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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited December 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    A young homeless man he had picked up off the street and had offered money to in exchange for sex.

    Yes, it was AFAIK consensual. The money was refused, after all. So today, it would not be illegal, which is why the posthumous pardon was issued (the obsession with these is a whole other can of worms).

    But I can’t help feeling that a lecturer who behaved that way today would however have trouble finding work. Apart from anything else, no insurance company would cover them to work with young adults.

    For that reason, like I say I wonder if it is a wise choice given others were available. It feels as though this has more to do with Johnson’s WWII obsession than careful thought and selection of an appropriate person for these circumstances.

    If it were a mathematical chair at a research institute that would be rather different.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,361

    UK Local R

    image

    Apologies - I expect you have been asked this before but how is the order the local areas apeaar in the chart deteremined?
    Pretty crudely - sum over the range and use that to order.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?

    This at a time when we are trying to stamp out lecturer-student relationships in universities because they are inappropriate.

    I can’t help but feel Sophia Jex-Blake would have been an altogether more appropriate choice.
    A lot of inadvertent comedy would be stamped out along with them if they were. I remember being out to dinner late many years ago, only to recognize that the distinguished gentleman at another table entertaining a much younger female companion was a Professor of Moral Philosophy.

    Which at least meant that although he was doing wrong, he knew exactly how and why it was wrong...
    I can only imagine that increased his delight in the relationship.

    kjh said:

    kjh said:


    My sons girlfriend is Romanian. They are both doing their Ph.Ds at Cambridge. Try telling them it only has a theoretical impact.

    Cambridge is interesting. Why do you think all the (mainly LibDem voting) wards in the North and West of Cambridge voted Remain ?

    And all the (mainly Labour voting) wards in the East of Cambridge voted Leave ?

    Suppose you were born and bought up in Cambridge. What do you think happened to rents in Cambridge as the EU poured money into Cambridge, and so created many temporary positions for many more graduate students or postdocs? All these extra people needed to be housed somewhere.

    Consequently, people of modest income (& yes probably modest ability) found themselves completely priced out of rents in affluent Cambridge because of this. They had to live with their parents in cramped houses or leave the city.

    More generally, the impact of the EU was usually to aid the affluent middle-classes (or soon to be middle-classes).

    Such people proved unwilling or unable to share their good fortune with those who ended up worse off because of EU policies (such as apprentices or the children of low-skilled manual workers in the city of Cambridge who found themselves priced out of the rental market in the town in which they grew up.).

    I think it is somewhat more nuanced than your picture.
    Sorry YBarddCwsc I wasn't ignoring you, just off to prep for tomorrow.

    Your points are well made, but I wasn't dealing with that issue. I was simply referring to Philip's rather rash statement that freedom of movement issues are theoretical rather than real. For many they are really real eg a Romanian post grad. One has to have a limited circle of acquittances not to come across people impacted.
    There are certainly people affected. I am affected.

    But, actually, your son's girlfriend is lucky -- a Romanian in her position today is unable to able for (most) PhD funding in UK Universities and will find it much more difficult to get to do a PhD in Cambridge.

    The US gets a lot of bad press -- but I think it is worth saying how utterly brilliant the US universities are. They really do try to take the best people, globally, for their PhD programs. If you are Asian, European, African, Latin American, you're eligible if you're good. That really is the way to get the really best universities in the world, you recruit on a world stage and you rule no-one out on grounds of nationality.

    Of course, the EU **doesn't** do this. It (effectively) builds a wall around the EU. You are privileged in you live in the EU, but that is at a cost of discriminating against those from outside e.g., Russia or America or Asia.

    Just to be clear, the UK universities will be left in a very bad way unless we replace the opportunities for people from outside the UK to do PhDs here -- but we could replace them by running genuinely global & inclusive programs, as the US does.
    I can't help thinking our immigration policy should get more judgmental. We really shouldn't turn down PhD students. Or deter them from working once they have graduated.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    This could work out quite well for NI . Still in the EU single market but having full access into the UK market . I’m happy that there is a deal otherwise it would have been four years in the run upto the next election of more EU hate and jingoism on steroids.

    The government now needs to own everything that goes on in the UK and not have the easy option of scapegoating the EU although I expect another scapegoat will be found to replace them .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited December 2020
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?

    This at a time when we are trying to stamp out lecturer-student relationships in universities because they are inappropriate.

    I can’t help but feel Sophia Jex-Blake would have been an altogether more appropriate choice.
    Quite, not least because she had to qualify overseas (MD Berne) because English and Scottish unis wouldn't let her, to their shame. Maybe they don't want to be reminded.
    Well, that was my reasoning too. Plus she was a pioneering doctor, and a woman, and a lesbian. If you really wanted to tick every diversity box, she’s perfect.

    Oh, and Scottish of course.
    She was English, actually (it was only her initial medical training that was Scottish). But I hadn't known about her personal life. One learns something ...
    Really? My mistake, I thought she was from Edinburgh as well as attended uni there.

    Joseph Ball made one of the great one liners on her behalf. When he was giving a lecture she and the rest of the Edinburgh Seven were attending it was disrupted by male students, who pushed a sheep into the theatre, he said genially, ‘Leave it, leave it, ‘tis more intelligent than those who brought it.’
  • Well, I'm delighted. Truly delighted.

    I'm reading the (slightly more political) UK summary of the TCA at the moment. Will post more when I'm done.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,851

    Leon said:

    Is it weird or unusual that I slightly fancy Ursula van Der Leyen?

    I get this.
    The whole bad girl/plagiarised her PhD thing?
  • ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    We is weally sowwy that we persecuted you to suicide, but look what we've done to prove that we're not like that any more. We have listened to the tank topped bum boys!
  • The next election has been blown wide open with Keir's actions today, he's taking the Red Wall seriously.

    Of course Tories will still call him Captain Foresight and fence sitter but they wouldn't have voted for him anyway.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    A young homeless man he had picked up off the street and had offered money to in exchange for sex.

    Yes, it was AFAIK consensual. The money was refused, after all. So today, it would not be illegal, which is why the posthumous pardon was issued (the obsession with these is a whole other can of worms).

    But I can’t help feeling that a lecturer who behaved that way today would however have trouble finding work. Apart from anything else, no insurance company would cover them to work with young adults.

    For that reason, like I say I wonder if it is a wise choice given others were available. It feels as though this has more to do with Johnson’s WWII obsession than careful thought and selection of an appropriate person for these circumstances.

    If it were a mathematical chair at a research institute that would be rather different.
    It's not as if Hodges's book had not been out - it's been available for many years.
  • gealbhan said:

    Starmer to whip Labour MPs to vote for the deal.

    The Labour Party should apologise. They killed Mays deal, and then voted through Boris’s deal?

    Anyone in the Labour Party on here tonight can explain it? if you can’t explain it, please apologise not just to every remain voter, but every leave voter too, who hoped for something that stands up for Britain’s interests more substantially than Boris odd shaped Canada FTA.
    May's deal pertained to the withdrawal agreement, it was a bad deal and Labour was right to vote against it and indeed Johnson's deal too. This deal pertains to the FTA. We left the EU a year ago and the question is whether we leave with some agreement to facilitate trade or not. Personally I think it is better to abstain on this deal, so that Labour can spend the next four years pointing out what I am sure are its many flaws. But voting against it suggests we are OK with no deal.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Well, I'm delighted. Truly delighted.

    I'm reading the (slightly more political) UK summary of the TCA at the moment. Will post more when I'm done.

    When Boris said in his press conference we have frictionless trade with the EU, he quite simply lied. And it’s not just extra administration and bureaucracy placed on British business (and from there on all of us) he’s lying about - heres the kicker, we have achieved absolutely nothing in return for becoming poorer. Under terms of Boris deal we can’t diverge from the EU ratchet clause and enjoy any freedom without an argument and the EU slapping tariffs on us.
  • RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Anglophobe? LOL.
    Anglophone! :) I should have written Anglosphere.
    There are of course places that speak Thai, Japanese, Hausa, isiZulu. Think global, buccaneering Britain. (I'd summon up the spirit of the Elizabethan adventurers if they hadn't all been caught blackbirding).
  • nico679 said:

    This could work out quite well for NI . Still in the EU single market but having full access into the UK market . I’m happy that there is a deal otherwise it would have been four years in the run upto the next election of more EU hate and jingoism on steroids.

    The government now needs to own everything that goes on in the UK and not have the easy option of scapegoating the EU although I expect another scapegoat will be found to replace them .

    I genuinely hope we can all move on and I do hope we have a really good relationship with the EU

    Time to stop being remainers and leavers, and work towards conciliation and a brighter future
  • Actually I am more of the view that Starmer took the position he did as Brexit Sec specifically to win a future leadership contest and to get rid of Corbyn. I am of that view increasingly, PB must be crying out with glee if it's true.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,682

    UK Local R

    image

    Apologies - I expect you have been asked this before but how is the order the local areas apeaar in the chart deteremined?
    Pretty crudely - sum over the range and use that to order.
    Cheers. Makes sense.

    Weighting the figures for more recent dates would risk upset from the partial information available for the most recent dates.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?

    This at a time when we are trying to stamp out lecturer-student relationships in universities because they are inappropriate.

    I can’t help but feel Sophia Jex-Blake would have been an altogether more appropriate choice.
    A lot of inadvertent comedy would be stamped out along with them if they were. I remember being out to dinner late many years ago, only to recognize that the distinguished gentleman at another table entertaining a much younger female companion was a Professor of Moral Philosophy.

    Which at least meant that although he was doing wrong, he knew exactly how and why it was wrong...
    When I was at Aber a lecturer in one faculty - not mine - was caught giving higher marks in exchange for sexual favours from four female students.

    One of them had never actually had any boyfriend of any sort before he went to work on her. She was also a friend of mine and had to be talked out of suicide when his scheme was rumbled.

    Since then I have been perhaps touchy on the subject. That still doesn’t alter the fact this opens up a can of worms that need not have been opened.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,244

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    YDoethur is correct.

    It is clear from Andrew Hodges' biography that Turing was interested in young boys. Illegal still today.
    Interesting one to try and argue.

    So are we going to rename

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Go the whole hog.

    Henry VIII .
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,361

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Anglophobe? LOL.
    Anglophone! :) I should have written Anglosphere.
    There are of course places that speak Thai, Japanese, Hausa, isiZulu. Think global, buccaneering Britain. (I'd summon up the spirit of the Elizabethan adventurers if they hadn't all been caught blackbirding).
    I am trying to work out the Anglosphere component in going to Brazil (say) to study tropical medicine.

    One of my issues with the EU (as a remainer) has always been the tendency to assume that the world consists of Europe and Other Places.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,059
    Is it time to watch Die Hard (remainer) yet?
  • FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Deaths seem to be levelling off?
  • geoffw said:

    Executive summary - 34 pages.

    Anyway it's pleasing to see The Deal welcomed up here in Scotland with all the enthusiasm one could hope for.
    Here's the EU overview of what we've retained and not retained compared with full membership:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqA-P0WWMAAu3B4?format=jpg&name=small

    Obvs doesn't include what we feel we've gained in terms of freedom to do stuff that we couldn't do as members.
    That seems a fair summary. Quite a bit in the orange circles, of course.
  • ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    Really? Blimey. Take a breath
  • FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.

    I think Labour may see some slippage to the lib dems but Labour are doing the right thing
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Deaths seem to be levelling off?
    I was referring to cases per 100k.
  • I fear how I'm imagining Coley would wish to celebrate is not fit to appear before the watershed; the word rimming may come into it.

    https://twitter.com/RossMcCaff/status/1342138672834109441?s=20
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited December 2020
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    YDoethur is correct.

    It is clear from Andrew Hodges' biography that Turing was interested in young boys. Illegal still today.
    Interesting one to try and argue.

    So are we going to rename

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Go the whole hog.

    Henry VIII .
    If we want a totally inappropriate English icon, how about Edward I? Founder of England’s (as distinct from Normandy’s/Anjou’s) first proper empire?

    Plus a man who carried out an early act of genocide against the Jews.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?

    This at a time when we are trying to stamp out lecturer-student relationships in universities because they are inappropriate.

    I can’t help but feel Sophia Jex-Blake would have been an altogether more appropriate choice.
    A lot of inadvertent comedy would be stamped out along with them if they were. I remember being out to dinner late many years ago, only to recognize that the distinguished gentleman at another table entertaining a much younger female companion was a Professor of Moral Philosophy.

    Which at least meant that although he was doing wrong, he knew exactly how and why it was wrong...
    When I was at Aber a lecturer in one faculty - not mine - was caught giving higher marks in exchange for sexual favours from four female students.

    One of them had never actually had any boyfriend of any sort before he went to work on her. She was also a friend of mine and had to be talked out of suicide when his scheme was rumbled.

    Since then I have been perhaps touchy on the subject. That still doesn’t alter the fact this opens up a can of worms that need not have been opened.
    Do you know how Schrodinger selected his research assistants?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?

    This at a time when we are trying to stamp out lecturer-student relationships in universities because they are inappropriate.

    I can’t help but feel Sophia Jex-Blake would have been an altogether more appropriate choice.
    A lot of inadvertent comedy would be stamped out along with them if they were. I remember being out to dinner late many years ago, only to recognize that the distinguished gentleman at another table entertaining a much younger female companion was a Professor of Moral Philosophy.

    Which at least meant that although he was doing wrong, he knew exactly how and why it was wrong...
    When I was at Aber a lecturer in one faculty - not mine - was caught giving higher marks in exchange for sexual favours from four female students.

    One of them had never actually had any boyfriend of any sort before he went to work on her. She was also a friend of mine and had to be talked out of suicide when his scheme was rumbled.

    Since then I have been perhaps touchy on the subject. That still doesn’t alter the fact this opens up a can of worms that need not have been opened.
    Do you know how Schrodinger selected his research assistants?
    The same way Einstein did?
  • Yorkcity said:

    Ed Davey saying it is clearly possible for the government to request a further extension

    I really cannot believe he could come out with such a crass statement at 5.20pm after the deal has been announced by both sides

    Yes I agree.
    The lib dems seem to be in the same position with Ed Davey as they were with Swinson dreamland.
    The choice is no deal or this deal.
    He said they will vote against.
    They need to move on, and at least accept we have left the EU, and propose improvement to the deal or rejoin.
    I agree with Davey for reasons I have been making about Labour for a few days.

    The deal is not the silver bullet it had been sold at. The deal will make people worse off not better off. People who made this happen will take the blame. Better to call it out for what it is now.
  • gealbhan said:

    Well, I'm delighted. Truly delighted.

    I'm reading the (slightly more political) UK summary of the TCA at the moment. Will post more when I'm done.

    When Boris said in his press conference we have frictionless trade with the EU, he quite simply lied. And it’s not just extra administration and bureaucracy placed on British business (and from there on all of us) he’s lying about - heres the kicker, we have achieved absolutely nothing in return for becoming poorer. Under terms of Boris deal we can’t diverge from the EU ratchet clause and enjoy any freedom without an argument and the EU slapping tariffs on us.
    We have gained something. We can trade with the rest of the world on whatever terms we can negotiate, and without being confined by the CU's penal external tariffs.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,996
    edited December 2020
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    YDoethur is correct.

    It is clear from Andrew Hodges' biography that Turing was interested in young boys. Illegal still today.
    Interesting one to try and argue.

    So are we going to rename

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Go the whole hog.

    Henry VIII .
    If we want a totally inappropriate English icon, how about Edward I? Founder of England’s (as distinct from Normandy’s/Anjou’s) first proper empire?

    Plus a man who carried out an early act of genocide against the Jews.
    Double plus he mashed Scottish scrotums.

    I've got that right haven't I?
  • FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.

    I think Labour may see some slippage to the lib dems but Labour are doing the right thing
    Opposing or Abstaining would be a suicide mission in the north of England. Starmer may be dull, but he isn't stupid.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,361

    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Deaths seem to be levelling off?
    I would say - haven't *started* going up. Yet.
  • FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.

    I think Labour may see some slippage to the lib dems but Labour are doing the right thing
    Opposing or Abstaining would be a suicide mission in the north of England. Starmer may be dull, but he isn't stupid.
    I agree he has to vote for
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited December 2020
    Been out today. Glorious weather.

    So Brexit: who won?
  • https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1342170781728518144

    So that's that then, FOM is dead and Labour now supports the Tory immigration system.
  • TOPPING said:

    Been out today. Glorious weather.

    Who won?

    Nobody but everybody
  • Sir Patrick Vallance, the Government's Chief Scientific Officer, has a daughter named Liberty. (A John Wayne fan, clearly...)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    edited December 2020

    Yorkcity said:

    Ed Davey saying it is clearly possible for the government to request a further extension

    I really cannot believe he could come out with such a crass statement at 5.20pm after the deal has been announced by both sides

    Yes I agree.
    The lib dems seem to be in the same position with Ed Davey as they were with Swinson dreamland.
    The choice is no deal or this deal.
    He said they will vote against.
    They need to move on, and at least accept we have left the EU, and propose improvement to the deal or rejoin.
    I agree with Davey for reasons I have been making about Labour for a few days.

    The deal is not the silver bullet it had been sold at. The deal will make people worse off not better off. People who made this happen will take the blame. Better to call it out for what it is now.
    But it's Christmas. And there's a pandemic and, no doubt, a lockdown, and a recession on.
    It's one less thing to worry about.
    At least for now.
    And the one thing the PM desperately wants is a political row about Brexit.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?

    This at a time when we are trying to stamp out lecturer-student relationships in universities because they are inappropriate.

    I can’t help but feel Sophia Jex-Blake would have been an altogether more appropriate choice.
    A lot of inadvertent comedy would be stamped out along with them if they were. I remember being out to dinner late many years ago, only to recognize that the distinguished gentleman at another table entertaining a much younger female companion was a Professor of Moral Philosophy.

    Which at least meant that although he was doing wrong, he knew exactly how and why it was wrong...
    When I was at Aber a lecturer in one faculty - not mine - was caught giving higher marks in exchange for sexual favours from four female students.

    One of them had never actually had any boyfriend of any sort before he went to work on her. She was also a friend of mine and had to be talked out of suicide when his scheme was rumbled.

    Since then I have been perhaps touchy on the subject. That still doesn’t alter the fact this opens up a can of worms that need not have been opened.
    Do you know how Schrodinger selected his research assistants?
    The same way Einstein did?
    Or "Dirty Dick. Filthy Fucking Feynman".
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    TOPPING said:

    Been out today. Glorious weather.

    So Brexit: who won?

    Been snowing pretty much all day here in the NE.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,059
    TOPPING said:

    Been out today. Glorious weather.

    So Brexit: who won?

    Covid
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    YDoethur is correct.

    It is clear from Andrew Hodges' biography that Turing was interested in young boys. Illegal still today.
    Interesting one to try and argue.

    So are we going to rename

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Go the whole hog.

    Henry VIII .
    If we want a totally inappropriate English icon, how about Edward I? Founder of England’s (as distinct from Normandy’s/Anjou’s) first proper empire?

    Plus a man who carried out an early act of genocide against the Jews.
    Double plus he mashed Scottish scrotums.

    I've got that right haven't I?
    He was doing a fair job of Brechin up the Scots when he was Robbed.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited December 2020

    FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.

    I think Labour may see some slippage to the lib dems but Labour are doing the right thing
    Opposing or Abstaining would be a suicide mission in the north of England. Starmer may be dull, but he isn't stupid.
    No it wouldn't. Brexit is "done" from the perspective of most normal people, and has been "done" for some time.

    Regardless of that I think Keir is doing the right thing. Pointless opposing for the sake of it. The deal is better than no deal.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited December 2020

    Yorkcity said:

    Ed Davey saying it is clearly possible for the government to request a further extension

    I really cannot believe he could come out with such a crass statement at 5.20pm after the deal has been announced by both sides

    Yes I agree.
    The lib dems seem to be in the same position with Ed Davey as they were with Swinson dreamland.
    The choice is no deal or this deal.
    He said they will vote against.
    They need to move on, and at least accept we have left the EU, and propose improvement to the deal or rejoin.
    I agree with Davey for reasons I have been making about Labour for a few days.

    The deal is not the silver bullet it had been sold at. The deal will make people worse off not better off. People who made this happen will take the blame. Better to call it out for what it is now.
    Yes but a no deal would be terrible and make people even worse off.
    Davey and yourself are not facing the choice as it stands no deal or this deal
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Deaths seem to be levelling off?
    I was referring to cases per 100k.
    I know. But it's curious that deaths are not sky-rocketing at the same rate.
    However maybe @Malmesbury is right and it's simply the lull before they do.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    Menon and the organisation he represents always seem to give an honest and straightforward take on Brexit related events. They are one of the relatively few groups to actually improve the debate over the last few years.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    gealbhan said:

    Well, I'm delighted. Truly delighted.

    I'm reading the (slightly more political) UK summary of the TCA at the moment. Will post more when I'm done.

    When Boris said in his press conference we have frictionless trade with the EU, he quite simply lied. And it’s not just extra administration and bureaucracy placed on British business (and from there on all of us) he’s lying about - heres the kicker, we have achieved absolutely nothing in return for becoming poorer. Under terms of Boris deal we can’t diverge from the EU ratchet clause and enjoy any freedom without an argument and the EU slapping tariffs on us.
    We have gained something. We can trade with the rest of the world on whatever terms we can negotiate, and without being confined by the CU's penal external tariffs.
    This certainly doesn’t end here. It will never end until every brexiteer understands what sovereignty is. It’s a currency. You put it to work for you.

    We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens.

    What are brexiteers doing with it? Freedom? Freedom merely to put on the handcuffs of Boris Johnsons EU trade deal, and all his other similarly bodged trade deals appears to be your answer.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Been out today. Glorious weather.

    So Brexit: who won?

    Been snowing pretty much all day here in the NE.
    Yurgh.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    TOPPING said:

    Been out today. Glorious weather.

    So Brexit: who won?

    Been snowing pretty much all day here in the NE.
    Yep. Woke up to a White Christmas (Eve).
  • ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    YDoethur is correct.

    It is clear from Andrew Hodges' biography that Turing was interested in young boys. Illegal still today.
    Interesting one to try and argue.

    So are we going to rename

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Go the whole hog.

    Henry VIII .
    If we want a totally inappropriate English icon, how about Edward I? Founder of England’s (as distinct from Normandy’s/Anjou’s) first proper empire?

    Plus a man who carried out an early act of genocide against the Jews.
    If and when Scotland goes independent then I propose renaming the pound to 'Longshanks'.

    Oh and changing 'Decus et tutamen' with 'Malleus Scotorum'.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    geoffw said:

    Roger said:

    Von der Leyen excellent again.

    Yeah. Boris was pretty good too dontchyathink?

    Don't know. Can't stand him
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1342170781728518144

    So that's that then, FOM is dead and Labour now supports the Tory immigration system.

    I don't think that's necessarily true. They will likely propose modifications to the Tory system in their manifesto.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.

    I think Labour may see some slippage to the lib dems but Labour are doing the right thing
    Opposing or Abstaining would be a suicide mission in the north of England. Starmer may be dull, but he isn't stupid.
    No it wouldn't. Brexit is "done" from the perspective of most normal people, and has been "done" for some time.

    Regardless of that I think Keir is doing the right thing. Pointless opposing for the sake of it. The deal is better than no deal.
    I wonder what Jeremy would have done.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    CatMan said:

    Is it time to watch Die Hard (remainer) yet?

    Starring WilliamGlenn
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1342170781728518144

    So that's that then, FOM is dead and Labour now supports the Tory immigration system.

    FOM has been dead since December 2019.
  • After careful consideration of the details in the 2000 pages which have yet to be published.....

    https://twitter.com/scotgov/status/1342145490310328320?s=21
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    TOPPING said:

    FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.

    I think Labour may see some slippage to the lib dems but Labour are doing the right thing
    Opposing or Abstaining would be a suicide mission in the north of England. Starmer may be dull, but he isn't stupid.
    No it wouldn't. Brexit is "done" from the perspective of most normal people, and has been "done" for some time.

    Regardless of that I think Keir is doing the right thing. Pointless opposing for the sake of it. The deal is better than no deal.
    I wonder what Jeremy would have done.
    Blamed a certain mid east Country's influence?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.

    I think Labour may see some slippage to the lib dems but Labour are doing the right thing
    Opposing or Abstaining would be a suicide mission in the north of England. Starmer may be dull, but he isn't stupid.
    Agreed Corbyn did that in the 2019 GE.
    Even if he was forced into it by a delusional Lib Dem party and a all conquering SNP.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    After careful consideration of the details in the 2000 pages which have yet to be published.....

    https://twitter.com/scotgov/status/1342145490310328320?s=21

    Are you saying this was canned?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.

    I think Labour may see some slippage to the lib dems but Labour are doing the right thing
    Opposing or Abstaining would be a suicide mission in the north of England. Starmer may be dull, but he isn't stupid.
    No it wouldn't. Brexit is "done" from the perspective of most normal people, and has been "done" for some time.

    Regardless of that I think Keir is doing the right thing. Pointless opposing for the sake of it. The deal is better than no deal.
    I wonder what Jeremy would have done.
    Blamed a certain mid east Country's influence?
    Ha yes. Obvs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    FBPE Twitter now onto 'This proves Starmer was a Brexiteer all along', everyone's had far too much excitement for one day.

    I think Labour may see some slippage to the lib dems but Labour are doing the right thing
    Opposing or Abstaining would be a suicide mission in the north of England. Starmer may be dull, but he isn't stupid.
    No it wouldn't. Brexit is "done" from the perspective of most normal people, and has been "done" for some time.

    Regardless of that I think Keir is doing the right thing. Pointless opposing for the sake of it. The deal is better than no deal.
    I wonder what Jeremy would have done.
    Blamed a certain mid east Country's influence?
    Is railing against the influence of the said country a reasonable substitute for policy though?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    YDoethur is correct.

    It is clear from Andrew Hodges' biography that Turing was interested in young boys. Illegal still today.
    Interesting one to try and argue.

    So are we going to rename

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Go the whole hog.

    Henry VIII .
    If we want a totally inappropriate English icon, how about Edward I? Founder of England’s (as distinct from Normandy’s/Anjou’s) first proper empire?

    Plus a man who carried out an early act of genocide against the Jews.
    Double plus he mashed Scottish scrotums.

    I've got that right haven't I?
    scrotorum Scotorum malleus?!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Deaths seem to be levelling off?
    I was referring to cases per 100k.
    I know. But it's curious that deaths are not sky-rocketing at the same rate.
    However maybe @Malmesbury is right and it's simply the lull before they do.
    Deaths lag cases, lets hope they don't follow the trajectory
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    You killed May’s far stronger deal, and voted for Boris Bodged deal. Explain to every remain voter how that happened Keir.

    And then apologise for the mess you have made of it.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    Good that it's done.
  • ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    YDoethur is correct.

    It is clear from Andrew Hodges' biography that Turing was interested in young boys. Illegal still today.
    Interesting one to try and argue.

    So are we going to rename

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Go the whole hog.

    Henry VIII .
    If we want a totally inappropriate English icon, how about Edward I? Founder of England’s (as distinct from Normandy’s/Anjou’s) first proper empire?

    Plus a man who carried out an early act of genocide against the Jews.
    Edward the Second would be more fun: we used to remember him in the college prayer every week as "our memorable founder".
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Yep. It really is a shitstorm.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    This Dutch MEP on BBC is rather...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    gealbhan said:

    You killed May’s far stronger deal, and voted for Boris Bodged deal. Explain to every remain voter how that happened Keir.

    And then apologise for the mess you have made of it.
    Voting down May's deal was one of the many mistakes made by Remain MPs in that horrid parliament.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Yorkcity said:

    Ed Davey saying it is clearly possible for the government to request a further extension

    I really cannot believe he could come out with such a crass statement at 5.20pm after the deal has been announced by both sides

    Yes I agree.
    The lib dems seem to be in the same position with Ed Davey as they were with Swinson dreamland.
    The choice is no deal or this deal.
    He said they will vote against.
    They need to move on, and at least accept we have left the EU, and propose improvement to the deal or rejoin.
    I agree with Davey for reasons I have been making about Labour for a few days.

    The deal is not the silver bullet it had been sold at. The deal will make people worse off not better off. People who made this happen will take the blame. Better to call it out for what it is now.
    Nobody expects Davey/the LibDems to argue that this is a good deal. Certainly not that it is a better deal than being in the EU, or some closely aligned alternative like EEA/Customs Union.

    But the answer to that is to abstain on the grounds that you can't support it but also (given that you don't accept that no deal is a better than this "bad deal") won't obstruct its passage. And will work in future to improve the deal and stand on a platform of closer partnership with the EU. Particularly in areas (eg services) where the agreement is silent.

    Voting against it on the grounds that you could have "an extension" is ridiculous. Especially given that it has been a consistent argument that the UK should have no right or expectation of a decent deal given our general presumed weak negotiating position. Why would we get a better deal with an extension now?

    The sensible argument for an extension was because of COVID. It's pretty pointless now a deal has been done. That's not to say that he couldn't argue for flexibility as businesses come to terms with what they can and can't do under the new rules, and accept that there will inevitably be treaty breaches as the new arrangements bed in (not least because of the lack of customs preparedness on our side - can't speak for the EU)
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?

    This at a time when we are trying to stamp out lecturer-student relationships in universities because they are inappropriate.

    I can’t help but feel Sophia Jex-Blake would have been an altogether more appropriate choice.
    A lot of inadvertent comedy would be stamped out along with them if they were. I remember being out to dinner late many years ago, only to recognize that the distinguished gentleman at another table entertaining a much younger female companion was a Professor of Moral Philosophy.

    Which at least meant that although he was doing wrong, he knew exactly how and why it was wrong...
    When I was at Aber a lecturer in one faculty - not mine - was caught giving higher marks in exchange for sexual favours from four female students.

    One of them had never actually had any boyfriend of any sort before he went to work on her. She was also a friend of mine and had to be talked out of suicide when his scheme was rumbled.

    Since then I have been perhaps touchy on the subject. That still doesn’t alter the fact this opens up a can of worms that need not have been opened.
    Do you know how Schrodinger selected his research assistants?
    I assume it involved a box and a sample of poison attached to a Geiger counter?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    TOPPING said:

    Been out today. Glorious weather.

    So Brexit: who won?

    We all lost.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited December 2020

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    YDoethur is correct.

    It is clear from Andrew Hodges' biography that Turing was interested in young boys. Illegal still today.
    Interesting one to try and argue.

    So are we going to rename

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Go the whole hog.

    Henry VIII .
    If we want a totally inappropriate English icon, how about Edward I? Founder of England’s (as distinct from Normandy’s/Anjou’s) first proper empire?

    Plus a man who carried out an early act of genocide against the Jews.
    Edward the Second would be more fun: we used to remember him in the college prayer every week as "our memorable founder".
    Blimey, your college had a very strange criteria for memorable. His reign was so forgettable eventually people forgot he was on the throne and Roger Mortimer took over.

    About the only memorable thing about him is the alleged method of execution his wife decided to use on him.

    Edit - incidentally, I assume that was Oriel? As it’s stretching a point to call him the founder of Trinity.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    After careful consideration of the details in the 2000 pages which have yet to be published.....

    https://twitter.com/scotgov/status/1342145490310328320?s=21

    Boris could have said -hold on this is a big mistake lets remain and she would argue this proves Scotland needs independence

    You can also bet that if Scotland were leaving the UK she would not be saying "disrupting the economy"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?

    This at a time when we are trying to stamp out lecturer-student relationships in universities because they are inappropriate.

    I can’t help but feel Sophia Jex-Blake would have been an altogether more appropriate choice.
    A lot of inadvertent comedy would be stamped out along with them if they were. I remember being out to dinner late many years ago, only to recognize that the distinguished gentleman at another table entertaining a much younger female companion was a Professor of Moral Philosophy.

    Which at least meant that although he was doing wrong, he knew exactly how and why it was wrong...
    When I was at Aber a lecturer in one faculty - not mine - was caught giving higher marks in exchange for sexual favours from four female students.

    One of them had never actually had any boyfriend of any sort before he went to work on her. She was also a friend of mine and had to be talked out of suicide when his scheme was rumbled.

    Since then I have been perhaps touchy on the subject. That still doesn’t alter the fact this opens up a can of worms that need not have been opened.
    Do you know how Schrodinger selected his research assistants?
    I don't know. Are you going to let the cat out of the bag?
    That joke died on its feet.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    Sir Patrick Vallance, the Government's Chief Scientific Officer, has a daughter named Liberty. (A John Wayne fan, clearly...)

    Did they do a Posh and Becks?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    gealbhan said:

    You killed May’s far stronger deal, and voted for Boris Bodged deal. Explain to every remain voter how that happened Keir.

    And then apologise for the mess you have made of it.
    Rubbish
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Yep. It really is a shitstorm.
    When you say that it worries me even more.......
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    gealbhan said:

    You killed May’s far stronger deal, and voted for Boris Bodged deal. Explain to every remain voter how that happened Keir.

    And then apologise for the mess you have made of it.
    Now, now, there's no evidence that Starmer ever had anything to do with shooting Remain twice in the back of the head by mistake...

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/960587655875629057
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1342170781728518144

    So that's that then, FOM is dead and Labour now supports the Tory immigration system.

    I don't think that's necessarily true. They will likely propose modifications to the Tory system in their manifesto.
    Quite. Acceptance and implementation of the deal doesn't mean that it is set in stone for ever. There are huge areas where the deal is silent. Many will involve things which could be developed in future to the mutual benefit of both sides. "Improving it" doesn't mean changing the current deal. It means building on it in future.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Deaths seem to be levelling off?
    I was referring to cases per 100k.
    I know. But it's curious that deaths are not sky-rocketing at the same rate.
    However maybe @Malmesbury is right and it's simply the lull before they do.
    This morning's data showed the bulk of the increase in cases in younger cohorts. Maybe that explains a possible disconnect between cases and deaths?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Deaths seem to be levelling off?
    I was referring to cases per 100k.
    I know. But it's curious that deaths are not sky-rocketing at the same rate.
    However maybe @Malmesbury is right and it's simply the lull before they do.
    Deaths lag cases, lets hope they don't follow the trajectory
    What are hospitalisations showing? Cases -> hospitalisations -> Deaths
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?

    This at a time when we are trying to stamp out lecturer-student relationships in universities because they are inappropriate.

    I can’t help but feel Sophia Jex-Blake would have been an altogether more appropriate choice.
    A lot of inadvertent comedy would be stamped out along with them if they were. I remember being out to dinner late many years ago, only to recognize that the distinguished gentleman at another table entertaining a much younger female companion was a Professor of Moral Philosophy.

    Which at least meant that although he was doing wrong, he knew exactly how and why it was wrong...
    When I was at Aber a lecturer in one faculty - not mine - was caught giving higher marks in exchange for sexual favours from four female students.

    One of them had never actually had any boyfriend of any sort before he went to work on her. She was also a friend of mine and had to be talked out of suicide when his scheme was rumbled.

    Since then I have been perhaps touchy on the subject. That still doesn’t alter the fact this opens up a can of worms that need not have been opened.
    Do you know how Schrodinger selected his research assistants?
    I don't know. Are you going to let the cat out of the bag?
    Correct. Pussy was involved.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited December 2020
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    Why not?
    Don’t you think it’s slightly odd that it was named after an older man who went around picking up teenage boys?
    I think the evidence is he had a relationship with a 19 year old which appears consensual? And not a student.

    https://www.thejusticegap.com/alan-turing-and-the-condemnation-of-the-criminal-law/
    YDoethur is correct.

    It is clear from Andrew Hodges' biography that Turing was interested in young boys. Illegal still today.
    Interesting one to try and argue.

    So are we going to rename

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:
    However well-intentioned, I am really not sure I would have named it after Alan Turing.
    It's offensive to try to appropriate his name for something like this to score culture war points.
    What? lol.
    What a strange comment from williamglenn
    The ideology behind the decision is to favourise the development among young people of an Anglophobe identity instead of a European identity. Why bring Alan Turing into it? @RobD's alternative of Rhodes would have at least had the right historical resonance.
    Go the whole hog.

    Henry VIII .
    If we want a totally inappropriate English icon, how about Edward I? Founder of England’s (as distinct from Normandy’s/Anjou’s) first proper empire?

    Plus a man who carried out an early act of genocide against the Jews.
    Edward the Second would be more fun: we used to remember him in the college prayer every week as "our memorable founder".
    Blimey, your college had a very strange criteria for memorable. His reign was so forgettable eventually people forgot he was on the throne and Roger Mortimer took over.

    About the only memorable thing about him is the alleged method of execution his wife decided to use on him.

    Edit - incidentally, I assume that was Oriel? As it’s stretching a point to call him the founder of Trinity.
    Memorable is the sort of non-committal adjective I feel I should use in my reports or references.

    I'll never beat my old boss who started a reference on a particularly difficult student with "NAME is very tall."
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    gealbhan said:

    You killed May’s far stronger deal, and voted for Boris Bodged deal. Explain to every remain voter how that happened Keir.

    And then apologise for the mess you have made of it.
    Rubbish
    Which particular bit?

    You think Boris deal stronger than Mays?

    You think Labour didn’t kill off May’s deal and then vote for Boris?

    I’m dealing in facts here.

    The fact is the Labour Party have made a mess of their role in this, need to hold their hand up and apologise this evening.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Floater said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Crumbs. @Malmesbury's figures for the Thames Estuary are eye watering. There is some pretty scary doubling going on down there.

    Yep. It really is a shitstorm.
    When you say that it worries me even more.......
    It looks absolutely awful to any lay person who can read off the numbers, let alone hospital doctors.

    Oh, and on my latest hobbyhorse...

    Schools and universities may need to close, on top of tier 4 restrictions, to bring the new UK coronavirus variant under control, a rapid analysis says.

    The work, which is still preliminary, calculates the variant is spreading 56% faster than other forms of the virus.

    The researchers at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine say whether schools can stay open is the key question for the New Year.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55437283
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    gealbhan said:

    You killed May’s far stronger deal, and voted for Boris Bodged deal. Explain to every remain voter how that happened Keir.

    And then apologise for the mess you have made of it.
    This might actually be better in some ways that May's deal. Hers was an easy and comfortable deal. This isn't that.

    Clearly the detail is unknown and Boris will have sold out on some issues, and more important ones than fish. I think though he's achieved the basic task which was actually just making us independent.

    I think historians will reckon that the EU got the better end of the stick, but that was always going to be the case. The stick is though still in play.

    Whatever you think of Boris, this is one of his better days.

  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    RobD said:

    gealbhan said:

    You killed May’s far stronger deal, and voted for Boris Bodged deal. Explain to every remain voter how that happened Keir.

    And then apologise for the mess you have made of it.
    Voting down May's deal was one of the many mistakes made by Remain MPs in that horrid parliament.
    Clearly Captain Hindsight is rubbish at the hindsight thing if he doesn’t agree with you.
  • 1 of 2

    So, I've now read the TCA summary by HMG. It's worth noting this is a more political document, designed to summarise and sell the Deal here, but it's still worth a read. Key takeaway for me is that both sides have put down markers to build on it in the medium-term. So it's not necessarily quite as "thin" as it will end up becoming:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948093/TCA_SUMMARY_PDF.pdf

    Goods and agriculture - comprehensive. Zeros tariffs or quotas on goods meeting "rules of origin" standards, which both sides have agreed to keep as unbureaucratic as possible. It includes manufactured goods, agriculture, wine, organics, chemicals, plants, animals etc. Crucially, for the car industry, both the EU and UK have agreed that each others inputs will count "vice-versa" cumulatively towards rules of origin - which should preserve some pan-European supply chains. The main costs now will be ROO compliance checks and customs checks. But both the EU and UK have agreed a 'trusted trader' scheme that should mean only 1-2% spot checks and bureaucracy minimised. This will be particularly focused on Dover and Holyhead to assist roll-on and roll-off. They've also agree to share import and export data in the longer-term (sounds like a bit like some of Theresa's customs 'arrangement' to me) to make that even easier. Lorries can go to/from
    UK and EU and make further subsequent movements, with limitations.

    Aviation and Energy - Aviation is closely knit. Aviation basics are all there on airline operation and more to come in future on maintenance provision, personnel exchange and air traffic cooperation. Energy, electricity/gas/ and renewable interconnectors and cooperation on renewables and climate change as you'd expect.

    Business/short-term visitors - EHIC healthcare scheme continues. Short-term visitors
    for 90 days and temp entry/stay is facilitated. I'd imagine if this has been agreed then we'll also be able to use the EEA/Switzerland passport routes too - TBC.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    edited December 2020
    2 of 2

    Security and policing - Lots on police databases, Eurojust, extradition (within reason) etc. not quite the same as EAW but probably enough

    Data and services - not entirely true to say there's nothing. Mutual recognition of professional qualifications is in there. Legal services trade agreed in principle, subject to EU member state limitations which were already extensive of course. It looks like financial services are TBC but both parties have committed to discuss further and codify in an MoU in future - worth noting. Data flows seem pretty liberal cross-border. Public procurement will be different in UK based on WTO but UK and EU will be able to participate mutually, and these new rules will be extended into some big private sector providers too.

    Fish - looks like the UK did concede to the EU's final offer on fish of 25% at the end but phased in over 5.5 years.

    Migration - future agreement to discuss asylum and border control collaboration.

    EU programmes - UK will participate in Horizon, Euratom and Copernicus but not Erasmus - Turing instead. Note, there will be a UK financial contribution here. Not zero. Amount TBC.

    Governance - cross retaliation is in there - it says it's limited in scope and we await the details - I presume it's also subject to arbitration to an extent but TBC. Reciprocal mechanism when subsidy causing significant harm with state aid subsidies but both will follow broad principles agreed with the other. Partnership council to govern whole agreement. Review every 5 years. Exit clause of 12 months (new Article 50). Gibraltar is outstanding, and currently excluded.
  • Floater said:

    After careful consideration of the details in the 2000 pages which have yet to be published.....

    https://twitter.com/scotgov/status/1342145490310328320?s=21

    Boris could have said -hold on this is a big mistake lets remain and she would argue this proves Scotland needs independence

    You can also bet that if Scotland were leaving the UK she would not be saying "disrupting the economy"
    Strange, your own government (ie the one Wangland voted for) seems to think there will be disruption to the economy.

    'The government’s own analysis forecasts that a no-deal Brexit would reduce UK GDP by 7.6% after 15 years, while reaching a free trade agreement (FTA) with the EU would lead to a 4.9% decline.'

    https://tinyurl.com/y7resqc6
This discussion has been closed.