Don't know why she even included that bit. Just make the point, which many will agree with, without pretending to take the high ground in not spinning things. It just highlights the spin.
Does he wonder what would have happened if he had actually negotiated with the EU instead of thinking it was 'too much of a faff' ?
He should feel ashamed.
Deep, deep, lifelong embarrassment I should think.
The EU just never believed he would walk away. Failure of Negotiating 1.01
And then May, Hammond and Robbins repeated that mistake.
Some here may belittle Boris as a clown but cometh the hour, cometh the man and he was exactly the kind of unpredictable leader that was needed.
I think it was @Casino_Royale that made the point on the aggressive fishing waters stance in no deal concentrating minds in the EU.
Those tough stances have ensured the EU compromised and did a deal realising the UK would force the no deal to mean no deal on both sides of it. They knew with May and Robbins they'd still get preferential access to the UK without needing to give anything in return in the no deal scenario.
"The EU caved on big points because we made them truly fear No Deal" -
This will be a key part of the Johnson spin on the deal over the next few days and weeks. Let's see how it holds up.
It looks as though third country status for agriculture has made it into the deal. That's a massive climbdown, the EU were absolutely adamant that the UK would have to sign up to dynamic alignment for agricultural standards for that, we haven't done the latter but we have the former.
The EU has in many areas made concessions, and I'm sure in many areas the UK has too. I think this could be the start of a much healthier UK/EU relationship. We don't hold up their integration project and they don't impose stupid laws and regulations on us.
Keep going you will soon have convinced yourself England is a world power again.
England/the UK is a world power.
We will remain so even if just England.
A world power would not have had to kowtow to the EU's terms. We have managed to secure a trade deal with worse terms than we previously had. Hurray!
We haven't kowtowed, we have negotiated. We now have better terms than we had before. Hooray! 🎊
No we haven't. We have made trade and travel more difficult and introduced lots of red tape. How do we have better terms?
Barring any shocks ...
Not paying billions in subscription fees? ✅ Outside of the Single Market ✅ Outside of the Customs Union ✅ Outside of the ECJ ✅ Able to diverge ✅ Laws set in Westminster ✅ Control of our waters ✅ Able to sign trade deals with the rest of the world ✅ Able to decide how to control migration ✅
I've probably missed things. What you consider worse red tape is what others wanted us to achieve to make things better.
You think 2 and 3 are good? Not what leavers used to say.
There is a cost to 1 which most believe is higher.
Why would we diverge?
From personal experience I have benefited from ECJ when Westminster sat on its hands ( can detail if you wish) through incompetence.
8, deals negotiated on worse terms due to economy of scale.
Control of waters - big deal
Immigration - doubt it will have any impact on numbers but has restricted me and my children's freedom of movement.
Yes 2 and 3 are good and what was voted for in the referendum.
We would diverge because we chose to do so. Democratically.
Our Parliament subjected to our scrutiny at elections and our Courts subjected to our Parliament's scrutiny should be the ones to decide the law. Not the ECJ.
Restrictions on your ability to move are more theoretical than real. Most British expats go to non EU nations like Australia and Canada.
Theoretical rather than real? Really? Loads of people I know have been impacted by this. To give you the worse example a friend of mine sold up bought a mobile home and has been travelling Europe. That was his retirement plan for the next umpteen years. He is now holed up on his sons drive because of the restriction of 90 days in every 180. Loads of people go to France and Spain to retire and they are getting well screwed. How about travelling for work. My sons girlfriend is Romanian. They are both doing their Ph.Ds at Cambridge. Try telling them it only has a theoretical impact.
2 & 3 was what was voted for in the referendum you say. That is not what we were told by so many at the time. On the contrary and contrary to your video many said that would not change.
But we won't diverge will we. To do so would be economic suicide.
The ECJ does not make the law it decides on cases and has done a cracking job of doing so where the UK parliament has failed to legislate or resolve outstanding matters because it is so slow and cumbersome. I have been involved in 2 campaigns re the abuse of premium lite telephone numbers and on a particular pension issue. Parliament and UK Ombudsman (out of remit) have been hopeless on both. In both cases the ECJ passed judgements that were immediately accepted by the UK Government. They were not controversial. That benefit of the ECJ fall back has gone now. But yeah we have our freedom to do bugger all about injustices now.
Our own courts offer plenty of redress against injustice.
WRT freedom of movement, far more British nationals live and work in North America, Australia and New Zealand than the EU. They seem to be able to flourish, despite the lack of free movement.
Thanks for the reply @Sean_F , I always enjoy your posts.
Yes of course people manage it, just as we will still manage to trade with Europe, but why make it much more difficult. See my reference to my friend who has been badly impacted.
Re courts - I have no issue with the courts as such, but sometimes the existing laws make redress impossible through the UK courts and getting the law changed is a nightmare and there are plenty of injustices as a consequence as we all know that are outside of the remit of the courts. I have been involved in trying to right a scandal for the last eight years. This has involved 2 debates in parliament and the attempt to pass a 10 min bill (scuppered by the GE in December). It is tortuous. The various ombudsmen have very limited remits. The ECJ was often the best last resort. In the two campaigns I have been involved in in recent years one was solved by the ECJ and another partly resolved. There was no recourse through the UK courts or ombudsmen.
Let's not get over-excited everybody. 2020 may not be done with us yet. There's still a week left to go: will one of the member states torpedo the thing?
Then, even if they don't, what about the European Parliament?
Hopefully this is one less thing to worry about. That's probably true. But it's not in the bag.
Sturgeon who wanted Scots to vote YES in 2014, thus expelling Scotland instantly from the EU. A Scexit so brutal it might have hurled scotland into immediate default.
Sturgeon who wanted Scots to vote YES in 2014, thus expelling Scotland instantly from the EU. A Scexit so brutal it might have hurled scotland into immediate default.
It is weird Sturgeon never mentions this.
That was always a contentious matter, to put it mildly. But what is not in dispute is that the No side won, on the promise that No = Remain.
Let's not get over-excited everybody. 2020 may not be done with us yet. There's still a week left to go: will one of the member states torpedo the thing?
Then, even if they don't, what about the European Parliament?
Hopefully this is one less thing to worry about. That's probably true. But it's not in the bag.
Yawn.
Get over yourself.
And you Sean.
I reserve the right to fear the worst. Yet another disaster is unlikely in this case, but it wouldn't be wholly surprising if it occurred. I think we've all noticed the tendency for things to keep going wrong over and over again just lately.
For multi-lingual speeches, where words are not simply repeated, I wonder how they decide which parts should be in which language.
They all start in English, use English phrases throughout, then revert to English again.
To the grande chagrin of the French, this may be the UK’s lasting contribution to the EU during our truncated membership. When we joined the 6 it was largely-French-speaking. As we leave, it is 85% English speaking. I don’t know what the French is for: ‘job done’
Let's not get over-excited everybody. 2020 may not be done with us yet. There's still a week left to go: will one of the member states torpedo the thing?
Then, even if they don't, what about the European Parliament?
Hopefully this is one less thing to worry about. That's probably true. But it's not in the bag.
Yawn.
Get over yourself.
And you Sean.
I reserve the right to fear the worst. Yet another disaster is unlikely in this case, but it wouldn't be wholly surprising if it occurred. I think we've all noticed the tendency for things to keep going wrong over and over again just lately.
You do make me laugh! Your unremitting pessimism is a fine antidote to Philip_Thompson's relentless gerbil-faced optimism.
It's long been my experience that once individuals and organisations look into the abyss, they tend to take a few steps back from the edge. Neither the EU nor the UK liked what not agreeing a Deal would mean. Quite apart from the economics and the politics, the logistical potential nightmare, as exemplified by events in Kent over the weekend, would undoubtedly have concentrated minds.
The will to agree came to the fore as the reality of the alternative became clear so compromises will have been struck and as @AlastairMeeks the spin coming our way is going to be frightening.
I share the view the inadequate time for scrutiny is appalling and that applies equally to the EU side. Again, as seems so often the case these days, the brinkmanship of the deadline overrides the requirement for a proper look at what's being agreed. You have to sign - no time to read but you know what will happen if you don't.
It's a way of doing business and conducting public policy that belongs in the Dark Ages.
No doubt our Christmas will be tarnished by the euphoric bellicose rantings of some and the wailing and gnashing of teeth of others. What would cheer up my Christmas is Saint Calvados winning the King George at 20/1 on Saturday.
Let's not get over-excited everybody. 2020 may not be done with us yet. There's still a week left to go: will one of the member states torpedo the thing?
Then, even if they don't, what about the European Parliament?
Hopefully this is one less thing to worry about. That's probably true. But it's not in the bag.
Yawn.
Get over yourself.
And you Sean.
I reserve the right to fear the worst. Yet another disaster is unlikely in this case, but it wouldn't be wholly surprising if it occurred. I think we've all noticed the tendency for things to keep going wrong over and over again just lately.
You do make me laugh! Your unremitting pessimism is a fine antidote to Philip_Thompson's relentless gerbil-faced optimism.
Let's not get over-excited everybody. 2020 may not be done with us yet. There's still a week left to go: will one of the member states torpedo the thing?
Then, even if they don't, what about the European Parliament?
Hopefully this is one less thing to worry about. That's probably true. But it's not in the bag.
Yawn.
Get over yourself.
And you Sean.
I reserve the right to fear the worst. Yet another disaster is unlikely in this case, but it wouldn't be wholly surprising if it occurred. I think we've all noticed the tendency for things to keep going wrong over and over again just lately.
You do make me laugh! Your unremitting pessimism is a fine antidote to Philip_Thompson's relentless gerbil-faced optimism.
Unkind, perhaps, but one has to love a Red Dwarf reference.
Sturgeon who wanted Scots to vote YES in 2014, thus expelling Scotland instantly from the EU. A Scexit so brutal it might have hurled scotland into immediate default.
It is weird Sturgeon never mentions this.
That was always a contentious matter, to put it mildly. But what is not in dispute is that the No side won, on the promise that No = Remain.
It is not contentious. YES in 2014 meant Scotland outside the EU. Scexit from the EU. No one serious disputes this. The vagueness surrounds how long it might have taken Scotland to rejoin, and whether there might have been Spanish vetoes, problems with currency, and so on.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Give it a break Rob. This whole mess is created by the Tories.
What does that have to do with the hypocrisy of a politician spinning whilst criticising others for spinning? It happens to be true, no matter how much this mess is created by the Tories.
Let's not get over-excited everybody. 2020 may not be done with us yet. There's still a week left to go: will one of the member states torpedo the thing?
Then, even if they don't, what about the European Parliament?
Hopefully this is one less thing to worry about. That's probably true. But it's not in the bag.
Yawn.
Get over yourself.
And you Sean.
I reserve the right to fear the worst. Yet another disaster is unlikely in this case, but it wouldn't be wholly surprising if it occurred. I think we've all noticed the tendency for things to keep going wrong over and over again just lately.
You do make me laugh! Your unremitting pessimism is a fine antidote to Philip_Thompson's relentless gerbil-faced optimism.
I wasn't always this bad. Like a lot of people, I would imagine, I've been ground down by the unrelenting misery of Covid. I'm trying to be more optimistic thanks to the vaccine projects, but I still can't help anticipating the next setback coming round the corner.
Sturgeon who wanted Scots to vote YES in 2014, thus expelling Scotland instantly from the EU. A Scexit so brutal it might have hurled scotland into immediate default.
It is weird Sturgeon never mentions this.
That was always a contentious matter, to put it mildly. But what is not in dispute is that the No side won, on the promise that No = Remain.
It is not contentious. YES in 2014 meant Scotland outside the EU. Scexit from the EU. No one serious disputes this. The vagueness surrounds how long it might have taken Scotland to rejoin, and whether there might have been Spanish vetoes, problems with currency, and so on.
Yes, although I'm not entirely sure why it would have been instantaneous any more than the UK didn't instantaneously leave the EU after the referendum vote. The political complexity and implications would have unfolded in the time after.
I hope Labour will back the deal and then we can move on to making public the dreadful job the Tories have done of managing the country over the last ten years and COVID.
We can celebrate now, and then sit back in lockdown for the early part of next year to see how much damage this self inflicted wound will do.
That's the spirit. Relief at a deal in no way means people need to concede their fundamental view on the whole Brexit project, but some things can wait a bit.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Sturgeon who wanted Scots to vote YES in 2014, thus expelling Scotland instantly from the EU. A Scexit so brutal it might have hurled scotland into immediate default.
It is weird Sturgeon never mentions this.
That was always a contentious matter, to put it mildly. But what is not in dispute is that the No side won, on the promise that No = Remain.
It is not contentious. YES in 2014 meant Scotland outside the EU. Scexit from the EU. No one serious disputes this. The vagueness surrounds how long it might have taken Scotland to rejoin, and whether there might have been Spanish vetoes, problems with currency, and so on.
You're omitting the point it would have taken Scotland a non-negligible time to leave the EU. And those would have been concurrent.
Also, the Spanish would never have vetoed a legal referendum. That's their entire position, and entirely consiistent with Catalonia.
This whole matter is one key reason why Brexit will never be 'done'.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Young voters are interesting in that the Tories don't currently need to win them, they just need to ensure that enough of them still transition to being Tores as they age. Are enough angry enough about Brexit that that won't happen in sufficient amounts? Maybe. But once it's done, will others instead go 'Sure, I was and am furious about it, but voting for Corbyn is not the answer' (in this hypothetical scenario Corbyn was returned as Labour leader following the 2024 GE )
Though in my experience the angriest at the Tories are non Tory older people, since they bring up their poor grandchildren's future more than the grandchildren do.
Ultra Remain on Twitter now discovering a deep passion for Erasmus (which was a good scheme, but they'd never noticed it before). Ultra Leave very quiet. Torygraph website has a piece from some Kipper ex-MEP saying it's probably a terrible deal.
Perhaps at this time, more than any other, a degree of conciliation would be in order rather than simply pointing out how angry some people are.
A harmonious relationship outside the political structure of the EU will, in my view, be better for both the UK and the EU than an adversarial relationship inside.
Even when a deal really is good some people would not see it and would need to be goaded into doing so, so I doubt thta means anything. Simple fact is he has enough MPs to see it over the line with usual mixture of inducements and threats.
Perhaps at this time, more than any other, a degree of conciliation would be in order rather than simply pointing out how angry some people are.
A harmonious relationship outside the political structure of the EU will, in my view, be better for both the UK and the EU than an adversarial relationship inside.
Hm, why wasn't that directed at the poster calling others "ugly motherfuckers"?
Boris promises a £100 m programme to help the fishing industry modernise as waters are reclaimed, says the UK will be a prosperous and dynamic nation on the EU's doorstep. Will be a giant free trade zone with the EU but both sides can protect businesses and consumers, though that should be infrequently required.
Boris thanks VDL, Frost and Barnier for agreeing the Deal and a Parliamentary vote on December 30th
Perhaps at this time, more than any other, a degree of conciliation would be in order rather than simply pointing out how angry some people are.
A harmonious relationship outside the political structure of the EU will, in my view, be better for both the UK and the EU than an adversarial relationship inside.
I agree but I was responding to a particular nasty response to a poster
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
For multi-lingual speeches, where words are not simply repeated, I wonder how they decide which parts should be in which language.
They all start in English, use English phrases throughout, then revert to English again.
To the grande chagrin of the French, this may be the UK’s lasting contribution to the EU during our truncated membership. When we joined the 6 it was largely-French-speaking. As we leave, it is 85% English speaking. I don’t know what the French is for: ‘job done’
The Americans do the heavy lifting and the Brits take the credit. What does this remind us of?
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
Sturgeon who wanted Scots to vote YES in 2014, thus expelling Scotland instantly from the EU. A Scexit so brutal it might have hurled scotland into immediate default.
It is weird Sturgeon never mentions this.
That was always a contentious matter, to put it mildly. But what is not in dispute is that the No side won, on the promise that No = Remain.
It is not contentious. YES in 2014 meant Scotland outside the EU. Scexit from the EU. No one serious disputes this. The vagueness surrounds how long it might have taken Scotland to rejoin, and whether there might have been Spanish vetoes, problems with currency, and so on.
You're omitting the point it would have taken Scotland a non-negligible time to leave the EU. And those would have been concurrent.
Also, the Spanish would never have vetoed a legal referendum. That's their entire position, and entirely consiistent with Catalonia.
This whole matter is one key reason why Brexit will never be 'done'.
Leon has a point.
Sturgeon was promoting at least a temporary Scexit in 2014, with a “cake and eat-it” promise that rejoining would presumably be straightforward.
I guess she’s changed her mind, but let’s not change history.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
Barnier mentioned it specifically. Lots of universities have their own arrangements with overseas partners, so whilst it is a great shame, it isn't the massive deal that hyper Pro EU Twitter is now making it out to be.
Comments
Yes of course people manage it, just as we will still manage to trade with Europe, but why make it much more difficult. See my reference to my friend who has been badly impacted.
Re courts - I have no issue with the courts as such, but sometimes the existing laws make redress impossible through the UK courts and getting the law changed is a nightmare and there are plenty of injustices as a consequence as we all know that are outside of the remit of the courts. I have been involved in trying to right a scandal for the last eight years. This has involved 2 debates in parliament and the attempt to pass a 10 min bill (scuppered by the GE in December). It is tortuous. The various ombudsmen have very limited remits. The ECJ was often the best last resort. In the two campaigns I have been involved in in recent years one was solved by the ECJ and another partly resolved. There was no recourse through the UK courts or ombudsmen.
It is weird Sturgeon never mentions this.
Not sure where she ranks among other PB crushes such as Lisa Nandy, Rosena Allin-Khan and Leanne Wood.
I'm actually going to have to work on Christmas Day for the first time in seventeen years.
Hopefully Macron or the Walloon parliament vetoes the deal this afternoon.
To the grande chagrin of the French, this may be the UK’s lasting contribution to the EU during our truncated membership. When we joined the 6 it was largely-French-speaking. As we leave, it is 85% English speaking. I don’t know what the French is for: ‘job done’
It's long been my experience that once individuals and organisations look into the abyss, they tend to take a few steps back from the edge. Neither the EU nor the UK liked what not agreeing a Deal would mean. Quite apart from the economics and the politics, the logistical potential nightmare, as exemplified by events in Kent over the weekend, would undoubtedly have concentrated minds.
The will to agree came to the fore as the reality of the alternative became clear so compromises will have been struck and as @AlastairMeeks the spin coming our way is going to be frightening.
I share the view the inadequate time for scrutiny is appalling and that applies equally to the EU side. Again, as seems so often the case these days, the brinkmanship of the deadline overrides the requirement for a proper look at what's being agreed. You have to sign - no time to read but you know what will happen if you don't.
It's a way of doing business and conducting public policy that belongs in the Dark Ages.
No doubt our Christmas will be tarnished by the euphoric bellicose rantings of some and the wailing and gnashing of teeth of others. What would cheer up my Christmas is Saint Calvados winning the King George at 20/1 on Saturday.
If you're going to put up 4 flags, why not put one up for each Home nation, and then a big UK flag behind?
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Presumably Scotland will now argue they want to hand over their fish stocks after the 5.5 years ends..
Have a lovely afternoon.
Also, the Spanish would never have vetoed a legal referendum. That's their entire position, and entirely consiistent with Catalonia.
This whole matter is one key reason why Brexit will never be 'done'.
Though in my experience the angriest at the Tories are non Tory older people, since they bring up their poor grandchildren's future more than the grandchildren do.
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1342129554287075328?s=20
Sound poor...
A harmonious relationship outside the political structure of the EU will, in my view, be better for both the UK and the EU than an adversarial relationship inside.
Boris thanks VDL, Frost and Barnier for agreeing the Deal and a Parliamentary vote on December 30th
I’m very relieved there’s a deal, and from what little I understand it appears to be a fair one.
Perhaps there is a devil in the detail, but I’m not especially predicting that, either.
Mr. HYUFD, be fair. Sturgeon wanted Scotland to leave the EU in 2014, no wonder she's annoyed it took a few years longer than she'd hoped to achieve.
For someone who bangs on about the will of the Scottish people she's bloody eager to ignore their decision to stay in the UK.
Anyway, we'll see how this goes. May 'had' a deal.
I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
'Got Brexit Done'
Sturgeon was promoting at least a temporary Scexit in 2014, with a “cake and eat-it” promise that rejoining would presumably be straightforward.
I guess she’s changed her mind, but let’s not change history.
https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1342131436896333824
Good to be on the same page