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Even today with the Electoral College meeting Betfair punters rate Trump’s chances at 3% – political

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  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    edited December 2020

    MaxPB said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    That's a huge climb down from the EU. They wanted unilateral rights to set tariffs, having a treaty level mechanism means they will be bound by specific rules on what each side is able to do in the case of divergence. As in they have capitulated to a UK demand.

    You keep pushing this capitulatin narrative but you have no idea what it actually means. In all recent examples the EU has moved towards the UK. On NI they agreed to the trusted trader scheme (a UK proposal), on subsidies they agreed that EU funding counts as state aid (a huge sticking point for the UK), on divergence they've agreed that both sides will have the right to apply tariffs (a key UK demand), on those tariffs they're now proposing treaty rules and mechanisms for setting them (another key UK demand) rather than unilateral right.

    On all major points both sides have negotiated well in this round and on balance the EU has given up much more than the UK.

    Anyway, you continue to push the Boris capitulation narrative if it makes you feel better about it all, the reality on the ground is that the EU have given up hugely on both the LPF and governance and it looks like fishing will have a 4-6 year transition and then we'll have a Norway style agreement on it.
    Didn't Richard Nabavi point out the other day that the trusted trader scheme proposed by the UK was actually intended for the Eire/NI border, while there wasn't supposed to be a GB/NI border? Oh well, I suppose we can take the use of the trusted trader scheme as a win, even if it does apply to the border that we didn't actually want!
    And that's a compromise we've made. I think it's fair and what it does is remove the border for 98% of trade/traders. At that point it doesn't matter where the border is when it only applies in practice to 2%.

    I think what it shows is that when both sides are ready to compromise then an agreeable end result is available. It almost seems as though the LPF might end up being a reasonable solution for both parties. I hope it will be anyway and that unlocks the deal.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited December 2020
    The other issue that will really upset those who want to remain is that an agreement with the EU and the vaccine rollout, Boris may well see quite a bounce in the polls
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    You must have missed my question to you the first time round.
    What happens if the SNP do get an absolute majority?
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    That's a huge climb down from the EU. They wanted unilateral rights to set tariffs, having a treaty level mechanism means they will be bound by specific rules on what each side is able to do in the case of divergence. As in they have capitulated to a UK demand.

    You keep pushing this capitulatin narrative but you have no idea what it actually means. In all recent examples the EU has moved towards the UK. On NI they agreed to the trusted trader scheme (a UK proposal), on subsidies they agreed that EU funding counts as state aid (a huge sticking point for the UK), on divergence they've agreed that both sides will have the right to apply tariffs (a key UK demand), on those tariffs they're now proposing treaty rules and mechanisms for setting them (another key UK demand) rather than unilateral right.

    On all major points both sides have negotiated well in this round and on balance the EU has given up much more than the UK.

    Anyway, you continue to push the Boris capitulation narrative if it makes you feel better about it all, the reality on the ground is that the EU have given up hugely on both the LPF and governance and it looks like fishing will have a 4-6 year transition and then we'll have a Norway style agreement on it.
    Didn't Richard Nabavi point out the other day that the trusted trader scheme proposed by the UK was actually intended for the Eire/NI border, while there wasn't supposed to be a GB/NI border? Oh well, I suppose we can take the use of the trusted trader scheme as a win, even if it does apply to the border that we didn't actually want!
    And that's a compromise we've made. I think it's fair and what it does is remove the border for 98% of trade/traders. At that point it doesn't matter where the border is when it only applies in practice to 2%.
    I seem to remember that the weasel words "up to" came before "98%".
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    Looks like Wales have royally fecked up their reporting system. Nothing yesterday, and only 1,228 today, which isn't credible after 2,021 last Monday and trends in previous days.

    Also, their latest alert levels are still nationwide. Surely it should at least be divided into north, south, and the empty middle?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    Frankly, if the UK and the EU can't get to a deal now, they should both have their Negotiator's Licences revoked. There is nothing more for either side to achieve that is worth the massive downside of not doing a deal.

    Unless Merkel really does want to use Boris as her personal footstool. The EU have been badly served by their contacts in the British Remainer Establishment if they ever thought was going to be the level of their win.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    That's a huge climb down from the EU. They wanted unilateral rights to set tariffs, having a treaty level mechanism means they will be bound by specific rules on what each side is able to do in the case of divergence. As in they have capitulated to a UK demand.

    You keep pushing this capitulatin narrative but you have no idea what it actually means. In all recent examples the EU has moved towards the UK. On NI they agreed to the trusted trader scheme (a UK proposal), on subsidies they agreed that EU funding counts as state aid (a huge sticking point for the UK), on divergence they've agreed that both sides will have the right to apply tariffs (a key UK demand), on those tariffs they're now proposing treaty rules and mechanisms for setting them (another key UK demand) rather than unilateral right.

    On all major points both sides have negotiated well in this round and on balance the EU has given up much more than the UK.

    Anyway, you continue to push the Boris capitulation narrative if it makes you feel better about it all, the reality on the ground is that the EU have given up hugely on both the LPF and governance and it looks like fishing will have a 4-6 year transition and then we'll have a Norway style agreement on it.
    Didn't Richard Nabavi point out the other day that the trusted trader scheme proposed by the UK was actually intended for the Eire/NI border, while there wasn't supposed to be a GB/NI border? Oh well, I suppose we can take the use of the trusted trader scheme as a win, even if it does apply to the border that we didn't actually want!
    And that's a compromise we've made. I think it's fair and what it does is remove the border for 98% of trade/traders. At that point it doesn't matter where the border is when it only applies in practice to 2%.
    I seem to remember that the weasel words "up to" came before "98%".
    That's probably scheme eligibility which means the applications will need to be made to be part of it. I'm sure everyone will want to get in if they are eligible.
  • johntjohnt Posts: 166
    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    Funny - I was reading yesterday that the EU has dropped the ratchet approach - have they capitulated too?
    Its called negotiation.
    The EU's movement consists of finding a different way to package the same thing in a way that makes it presentationally acceptable to the UK government. That's not the same as a concession on the substance.
    It’s neither. Both sides are actually moving. It’s a genuine compromise. I understand how this might upset remoaners who desire nothing but British defeat and surrender but what can you do. Yours is a pathology
    They can't bear the idea that the UK and EU are equals in anything, the EU must always be more powerful or better. That isn't the case and it never has been. One of the reasons we're in this position is Barnier actually believing that and it's taken UVdL sidelining him to unlock a deal.
    Personally I will judge the deal (if there is one) on what it says and if it is good for the UK. I have a fundamental problem with the basis of a Canadian style deal because as far as I am concerned it is a good deal for the EU and a bad deal for the UK.

    Canada gives the EU pretty much all they need and does nothing for large parts of the UK economy. It is just a very bad basis for a deal for the UK.

    Of course the leavers always seek to personalise it and put it into jingoistic terms as if somehow that changes the situation. It doesn't.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    Interesting article in my opinion.

    "How race politics liberated the elites
    If society is taken to be inherently oppressive, the notion of a common good disappears
    BY MATTHEW CRAWFORD"

    https://unherd.com/2020/12/how-race-politics-liberated-the-elites/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    Funny - I was reading yesterday that the EU has dropped the ratchet approach - have they capitulated too?
    Its called negotiation.
    The EU's movement consists of finding a different way to package the same thing in a way that makes it presentationally acceptable to the UK government. That's not the same as a concession on the substance.
    It’s neither. Both sides are actually moving. It’s a genuine compromise. I understand how this might upset remoaners who desire nothing but British defeat and surrender but what can you do. Yours is a pathology
    They can't bear the idea that the UK and EU are equals in anything, the EU must always be more powerful or better. That isn't the case and it never has been. One of the reasons we're in this position is Barnier actually believing that and it's taken UVdL sidelining him to unlock a deal.
    Tbf I think the EU - courtesy of Macron - took a maximalist position and refused to cave to the 11th hour, believing we would yield and they would win all. A fair enough position, given their relative strength.

    As it happens Boris is a bit bonkers and refused to surrender, so the EU has budged, somewhat, to a stance they would probably have accepted anyway. It’s not a triumph for either side (if it happens) tho both sides will sell it thus. It’s a negotiated deal. Is all. But it’s enough. Let’s hope it works.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703

    Nigelb said:

    Academic institutions (from primary though to tertiary) can be particularly prone to bullying problems, thanks to the power of managers over the careers of those under them.

    Imperial College London leaders admit they bullied colleagues
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/dec/14/imperial-college-london-executives-admit-they-bullied-colleagues-alice-gast

    The earlier attempt to brush everything under the carpet is not unusual, either.
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/dec/07/imperial-college-accused-of-cover-up-over-claims-of-bullying-by-president

    One of the curious things (also true in this example) is that it is successful female academics who often end up being accused of bullying.

    I suspect some of the claims of bullying against female academics have some elements of gender bias or misogyny.
    We are not allowed to know what constitues "bullying" in this case, it seems.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    Funny - I was reading yesterday that the EU has dropped the ratchet approach - have they capitulated too?
    Its called negotiation.
    The EU's movement consists of finding a different way to package the same thing in a way that makes it presentationally acceptable to the UK government. That's not the same as a concession on the substance.
    It’s neither. Both sides are actually moving. It’s a genuine compromise. I understand how this might upset remoaners who desire nothing but British defeat and surrender but what can you do. Yours is a pathology
    They can't bear the idea that the UK and EU are equals in anything, the EU must always be more powerful or better. That isn't the case and it never has been. One of the reasons we're in this position is Barnier actually believing that and it's taken UVdL sidelining him to unlock a deal.
    To be fair, Barnier was for a long time encouraged in that view by Theresa May and "bobbins" Robbins on the other side....
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Gaussian said:

    Looks like Wales have royally fecked up their reporting system. Nothing yesterday, and only 1,228 today, which isn't credible after 2,021 last Monday and trends in previous days.

    Also, their latest alert levels are still nationwide. Surely it should at least be divided into north, south, and the empty middle?

    I expect dividing Wales (which obviously makes sense) would be very embarrassing for Mark.

    He has fecked up most in the Labour heartlands.

    Leaving the Valleys in the grimmest lockdown whilst Mid and North Wales are loosened would not be a good look.
  • Frankly, if the UK and the EU can't get to a deal now, they should both have their Negotiator's Licences revoked. There is nothing more for either side to achieve that is worth the massive downside of not doing a deal.

    Unless Merkel really does want to use Boris as her personal footstool. The EU have been badly served by their contacts in the British Remainer Establishment if they ever thought was going to be the level of their win.

    I'm not sure it is necessarily the fault of the negotiators or, indeed, anyone if there is no deal. It could simply reflect a situation in which there is no common ground between the participants on which to build a deal, and a good negotiator would, presumably, recognise that.
  • It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    So what are you waiting for? There's a pro-indy majority at Holyrood RIGHT NOW THIS MINUTE.

    Denying it exists [edit] in terms of a moral imperative on the London regime is remarkable even by your standards of goalpost-moving.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    Funny - I was reading yesterday that the EU has dropped the ratchet approach - have they capitulated too?
    Its called negotiation.
    The EU's movement consists of finding a different way to package the same thing in a way that makes it presentationally acceptable to the UK government. That's not the same as a concession on the substance.
    It’s neither. Both sides are actually moving. It’s a genuine compromise. I understand how this might upset remoaners who desire nothing but British defeat and surrender but what can you do. Yours is a pathology
    They can't bear the idea that the UK and EU are equals in anything, the EU must always be more powerful or better. That isn't the case and it never has been. One of the reasons we're in this position is Barnier actually believing that and it's taken UVdL sidelining him to unlock a deal.
    Tbf I think the EU - courtesy of Macron - took a maximalist position and refused to cave to the 11th hour, believing we would yield and they would win all. A fair enough position, given their relative strength.

    As it happens Boris is a bit bonkers and refused to surrender, so the EU has budged, somewhat, to a stance they would probably have accepted anyway. It’s not a triumph for either side (if it happens) tho both sides will sell it thus. It’s a negotiated deal. Is all. But it’s enough. Let’s hope it works.
    I think our remainers encouraged that view, very much like Edward VIII writing to Hitler and telling him to continue bombing London because the British would eventually sue for peace.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,889

    The other issue that will really upset those who want to remain is that an agreement with the EU and the vaccine rollout, Boris may well see quite a bounce in the polls

    Maybe. But most people will remember that Johnson and his useless cronies have been the biggest obstacle to the earlier solution of both challenges.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    You must have missed my question to you the first time round.
    What happens if the SNP do get an absolute majority?
    Absolutely nothing. You will have to go whistle for your referendum because Boris will refuse until the next GE. what will you do then? Complain to the headmaster?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    Academic institutions (from primary though to tertiary) can be particularly prone to bullying problems, thanks to the power of managers over the careers of those under them.

    Imperial College London leaders admit they bullied colleagues
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/dec/14/imperial-college-london-executives-admit-they-bullied-colleagues-alice-gast

    The earlier attempt to brush everything under the carpet is not unusual, either.
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/dec/07/imperial-college-accused-of-cover-up-over-claims-of-bullying-by-president

    One of the curious things (also true in this example) is that it is successful female academics who often end up being accused of bullying.

    I suspect some of the claims of bullying against female academics have some elements of gender bias or misogyny.
    We are not allowed to know what constitues "bullying" in this case, it seems.
    Agreed. Or, even who the "senior colleague" is. Or, the level of seniority.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
    You begin to wonder whether there is something about sitting alone and writing stuff that, sooner or later, sends people a bit mad.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Carnyx said:


    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    So what are you waiting for? There's a pro-indy majority at Holyrood RIGHT NOW THIS MINUTE.

    Denying it exists [edit] in terms of a moral imperative on the London regime is remarkable even by your standards of goalpost-moving.
    So call another fucking indyref then, you pathetic oat-eating jerks
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited December 2020
    IanB2 said:

    It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
    You begin to wonder whether there is something about sitting alone and writing stuff that, sooner or later, sends people a bit mad.
    I think that's where nubile, lefty, much younger brides can help.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    LadyG said:

    Carnyx said:


    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    So what are you waiting for? There's a pro-indy majority at Holyrood RIGHT NOW THIS MINUTE.

    Denying it exists [edit] in terms of a moral imperative on the London regime is remarkable even by your standards of goalpost-moving.
    So call another fucking indyref then, you pathetic oat-eating jerks
    You've just told us we can't have one. Be at least consistent, there's a good boy.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    felix said:

    The bigger lol is going to be good old Sir Keith voting through Boris' Deal...
    I'm unsure which is going to anger the 'remainiacs' the most - the faux outrage over no deal or the real outrage over a deal?
    I think you'll know the 'remainiacs' (nice move on the conciliation front btw) are angry when the Guardian has front pages about them sending the gunboats in.
    You're welcome.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Interesting article in my opinion.

    "How race politics liberated the elites
    If society is taken to be inherently oppressive, the notion of a common good disappears
    BY MATTHEW CRAWFORD"

    https://unherd.com/2020/12/how-race-politics-liberated-the-elites/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

    In this country the notion of the common good was junked under Thatcher, who wasn't a notable racial justice warrior as far as I recall. The elites liberated themselves from the notion of the common good, led by their own greed. I suspect the main structural factor was the fading of memories of WW2, which had briefly imposed a sense of solidarity and common decency on the ruling classes. The timelines are completely out for the argument in this piece to have even a degree of plausibility.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,268
    Carnyx said:


    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    So what are you waiting for? There's a pro-indy majority at Holyrood RIGHT NOW THIS MINUTE.

    Denying it exists [edit] in terms of a moral imperative on the London regime is remarkable even by your standards of goalpost-moving.
    2014 was a once in a generation referendum, as confirmed by both Salmond and Sturgeon at the time, Boris is merely respecting that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlGplW4SQc

    https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1158308717961592832?s=20
  • IanB2 said:

    It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
    You begin to wonder whether there is something about sitting alone and writing stuff that, sooner or later, sends people a bit mad.
    At least she's getting paid for it!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    The eventual UK-EU deal will be perhaps the first trade agreement in history to envisage more friction rather than less, less economic cooperation and regulatory alignment rather than more. Both sides will be worse off because of it, though the UK is three times as exposed and will be the biggest loser. It suits Johnson to define success as having any deal rather than no deal – a threat that was a political hoax all along. And it suits the Labour party, which has come to believe that voting for Johnson’s deal is in its electoral interest. Titillated by the drama, British political commentators have played their part too, focusing on the fact of a deal rather than the quality of it. As has always been the case with Brexit, there was never a betrayal of Britain in Brussels; that only happens at Westminster.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/13/brexit-deadline-drama-uk-bad-deal-trade-agreement-friction
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
    She's desperate to be 'cancelled'. She has a book to promote and nothing like a good cancelling to start your PR drive. Sure fire way to get on every radio show and a few TV spots as well.

    Have to say that Rod Liddle coming out as a nonce hasn't got as much comment as I was expecting.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    IanB2 said:

    It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
    You begin to wonder whether there is something about sitting alone and writing stuff that, sooner or later, sends people a bit mad.
    Says poster with a history of THIRTY THOUSAND comments on PB
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited December 2020
    LadyG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    You must have missed my question to you the first time round.
    What happens if the SNP do get an absolute majority?
    Absolutely nothing. You will have to go whistle for your referendum because Boris will refuse until the next GE. what will you do then? Complain to the headmaster?
    I'm sorry to distract you from your obsession with the size of the UK's national penis, but I was asking the person who seems to think the SNP having an absolute majority is important, not you. His opinion on the matter is about as crucial as yours, but it is his point, ergo..
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    ClippP said:

    The other issue that will really upset those who want to remain is that an agreement with the EU and the vaccine rollout, Boris may well see quite a bounce in the polls

    Maybe. But most people will remember that Johnson and his useless cronies have been the biggest obstacle to the earlier solution of both challenges.
    Why do you LDs always confuse yourselves with 'most people'? Come out of the telephone box!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    CNN: All 50 states and the District of Columbia have certified their presidential results, according to CNN's tally, as the Electoral College process moves ahead today with the meeting of electors.

    The electors are required by law to convene on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December, which this year is Dec. 14. The electors' votes are later transmitted to officials and counted in a joint session of Congress on Jan. 6.
  • Let's guess the length of a generation.

    Reasonable views may suggest it's between 25 and 35 years. Not 7. You've got a long wait SNP!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:


    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    So what are you waiting for? There's a pro-indy majority at Holyrood RIGHT NOW THIS MINUTE.

    Denying it exists [edit] in terms of a moral imperative on the London regime is remarkable even by your standards of goalpost-moving.
    2014 was a once in a generation referendum, as confirmed by both Salmond and Sturgeon at the time, Boris is merely respecting that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlGplW4SQc

    https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1158308717961592832?s=20
    I'm ashamed to be on the same discussion groip as a self-proclaimed Conservative who pretends that obiter dicta are binding laws. The current Prime Minister's own statements on Brexit over the last 5 years, for instance ...

  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    TOPPING said:

    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
    You begin to wonder whether there is something about sitting alone and writing stuff that, sooner or later, sends people a bit mad.
    Says poster with a history of THIRTY THOUSAND comments on PB
    Perhaps there is a way to delete his entire posting history so that it only looks as though he has posted a couple of thousand times.
    If there is, he hasn’t guessed it yet.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    LadyG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    You must have missed my question to you the first time round.
    What happens if the SNP do get an absolute majority?
    Absolutely nothing. You will have to go whistle for your referendum because Boris will refuse until the next GE. what will you do then? Complain to the headmaster?
    I'm sorry to distract you from your obsession with the size of the UK's national penis, but I was asking the person who seems to think the SNP having an absolute majority is important, not you. His opinion on the matter is about as crucial as yours, but it is his point, ergo..
    While you are at it, ask him why the Scottish Greens don't count (but Don't Knows do).
  • Alistair said:

    It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
    She's desperate to be 'cancelled'. She has a book to promote and nothing like a good cancelling to start your PR drive. Sure fire way to get on every radio show and a few TV spots as well.

    Have to say that Rod Liddle coming out as a nonce hasn't got as much comment as I was expecting.
    Be fair, I think he said he'd keep to the age of consent. There used to be a poster on here that thought restricting himself to teenage Thai prostitutes at age 16 and above made everything ok.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,268
    Carnyx said:

    LadyG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    You must have missed my question to you the first time round.
    What happens if the SNP do get an absolute majority?
    Absolutely nothing. You will have to go whistle for your referendum because Boris will refuse until the next GE. what will you do then? Complain to the headmaster?
    I'm sorry to distract you from your obsession with the size of the UK's national penis, but I was asking the person who seems to think the SNP having an absolute majority is important, not you. His opinion on the matter is about as crucial as yours, but it is his point, ergo..
    While you are at it, ask him why the Scottish Greens don't count (but Don't Knows do).
    Westminster and Westminster alone will decide, there was an absolute SNP majority in 2011 that led to indyref2, if the SNP cannot even repeat that in 2021 they have zero chance of Westminster allowing another referendum, not that that is likely even if they do
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    LadyG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    You must have missed my question to you the first time round.
    What happens if the SNP do get an absolute majority?
    Absolutely nothing. You will have to go whistle for your referendum because Boris will refuse until the next GE. what will you do then? Complain to the headmaster?
    I'm sorry to distract you from your obsession with the size of the UK's national penis, but I was asking the person who seems to think the SNP having an absolute majority is important, not you. His opinion on the matter is about as crucial as yours, but it is his point, ergo..
    While you are at it, ask him why the Scottish Greens don't count (but Don't Knows do).
    Westminster and Westminster alone will decide, there was an absolute SNP majority in 2011 that led to indyref2, if the SNP cannot even repeat that in 2021 they have zero chance of Westminster allowing another referendum, not that that is likely even if they do
    C'mon, you know you can find the balls to give a hostage to fortune if you really grit your teeth.
    If the SNP get an overall majority, a zero chance of Westminster allowing another referendum goes up to what chance?
  • LadyG said:

    Hello pb. Can anyone help me with this uni logic question? My niece is really struggling and says it’s desperate.

    My philosophy logic is 30 years old and very rusty. All advice welcome

    https://twitter.com/catullus88/status/1338473774157598720?s=21

    The answer to 2a is no. P <--> Q is true if both P and Q are true or P and Q are false, otherwise false. However, if P is false and Q is true then P -> Q is true, which makes the whole thing true through the alternation operator. So the second allows a false P but a true Q; the first doesn't. I hope that's clear.
  • Let's guess the length of a generation.

    Reasonable views may suggest it's between 25 and 35 years. Not 7. You've got a long wait SNP!

    A bit too long.
    "... calculating how long a generation lasts is not an exact science, and there’s no simple formula. If you look at the generally recognized generations, you could say there have been 6 generations in the last 100 years between 1920 and 2020: GI Generation, Silent Generation, Baby Boomers, Generation X, Millennials, and Gen Z."

    So maybe 16?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
    You begin to wonder whether there is something about sitting alone and writing stuff that, sooner or later, sends people a bit mad.
    Says poster with a history of THIRTY THOUSAND comments on PB
    Would you advise a regeneration every 10,000 posts to avoid the prospect of humiliation?
  • HYUFD said:
    I wonder which bit of which country 23% of the UK think we’ve lost; Calais? Corfu? The Balearic Islands?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    Wot? No three day pre-Tier 3 lockdown party? Outrageous.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    Let's guess the length of a generation.

    Reasonable views may suggest it's between 25 and 35 years. Not 7. You've got a long wait SNP!

    To be fair, on some Scottish housing estates it might be 14.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    LadyG said:

    Carnyx said:


    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    So what are you waiting for? There's a pro-indy majority at Holyrood RIGHT NOW THIS MINUTE.

    Denying it exists [edit] in terms of a moral imperative on the London regime is remarkable even by your standards of goalpost-moving.
    So call another fucking indyref then, you pathetic oat-eating jerks
    Oops luv, yer slip's showing....
  • The other issue that will really upset those who want to remain is that an agreement with the EU and the vaccine rollout, Boris may well see quite a bounce in the polls

    An agreement is better than nothing, but prices will still rise, lorries will still queue.
  • HYUFD said:
    That is crazy. Who in the UK thinks there are parts of other countries that belong to us, and which parts? Ireland? Calais? Bonkers.
  • Let's guess the length of a generation.

    Reasonable views may suggest it's between 25 and 35 years. Not 7. You've got a long wait SNP!

    A bit too long.
    "... calculating how long a generation lasts is not an exact science, and there’s no simple formula. If you look at the generally recognized generations, you could say there have been 6 generations in the last 100 years between 1920 and 2020: GI Generation, Silent Generation, Baby Boomers, Generation X, Millennials, and Gen Z."

    So maybe 16?
    OK shall we split the difference between your measure 'Society' generations and mine 'reproductive' generations so shall we go for 20 years? Hopefully SNP will have disappeared by then!
  • HYUFD said:
    That is crazy. Who in the UK thinks there are parts of other countries that belong to us, and which parts? Ireland? Calais? Bonkers.
    Catalonia? :lol: l
  • HYUFD said:
    That is crazy. Who in the UK thinks there are parts of other countries that belong to us, and which parts? Ireland? Calais? Bonkers.
    If we get to pick, I’d go for Bordeaux.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2020
    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    It's sad, Julie Burchill used to be a genuinely interesting columnist and has always been a great writer, but she seems to have lost the plot in recent years. Or maybe she just knows her audience.
    You begin to wonder whether there is something about sitting alone and writing stuff that, sooner or later, sends people a bit mad.
    Says poster with a history of THIRTY THOUSAND comments on PB
    Oh do fuck off Sean, your life is so boring you invent a new character every week to play with. Those voices in your head are not what a normal person experiences.

    Leave @IanB2 the fuck alone.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,239

    HYUFD said:
    I wonder which bit of which country 23% of the UK think we’ve lost; Calais? Corfu? The Balearic Islands?
    Ireland seems the most likely.
  • Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    Funny - I was reading yesterday that the EU has dropped the ratchet approach - have they capitulated too?
    Its called negotiation.
    The EU's movement consists of finding a different way to package the same thing in a way that makes it presentationally acceptable to the UK government. That's not the same as a concession on the substance.
    It’s neither. Both sides are actually moving. It’s a genuine compromise. I understand how this might upset remoaners who desire nothing but British defeat and surrender but what can you do. Yours is a pathology
    They can't bear the idea that the UK and EU are equals in anything, the EU must always be more powerful or better. That isn't the case and it never has been. One of the reasons we're in this position is Barnier actually believing that and it's taken UVdL sidelining him to unlock a deal.
    Tbf I think the EU - courtesy of Macron - took a maximalist position and refused to cave to the 11th hour, believing we would yield and they would win all. A fair enough position, given their relative strength.

    As it happens Boris is a bit bonkers and refused to surrender, so the EU has budged, somewhat, to a stance they would probably have accepted anyway. It’s not a triumph for either side (if it happens) tho both sides will sell it thus. It’s a negotiated deal. Is all. But it’s enough. Let’s hope it works.
    I think our remainers encouraged that view, very much like Edward VIII writing to Hitler and telling him to continue bombing London because the British would eventually sue for peace.
    I don’t like to get personal but you should reread that and think about it. It is really quite offensive bollocks - the idea that the EU is like the Nazis and that people who think Britain should be in the EU are quisling traitors.

    You seem quite incapable of understanding that people who do not share your view are not evil but just have a different opinion to you. You seem not to understand that there are people in Europe who have real memories of what it was like to live under Nazi rule (my elderly relatives for one) and who view with some contempt people from later generations living in a country which had the very good fortune not to be subject to such rule pathetically using incorrect historical analogies to make themselves look big and the other side look bad.

    Grow up. You have the right to post bollocks on sites like this one because people like my father fought to keep this country and the rest of Europe free. He worked as a doctor in Belsen after it was liberated. He knew what Nazism was. The EU wanting to impose tariffs on a trading partner, even unilaterally, is so far away from Nazism as to be in the next galaxy.

    If “Remainers” are not reconciled to the Brexit project it is because they see all too many Leavers spouting offensive, ignorant nonsense such as this. Wanting a different relationship with the EU is an honourable project. But this - the constant harking back to and misuse of WW2 to justify a Brexit which has been - let’s be kind - poorly handled, well it’s pathetic and deserves all the scorn and contempt I can lob at it.
    Well said Cyclefree, I agree with every word. The debate and language from both sides has become utterly appalling and those who call it out are deserving of our praise.

    It's a shame that some will only call it out as a way to score political points, i.e. a few posters who will remain nameless.

    Beyond that, I hope you are otherwise well and I hope your family might be doing a bit better now? Sending my very best wishes either way. Always enjoy your contributions as you know.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    The other issue that will really upset those who want to remain is that an agreement with the EU and the vaccine rollout, Boris may well see quite a bounce in the polls

    I have said for a while that Johnson will see a sizeable bounce. I have always doubted it would last for more than a few months, and it probably won't be as sizeable as I first thought.

    If Starmer whips the PLP to vote for Johnson's trade deal, Labour will lose another vote, mine, granted not to the Conservatives, but by default it helps Johnson.
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    LadyG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    You must have missed my question to you the first time round.
    What happens if the SNP do get an absolute majority?
    Absolutely nothing. You will have to go whistle for your referendum because Boris will refuse until the next GE. what will you do then? Complain to the headmaster?
    I'm sorry to distract you from your obsession with the size of the UK's national penis, but I was asking the person who seems to think the SNP having an absolute majority is important, not you. His opinion on the matter is about as crucial as yours, but it is his point, ergo..
    While you are at it, ask him why the Scottish Greens don't count (but Don't Knows do).
    Westminster and Westminster alone will decide, there was an absolute SNP majority in 2011 that led to indyref2, if the SNP cannot even repeat that in 2021 they have zero chance of Westminster allowing another referendum, not that that is likely even if they do
    C'mon, you know you can find the balls to give a hostage to fortune if you really grit your teeth.
    If the SNP get an overall majority, a zero chance of Westminster allowing another referendum goes up to what chance?
    https://twitter.com/andrewneary/status/1338441649651912704?s=20
  • HYUFD said:
    That is crazy. Who in the UK thinks there are parts of other countries that belong to us, and which parts? Ireland? Calais? Bonkers.
    More likely people misunderstood the question.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    Funny - I was reading yesterday that the EU has dropped the ratchet approach - have they capitulated too?
    Its called negotiation.
    The EU's movement consists of finding a different way to package the same thing in a way that makes it presentationally acceptable to the UK government. That's not the same as a concession on the substance.
    It’s neither. Both sides are actually moving. It’s a genuine compromise. I understand how this might upset remoaners who desire nothing but British defeat and surrender but what can you do. Yours is a pathology
    They can't bear the idea that the UK and EU are equals in anything, the EU must always be more powerful or better. That isn't the case and it never has been. One of the reasons we're in this position is Barnier actually believing that and it's taken UVdL sidelining him to unlock a deal.
    Tbf I think the EU - courtesy of Macron - took a maximalist position and refused to cave to the 11th hour, believing we would yield and they would win all. A fair enough position, given their relative strength.

    As it happens Boris is a bit bonkers and refused to surrender, so the EU has budged, somewhat, to a stance they would probably have accepted anyway. It’s not a triumph for either side (if it happens) tho both sides will sell it thus. It’s a negotiated deal. Is all. But it’s enough. Let’s hope it works.
    I think our remainers encouraged that view, very much like Edward VIII writing to Hitler and telling him to continue bombing London because the British would eventually sue for peace.
    I don’t like to get personal but you should reread that and think about it. It is really quite offensive bollocks - the idea that the EU is like the Nazis and that people who think Britain should be in the EU are quisling traitors.

    You seem quite incapable of understanding that people who do not share your view are not evil but just have a different opinion to you. You seem not to understand that there are people in Europe who have real memories of what it was like to live under Nazi rule (my elderly relatives for one) and who view with some contempt people from later generations living in a country which had the very good fortune not to be subject to such rule pathetically using incorrect historical analogies to make themselves look big and the other side look bad.

    Grow up. You have the right to post bollocks on sites like this one because people like my father fought to keep this country and the rest of Europe free. He worked as a doctor in Belsen after it was liberated. He knew what Nazism was. The EU wanting to impose tariffs on a trading partner, even unilaterally, is so far away from Nazism as to be in the next galaxy.

    If “Remainers” are not reconciled to the Brexit project it is because they see all too many Leavers spouting offensive, ignorant nonsense such as this. Wanting a different relationship with the EU is an honourable project. But this - the constant harking back to and misuse of WW2 to justify a Brexit which has been - let’s be kind - poorly handled, well it’s pathetic and deserves all the scorn and contempt I can lob at it.
    I also really can't see any reason to even talk about WW2 in any political context nowadays. My dad who was born after WW2 ended is 75 years old today - which really should put such matters in perspective. Heck the youngest people who fought in WW2 have to be over 90 years old.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    The pubs in London aren't very busy today, which you'd think they would be if people thought the capital was about to be moved into Tier 3.
  • I'm looking forward to Sean T's regeneration. Like Colin Baker this current version has gotten really nasty.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting article in my opinion.

    "How race politics liberated the elites
    If society is taken to be inherently oppressive, the notion of a common good disappears
    BY MATTHEW CRAWFORD"

    https://unherd.com/2020/12/how-race-politics-liberated-the-elites/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

    In this country the notion of the common good was junked under Thatcher, who wasn't a notable racial justice warrior as far as I recall. The elites liberated themselves from the notion of the common good, led by their own greed. I suspect the main structural factor was the fading of memories of WW2, which had briefly imposed a sense of solidarity and common decency on the ruling classes. The timelines are completely out for the argument in this piece to have even a degree of plausibility.
    Apparently the most equal year in the UK was 1978, just before Callaghan lost to Thatcher.
  • IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    Wot? No three day pre-Tier 3 lockdown party? Outrageous.
    That would be funny
  • Phil said:

    HYUFD said:
    I wonder which bit of which country 23% of the UK think we’ve lost; Calais? Corfu? The Balearic Islands?
    Ireland seems the most likely.
    When Ireland rejoins the new outward looking, bucaneering UK freed at last from its EU shackles, at least that particular itch will be scratched.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    edited December 2020

    LadyG said:

    Hello pb. Can anyone help me with this uni logic question? My niece is really struggling and says it’s desperate.

    My philosophy logic is 30 years old and very rusty. All advice welcome

    https://twitter.com/catullus88/status/1338473774157598720?s=21

    The answer to 2a is no. P <--> Q is true if both P and Q are true or P and Q are false, otherwise false. However, if P is false and Q is true then P -> Q is true, which makes the whole thing true through the alternation operator. So the second allows a false P but a true Q; the first doesn't. I hope that's clear.
    And 2 is a logical consequence of 1 (you can't have the situation where 1 is true but 2 false).

    And...

    1 is contingent (can be true or false depending on the values of its simple sentences).
    2 is a tautology (is true under all values of P and Q).
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,239
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.

    Smells like capitulation

    Funny - I was reading yesterday that the EU has dropped the ratchet approach - have they capitulated too?
    Its called negotiation.
    The EU's movement consists of finding a different way to package the same thing in a way that makes it presentationally acceptable to the UK government. That's not the same as a concession on the substance.
    It’s neither. Both sides are actually moving. It’s a genuine compromise. I understand how this might upset remoaners who desire nothing but British defeat and surrender but what can you do. Yours is a pathology
    They can't bear the idea that the UK and EU are equals in anything, the EU must always be more powerful or better. That isn't the case and it never has been. One of the reasons we're in this position is Barnier actually believing that and it's taken UVdL sidelining him to unlock a deal.
    Tbf I think the EU - courtesy of Macron - took a maximalist position and refused to cave to the 11th hour, believing we would yield and they would win all. A fair enough position, given their relative strength.

    As it happens Boris is a bit bonkers and refused to surrender, so the EU has budged, somewhat, to a stance they would probably have accepted anyway. It’s not a triumph for either side (if it happens) tho both sides will sell it thus. It’s a negotiated deal. Is all. But it’s enough. Let’s hope it works.
    I think our remainers encouraged that view, very much like Edward VIII writing to Hitler and telling him to continue bombing London because the British would eventually sue for peace.
    I don’t like to get personal but you should reread that and think about it. It is really quite offensive bollocks - the idea that the EU is like the Nazis and that people who think Britain should be in the EU are quisling traitors.

    You seem quite incapable of understanding that people who do not share your view are not evil but just have a different opinion to you. You seem not to understand that there are people in Europe who have real memories of what it was like to live under Nazi rule (my elderly relatives for one) and who view with some contempt people from later generations living in a country which had the very good fortune not to be subject to such rule pathetically using incorrect historical analogies to make themselves look big and the other side look bad.

    Grow up. You have the right to post bollocks on sites like this one because people like my father fought to keep this country and the rest of Europe free. He worked as a doctor in Belsen after it was liberated. He knew what Nazism was. The EU wanting to impose tariffs on a trading partner, even unilaterally, is so far away from Nazism as to be in the next galaxy.

    If “Remainers” are not reconciled to the Brexit project it is because they see all too many Leavers spouting offensive, ignorant nonsense such as this. Wanting a different relationship with the EU is an honourable project. But this - the constant harking back to and misuse of WW2 to justify a Brexit which has been - let’s be kind - poorly handled, well it’s pathetic and deserves all the scorn and contempt I can lob at it.
    There’s an extensive history of anti-EU campaigning linking the EU to Nazi ideas of a united Europe sadly. This line of thinking goes right back to the 60s.
  • I'm looking forward to Sean T's regeneration. Like Colin Baker this current version has gotten really nasty.

    His next one should be Scotch, a Sylvester McCoy noticing deep disquiet about the SNP in the glens and braes while sensing a nascent love for the Union about to burst forth.
  • Phil said:

    HYUFD said:
    I wonder which bit of which country 23% of the UK think we’ve lost; Calais? Corfu? The Balearic Islands?
    Ireland seems the most likely.
    I was going to suggest Sealand but then I realised they’re not in NATO :-)
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,889
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting article in my opinion.

    "How race politics liberated the elites
    If society is taken to be inherently oppressive, the notion of a common good disappears
    BY MATTHEW CRAWFORD"

    https://unherd.com/2020/12/how-race-politics-liberated-the-elites/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

    In this country the notion of the common good was junked under Thatcher, who wasn't a notable racial justice warrior as far as I recall. The elites liberated themselves from the notion of the common good, led by their own greed. I suspect the main structural factor was the fading of memories of WW2, which had briefly imposed a sense of solidarity and common decency on the ruling classes. The timelines are completely out for the argument in this piece to have even a degree of plausibility.
    Apparently the most equal year in the UK was 1978, just before Callaghan lost to Thatcher.
    The year of the Lib-Lab pact......
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    I'm looking forward to Sean T's regeneration. Like Colin Baker this current version has gotten really nasty.

    His next one should be Scotch, a Sylvester McCoy noticing deep disquiet about the SNP in the glens and braes while sensing a nascent love for the Union about to burst forth.
    The Skaro of Better Together?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551
    edited December 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    The pubs in London aren't very busy today, which you'd think they would be if people thought the capital was about to be moved into Tier 3.
    I've just had a substantial meal in my local pub for £1 plus two pints of bitter. The substantial meal was a beef and onion pie plus salad. I had a side dish of chunky chips. Very nice. I was there because I'd left my flat keys in the flat and was locked out and needed shelter from the rain.

    The landlord was in despair awaiting the announcement on London Tier 3.

    The pub wasn't very busy.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    The other issue that will really upset those who want to remain is that an agreement with the EU and the vaccine rollout, Boris may well see quite a bounce in the polls

    I think you'll find that most people, regardless of whether they voted "leave" or "remain", want a deal with the EU and want a vaccine rolled out asap.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    LadyG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    You must have missed my question to you the first time round.
    What happens if the SNP do get an absolute majority?
    Absolutely nothing. You will have to go whistle for your referendum because Boris will refuse until the next GE. what will you do then? Complain to the headmaster?
    I'm sorry to distract you from your obsession with the size of the UK's national penis, but I was asking the person who seems to think the SNP having an absolute majority is important, not you. His opinion on the matter is about as crucial as yours, but it is his point, ergo..
    While you are at it, ask him why the Scottish Greens don't count (but Don't Knows do).
    Westminster and Westminster alone will decide, there was an absolute SNP majority in 2011 that led to indyref2, if the SNP cannot even repeat that in 2021 they have zero chance of Westminster allowing another referendum, not that that is likely even if they do
    C'mon, you know you can find the balls to give a hostage to fortune if you really grit your teeth.
    If the SNP get an overall majority, a zero chance of Westminster allowing another referendum goes up to what chance?
    And he still hasn't explained in his dulcet Estuary accent how the Scottish Greens suddenly disappear from consideration.

  • Barnesian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    The pubs in London aren't very busy today, which you'd think they would be if people thought the capital was about to be moved into Tier 3.
    I've just had a substantial meal in my pub for £1 plus two pints of bitter. The substantial meal was a beef and onion pie plus salad. I had a side dish of chunky chips. Very nice. I was there because I'd left my flat keys in the flat and was locked out and needed shelter from the rain.

    The landlord was in despair awaiting the announcement on London Tier 3.

    The pub wasn't very busy.
    In a year of stupidities from our policy makers and science advisors, the "substantial meal" issue must be in the top three of plain bonkers.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Crabbie said:

    Phil said:

    HYUFD said:
    I wonder which bit of which country 23% of the UK think we’ve lost; Calais? Corfu? The Balearic Islands?
    Ireland seems the most likely.
    I was going to suggest Sealand but then I realised they’re not in NATO :-)
    But the tweet is about NATO countries' inhabitants. Desired territory doesn't have to be in NATO.

    (Are the CIs in NATO? Maybe the French are hankering after them.)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I'm looking forward to Sean T's regeneration. Like Colin Baker this current version has gotten really nasty.

    His next one should be Scotch, a Sylvester McCoy noticing deep disquiet about the SNP in the glens and braes while sensing a nascent love for the Union about to burst forth.
    We have enough transient SCon rampers turn up at election time anyways to need a long running character
  • IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    Wot? No three day pre-Tier 3 lockdown party? Outrageous.
    That would be funny
    How do they expect to have a spike to dampen down with a lockdown if they don't pre-announce a lockdown?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    HYUFD said:
    That is crazy. Who in the UK thinks there are parts of other countries that belong to us, and which parts? Ireland? Calais? Bonkers.
    It's not that crazy when you consider how much and how often the borders of Europe have changed. That's why the EU has been so great - it's turned a lot of these borders into less important lines on maps, almost akin to arguments over whether Middlesbrough should still be in Yorkshire, Monmouthshire part of England, etc.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    Funny how Londoners only care about Tier 3 now it's likely to affect them.

    The North East in Tier 3? Who cares right?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Barnesian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    The pubs in London aren't very busy today, which you'd think they would be if people thought the capital was about to be moved into Tier 3.
    I've just had a substantial meal in my pub for £1 plus two pints of bitter. The substantial meal was a beef and onion pie plus salad. I had a side dish of chunky chips. Very nice. I was there because I'd left my flat keys in the flat and was locked out and needed shelter from the rain.

    The landlord was in despair awaiting the announcement on London Tier 3.

    The pub wasn't very busy.
    In a year of stupidities from our policy makers and science advisors, the "substantial meal" issue must be in the top three of plain bonkers.

    I think Sunak deciding to kill people in September will ease it out.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    Wot? No three day pre-Tier 3 lockdown party? Outrageous.
    Sounds like the authorities are learning then!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    Wot? No three day pre-Tier 3 lockdown party? Outrageous.
    That would be funny
    How do they expect to have a spike to dampen down with a lockdown if they don't pre-announce a lockdown?
    You jest, but that's what it feels like....
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Funny how Londoners only care about Tier 3 now it's likely to affect them.

    The North East in Tier 3? Who cares right?

    Philip Thompson will be along momentarily to tell us why vaccines will save the day.

    We have them now, apparently, and yet the lockdowns are getting worse not better.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,638
    edited December 2020
    Looks like Tier 3 will come to London 0001 Wed.

    Not confirmed
  • HYUFD said:
    That is crazy. Who in the UK thinks there are parts of other countries that belong to us, and which parts? Ireland? Calais? Bonkers.
    Remember 8% of people support anything.

    I am however interested if the remainder actually have a particular piece of territory in mind, or a general belief that they are simply hard done by their neighbours.

  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:


    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes down to just 44%, even lower than the 45% it got in 2014, including don't knows who are now up to 14%

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1338442898803658754?s=20

    Don't you know that there wasn't a "don't know" option in 2014? Or are you just being dishonest and hoping people are too stupid to notice?
    Well I confess to being too stupid to notice. Surely HYUFD my favourite poll reader hasn't been comparing apples and pears?
    Also to the point, he's been hoping again today that people will only count SNP MSPs as pro-independence for the purposes of legitimising indyref 2, without remembering that the Scottish Greens are also pro-indy, as are several potential minor parties such as the SSP.
    There already is an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood, if the SNP cannot even get an absolute majority at Holyrood as they had in 2011 before indyref 2014 then Boris will easily dismiss Sturgeon and any calls for indyref2, he would likely do so anyway but the lack of an SNP majority blows the argument for indyref2 below the waterline
    So what are you waiting for? There's a pro-indy majority at Holyrood RIGHT NOW THIS MINUTE.

    Denying it exists [edit] in terms of a moral imperative on the London regime is remarkable even by your standards of goalpost-moving.
    2014 was a once in a generation referendum, as confirmed by both Salmond and Sturgeon at the time, Boris is merely respecting that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlGplW4SQc

    https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1158308717961592832?s=20
    The losers manifestos don't count.
    It is the winner's manifesto "Vote No to keep Scotland in the EU" which has to be tested, and it fails.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    The other issue that will really upset those who want to remain is that an agreement with the EU and the vaccine rollout, Boris may well see quite a bounce in the polls

    I think you'll find that most people, regardless of whether they voted "leave" or "remain", want a deal with the EU and want a vaccine rolled out asap.
    90% of people hold those opinions. The other 10% are very over-represented in the media and on political forums.

    Everyone could do with dialling the language down a notch, becuase the vast majority of the public aren’t listening.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    HYUFD said:
    That is crazy. Who in the UK thinks there are parts of other countries that belong to us, and which parts? Ireland? Calais? Bonkers.
    Remember 8% of people support anything.

    I am however interested if the remainder actually have a particular piece of territory in mind, or a general belief that they are simply hard done by their neighbours.

    The Channel Isles?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC news - London could go into tier three as early as today

    Wot? No three day pre-Tier 3 lockdown party? Outrageous.
    Sounds like the authorities are learning then!
    Not much, if London's tier 3 lockdown start is 00.01 Wednesday.....
This discussion has been closed.