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Predictions for 2021 from the man who tipped Sunak as next PM at 200/1 – politicalbetting.com

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  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    Apart from its economic non viability, which would hold the republic back for years.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.
    Theses nationalist independence movements are not benign, they divide people and foster conflict. We have nothing to gain from borders being erected.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    Yes, the fate of England is to find out what a quarter of the world once knew: What it is like to be ruled by the English.
  • Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    edited January 2021
    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Good morning, and happy new year.

    I have been waking up at 0630 all my working life, and my internal alarm clock does that at weekends and Bank holidays too.

    Grim article in the Atlantic on the new variant covid. This bit on the maths gave me a shock.

    "To understand the difference between exponential and linear risks, consider an example put forth by Adam Kucharski, a professor at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine who focuses on mathematical analyses of infectious-disease outbreaks. Kucharski compares a 50 percent increase in virus lethality to a 50 percent increase in virus transmissibility. Take a virus reproduction rate of about 1.1 and an infection fatality risk of 0.8 percent and imagine 10,000 active infections—a plausible scenario for many European cities, as Kucharski notes. As things stand, with those numbers, we’d expect 129 deaths in a month. If the fatality rate increased by 50 percent, that would lead to 193 deaths. In contrast, a 50 percent increase in transmissibility would lead to a whopping 978 deaths in just one month—assuming, in both scenarios, a six-day infection-generation time."

    https://twitter.com/AdrienneLaF/status/1344708609473728514?s=19

    The factoid that some people seem to super-spread to numerous others, yet most carriers don't spread much at all, crops up often in articles like this, yet we don't seem to be much wiser as to why this is?
    If the vaccine reduces transmission we should try to get those people first...


    I don't think @Mysticrose is right on a change in aerosol spread. The physical change in the virus is not enough for that. I think though that aerosolisation has been generally under recognised as a form of spread.
    Yep. I didn't want to be contentious by proposing that the original virus also readily spreads outdoors. But I'm pretty convinced it does.
    Most of the evidence suggests to the contrary.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Jonathan said:



    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.
    Theses nationalist independence movements are not benign, they divide people and foster conflict. We have nothing to gain from borders being erected.
    I agree. I think nationalism is something that I would like to see obsolete, though would distinguish it from patriotism, a rather more benign sentiment.

    Nonetheless, if it is the democratic will it should not be denied. A Union is acceptable, but an Empire not.
  • felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    The danger for that subset of Scots nationalists who feel Scotland is inevitably dominated by England because of population size is that that within the EU, Scotland will still be a minnow. France and Italy are as big as England; Germany bigger. Scotland will be a long way down the list -- for those Scots who believe this is the important factor. Other nationalists have different priorities, of course.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_population
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:



    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.
    Theses nationalist independence movements are not benign, they divide people and foster conflict. We have nothing to gain from borders being erected.
    I agree. I think nationalism is something that I would like to see obsolete, though would distinguish it from patriotism, a rather more benign sentiment.

    Nonetheless, if it is the democratic will it should not be denied. A Union is acceptable, but an Empire not.
    Two or more antagonistic nations is unacceptable. Do not doubt this is about nationalism not patriotism. People seek to divide us.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    nichomar said:



    Apart from its economic non viability, which would hold the republic back for years.

    What do you mean by "non viability"? An unoccupied Ireland would be a failed state?

  • Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.

    Yes, nationalism is very specifically about blaming others for your problems. It is an entirely destructive political philosophy. The fall-out from the break-up of the UK will be far more consequential, long-lasting unpleasant than anything Brexit delivers.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    All change brings danger and I would much prefer a Federal solution to the divisions which are there. I'm not sure that polling shows that anger is a feature of the english attitude to the break-up of the UK so much as resignation tinged with some sadness. I do witness a fair bit of anger and petulance from some our Scottish posters on here - I doubt if even that reflects accurately the popular mood in Scotland. Even the frecent polling suggests they are pretty divided. I think there is much anger in all of the UK about the events of the past 5 years. Defeat of an idea is a bitter pill to swallow. Nursing the anger is I'm sure not the way forward.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    nichomar said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    Apart from its economic non viability, which would hold the republic back for years.
    A united ireland in the EU would do quite well I think. I certainly hope so.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947

    Fuck off, 2020. And take your shitty Covid with you.....

    In fairness to 2020, it was actually 2019's spawn.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    England needs their water
  • felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.

    Yes, nationalism is very specifically about blaming others for your problems. It is an entirely destructive political philosophy. The fall-out from the break-up of the UK will be far more consequential, long-lasting unpleasant than anything Brexit delivers.
    You are very naive to believe that a successful independence movement would end antagonism between nationalists. If anything the blame would escalate.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Maybe 12-18 months to defeat the virus and start to repair the economy should be enough for any politician. Pushing independence and other crazy ideas before the current situation is resolved is madness.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    The danger for that subset of Scots nationalists who feel Scotland is inevitably dominated by England because of population size is that that within the EU, Scotland will still be a minnow. France and Italy are as big as England; Germany bigger. Scotland will be a long way down the list -- for those Scots who believe this is the important factor. Other nationalists have different priorities, of course.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_population
    I fear we are just going to get a rehash of the brexit debate with the SNP. Then it'll be an almighty shock if Scotland does vote for indy
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    Fishing said:

    Fuck off, 2020. And take your shitty Covid with you.....

    In fairness to 2020, it was actually 2019's spawn.
    Not in this country. It wasn't a thing until 2020. Or so we are told....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    I don't know how some remainers on here will cope should there be a second Scottish Independence referendum and they vote to remain in the UK.
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    All change brings danger and I would much prefer a Federal solution to the divisions which are there. I'm not sure that polling shows that anger is a feature of the english attitude to the break-up of the UK so much as resignation tinged with some sadness. I do witness a fair bit of anger and petulance from some our Scottish posters on here - I doubt if even that reflects accurately the popular mood in Scotland. Even the frecent polling suggests they are pretty divided. I think there is much anger in all of the UK about the events of the past 5 years. Defeat of an idea is a bitter pill to swallow. Nursing the anger is I'm sure not the way forward.

    The break-up of the UK would be an unprecedented international humiliation for whichever government was in power when it happened. I have no doubt that most English people would be disappointed but not too worried, but it doesn't require that many to feel differently for a whole lot of very bad things to happen - especially if such people control the levers of power.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    rcs1000 said:

    Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska has opined on the whole 'election fraud' issue:

    https://www.facebook.com/SenatorSasse/posts/3517705981660655

    Devastating and thorough. No fan of Trump, as he freely admits to not even voting for him, but still tries to lay out for Trumpicans the facts.

    Particularly on point is the discrepancy between what Trump claims in public and what he claims in court, and the ridiculousness of making allegations and using the fscr of those allegations as a reason to blow up the whole system on the pretext of investigating minor issues.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    tlg86 said:

    I don't know how some remainers on here will cope should there be a second Scottish Independence referendum and they vote to remain in the UK.

    Massive relief.
  • tlg86 said:

    I don't know how some remainers on here will cope should there be a second Scottish Independence referendum and they vote to remain in the UK.

    What's a remainer?

  • felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    All change brings danger and I would much prefer a Federal solution to the divisions which are there. I'm not sure that polling shows that anger is a feature of the english attitude to the break-up of the UK so much as resignation tinged with some sadness. I do witness a fair bit of anger and petulance from some our Scottish posters on here - I doubt if even that reflects accurately the popular mood in Scotland. Even the frecent polling suggests they are pretty divided. I think there is much anger in all of the UK about the events of the past 5 years. Defeat of an idea is a bitter pill to swallow. Nursing the anger is I'm sure not the way forward.
    I have been a critic of the UK and a federalist advocate since doing A level politics in the mid 90s. Its been increasingly clear that the half-baked fixes that hold the UK together don't really work any more so the solution was to let the nations do their own thing - had this been done earlier perhaps Ireland would never have become partitioned.

    However, that ship has sailed. I don't think the UK can be saved at all because it has ceased to function as a representative democratic state if you aren't in England.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.

    Yes, nationalism is very specifically about blaming others for your problems. It is an entirely destructive political philosophy. The fall-out from the break-up of the UK will be far more consequential, long-lasting unpleasant than anything Brexit delivers.
    You are very naive to believe that a successful independence movement would end antagonism between nationalists. If anything the blame would escalate.

    Read my post again!

  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    Yes, a federal GB is definitely an idea whose time has come. As is a united Ireland. Let the Republic worry about and subsidise a million discontented northerners for once.

    A federal GB would significantly reduce English dominance, as most policy areas national Parliaments would take control. So the Welsh, say, would no longer be forced to do things by the English dominance of the national Parliament.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    The danger for that subset of Scots nationalists who feel Scotland is inevitably dominated by England because of population size is that that within the EU, Scotland will still be a minnow. France and Italy are as big as England; Germany bigger. Scotland will be a long way down the list -- for those Scots who believe this is the important factor. Other nationalists have different priorities, of course.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_population
    I fear we are just going to get a rehash of the brexit debate with the SNP. Then it'll be an almighty shock if Scotland does vote for indy
    I'm with you on the first sentence. That's why I disagree on the second.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    Agreed.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    The danger for that subset of Scots nationalists who feel Scotland is inevitably dominated by England because of population size is that that within the EU, Scotland will still be a minnow. France and Italy are as big as England; Germany bigger. Scotland will be a long way down the list -- for those Scots who believe this is the important factor. Other nationalists have different priorities, of course.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_population
    I fear we are just going to get a rehash of the brexit debate with the SNP. Then it'll be an almighty shock if Scotland does vote for indy
    It will be a tough debate but hardly an almighty shock. I think the RoUK will be resigned to it more than angry.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    The danger for that subset of Scots nationalists who feel Scotland is inevitably dominated by England because of population size is that that within the EU, Scotland will still be a minnow. France and Italy are as big as England; Germany bigger. Scotland will be a long way down the list -- for those Scots who believe this is the important factor. Other nationalists have different priorities, of course.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_population
    I fear we are just going to get a rehash of the brexit debate with the SNP. Then it'll be an almighty shock if Scotland does vote for indy
    It will be a tough debate but hardly an almighty shock. I think the RoUK will be resigned to it more than angry.
    I think more of a shock to the population of Scotland. It'll be a tough old slog with many years of difficulty
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    tlg86 said:

    I don't know how some remainers on here will cope should there be a second Scottish Independence referendum and they vote to remain in the UK.

    What's a remainer?

    We're Rejoiners now. Sadly!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    edited January 2021

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    No, and anyone suggesting that would happen is being pretty dishonest. It would be horribly emotional and bitter. If people think it worth it in the long term despite that, thats fine, but theres no reason to think itd be less fraught than the Brexit split and many reasons it would be more so.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    nichomar said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    England needs their water
    It might be one way for the Welsh to make a few euros I suppose - unless they want to drink it all themselves.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. (Miss? Apologies, there are certain people (flowers and the colour blue) I keep forgetting) Rose, generally the elderly need less sleep than the young.

    Ages ago I spent a weekend with my grandpa and his wife and was surprised that the getting up time on an off-day was so early. Maybe around six?

    On the other hand, the salmon for breakfast was an unexpected bonus.

    This guy

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Sleep-Science-Dreams/dp/0141983760

    thinks they desperately *need* it, they just aren't very good at getting it.

    He overeggs his points but is convincing about dsome of them. And he points out the worrying coincidence that Thatcher and Reagan were both famous both for getting by on 4 hours a night and for ending up entirely demented.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    edited January 2021
    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    I'm somewhat confused by his 'I'll reject the nasty judgementalness of X by being really nastily judgemental of X' approach.

    I'm getting a very contradictory message from that. Its certainly bold in attempting to claim the moral high ground whilst acting the opposite.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    IshmaelZ said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. (Miss? Apologies, there are certain people (flowers and the colour blue) I keep forgetting) Rose, generally the elderly need less sleep than the young.

    Ages ago I spent a weekend with my grandpa and his wife and was surprised that the getting up time on an off-day was so early. Maybe around six?

    On the other hand, the salmon for breakfast was an unexpected bonus.

    This guy

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Sleep-Science-Dreams/dp/0141983760

    thinks they desperately *need* it, they just aren't very good at getting it.

    He overeggs his points but is convincing about dsome of them. And he points out the worrying coincidence that Thatcher and Reagan were both famous both for getting by on 4 hours a night and for ending up entirely demented.
    Willy waving about bedtimes is a bit childish.
  • p.s. and cab drivers and pax have to wear masks. Most pax also sit in the back. I feel safer in an uber than I do walking around my local shops.

    The anomaly is that cab rides are within the rules but that lifts from friends (unless they are in your support bubble) are not, despite that being less risky.
    Nothing anomalous about that.

    Taxi lifts are permitted but pax and driver must wear masks. Most pax sit in the back and, in the case of uber, they're hot on disinfectant. You can't readily ban taxi rides as they are essential for some people especially the elderly.

    Getting into the front seat of a friend's car, without a mask I hasten to add, and then walking into a supermarket together is against the rules. And crazy behaviour.

    There's no anomaly about it.
    I think we are using the word anomaly to mean different things.
    Well where I totally disagree with you is your contention that normal lifts are safer. No way. My friend's daughter and her driver friend were maskless and sitting together in the front. Which is how most people give lifts to one another.

    A taxi driver, let's stick to uber, has to disinfect their car every morning. They have hand sanitiser for the passenger. Both driver and pax are required to wear masks and normally the pax sits in the back. When you book you have to acknowledge and accept these rules.

    I've taken several uber rides during this virus when I've had to and have felt very safe.

    My friend's daughter's behaviour is typical of what's going on.
    That is why I'd rather the guidelines addressed this anomaly and said car passengers from different households should be masked (and perhaps windows slightly open, and not chat or sing along to the radio).

    (Anecdata: I get a lift once a week and cabs the other six days, and wear a mask in both cases.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    tlg86 said:

    I don't know how some remainers on here will cope should there be a second Scottish Independence referendum and they vote to remain in the UK.

    What's a remainer?

    We're Rejoiners now. Sadly!
    You can get the ball rolling on that.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    All change brings danger and I would much prefer a Federal solution to the divisions which are there. I'm not sure that polling shows that anger is a feature of the english attitude to the break-up of the UK so much as resignation tinged with some sadness. I do witness a fair bit of anger and petulance from some our Scottish posters on here - I doubt if even that reflects accurately the popular mood in Scotland. Even the frecent polling suggests they are pretty divided. I think there is much anger in all of the UK about the events of the past 5 years. Defeat of an idea is a bitter pill to swallow. Nursing the anger is I'm sure not the way forward.

    The break-up of the UK would be an unprecedented international humiliation for whichever government was in power when it happened. I have no doubt that most English people would be disappointed but not too worried, but it doesn't require that many to feel differently for a whole lot of very bad things to happen - especially if such people control the levers of power.
    Not much idea what you mean wrt 'bad things' - a democratic vote would be respected I think. The worst of the economic consequences would occur to those nations who leave unless they come to terms with the RoUK - no doubt they can look to the EU for some succour. As I say it is not my preferred outcome but the blame would be shared just as it is with Brexit.
  • felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.

    There is more than one England. I am English and do not recognise what you say about my countrymen in me, my family, my friends or my work colleagues. Yes, the nativist reactionaries and bigots currently hold sway, but that does not have to be forever. In fact, I am confident it will not be. That's why I am not giving up on this place. It belongs to me as much as it does to Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson.
    Well said
  • felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    That is a very sad rant
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Good morning, and happy new year.

    I have been waking up at 0630 all my working life, and my internal alarm clock does that at weekends and Bank holidays too.

    Grim article in the Atlantic on the new variant covid. This bit on the maths gave me a shock.

    "To understand the difference between exponential and linear risks, consider an example put forth by Adam Kucharski, a professor at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine who focuses on mathematical analyses of infectious-disease outbreaks. Kucharski compares a 50 percent increase in virus lethality to a 50 percent increase in virus transmissibility. Take a virus reproduction rate of about 1.1 and an infection fatality risk of 0.8 percent and imagine 10,000 active infections—a plausible scenario for many European cities, as Kucharski notes. As things stand, with those numbers, we’d expect 129 deaths in a month. If the fatality rate increased by 50 percent, that would lead to 193 deaths. In contrast, a 50 percent increase in transmissibility would lead to a whopping 978 deaths in just one month—assuming, in both scenarios, a six-day infection-generation time."

    https://twitter.com/AdrienneLaF/status/1344708609473728514?s=19

    Year 2 of the pandemic is going to be fucking lit. We'll look back on 2020 as the good old days.
    I think Q1 will be very bad indeed. I do have concerns about using the Pfizer vaccine outside its established dosage, but for the AZN it seems reasonable.

    There are enough vaccine sceptics, and will be enough breakthrough cases that normality will not be back until at least the summer.

    Look at these examples from the USA and despair.

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1344798298872406019?s=19

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1344896068752961536?s=19
    I can understand a certain degree of caution on the vaccines from people, without being full blown anti vaxxers, but sabotaging supplies? Bonkers.
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
  • felix said:

    nichomar said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    England needs their water
    It might be one way for the Welsh to make a few euros I suppose - unless they want to drink it all themselves.
    Wales is going nowhere
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    edited January 2021
    Jonathan said:

    The hypocrisy in an IndyRef 2 vote will be breathtaking. English Brexiteers will be banging on about how cooperation is essential to the economy and SNP will be talking about how critical it is for Scotland to have control of its policy.

    It's not inherently wrong to think one union works well and the other doesn't but I'd agree that the actual arguments will be less nuanced and so be very hypocritical all around.

    Itll be a depressing and horrendous event regardless of outcome, but sadly necessary.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    tlg86 said:

    I don't know how some remainers on here will cope should there be a second Scottish Independence referendum and they vote to remain in the UK.

    If they freely choose to do so, I would be delighted. It makes deposing the Tories a lot easier.

    Can't see it myself though.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.

    There is more than one England. I am English and do not recognise what you say about my countrymen in me, my family, my friends or my work colleagues. Yes, the nativist reactionaries and bigots currently hold sway, but that does not have to be forever. In fact, I am confident it will not be. That's why I am not giving up on this place. It belongs to me as much as it does to Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson.
    Fight the good fight.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Jonathan said:

    The hypocrisy in an IndyRef 2 vote will be breathtaking. English Brexiteers will be banging on about how cooperation is essential to the economy and SNP will be talking about how critical it is for Scotland to have control of its policy.

    Different arguments, though. The Scots can make a much better case about losing and regaining SOVRANTEE than the UK ever could.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    edited January 2021
    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)

    That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I don't know how some remainers on here will cope should there be a second Scottish Independence referendum and they vote to remain in the UK.

    If they freely choose to do so, I would be delighted. It makes deposing the Tories a lot easier.

    Can't see it myself though.
    I can't either but I also find it difficult to deny that some people do act as though they want it as punishment rather than support it as a goal in itself, as proof of a general fatalistic world view.
  • felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.

    There is more than one England. I am English and do not recognise what you say about my countrymen in me, my family, my friends or my work colleagues. Yes, the nativist reactionaries and bigots currently hold sway, but that does not have to be forever. In fact, I am confident it will not be. That's why I am not giving up on this place. It belongs to me as much as it does to Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson.
    I don't recognise them in my immediate family either. But as you have just said, it is there. That could change over time and I hope that it does. But I don't have to choose to raise my family in this environment - other countries are available.

    As to the comment up thread about responding to my rejecting nasty and judgemental people by being nasty and judgemental, there is a difference. Far too many people think that a long list of people are doing them wrong - foreigners, scoungers, lefties, the poor etc - and they treat them awfully. Me pointing this out isn't treating anyone awfully, its holding a mirror up so they can see themselves.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    On sleep I'm definitely a 9 hours a night man. I dont often get quite that much and am very tired as a result.
  • I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Wishing everyone on here a happy as can be 2021. Unfortunately there is a grim start to the year but hopefully it will get better. And hope you can all be safe, healthy and at peace with the world,
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.

    There is more than one England. I am English and do not recognise what you say about my countrymen in me, my family, my friends or my work colleagues. Yes, the nativist reactionaries and bigots currently hold sway, but that does not have to be forever. In fact, I am confident it will not be. That's why I am not giving up on this place. It belongs to me as much as it does to Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson.
    I don't recognise them in my immediate family either. But as you have just said, it is there. That could change over time and I hope that it does. But I don't have to choose to raise my family in this environment - other countries are available.

    As to the comment up thread about responding to my rejecting nasty and judgemental people by being nasty and judgemental, there is a difference. Far too many people think that a long list of people are doing them wrong - foreigners, scoungers, lefties, the poor etc - and they treat them awfully. Me pointing this out isn't treating anyone awfully, its holding a mirror up so they can see themselves.
    You will find toxic nationalism and bigotry everywhere. England is not special in that regard. France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Germany, China and the US all have that virus.

    You might be less familiar with it, but it’s there all the same. Arguably, despite some recent political trends, England still handles it better than others.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    I just wonder, as others have here, what effect the arrival of a million or so HongKongers will have.Admittedly few will be competing with Mr P's 'neighbours' but if they are seen to be prospering and Mr P's by then former neighbours are not will we suddenly find ourselves with a new Enoch Powell?
  • felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.

    There is more than one England. I am English and do not recognise what you say about my countrymen in me, my family, my friends or my work colleagues. Yes, the nativist reactionaries and bigots currently hold sway, but that does not have to be forever. In fact, I am confident it will not be. That's why I am not giving up on this place. It belongs to me as much as it does to Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson.
    I don't recognise them in my immediate family either. But as you have just said, it is there. That could change over time and I hope that it does. But I don't have to choose to raise my family in this environment - other countries are available.

    As to the comment up thread about responding to my rejecting nasty and judgemental people by being nasty and judgemental, there is a difference. Far too many people think that a long list of people are doing them wrong - foreigners, scoungers, lefties, the poor etc - and they treat them awfully. Me pointing this out isn't treating anyone awfully, its holding a mirror up so they can see themselves.

    Fair enough. Strong like for your second paragraph. I don't think it is unique to England, though.

  • Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)

    That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
    I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union

    However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    My friend's neighbour had their parents come from England to stay for Christmas, against the Scottish rules. They have all gone down with Covid.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.

    Hundreds of millions - deaths alone were 75m. Otherwise agree, and recommend Max Hastings All Hell Let Loose for those who prefer the printed word.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. (Miss? Apologies, there are certain people (flowers and the colour blue) I keep forgetting) Rose, generally the elderly need less sleep than the young.

    Ages ago I spent a weekend with my grandpa and his wife and was surprised that the getting up time on an off-day was so early. Maybe around six?

    On the other hand, the salmon for breakfast was an unexpected bonus.

    But they had to get up at six, to land that salmon for your breakfast. Ordinarily, if you weren't staying they would barely have surfaced by tea-time....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)

    That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
    I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union

    However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
    The fear is that Brexit makes the UK breakup more likely and that some of the more English nationalist Brexiteers aren’t too bothered about it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Yes - if you think social security benefits are better in Spain than in the UK you have totally lost the plot. I love Spain but no contributions mean no benefits. If you think the Spanish love 'furriners' /migrants, etc again you really have no idea. Attitudes that I witness are much the same the world over - believe me not all Scots are full of the sweetness and light we read here so often from the saint that is Malc G! When you move to a new country you take a huge risk in very many ways. For me it has been worth it but not because I hate the UK or because I think i'm in Shangrila here.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214

    p.s. and cab drivers and pax have to wear masks. Most pax also sit in the back. I feel safer in an uber than I do walking around my local shops.

    The anomaly is that cab rides are within the rules but that lifts from friends (unless they are in your support bubble) are not, despite that being less risky.
    Nothing anomalous about that.

    Taxi lifts are permitted but pax and driver must wear masks. Most pax sit in the back and, in the case of uber, they're hot on disinfectant. You can't readily ban taxi rides as they are essential for some people especially the elderly.

    Getting into the front seat of a friend's car, without a mask I hasten to add, and then walking into a supermarket together is against the rules. And crazy behaviour.

    There's no anomaly about it.
    I think we are using the word anomaly to mean different things.
    Well where I totally disagree with you is your contention that normal lifts are safer. No way. My friend's daughter and her driver friend were maskless and sitting together in the front. Which is how most people give lifts to one another.

    A taxi driver, let's stick to uber, has to disinfect their car every morning. They have hand sanitiser for the passenger. Both driver and pax are required to wear masks and normally the pax sits in the back. When you book you have to acknowledge and accept these rules.

    I've taken several uber rides during this virus when I've had to and have felt very safe.

    My friend's daughter's behaviour is typical of what's going on.
    Anecdote (non-mutant strain) - I gave a lift to a friend to a testing center - he tested positive. We both wore masks in the car and he didn't infect me in the 10 minutes we shared a car. The same friend the day before went on a long drive with others for >2hrs, didn't manage to infect them either.

    That said - uber feels much more risky because you are probably the 10th person in the car. It's not a well ventilated space unless you roll down the windows!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    This, I guess, is Steve Baker's concept of Sunlit Uplands. Not sure what this has got to do with the European Union, but presumably he expects more of these kind of fields now we have thrown off the shackles...


    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1344780388246421513
  • Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    The same way an obese individual can be strengthened by losing a stone of fat.

    Wales would be strengthened too.
  • Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
    I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.

    The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Fishing, an English Parliament and then a more federal UK political body could be a cohesive way forward.

    The political and media class, however, seem to be allergic to contemplating the idea of an English Parliament, preferring to consider (when they think of England at all) the various ways it can be cut into pieces.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    The same way an obese individual can be strengthened by losing a stone of fat.

    Wales would be strengthened too.
    @Big_G_NorthWales this 👆is the sort of dumb, nasty English Nationalist Brexit attitude that concerns me. They don’t care about the breakup of the UK.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    I see we have started the New Year with Nationalist Homeopathy

    Make everything better by chopping it into ever smaller pieces...

    Anyway, let's hope for the best (and plan for the worst)


  • Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.

    Yes, nationalism is very specifically about blaming others for your problems. It is an entirely destructive political philosophy. The fall-out from the break-up of the UK will be far more consequential, long-lasting unpleasant than anything Brexit delivers.
    Absolute fearmongering nonsense.

    Nationalism is about taking responsibility for yourselves and not using others as a crutch.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    FF43 said:

    This, I guess, is Steve Baker's concept of Sunlit Uplands. Not sure what this has got to do with the European Union, but presumably he expects more of these kind of fields now we have thrown off the shackles...


    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1344780388246421513

    They are fields where the unicorns can graze freely.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)

    That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
    I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union

    However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
    The fear is that Brexit makes the UK breakup more likely and that some of the more English nationalist Brexiteers aren’t too bothered about it.
    It has increased the possibility of Scotland leaving but absolutely not Wales

    However, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge not only before the HOC and HOL passes a section 30 agreement and by then the UK will be in a very different place to today

    I expect Scotland to remain mainly because of the economic benefits but also there are many emotional and family ties
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.

    There is more than one England. I am English and do not recognise what you say about my countrymen in me, my family, my friends or my work colleagues. Yes, the nativist reactionaries and bigots currently hold sway, but that does not have to be forever. In fact, I am confident it will not be. That's why I am not giving up on this place. It belongs to me as much as it does to Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson.
    I don't recognise them in my immediate family either. But as you have just said, it is there. That could change over time and I hope that it does. But I don't have to choose to raise my family in this environment - other countries are available.

    As to the comment up thread about responding to my rejecting nasty and judgemental people by being nasty and judgemental, there is a difference. Far too many people think that a long list of people are doing them wrong - foreigners, scoungers, lefties, the poor etc - and they treat them awfully. Me pointing this out isn't treating anyone awfully, its holding a mirror up so they can see themselves.
    You will find toxic nationalism and bigotry everywhere. England is not special in that regard. France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Germany, China and the US all have that virus.

    You might be less familiar with it, but it’s there all the same. Arguably, despite some recent political trends, England still handles it better than others.
    Quite - all the polling I've ever seen has the UK quite high on the lists for toleration in all of its forms. Arguably one reason -among others- Brexit proved so divisive was the sense that some passionate 'remainers' couldn't accept the democratic vote. I would much prefer to have stayed in the EU despite its shortcomings at times but for now at least we have to live with it. I too am ont a fan of Johnson as PM but his choice of words wrt Europe after the deal was announced was pretty sound.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Mr. Fishing, an English Parliament and then a more federal UK political body could be a cohesive way forward.

    The political and media class, however, seem to be allergic to contemplating the idea of an English Parliament, preferring to consider (when they think of England at all) the various ways it can be cut into pieces.

    A proper constitutional settlement with greater powers and autonomy at local council level is the most urgent task. It's absurd that we have one of the most centralised democracies in the world, and we see the consequences during the current crisis.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited January 2021

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
    I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.

    The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
    You are the bigot who wrote

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3062923/#Comment_3062923

    You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.

    If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the provisions of the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
    I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.

    The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
    The Daily Mail is popular worldwide, trading profitably on outrage and hypocrisy with stories like ‘Outrage at nudity, see pictures on pages, 3,4,5&6’. I fear the forces you object to are not confined to England.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    FF43 said:

    My friend's neighbour had their parents come from England to stay for Christmas, against the Scottish rules. They have all gone down with Covid.

    That is very sad and utterly foolish - you simply cannot legislate for that level of stupidity. Just hope they will be ok.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214
    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Good morning, and happy new year.

    I have been waking up at 0630 all my working life, and my internal alarm clock does that at weekends and Bank holidays too.

    Grim article in the Atlantic on the new variant covid. This bit on the maths gave me a shock.

    "To understand the difference between exponential and linear risks, consider an example put forth by Adam Kucharski, a professor at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine who focuses on mathematical analyses of infectious-disease outbreaks. Kucharski compares a 50 percent increase in virus lethality to a 50 percent increase in virus transmissibility. Take a virus reproduction rate of about 1.1 and an infection fatality risk of 0.8 percent and imagine 10,000 active infections—a plausible scenario for many European cities, as Kucharski notes. As things stand, with those numbers, we’d expect 129 deaths in a month. If the fatality rate increased by 50 percent, that would lead to 193 deaths. In contrast, a 50 percent increase in transmissibility would lead to a whopping 978 deaths in just one month—assuming, in both scenarios, a six-day infection-generation time."

    https://twitter.com/AdrienneLaF/status/1344708609473728514?s=19

    The factoid that some people seem to super-spread to numerous others, yet most carriers don't spread much at all, crops up often in articles like this, yet we don't seem to be much wiser as to why this is?
    If the vaccine reduces transmission we should try to get those people first...
    One problem is that we don't know who they are.

    The mutation is to one arm of the spike protein hence vaccines and antibodies should work at least on the other arm. Ominously the South African mutation is on both arms. AZN has a trial there, so important to look at how the vaccine protects against that new strain.

    Maybe though the increased infectivity of the new variation is to increase the proportion of cases that act as super spreaders. If that changed from 20% to 30% it would do it.

    I don't think @Mysticrose is right on a change in aerosol spread. The physical change in the virus is not enough for that. I think though that aerosolisation has been generally under recognised as a form of spread.
    We don't know exactly who they are - but there are some parameters which would help the search.

    Firstly and obviously, super spreaders have to contact lots of people in their infectious period.

    We won't know about the criminally irresponsible organizing parties... but it's obvious that teachers for instance have more contacts with other people vs. those working from home.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited January 2021
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.
    Absolutely agreed.

    "Cooperation" is not always a good thing, especially when people have opposing priorities then cooperation actually becomes infighting and leads to arguments, sclerosis, decline, inactivity and decay.

    Individualism, decisiveness and the lean ability to take actions is superior than collectivism.

    Being apart we can still cooperate voluntarily when it is in our mutual interests. But we are not weighing each other down when collectivism is not in the mutual interest.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.
    Absolutely agreed.

    "Cooperation" is not always a good thing, especially when people have opposing priorities then cooperation actually becomes infighting and leads to arguments, sclerosis, decline, inactivity and decay.

    Individualism, decisiveness and the lean ability to take actions is superior than collectivism.
    I take it you’re not married.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
    I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.

    The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
    You are the bigot who wrote

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3062923/#Comment_3062923

    You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.

    If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
    1535 is a long time ago, much longer than 1707, and I am afraid the unification of the legal systems also makes a big difference.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited January 2021
    Morning all.

    How are the inevitable 20 miles queues of trucks on the M20 doing?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited January 2021

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
    I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.

    The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
    A small point; I think you're being unfair to Gillian Duffy. AIUI, all she said was the Rochdale she remembered as a girl was very different from the Rochdale she lived in by 2010.
    And she was right; it was different. And I don't think she was being particularly negative, and certainly when the Mirror interviewed her last April she wasn't racist.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    IshmaelZ said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
    I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.

    The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
    You are the bigot who wrote

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3062923/#Comment_3062923

    You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.

    If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
    1535 is a long time ago, much longer than 1707, and I am afraid the unification of the legal systems also makes a big difference.
    Wales is not part of England.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited January 2021
    ..

    FF43 said:

    This, I guess, is Steve Baker's concept of Sunlit Uplands. Not sure what this has got to do with the European Union, but presumably he expects more of these kind of fields now we have thrown off the shackles...


    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1344780388246421513

    They are fields where the unicorns can graze freely.
    There seems to be an absence of any life: unicorns, animals, people or crops. Maybe the point is the EU have kept us out of the sunlit uplands for so long and now we can pitch our tents and reclaim them ...
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.
    Absolutely agreed.

    "Cooperation" is not always a good thing, especially when people have opposing priorities then cooperation actually becomes infighting and leads to arguments, sclerosis, decline, inactivity and decay.

    Individualism, decisiveness and the lean ability to take actions is superior than collectivism.
    I take it you’re not married.
    I am married, voluntarily and to just my wife as one individual I am married to.

    I am not a part of some collective societal commune.

    Individual > collective again.
  • Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
    I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.

    The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
    You are the bigot who wrote

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3062923/#Comment_3062923

    You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.

    If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
    I love Wales! The challenge for Welsh nationalism is that legally Wales was part of England having been annexed by us long long ago. Thats why there isn't a Welsh Dragon on the Union Flag, you are represented by the English flag. Its shit, its stupid, and its being reversed.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.

    The danger of England alone is that it will be a country born out of rejection and so angry with itself and with others.

    I have rejected England. I cannot stand what we have become, can see no way to turn around the rank stupidity and arrogant exceptionalism, so I'm leaving.

    England has turned into an insular we are better fuck you country which would make sense if we were still the industrial powerhouse of the 60s or had a financial sector we hadn't just signed away with a Brexit deal that doesn't protect it. So having become spiteful and nasty towards the countries more prosperous and less cunty than we are, we will slide to being even less prosperous and even nastier.

    Or, more accurately, you will. Norniron will be fine, cast off the UK by a government so thick that it didn't realise it was doing it. Gibraltar, cast off to become British in Name Only. And Scotland, who at the very least will want their own slice of freedom and at the most will walk.

    People in England want to be free of the forrin? Lets be honest, that includes Paddy and Jock just as much as it does the Hun and the Frogs. Time to accept that and let England do whatever it thinks a country of its stature is entitled to.
    Goodness me - you'd be better leaving your hatred and hyperbole behind when you go to Scotland. It really does you no credit.
    Mate you don't see it day in day out because you don't live here. Local MP salutes Patel deporting forrin criminals and people pile in with comments saying she needs to deport hundreds a day. Despite having social security protections far stingier than any comparable country - Spain for example - we seem to think that anyone getting anything is on the scrounge or why do I have to pay for that.

    And this is Day 1 in Magic Brexit Land. When the two things people round here voted Brexit to achieve don't happen - less forrin, more money - they aren't going to realise the error of their ways and rediscover their basic compassion and humanity, they are going to get even angrier.

    There are other places to live. As I'm sure you can agree.
    Whilst undoubtedly there are outright bigots in England and our current politics panders to them too much, it is entirely wrong to say they are England. England, like all countries, is a throbbing mess of contradictions, with wonderful parts. We all get to choose what we focus on and celebrate. I for one still count myself hugely lucky to have been born here.
    I am not going to criticise people who are still proud of England and being English. I used to be and I hope the country can be turned around. As for outright bigots I am not really talking about them, its more the under the surface prejudice which I have talked about before. The Gillian Duffy people where they aren't racist they just identify people who aren't like them and treat them negatively because of it.

    The blame lies with the media and the politicians who have spun this for years for profit and advancement. People treat people poorly because they are openly encouraged to think that single mothers and the disabled and migrants etc etc etc are Bad People who are cheating You. The Daily Mail almost has a hate group of the week, and if that means attacking feckless workshy teachers this week then lets do that - people then wonder why decades of saying teachers lazy and exams too easy leads to parents not being engaged with the education system and then their life chances getting poorer in each generation.
    You are the bigot who wrote

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3062923/#Comment_3062923

    You denied the existence on any entire country and incorporated it in to England.

    If you repeat your anti-Welsh bigotry after moving to Scotland, I shall be looking at the Scottish Hate Crime Bill very carefully.
    1535 is a long time ago, much longer than 1707, and I am afraid the unification of the legal systems also makes a big difference.
    Wales is not part of England.
    No, but it is irretrievably part of EnglandnWales.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    I agree wrt Scotland but the NI anomaly is really just that. If they could get along a single united Irelandis not a catastrophe at all.
    We’re in serious danger of ending up with an English state.
    Certainly possible and it would make little sense but at least I'm clear that England alone would be a very powerful and viable force, economically, politically, culturally and socially. A Federated outcome of some sort would be preferable certainly.
    Very powerful? You mean less powerful. You would have to go centuries back to find England in a weaker position. And who says the Balkanisation would stop there?
    No I mean what I said - you have to remember how large in terms of population and economy that England is - and would arguably be strengthened by losing Wales, certainly. But I agree and think a Federal solution would be preferable. However, if the people, say, of Scotland are determined that surely is their right. I presume you don't solely blame the EU for Brexit - I would not solely blame England for Scexit. In all these matters it takes two to tango.
    How on Earth would England be strengthened by losing Wales? Utter madness.
    Surely, Wales leaving to go it alone is the least likely of outcomes. NI - maybe, although we might end up with rUK offering refuge to a whole bunch of Unionists, if a united Ireland doesn't want a low-level civil war for decades. Scotland? As said previously, I'm in the "good luck to them" camp. But I think they'd need that luck. The EU might enjoy the spectacle of the UK unravelling, but I'm not sure that would translate into cutting Scotland much slack once loose from England. Of all the arguments about independence, the economic one is very weak. I still think it one which will keep independence tantalisingly out of reach in any new referendum. (Not that I think once is coming this side of another general election, irrespective of how Scotland votes this May.)

    That economic case isn't there for Wales. And if, as I suspect, the coming couple of months sees the effective collapse of the NHS in Wales and it needs huge support from hospitals around England, then the wider case for independence will also be set back.
    I continue to maintain that when indyref2 comes along, and it will not be before late 2022 or 2023, Scotland will vote to remain in the union

    However, Wales simply does not have anywhere near a desire to leave the union and it seems it is mainly a hope from those bitter at Brexit and hope for the UK to break up in some perverse revenge motive
    The fear is that Brexit makes the UK breakup more likely and that some of the more English nationalist Brexiteers aren’t too bothered about it.
    It has increased the possibility of Scotland leaving but absolutely not Wales

    However, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge not only before the HOC and HOL passes a section 30 agreement and by then the UK will be in a very different place to today

    I expect Scotland to remain mainly because of the economic benefits but also there are many emotional and family ties
    Don't be so sure about Wales. As a lifelong Unionist I would now consider voting for an independent Wales. Yes, I know Wales is an economic desert and we would be well and truly up a gum tree, but if the principle of heart over head worked once (for Brexit) it can again.

    Once the Pandora's box of Scottish independence is opened, a United Ireland will follow, however the DUP might protest ( that arrangement might not be arrived at without some severe unpleasantness). Why then, shouldn't Wales then join the party?

    Like I said, heart over head.
  • Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is weird. Gibraltar in Schengen, a border in the Irish Sea and relations with Scotland weaker than ever. And yet they celebrate. Weird.

    I wonder if we'll be lumping Gibraltar Monaco, San Marino Andorra etc together, as 'small associated states of the EU' by the end of the year.
    And I suspect the next Northern Irish elections will result in losses for hard-line Unionists and gains for parties like Alliance and SDLP, which could just mean a SF First Minister.
    And as there'll be no Unionist alliance in Scotland the SNP will walk home. Indeed I wonder whether, if the LD's nationally adopt a very pro-EU (not necessarily Rejoin) line they'll have a revival ind Scotland.
    I for one would welcome a united Ireland [though hopefully not led into it by SF] possible more so than the Republican government. The north brings with it many deep-rooted, complex and intransigent problems.
    The break up of the UK is a catastrophe.
    No, I don't think so. If people freely choose self determination, I wish them well. The days we suppress independence movements by force of arms should be long since consigned to the history books.

    Clearly, if the Union does end the sensible thing to do would be for all sides to sit down and work out a constructive, mutually beneficial future based on cooperation and friendship. Can you seriously see that happening, though?

    Nationalism reduces cooperation, it’s essentially the whole point of it.

    Yes, nationalism is very specifically about blaming others for your problems. It is an entirely destructive political philosophy. The fall-out from the break-up of the UK will be far more consequential, long-lasting unpleasant than anything Brexit delivers.
    Absolute fearmongering nonsense.

    Nationalism is about taking responsibility for yourselves and not using others as a crutch.

    You don't read much history, do you Phil?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Leon said:

    2020 was the worst year of my lifetime

    For me, the same.

    Weirdly, 2020 also contained some of the happiest moments of my life - true and tranquil contentment, during sunny Lockdown 1 - but they are heavily outweighed by the woes. And the debts, deaths, divorces and depressions I have witnessed at close hand, and further afield.

    Fuck off, 2020. Hello, 2021. Please just be mediocre. That will do us fine
    In 2020 I started employed by a business with great prospects having built a brilliant team. I had to progressively sack the team until I myself got sacked with the business struggling to survive. I haven't seen my mid-70s parents since February with no expectation when that will change as thanks to lockdown / shielding there hasn't been a minute since where its legal for us to hug. I've seen my eldest have to scrap university for a year and mentally struggle. My younger kids spend months off school. I went mad and ended up finally on anti-depressants.

    The upsides? Carpe Diem, Baby. We're selling up and moving to Scotland. Couldn't have happened without the significant change in how we live and work. So ambitions to run my own company and move to Scotland can now happen.

    2021 has to be better than 2020.
    All the best with it all.
    Stay posting if you have the time.
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