pretty likely. Of course, some of these nutters will go for Republicans too, who they deem traitors to the cause.

    High. The trouble is that when things like this happen some Democrats just double-down on their condemnation and vitriol against all Republicans, further inflaming tensions, and then striking at things they know the other side hold dear.

    It really does require some very brave leadership from both Republicans and Democrats (who will get extreme abuse from their own side) to solve this.
    I think Biden's instincts are best-placed for this. He wants to work across the aisle.

    But that requires two things from the Republicans. Firstly, they have to split from the Coup Caucus within their midst. Secondly, they have to step back from the no surrender obstructionism that has been their Congressional strategy since Gingrich.

    If they did that then I expect that Biden would prefer to deal with anti-Coup Republicans.

    Convicting Trump in the Senate is the first test. Ultimately what side is McConnell on when it comes to a Trump coup?
    Good suggestions.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Alistair said:

    I may be an idiot but it seems almost all of Salmond's submission is based on material outside the remit of the inquiry?

    And contains a mountain of speculation rather than facts.

    More speculation than in your comment?
    Exactly several meetings on official business all forgotten , nothing recorded , had officials there as well ,etc etc . Just speculation I am sure.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I don't think it was a serious attempt at a coup. It was a demonstration - in the military definition - and an attempt to use the mob and create a mythology for the future. I see it more as the basis for the use of violent force during the next 4 years of opposition. Think the Nazis in the 1920s.
    I dont think there was any strategy at all. Trump just makes it up as he goes along in a haze of dementia, personality disorders and drugs.
    It was just a bunch of nutjobs , most of whom would struggle to beat a carpet.
    Anyone suggesting a coup is similar or on the make.
    Don't be silly. What constitutes a coup is not a simple question, that's why there are definitions for so many different types of coup. At the urging of a political figure a mob, some violent, stormed the Capitol in order to prevent certification of the presidential election, which they succeeded in delaying, in order to provide opportunity for the inciting figure to remain in power.

    How organised it was, how shambolic it was, these will raise questions of just how much it was a 'proper' coup d'etat, but at the very least it does not make suggestion of it meeting the requirements of a coup unreasonable.
    I think the problem is this.
    It is very easy to identify a successful coup.
    A failed one is always denied by the participants.

  • There might have been a mob mentality or there might not have been when it came to harming people. But outside of that it would have only taken a handful of determined folk or even just a few unhinged individuals with guns to kill several people in the chaos even if that was not part of any particular plan.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylwMWpbv5Fk
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874

    FPT: "The SNP are less likely to enjoy their current hegemony post independence. I can even imagine a (rebranded) Scottish Conservative party being in government post independence."

    I don't buy that. If Scotland is going to be independent, then surely the expression of that is ensuring it remains something very different to what they have now - a Tory Government. The SNP will ride the wave of delivery for a decade before it all gets horribly incestuous, with a chumocracy that even the Westminster Tories would never have the neck to put in place. Some bad scandals, some jail time and a quite abrupt turning away from the SNP is my guess.

    But not to anything that looks like it might be Tories in disguise. A new Tartan-clad social democrat party would be my guess, one that appeals to both LibDems and Tories with quite a few ex-SLAB and SNPers who see a need for change climbing aboard. The interesting question will be - is it a party that will want to join the EU? But they will have the benefit of quite a few years to see how the wind is blowing on that. (Implicit in that is that I don't expect the SNP to apply to join straight away - there will be a huge debate about the pros and cons. There will be plenty who don't want to swap the choke-hold of Westminster for the choke-hold of Brussels....)

    I think posters like @malcolmg would vote for an independent Scottish centre-right party.

    Probably called the Freedom Party, or something similar (maybe with extra e's in the middle for the full Gibson).
    Kenneth or Patricia?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    Mobs are unpredictable.
    Agreed, I'm just contesting the prediction that the murder of Pence and Pelosi was inevitable had they been found.

    I'm under no illusions as to how serious and terrifying the event was, and how it could easily have been worse. It should never have happened and those involved should be prosecuted with the full force of the law.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Looked like a good piece but I'm afraid I gave up on the third or fourth paragraph. Too long, too wordy.

    It's not exactly War and Peace.

    I thought it was just long enough to make its argument.

    Nigelb said:

    Looked like a good piece but I'm afraid I gave up on the third or fourth paragraph. Too long, too wordy.

    It's not exactly War and Peace.

    I thought it was just long enough to make its argument.
    Criticisms of the articles here being too long consistently astound me. Who can be bothered to log on to a political betting site a couple of days after a coup in Washington yet finds two minutes reading something very well written and argued a bit too much? And then makes that public!
    A writer, apparently.
    But evidently not a reader.
    It is very tiresome. @Mysticrose repeatedly describes himself/herself as some brilliant writer and/or editor reducing other authors to tears, criticises those who write headers but never puts forward some of their own work to show us lesser mortals how it should be done.

    I assume that they must be a famous haiku author because even the shortest of short stories must be beyond them to read - and if they cannot read them how could they possibly write them.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    Excellent and interesting article, but, in the heat of these weird and terrifying times maybe slightly overblown about how close it all got to a coup.

    Perhaps we should take from all this that despite a fascist winning in 2016 and being C in C of USA forces and controlling the majority in the SCOTUS the fascist came nowhere close to overturning the broadly democratic process of the USA.

    Not least because, like the unsung hero of the Georgia telephone conversation with the POTUS, thousands of officials, politicians, judges as well as the police and the armed forces did their duty and did it well.

    Scandalous, shameful, hubristic, scary, murderous, Yes. All these things. But the USA is neither China nor Russia and its systems + 81,000,000 voters have some reasons for relief.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551
    edited January 2021
    The next few days are critical.

    Two scenarios:

    Nothing much happens. A minor demo perhaps at the inauguration. Trump slithers off to Florida. Eventually he is jailed for tax evasion. His supporters dissipate like the Tea Party have. "Damp squib. He let us down". He plays no role in 2024. Kamala Harris next president.

    or

    Big violent demos by Trump's lot in Washington and perhaps elsewhere. These are very forcibly put down. Many end up in jail. Trump slithers off to Florida. Eventually he is jailed for sedition. His supporters dissipate like the Tea Party have. "Shit - they weren't supposed to jail us!". He plays no role in 2024. Kamala Harris next president.

    Same ending. Trump in jail and out of politics. Republicans out of power for 8-12 years.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    This is a great header, David. Can't agree more. I have always viewed Trump as a fascist, but probably too disorganised and incompetent to present a mortal danger. A virus, if you like, but a weakened one.
    But has America been vaccinated? Will it have the antibodies when a more dangerous virus emerges? Of that I am genuinely unsure.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    On a USA theme.
    I have been watching The Americans on Amazon prime.
    Really like it.

    Bit slow at times, but it has a lot of compelling television.
    I really enjoyed The Americans

    It also contains a line spoken by Elizabeth which had me in stitches first time I heard it (watched the whole thing from beginning to end twice now)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    If I was majoring on how reliable and Trustworthy Alex Salmond's evidence is I would certainly be wishing I hadn't spent the previous twenty years banging on about him being an untrustworthy liar.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    Leon said:

    I think PB is rather missing the point - what's happening in Scotland could have real implications for UK politics and betting. Is there a market for Sturgeon exit? The Wings Over Scotland site has Alex Salmond's full evidence and it is explosive to say the least. I don't see how Sturgeon stays.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/hiroshima-non-amour/

    Link.
    Ooof. That is quite punchy,

    Either Sturgeon or Salmond will have to retire from politics: it is a duel a l'outrance.
    Plenty there for the idle Scottish fishing industry to be reeling in......
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    Well I suppose technically referendums are not required either way, but does that seem advisable? At least she clarified this

    Joanna Cherry made it clear she would not wish to "replicate the violence" that preceded the creation of the Irish Republic just over a century ago.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874

    Alistair said:

    I may be an idiot but it seems almost all of Salmond's submission is based on material outside the remit of the inquiry?

    And contains a mountain of speculation rather than facts.

    There's two inquiries, from The Times

    Mr Salmond’s claims were made in a submission to James Hamilton, the independent adviser to the Scottish government who is investigating Ms Sturgeon’s conduct. The submission has been shared with a separate Holyrood inquiry into the Scottish government’s unlawful handling of complaints against the former first minister.

    This is what is intriguing me lots, has this advice been published?

    Mr Salmond said the breaches included a failure to inform the civil service in good time of her meetings with him, and allowing the Scottish government to contest a civil court case against him despite having had legal advice that it was likely to collapse.
    Tricky one that. If the case doesn't go ahead, it is open to the charge of "SNP closing ranks". Easier - and potentially, politically less damaging - to let it go ahead, despite the advice - "let justice take its course."
    The civil servants involved will be desperate to keep their part covered up. Apart from the criminality, there are some substantial pensions to be protected.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    Joanna Cherry is dangerous. Her ridiculous rhetoric will be counterproductive for the Independent cause
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871

    Sean_F said:




    What chances Democrat representatives in a state legislature somewhere are captured and killed at some point in the next four years? It must be pretty scary for them knowing many Republican politicians at that level who control local law enforcement go along with the coup.

    Pretty likely. Of course, some of these nutters will go for Republicans too, who they deem traitors to the cause.

    High. The trouble is that when things like this happen some Democrats just double-down on their condemnation and vitriol against all Republicans, further inflaming tensions, and then striking at things they know the other side hold dear.

    It really does require some very brave leadership from both Republicans and Democrats (who will get extreme abuse from their own side) to solve this.
    I think Biden's instincts are best-placed for this. He wants to work across the aisle.

    But that requires two things from the Republicans. Firstly, they have to split from the Coup Caucus within their midst. Secondly, they have to step back from the no surrender obstructionism that has been their Congressional strategy since Gingrich.

    If they did that then I expect that Biden would prefer to deal with anti-Coup Republicans.

    Convicting Trump in the Senate is the first test. Ultimately what side is McConnell on when it comes to a Trump coup?
    His own.

    What advantage is there to him to taking things further? He's 78, if Trump comes back in 4 years he's only got a few years left in the Senate anyway and would probably retire I'd have thought.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    That sounds about of a piece with the atmosphere we've seen this week. And how could anyone ever suggest that Big Tech is creating an ever more polarising climate of ideological lunacy for the sake of advertising clicks.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    edited January 2021
    algarkirk said:

    Excellent and interesting article, but, in the heat of these weird and terrifying times maybe slightly overblown about how close it all got to a coup.

    Perhaps we should take from all this that despite a fascist winning in 2016 and being C in C of USA forces and controlling the majority in the SCOTUS the fascist came nowhere close to overturning the broadly democratic process of the USA.

    Not least because, like the unsung hero of the Georgia telephone conversation with the POTUS, thousands of officials, politicians, judges as well as the police and the armed forces did their duty and did it well.

    Scandalous, shameful, hubristic, scary, murderous, Yes. All these things. But the USA is neither China nor Russia and its systems + 81,000,000 voters have some reasons for relief.

    I think you make a fair point in general - Trump had all the advantages - but I also think stating "nowhere near" is probably underestimating things. I don't mean just the coup/insurrection bit, but the entire run up to the election period and beyond. The whole democratic system was severely stress tested in a good number of different ways and there were many, many different instances of people publicly recognising that the system was under serious threat.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    This seems to me to be heading in a dangerous direction
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    kle4 said:

    Well I suppose technically referendums are not required either way, but does that seem advisable? At least she clarified this

    Joanna Cherry made it clear she would not wish to "replicate the violence" that preceded the creation of the Irish Republic just over a century ago.
    Nice of her to make that clear. She sounds like Trump telling his supporters to calm down yesterday.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,871
    Floater said:

    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    On a USA theme.
    I have been watching The Americans on Amazon prime.
    Really like it.

    Bit slow at times, but it has a lot of compelling television.
    I really enjoyed The Americans

    It also contains a line spoken by Elizabeth which had me in stitches first time I heard it (watched the whole thing from beginning to end twice now)
    I like how on a few occasions there are massive cockups or coincidences, but of course the various figures naturally assume it is part of the diabolical plans of their opponents. Probably true to life, we tend to assume when things happen it is according to someone's plan.
  • So she thinks Scotland will get carved up into a Free State and a area that remains part of the UK?

    I call dibs on Edinburgh for the UK.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874
    Alistair said:

    If I was majoring on how reliable and Trustworthy Alex Salmond's evidence is I would certainly be wishing I hadn't spent the previous twenty years banging on about him being an untrustworthy liar.

    Having been the the company of both, I would trust Salmond with the future of Scotland. I would trust Sturgeon with the future of Sturgeon.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Alistair said:

    I may be an idiot but it seems almost all of Salmond's submission is based on material outside the remit of the inquiry?

    And contains a mountain of speculation rather than facts.

    There's two inquiries, from The Times

    Mr Salmond’s claims were made in a submission to James Hamilton, the independent adviser to the Scottish government who is investigating Ms Sturgeon’s conduct. The submission has been shared with a separate Holyrood inquiry into the Scottish government’s unlawful handling of complaints against the former first minister.

    This is what is intriguing me lots, has this advice been published?

    Mr Salmond said the breaches included a failure to inform the civil service in good time of her meetings with him, and allowing the Scottish government to contest a civil court case against him despite having had legal advice that it was likely to collapse.
    Tricky one that. If the case doesn't go ahead, it is open to the charge of "SNP closing ranks". Easier - and potentially, politically less damaging - to let it go ahead, despite the advice - "let justice take its course."
    The civil servants involved will be desperate to keep their part covered up. Apart from the criminality, there are some substantial pensions to be protected.
    Yes , sure a few of them will have been looking at the value of their pots/updating CV's.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    So she thinks Scotland will get carved up into a Free State and a area that remains part of the UK?

    I call dibs on Edinburgh for the UK.
    They can keep Glasgow
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    One of the people there in Congress was a highly decorated senior army veteran - armed and with ties used to handcuff people. He has - according to the New Yorker - been identified as Lt. Colonel. Ret. Larry Brock of Texas. Allegedly.

    It will be interesting to see the make up of those arrested and those who were at this protest.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.

    Having said that, if armed semi-professional assassins who were deadly serious (as opposed to amateurs and online trolls and weirdos) had got in it could have been very different.
    Mobs are unpredictable.
    Agreed, I'm just contesting the prediction that the murder of Pence and Pelosi was inevitable had they been found.

    I'm under no illusions as to how serious and terrifying the event was, and how it could easily have been worse. It should never have happened and those involved should be prosecuted with the full force of the law.
    I don’t think anyone has said that.
    But reading one or two comments from senators/representatives, it’s clear that not a few are realising that their lives were genuinely in danger, however uncertain the extent of that might be.

    And that their President set up the situation without much, if any concern for that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    kle4 said:

    Looked like a good piece but I'm afraid I gave up on the third or fourth paragraph. Too long, too wordy.

    It's not exactly War and Peace.

    I thought it was just long enough to make its argument.
    Criticisms of the articles here being too long consistently astound me. Who can be bothered to log on to a political betting site a couple of days after a coup in Washington yet finds two minutes reading something very well written and argued a bit too much? And then makes that public!
    I'm prone to be unnecessarily verbose myself, and if people generally prefer something shorter and punchier I totally get that, but whilst things can be too padded, longform content simply affords more opportunity to lay out an argument. It's not overly repetitve, it has clear points to make, so merely being too long is not a negative it's what you do with that length that matters. I have heard.
    Brevity - using the minimum of words to make your point - is in my most humble opinion praised and celebrated well in excess of its true value and worth. By which I mean it's rather overrated. In my view.
  • Sean_F said:

    This attempted coup was farcical, although it could have have turned out very bloodily. I'm pretty sure that people like Nancy Pelosi would have been strung up had they fallen into the hands of the rioters.

    The hallmark of a properly executed coup d'etat is that it should be almost bloodless at the point of execution, because all the pieces have already been played.

    I think the protestors would have shouted and screamed at her, spat in her face, slapped her, punched her and pushed her about - and generally been deeply deeply unpleasant - but I don't think they'd have actually killed her.
    Phew, all a storm in a teacup then.
    No, I didn't say that. I was just saying I don't think she would have been killed.

    Is it possible for you to engage in any discussion on this forum without being sarcastic or obtuse ?
    I bow to your superior insights into the minds of a mob that inadvertently beat a policeman to death with a fire extinguisher.

    Imagining the reactions of the riot/coup apologists to a BLM mob breaking into an institution of government and folk saying they wouldn't have killed a Republican politician, just shouted and screamed at them, spat in there face, slapped them, punched them and pushed them about doesn’t really help reduce my tendency to sarkiness. Besides, the whatabouters’ attempt to conflate the Capitol rioters with Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems means you’ve lost the right to be taken seriously ever again.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    kle4 said:

    Well I suppose technically referendums are not required either way, but does that seem advisable? At least she clarified this

    Joanna Cherry made it clear she would not wish to "replicate the violence" that preceded the creation of the Irish Republic just over a century ago.
    Clearly not seen @HYUFD invasion plans, and a new cohort of Black and Tans setting to work on the secessionist.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    Floater said:

    This seems to me to be heading in a dangerous direction
    It's also giving Trump cover. My Daily Mail comments bellwether has moved from total revulsion against Trump earlier in the week, to a growing proportion agreeing with his propaganda in a fury that the twitter ban is the work of the "radical left".

    I think they would do well to change the policy back to an even more strictly and periodically conditional one, despite that being a humiliation.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    dixiedean said:

    Several members of the GOP came out well when the heat was on. I name Raffensperger. Gov. Kemp. The Governor of Maryland who called out the National Guard and deployed them. The numerous Congress folk and Senators who were having none of it.
    Above all Mike Pence. Who almost single handedly saved the Republic. Who'd have imagined that?
    The problem with a coup is you need full control of your own side. Don thought he did. But didn't.
    When the curtain was drawn back there wasn't much more than a sad loser and a bunch of enablers.
    Some very sad, some extremely dangerous.

    Pence could come out of the inevitable Congressional Inquiry very well indeed. "The Man Who Saved American Democracy" might not be a bad tagline to go into the next election with.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874
    Floater said:

    So she thinks Scotland will get carved up into a Free State and a area that remains part of the UK?

    I call dibs on Edinburgh for the UK.
    They can keep Glasgow
    I would be happy to keep Glasgow.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Joanna Cherry is dangerous. Her ridiculous rhetoric will be counterproductive for the Independent cause
    If being keen on independence means you are dangerous then perhaps you are correct, however I think not , pussyfooting about asking permission from Westminster has not worked so time to do something about it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    An excellent thread, thanks David.

    The more I learn about the USA, the more I think it has a deeply flawed political system. Yes, I get that any system would creek when confronted by a nutter like Trump, but how can you have a situation whereby the security of the legislature is directly in the hands of one person? That is beyond ridiculous.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,454
    edited January 2021
    Floater said:

    This seems to me to be heading in a dangerous direction
    It is. We saw this week Google / Youtube giving TalkRadio the ban hammer for nothing like this. They were only saved I suspect because Murdoch has at the moment enough sway.

    The likes of Carlson are ridiculous partisan spinning news to fit their agenda, but then so is the likes of Rachel Maddow.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Joanna Cherry is dangerous. Her ridiculous rhetoric will be counterproductive for the Independent cause
    Cherry doesn't even believe this, she's just saying what she has to to keep the UDI mob onside.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    FPT: "The SNP are less likely to enjoy their current hegemony post independence. I can even imagine a (rebranded) Scottish Conservative party being in government post independence."

    I don't buy that. If Scotland is going to be independent, then surely the expression of that is ensuring it remains something very different to what they have now - a Tory Government. The SNP will ride the wave of delivery for a decade before it all gets horribly incestuous, with a chumocracy that even the Westminster Tories would never have the neck to put in place. Some bad scandals, some jail time and a quite abrupt turning away from the SNP is my guess.

    But not to anything that looks like it might be Tories in disguise. A new Tartan-clad social democrat party would be my guess, one that appeals to both LibDems and Tories with quite a few ex-SLAB and SNPers who see a need for change climbing aboard. The interesting question will be - is it a party that will want to join the EU? But they will have the benefit of quite a few years to see how the wind is blowing on that. (Implicit in that is that I don't expect the SNP to apply to join straight away - there will be a huge debate about the pros and cons. There will be plenty who don't want to swap the choke-hold of Westminster for the choke-hold of Brussels....)

    I think posters like @malcolmg would vote for an independent Scottish centre-right party.

    Probably called the Freedom Party, or something similar (maybe with extra e's in the middle for the full Gibson).
    I'm still reeling from getting a like from malcy - for my reading of future Scottish politics. Crazy times.....!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    malcolmg said:

    Joanna Cherry is dangerous. Her ridiculous rhetoric will be counterproductive for the Independent cause
    If being keen on independence means you are dangerous then perhaps you are correct, however I think not , pussyfooting about asking permission from Westminster has not worked so time to do something about it.
    If an SNP majority in Holyrood this summer is refused a further Sindyref, the pressure for UDI will just grow and grow.
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