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Both Trump and Biden stage Georgia rallies on the eve of today’s Georgia runoffs – politicalbetting.

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    Singapore admits data from its Covid contact tracing programme can also be accessed by police, reversing earlier privacy assurances.

    Officials previously explicitly ruled out the data would be used for anything other than the virus tracking.

    But parliament was told on Monday it could also be used "for the purpose of criminal investigation".
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991
    I am not sure how important to the US this vote is, all it really will determine is whether Manchin will be the key Senate swing vote if the Democrats win both seats or Collins will be the key Senate swing vote if the Republicans hold one seat or Collins and Romney will be the key Senate swing votes if the Republicans hold both seats, all relative moderates.

    However if the GOP do hold at least 1 seat then Biden will be the first incoming President not to enter office without his party in control of both chambers of Congress since Bush 41 in 1989.

    I am also not sure if all African Americans will vote for both Democrats, I think some will vote for Warnock but not Ossoff, hence Ossoff only got 47% in November to Biden's 49% and Purdue led Ossoff despite Warnock leading the first round of the Special Election
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,178
    Floater said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Im wondering if you really can be that stupid?
    Im wondering if you missed the sarcasm...
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991

    Scott_xP said:
    This cannot be true as @HYUFD assured us that all of the 2019 intake worship Boris for winning them their seats.
    2 out of 107, for goodness sake and they probably are not even in the 48 seats the Tories gained in 2019
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021
    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    Mr Bean speaks....

    ‘The problem we have online is that an algorithm decides what we want to see, which ends up creating a simplistic, binary view of society,’ he said. ‘It becomes a case of either you’re with us or against us. And if you’re against us, you deserve to be “cancelled”.

    ‘What we have now is the digital equivalent of the medieval mob roaming the streets looking for someone to burn.

    ‘So it is scary for anyone who’s a victim of that mob and it fills me with fear about the future.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9113095/Rowan-Atkinson-blasts-social-media-blames-widening-divisions-society.html

    He's not really wrong, but the modern right shares exactly half the responsibility. That digital mob is Trumpists and ultra-Brexiters too.
    There are angry groups on all extremes of the political spectrum, but ‘cancel culture’ is very much a creature of the left. Right-wingers generally see their political opponents as misguided rather than evil.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    France is adding two categories of people aged over 50 to those who can get vaccinated immediately after fierce public criticism it's been too slow in rolling out its programme.

    It is all well and good adding categories, but you have to actually have the supply and the be doing the vaccinations.

    Also given that only 40% of the population wanted the vaccine it might well have other issues.
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,432
    Selebian said:


    The lost income from student rents may actually be less than lost income from summer schools and conferences, which will probably not fully rebound after COVID. This may end up being the more significant problem.
    --AS

    Yes, quite likely. This is an area that has changed in recent years, where academic conferences used to be charged more or less at cost by a host university, but it's now common to get private companies (sometimes university owned, sometimes not) to run the conference with much inflated costs. Nice earner for universities (an other hosts) and doesn't bother the university customers too much as the inflated costs are now factored into funding proposals. However, stop the conferences and a black hole develops that wouldn't have occurred years ago when conferences were run close to cost. Another area where commercialisation of universities has increased their incomes but now leaves them more exposed than before to events like the present.

    Of course, many are trying to run online courses/conferences at the same fee and there will be some success there. Grants normally require funds to be spent during grant duration and any unspent funds go back to the funder, so there's an incentive for people like me to pay over the odds for an online course or conference with reduced benefit rather than just give the money back for no benefit.

    Does mean academics like me are not getting our normal ell expenses paid foreign holidays... er... conferences :disappointed:
    On a more serious note, my current grant includes funding to begin/grow a collaboration with colleagues in Canada. This is depended on travel as the legal framework for accessing data is such that we can only access their data within Canada and they can only access ours within UK. We don't yet know whether we'll be able to defer the funding for travel assuming it cannot happen this year (grant ends this year) but if not then we'll need to build it into a future proposal or it won't happen. The idea is that we can share our methods in each other's data. We can share code remotely and explain methods, but it's much more effective if you can actually see the data and apply/demonstrate your methods directly, which we simple cannot legally do without travel.

    The sensible thing of course will be to extend the deadline for spending the grant money, but no idea yet whether that will be permitted.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    France is adding two categories of people aged over 50 to those who can get vaccinated immediately after fierce public criticism it's been too slow in rolling out its programme.

    It is all well and good adding categories, but you have to actually have the supply and the be doing the vaccinations.

    To be fair that's a very French "solution" to the problem, and I love it.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,938
    Yet again, we are doing something entirely inevitable entirely too late, meaning it will have to be done much longer and much harder than it would have had Johnson showed some leadership and grasped the nettle. No one should be in any doubt that we are paying for his weakness and vacillation in lives, in the bitterest economic terms, and in vital freedoms that will end up being lost for greater stretches. It’s not that Boris Johnson can’t see round corners – it’s that he can’t see two steps straight ahead of him.

    What was he waiting for? Better news? Did he think that, having informed Andrew Marr’s viewers on Sunday that things were bad and getting worse but he wasn’t going to act, some kind of cosmic miracle was going to occur?


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/05/school-boris-johnson-national-lockdown-prime-minister-mistakes
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    That would in some way imply the various governments on the British Isles are at fault for the outcomes!

    Someone may have to take responsibility!

    Outrageous!
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328

    Floater said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Im wondering if you really can be that stupid?
    Well that was unnecessary.

    It's fair to highlight that the UK is unlike New Zealand in many ways but the fact the borders are STILL open is a complete disgrace and not defendable.
    We are completely different economies. New Zealand has a just handful of regular flights linking it into the world, and at its tail end at that; on the other hand, we are at the absolute centre of a global hub and rely upon them for our global services economy.

    Jacinda Arden couldn't do what she's done if she were PM of Britain (she'd be far more like Sturgeon, who hasn't been any better remember... just careful to always be a few hours ahead of Boris each time) and Boris would look like a visionary if he were PM of NZ.

    The rest is confirmation bias.


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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,121

    I think the large amounts of conflicting guidance is more the problem..

    #backtonormalbyXmas

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1346381774797090816?s=21

    Absolutely. We've all had more than enough of appallingly incompetent guidance from the government.

    Don't wear masks, for example. Washing your hands is the main thing. Feel free to go out for exercise even if you've got symptoms. We'll pay you to eat out in restaurants. Seven days self-isolation is fine. Get back to work. Get back to school. Get back to normal. Go on foreign holidays.

    It never bloody ends.
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,432

    Dishy Rishi has resurfaced with info on business support...Trigger warning for Rog....

    https://twitter.com/hmtreasury/status/1346386745953234944?s=20

    Fake, I think - where's the Rishi Sunak branding? :wink:
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    ydoethur said:

    It appears that students are banned from returning to university in England (not sure about the other nations). I assume that tuition fees will continue at the same rate despite the downgrading of the product. What about accommodation?

    I had a suspicion the reason students were dispatched off to imprisonment in university accommodation was to lift from them which the government would otherwise had to cover. This term they cannot return but will already be at least contracted for if not paid up for their accommodation. Will these be waived/refunded and the government covering the gap? Waived/refunded and not covering the gap? Or nothing at all?

    As with hospitality and entertainment there is a real risk that the sector won't be there to be picked back up when all this is over. Universities are already low on cash, and private sector landlords need rental income or the properties get sold.

    Your suspicion was correct. Which is why it would have made much more sense to pay universities to sit tight for six months and start the new year in January. Or as it now turns out, March.

    What will probably happen - and it has been happening at least to some extent already - is that a lot of universities will merge. That might be a good thing, or not, depending on how it is done. If it is done by closing surplus campuses and shedding some of the rather extensive administrative staff that many have accumulated, it might be quite beneficial. For example, there is little sense in a city the size of Swansea having two smallish universities, or for Gloucestershire to have two agricultural colleges. If however, as these things usually go, the administrators survive and the academic departments are culled instead, we're going to have a pretty broken system of mediocre unis underpinned by vast subsidies going forward.

    Anyway, if you will excuse me, I have a series of crisis meetings to attend. Have a good morning.
    "But where would we have got the money from?" I can hear the PB parrots squawk. What, like the gazillions burned on a test and trace programme that doesn't work or hundreds of millions handed out to their friends for non-existent PPE?

    Money can always be found to line the pockets of Tory friends and donors. Money can never be found to feed hungry children or save hospitality and entertainment or keep the self-employed afloat.
    That is very unfair. This government has repeatedly shown it is quite willing to feed hungry children as long as they are willing to wait for the press crescendo to reach the highest volume, govt ministers frantically and desperately appearing on tv and radio defending not feeding them, before the inevitable and universally foreseen u-turn.
    It doesn't seem to be doing them much harm, so why change?
    Very true.

    https://twitter.com/roreiy/status/1346262701379645442?s=21
    SKS still Labour leader then.....
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Chris said:

    I think the large amounts of conflicting guidance is more the problem..

    #backtonormalbyXmas

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1346381774797090816?s=21

    Absolutely. We've all had more than enough of appallingly incompetent guidance from the government.

    Don't wear masks, for example. Washing your hands is the main thing. Feel free to go out for exercise even if you've got symptoms. We'll pay you to eat out in restaurants. Seven days self-isolation is fine. Get back to work. Get back to school. Get back to normal. Go on foreign holidays.

    It never bloody ends.
    They've never been ahead of it, and never looked in control.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    edited January 2021

    Floater said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Im wondering if you really can be that stupid?
    Well that was unnecessary.

    It's fair to highlight that the UK is unlike New Zealand in many ways but the fact the borders are STILL open is a complete disgrace and not defendable.
    We are completely different economies. New Zealand has a just handful of regular flights linking it into the world, and at its tail end at that; on the other hand, we are at the absolute centre of a global hub and rely upon them for our global services economy.

    Jacinda Arden couldn't do what she's done if she were PM of Britain (she'd be far more like Sturgeon, who hasn't been any better remember... just careful to always be a few hours ahead of Boris each time) and Boris would look like a visionary if he were PM of NZ.

    The rest is confirmation bias.

    [snip]

    Yes, that's what I said.

    It's still not defendable that our borders are STILL open with no enforceable quarantine requirement and/or negative test. Hopefully that's going to at least change in the next week or so.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Mr Bean speaks....

    ‘The problem we have online is that an algorithm decides what we want to see, which ends up creating a simplistic, binary view of society,’ he said. ‘It becomes a case of either you’re with us or against us. And if you’re against us, you deserve to be “cancelled”.

    ‘What we have now is the digital equivalent of the medieval mob roaming the streets looking for someone to burn.

    ‘So it is scary for anyone who’s a victim of that mob and it fills me with fear about the future.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9113095/Rowan-Atkinson-blasts-social-media-blames-widening-divisions-society.html

    He's not really wrong, but the modern right shares exactly half the responsibility. That digital mob is Trumpists and ultra-Brexiters too.
    There are angry groups on all extremes of the political spectrum, but ‘cancel culture’ is very much a creature of the left. Right-wingers generally see their political opponents as misguided rather than evil.
    I can't agree there at all. Starting from a metropolitan base, Twitter has become as infested with radical reactionaries hounding "traitors" , "globalists" and "wokeists" as left-wing cancellers hounding what they perceive to be every type of oppressor from every strata of society. The phenomenon of radical, excluding polarisation is the same right across the board, and the reasons go back decades.
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    Mr Bean speaks....

    ‘The problem we have online is that an algorithm decides what we want to see, which ends up creating a simplistic, binary view of society,’ he said. ‘It becomes a case of either you’re with us or against us. And if you’re against us, you deserve to be “cancelled”.

    ‘What we have now is the digital equivalent of the medieval mob roaming the streets looking for someone to burn.

    ‘So it is scary for anyone who’s a victim of that mob and it fills me with fear about the future.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9113095/Rowan-Atkinson-blasts-social-media-blames-widening-divisions-society.html

    It's important to highlight that this is not just an issue surrounding left-wing "wokeistas". The right also exist in their own bubbles on Twitter and other social media platforms. Likewise, anti-vaxxers and covid deniers also exist in their own bubbles online. That's the issue with social media generally.

    One of the reasons why I like PB so much is that it is pretty balanced with views from across the spectrum. Even if @Big_G_NorthWales seems to think it's full of Labour supporters.
    I 100% agree. The bubble effect of apps and social media are not healthy.

    I've noticed an extreme version on my own phone recently. For Christmas my daughter got a kids karaoke machine and I've had my own phone plugged in playing Disney songs for them to sign.

    Yesterday I was listening to music for myself, it started with Living on a Prayer ... Then followed a song from Frozen, then Rapunzel, then Moana. Obviously the algorithm is all distorted now on my music preferences thinking I'm shockingly into children's songs rather than playing songs for my children who weren't around.

    Being taken back to it playing children's songs is not damaging, just amusing. But for someone who falls down the rabbit hole of extreme politics, or conspiracy theories etc then having that sort of thing brought back to the surface regularly for you is like an artificial form of indoctrination.
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    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    Your final point touches of course on the second big mystery of the pandemic. Why did the UK not close its borders? If Canada and NZ did, we certainly could have.

    And the third big mystery is why the media and opposition parties haven't picked up on this.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,979

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dear Mr Hancock

    If there is no evidence schools are riskier than elsewhere, would you please explain these figures?

    https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-teacher-covid-rates-333-above-average

    When the history of covid comes to be written I don't think teachers will be among the lists of heroes. While the police the medical professions the fire departments and the shop keepers are keeping the country going all I see of teachers are those saying they wont do anything however well protected the school is because it might not be safe.
    You mean, when I'm going in three days a week from tomorrow at the height of an infectious pandemic to teach vulnerable children without any protection whatsoever while setting huge amounts of online work for the others, I'm wasting my time because a few muppets think I'm well protected and a coward just because I've caught this government of bullies and morons out for blatant lying?

    Damn it, that's a sign I'm a bad person.

    Or alternatively, it's a sign there are some really ignorant scum out there.

    (PS these meetings are not going too well so far, because we haven't got 80% of the information we need to sort things out. Starting with what the hell we do with many thousands of testing kits that have literally been dumped in front of the main entrance yesterday.)
    Yes, I did see on Facebook as late as teatime yesterday a big academy school which had pulled out all the stops to organise itself for the required mass testing today. Not at all a colossal waste of time and money.
    Granddaughter-in-law, a teacher at a similar establishment wondered in our family group discussion last night what had happened to the boxes of tests that were supposed to arrive with at 8am yesterday.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,432

    Floater said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Im wondering if you really can be that stupid?
    Well that was unnecessary.

    It's fair to highlight that the UK is unlike New Zealand in many ways but the fact the borders are STILL open is a complete disgrace and not defendable.
    We are completely different economies. New Zealand has a just handful of regular flights linking it into the world, and at its tail end at that; on the other hand, we are at the absolute centre of a global hub and rely upon them for our global services economy.

    Jacinda Arden couldn't do what she's done if she were PM of Britain (she'd be far more like Sturgeon, who hasn't been any better remember... just careful to always be a few hours ahead of Boris each time) and Boris would look like a visionary if he were PM of NZ.

    The rest is confirmation bias.


    I don't think Ardern would have the UK Covid-free if in charge, for the reasons you mention. I do think we would probably have had fewer deaths (and an earlier lockdown).

    I also think NZ would not be Covid-free if Johnson was in charge there, he's too much of a ditherer to have acted soon enough (e.g. in closing the borders).
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    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,886
    edited January 2021

    I've made a complaint to the BBC for having Gupta on Today to peddle her wrong opinions about herd immunity again.

    There are so many other more interesting - and more likely to be valid - criticisms to make of lockdown, of why we're in a third one, what we're not doing that we should have done that might have avoided it.

    But Gupta has been wrong at every stage of this emergency and the BBC should be finding people who haven't been proven so reliably wrong to talk to.

    I wondered what on earth she was doing on there too. Maybe R4 should be blocked from the airwaves like Talk Radio on YouTube.

    Her arguments weren't even self-consistent and the whole interview was a total waste of time. Yet she still gets invited.



  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    MaxPB said:

    Mr Bean speaks....

    ‘The problem we have online is that an algorithm decides what we want to see, which ends up creating a simplistic, binary view of society,’ he said. ‘It becomes a case of either you’re with us or against us. And if you’re against us, you deserve to be “cancelled”.

    ‘What we have now is the digital equivalent of the medieval mob roaming the streets looking for someone to burn.

    ‘So it is scary for anyone who’s a victim of that mob and it fills me with fear about the future.’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9113095/Rowan-Atkinson-blasts-social-media-blames-widening-divisions-society.html

    It's important to highlight that this is not just an issue surrounding left-wing "wokeistas". The right also exist in their own bubbles on Twitter and other social media platforms. Likewise, anti-vaxxers and covid deniers also exist in their own bubbles online. That's the issue with social media generally.

    One of the reasons why I like PB so much is that it is pretty balanced with views from across the spectrum. Even if @Big_G_NorthWales seems to think it's full of Labour supporters.
    PB is one of the few places online where there seems to be a fairly representative number of people from across the political spectrum. I think that it helps there's no shy Tory syndrom on here as exists elsewhere online and in real life because leftists really do love shouting down anything remotely right wing as fascist. Being able to post basically freely about anything BTL and not be cancelled is part of what makes PB a great place to debate and actually form my own opinion on important matters. It's a form of debate now missing from much of society because of social media compartmentalising people into their own boxes and then amplifying their views to make it seem that no one with any differing opinions exist or those that do are all mental patients.
    It's also the reason why the 'news' website i read the most is the Guardian. Apart from it actually being pretty good quality, it also presents the news and gives views in a way I don't automatically agree with.

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    Floater said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Im wondering if you really can be that stupid?
    Well that was unnecessary.

    It's fair to highlight that the UK is unlike New Zealand in many ways but the fact the borders are STILL open is a complete disgrace and not defendable.
    We are completely different economies. New Zealand has a just handful of regular flights linking it into the world, and at its tail end at that; on the other hand, we are at the absolute centre of a global hub and rely upon them for our global services economy.

    Jacinda Arden couldn't do what she's done if she were PM of Britain (she'd be far more like Sturgeon, who hasn't been any better remember... just careful to always be a few hours ahead of Boris each time) and Boris would look like a visionary if he were PM of NZ.

    The rest is confirmation bias.


    New Zealand is basically the same as the Isles of Scilly. The Isles of Scilly is wondering "WTF??? Tier 4? Why - what is this "Covid" of which you speak?" The end of a line that not many travel.

    If NZ had Heathrow, they would have been royally screwed too - unless they had closed the airports, closed the ports, manned the anti-aircraft guns.
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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,105

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dear Mr Hancock

    If there is no evidence schools are riskier than elsewhere, would you please explain these figures?

    https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-teacher-covid-rates-333-above-average

    When the history of covid comes to be written I don't think teachers will be among the lists of heroes. While the police the medical professions the fire departments and the shop keepers are keeping the country going all I see of teachers are those saying they wont do anything however well protected the school is because it might not be safe.
    You mean, when I'm going in three days a week from tomorrow at the height of an infectious pandemic to teach vulnerable children without any protection whatsoever while setting huge amounts of online work for the others, I'm wasting my time because a few muppets think I'm well protected and a coward just because I've caught this government of bullies and morons out for blatant lying?

    Damn it, that's a sign I'm a bad person.

    Or alternatively, it's a sign there are some really ignorant scum out there.

    (PS these meetings are not going too well so far, because we haven't got 80% of the information we need to sort things out. Starting with what the hell we do with many thousands of testing kits that have literally been dumped in front of the main entrance yesterday.)
    Yes, I did see on Facebook as late as teatime yesterday a big academy school which had pulled out all the stops to organise itself for the required mass testing today. Not at all a colossal waste of time and money.
    Granddaughter-in-law, a teacher at a similar establishment wondered in our family group discussion last night what had happened to the boxes of tests that were supposed to arrive with at 8am yesterday.
    As long as the Tory donor who supplied them gets paid who cares?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,231
    edited January 2021
    HYUFD said:

    I am not sure how important to the US this vote is, all it really will determine is whether Manchin will be the key Senate swing vote if the Democrats win both seats or Collins will be the key Senate swing vote if the Republicans hold one seat or Collins and Romney will be the key Senate swing votes if the Republicans hold both seats, all relative moderates.

    However if the GOP do hold at least 1 seat then Biden will be the first incoming President not to enter office without his party in control of both chambers of Congress since Bush 41 in 1989.

    I am also not sure if all African Americans will vote for both Democrats, I think some will vote for Warnock but not Ossoff, hence Ossoff only got 47% in November to Biden's 49% and Purdue led Ossoff despite Warnock leading the first round of the Special Election

    Arguably McConnell has made the position of Senate Majority leader more powerful than the President in some areas.

    While a President's veto can be overruled, McConnell has vetoed legislation by refusing to bring it to the Senate for debate or vote. As also with the Supreme Court nomination of Garland.

    That is what is at stake.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Have Wales and NI made any announcement yet?
  • Options
    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    Although the UK has made some major blunders in controlling the spread of the virus, the vaccine roll-out is looking like a success. This is, I think, in large part due to the centralised nature of the NHS. Germany, for example, had 1.3 million doses of vaccine available by the end of last year, but has only managed to use a fraction of that number. This seems to be due in large part to the fragmented nature of the German health system.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    It's notable that most island nations seem to have escaped relatively lightly - New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Iceland all have low death rates.
    Not so much island nations, but how easy it is to control their borders, and how 'interconnected' they are (which being an island makes easier).

    Yes, the UK is an island, but we are much much more interconnected in terms of travel hubs than those countries.
    Maybe we should leave all our international associations and annoy all our neighbours, so that people no longer want to come here?
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Is that actually what happened or are you just guessing?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    The Dems are indeed favourite in both races but are still a shade of odds against to do what they need to do - the double. I'm feeling bullish but also nervous. It means a lot this one. I do not want to see Joe tangled up and able to do nothing of much import. He deserves better than that, having saved his country and the wider world from the gruesome prospect of a 2nd Trump term.
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    pm215pm215 Posts: 936
    HYUFD said:

    I am not sure how important to the US this vote is, all it really will determine is whether Manchin will be the key Senate swing vote if the Democrats win both seats or Collins will be the key Senate swing vote if the Republicans hold one seat or Collins and Romney will be the key Senate swing votes if the Republicans hold both seats, all relative moderates.

    It also determines whether the Senate Majority Leader is McConnell or a Democrat, doesn't it? The Majority Leader gets to decide what business gets put to a vote, so if it's McConnell he can just not hold votes on things he doesn't like, even if they would get >50 votes from Ds+swing Rs. With a Democrat as ML the Ds can bring votes on plausible compromise-ish proposals to the floor and then hope to persuade Collins/Romney. Winning at least one of the two races gives the mainstream of the Republican party serious power to block and stalemate which they won't have if the Dems take both.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    Your final point touches of course on the second big mystery of the pandemic. Why did the UK not close its borders? If Canada and NZ did, we certainly could have.

    And the third big mystery is why the media and opposition parties haven't picked up on this.
    Political and media classes are all cut from the same "mustn't talk about border controls, it looks racist" cloth. Priti Patel seems to be the only politician really pushing for much tougher border controls and The Times suggest she's won that battle after a year of trying, it's not enough but it's definitely a start.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited January 2021
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dear Mr Hancock

    If there is no evidence schools are riskier than elsewhere, would you please explain these figures?

    https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-teacher-covid-rates-333-above-average

    When the history of covid comes to be written I don't think teachers will be among the lists of heroes. While the police the medical professions the fire departments and the shop keepers are keeping the country going all I see of teachers are those saying they wont do anything however well protected the school is because it might not be safe.
    I think that's a little churlish Roger. It isn't safe to be exposed to large numbers of children. The government initially thought it was but it clearly isn't. Those statistics are telling.
    I have a friend who is a head teacher of a primary school who met with all her teachers and they decided collectively to continue teaching. They have done everything they can to make their school safe and have been open continuously since the pandemic started (where allowed by law). They've had no cases but have been put under considerable pressure from the unions to close. It had persuaded me to be on a side I would generally choose not to be on.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    HYUFD said:
    Republicans lose both by under a thousand votes.

    That wouldn't lead to any controversy at all. No lawyers being employed there. No sirreeeee.....
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, did we miss this one yesterday. Margaret Ferrier MP charged with “culpable and reckless conduct” over her train trip from London to Glasgow after positive COVID test.

    https://order-order.com/2021/01/04/margaret-ferrier-mp-arrested/

    By-election incoming?

    It’s interesting that Crown Office decided not to proceed under the plethora of COVID legislation but instead with a common law offence. I was involved for the Crown in such a prosecution nearly 20 years ago now against someone who had unprotected sex with a woman knowing he was HIV+. He was convicted.

    A conviction here could easily meet the criteria for disqualification for being an MP.
    Good point. I think I said at the time, that surely this would meet the standard for reckless endangerment, knowingly travelling on public transport with a communicable disease, irrespective of the covid-specific legislation?

    In England, people were convicted of GBH for infecting others with HIV, and received severe custodial sentences.
    The tough bit for the Crown here is that I seriously doubt that they have evidence of actual infection caused. That would have required a working test and trace app about which you have written this morning. Without that it is still reckless conduct (in my view) but I am not sure how a jury would consider it.
    She better hope that testing hasn't shown she was traced to being the first case of the "Cockney Covid" mutation....
    loony's are out early today
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,057

    I notice while Gordon Brittas is going around this morning demanding the government spends even more money, again nobody wants to close the borders....its not like there is a new super version of Cockey COVID or anything out there.

    I can’t think who you mean.

    https://youtu.be/umFANv7KdPY
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    kinabalu said:

    The Dems are indeed favourite in both races but are still a shade of odds against to do what they need to do - the double. I'm feeling bullish but also nervous. It means a lot this one. I do not want to see Joe tangled up and able to do nothing of much import. He deserves better than that, having saved his country and the wider world from the gruesome prospect of a 2nd Trump term.

    The Dems better have a strategy to counter the GOP's sudden obsession with "the deficit" as soon as they're out of power.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    The predictable scramble for vaccines as they become available puts India at the front of queue.

    The Indian Government will stockpile the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine until March as part of a nationwide vaccination drive, delaying its wider distribution to the developing world.

    The Serum Institute of India (SII), which has gained a licence to produce at least one billion doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, was granted emergency use authorisation by the Indian Government on Sunday on the condition that it doesn’t export the shots.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/pharmacy-developing-world-shuts-doors-india-stockpiles-oxford/
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Chris said:

    I think the large amounts of conflicting guidance is more the problem..

    #backtonormalbyXmas

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1346381774797090816?s=21

    Absolutely. We've all had more than enough of appallingly incompetent guidance from the government.

    Don't wear masks, for example. Washing your hands is the main thing. Feel free to go out for exercise even if you've got symptoms. We'll pay you to eat out in restaurants. Seven days self-isolation is fine. Get back to work. Get back to school. Get back to normal. Go on foreign holidays.

    It never bloody ends.
    Masks ... which of the 4 nations was the last to change the advice?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52631835

    "From Monday 27 July three-layer face coverings will be mandatory on all public transport in Wales - buses, trains, and taxis. It brings Wales into line with Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, who all demand passengers wear face masks."
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    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
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    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This cannot be true as @HYUFD assured us that all of the 2019 intake worship Boris for winning them their seats.
    2 out of 107, for goodness sake and they probably are not even in the 48 seats the Tories gained in 2019
    That poll yesterday shows it is coming. New Tory voters. In Red Wall seats. Think the government and PM are lying to them, will make them poorer at the expense of the rich, that levelling up will not happen.

    Your electorate voted for you a year ago. But are increasingly unhappy.
  • Options

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
    What about if people fly to Holland then transfer to a flight from there?
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    Your final point touches of course on the second big mystery of the pandemic. Why did the UK not close its borders? If Canada and NZ did, we certainly could have.

    And the third big mystery is why the media and opposition parties haven't picked up on this.
    Political and media classes are all cut from the same "mustn't talk about border controls, it looks racist" cloth. Priti Patel seems to be the only politician really pushing for much tougher border controls and The Times suggest she's won that battle after a year of trying, it's not enough but it's definitely a start.
    Of course border controls during a national health emergency are a very different political consideration to border controls during normal times.

    Regardless, I don't think "the left", other than the extreme, has a problem with the concept of border controls. Controls are not what's in dispute - what's in dispute is the policy for allowing people in.
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,886

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dear Mr Hancock

    If there is no evidence schools are riskier than elsewhere, would you please explain these figures?

    https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-teacher-covid-rates-333-above-average

    When the history of covid comes to be written I don't think teachers will be among the lists of heroes. While the police the medical professions the fire departments and the shop keepers are keeping the country going all I see of teachers are those saying they wont do anything however well protected the school is because it might not be safe.
    Roger that is complete rubbish. I can only assume you don't have school age children. Our kids' teachers have moved heaven and earth to deliver teaching during this pandemic, whether in person or as now remotely. The virus was ripping through schools - our daughter caught it there before Christmas - and teachers were absolutely right to highlight the risks. The government has provided too little money, no help with planning and has been making up policy as it goes along - one minute threatening legal action against schools that close, the next ordering them to close at a few hours' notice. Blaming the teachers for the ongoing fiasco that has resulted from the government’s own incompetence is just the latest outrage, but sadly typical of Johnson's divide and rule style of government.
    The policy on schools has been chaotic, yes.

    But what are the comparative covid rates amongst - eg supermarket workers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, food factory workers and any number of other essential jobs where people have continued working throughout the pandemic? Not to mention NHS staff.

    I doubt schools are any worse than a food factory. Yet we all expect people to carry on working there because it is deemed essential.

    Are teachers essential or not?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited January 2021

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
    What about if people fly to Holland then transfer to a flight from there?
    Then they should quarantine, but there's no flight ban from Holland, as far as I understand.

    Though most of Europe has banned flights from SA. In fact I believe the EU as a whole pretty much has, so its a pretty moot suggestion AFAIK.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Is that actually what happened or are you just guessing?
    They had a call yesterday morning. "Nicola" then held hers early afternoon before Boris at 8pm.

    A meme then started doing the rounds on WhatsApp of Boris 'copying' Nicola's homework in the style of Mr. Bean.

    She does it. Because it works.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    Your final point touches of course on the second big mystery of the pandemic. Why did the UK not close its borders? If Canada and NZ did, we certainly could have.

    And the third big mystery is why the media and opposition parties haven't picked up on this.
    Political and media classes are all cut from the same "mustn't talk about border controls, it looks racist" cloth. Priti Patel seems to be the only politician really pushing for much tougher border controls and The Times suggest she's won that battle after a year of trying, it's not enough but it's definitely a start.
    Of course border controls during a national health emergency are a very different political consideration to border controls during normal times.

    Regardless, I don't think "the left", other than the extreme, has a problem with the concept of border controls. Controls are not what's in dispute - what's in dispute is the policy for allowing people in.
    It is however noticeable how despite calling for pretty much everything else in terms of restrictions, no matter how it will affect business or how much it will cost the taxpayer, the likes of Starmer never calls for the border to be shut.
  • Options

    Floater said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Im wondering if you really can be that stupid?
    Well that was unnecessary.

    It's fair to highlight that the UK is unlike New Zealand in many ways but the fact the borders are STILL open is a complete disgrace and not defendable.
    We are completely different economies. New Zealand has a just handful of regular flights linking it into the world, and at its tail end at that; on the other hand, we are at the absolute centre of a global hub and rely upon them for our global services economy.

    Jacinda Arden couldn't do what she's done if she were PM of Britain (she'd be far more like Sturgeon, who hasn't been any better remember... just careful to always be a few hours ahead of Boris each time) and Boris would look like a visionary if he were PM of NZ.

    The rest is confirmation bias.


    Don't worry. The WOPR computer won't forget New Zealand


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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,105

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Call probably more like:
    "Prime Minister, this crisis requires decisive action. In Scotland we will go for a full national lockdown, we have to act now to save lives. I will announce it this afternoon."
    "Er crikey Nicola, do you really think that is necessary? (mumbles something in bad schoolboy Latin). Er, what would Dom do? Cripes, this is jolly complicated! We don't want you sweaties making us look bad! I'll speak to Gavin, he'll know what to do..."
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,979

    HYUFD said:
    Republicans lose both by under a thousand votes.

    That wouldn't lead to any controversy at all. No lawyers being employed there. No sirreeeee.....
    Trump banging on about 'traitors' who can't organise elections maybe, too.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Is that actually what happened or are you just guessing?
    They had a call yesterday morning. "Nicola" then held hers early afternoon before Boris at 8pm.

    A meme then started doing the rounds on WhatsApp of Boris 'copying' Nicola's homework in the style of Mr. Bean.

    She does it. Because it works.
    The emergency session for the announcement was called on the Sunday, AIUI, while the clown and Gavlar were still going round insisting that English primary schools would be opening. Indeed the Scottish announcement was made whilst English primary school children were running round infecting each other in the playground.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991
    kinabalu said:

    The Dems are indeed favourite in both races but are still a shade of odds against to do what they need to do - the double. I'm feeling bullish but also nervous. It means a lot this one. I do not want to see Joe tangled up and able to do nothing of much import. He deserves better than that, having saved his country and the wider world from the gruesome prospect of a 2nd Trump term.

    The vote was anti Trump, just, for which Biden was able to capitalise as a relative pragmatist and centrist, the vote was not for a Democratic landslide and to shift the US left
  • Options

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
    What about if people fly to Holland then transfer to a flight from there?
    Then they should quarantine, but there's no flight ban from Holland, as far as I understand.

    Though most of Europe has banned flights from SA. In fact I believe the EU as a whole pretty much has, so its a pretty moot suggestion AFAIK.
    And of course we are welcoming back all those z-list celebs like Piers Moron who went to the Caribbean and Middle East from their winter hols.
  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    Your final point touches of course on the second big mystery of the pandemic. Why did the UK not close its borders? If Canada and NZ did, we certainly could have.

    And the third big mystery is why the media and opposition parties haven't picked up on this.
    Political and media classes are all cut from the same "mustn't talk about border controls, it looks racist" cloth. Priti Patel seems to be the only politician really pushing for much tougher border controls and The Times suggest she's won that battle after a year of trying, it's not enough but it's definitely a start.
    Of course border controls during a national health emergency are a very different political consideration to border controls during normal times.

    Regardless, I don't think "the left", other than the extreme, has a problem with the concept of border controls. Controls are not what's in dispute - what's in dispute is the policy for allowing people in.
    It is however noticeable how despite calling for pretty much everything else in terms of restrictions, no matter how it will affect business or how much it will cost the taxpayer, the likes of Starmer never calls for the border to be shut.
    Yes. Anybody know why?

    No silly answers please. I'd really like to know.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,105

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dear Mr Hancock

    If there is no evidence schools are riskier than elsewhere, would you please explain these figures?

    https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-teacher-covid-rates-333-above-average

    When the history of covid comes to be written I don't think teachers will be among the lists of heroes. While the police the medical professions the fire departments and the shop keepers are keeping the country going all I see of teachers are those saying they wont do anything however well protected the school is because it might not be safe.
    Roger that is complete rubbish. I can only assume you don't have school age children. Our kids' teachers have moved heaven and earth to deliver teaching during this pandemic, whether in person or as now remotely. The virus was ripping through schools - our daughter caught it there before Christmas - and teachers were absolutely right to highlight the risks. The government has provided too little money, no help with planning and has been making up policy as it goes along - one minute threatening legal action against schools that close, the next ordering them to close at a few hours' notice. Blaming the teachers for the ongoing fiasco that has resulted from the government’s own incompetence is just the latest outrage, but sadly typical of Johnson's divide and rule style of government.
    The policy on schools has been chaotic, yes.

    But what are the comparative covid rates amongst - eg supermarket workers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, food factory workers and any number of other essential jobs where people have continued working throughout the pandemic? Not to mention NHS staff.

    I doubt schools are any worse than a food factory. Yet we all expect people to carry on working there because it is deemed essential.

    Are teachers essential or not?
    Can you drive a taxi via Teams?
  • Options

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Which would be funny had the Westminster hacks not already reported that No10 was scrabbling around yesterday afternoon after the Holyrood speech with Cabinet not briefed until teatime.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Is that actually what happened or are you just guessing?
    They had a call yesterday morning. "Nicola" then held hers early afternoon before Boris at 8pm.

    A meme then started doing the rounds on WhatsApp of Boris 'copying' Nicola's homework in the style of Mr. Bean.

    She does it. Because it works.
    If it works good for her! Before you know it she'll be writing nonsense on red buses. Ad agencies cant get away with it but in politics there are no rules
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    The Dems are indeed favourite in both races but are still a shade of odds against to do what they need to do - the double. I'm feeling bullish but also nervous. It means a lot this one. I do not want to see Joe tangled up and able to do nothing of much import. He deserves better than that, having saved his country and the wider world from the gruesome prospect of a 2nd Trump term.

    Relax, either way he is going to be constrained, either way there are enough moderates that he can get some things done.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
    There's a Virgin Atlantic flight due to arrive at Heathrow from Johannesburg at 07:15 tomorrow morning.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,979

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This cannot be true as @HYUFD assured us that all of the 2019 intake worship Boris for winning them their seats.
    2 out of 107, for goodness sake and they probably are not even in the 48 seats the Tories gained in 2019
    That poll yesterday shows it is coming. New Tory voters. In Red Wall seats. Think the government and PM are lying to them, will make them poorer at the expense of the rich, that levelling up will not happen.

    Your electorate voted for you a year ago. But are increasingly unhappy.
    Short piece on BBC Look East yesterday indicated that fishermen along the East Coast were NOT AT ALL HAPPY!
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,277

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This cannot be true as @HYUFD assured us that all of the 2019 intake worship Boris for winning them their seats.
    2 out of 107, for goodness sake and they probably are not even in the 48 seats the Tories gained in 2019
    That poll yesterday shows it is coming. New Tory voters. In Red Wall seats. Think the government and PM are lying to them, will make them poorer at the expense of the rich, that levelling up will not happen.

    Your electorate voted for you a year ago. But are increasingly unhappy.
    Do you mean the poll where the Tories were up 6%?
    Or the other one where they increased their lead over Labour only marginally?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This cannot be true as @HYUFD assured us that all of the 2019 intake worship Boris for winning them their seats.
    2 out of 107, for goodness sake and they probably are not even in the 48 seats the Tories gained in 2019
    That poll yesterday shows it is coming. New Tory voters. In Red Wall seats. Think the government and PM are lying to them, will make them poorer at the expense of the rich, that levelling up will not happen.

    Your electorate voted for you a year ago. But are increasingly unhappy.
    If Boris leads Europe in permanently coming out of lockdowns, his star will twinkle again.

    What will do for him is if he can't deliver on levelling up. That agenda has been put back by Covid, perhaps to a very large degree. There isn't now the scope for that extra money to be shipped north.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,977

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Places of worship have strict number limits and older parishioners are simply not attending.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    I'm pretty sure it's just that to be honest. At the beginning there was a lot of luck involved for sure. Bergamo could have been Birmingham or Bilbao probably.

    But now - the virus is basically everywhere - and what matters is how well our systems manage to isolate the infected from the rest.

    Having an ageing population + more people with pre-existing conditions means you are going to get more deaths/case. But some countries have done public health much better than others. Europe/US generally has failed I think, with the UK squandering some particular advantages that should have helped us.
    Your final point touches of course on the second big mystery of the pandemic. Why did the UK not close its borders? If Canada and NZ did, we certainly could have.

    And the third big mystery is why the media and opposition parties haven't picked up on this.
    Political and media classes are all cut from the same "mustn't talk about border controls, it looks racist" cloth. Priti Patel seems to be the only politician really pushing for much tougher border controls and The Times suggest she's won that battle after a year of trying, it's not enough but it's definitely a start.
    Of course border controls during a national health emergency are a very different political consideration to border controls during normal times.

    Regardless, I don't think "the left", other than the extreme, has a problem with the concept of border controls. Controls are not what's in dispute - what's in dispute is the policy for allowing people in.
    It is however noticeable how despite calling for pretty much everything else in terms of restrictions, no matter how it will affect business or how much it will cost the taxpayer, the likes of Starmer never calls for the border to be shut.
    That's something I don't understand. It's a total open goal.
  • Options

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
    There's a Virgin Atlantic flight due to arrive at Heathrow from Johannesburg at 07:15 tomorrow morning.
    Oh? Sky reported they were all grounded, with much complaining about it. Odd.

    I wonder what rules if any are attached to that flight then. Very odd.
  • Options
    GaussianGaussian Posts: 793

    The government has given its word that there is a clear way out of this hell. They must be seen - clearly and accountably - to be taking us there.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/04/pm-has-staked-credibility-february-vaccine-pledge-better-not/

    The figures can easily be manipulated, although personally I thought yesterday's pledge was one of Johnson's more doable boasts. Nonetheless, is it still wise to be throwing out pledges when few of the previous pledges appear to have been delivered? That said, a failed Johnson promise doesn't seem to do him any harm. Failure is covered by the next bigger and better ambition.

    Anyway the fanbois on here are happy with their hero, so all is good!
    They really have never heard of the phrase underpromise and over deliver. If they just took the RyanAir acheduking approach and had said our target is mid March for these groups,
    that will be faster than anywhere else in Europe, most people would have gone hmmm ok...then if they get it done by start of March, they get to claim victory.

    Instead, what will happen is some production delays and slower than forecast rate of jabbing and before we know it the timeline has slipped to start of March, without really AZN, the government or the NHS really doing anything massively wrong....but theh will be bashed from pillar to post.
    Assuming the lockdown will actually contain the current outbreak, I think we're still due one more round of opening up too quickly and reintroducing restrictions too slowly, because any fall in cases will be ascribed to the vaccines even though it is still primarily our behaviour that controls the R rate. Unrestricted R seems well above 3, and even 50% vaccinated with a 70% efficacy only brings it down by a third. And the partial protection also still leaves plenty of people to potentially get seriously ill.
  • Options
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:


    The lost income from student rents may actually be less than lost income from summer schools and conferences, which will probably not fully rebound after COVID. This may end up being the more significant problem.
    --AS

    Yes, quite likely. This is an area that has changed in recent years, where academic conferences used to be charged more or less at cost by a host university, but it's now common to get private companies (sometimes university owned, sometimes not) to run the conference with much inflated costs. Nice earner for universities (an other hosts) and doesn't bother the university customers too much as the inflated costs are now factored into funding proposals. However, stop the conferences and a black hole develops that wouldn't have occurred years ago when conferences were run close to cost. Another area where commercialisation of universities has increased their incomes but now leaves them more exposed than before to events like the present.

    Of course, many are trying to run online courses/conferences at the same fee and there will be some success there. Grants normally require funds to be spent during grant duration and any unspent funds go back to the funder, so there's an incentive for people like me to pay over the odds for an online course or conference with reduced benefit rather than just give the money back for no benefit.

    Does mean academics like me are not getting our normal ell expenses paid foreign holidays... er... conferences :disappointed:
    On a more serious note, my current grant includes funding to begin/grow a collaboration with colleagues in Canada. This is depended on travel as the legal framework for accessing data is such that we can only access their data within Canada and they can only access ours within UK. We don't yet know whether we'll be able to defer the funding for travel assuming it cannot happen this year (grant ends this year) but if not then we'll need to build it into a future proposal or it won't happen. The idea is that we can share our methods in each other's data. We can share code remotely and explain methods, but it's much more effective if you can actually see the data and apply/demonstrate your methods directly, which we simple cannot legally do without travel.

    The sensible thing of course will be to extend the deadline for spending the grant money, but no idea yet whether that will be permitted.
    Sorry to hear that. Funding bodies are not known for their flexibility.

    My own international collaborations are withering, not for any reason as serious as yours but simply because they relied on in-person "brainstorming" which doesn't work online. I think there's likely to be a move to permanently reduce international academic travel (because of the environment, but also cost) and some in charge simply don't understand this sort of thing. For all that we joke about all-expenses-paid holiday/conferences, my international collaborations happened because of dinners after the sessions: building trust, setting up informal information flows, and having time to discuss wacky ideas without the pressure of a result. A return to locality-focused silos would be a backward step, but... well, it is what it is.

    --AS
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    HYUFD said:
    HYUFD. As a matter of interest who would you prefer to win?
  • Options
    From the Guardian...

    Italy has decided to keep nationwide restrictions in place while relaxing curbs on weekdays, Reuters is reporting.

    That can't be right or sensible? Lockdown during the week, out on the town on the weekdays?
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    edited January 2021

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    When the dust finally settles I think the UK will come out of this with one of the worst death rates per million, one of the worst infection rates per million and be one of worst drops in GDP.

    If that is the case then the Government has to take a substantial part of the blame. After all, if the situation was reversed Bozo would be right up there taking the credit.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
    There's a Virgin Atlantic flight due to arrive at Heathrow from Johannesburg at 07:15 tomorrow morning.
    Oh? Sky reported they were all grounded, with much complaining about it. Odd.

    I wonder what rules if any are attached to that flight then. Very odd.
    Looking at it in more detail it may just be a repeating schedule that will get cancelled: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/vs450

    My mistake.
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,886

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
    What about if people fly to Holland then transfer to a flight from there?
    Flights to Holland from SA are also banned.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
    There's a Virgin Atlantic flight due to arrive at Heathrow from Johannesburg at 07:15 tomorrow morning.
    It could be one of those ghost flights that airlines run to avoid compensation payouts. Also UK residents are still allowed to come back.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Halfon (Chair of Ed Select Ctte) saying ministers were churning out messages to MPs over the weekend insisting that schools were safe and would definitely be opening.

    He says he doesn't know what happened and that it is "a huge shambles". Asked whether Williamson is to blame, he says "I think it is the entire government".
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Is that actually what happened or are you just guessing?
    They had a call yesterday morning. "Nicola" then held hers early afternoon before Boris at 8pm.

    A meme then started doing the rounds on WhatsApp of Boris 'copying' Nicola's homework in the style of Mr. Bean.

    She does it. Because it works.
    So when at the weekend Sturgeon said there was going to be a cabinet meeting on Monday and a statement to parliament in the afternoon about further restrictions she was psychic then?
  • Options

    Analysis: 'Closing schools the only level left to pull' - Hannah Richardson, BBC News education and social affairs reporter

    Raises hand slowly......the border?.....places of worship?....

    Are there still flights in from SA? I dont know. But if there are and the SA variant takes off and the vaccine doesn't work as well then Johnson just has to resign. End of. The final piece of inane clownery.
    No, flights from SA were grounded when the announcement was made . . . to much moaning in the media of the sudden grounding. 🙄
    There's a Virgin Atlantic flight due to arrive at Heathrow from Johannesburg at 07:15 tomorrow morning.
    Oh? Sky reported they were all grounded, with much complaining about it. Odd.

    I wonder what rules if any are attached to that flight then. Very odd.
    Passenger planes carry cargo as well as passengers. I suppose it could be empty of passengers but still carrying high-value freight.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991
    edited January 2021
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:
    HYUFD. As a matter of interest who would you prefer to win?
    I have said I would have voted Biden for President but Republican for Congress in November, so I would stick to that and vote for Perdue and Loeffler to ensure no major shift left in the US if I were voting
  • Options

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Great bantz, apart from Sturgeon announcing the day before that there'd be a statement at Holyrood.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,628
    HYUFD said:
    HYUFD I note recent polls have shown leads for the Dems. This one not so. Do you know what sort of bias, if any, this pollster has towards the Dems/Reps?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,706
    IanB2 said:

    Boris and Nicola have a call: "Nicola, I will make a UK-wide announcement at 8pm tonight on a full national lockdown, and the vaccine strategy. We will beat this."

    Nicola: "Good. It's the right thing to do. Goodbye"

    Nicola to her aides: "QUICK! Schedule my announcement at 2pm today!!"

    Is that actually what happened or are you just guessing?
    They had a call yesterday morning. "Nicola" then held hers early afternoon before Boris at 8pm.

    A meme then started doing the rounds on WhatsApp of Boris 'copying' Nicola's homework in the style of Mr. Bean.

    She does it. Because it works.
    The emergency session for the announcement was called on the Sunday, AIUI, while the clown and Gavlar were still going round insisting that English primary schools would be opening. Indeed the Scottish announcement was made whilst English primary school children were running round infecting each other in the playground.
    Scots had already been warned to expect online teaching in January until at least 18 January - and that warning was back in 21 December. (There were esceptions for vulnerable and key worker children, though.)
  • Options

    kinabalu said:

    The Dems are indeed favourite in both races but are still a shade of odds against to do what they need to do - the double. I'm feeling bullish but also nervous. It means a lot this one. I do not want to see Joe tangled up and able to do nothing of much import. He deserves better than that, having saved his country and the wider world from the gruesome prospect of a 2nd Trump term.

    Relax, either way he is going to be constrained, either way there are enough moderates that he can get some things done.
    That's true, but Loeffler and Purdue happen to be particularly odious politicians so it would be nice to see them shafted.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    <
    Although the UK has made some major blunders in controlling the spread of the virus, the vaccine roll-out is looking like a success. This is, I think, in large part due to the centralised nature of the NHS. Germany, for example, had 1.3 million doses of vaccine available by the end of last year, but has only managed to use a fraction of that number. This seems to be due in large part to the fragmented nature of the German health system.

    Certainly plausible that centralized system = easier vaccine rollout.
    I don't know if I would our rollout as a success just yet though - lot of wood yet to chop.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,979
    OllyT said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Floater said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Maybe New Zealand is just a very different country in a much different geographical position?

    Well, as an island it obviously has advantages that the Great Britain could never have.
    Does a bridge/tunnel mean that an island stops being an island? That's not to say that I think we shouldn't have done a whole lot better, but I think NZ is a little different to GB.
    One of the mysteries of the pandemic is why some countries have done so much better than others in keeping it under control despite an absence of natural advantages. OK, so NZ is an Island but no more so than other islands that have not done so well. Why have Vietnam and Norway been so good. How does Canada manage to be so much better than the USA, with which it shares a 5,000 mile border?

    One is tempted to conclude it might have something to do with how smart their governments have been, but maybe that's simplistic.
    When the dust finally settles I think the UK will come out of this with one of the worst death rates per million, one of the worst infection rates per million and be one of worst drops in GDP.

    If that is the case then the Government has to take a substantial part of the blame. After all, if the situation was reversed Bozo would be right up there taking the credit.
    PM Johnson doesn't 'do' blame. Or, to be more accurate accept it when he should.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,979
    IanB2 said:

    Halfon (Chair of Ed Select Ctte) saying ministers were churning out messages to MPs over the weekend insisting that schools were safe and would definitely be opening.

    He says he doesn't know what happened and that it is "a huge shambles". Asked whether Williamson is to blame, he says "I think it is the entire government".

    I rather get the impression that Haflon's somewhat cross about being left out of the Government. Rather like Hunt.
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    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,886
    edited January 2021

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dear Mr Hancock

    If there is no evidence schools are riskier than elsewhere, would you please explain these figures?

    https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-teacher-covid-rates-333-above-average

    When the history of covid comes to be written I don't think teachers will be among the lists of heroes. While the police the medical professions the fire departments and the shop keepers are keeping the country going all I see of teachers are those saying they wont do anything however well protected the school is because it might not be safe.
    Roger that is complete rubbish. I can only assume you don't have school age children. Our kids' teachers have moved heaven and earth to deliver teaching during this pandemic, whether in person or as now remotely. The virus was ripping through schools - our daughter caught it there before Christmas - and teachers were absolutely right to highlight the risks. The government has provided too little money, no help with planning and has been making up policy as it goes along - one minute threatening legal action against schools that close, the next ordering them to close at a few hours' notice. Blaming the teachers for the ongoing fiasco that has resulted from the government’s own incompetence is just the latest outrage, but sadly typical of Johnson's divide and rule style of government.
    The policy on schools has been chaotic, yes.

    But what are the comparative covid rates amongst - eg supermarket workers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, food factory workers and any number of other essential jobs where people have continued working throughout the pandemic? Not to mention NHS staff.

    I doubt schools are any worse than a food factory. Yet we all expect people to carry on working there because it is deemed essential.

    Are teachers essential or not?
    Can you drive a taxi via Teams?
    Of course not. But can you really teach kids in chaotic households via Teams? My Nephew certainly isn't getting much remote teaching and certainly isn't getting a lot of encouragement at home.

    The thing that annoys me is not the complaining about the government but the assumption that teachers have a right to avoid the plague. There are a lot of people who have no choice but to get on with it as best they can. If there are teachers that are very vulnerable then accommodation should be made for them, just like in other spheres of work.

    It was just a bad job to be in during a pandemic and that's all there is to it. Nobody really wants to be here.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991
    edited January 2021
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:
    HYUFD I note recent polls have shown leads for the Dems. This one not so. Do you know what sort of bias, if any, this pollster has towards the Dems/Reps?
    The other final polls actually show a pretty mixed picture, all show 2 close races

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1346277393674153986?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1346144438041632768?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1346255616373907456?s=20

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1346143531438641164?s=20
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172



    Sorry to hear that. Funding bodies are not known for their flexibility.

    My own international collaborations are withering, not for any reason as serious as yours but simply because they relied on in-person "brainstorming" which doesn't work online. I think there's likely to be a move to permanently reduce international academic travel (because of the environment, but also cost) and some in charge simply don't understand this sort of thing. For all that we joke about all-expenses-paid holiday/conferences, my international collaborations happened because of dinners after the sessions: building trust, setting up informal information flows, and having time to discuss wacky ideas without the pressure of a result. A return to locality-focused silos would be a backward step, but... well, it is what it is.

    --AS

    You are normally allowed to vire money between headings on grants. I am always robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sturgeon closed schools weeks ago. Boris closed them yesterday. How on earth can you try and concoct the notion that Sturgeon is front running Johnson by a couple of hours?
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    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:
    HYUFD. As a matter of interest who would you prefer to win?
    I have said I would have voted Biden for President but Republican for Congress in November, so I would stick to that and vote for Perdue and Loeffler to ensure no major shift left in the US if I were voting
    You'd vote for Perdue knowing he is a crook?

    What a surprise.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,277
    Gaussian said:

    The government has given its word that there is a clear way out of this hell. They must be seen - clearly and accountably - to be taking us there.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/04/pm-has-staked-credibility-february-vaccine-pledge-better-not/

    The figures can easily be manipulated, although personally I thought yesterday's pledge was one of Johnson's more doable boasts. Nonetheless, is it still wise to be throwing out pledges when few of the previous pledges appear to have been delivered? That said, a failed Johnson promise doesn't seem to do him any harm. Failure is covered by the next bigger and better ambition.

    Anyway the fanbois on here are happy with their hero, so all is good!
    They really have never heard of the phrase underpromise and over deliver. If they just took the RyanAir acheduking approach and had said our target is mid March for these groups,
    that will be faster than anywhere else in Europe, most people would have gone hmmm ok...then if they get it done by start of March, they get to claim victory.

    Instead, what will happen is some production delays and slower than forecast rate of jabbing and before we know it the timeline has slipped to start of March, without really AZN, the government or the NHS really doing anything massively wrong....but theh will be bashed from pillar to post.
    Assuming the lockdown will actually contain the current outbreak, I think we're still due one more round of opening up too quickly and reintroducing restrictions too slowly, because any fall in cases will be ascribed to the vaccines even though it is still primarily our behaviour that controls the R rate. Unrestricted R seems well above 3, and even 50% vaccinated with a 70% efficacy only brings it down by a third. And the partial protection also still leaves plenty of people to potentially get seriously ill.
    I think that its very unlikely that even Defcom 5 (you sure about this? Ed) is going to stop the spread of the new variant. At best we are likely to see a levelling off of cases at a very high level until the vaccines start to have an effect. We simply cannot operate, feed ourselves, look after our sick, care for our relatives, etc without a sufficient level of interaction for this new variant to spread. The vaccine is the only hope.
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