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Lucky. Trump’s farcial self-coup failed because of little more than the happenstance of his inadequa

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    UK R

    From case data

    image
    image

    From hospital data

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  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    eek said:

    OllyT said:

    Floater said:

    That is fantastic, but in the queue well behind Covid health tourist Rupert Murdoch and citizen of the world Stanley Johnson.
    Strangely you didn't mention the Labour mp who queue jumped
    Who was that?
    All I can find is a debunked conspiracy theory put out by Guido and Allin -Khan apologising for suggesting Conservative MPs were queue jumping. I have no doubt Floater is on the money but I can't find it.
    Here is the story...

    Any leftover vaccine should go to doctors or nurses' reaction as city MP gets jab by joining queue

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/any-leftover-vaccine-should-go-19538943

    Did he queue jump, sort of.
    Is that the MP with a kidney transplant or something like that?
    Should that be relevant? It's still effectively insider trading.

    My 93 year old mother in law in Herefordshire hasn't had hers and won't be jumping any queues.
    My mother is 96 in a private care home where there have been positive cases, no sign of the vaccine for her or staff.

    Boris Johnson's dad has even had his second vaccination a few days ago. Don't tell me it's not who you know
    It's not who you know it's very much where you live.
    E.g., in Wales.

    As I understand it, the countries of the UK have received vaccines in proportion to their population.

    If so -- and if the countries are using all the vaccines they receive promptly -- it should not be possible for significant discrepancies to arise.

    Like Scotland 2.1 per cent, Wales 1.6 per cent of the population jabbed.

    Unless the Scottish Government is way more competent than the Welsh one. 😉
    Do you need to ask
    Is the assumption correct that vaccine is distributed by population, rather than by age? I could easily believe Wales has fewer 80-year-olds than Surrey, owing to coal-mining.
    I asked how the vaccine is being distributed because Labour in Wales are now beginning to claim their widely criticised under-performance is because Boris is giving them no vaccine.

    It sounds bollocks -- because in that case, I can't see why Scotland and N. Ireland are doing best of all. Is Boris actively favouring them ?

    Wales has a very large population of retirees along its coast -- folk who sell their 3 bedroom in St Albans and buy most of North Pembrokeshire.

    So, Wales actually has the highest median age of the 4 countries, followed by Scotland, followed by N. Ireland & then England.

    I can't find specific data on the over 80s in England versus Wales, but I think your claim is wrong.
  • UK deaths

    image
    image

    Weee, nobody died today, great times
    🙄
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    Leon said:

    The simple truth is that there is a limit to how much you can restrict the population from living normal human lives. Lockdown sends people mad. PBers seek to condemn those who go to the chippy, or populate a London street when the poster himself was also populating a London street.

    Enough already.

    Focus ON THE VACCINE ROLLOUT. It is the only game in town.

    I was out buying food for my family, with whom I have formed a childcare bubble. An essential task, I rather think.

    The only other time I go out, is to meet one friend outdoors for a socially distanced walk.

    I am following the rules. Lots aren't. It worries me.

    Tho I agree with you on the limits you can impose on human nature.
    "The only other time I go out, is to meet one friend outdoors for a socially distanced walk."

    You'd be arrested for that in Derbyshire.
    Derbyshire police really are dicks
    How upset do you reckon those two women are to be on the front page of so many papers and on all those tv news bulletins? Reality tv awaits methinks
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,773
    Foss said:

    The ONS thinks that rates of depression doubled between summer '19 and summer '20 to about 20% of the population. After another six months of winter and lockdown it's not unreasonable to assume that they might be as high as a third of the population. Some of these people will be outside, trying to live a potemkin version of thier lives, because the alternative is breaking.

    Although, it is also worth remembering that suicide rates have not risen in the developed world (indeed they seem to have shown statistically significant drops in some countries).

    Futhermore, the evidence is that depression rates were actually worse at the start of the pandemic. So your concern about it going to 30% may be unfounded.
  • isam said:

    Leon said:

    The simple truth is that there is a limit to how much you can restrict the population from living normal human lives. Lockdown sends people mad. PBers seek to condemn those who go to the chippy, or populate a London street when the poster himself was also populating a London street.

    Enough already.

    Focus ON THE VACCINE ROLLOUT. It is the only game in town.

    I was out buying food for my family, with whom I have formed a childcare bubble. An essential task, I rather think.

    The only other time I go out, is to meet one friend outdoors for a socially distanced walk.

    I am following the rules. Lots aren't. It worries me.

    Tho I agree with you on the limits you can impose on human nature.
    "The only other time I go out, is to meet one friend outdoors for a socially distanced walk."

    You'd be arrested for that in Derbyshire.
    Derbyshire police really are dicks
    How upset do you reckon those two women are to be on the front page of so many papers and on all those tv news bulletins? Reality tv awaits methinks
    well thats a different matter still does not alter my prognosis !
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    While we're on the subject of transmission, does anyone have any good data as to the difference eye protection makes to the risk of infection? We all know the virus can enter through the mucous membranes of the eye, but almost all the public debate has centred on masking the mouth and nose. Whadda we think?

    Masks are about emission rather than reception. How big are you on projectile weeping?

    There's always skiing goggles if you are that fussed.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Floater said:

    Just seen this one

    "hang Mike Pence"

    twitter.com/i/status/1346963199778828290

    This is America. I'd be more worried if they chanted "shoot Mike Pence". Hanging the VP is just a few idiots chanting. They might have invoked the guillotine or enormo-haddock. Only shooting, in the American context of widespread gun ownership, is a credible threat, and one that such a chant might easily have encouraged gullible hot-heads to enact.
    I'm not so sure about that. Hanging has a particular historical resonance with some of the Trumpites.
    Indeed but it is hardly practicable whereas any idiot with a gun, and there are a lot of them, can shoot. In a British context, most recent terrorist incidents have involved readily accessible cars and kitchen knives rather than bombs which need logistics and expertise. That's the point. Hang Mike Pence is a chant; shoot Mike Pence is a credible threat and even incitement.
    Rope, attachment point, knot. Not difficult, and there are even more ropes than there are guns. A police officer was killed by being hit by a fire extinguisher - would that have failed to be a credible threat if it had been threatened rather than actually done?
    The FBI have provided statistics for American murders. 10,000 shootings a year compared with 100 each for strangulation and asphyxiation.
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Chris said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Chris said:


    So - you reckon the risk of infection is negligible so long as you're queueing outside?

    If you're socially distanced and queuing outside, the risk of infection is likely negligible.
    The risk is likely negligible? Seems to suggest you don't know what the risk is. But still.
    I wasn't certain when I posted but here's a study into outdoor transmission :.

    https://academic.oup.com/jid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/infdis/jiaa742/6009483

    Five identified studies found that a low proportion of reported global SARS-CoV-2 infections have occurred outdoors (<10%) and the odds of indoor transmission was very high compared to outdoors {18.7 times; 95% CI 6.0, 57.9}</i> which does seem to indicate you'd have to be somewhat unlucky to catch it outdoors, distanced, wearing a mask queueing for a takeout.
    That study doesn't say what you think it does.
    It's clear that most transmission occurs indoors, but we spend most of our time indoors anyway. The paper states:

    "Fifth, in order to test the hypothesis that the risk of infection is lower outdoors, future research should collect data about time spent indoors versus outdoors. Given that 90% of time is spent indoors in high-and-middle income countries [32], then it would be expected that 90% of transmission to occur indoors, all else being equal."

    It seems likely to me that outdoor settings will see lower transmission odds than indoor ones, but I think it's dangerous so state that the risk is "negligible".
    A reasonable a priori hypothesis from what we know about airborne transmission is that standing downwind of someone, especially if that person is talking, for significant periods is hazardous. IIRC a PBer found that his father was infected with the only exposure sittring out in the garden. To my mind, sitting in a pub garden with anthing like a steady wind is not much better than being in a restaurant with an aircon draught, which is known to be a causal factor from case studies. And those are thought to have caused an uptick during Mr Sunak's twofer offer.

    Multiply those risk factors considerably for a panting and maskless runner (and hope they are more than compensated by the briefer duration).
    Rule of thumb for me: if I can smell another person's perfume or sweat, they're too close.
    That is absolutely the case in outdoor queues, so I don't go near them.
    Depends on the way the wind is behaving. But I don't like queues anyway. Only one I was willing to go near was for the flu jag (v. efficiently done in my part of Scotland BTW) and ther wind was mostly crosswind, thank goodness.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    Leon said:

    The simple truth is that there is a limit to how much you can restrict the population from living normal human lives. Lockdown sends people mad. PBers seek to condemn those who go to the chippy, or populate a London street when the poster himself was also populating a London street.

    Enough already.

    Focus ON THE VACCINE ROLLOUT. It is the only game in town.

    I was out buying food for my family, with whom I have formed a childcare bubble. An essential task, I rather think.

    The only other time I go out, is to meet one friend outdoors for a socially distanced walk.

    I am following the rules. Lots aren't. It worries me.

    Tho I agree with you on the limits you can impose on human nature.
    Sure, but many other people would also believe that they were doing essential tasks. I went mountain biking today with my son. It was far too cold. I bought him hot chocolate and myself a coffee from a pop-up takeaway. Later I went to the newsagent to buy a paper to read while I thawed out.

    Essential? Possibly, probably not. Who knows?
    It is also essential to have a little bit of "life " in peoples lives as well
    Aren't people's lives more essential than what you call "a bit of life"? Are we getting back to placing your aversion to boredom higher than other people's survival?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,773
    As an aside, while I don't agree with all of it, that was an excellent header David.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    Star Wars is full of appalling inconsistencies. They've been putting Star Destroyers on screen for 44 years, through 9 films and endless spin-offs, but have they ever destroyed one single star? Noooo......

    The stupidest thing about Star Destroyers is that they have a bridge, a la a sailing ship, in an exposed, raised, part of the superstructure, with windows so the officers can look out at battles taking place over unimaginable distances. Accordingly when a rebel fighter crashes into it the whole ship is crippled, as happened at the Battle of Endor The 2003 Battlestar Galactica reboot had it much better, putting command and control in the centre of the ship where it was much less exposed.
    One of the many reasons why the BSG reboot is my favourite sci-fi series - I like a touch of realism in my fantasy universes.
    Based purely on the trailer I saw and the source material I have high hopes for Apple’s take on Azimov’s Foundation - but I’m also prepared to be let down.
    Oh, that does look interesting. Jared Harris is in it. And an Azimov is involved in production.
    Ooh, Jared Harris is always good, even in bad things. I'm down for this.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    UK deaths

    image
    image

    Weee, nobody died today, great times
    🙄
    Do I need to explain, for the 12387946746th tine, the idea of lagged data?

    Or is it a problem with people having a slower learning curve than Robert Peston?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited January 2021

    Kneel down before 100% full fat exceptionalism (ignoring the tenuous grasp of history and interesting concept of 'inventing' electricity).

    https://twitter.com/mtgreenee/status/1347891699733983233?s=20

    She can have cell phones! I'm not giving her any of the others though, including the Wright Brothers and Benjamin Franklin, all of whose status remains up for debate.
    I'm happy for her to have them all if it makes her feel optimistic and hopeful.

    One of the things I consistently admire most Americans for is their optimism and belief that things will get better (which of course they will).

    My personal take on the current situation in the US at the moment is that the events of the Capitol are being used to crush the political opposition. Rather than see the good and the rational in others and reach for that common ground, the aim appears to be to show these people to be so deplorable that all decent folk should turn their faces away in disgust.

    The expected response to that might be to feel angry, betrayed, let down, singled out etc. However, I believe that most Americans in that situation will 'dig deep' into the optimism shown above and respond positively, with solutions that are positive and within the law. If Twitter bans you - start a new social network. If Google takes your social network offline - start a new mobile phone operating system. These things can only be positive, and create a proliferation of new media and new ideas. A lot of problems come from America, but they're also very good at finding the solutions too.
    "My personal take on the current situation in the US at the moment is that the events of the Capitol are being used to crush the political opposition."

    People who try to overthrow democracies deserve to be crushed.
    There is no common ground between democracy and autocracy. If the one exists, the other doesn't.
    The problem with 'this is being used for X' takes is that people always use the potential of overreaction as an excuse to not even react in the first place.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Floater said:

    Just seen this one

    "hang Mike Pence"

    twitter.com/i/status/1346963199778828290

    This is America. I'd be more worried if they chanted "shoot Mike Pence". Hanging the VP is just a few idiots chanting. They might have invoked the guillotine or enormo-haddock. Only shooting, in the American context of widespread gun ownership, is a credible threat, and one that such a chant might easily have encouraged gullible hot-heads to enact.
    I'm not so sure about that. Hanging has a particular historical resonance with some of the Trumpites.
    Indeed but it is hardly practicable whereas any idiot with a gun, and there are a lot of them, can shoot. In a British context, most recent terrorist incidents have involved readily accessible cars and kitchen knives rather than bombs which need logistics and expertise. That's the point. Hang Mike Pence is a chant; shoot Mike Pence is a credible threat and even incitement.
    Rope, attachment point, knot. Not difficult, and there are even more ropes than there are guns. A police officer was killed by being hit by a fire extinguisher - would that have failed to be a credible threat if it had been threatened rather than actually done?
    The FBI have provided statistics for American murders. 10,000 shootings a year compared with 100 each for strangulation and asphyxiation.
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
    Sure. And Trotsky must have been fine, because what are the odds of being murdered by an ice axe in bloody Mexico?
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    OllyT said:

    Floater said:

    That is fantastic, but in the queue well behind Covid health tourist Rupert Murdoch and citizen of the world Stanley Johnson.
    Strangely you didn't mention the Labour mp who queue jumped
    Who was that?
    All I can find is a debunked conspiracy theory put out by Guido and Allin -Khan apologising for suggesting Conservative MPs were queue jumping. I have no doubt Floater is on the money but I can't find it.
    Here is the story...

    Any leftover vaccine should go to doctors or nurses' reaction as city MP gets jab by joining queue

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/any-leftover-vaccine-should-go-19538943

    Did he queue jump, sort of.
    Is that the MP with a kidney transplant or something like that?
    Should that be relevant? It's still effectively insider trading.

    My 93 year old mother in law in Herefordshire hasn't had hers and won't be jumping any queues.
    My mother is 96 in a private care home where there have been positive cases, no sign of the vaccine for her or staff.

    Boris Johnson's dad has even had his second vaccination a few days ago. Don't tell me it's not who you know
    It's not who you know it's very much where you live.
    E.g., in Wales.

    As I understand it, the countries of the UK have received vaccines in proportion to their population.

    If so -- and if the countries are using all the vaccines they receive promptly -- it should not be possible for significant discrepancies to arise.

    Like Scotland 2.1 per cent, Wales 1.6 per cent of the population jabbed.

    Unless the Scottish Government is way more competent than the Welsh one. 😉
    Do you need to ask
    You';re always saying that 'Sturgeon' is as bad as 'Drakeford' and 'Boris' ...
    No - Drakeford is off the scale of bad
    My apologies for inadvertently taking your name in vain.
    There is a reason most of North Wales is held by conservative mps

    And at last count vaccination count.

    South and mid Wales 30,000, North Wales 4,500

    And no my 81 wife has not been vaccinated nor any word of it
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Floater said:

    Just seen this one

    "hang Mike Pence"

    twitter.com/i/status/1346963199778828290

    This is America. I'd be more worried if they chanted "shoot Mike Pence". Hanging the VP is just a few idiots chanting. They might have invoked the guillotine or enormo-haddock. Only shooting, in the American context of widespread gun ownership, is a credible threat, and one that such a chant might easily have encouraged gullible hot-heads to enact.
    I'm not so sure about that. Hanging has a particular historical resonance with some of the Trumpites.
    Indeed but it is hardly practicable whereas any idiot with a gun, and there are a lot of them, can shoot. In a British context, most recent terrorist incidents have involved readily accessible cars and kitchen knives rather than bombs which need logistics and expertise. That's the point. Hang Mike Pence is a chant; shoot Mike Pence is a credible threat and even incitement.
    Rope, attachment point, knot. Not difficult, and there are even more ropes than there are guns. A police officer was killed by being hit by a fire extinguisher - would that have failed to be a credible threat if it had been threatened rather than actually done?
    The FBI have provided statistics for American murders. 10,000 shootings a year compared with 100 each for strangulation and asphyxiation.
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
    Are we REALLY having a conversation about whether it's ok for a mob, invading the Capitol, to chant about hanging someone?

    We don't need to delve into tables of stats about relative frequencies of homicide methods to come to fairly firm conclusion on it. We really, really, don't.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    eek said:

    OllyT said:

    Floater said:

    That is fantastic, but in the queue well behind Covid health tourist Rupert Murdoch and citizen of the world Stanley Johnson.
    Strangely you didn't mention the Labour mp who queue jumped
    Who was that?
    All I can find is a debunked conspiracy theory put out by Guido and Allin -Khan apologising for suggesting Conservative MPs were queue jumping. I have no doubt Floater is on the money but I can't find it.
    Here is the story...

    Any leftover vaccine should go to doctors or nurses' reaction as city MP gets jab by joining queue

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/any-leftover-vaccine-should-go-19538943

    Did he queue jump, sort of.
    Is that the MP with a kidney transplant or something like that?
    Should that be relevant? It's still effectively insider trading.

    My 93 year old mother in law in Herefordshire hasn't had hers and won't be jumping any queues.
    My mother is 96 in a private care home where there have been positive cases, no sign of the vaccine for her or staff.

    Boris Johnson's dad has even had his second vaccination a few days ago. Don't tell me it's not who you know
    It's not who you know it's very much where you live.
    E.g., in Wales.

    As I understand it, the countries of the UK have received vaccines in proportion to their population.

    If so -- and if the countries are using all the vaccines they receive promptly -- it should not be possible for significant discrepancies to arise.

    Like Scotland 2.1 per cent, Wales 1.6 per cent of the population jabbed.

    Unless the Scottish Government is way more competent than the Welsh one. 😉
    Do you need to ask
    Is the assumption correct that vaccine is distributed by population, rather than by age? I could easily believe Wales has fewer 80-year-olds than Surrey, owing to coal-mining.
    Rubbish Lord Patton was on LBC bragging he had his at 72. You can bet all these creeps and their chums will be looked after before the plebs.
  • BBC News - Covid: Warnings 'blatantly ignored' as cars turned away
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55604382
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    DougSeal said:

    Floater said:

    Just seen this one

    "hang Mike Pence"

    twitter.com/i/status/1346963199778828290

    This is America. I'd be more worried if they chanted "shoot Mike Pence". Hanging the VP is just a few idiots chanting. They might have invoked the guillotine or enormo-haddock. Only shooting, in the American context of widespread gun ownership, is a credible threat, and one that such a chant might easily have encouraged gullible hot-heads to enact.
    Have you never heard of the long-standing American problem of lynching? I’m not sure your analysis that only shooting is a credible threat, esp given a gallows was erected by the terrorists not far away, stands up to much scrutiny.
    A lot of people have said 'F*** Donald Trump' too, but one would hope that if given the actual opportunity to do so, a calmer head would prevail.
    I don’t think it would take a calm head to dissuade one from f***ing Donald Trump. Merely a pulse and a working pair of eyes.
  • BBC News - Covid: Warnings 'blatantly ignored' as cars turned away
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55604382

    going for a walk after driving is a lot less risk than going to church .
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    OllyT said:

    Leon said:

    OllyT said:

    Leon said:

    One point to add, in favour of David's thesis, is that much of the American Right believes there has ALREADY been a coup: America has inexplicably and "illegally" been taken over by a bunch of Woke liberal anti-patriots, pushing an alien, unAmerican agenda.

    That would, morally, justify a counter-coup

    It might if it were true but unless you are of the Q-Anon persuasion it's bullshit.
    That's my point, duh. A lot of the American Right buys into the QAnon stuff, it is remarkably widespread


    "A new survey has revealed that Americans increasingly believe in conspiracy theories such as QAnon, which claims that a deep state run by satan-worshipping pedophiles has worked to undermine Donald Trump.

    "According to the NPR/Ipsos poll released on Wednesday, some 39 per cent of respondents said they agreed that the president was being undermined in this way.

    "When asked whether or not “satan-worshipping elites who run a child sex ring are trying to control our politics and media,” only 47 per cent said the statement was incorrect. "

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/qanon-conspiracies-trump-election-poll-b1780528.html
    We can see where the alt-right, the Q-Anon loonies etc have taken the American right.

    So how would you suggest going about "engaging" with people with those beliefs?
    I don't have a clue.

    It should also be noted, for balance, that a chunk of the American Left is just as bad: it has been captured by mad identity politics, insane racist Marxism like "Official BLM", proper anarchists like Antifa. Tearing down statues of Abe Lincoln in month-long riots. Not sensible.

    America is in a very dark place, as I said yesterday. The polarisation is now so intense it is hard to see a way out. Neither side wants compromise. And they all have guns.

    Eek.
    Passing over the rare flash of self awareness in the first sentence, I tuned in to the Mike Gallagher show this morning. He is the Republican shock jock who I spent time listening to during my drive around the Great Plains in 2019, largely because the only alternative on the car radio was an even more loopy religious channel. Although I have to concede he’s a radio professional and his show can easily become compelling listening.

    From yesterday’s show, his line is to condemn the violence at the Capitol unambiguously, playing the Trump ‘hostage tape’ over and over to underline the nonsense of any suggestion that Trump incited the riot, and then to major on the comparison between a range of Democrats’ comments after the BLM protests to try and establish the position that the Dems are the people who are really the ones soft on violent protest.

    This then allows him to go into full-on attack mode toward the Dems seeking impeachment on the grounds that they are seeking to make unjustifiable political capital from an event where Trump’s own hands are completely clean.

    As when I listened in 2019, it’s the adverts that I found the most shocking; the advertisers on the programme clearly know they have an audience of mugs. Fish oil tablets bigged up as an all-embracing pain cure on sale for $20 for a small pot. A religious firm selling ‘boxes of blessings’, each one supposedly prayed over before being mailed out. All manner of quack medical treatments and seemingly dodgy financial investments, and humdrum items like pillows marketed as if they were guaranteed to cure all insomnia, being pitched at people the suppliers must believe have more money than sense, even though in reality I suspect they have little of either. Products mostly endorsed by Gallagher himself as the host of the show.
    One possibility is that we are now seeing the effects of the decline in human IQ, which has been going on since the turn of the century (and possibly much longer). Stupider people (of right or left) will believe stupider things.

    I hate to be mean but I do think kids today are a bit thicker than they used to be. Nicer, but thicker

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576
    I'd say that that, such as it is, is simply a function of them not being taught how to think and being exposed to all sorts of different views in a free speech environment.

    It makes you a poorer thinker, because you've never had to do it, more receptive to and accepting of dogma and therefore "thicker".
    I don't think there's been a decline in IQ (whatever that is), nor do I think people suffer from not being exposed to different views in a free speech environment. People are just as intelligent as ever, but just not as well read.

    I put this down to a longer-term decline in what I would call proper reading. People I know, even pretty bright ones, under 30 just don't read enough proper literature - fact or fiction - or proper newspapers, for example. Attention spans are much lower, because of the pervasive effects of TV (much more choice now, so more watching) and soundbites on social media. Those who teach will, I suspect, agree that it's pretty challenging to get young people to read an extended piece of 'challenging' writing.

    It even shines though on PB, with a poster who complains that the headers are too long for s/he to digest......
    But there really has been a measurable and notable decline in IQ. It's not an opinion, it is a fact, accepted by psychometricians, just as it is accepted that IQ rose for many decades (the so-called Flynn Effect)

    You can argue that IQ is a worthless measurement, but that's a different debate.

    Some reading to improve your mind.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6674

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/13/health/falling-iq-scores-study-intl/index.html

    https://slate.com/technology/2018/09/iq-scores-going-down-research-flynn-effect.html
    It is funny, though: those very same people who refused to believe that IQs were rising between 1950 and 1995 are the same people who are now really worried by the fact that IQs are falling.

    I have a view: in womb nutrition is the key, and the decline of the basics of home cooking is the problem. Or it could be cable TV, YouTube, or the decline in smoking or vaccines or Bill Gates. Take your pick.
    IQ tests are only a very partial measure of intelligence, but one thing that is observably true is that people's attention spans have radically shortened, and more complex thought on any one topic often takes much longer. Comparing the speed of documentaries, news and feature films of the 1960s with now, for instance, particularly after the infotainment revolution of the 1980s and 1990s, produces some pretty stark results.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    ping said:
    Should all be charged with five counts of felony murder.
    I think the bloke who tazered his own balls and had a heart attack technically died of misadventure or suicide.

    Can you think of a worse way to go? In excruciating pain knowing you were suffering the most ignominious and humiliating end imaginable.
  • malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    OllyT said:

    Floater said:

    That is fantastic, but in the queue well behind Covid health tourist Rupert Murdoch and citizen of the world Stanley Johnson.
    Strangely you didn't mention the Labour mp who queue jumped
    Who was that?
    All I can find is a debunked conspiracy theory put out by Guido and Allin -Khan apologising for suggesting Conservative MPs were queue jumping. I have no doubt Floater is on the money but I can't find it.
    Here is the story...

    Any leftover vaccine should go to doctors or nurses' reaction as city MP gets jab by joining queue

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/any-leftover-vaccine-should-go-19538943

    Did he queue jump, sort of.
    Is that the MP with a kidney transplant or something like that?
    Should that be relevant? It's still effectively insider trading.

    My 93 year old mother in law in Herefordshire hasn't had hers and won't be jumping any queues.
    My mother is 96 in a private care home where there have been positive cases, no sign of the vaccine for her or staff.

    Boris Johnson's dad has even had his second vaccination a few days ago. Don't tell me it's not who you know
    It's not who you know it's very much where you live.
    E.g., in Wales.

    As I understand it, the countries of the UK have received vaccines in proportion to their population.

    If so -- and if the countries are using all the vaccines they receive promptly -- it should not be possible for significant discrepancies to arise.

    Like Scotland 2.1 per cent, Wales 1.6 per cent of the population jabbed.

    Unless the Scottish Government is way more competent than the Welsh one. 😉
    Do you need to ask
    Is the assumption correct that vaccine is distributed by population, rather than by age? I could easily believe Wales has fewer 80-year-olds than Surrey, owing to coal-mining.
    Rubbish Lord Patton was on LBC bragging he had his at 72. You can bet all these creeps and their chums will be looked after before the plebs.
    i could have bet you would have a grudge about this . Its good he has had a jab because its one more who has had it.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Floater said:

    Just seen this one

    "hang Mike Pence"

    twitter.com/i/status/1346963199778828290

    This is America. I'd be more worried if they chanted "shoot Mike Pence". Hanging the VP is just a few idiots chanting. They might have invoked the guillotine or enormo-haddock. Only shooting, in the American context of widespread gun ownership, is a credible threat, and one that such a chant might easily have encouraged gullible hot-heads to enact.
    I'm not so sure about that. Hanging has a particular historical resonance with some of the Trumpites.
    Indeed but it is hardly practicable whereas any idiot with a gun, and there are a lot of them, can shoot. In a British context, most recent terrorist incidents have involved readily accessible cars and kitchen knives rather than bombs which need logistics and expertise. That's the point. Hang Mike Pence is a chant; shoot Mike Pence is a credible threat and even incitement.
    Rope, attachment point, knot. Not difficult, and there are even more ropes than there are guns. A police officer was killed by being hit by a fire extinguisher - would that have failed to be a credible threat if it had been threatened rather than actually done?
    The FBI have provided statistics for American murders. 10,000 shootings a year compared with 100 each for strangulation and asphyxiation.
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
    Sure. And Trotsky must have been fine, because what are the odds of being murdered by an ice axe in bloody Mexico?
    Now you are being silly. One is a credible threat and incitement to murder, the other is not.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    IshmaelZ said:

    While we're on the subject of transmission, does anyone have any good data as to the difference eye protection makes to the risk of infection? We all know the virus can enter through the mucous membranes of the eye, but almost all the public debate has centred on masking the mouth and nose. Whadda we think?

    Masks are about emission rather than reception. How big are you on projectile weeping?

    There's always skiing goggles if you are that fussed.
    The masks that any sensible person wears - N95s / FFP2s and 3s - are about both. I'd have hoped for a serious answer rather than snark, but then it is you.
  • BBC News - Covid: Warnings 'blatantly ignored' as cars turned away
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55604382

    And those two ladies on Sky setting a great example by getting into their cars and driving to a beauty spot 5 miles away
  • Chris said:

    Leon said:

    The simple truth is that there is a limit to how much you can restrict the population from living normal human lives. Lockdown sends people mad. PBers seek to condemn those who go to the chippy, or populate a London street when the poster himself was also populating a London street.

    Enough already.

    Focus ON THE VACCINE ROLLOUT. It is the only game in town.

    I was out buying food for my family, with whom I have formed a childcare bubble. An essential task, I rather think.

    The only other time I go out, is to meet one friend outdoors for a socially distanced walk.

    I am following the rules. Lots aren't. It worries me.

    Tho I agree with you on the limits you can impose on human nature.
    Sure, but many other people would also believe that they were doing essential tasks. I went mountain biking today with my son. It was far too cold. I bought him hot chocolate and myself a coffee from a pop-up takeaway. Later I went to the newsagent to buy a paper to read while I thawed out.

    Essential? Possibly, probably not. Who knows?
    It is also essential to have a little bit of "life " in peoples lives as well
    Aren't people's lives more essential than what you call "a bit of life"? Are we getting back to placing your aversion to boredom higher than other people's survival?
    well its all down to risk/reward and to pretend that lockdown measures have no impact or downside is stupid and obsessive. Low risk activities need to continue
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    At the moment hospital admission rates are about one-third UK levels, but recent case rates in Ireland have been higher than in the UK.

    This implies the hospital situation in Ireland is about to take a catastrophic turn.
  • That's one of those tweets that seems very clever until you stop and think about it, and then it just seems a little rubbish.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Someone sent me this

    'Let me get this straight. The person with the nuclear code is too dangerous to have a twitter account?'
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Good that there is more video. It will make it harder for those Senators and Congressman who support the mob's intentions, of which we know there are dozens, from pretending it was only a few bad apples.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Roger said:

    Someone sent me this

    'Let me get this straight. The person with the nuclear code is too dangerous to have a twitter account?'

    Nancy has considered it

    Pelosi spoke to top military leader to ensure Trump can’t launch nuclear attack

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/08/pelosi-trump-nuclear-codes-attack-milley
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited January 2021

    BBC News - Covid: Warnings 'blatantly ignored' as cars turned away
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55604382

    going for a walk after driving is a lot less risk than going to church .
    It is not acceptable

    Even those of is who live near Snowdon are not allowed anywhere, apart from shopping for food and medical emergencies

    As far as I and many North Walians are concerned arrest them and we fully support the police impounding their cars
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    That's one of those tweets that seems very clever until you stop and think about it, and then it just seems a little rubbish.
    I know the feeling only too well from many of my posts.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,929
    edited January 2021
    kle4 said:

    Good that there is more video. It will make it harder for those Senators and Congressman who support the mob's intentions, of which we know there are dozens, from pretending it was only a few bad apples.
    No. It will make it easier for President Trump and a few in Congress and the media who incited these gullible mugs to escape justice.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2021
    Big-monopoly capitalism, in the form of big tech, has a fair responsibility, as does America's grotesque inequalities and pollution of its democratic representation by special interests.
  • THIS THREAD HAS BEEN STOPPED BY DERBYSHIRE POLICE -just cos they can
  • kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Someone sent me this

    'Let me get this straight. The person with the nuclear code is too dangerous to have a twitter account?'

    Nancy has considered it

    Pelosi spoke to top military leader to ensure Trump can’t launch nuclear attack

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/08/pelosi-trump-nuclear-codes-attack-milley
    That could easily be spun as treacherous Democrats ensuring America is defenceless for a fortnight.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    kle4 said:

    Good that there is more video. It will make it harder for those Senators and Congressman who support the mob's intentions, of which we know there are dozens, from pretending it was only a few bad apples.
    Something that people don't understand about mobs/crowds.

    In one location, you can have a well spaced group of bored people wandering around, sipping water etc.

    A hundred yards away, you can people being crushed to death, trampled, beaten.

    This has been seen, many, many times. You almost never see a big crowd, all doing the same thing.

    Except at gigs, maybe. And there you have mosh pits feet from people doing their makeup....
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,336
    edited January 2021

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    OllyT said:

    Floater said:

    That is fantastic, but in the queue well behind Covid health tourist Rupert Murdoch and citizen of the world Stanley Johnson.
    Strangely you didn't mention the Labour mp who queue jumped
    Who was that?
    All I can find is a debunked conspiracy theory put out by Guido and Allin -Khan apologising for suggesting Conservative MPs were queue jumping. I have no doubt Floater is on the money but I can't find it.
    Here is the story...

    Any leftover vaccine should go to doctors or nurses' reaction as city MP gets jab by joining queue

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/any-leftover-vaccine-should-go-19538943

    Did he queue jump, sort of.
    Is that the MP with a kidney transplant or something like that?
    Should that be relevant? It's still effectively insider trading.

    My 93 year old mother in law in Herefordshire hasn't had hers and won't be jumping any queues.
    My mother is 96 in a private care home where there have been positive cases, no sign of the vaccine for her or staff.

    Boris Johnson's dad has even had his second vaccination a few days ago. Don't tell me it's not who you know
    It's not who you know it's very much where you live.
    E.g., in Wales.

    As I understand it, the countries of the UK have received vaccines in proportion to their population.

    If so -- and if the countries are using all the vaccines they receive promptly -- it should not be possible for significant discrepancies to arise.

    Like Scotland 2.1 per cent, Wales 1.6 per cent of the population jabbed.

    Unless the Scottish Government is way more competent than the Welsh one. 😉
    Do you need to ask
    You';re always saying that 'Sturgeon' is as bad as 'Drakeford' and 'Boris' ...
    No - Drakeford is off the scale of bad
    You may think he is bad, but he has been in charge while the average rate has dropped from +685 to 500. And it is now less than England and NI.

    He may have released the early firebreak too generously, but he wasn't the only one I think.
  • kle4 said:

    Good that there is more video. It will make it harder for those Senators and Congressman who support the mob's intentions, of which we know there are dozens, from pretending it was only a few bad apples.
    That video with the officer caught in the door, and the crowd heaving forward to break through...
    utterly terrifying. I hope that scum all get locked up.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    OllyT said:

    Floater said:

    That is fantastic, but in the queue well behind Covid health tourist Rupert Murdoch and citizen of the world Stanley Johnson.
    Strangely you didn't mention the Labour mp who queue jumped
    Who was that?
    All I can find is a debunked conspiracy theory put out by Guido and Allin -Khan apologising for suggesting Conservative MPs were queue jumping. I have no doubt Floater is on the money but I can't find it.
    Here is the story...

    Any leftover vaccine should go to doctors or nurses' reaction as city MP gets jab by joining queue

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/any-leftover-vaccine-should-go-19538943

    Did he queue jump, sort of.
    Is that the MP with a kidney transplant or something like that?
    Should that be relevant? It's still effectively insider trading.

    My 93 year old mother in law in Herefordshire hasn't had hers and won't be jumping any queues.
    My mother is 96 in a private care home where there have been positive cases, no sign of the vaccine for her or staff.

    Boris Johnson's dad has even had his second vaccination a few days ago. Don't tell me it's not who you know
    It's not who you know it's very much where you live.
    E.g., in Wales.

    As I understand it, the countries of the UK have received vaccines in proportion to their population.

    If so -- and if the countries are using all the vaccines they receive promptly -- it should not be possible for significant discrepancies to arise.

    Like Scotland 2.1 per cent, Wales 1.6 per cent of the population jabbed.

    Unless the Scottish Government is way more competent than the Welsh one. 😉
    Do you need to ask
    You';re always saying that 'Sturgeon' is as bad as 'Drakeford' and 'Boris' ...
    No - Drakeford is off the scale of bad
    My apologies for inadvertently taking your name in vain.
    There is a reason most of North Wales is held by conservative mps

    And at last count vaccination count.

    South and mid Wales 30,000, North Wales 4,500

    And no my 81 wife has not been vaccinated nor any word of it
    Hmm - that's a ratio of about 7 to one (actually a bit less, but those look rounded figures anyway).

    Population ratios are about 7 to one.

    So it doesn't seem as if you need to feel hard domne by on a regional basis, or that the Tory MPs are doing any harm (though I recall a certain PBer asserrting that people who don't vote Tory should be ignored by the UK Gmt, admittedly not in this context of the vaccine).

    No consolation though for you or Mrs G - wonder if htere is a local problem with your GP?
  • NEW THREAD

  • Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    OllyT said:

    Floater said:

    That is fantastic, but in the queue well behind Covid health tourist Rupert Murdoch and citizen of the world Stanley Johnson.
    Strangely you didn't mention the Labour mp who queue jumped
    Who was that?
    All I can find is a debunked conspiracy theory put out by Guido and Allin -Khan apologising for suggesting Conservative MPs were queue jumping. I have no doubt Floater is on the money but I can't find it.
    Here is the story...

    Any leftover vaccine should go to doctors or nurses' reaction as city MP gets jab by joining queue

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/any-leftover-vaccine-should-go-19538943

    Did he queue jump, sort of.
    Is that the MP with a kidney transplant or something like that?
    Should that be relevant? It's still effectively insider trading.

    My 93 year old mother in law in Herefordshire hasn't had hers and won't be jumping any queues.
    My mother is 96 in a private care home where there have been positive cases, no sign of the vaccine for her or staff.

    Boris Johnson's dad has even had his second vaccination a few days ago. Don't tell me it's not who you know
    It's not who you know it's very much where you live.
    E.g., in Wales.

    As I understand it, the countries of the UK have received vaccines in proportion to their population.

    If so -- and if the countries are using all the vaccines they receive promptly -- it should not be possible for significant discrepancies to arise.

    Like Scotland 2.1 per cent, Wales 1.6 per cent of the population jabbed.

    Unless the Scottish Government is way more competent than the Welsh one. 😉
    Do you need to ask
    You';re always saying that 'Sturgeon' is as bad as 'Drakeford' and 'Boris' ...
    No - Drakeford is off the scale of bad
    You may think he is bad, but he has been in charge while the average rate has dropped from +685 to 500. And it is now less than England and NI.

    He may have released the early firebreak too generously, but he wasn't the only one I think.
    Seem to remember a few people here going crazy about the fact there was a firebreak at all.
    They've quickly forgotten their earlier attitude, though.
  • Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    OllyT said:

    Floater said:

    That is fantastic, but in the queue well behind Covid health tourist Rupert Murdoch and citizen of the world Stanley Johnson.
    Strangely you didn't mention the Labour mp who queue jumped
    Who was that?
    All I can find is a debunked conspiracy theory put out by Guido and Allin -Khan apologising for suggesting Conservative MPs were queue jumping. I have no doubt Floater is on the money but I can't find it.
    Here is the story...

    Any leftover vaccine should go to doctors or nurses' reaction as city MP gets jab by joining queue

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/any-leftover-vaccine-should-go-19538943

    Did he queue jump, sort of.
    Is that the MP with a kidney transplant or something like that?
    Should that be relevant? It's still effectively insider trading.

    My 93 year old mother in law in Herefordshire hasn't had hers and won't be jumping any queues.
    My mother is 96 in a private care home where there have been positive cases, no sign of the vaccine for her or staff.

    Boris Johnson's dad has even had his second vaccination a few days ago. Don't tell me it's not who you know
    It's not who you know it's very much where you live.
    E.g., in Wales.

    As I understand it, the countries of the UK have received vaccines in proportion to their population.

    If so -- and if the countries are using all the vaccines they receive promptly -- it should not be possible for significant discrepancies to arise.

    Like Scotland 2.1 per cent, Wales 1.6 per cent of the population jabbed.

    Unless the Scottish Government is way more competent than the Welsh one. 😉
    Do you need to ask
    You';re always saying that 'Sturgeon' is as bad as 'Drakeford' and 'Boris' ...
    No - Drakeford is off the scale of bad
    You may think he is bad, but he has been in charge while the average rate has dropped from +685 to 500. And it is now less than England and NI.

    He may have released the early firebreak too generously, but he wasn't the only one I think.
    You have no idea how bad Drakeford and labour have been for Wales for years

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    OllyT said:

    Floater said:

    That is fantastic, but in the queue well behind Covid health tourist Rupert Murdoch and citizen of the world Stanley Johnson.
    Strangely you didn't mention the Labour mp who queue jumped
    Who was that?
    All I can find is a debunked conspiracy theory put out by Guido and Allin -Khan apologising for suggesting Conservative MPs were queue jumping. I have no doubt Floater is on the money but I can't find it.
    Here is the story...

    Any leftover vaccine should go to doctors or nurses' reaction as city MP gets jab by joining queue

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/any-leftover-vaccine-should-go-19538943

    Did he queue jump, sort of.
    Is that the MP with a kidney transplant or something like that?
    Should that be relevant? It's still effectively insider trading.

    My 93 year old mother in law in Herefordshire hasn't had hers and won't be jumping any queues.
    My mother is 96 in a private care home where there have been positive cases, no sign of the vaccine for her or staff.

    Boris Johnson's dad has even had his second vaccination a few days ago. Don't tell me it's not who you know
    It's not who you know it's very much where you live.
    E.g., in Wales.

    As I understand it, the countries of the UK have received vaccines in proportion to their population.

    If so -- and if the countries are using all the vaccines they receive promptly -- it should not be possible for significant discrepancies to arise.

    Like Scotland 2.1 per cent, Wales 1.6 per cent of the population jabbed.

    Unless the Scottish Government is way more competent than the Welsh one. 😉
    Do you need to ask
    You';re always saying that 'Sturgeon' is as bad as 'Drakeford' and 'Boris' ...
    No - Drakeford is off the scale of bad
    You may think he is bad, but he has been in charge while the average rate has dropped from +685 to 500. And it is now less than England and NI.

    He may have released the lockdown too generously, but he wasn't the only one I think.
    I am sure you can find instants in time when any of the 4 nations are doing best, using Malmesbury's graphs. What matters is the integrated effect over the whole pandemic.

    As regards the point at issue -- the vaccination program -- Drakeford at the moment is definitely last.

    Maybe that will change, but if it doesn't and Drakeford trails in well behind Johnson, there will be an electoral price to pay for Labour & the LibDems.

    People will notice this.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    We are only a couple of pages away from "false flag" being uttered.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,749
    Carnyx said:

    FPT: "The SNP are less likely to enjoy their current hegemony post independence. I can even imagine a (rebranded) Scottish Conservative party being in government post independence."

    I don't buy that. If Scotland is going to be independent, then surely the expression of that is ensuring it remains something very different to what they have now - a Tory Government. The SNP will ride the wave of delivery for a decade before it all gets horribly incestuous, with a chumocracy that even the Westminster Tories would never have the neck to put in place. Some bad scandals, some jail time and a quite abrupt turning away from the SNP is my guess.

    But not to anything that looks like it might be Tories in disguise. A new Tartan-clad social democrat party would be my guess, one that appeals to both LibDems and Tories with quite a few ex-SLAB and SNPers who see a need for change climbing aboard. The interesting question will be - is it a party that will want to join the EU? But they will have the benefit of quite a few years to see how the wind is blowing on that. (Implicit in that is that I don't expect the SNP to apply to join straight away - there will be a huge debate about the pros and cons. There will be plenty who don't want to swap the choke-hold of Westminster for the choke-hold of Brussels....)

    I don't agree. I think the SNP will split very soon after independence.

    Also - EFTA is another option. And a credible interim one.
    A quickly achieved Norway style deal with full access to the single market and freedom of movement restored would be enough to kick the full membership can a long way down the road.
  • UK cases by specimen date

    image

    Redbridge in the top three :(
This discussion has been closed.