Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Yes - if you think social security benefits are better in Spain than in the UK you have totally lost the plot. I love Spain but no contributions mean no benefits. If you think the Spanish love 'furriners' /migrants, etc again you really have no idea. Attitudes that I witness are much the same the world over - believe me not all Scots are full of the sweetness and light we read here so often from the saint that is Malc G! When you move to a new country you take a huge risk in very many ways. For me it has been worth it but not because I hate the UK or because I think i'm in Shangrila here.
The social security system is quite brutal in Spain it’s also based on what you declare for tax purposes or what your employer does. When the proscribed time is up that’s it. It’s one of the reasons family units are more important in Spain than the UK as the working elements of the family prop up those not. This year will be particularly difficult with charities not able to raise the money to see homeless people through the winter, one of ours raised its money collecting ‘voluntary’ euro charges to park on the beach car parks which have been closed all summer. It’s turning out to be quite a cold winter which won’t help. The spanish need the Moroccans to work the fields but they don’t like them. I’m here for the weather, the outdoor lifestyle, distance between me and my lifetime obsession with UK politics and the price of some things like fags and booze which I can no longer have. The main downside has been brought home brutally this year which is the isolation when things go tits up which I never expected to happen. When things go wrong they do seem to all come together.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
The same way an obese individual can be strengthened by losing a stone of fat.
Wales would be strengthened too.
@Big_G_NorthWales this 👆is the sort of dumb, nasty English Nationalist Brexit attitude that concerns me. They don’t care about the breakup of the UK.
What do you mean I don't care?
I do care. I wouldn't be saying it was a good thing if I didn't care - it is because I care that I consider it to be good.
Mr. Fishing, an English Parliament and then a more federal UK political body could be a cohesive way forward.
The political and media class, however, seem to be allergic to contemplating the idea of an English Parliament, preferring to consider (when they think of England at all) the various ways it can be cut into pieces.
Totally agree Morris. Maybe York could be a good place for an English Parliament. I would also like a more democratic second chamber with PR. However do not expect any of this changes as governments usually say its not a priority.
p.s. and cab drivers and pax have to wear masks. Most pax also sit in the back. I feel safer in an uber than I do walking around my local shops.
The anomaly is that cab rides are within the rules but that lifts from friends (unless they are in your support bubble) are not, despite that being less risky.
Nothing anomalous about that.
Taxi lifts are permitted but pax and driver must wear masks. Most pax sit in the back and, in the case of uber, they're hot on disinfectant. You can't readily ban taxi rides as they are essential for some people especially the elderly.
Getting into the front seat of a friend's car, without a mask I hasten to add, and then walking into a supermarket together is against the rules. And crazy behaviour.
There's no anomaly about it.
I think we are using the word anomaly to mean different things.
Well where I totally disagree with you is your contention that normal lifts are safer. No way. My friend's daughter and her driver friend were maskless and sitting together in the front. Which is how most people give lifts to one another.
A taxi driver, let's stick to uber, has to disinfect their car every morning. They have hand sanitiser for the passenger. Both driver and pax are required to wear masks and normally the pax sits in the back. When you book you have to acknowledge and accept these rules.
I've taken several uber rides during this virus when I've had to and have felt very safe.
My friend's daughter's behaviour is typical of what's going on.
In contrast, my anecdata is that mask observance has substantially improved in the last month or so, particularly in supermarkets.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.
The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.
If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
I love Wales! The challenge for Welsh nationalism is that legally Wales was part of England having been annexed by us long long ago. Thats why there isn't a Welsh Dragon on the Union Flag, you are represented by the English flag. Its shit, its stupid, and its being reversed.
The challenge for Welsh independence is that whereas 80% of voters in Scotland were born in Scotland, only 70% of voters in Wales were born in Wales.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.
The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
How are the inevitable 20 miles queues of trucks on the M20 doing?
As and when hauliers are brave enough to start venturing across in any numbers we will find out.
Question - if we aren't expecting queues then why have we built vast truck parks and sequestered various roads for queuing purposes?
Better safe than sorry.
Plus the French regularly have paid silly buggers and so sequestered roads have existed for thirty years. So may as well be prepared for when they're needed again.
"Many on the remainer left accept the EU has its faults, but they fear that Brexit will be the start of something worse: slash and burn deregulation that will make Britain a nastier place to live.
This, though, assumes that Britain will have rightwing governments in perpetuity. It used to be the left who welcomed change and the right that wanted things to remain the same. The inability to envisage what a progressive government could do with Brexit represents a political role reversal and a colossal loss of nerve."
This, I guess, is Steve Baker's concept of Sunlit Uplands. Not sure what this has got to do with the European Union, but presumably he expects more of these kind of fields now we have thrown off the shackles...
They are fields where the unicorns can graze freely.
There seems to be an absence of any life: unicorns, animals, people or crops. Maybe the point is the EU have kept us out of the sunlit uplands for so long and now we can pitch our tents and reclaim them ...
Perhaps you have just described the inside of Steve Baker's mind, empty with enough room to pitch some tents.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.
Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?
Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.
Yes, nationalism is very specifically about blaming others for your problems. It is an entirely destructive political philosophy. The fall-out from the break-up of the UK will be far more consequential, long-lasting unpleasant than anything Brexit delivers.
Absolute fearmongering nonsense.
Nationalism is about taking responsibility for yourselves and not using others as a crutch.
You don't read much history, do you Phil?
I do.
All extremes can go wrong when people take things too far. But the end result of independence is always (and has always been) that a country either needs to take responsibility for itself, or fail. Sink or swim.
How are the inevitable 20 miles queues of trucks on the M20 doing?
Drivers are expected to stay away from the main Channel ports on New Year’s Day and over the weekend due to fears that new paperwork requirements could lead to long traffic jams.
About 800 HGVs are expected to use the Port of Dover and the Channel Tunnel today as the UK’s new trading relationship with the European Union is introduced. Up to 10,000 trucks a day would usually make the crossing between Kent and Calais.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.
The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.
If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
1535 is a long time ago, much longer than 1707, and I am afraid the unification of the legal systems also makes a big difference.
Wales is not part of England.
Not any more. But it was. Pointing that out doesn't make me an anti-Welsh bigot. Its pointing to the challenge of creating a wholly new state where one didn't previously exist being different to recreating an old state. If Wales wants independence then great - self-determination is everything.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.
The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.
If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
1535 is a long time ago, much longer than 1707, and I am afraid the unification of the legal systems also makes a big difference.
Wales is not part of England.
No, but it is irretrievably part of EnglandnWales.
There is no such country as EnglandnWales.
If Scotland leaves, Wales will not be staying.
I am (was) a solicitor of the courts of England and Wales despite never in my life coming within 100 miles of Wales in a professional capacity. That's a pretty good test of single nationhood.
Edit: strictly speaking I once had a case in the Bristol Mercantile Court. No closer though.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.
The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.
If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
1535 is a long time ago, much longer than 1707, and I am afraid the unification of the legal systems also makes a big difference.
Wales is not part of England.
No, but it is irretrievably part of EnglandnWales.
There is no such country as EnglandnWales.
If Scotland leaves, Wales will not be staying.
Surely, that depends how well things go for Scotland? If it turns out that the SNP has been peddling empty rhetoric for decades and it is a hard, cold, lonely world out there, then I doubt the Welsh will go "Me too...."
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)
That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union
However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
The fear is that Brexit makes the UK breakup more likely and that some of the more English nationalist Brexiteers aren’t too bothered about it.
It has increased the possibility of Scotland leaving but absolutely not Wales
However, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge not only before the HOC and HOL passes a section 30 agreement and by then the UK will be in a very different place to today
I expect Scotland to remain mainly because of the economic benefits but also there are many emotional and family ties
Don't be so sure about Wales. As a lifelong Unionist I would now consider voting for an independent Wales. Yes, I know Wales is an economic desert and we would be well and truly up a gum tree, but if the principle of heart over head worked once (for Brexit) it can again.
Once the Pandora's box of Scottish independence is opened, a United Ireland will follow, however the DUP might protest ( that arrangement might not be arrived at without some severe unpleasantness). Why then, shouldn't Wales then join the party?
Like I said, heart over head.
I think Welsh independence would be a very good thing to happen but I don't expect to see it.
I rather suspect we will end up like the Cricket Team - officially called "England and Wales" but everyone just says "England" until someone points out that Wales is there too.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
I would have chosen to stay in an appropriately reformed EU, which might have happened had history around eg the "European Constitution" been different eg more democratic.
Mr. City, York's a wonderful city. It'd be a shame to spoil it like that.
York is a spectacular beautiful historic city which is bloody impossible to easily get around. New York would need to be built to house both the federal parliament and the people to run it - and if you're building from scratch then you can do that anywhere.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
The boxed set of the World At War was one of my Christmas presents. Meanwhile I am working my way through Schitt's Creek; it makes me laugh and I could do with a laugh at the moment.
Are only Scots allowed to believe in independence? Why can't the English?
I believe collectivism is a bad thing. I think taking responsibility for yourselves is a good thing. How is that trolling?
I don't especially want Scotland to leave, but I certainly won't feel upset if they do. It is utterly bizarre how some people on here think the English should feel bad about this. Why? It's very simple, I believe in self-determination. There's nothing wrong about political unities breaking up if that's what the people want.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.
The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
Yes, a federal GB is definitely an idea whose time has come. As is a united Ireland. Let the Republic worry about and subsidise a million discontented northerners for once.
A federal GB would significantly reduce English dominance, as most policy areas national Parliaments would take control. So the Welsh, say, would no longer be forced to do things by the English dominance of the national Parliament.
I agree that reforming devolution should be next on the agenda.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
"Many on the remainer left accept the EU has its faults, but they fear that Brexit will be the start of something worse: slash and burn deregulation that will make Britain a nastier place to live.
This, though, assumes that Britain will have rightwing governments in perpetuity. It used to be the left who welcomed change and the right that wanted things to remain the same. The inability to envisage what a progressive government could do with Brexit represents a political role reversal and a colossal loss of nerve."
Much of it rings true to me.
Based on experience, it seems more realistic to assume that Britain will have right-wing governments in perpetuity than to assume the alternative.
My friend's neighbour had their parents come from England to stay for Christmas, against the Scottish rules. They have all gone down with Covid.
Oh dear, an ex colleague of mine broke the rules and went back to Madrid. His family now all have it, chances are it's the mutant version too. People are idiots, regardless of what the rules are.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
Thing is that when I talk to people about why they voted for Brexit, they can say something generic like "I don't like Europe telling us what to do", which when asked for an example quickly comes back to foreigners/migrants/asylum seekers. I wish it wasn't the case but it is.
You personally may not have voted Brexit because you wanted less foreigners - it wasn't why I voted leave either. But when you mop up all the different issues - even "sovereignty" - its too many foreigners taking our jobs. Vote to leave, less forrin, better jobs. It won't work like that, and people will get really upset about it, but that's reality.
"We want to take back control of our borders and have an Australian points-based migration system" is entirely about having fewer foreigners. Ending freedom of movement is about having fewer foreigners.
Surely, that depends how well things go for Scotland? If it turns out that the SNP has been peddling empty rhetoric for decades and it is a hard, cold, lonely world out there, then I doubt the Welsh will go "Me too...."
If Scotland goes, Welsh Labour will be left with two options
1. To stay in a larger country (EnglandnWales) which is now overwhelmingly Tory.
2. To be in complete charge of a small country (Wales) which they will be able to run.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
For a man who wrote so eloquently, and with assured authority about Trump's brand of nationalism during the US Election, you don't half write some b******* when it comes to Johnsonian Britain.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
I am? I remain nonplussed about leaving the EU. My beef is with us leaving things that aren't the EU - the EEA and CU. If that makes me an extremist to you then perhaps you are trolling after all.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
Ironically Nationalism is an unhealthy form of political collectivism. You’re confusing patriotism for nationalism.
Are only Scots allowed to believe in independence? Why can't the English?
I believe collectivism is a bad thing. I think taking responsibility for yourselves is a good thing. How is that trolling?
You described Wales a stone of fat.
No I did not. 🤦🏻♂️
You asked how England would be better, I explained that being thinner can be better - and said that applied to Wales as well as England.
In fact I expect Scotland and Wales would gain more from independence than England would. I expect Northern Ireland would gain more from Irish unification than either England or the Republic of Ireland would.
I think it would be a win/win for all parties, except maybe the Republic of Ireland.
Mr. Cwsc, that sort of partisan self-interest is (as well as being proven false by the everlasting Labour fiefdom that Scotland isn't) a design for political fragmentation all the way down, though.
Out of interest- in what way is Scotland economically viable and Wales not?
Scotland gets a smaller per capita net fiscal transfer from London and the SE than Wales or NI, or indeed most other English regions. It is also larger and has better internal transport links than Wales does and has an entirely separate legal and education system.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
Having examined some of RP's posting, I think we might describe his views as volatile.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
Are only Scots allowed to believe in independence? Why can't the English?
I believe collectivism is a bad thing. I think taking responsibility for yourselves is a good thing. How is that trolling?
You described Wales a stone of fat.
No I did not. 🤦🏻♂️
You asked how England would be better, I explained that being thinner can be better - and said that applied to Wales as well as England.
In fact I expect Scotland and Wales would gain more from independence than England would. I expect Northern Ireland would gain more from Irish unification than either England or the Republic of Ireland would.
I think it would be a win/win for all parties, except maybe the Republic of Ireland.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
The boxed set of the World At War was one of my Christmas presents. Meanwhile I am working my way through Schitt's Creek; it makes me laugh and I could do with a laugh at the moment.
I am working my way through Ronnie O Sullivan's three novels about Soho snooker/gangster life . Its not exactly Booker Prize material but i still feel incredulous he has actually written them. I love Ronnie for his snooker and individualism around snooker (his 147 in 5 mins and his fastest century break are out of this world -both on youtube) and I know he is also a good county standard long distance runner but writer of novels? They are not bad to read especially if you like the West End of London with a bit of low life action but did he really write them? Fair play if he did.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
Ironically Nationalism is an unhealthy form of political collectivism. You’re confusing patriotism for nationalism.
No I am not.
Patriotism is wanting the best for your country.
Nationalism is wanting your own country to be independently in control of its own laws and rules.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
I am? I remain nonplussed about leaving the EU. My beef is with us leaving things that aren't the EU - the EEA and CU. If that makes me an extremist to you then perhaps you are trolling after all.
To a true-believer everyone not of the same mind is an extremist for the other side.
Mr. Cwsc, that sort of partisan self-interest is (as well as being proven false by the everlasting Labour fiefdom that Scotland isn't) a design for political fragmentation all the way down, though.
I am not Welsh Labour.
I am merely indicating the horror that will be felt in Welsh Labour at Scottish Independence, and the likely consequence.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
Thing is that when I talk to people about why they voted for Brexit, they can say something generic like "I don't like Europe telling us what to do", which when asked for an example quickly comes back to foreigners/migrants/asylum seekers. I wish it wasn't the case but it is.
You personally may not have voted Brexit because you wanted less foreigners - it wasn't why I voted leave either. But when you mop up all the different issues - even "sovereignty" - its too many foreigners taking our jobs. Vote to leave, less forrin, better jobs. It won't work like that, and people will get really upset about it, but that's reality.
"We want to take back control of our borders and have an Australian points-based migration system" is entirely about having fewer foreigners. Ending freedom of movement is about having fewer foreigners.
Surely, that depends how well things go for Scotland? If it turns out that the SNP has been peddling empty rhetoric for decades and it is a hard, cold, lonely world out there, then I doubt the Welsh will go "Me too...."
If Scotland goes, Welsh Labour will be left with two options
1. To stay in a larger country (EnglandnWales) which is now overwhelmingly Tory.
2. To be in complete charge of a small country (Wales) which they will be able to run.
In the event of Independence, I believe the whole dynamic of politics will change in Wales. Plaid will become more relevant, both pre and post referendum. Labour will lose out, because they as usual will be late to the party, however the real losers will be the Welsh Tories whose irrelevance will be well and truly confirmed.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
For a man who wrote so eloquently, and with assured authority about Trump's brand of nationalism during the US Election, you don't half write some b******* when it comes to Johnsonian Britain.
Because Trumpism is not nationalism. They are two very different things.
Trumpism is flag waving extreme patriotism mixed with xenophobia, racism, ignorance and a denial of science. It has nothing to do with nationalism.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
You're wrong there Philip.
Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
How are the inevitable 20 miles queues of trucks on the M20 doing?
As and when hauliers are brave enough to start venturing across in any numbers we will find out.
Question - if we aren't expecting queues then why have we built vast truck parks and sequestered various roads for queuing purposes?
I see that today is about 10% of usual. Perhaps a good day to break in new arrangements.
It would appear that the EU are better prepared than we are so will be easier to break in arrangements. The simple practical reality though is than unless trucks just roll off the trains and boats at their end unimpeded there will be whopping queues in Kent. And the new arrangements stop them rolling off unimpeded.
On our side? Trucks entering Kent today need a Kent Access Permit. That we haven't brought in the systems to generate and manage the paperwork is entirely our own fault. Eventually though we will get there and the new computer system will exist and all the paperwork can be checked and unless trucks roll off the boats and trains unimpeded there will be queues in France.
The idea that the UK-EU border will be first in the world to be fully digital is a fantasy.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
For a man who wrote so eloquently, and with assured authority about Trump's brand of nationalism during the US Election, you don't half write some b******* when it comes to Johnsonian Britain.
Because Trumpism is not nationalism. They are two very different things.
Trumpism is flag waving extreme patriotism mixed with xenophobia, racism, ignorance and a denial of science. It has nothing to do with nationalism.
America First is the very distilled essence of nationalism.
Wales is a very different beast to Scotland. It's been part of the Kingdom of England (And successors) for the previous ~ 1000 years, and if you look back before that was never really completely unified - Deheubarth/Gwynedd being antecedents to annexation by England. It's got a few of it's own laws now, but they're a very recent (1990s !) construct and there's no natural legal heritage there in the same way Scotland has it's own fully formed legal system. Also economically I'd wager South Wales is more linked to Bristol and North Wales to the Northwest than each other. Politically it acts as a slightly more leftwing version of England and the nationalist party is confined to west Wales. I severely doubt it'll happen in my lifetime (I'm 39) whereas Scotland looks more likely than not.
Looked out my window. Nope, the sky hasn't fallen and if there are rampaging hordes of zombies they haven't made it as far as the village yet (or are currently obeying Nicola's strictures about lockdown).
2021 off to a better start than predicted. Here's hoping it continues.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
Thing is that when I talk to people about why they voted for Brexit, they can say something generic like "I don't like Europe telling us what to do", which when asked for an example quickly comes back to foreigners/migrants/asylum seekers. I wish it wasn't the case but it is.
You personally may not have voted Brexit because you wanted less foreigners - it wasn't why I voted leave either. But when you mop up all the different issues - even "sovereignty" - its too many foreigners taking our jobs. Vote to leave, less forrin, better jobs. It won't work like that, and people will get really upset about it, but that's reality.
"We want to take back control of our borders and have an Australian points-based migration system" is entirely about having fewer foreigners. Ending freedom of movement is about having fewer foreigners.
Completely fake news since immigration is one word to define the subject while sovereignty has half a dozen words.
If you actually use numbers then that was not the biggest issue. Have a look at what the real number one reason numerically was - for both Tory and Labour Leave voters as well as Leave voters overall.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
Having examined some of RP's posting, I think we might describe his views as volatile.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
My EFTA / EEA position hasn't changed throughout. We were inevitably going to pushed to the extremities of the two-speed Europe because we were not part of the Euro / Schengen / Army etc. So better to step off of our own volition than be flung off. Given the choice of what we now have or continued EU membership I'd stay in the EU - but that wasn't the only option.
That we are shouting about free trade having just left the free trade area is laughable. You can trade freely with the EU without being a member. We have chosen not to.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
For a man who wrote so eloquently, and with assured authority about Trump's brand of nationalism during the US Election, you don't half write some b******* when it comes to Johnsonian Britain.
Because Trumpism is not nationalism. They are two very different things.
Trumpism is flag waving extreme patriotism mixed with xenophobia, racism, ignorance and a denial of science. It has nothing to do with nationalism.
Your second paragraph is describing beautifully the Leave campaign, so I unreservedly withdraw my rude allusion to your analysis of Johnsonian Britain.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
You're wrong there Philip.
Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
Codswallop. You're projecting just because you don't like something. Nationalism is very good news much of the time.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
Having examined some of RP's posting, I think we might describe his views as volatile.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
My EFTA / EEA position hasn't changed throughout. We were inevitably going to pushed to the extremities of the two-speed Europe because we were not part of the Euro / Schengen / Army etc. So better to step off of our own volition than be flung off. Given the choice of what we now have or continued EU membership I'd stay in the EU - but that wasn't the only option.
That we are shouting about free trade having just left the free trade area is laughable. You can trade freely with the EU without being a member. We have chosen not to.
Really don't understand your last paragraph. We have chosen to trade freely with the EU without being a member. Whether that proves to be a good idea or not only time will tell.
This is a useful header because of the final para on Scotland. Philip frames the decision for Johnson (assuming the SNP get that Holyrood victory) as one between what is good for the country and what is good for him - for Johnson, I mean, not Philip, although it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes - the options being respectively granting and denying Sindy2. If we accept that framing, and I think I probably do, it becomes possible to predict in advance to around a 99.95% level of confidence what the outcome will be.
Yep. No Ref. Which makes the following 2 bets good value at current odds -
(i) Back no Sindy2 before 2025 at 2.1 (ii) Lay Sindy2 in 2022 at 4.8
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
You're wrong there Philip.
Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
Codswallop. You're projecting just because you don't like something. Nationalism is very good news much of the time.
This is where politicalbetting forum sometimes fall down - polarised fixed statements neither of which are actually more than opinion and not at all nuanced . Coupled with some insults or put downs- less of this in 2021 please!
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
You're wrong there Philip.
Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
Codswallop. You're projecting just because you don't like something. Nationalism is very good news much of the time.
By ‘much of the time’ do you mean that during the C20 nationalism hadn’t mired us in a world war 90% of the time.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.
The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.
If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
I love Wales! The challenge for Welsh nationalism is that legally Wales was part of England having been annexed by us long long ago. Thats why there isn't a Welsh Dragon on the Union Flag, you are represented by the English flag. Its shit, its stupid, and its being reversed.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
For a man who wrote so eloquently, and with assured authority about Trump's brand of nationalism during the US Election, you don't half write some b******* when it comes to Johnsonian Britain.
Because Trumpism is not nationalism. They are two very different things.
Trumpism is flag waving extreme patriotism mixed with xenophobia, racism, ignorance and a denial of science. It has nothing to do with nationalism.
America First is the very distilled essence of nationalism.
No it is not.
Plus there is nothing wrong with wanting to put America first (lower case letters) or wanting America to be great (lower case letters) but most of the hogwash that comes with MAGA or America First is not covered by those words. It is code for putting white Americans first. It is code for viewing black lives as not mattering. It is a code for many other stupid things.
Someone who really wanted to put America first, someone who really wanted America to be great, would be wanting that for all Americans. To show that black Americans are Americans whose lives do matter. Who want the best for their citizens. If that is what was meant by America first it wouldn't be toxic.
Just because someone hijacks words to mean different to what they actually mean doesn't make them true.
Not true for residents, you have, in Spain, until the end of June to get a Spanish license and if you haven’t got one now need to register your UK lifencebwith the police.
Surely, that depends how well things go for Scotland? If it turns out that the SNP has been peddling empty rhetoric for decades and it is a hard, cold, lonely world out there, then I doubt the Welsh will go "Me too...."
If Scotland goes, Welsh Labour will be left with two options
1. To stay in a larger country (EnglandnWales) which is now overwhelmingly Tory.
2. To be in complete charge of a small country (Wales) which they will be able to run.
In the event of Independence, I believe the whole dynamic of politics will change in Wales. Plaid will become more relevant, both pre and post referendum. Labour will lose out, because they as usual will be late to the party, however the real losers will be the Welsh Tories whose irrelevance will be well and truly confirmed.
I agree that the dynamic of Welsh politics will change. Probably a good thing, as the present parties are in a rut.
My strong suspicion is that the more Llafur look at being stuck in a long-term marriage with people like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the less and less they will like it.
Once Scotland has gone, the chance of a UK Labour Government is very low in the next few elections, IMO.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)
That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union
However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
The fear is that Brexit makes the UK breakup more likely and that some of the more English nationalist Brexiteers aren’t too bothered about it.
It has increased the possibility of Scotland leaving but absolutely not Wales
However, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge not only before the HOC and HOL passes a section 30 agreement and by then the UK will be in a very different place to today
I expect Scotland to remain mainly because of the economic benefits but also there are many emotional and family ties
Don't be so sure about Wales. As a lifelong Unionist I would now consider voting for an independent Wales. Yes, I know Wales is an economic desert and we would be well and truly up a gum tree, but if the principle of heart over head worked once (for Brexit) it can again.
Once the Pandora's box of Scottish independence is opened, a United Ireland will follow, however the DUP might protest ( that arrangement might not be arrived at without some severe unpleasantness). Why then, shouldn't Wales then join the party?
Like I said, heart over head.
I just cannot see Wales economically standing on its own let alone a great desire to do so
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)
That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union
However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
The fear is that Brexit makes the UK breakup more likely and that some of the more English nationalist Brexiteers aren’t too bothered about it.
It has increased the possibility of Scotland leaving but absolutely not Wales
However, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge not only before the HOC and HOL passes a section 30 agreement and by then the UK will be in a very different place to today
I expect Scotland to remain mainly because of the economic benefits but also there are many emotional and family ties
Don't be so sure about Wales. As a lifelong Unionist I would now consider voting for an independent Wales. Yes, I know Wales is an economic desert and we would be well and truly up a gum tree, but if the principle of heart over head worked once (for Brexit) it can again.
Once the Pandora's box of Scottish independence is opened, a United Ireland will follow, however the DUP might protest ( that arrangement might not be arrived at without some severe unpleasantness). Why then, shouldn't Wales then join the party?
Like I said, heart over head.
I think Welsh independence would be a very good thing to happen but I don't expect to see it.
I rather suspect we will end up like the Cricket Team - officially called "England and Wales" but everyone just says "England" until someone points out that Wales is there too.
There you go with your superior English nationalism. If attitudes are likely to accelerate the clamour for Welsh independence, you have just noted the reason which will sit at the top of the list.
Wales wasn't a single land the way the Scots were when Edward I was having a go at them.
The hereditary laws tended to fragmentation in Wales as every son inherited, promoting division and fratricide. Scotland did, very early on, have the same system but shifted to the English approach which helped them becoming more cohesive.
One of the sad things about Edward I's cackhanded attempts to attack Scotland was that the country was becoming more pro-English and then did a volte-face.
Of course, had the Maid of Norway lived things might be very different. Didn't help that the previous king rode his horse off a cliff in the night...
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)
That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union
However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
The fear is that Brexit makes the UK breakup more likely and that some of the more English nationalist Brexiteers aren’t too bothered about it.
It has increased the possibility of Scotland leaving but absolutely not Wales
However, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge not only before the HOC and HOL passes a section 30 agreement and by then the UK will be in a very different place to today
I expect Scotland to remain mainly because of the economic benefits but also there are many emotional and family ties
Don't be so sure about Wales. As a lifelong Unionist I would now consider voting for an independent Wales. Yes, I know Wales is an economic desert and we would be well and truly up a gum tree, but if the principle of heart over head worked once (for Brexit) it can again.
Once the Pandora's box of Scottish independence is opened, a United Ireland will follow, however the DUP might protest ( that arrangement might not be arrived at without some severe unpleasantness). Why then, shouldn't Wales then join the party?
Like I said, heart over head.
I think Welsh independence would be a very good thing to happen but I don't expect to see it.
I rather suspect we will end up like the Cricket Team - officially called "England and Wales" but everyone just says "England" until someone points out that Wales is there too.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
Having examined some of RP's posting, I think we might describe his views as volatile.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
My EFTA / EEA position hasn't changed throughout. We were inevitably going to pushed to the extremities of the two-speed Europe because we were not part of the Euro / Schengen / Army etc. So better to step off of our own volition than be flung off. Given the choice of what we now have or continued EU membership I'd stay in the EU - but that wasn't the only option.
That we are shouting about free trade having just left the free trade area is laughable. You can trade freely with the EU without being a member. We have chosen not to.
Really don't understand your last paragraph. We have chosen to trade freely with the EU without being a member. Whether that proves to be a good idea or not only time will tell.
No we haven't. Free trade is exactly that. We have stopped trading freely and have chosen to impose customs and standards barriers. Following a 26 step process to export shellfish is not free trade, not when the process was a handful of steps until yesterday.
Wales is a very different beast to Scotland. It's been part of the Kingdom of England (And successors) for the previous ~ 1000 years, and if you look back before that was never really completely unified - Deheubarth/Gwynedd being antecedents to annexation by England. It's got a few of it's own laws now, but they're a very recent (1990s !) construct and there's no natural legal heritage there in the same way Scotland has it's own fully formed legal system. Also economically I'd wager South Wales is more linked to Bristol and North Wales to the Northwest than each other. Politically it acts as a slightly more leftwing version of England and the nationalist party is confined to west Wales. I severely doubt it'll happen in my lifetime (I'm 39) whereas Scotland looks more likely than not.
Oh, come on. Wales was finally conquered about 700 years ago and intermittent revolts went on for some while after. It wasn't a voluntary process, as with Scotland (although bribery played it's part there) and culturally it remained distinct on many levels until the 19th C and the discovery of coal and exploitation of slate. The coalfields resulted in immigration and a change of culture, encouraged by a vicious campaign against the language, and indeed culture.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.
The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
We are going to be seeing this all year but particularly in the first 6 months. Many things that did not make the cut in the agreement will be resolved with co-operation and interdependence being established once again. Services are obviously the most important. Will the ECB be pressured into accepting that contracts booked in London are regulated by the FCA under the auspices of the BoE even when they relate to Euros and are for EU businesses? I think that they will.
My principal aspiration for 2021 (other than stopping the SNP from getting the absolute majority that both Philip and I have forecast) is that by the end of it we will have a much better relationship with Europe with many of the benefits of membership of the EU but none of the politics. Which is what I think about 80% of us always wanted.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)
That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union
However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
The fear is that Brexit makes the UK breakup more likely and that some of the more English nationalist Brexiteers aren’t too bothered about it.
It has increased the possibility of Scotland leaving but absolutely not Wales
However, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge not only before the HOC and HOL passes a section 30 agreement and by then the UK will be in a very different place to today
I expect Scotland to remain mainly because of the economic benefits but also there are many emotional and family ties
Don't be so sure about Wales. As a lifelong Unionist I would now consider voting for an independent Wales. Yes, I know Wales is an economic desert and we would be well and truly up a gum tree, but if the principle of heart over head worked once (for Brexit) it can again.
Once the Pandora's box of Scottish independence is opened, a United Ireland will follow, however the DUP might protest ( that arrangement might not be arrived at without some severe unpleasantness). Why then, shouldn't Wales then join the party?
Like I said, heart over head.
I just cannot see Wales economically standing on its own let alone a great desire to do so
This time a year and a day ago, I would have agreed with you. I don't (on both your counts) now.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
You're wrong there Philip.
Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
Codswallop. You're projecting just because you don't like something. Nationalism is very good news much of the time.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.
And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.
There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.
The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.
If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
I love Wales! The challenge for Welsh nationalism is that legally Wales was part of England having been annexed by us long long ago. Thats why there isn't a Welsh Dragon on the Union Flag, you are represented by the English flag. Its shit, its stupid, and its being reversed.
You have lost the plot and it is sad to see
I think I was clear that I lost the plot last year! I do have to take your perspective on it under advisement though. Its only a few days where your response to fishermen factually pointing to the damage done to their industry was to ask if they had read the report from a Tory think tank. There is a Real World and a Rhetoric World. I may have lost the plot but unlike you I can still see the difference between the two.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
Thing is that when I talk to people about why they voted for Brexit, they can say something generic like "I don't like Europe telling us what to do", which when asked for an example quickly comes back to foreigners/migrants/asylum seekers. I wish it wasn't the case but it is.
You personally may not have voted Brexit because you wanted less foreigners - it wasn't why I voted leave either. But when you mop up all the different issues - even "sovereignty" - its too many foreigners taking our jobs. Vote to leave, less forrin, better jobs. It won't work like that, and people will get really upset about it, but that's reality.
"We want to take back control of our borders and have an Australian points-based migration system" is entirely about having fewer foreigners. Ending freedom of movement is about having fewer foreigners.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
You're wrong there Philip.
Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
Codswallop. You're projecting just because you don't like something. Nationalism is very good news much of the time.
By ‘much of the time’ do you mean that during the C20 nationalism hadn’t mired us in a world war 90% of the time.
I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
War is not about nationalism.
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
You're wrong there Philip.
Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
Codswallop. You're projecting just because you don't like something. Nationalism is very good news much of the time.
Wales is a very different beast to Scotland. It's been part of the Kingdom of England (And successors) for the previous ~ 1000 years, and if you look back before that was never really completely unified - Deheubarth/Gwynedd being antecedents to annexation by England. It's got a few of it's own laws now, but they're a very recent (1990s !) construct and there's no natural legal heritage there in the same way Scotland has it's own fully formed legal system. Also economically I'd wager South Wales is more linked to Bristol and North Wales to the Northwest than each other. Politically it acts as a slightly more leftwing version of England and the nationalist party is confined to west Wales. I severely doubt it'll happen in my lifetime (I'm 39) whereas Scotland looks more likely than not.
It has only actually been part of England since 1536. Prior to that it was under the control of the two principalities of North and West Wales, and the Marcher Baronies. These were all subject to the English crown, but not to English laws or tax arrangements.
Even after 1536, with the exception of Monmouthshire (which was part of the Oxford court circuit) until 1837 it had its own legal processes based on Ludlow. So it retained a distinct identity for many centuries.
Surely, that depends how well things go for Scotland? If it turns out that the SNP has been peddling empty rhetoric for decades and it is a hard, cold, lonely world out there, then I doubt the Welsh will go "Me too...."
If Scotland goes, Welsh Labour will be left with two options
1. To stay in a larger country (EnglandnWales) which is now overwhelmingly Tory.
2. To be in complete charge of a small country (Wales) which they will be able to run.
In the event of Independence, I believe the whole dynamic of politics will change in Wales. Plaid will become more relevant, both pre and post referendum. Labour will lose out, because they as usual will be late to the party, however the real losers will be the Welsh Tories whose irrelevance will be well and truly confirmed.
I agree that the dynamic of Welsh politics will change. Probably a good thing, as the present parties are in a rut.
My strong suspicion is that the more Llafur look at being stuck in a long-term marriage with people like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the less and less they will like it.
Once Scotland has gone, the chance of a UK Labour Government is very low in the next few elections, IMO.
I agree.
Although I suspect the political dynamic in England will change over time too.
We, this side of Offa's Duke haven't the time to wait for that.
p.s. and cab drivers and pax have to wear masks. Most pax also sit in the back. I feel safer in an uber than I do walking around my local shops.
The anomaly is that cab rides are within the rules but that lifts from friends (unless they are in your support bubble) are not, despite that being less risky.
Nothing anomalous about that.
Taxi lifts are permitted but pax and driver must wear masks. Most pax sit in the back and, in the case of uber, they're hot on disinfectant. You can't readily ban taxi rides as they are essential for some people especially the elderly.
Getting into the front seat of a friend's car, without a mask I hasten to add, and then walking into a supermarket together is against the rules. And crazy behaviour.
There's no anomaly about it.
I think we are using the word anomaly to mean different things.
Well where I totally disagree with you is your contention that normal lifts are safer. No way. My friend's daughter and her driver friend were maskless and sitting together in the front. Which is how most people give lifts to one another.
A taxi driver, let's stick to uber, has to disinfect their car every morning. They have hand sanitiser for the passenger. Both driver and pax are required to wear masks and normally the pax sits in the back. When you book you have to acknowledge and accept these rules.
I've taken several uber rides during this virus when I've had to and have felt very safe.
My friend's daughter's behaviour is typical of what's going on.
In contrast, my anecdata is that mask observance has substantially improved in the last month or so, particularly in supermarkets.
And as I have said before, mask observance in both Italy and Germany back in September seemed way better than here - almost universal when required, and widespread even when not. Yet look where both those countries are now.
Which isn't to say that mask wearing isn't of some benefit - but it isn't the answer, nor even a significant part of it.
Wales wasn't a single land the way the Scots were when Edward I was having a go at them.
The hereditary laws tended to fragmentation in Wales as every son inherited, promoting division and fratricide. Scotland did, very early on, have the same system but shifted to the English approach which helped them becoming more cohesive.
So what? Ireland was a hotch-potch of Gaelic kingdoms.
In any case, countries exist now that never existed before.
Has Slovenia ever been an independent entity or "a single land" (as you put it)?
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
Having examined some of RP's posting, I think we might describe his views as volatile.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
My EFTA / EEA position hasn't changed throughout. We were inevitably going to pushed to the extremities of the two-speed Europe because we were not part of the Euro / Schengen / Army etc. So better to step off of our own volition than be flung off. Given the choice of what we now have or continued EU membership I'd stay in the EU - but that wasn't the only option.
That we are shouting about free trade having just left the free trade area is laughable. You can trade freely with the EU without being a member. We have chosen not to.
Really don't understand your last paragraph. We have chosen to trade freely with the EU without being a member. Whether that proves to be a good idea or not only time will tell.
No we haven't. Free trade is exactly that. We have stopped trading freely and have chosen to impose customs and standards barriers. Following a 26 step process to export shellfish is not free trade, not when the process was a handful of steps until yesterday.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
Having examined some of RP's posting, I think we might describe his views as volatile.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
My EFTA / EEA position hasn't changed throughout. We were inevitably going to pushed to the extremities of the two-speed Europe because we were not part of the Euro / Schengen / Army etc. So better to step off of our own volition than be flung off. Given the choice of what we now have or continued EU membership I'd stay in the EU - but that wasn't the only option.
That we are shouting about free trade having just left the free trade area is laughable. You can trade freely with the EU without being a member. We have chosen not to.
Really don't understand your last paragraph. We have chosen to trade freely with the EU without being a member. Whether that proves to be a good idea or not only time will tell.
No we haven't. Free trade is exactly that. We have stopped trading freely and have chosen to impose customs and standards barriers. Following a 26 step process to export shellfish is not free trade, not when the process was a handful of steps until yesterday.
In goods we have the freest trade we could have without being members. No tariffs, no quotas, limited rules of origin and a LPF of sorts. Of course that trade was fractionally freer when we were members but that is not what you said.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
Having examined some of RP's posting, I think we might describe his views as volatile.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
My EFTA / EEA position hasn't changed throughout. We were inevitably going to pushed to the extremities of the two-speed Europe because we were not part of the Euro / Schengen / Army etc. So better to step off of our own volition than be flung off. Given the choice of what we now have or continued EU membership I'd stay in the EU - but that wasn't the only option.
That we are shouting about free trade having just left the free trade area is laughable. You can trade freely with the EU without being a member. We have chosen not to.
Really don't understand your last paragraph. We have chosen to trade freely with the EU without being a member. Whether that proves to be a good idea or not only time will tell.
No we haven't. Free trade is exactly that. We have stopped trading freely and have chosen to impose customs and standards barriers. Following a 26 step process to export shellfish is not free trade, not when the process was a handful of steps until yesterday.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
Having examined some of RP's posting, I think we might describe his views as volatile.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
My EFTA / EEA position hasn't changed throughout. We were inevitably going to pushed to the extremities of the two-speed Europe because we were not part of the Euro / Schengen / Army etc. So better to step off of our own volition than be flung off. Given the choice of what we now have or continued EU membership I'd stay in the EU - but that wasn't the only option.
That we are shouting about free trade having just left the free trade area is laughable. You can trade freely with the EU without being a member. We have chosen not to.
Really don't understand your last paragraph. We have chosen to trade freely with the EU without being a member. Whether that proves to be a good idea or not only time will tell.
No we haven't. Free trade is exactly that. We have stopped trading freely and have chosen to impose customs and standards barriers. Following a 26 step process to export shellfish is not free trade, not when the process was a handful of steps until yesterday.
In goods we have the freest trade we could have without being members. No tariffs, no quotas, limited rules of origin and a LPF of sorts. Of course that trade was fractionally freer when we were members but that is not what you said.
Precisely.
Sorry Mr Tusk but we have 100% picked the cherries that we wanted.
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)
That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union
However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
The fear is that Brexit makes the UK breakup more likely and that some of the more English nationalist Brexiteers aren’t too bothered about it.
It has increased the possibility of Scotland leaving but absolutely not Wales
However, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge not only before the HOC and HOL passes a section 30 agreement and by then the UK will be in a very different place to today
I expect Scotland to remain mainly because of the economic benefits but also there are many emotional and family ties
Don't be so sure about Wales. As a lifelong Unionist I would now consider voting for an independent Wales. Yes, I know Wales is an economic desert and we would be well and truly up a gum tree, but if the principle of heart over head worked once (for Brexit) it can again.
Once the Pandora's box of Scottish independence is opened, a United Ireland will follow, however the DUP might protest ( that arrangement might not be arrived at without some severe unpleasantness). Why then, shouldn't Wales then join the party?
Like I said, heart over head.
I just cannot see Wales economically standing on its own let alone a great desire to do so
I suspect it would be fine Big_G, after a period of adjustment.
If Iceland can thrive in the middle of the north Atlantic with a population of 300k, I am sure Wales can with 3m people, located as it is
Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.
I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year. And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister. And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.
I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.
England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.
Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.
People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
TBH I think you need to look in a different mirror.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
Let's see what happens.
The thing that is really odd is that RP voted for Brexit from memory - but now he's as arch a Europhile extremist as Scott or williamglenn.
Having examined some of RP's posting, I think we might describe his views as volatile.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
My EFTA / EEA position hasn't changed throughout. We were inevitably going to pushed to the extremities of the two-speed Europe because we were not part of the Euro / Schengen / Army etc. So better to step off of our own volition than be flung off. Given the choice of what we now have or continued EU membership I'd stay in the EU - but that wasn't the only option.
That we are shouting about free trade having just left the free trade area is laughable. You can trade freely with the EU without being a member. We have chosen not to.
Really don't understand your last paragraph. We have chosen to trade freely with the EU without being a member. Whether that proves to be a good idea or not only time will tell.
Actually we haven't and RP is absolutely right on this. We have chosen to trade freely in certain specific areas. Had we chosen the EFTA/EEA route it would have been far more comprehensive. The only difference between RP and myself is I would still have chosen this over staying in. In the end trade, as he mentions, is only one small part of the EU project and the rest of it negates value we get from membership.
Comments
Question - if we aren't expecting queues then why have we built vast truck parks and sequestered various roads for queuing purposes?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-02/germany-seeks-covid-vaccine-doses-beyond-eu-deal-allocation
I do care. I wouldn't be saying it was a good thing if I didn't care - it is because I care that I consider it to be good.
Maybe York could be a good place for an English Parliament.
I would also like a more democratic second chamber with PR.
However do not expect any of this changes as governments usually say its not a priority.
If Scotland leaves, Wales will not be staying.
Plus the French regularly have paid silly buggers and so sequestered roads have existed for thirty years. So may as well be prepared for when they're needed again.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/the-left-brexit-economic-uk
"Many on the remainer left accept the EU has its faults, but they fear that Brexit will be the start of something worse: slash and burn deregulation that will make Britain a nastier place to live.
This, though, assumes that Britain will have rightwing governments in perpetuity. It used to be the left who welcomed change and the right that wanted things to remain the same. The inability to envisage what a progressive government could do with Brexit represents a political role reversal and a colossal loss of nerve."
Much of it rings true to me.
All extremes can go wrong when people take things too far. But the end result of independence is always (and has always been) that a country either needs to take responsibility for itself, or fail. Sink or swim.
About 800 HGVs are expected to use the Port of Dover and the Channel Tunnel today as the UK’s new trading relationship with the European Union is introduced. Up to 10,000 trucks a day would usually make the crossing between Kent and Calais.
Edit: strictly speaking I once had a case in the Bristol Mercantile Court. No closer though.
It means no-one is trading.
I rather suspect we will end up like the Cricket Team - officially called "England and Wales" but everyone just says "England" until someone points out that Wales is there too.
Brexit is not to do with expelling the "forrin". It is to do with not being controlled by an unaccountable, demonstrably irreformable EU.
Having a headspace dominated by 'EU' (not "Europe") is far more parochial than looking more widely.
I would have chosen to stay in an appropriately reformed EU, which might have happened had history around eg the "European Constitution" been different eg more democratic.
Sadly not to be, so we are better off out.
Let's see what happens.
I believe collectivism is a bad thing. I think taking responsibility for yourselves is a good thing. How is that trolling?
However much the likes of HYUFD will disclaim a desire for Welsh independence by rightly claiming we voted for Brexit will count for nothing.
The ghost of Gwynfor Evans is stirring from his slumber! (He is dead isn't he?).
Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.
Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.
You personally may not have voted Brexit because you wanted less foreigners - it wasn't why I voted leave either. But when you mop up all the different issues - even "sovereignty" - its too many foreigners taking our jobs. Vote to leave, less forrin, better jobs. It won't work like that, and people will get really upset about it, but that's reality.
"We want to take back control of our borders and have an Australian points-based migration system" is entirely about having fewer foreigners. Ending freedom of movement is about having fewer foreigners.
1. To stay in a larger country (EnglandnWales) which is now overwhelmingly Tory.
2. To be in complete charge of a small country (Wales) which they will be able to run.
You asked how England would be better, I explained that being thinner can be better - and said that applied to Wales as well as England.
In fact I expect Scotland and Wales would gain more from independence than England would. I expect Northern Ireland would gain more from Irish unification than either England or the Republic of Ireland would.
I think it would be a win/win for all parties, except maybe the Republic of Ireland.
(My recollection like you is he had a fit about the Remain campaign, and voted Leave).
Patriotism is wanting the best for your country.
Nationalism is wanting your own country to be independently in control of its own laws and rules.
Neither require a jingoistic desire for war.
(See also Momentum)
I am merely indicating the horror that will be felt in Welsh Labour at Scottish Independence, and the likely consequence.
Trumpism is flag waving extreme patriotism mixed with xenophobia, racism, ignorance and a denial of science. It has nothing to do with nationalism.
You're wrong there Philip.
Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
Another alleged barrier evaporating. I think. Subject to detail.
https://twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1344712385072918532
And so to brunch.
On our side? Trucks entering Kent today need a Kent Access Permit. That we haven't brought in the systems to generate and manage the paperwork is entirely our own fault. Eventually though we will get there and the new computer system will exist and all the paperwork can be checked and unless trucks roll off the boats and trains unimpeded there will be queues in France.
The idea that the UK-EU border will be first in the world to be fully digital is a fantasy.
It's got a few of it's own laws now, but they're a very recent (1990s !) construct and there's no natural legal heritage there in the same way Scotland has it's own fully formed legal system.
Also economically I'd wager South Wales is more linked to Bristol and North Wales to the Northwest than each other. Politically it acts as a slightly more leftwing version of England and the nationalist party is confined to west Wales.
I severely doubt it'll happen in my lifetime (I'm 39) whereas Scotland looks more likely than not.
2021 off to a better start than predicted. Here's hoping it continues.
If you actually use numbers then that was not the biggest issue. Have a look at what the real number one reason numerically was - for both Tory and Labour Leave voters as well as Leave voters overall.
That we are shouting about free trade having just left the free trade area is laughable. You can trade freely with the EU without being a member. We have chosen not to.
Yep. No Ref. Which makes the following 2 bets good value at current odds -
(i) Back no Sindy2 before 2025 at 2.1
(ii) Lay Sindy2 in 2022 at 4.8
I prefer (ii).
Plus there is nothing wrong with wanting to put America first (lower case letters) or wanting America to be great (lower case letters) but most of the hogwash that comes with MAGA or America First is not covered by those words. It is code for putting white Americans first. It is code for viewing black lives as not mattering. It is a code for many other stupid things.
Someone who really wanted to put America first, someone who really wanted America to be great, would be wanting that for all Americans. To show that black Americans are Americans whose lives do matter. Who want the best for their citizens. If that is what was meant by America first it wouldn't be toxic.
Just because someone hijacks words to mean different to what they actually mean doesn't make them true.
My strong suspicion is that the more Llafur look at being stuck in a long-term marriage with people like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the less and less they will like it.
Once Scotland has gone, the chance of a UK Labour Government is very low in the next few elections, IMO.
The hereditary laws tended to fragmentation in Wales as every son inherited, promoting division and fratricide. Scotland did, very early on, have the same system but shifted to the English approach which helped them becoming more cohesive.
One of the sad things about Edward I's cackhanded attempts to attack Scotland was that the country was becoming more pro-English and then did a volte-face.
Of course, had the Maid of Norway lived things might be very different. Didn't help that the previous king rode his horse off a cliff in the night...
https://twitter.com/i/status/1344723741465522178
My principal aspiration for 2021 (other than stopping the SNP from getting the absolute majority that both Philip and I have forecast) is that by the end of it we will have a much better relationship with Europe with many of the benefits of membership of the EU but none of the politics. Which is what I think about 80% of us always wanted.
...to balance against, say, two World Wars.
Fish - you'll be giving them to the EU as the price of rejoining.
So it is already down to the rusty water and tartan tat.....
Even after 1536, with the exception of Monmouthshire (which was part of the Oxford court circuit) until 1837 it had its own legal processes based on Ludlow. So it retained a distinct identity for many centuries.
https://twitter.com/ExBatsforEver/status/1344946890023067648?s=19
Although I suspect the political dynamic in England will change over time too.
We, this side of Offa's Duke haven't the time to wait for that.
Which isn't to say that mask wearing isn't of some benefit - but it isn't the answer, nor even a significant part of it.
In any case, countries exist now that never existed before.
Has Slovenia ever been an independent entity or "a single land" (as you put it)?
Until it became one in 1991.
Sorry Mr Tusk but we have 100% picked the cherries that we wanted.
If Iceland can thrive in the middle of the north Atlantic with a population of 300k, I am sure Wales can with 3m people, located as it is