I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
My ability to elect those who make the laws in the UK is unchanged. My individual freedoms have been curtailed, as have those of the business of which I am a part owner. I am also now a second class citizen in my own country as others who live here enjoy more guaranteed rights than I do. As I say, I am sure you voted for all that. I see no evidence that others did.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
I don't think the EU have an issue with any of this. But I don't think fish is the fundamental stumbling block. The big issue is the EU imposing its treatment of LPF on the UK when the UK does not commit to meeting those standards and implies that it intends to reduce them.
The "consideration for the sale" is the rest of the FTA that includes zero tariff/ zero quota market access. It does depend on the UK side valuing that preferential access.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
It’s surprising this one hasn’t come up a lot more, in recent days and weeks - although I’m sure the Irish are making the point firmly in the internal EU discussions. Ireland will suffer from no-deal more than any other country, almost all their exports go either to or through the U.K.
It's strange that Ireland will magic up loads of capacity for this stuff overnight but the UK will be unable to process fish or agricultural products at all forever and will go without food and everyone will starve to death.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
It’s surprising this one hasn’t come up a lot more, in recent days and weeks - although I’m sure the Irish are making the point firmly in the internal EU discussions. Ireland will suffer from no-deal more than any other country, almost all their exports go either to or through the U.K.
There is one country that will suffer more than Ireland when we get to No Deal.
re: the thread header. I would say that too much time is given to lockdown "phobes", and opposed to lockdown sceptics. The latter have genuine questions about the extent of the restrictions, the effectiveness of various measures, the extent to which restrictions are actually linked to realistic risk assessments of various activities, and the transparency and quality of the data used to make decisions. All with an underlying presumption that we should try and limit restrictions on economic activity as much as possible.
But they don't deny the prevalence of the virus or its potential seriousness. And don't generally confuse stupid arguments about masks with things which really matter.
More proper analysis of science and less promotion of conspiracy should be seen as a good thing.
Glad to see the suicide myth getting an airing though. A trump card they play without ever being challenged as to its veracity.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
That's not quite how democracy works though, is it? The losers have to suck it up in the sense that they lack the power to make the decisions - as is happening now - but it doesn't mean they lose the right to complain, campaign, point out its contradictions and how damaging it is likely to be. Otherwise Nigel Farage would still just be a pub bore. The suggestion from Brexiteers that people shut up and accept what they get rather betrays the fact that they rather know they've missold their proposition and that it can't weather any kind of objective critique of how it will actually improve things for us as a country, even those Brits that voted for it.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
I don't think the EU have an issue with any of this. But I don't think fish is the fundamental stumbling block. The big issue is the EU imposing its treatment of LPF on the UK when the UK does not commit to meeting those standards and implies that it intends to reduce them.
The "consideration for the sale" is the rest of the FTA that includes zero tariff/ zero quota market access. It does depend on the UK side valuing that preferential access.
But the UK has accepted their position will result in tariffs and quotas. You're chatting shit as always.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
Indeed - how many lorries travel between Canada and the EU each day?
It would have helped if the government had worked with the different sectors before embarking on negotiations. Instead the obsession with North Korean style sovereignty has become the main end point .
Sovereignty doesn’t pay the bills but Bozo and the rest will of course be alright whilst trying to use the EU as a scapegoat .
One wonders what the UK reaction would have been if the EU parliament were bringing forward legislation to over ride the WA they signed upto a year ago . And the reason the EU now want an even stronger governance model is because you can’t trust anything that Bozo says.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
I think something like that had been suggested by the UK negotiating team and it was part of the breakthrough earlier this week. It fell apart because France doesn't want to pay for fishing rights in UK waters and wanted to keep everything wrt fishing exactly as it is now for at least 10 years.
As with medicines and financial regulation the UK has offered reasonable proposals, the fault has been on the EU side getting high on their own supply.
Even on LPF the UK has offered almost identical terms to what the EU and Canada and the EU and Japan have already agreed with additional measures on backsliding which would bind both sides, it was rejected because the EU wants 100% alignment forever to basically all EU regulations and to impose tariffs on product groups despite the alignment. It's a ridiculous position for them to hold and will result in no deal if they don't realise just how ridiculous it is.
Unfortunately I think we're heading for no deal and I think it will be no deal for a very large number of years because relations after it will go into a very long deep freeze as neither side will budge from their current position. No deal will poison UK/EU relations for at least a decade IMO.
It will be No Deal as they have been arrogant arseholes right from the beginning. The great announcements about getting better deal than they have, oven ready , lying through their teeth and generally disparaging the EU with all the we hold all the cards etc has led to them being hoist by their own petard. Their delusions that England is a world leader and far more important than the EU is coming home to roost.
Doug, I am not sure you live in the real world, where do you see me "losing my shit". You seem to be a bit unhinged and drama queenesque about things. Merely expressed my opinion that bagpipes were Scottish , hardly seems to be "losing my shit" to me sunshine. I think you may have led a very sheltered life.
In response to my post that said, wherever they originated, bagpipes are still Scottish, you replied “...only English fevered imaginations...”. Not a healthy way of expressing a view that, you say, agrees with my own. Bagpipes are Scottish, Baseball is American, Guinness is Ireland’s national drink (although stout originated in London) Belgo-Jewish fish and chips are England’s national dish, rugby from Warwickshire is New Zealand’s national sport. Yes, I have many many faults indeed but several years viewing some pretty disturbing stuff and meeting some more than unpleasant people in the criminal and civil justice systems allows me to assert that I have not been all that sheltered and to venture some tentative opinions on the anger your posts suggest.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
It might be a religious thing: in catholic countries you eat fish on Fridays and in Lent as it doesn't count as meat, so in protestant countries perhaps people avoided fish to demonstrate that they were not catholic?
This is wild speculation on my part btw: I'd be amazed if it turned out to be the actual reason...
I doubt it.
I feel like fish - with certain exceptions - was deemed working class. Whelks, bloaters, prawns, mussels, eel, even haddock.
As soon as folks got more money, they graduated to beef and chicken.
See also, offal.
Oysters used to be a very common (in both senses of the word) meal.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
I don't think the EU have an issue with any of this. But I don't think fish is the fundamental stumbling block. The big issue is the EU imposing its treatment of LPF on the UK when the UK does not commit to meeting those standards and implies that it intends to reduce them.
The "consideration for the sale" is the rest of the FTA that includes zero tariff/ zero quota market access. It does depend on the UK side valuing that preferential access.
But the UK has accepted their position will result in tariffs and quotas. You're chatting shit as always.
The deal in question is for zero tariffs and zero quotas. The shit is all yours,
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
Indeed - how many lorries travel between Canada and the EU each day?
But those same EU lorries need access to the UK to sell EU goods. In fact it's an unequal relationship given that we have a huge good deficit with the EU. We're giving EU haulage privileged access to the UK rather than making companies export by ships and then have UK haulage companies do the internal shipping.
You act as if it's a one way street and that the UK is asking for something that we are proposing to deny the EU. Brexit has completely addled your brains, Joff.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
Some on here apparently, why do they keep trying to promote it.
Malc, my point is that there are a lot of things that are quintessentially of a place that were not invented there. Baseball was not invented in the US. Fish and Chips it appears are not an English invention. There are lots of sources attesting to bagpipes outside Scotland before they are recorded there and those sources are not English. I’m not making a pro or anti anyone point. It’s just a fact.
We will just have to console ourselves with having invented currywurst for the Germans.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
It’s surprising this one hasn’t come up a lot more, in recent days and weeks - although I’m sure the Irish are making the point firmly in the internal EU discussions. Ireland will suffer from no-deal more than any other country, almost all their exports go either to or through the U.K.
Not for long though, that is one direct route in place and sure it will not be long till they beef it up and likely add others. Be interesting to see how the customs work at Scottish/NI ports and how cross border delays etc cause massive disruption/anger in NI.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
The Kent Lorry Park problem will be partially resolved, only when UK businesses stop trading to the extent they do now, with consequences for jobs and wealth. It is a strange strategy to adopt, but it is the necessary partial solution to this particular problem.
Yes, Adam Smith’s invisible hand will work its magic eventually: The hauliers / ferry operators will raise prices until demand falls to match available capacity.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
I don't think the EU have an issue with any of this. But I don't think fish is the fundamental stumbling block. The big issue is the EU imposing its treatment of LPF on the UK when the UK does not commit to meeting those standards and implies that it intends to reduce them.
The "consideration for the sale" is the rest of the FTA that includes zero tariff/ zero quota market access. It does depend on the UK side valuing that preferential access.
But the UK has accepted their position will result in tariffs and quotas. You're chatting shit as always.
The deal in question is for zero tariffs and zero quotas. The shit is all yours,
Why is it?
Frost has said he is ok negotiating not zero tariffs and zero quotas.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
I don't think the EU have an issue with any of this. But I don't think fish is the fundamental stumbling block. The big issue is the EU imposing its treatment of LPF on the UK when the UK does not commit to meeting those standards and implies that it intends to reduce them.
The "consideration for the sale" is the rest of the FTA that includes zero tariff/ zero quota market access. It does depend on the UK side valuing that preferential access.
But the UK has accepted their position will result in tariffs and quotas. You're chatting shit as always.
The deal in question is for zero tariffs and zero quotas. The shit is all yours,
But it's not, the UK conceded tariffs and quotas ages ago. Hence all of the doom about the car industry and agriculture even with a deal. I mean you've posted about it many times and it was a rare point of agreement.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
What are the standard FTA terms that are employed in a situation when literally thousands of lorries currently pass between two negotiating parties on a daily basis and where there is freedom of movement for people, capital and goods?
The reality is that there is no standard free trade agreement to cover the situation we find ourselves in because this situation is pretty much unique in the history of FTAs - two parties negotiating to raise barriers rather than to reduce them.
I see that @Philip_Thompson is back to the position of 1 moment ramping how a “Australian Style Deal” (no deal) is going to be sunlit uplands whilst the next moment whining incessantly how unfair the EU are being for not offering us exactly what Canada has.
That’s rather sad, always remembered his commentaries.
I think it’s only Murray Walker (95) of the great TV commentators left now.
Alliss was an embarrassment with some of his reactionary views but for a long time - until that aspect started to dominate - he was a superb commentator on what is probably my favourite sport. As an example, here he is on Tiger's famous 2005 Augusta chip. When this is aired you normally get the super pumped American commentary - which is great - but this here by Alliss is imo better. Uses silence perfectly, then the simple "thank you", then the crisp and elegant analysis. You can't do it any better -
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
I don't think the EU have an issue with any of this. But I don't think fish is the fundamental stumbling block. The big issue is the EU imposing its treatment of LPF on the UK when the UK does not commit to meeting those standards and implies that it intends to reduce them.
The "consideration for the sale" is the rest of the FTA that includes zero tariff/ zero quota market access. It does depend on the UK side valuing that preferential access.
But the UK has accepted their position will result in tariffs and quotas. You're chatting shit as always.
Max , I think you will find most of UK don't believe even Bozo is stupid enough to do No Deal and therefore do not expect there to be tariffs. Only Bozo and the zealots think it.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
It might be a religious thing: in catholic countries you eat fish on Fridays and in Lent as it doesn't count as meat, so in protestant countries perhaps people avoided fish to demonstrate that they were not catholic?
This is wild speculation on my part btw: I'd be amazed if it turned out to be the actual reason...
I doubt it.
I feel like fish - with certain exceptions - was deemed working class. Whelks, bloaters, prawns, mussels, eel, even haddock.
As soon as folks got more money, they graduated to beef and chicken.
See also, offal.
Oysters used to be a very common (in both senses of the word) meal.
Salmon used to be seen as posh until they started factory-farming it, making it cheap (at the expense of the fish - preventing migratory fish from migrating is not great, and sea lice are a major issue, literally eating the flesh of the living fish. Compared with my childhood in Denmark I was shocked on returning to Britain how conservative we were by comparison - Denmark had a wealth of different kinds, such as the delicious long hornfish and the salt cod that you could keep outside the fridge forever. Depressingly, when I went back many years later, the traditional Danish varieties had largely vanished and restuarants were just serving deep-fried cod and plaice and salmon, just like here.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
I see that @Philip_Thompson is back to the position of 1 moment ramping how a “Australian Style Deal” (no deal) is going to be sunlit uplands whilst the next moment whining incessantly how unfair the EU are being for not offering us exactly what Canada has.
🤷♂️
No whinging I am happy either way.
In case of trade terms I have long made my preference clear: Canada > Australia > bad deal.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
The moment Britain quits the CU and starts a FTA our commerce instantly becomes more expensive. A customs union is the removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members. Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs. Tariff revenue may then be shared between members, with the possibility that the country that collects the duty retaining a share, between 20 and 25% in the European customs union to cover the additional administration costs associated with border trade. That is an awful lot of money that helps with administration costs to be surrendering at stroke of a pen to be absorbed by our businesses.
One of the strongest arguments for a customs union over a simple free-trade agreement, is that it solves the problem of trade deflection. Trade deflection occurs when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided and further action is taken to deal with that. For example, assuming Europe operated a simple FTA, rather than a customs union, and if Germany imposes a high 40% tariff on Japanese cars, while France imposes just a 10% tariff, Japan would export its cars to French car dealers, and then re-sell them to Germany on a free-trade basis. This trade deflection is avoided if Germany and France (and others) form a customs union. can Britain outside really compete with Europe on this basis? Inside the EU Britaingains from trade creation massively outweigh the losses from trade diversion, becuase this isn’t just for final goods and resources, this is beneficial for supply chains integral to what the deindustrialising British economy has become, tariff free movement within the customs union for important supply chain.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
Indeed - how many lorries travel between Canada and the EU each day?
But those same EU lorries need access to the UK to sell EU goods. In fact it's an unequal relationship given that we have a huge good deficit with the EU. We're giving EU haulage privileged access to the UK rather than making companies export by ships and then have UK haulage companies do the internal shipping.
You act as if it's a one way street and that the UK is asking for something that we are proposing to deny the EU. Brexit has completely addled your brains, Joff.
My brain is sharp enough to understand that the UK trades with one single EU market, while 27 individual countries trade with the UK, thus EU-wide deficits and surpluses are far less relevant to them than they are to us. My brain also realises that no lorries currently run between Canada and the EU each day so right there an issue exists that a Canada-style FTA can never cover.
I see that @Philip_Thompson is back to the position of 1 moment ramping how a “Australian Style Deal” (no deal) is going to be sunlit uplands whilst the next moment whining incessantly how unfair the EU are being for not offering us exactly what Canada has.
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
When there is a surplus of anything, it tends to find its way into pet food. Indeed I believe that was how commercial pet food was invented in the post-war US, as a way to extract value from food by products.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
It’s surprising this one hasn’t come up a lot more, in recent days and weeks - although I’m sure the Irish are making the point firmly in the internal EU discussions. Ireland will suffer from no-deal more than any other country, almost all their exports go either to or through the U.K.
Maybe they should have spent less time poisoning the well in phase one of the negotiations and more time trying to agree mutually respectful principles for future trade.
I think the well has been well and truly poisoned by the fact that the English/British Government has never shown any respect for Ireland or its government whatsoever. You can’t blame them for seeking to protect their position from a historical enemy who is threatening them once more.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
It’s surprising this one hasn’t come up a lot more, in recent days and weeks - although I’m sure the Irish are making the point firmly in the internal EU discussions. Ireland will suffer from no-deal more than any other country, almost all their exports go either to or through the U.K.
Maybe they should have spent less time poisoning the well in phase one of the negotiations and more time trying to agree mutually respectful principles for future trade.
I think the well has been well and truly poisoned by the fact that the English/British Government has never shown any respect for Ireland or its government whatsoever. You can’t blame them for seeking to protect their position from a historical enemy who is threatening them once more.
It was quite shocking to see the language used by Tory MPs in November (IIRC) before the vote when it dawned on them that the Irish were actually being given equal status with the UK.
Doug, I am not sure you live in the real world, where do you see me "losing my shit". You seem to be a bit unhinged and drama queenesque about things. Merely expressed my opinion that bagpipes were Scottish , hardly seems to be "losing my shit" to me sunshine. I think you may have led a very sheltered life.
In response to my post that said, wherever they originated, bagpipes are still Scottish, you replied “...only English fevered imaginations...”. Not a healthy way of expressing a view that, you say, agrees with my own. Bagpipes are Scottish, Baseball is American, Guinness is Ireland’s national drink (although stout originated in London) Belgo-Jewish fish and chips are England’s national dish, rugby from Warwickshire is New Zealand’s national sport. Yes, I have many many faults indeed but several years viewing some pretty disturbing stuff and meeting some more than unpleasant people in the criminal and civil justice systems allows me to assert that I have not been all that sheltered and to venture some tentative opinions on the anger your posts suggest.
You cannot help yourself , you rate yourself far too highly , think you are really really clever and talk bullshit. Go analyse yourself and determine why your inferiority complex makes you stalk people who do not agree with your lofty opinions of yourself. I have said many times to stop stalking me , but fool me for actually replying to one of your posts. I will return to previous promises to ignore you and hopefully stick to it. Happy stalking.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
What are the standard FTA terms that are employed in a situation when literally thousands of lorries currently pass between two negotiating parties on a daily basis and where there is freedom of movement for people, capital and goods?
The reality is that there is no standard free trade agreement to cover the situation we find ourselves in because this situation is pretty much unique in the history of FTAs - two parties negotiating to raise barriers rather than to reduce them.
There won't be freedom of movement between people going forwards though.
Canada has not just thousands but tens of thousands of lorries pass through its border with the USA daily. So yes Canada style works there too. I have long advocated post Brexit that we will be the European equivalent of Canada to their USA. Ireland effectively being Alaska.
I see that @Philip_Thompson is back to the position of 1 moment ramping how a “Australian Style Deal” (no deal) is going to be sunlit uplands whilst the next moment whining incessantly how unfair the EU are being for not offering us exactly what Canada has.
🤷♂️
The only upside I can see from no deal is that Johnson and his crony sycophants will own it , lock stuck and barrell. Whatever they say.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
The moment Britain quits the CU and starts a FTA our commerce instantly becomes more expensive. A customs union is the removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members. Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs. Tariff revenue may then be shared between members, with the possibility that the country that collects the duty retaining a share, between 20 and 25% in the European customs union to cover the additional administration costs associated with border trade. That is an awful lot of money that helps with administration costs to be surrendering at stroke of a pen to be absorbed by our businesses.
One of the strongest arguments for a customs union over a simple free-trade agreement, is that it solves the problem of trade deflection. Trade deflection occurs when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided and further action is taken to deal with that. For example, assuming Europe operated a simple FTA, rather than a customs union, and if Germany imposes a high 40% tariff on Japanese cars, while France imposes just a 10% tariff, Japan would export its cars to French car dealers, and then re-sell them to Germany on a free-trade basis. This trade deflection is avoided if Germany and France (and others) form a customs union. can Britain outside really compete with Europe on this basis? Inside the EU Britaingains from trade creation massively outweigh the losses from trade diversion, becuase this isn’t just for final goods and resources, this is beneficial for supply chains integral to what the deindustrialising British economy has become, tariff free movement within the customs union for important supply chain.
That is far too detailed an explanation. You need to get it down to the level of airily waving a hand whilst talking about cake retention or unicorns.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Personally, the freedom to go to Sainsbury’s without encountering an hour long traffic jam, and the freedom to travel outside the county without a permit.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Up to now, if you met an EU citizen, fell in love with them and decided you wanted to make a life in the UK together you had the right to do so. Not anymore.
I see that @Philip_Thompson is back to the position of 1 moment ramping how a “Australian Style Deal” (no deal) is going to be sunlit uplands whilst the next moment whining incessantly how unfair the EU are being for not offering us exactly what Canada has.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
I don't know why you're "tackling any arguments" today. The details of the Deal will be announced very soon so you ought to be resting up in preparation for the Big Sell.
"Boris" expects, and it won't be easy. It will take everything you've got and it makes no sense to waste energy now.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Personally, the freedom to go to Sainsbury’s without encountering an hour long traffic jam, and the freedom to travel outside the county without a permit.
Oh, and the freedom for someone earning £18.6k a year or less to marry someone from the EU. (Edited for precision)
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
What are the standard FTA terms that are employed in a situation when literally thousands of lorries currently pass between two negotiating parties on a daily basis and where there is freedom of movement for people, capital and goods?
The reality is that there is no standard free trade agreement to cover the situation we find ourselves in because this situation is pretty much unique in the history of FTAs - two parties negotiating to raise barriers rather than to reduce them.
There won't be freedom of movement between people going forwards though.
Canada has not just thousands but tens of thousands of lorries pass through its border with the USA daily. So yes Canada style works there too. I have long advocated post Brexit that we will be the European equivalent of Canada to their USA. Ireland effectively being Alaska.
So the Canada style deal you are advocating is the one that Canada has with the US? The one in which there is freedom of movement?
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
The Kent Lorry Park problem will be partially resolved, only when UK businesses stop trading to the extent they do now, with consequences for jobs and wealth. It is a strange strategy to adopt, but it is the necessary partial solution to this particular problem.
Yes, Adam Smith’s invisible hand will work its magic eventually: The hauliers / ferry operators will raise prices until demand falls to match available capacity.
A harsh remedy indeed, if we're talking about the transport of food ...
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
Those 'imports' are not taxable at present!! And there is no need to pay £16 as well to the Post Office (which is a flat rate - so tough luck if what you want is maybe worth £10 or £20).
But of course we mustn't infringe on your freedom to fuck up our lives in so many ways, many much worse than that small but telling example.
I see that @Philip_Thompson is back to the position of 1 moment ramping how a “Australian Style Deal” (no deal) is going to be sunlit uplands whilst the next moment whining incessantly how unfair the EU are being for not offering us exactly what Canada has.
🤷♂️
The Albania-style deal is nearly upon us.
When Bettertogether types told us an indy Scotland would be a cold, wet Albania, I hadn't realised it was also the non indy option. Bit like threatening that an indy Scotland wouldn't be a member of the EU...
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
Well it is internal isn´t it? It is a drastic loss of choice of goods and a sharp increase in prices. You may live on faggots and Wensleydale, but for those that like Salami or French cheese...
It would have helped if the government had worked with the different sectors before embarking on negotiations. Instead the obsession with North Korean style sovereignty has become the main end point .
Sovereignty doesn’t pay the bills but Bozo and the rest will of course be alright whilst trying to use the EU as a scapegoat .
One wonders what the UK reaction would have been if the EU parliament were bringing forward legislation to over ride the WA they signed upto a year ago . And the reason the EU now want an even stronger governance model is because you can’t trust anything that Bozo says.
Absolute pure sovereignty only exists if you live in a log hut in a wilderness. Everything beyond that is a compromise- I don't get everything I want my way, but I get things I value most better, so that's worth it. After all, if I'm sovereign, they're sovereign too, and they might have more power than me.
From which it follows: 1 Libertarian principles aren't a good way to run a society (are there any examples beyond a few US state governors?) 2 Most people who read Ayn Rand grow out of it 3 If the UK is really navigating its Brexit plans by the Sovereignty Star, it's in trouble.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
The Kent Lorry Park problem will be partially resolved, only when UK businesses stop trading to the extent they do now, with consequences for jobs and wealth. It is a strange strategy to adopt, but it is the necessary partial solution to this particular problem.
Yes, Adam Smith’s invisible hand will work its magic eventually: The hauliers / ferry operators will raise prices until demand falls to match available capacity.
A harsh remedy indeed, if we're talking about the transport of food ...
This is what the people voted for, as PhilipT is so fond of reminding us. Clearly they should be given what they wanted, good & hard.
It would have helped if the government had worked with the different sectors before embarking on negotiations. Instead the obsession with North Korean style sovereignty has become the main end point .
Sovereignty doesn’t pay the bills but Bozo and the rest will of course be alright whilst trying to use the EU as a scapegoat .
One wonders what the UK reaction would have been if the EU parliament were bringing forward legislation to over ride the WA they signed upto a year ago . And the reason the EU now want an even stronger governance model is because you can’t trust anything that Bozo says.
Absolute pure sovereignty only exists if you live in a log hut in a wilderness.
And even then you'd better be careful to maintain perfect health until your dying day.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
I am enjoying you denying people the right to define what freedoms they have. As you have taken on that role, clearly it will be impossible for anyone to identify a freedom they have lost.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Like Mexico and the US, we’re going to be a rule and regulation taker from the EU going forward, in most areas where devising our own unique set of rules isn’t feasible or worthwhile. What we lose is any influence over what these regulations will be.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
The Kent Lorry Park problem will be partially resolved, only when UK businesses stop trading to the extent they do now, with consequences for jobs and wealth. It is a strange strategy to adopt, but it is the necessary partial solution to this particular problem.
Yes, Adam Smith’s invisible hand will work its magic eventually: The hauliers / ferry operators will raise prices until demand falls to match available capacity.
A harsh remedy indeed, if we're talking about the transport of food ...
This is what the people voted for, as PhilipT is so fond of reminding us. Clearly they should be given what they wanted, good & hard.
If only the people that voted for it could be given it, and let the rest of us carry on as we were.
Doug, I am not sure you live in the real world, where do you see me "losing my shit". You seem to be a bit unhinged and drama queenesque about things. Merely expressed my opinion that bagpipes were Scottish , hardly seems to be "losing my shit" to me sunshine. I think you may have led a very sheltered life.
In response to my post that said, wherever they originated, bagpipes are still Scottish, you replied “...only English fevered imaginations...”. Not a healthy way of expressing a view that, you say, agrees with my own. Bagpipes are Scottish, Baseball is American, Guinness is Ireland’s national drink (although stout originated in London) Belgo-Jewish fish and chips are England’s national dish, rugby from Warwickshire is New Zealand’s national sport. Yes, I have many many faults indeed but several years viewing some pretty disturbing stuff and meeting some more than unpleasant people in the criminal and civil justice systems allows me to assert that I have not been all that sheltered and to venture some tentative opinions on the anger your posts suggest.
What is interesting is how cultures absorb things, and make them their own.
There was a weird article in the Guardian a few years back - apparently people in Mexico were so take with the depiction of the Day of the Dead in the James Bond film that they had set about recreating parts of it. According to the write of the article this was a terrible act of cultural "pollution".... I must admit to mentally translating some of the phrases used into German......
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
The moment Britain quits the CU and starts a FTA our commerce instantly becomes more expensive. A customs union is the removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members. Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs. Tariff revenue may then be shared between members, with the possibility that the country that collects the duty retaining a share, between 20 and 25% in the European customs union to cover the additional administration costs associated with border trade. That is an awful lot of money that helps with administration costs to be surrendering at stroke of a pen to be absorbed by our businesses.
One of the strongest arguments for a customs union over a simple free-trade agreement, is that it solves the problem of trade deflection. Trade deflection occurs when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided and further action is taken to deal with that. For example, assuming Europe operated a simple FTA, rather than a customs union, and if Germany imposes a high 40% tariff on Japanese cars, while France imposes just a 10% tariff, Japan would export its cars to French car dealers, and then re-sell them to Germany on a free-trade basis. This trade deflection is avoided if Germany and France (and others) form a customs union. can Britain outside really compete with Europe on this basis? Inside the EU Britaingains from trade creation massively outweigh the losses from trade diversion, becuase this isn’t just for final goods and resources, this is beneficial for supply chains integral to what the deindustrialising British economy has become, tariff free movement within the customs union for important supply chain.
Yes that is a detailed argument to remain within a customs union. Kudos to you for that. But that argument lost the referendum five years ago and furthermore not just one but two General Elections since.
A customs union is off the table. Whether you think it right or wrong it has already been thrice rejected politically.
Not only that but the UK has already committed in law to exiting the Customs Union on 01/01/2021 and we have new Free Trade Agreements already signed ready to be implements from just a few weeks from now.
So the argument has boiled down to what type of free trade agreement we will sign and have, if any, once we are out of the customs union. All your arguments in favour of a customs union are no more relevant politically to the ongoing negotiations between Barnier and Frost than arguing that meat is murder when someone has already sat down in a steakhouse and is being asked how well done they want their steak.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Personally, the freedom to go to Sainsbury’s without encountering an hour long traffic jam, and the freedom to travel outside the county without a permit.
Oh, and the freedom for someone earning £18.6k a year or less to marry someone from the EU. (Edited for precision)
They can marry them. They just don't have the right to live with them in the UK anymore.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
Well it is internal isn´t it? It is a drastic loss of choice of goods and a sharp increase in prices. You may live on faggots and Wensleydale, but for those that like Salami or French cheese...
Exactly. When I get something from the hobby shop in Japan rather than Poland, the parcel is stopped for days and sometimes weeks in one of those big depots off the M1/M6 junction or somewhere like that. And the VAT and fee aree calculated and levied. And then they wait for me to pay before they even deign to begin delivery.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
Indeed - how many lorries travel between Canada and the EU each day?
But those same EU lorries need access to the UK to sell EU goods. In fact it's an unequal relationship given that we have a huge good deficit with the EU. We're giving EU haulage privileged access to the UK rather than making companies export by ships and then have UK haulage companies do the internal shipping.
You act as if it's a one way street and that the UK is asking for something that we are proposing to deny the EU. Brexit has completely addled your brains, Joff.
My brain is sharp enough to understand that the UK trades with one single EU market, while 27 individual countries trade with the UK, thus EU-wide deficits and surpluses are far less relevant to them than they are to us. My brain also realises that no lorries currently run between Canada and the EU each day so right there an issue exists that a Canada-style FTA can never cover.
That's why it's called the "Canada style" deal, unless you're suggesting that haulage is why the EU is insisting on the LPF and way over the top governance? As I said, haulage is an area where the EU benefits because it allows the 27 nations to operate in the UK as normal and we're a huge net importer of EU goods. In a no deal scenario the UK could put up a very simple NTB on haulage and say that all lorries must be right hand drive to operate on UK roads, suddenly EU haulage companies are locked out of the UK market and EU companies have to export by shipping container or rail freight. Once again, the UK has offered fair terms on this and aiui the EU has agreed to them.
The "Canada style" deal should be possible, that the EU are asking for all of these additional terms is on them and the UK is quite rightly saying no to the LPF and has successfully watered down governance to a post-action arbitration agreement rather than pre-action permission.
Doug, I am not sure you live in the real world, where do you see me "losing my shit". You seem to be a bit unhinged and drama queenesque about things. Merely expressed my opinion that bagpipes were Scottish , hardly seems to be "losing my shit" to me sunshine. I think you may have led a very sheltered life.
In response to my post that said, wherever they originated, bagpipes are still Scottish, you replied “...only English fevered imaginations...”. Not a healthy way of expressing a view that, you say, agrees with my own. Bagpipes are Scottish, Baseball is American, Guinness is Ireland’s national drink (although stout originated in London) Belgo-Jewish fish and chips are England’s national dish, rugby from Warwickshire is New Zealand’s national sport. Yes, I have many many faults indeed but several years viewing some pretty disturbing stuff and meeting some more than unpleasant people in the criminal and civil justice systems allows me to assert that I have not been all that sheltered and to venture some tentative opinions on the anger your posts suggest.
You cannot help yourself , you rate yourself far too highly , think you are really really clever and talk bullshit. Go analyse yourself and determine why your inferiority complex makes you stalk people who do not agree with your lofty opinions of yourself. I have said many times to stop stalking me , but fool me for actually replying to one of your posts. I will return to previous promises to ignore you and hopefully stick to it. Happy stalking.
The EU has already reduced its ask in terms of state aid . Bizarely the UK which never liked state aid is now using this as another excuse to crash the negotiations.
In terms of workers rights and environmental protections why is the UK refusing to have a minimum standard which they keep telling everyone the UK is well above anyway so why the drama over that .
The UK wants much more than a Canada FTA in a range of areas including things like the energy market so it’s yet another lie peddled by no 10 that the EU is moving the goalposts.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
I am enjoying you denying people the right to define what freedoms they have. As you have taken on that role, clearly it will be impossible for anyone to identify a freedom they have lost.
The claim was within these shores. Imports aren't within these shores by definition.
Name any freedom within these shores, not involving overseas that we have lost. I am not denying for a second that we have lost what some might term freedoms when it comes to dealing with abroad.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
I am enjoying you denying people the right to define what freedoms they have. As you have taken on that role, clearly it will be impossible for anyone to identify a freedom they have lost.
The claim was within these shores. Imports aren't within these shores by definition.
Name any freedom within these shores, not involving overseas that we have lost. I am not denying for a second that we have lost what some might term freedoms when it comes to dealing with abroad.
How is my ability to go to Sainsbury’s in Ashford without an hour long traffic jam something that involves “abroad”.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
I don't think the EU have an issue with any of this. But I don't think fish is the fundamental stumbling block. The big issue is the EU imposing its treatment of LPF on the UK when the UK does not commit to meeting those standards and implies that it intends to reduce them.
The "consideration for the sale" is the rest of the FTA that includes zero tariff/ zero quota market access. It does depend on the UK side valuing that preferential access.
But the UK has accepted their position will result in tariffs and quotas. You're chatting shit as always.
The deal in question is for zero tariffs and zero quotas. The shit is all yours,
But it's not, the UK conceded tariffs and quotas ages ago. Hence all of the doom about the car industry and agriculture even with a deal. I mean you've posted about it many times and it was a rare point of agreement.
I didn't post that, because the deal if it happens will be zero tariffs, zero quotas. The UK government did float the idea of some quotas and tariffs in exchange for concessions on LPF, to be more like Canada. The EU didn't play ball on that and pointed out that if you are going to negotiate tariff line items that massively extends the negotation.
The costs of a Deal for automotive and agriculture are non-tariff barriers. You still need to get your food checked on entry into the other country and provide proof of meeting content thresholds for rules of origin, plus other regulatory hurdles.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
I am enjoying you denying people the right to define what freedoms they have. As you have taken on that role, clearly it will be impossible for anyone to identify a freedom they have lost.
The claim was within these shores. Imports aren't within these shores by definition.
Name any freedom within these shores, not involving overseas that we have lost. I am not denying for a second that we have lost what some might term freedoms when it comes to dealing with abroad.
“Name anything you cannot do, not involving walking or running, that you have lost as a result of losing your leg.”
The EU has already reduced its ask in terms of state aid . Bizarely the UK which never liked state aid is now using this as another excuse to crash the negotiations.
In terms of workers rights and environmental protections why is the UK refusing to have a minimum standard which they keep telling everyone the UK is well above anyway so why the drama over that .
The UK wants much more than a Canada FTA in a range of areas including things like the energy market so it’s yet another lie peddled by no 10 that the EU is moving the goalposts.
It's not state aid, this characterisation of the LPF as state aid has been one of the worst developments of this process. The LPF covers a huge number of regulatory areas and asks for full future alignment, forever. It also leaves the EU as the judge of any breach of the LPF at which point the whole deal can be unilaterally suspended by the EU. At last reading the LPF covered state aid, environment, employment, tax and food standards. There is no single government in the world that would give up tax setting ability to a third party and while that demand exists from the EU, no deal is an inevitability. I've been saying this from the start when we went into the transition period and I'm about to be proven right.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
Well it is internal isn´t it? It is a drastic loss of choice of goods and a sharp increase in prices. You may live on faggots and Wensleydale, but for those that like Salami or French cheese...
No abroad is external not internal.
We can choose domestically how we tax imports and those taxes have always existed they're not new. If you don't like them, vote for a change.
I like stuff from all over the globe not just Europe. I see no reason to discriminate in favour of European goods against others. If the EU wish to agree as sovereign equals a Canada style free trade agreement then I am all in favour of that. I have never once preferred no deal.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
I am enjoying you denying people the right to define what freedoms they have. As you have taken on that role, clearly it will be impossible for anyone to identify a freedom they have lost.
The claim was within these shores. Imports aren't within these shores by definition.
Name any freedom within these shores, not involving overseas that we have lost. I am not denying for a second that we have lost what some might term freedoms when it comes to dealing with abroad.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
The moment Britain quits the CU and starts a FTA our commerce instantly becomes more expensive. A customs union is the removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members. Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs. Tariff revenue may then be shared between members, with the possibility that the country that collects the duty retaining a share, between 20 and 25% in the European customs union to cover the additional administration costs associated with border trade. That is an awful lot of money that helps with administration costs to be surrendering at stroke of a pen to be absorbed by our businesses.
One of the strongest arguments for a customs union over a simple free-trade agreement, is that it solves the problem of trade deflection. Trade deflection occurs when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided and further action is taken to deal with that. For example, assuming Europe operated a simple FTA, rather than a customs union, and if Germany imposes a high 40% tariff on Japanese cars, while France imposes just a 10% tariff, Japan would export its cars to French car dealers, and then re-sell them to Germany on a free-trade basis. This trade deflection is avoided if Germany and France (and others) form a customs union. can Britain outside really compete with Europe on this basis? Inside the EU Britaingains from trade creation massively outweigh the losses from trade diversion, becuase this isn’t just for final goods and resources, this is beneficial for supply chains integral to what the deindustrialising British economy has become, tariff free movement within the customs union for important supply chain.
Yes that is a detailed argument to remain within a customs union. Kudos to you for that. But that argument lost the referendum five years ago and furthermore not just one but two General Elections since.
A customs union is off the table. Whether you think it right or wrong it has already been thrice rejected politically.
Not only that but the UK has already committed in law to exiting the Customs Union on 01/01/2021 and we have new Free Trade Agreements already signed ready to be implements from just a few weeks from now.
So the argument has boiled down to what type of free trade agreement we will sign and have, if any, once we are out of the customs union. All your arguments in favour of a customs union are no more relevant politically to the ongoing negotiations between Barnier and Frost than arguing that meat is murder when someone has already sat down in a steakhouse and is being asked how well done they want their steak.
You sure.. The problem of ensuring UK cannot benefit from trade deflection, the have cake and eat it brexit, and the threat to our supply chains because we left the CU is surely part of the conversation? Genuine problems created that need a solution.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
Well it is internal isn´t it? It is a drastic loss of choice of goods and a sharp increase in prices. You may live on faggots and Wensleydale, but for those that like Salami or French cheese...
No abroad is external not internal.
We can choose domestically how we tax imports and those taxes have always existed they're not new. If you don't like them, vote for a change.
I like stuff from all over the globe not just Europe. I see no reason to discriminate in favour of European goods against others. If the EU wish to agree as sovereign equals a Canada style free trade agreement then I am all in favour of that. I have never once preferred no deal.
European goods tend not to be made by indentured labour any more.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
The moment Britain quits the CU and starts a FTA our commerce instantly becomes more expensive. A customs union is the removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members. Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs. Tariff revenue may then be shared between members, with the possibility that the country that collects the duty retaining a share, between 20 and 25% in the European customs union to cover the additional administration costs associated with border trade. That is an awful lot of money that helps with administration costs to be surrendering at stroke of a pen to be absorbed by our businesses.
One of the strongest arguments for a customs union over a simple free-trade agreement, is that it solves the problem of trade deflection. Trade deflection occurs when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided and further action is taken to deal with that. For example, assuming Europe operated a simple FTA, rather than a customs union, and if Germany imposes a high 40% tariff on Japanese cars, while France imposes just a 10% tariff, Japan would export its cars to French car dealers, and then re-sell them to Germany on a free-trade basis. This trade deflection is avoided if Germany and France (and others) form a customs union. can Britain outside really compete with Europe on this basis? Inside the EU Britaingains from trade creation massively outweigh the losses from trade diversion, because this isn’t just for final goods and resources, this is beneficial for supply chains integral to what the deindustrialising British economy has become, tariff free movement within the customs union for important supply chain.
The problem you have with this argument is that you are not distinguishing between 'a' customs union and 'The' Customs Union. The difference is crucial.
If you are outside the EU then you are not allowed to be in The Customs Union. This has never been on offer and is not now. Even the EFTA members of the EEA cannot be inside The Customs Union as it is an integral feature of the EU and as such is not available to any non EU members (with the exception of a few tiny territories).
So the only way to have the sort of customs union you are suggesting is to be inside a customs union. The only country that is in this situation is Turkey and it is a very poor position to be in. It basically means that any external country that has a trade agreement with the EU can trade into your country free of tariffs but you do not have the reciprocal right to trade into the third party country without your own trade agreement with them. This is why Turkey made clear that if the US/EU trade agreement went ahead they would have to leave the customs union with the EU. They simply couldn't afford to be in it.
What you want - the UK inside The Customs Union is forbidden by the basic treaties governing the existence of the EU.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
Well it is internal isn´t it? It is a drastic loss of choice of goods and a sharp increase in prices. You may live on faggots and Wensleydale, but for those that like Salami or French cheese...
No abroad is external not internal.
We can choose domestically how we tax imports and those taxes have always existed they're not new. If you don't like them, vote for a change.
I like stuff from all over the globe not just Europe. I see no reason to discriminate in favour of European goods against others. If the EU wish to agree as sovereign equals a Canada style free trade agreement then I am all in favour of that. I have never once preferred no deal.
Do you really want me to quote back at you the “bring it on” posts regarding No Deal you posted as recently as this morning. “Brilliant” was the word used IIRC.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
Well it is internal isn´t it? It is a drastic loss of choice of goods and a sharp increase in prices. You may live on faggots and Wensleydale, but for those that like Salami or French cheese...
No abroad is external not internal.
We can choose domestically how we tax imports and those taxes have always existed they're not new. If you don't like them, vote for a change.
I like stuff from all over the globe not just Europe. I see no reason to discriminate in favour of European goods against others. If the EU wish to agree as sovereign equals a Canada style free trade agreement then I am all in favour of that. I have never once preferred no deal.
European goods tend not to be made by indentured labour any more.
Don'ty give him ideas. He'll probably claim freedom is slavery.
It would have helped if the government had worked with the different sectors before embarking on negotiations. Instead the obsession with North Korean style sovereignty has become the main end point .
Sovereignty doesn’t pay the bills but Bozo and the rest will of course be alright whilst trying to use the EU as a scapegoat .
One wonders what the UK reaction would have been if the EU parliament were bringing forward legislation to over ride the WA they signed upto a year ago . And the reason the EU now want an even stronger governance model is because you can’t trust anything that Bozo says.
Absolute pure sovereignty only exists if you live in a log hut in a wilderness.
And even then you'd better be careful to maintain perfect health until your dying day.
Or you'll end up like old Ayn Rand, sovereignty deprived and dependent on the state in your impoverished and illness-plagued later years. Odd how the unfeeling, oppressive state ended up showing more care & compassion than that rugged individualists would have espoused for others.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
The moment Britain quits the CU and starts a FTA our commerce instantly becomes more expensive. A customs union is the removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members. Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs. Tariff revenue may then be shared between members, with the possibility that the country that collects the duty retaining a share, between 20 and 25% in the European customs union to cover the additional administration costs associated with border trade. That is an awful lot of money that helps with administration costs to be surrendering at stroke of a pen to be absorbed by our businesses.
One of the strongest arguments for a customs union over a simple free-trade agreement, is that it solves the problem of trade deflection. Trade deflection occurs when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided and further action is taken to deal with that. For example, assuming Europe operated a simple FTA, rather than a customs union, and if Germany imposes a high 40% tariff on Japanese cars, while France imposes just a 10% tariff, Japan would export its cars to French car dealers, and then re-sell them to Germany on a free-trade basis. This trade deflection is avoided if Germany and France (and others) form a customs union. can Britain outside really compete with Europe on this basis? Inside the EU Britaingains from trade creation massively outweigh the losses from trade diversion, becuase this isn’t just for final goods and resources, this is beneficial for supply chains integral to what the deindustrialising British economy has become, tariff free movement within the customs union for important supply chain.
Yes that is a detailed argument to remain within a customs union. Kudos to you for that. But that argument lost the referendum five years ago and furthermore not just one but two General Elections since.
A customs union is off the table. Whether you think it right or wrong it has already been thrice rejected politically.
Not only that but the UK has already committed in law to exiting the Customs Union on 01/01/2021 and we have new Free Trade Agreements already signed ready to be implements from just a few weeks from now.
So the argument has boiled down to what type of free trade agreement we will sign and have, if any, once we are out of the customs union. All your arguments in favour of a customs union are no more relevant politically to the ongoing negotiations between Barnier and Frost than arguing that meat is murder when someone has already sat down in a steakhouse and is being asked how well done they want their steak.
You sure.. The problem of ensuring UK cannot benefit from trade deflection, the have cake and eat it brexit, and the threat to our supply chains because we left the CU is surely part of the conversation? Genuine problems created that need a solution.
No it isn't. Frost and Barnier are not negotiating a customs union. It isn't even a part of the conversation. It hasn't been all along.
I see that @Philip_Thompson is back to the position of 1 moment ramping how a “Australian Style Deal” (no deal) is going to be sunlit uplands whilst the next moment whining incessantly how unfair the EU are being for not offering us exactly what Canada has.
🤷♂️
No whinging I am happy either way.
In case of trade terms I have long made my preference clear: Canada > Australia > bad deal.
If you’re not whinging then you should stop whinging.
It would have helped if the government had worked with the different sectors before embarking on negotiations. Instead the obsession with North Korean style sovereignty has become the main end point .
Sovereignty doesn’t pay the bills but Bozo and the rest will of course be alright whilst trying to use the EU as a scapegoat .
One wonders what the UK reaction would have been if the EU parliament were bringing forward legislation to over ride the WA they signed upto a year ago . And the reason the EU now want an even stronger governance model is because you can’t trust anything that Bozo says.
Absolute pure sovereignty only exists if you live in a log hut in a wilderness.
And even then you'd better be careful to maintain perfect health until your dying day.
Or you'll end up like old Ayn Rand, sovereignty deprived and dependent on the state in your impoverished and illness-plagued later years. Odd how the unfeeling, oppressive state ended up showing more care & compassion than that rugged individualists would have espoused for others.
Ayn Rand suffered a bad childhood trauma when the Russian communists tore up her family's life, home and settled existence, and she had to flee with them. She then exhibited a damaged and almost psychotic approach to other people throughout the rest of her life, with "the state" ( also simply representing other people ) acting as the strongest focus for all this trauma and anger.
I wonder if when sometime post January, the Government sits down and decides what it's policy is on international trade that will underpin its external approach for conducting trade negotiations going forward, it will decide that it is as odds with many if not all the positions it has been taking in the UK-EU "negotiations".
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
I am enjoying you denying people the right to define what freedoms they have. As you have taken on that role, clearly it will be impossible for anyone to identify a freedom they have lost.
The claim was within these shores. Imports aren't within these shores by definition.
Name any freedom within these shores, not involving overseas that we have lost. I am not denying for a second that we have lost what some might term freedoms when it comes to dealing with abroad.
Imports are within these shores by definition. They come from abroad and end up here.
I am not interested in your semantics. I am interested in the multiple freedoms I have lost as an individual and as a business owner. As a UK-based employer I have lost the freedom to recruit from the talent pool that was previously available, while also losing the freedom to sell my goods and services into an important market. As an individual, I have lost the freedom to work, study and travel in 30 countries that I had previously.
I understand totally that this does not bother you.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
Well it is internal isn´t it? It is a drastic loss of choice of goods and a sharp increase in prices. You may live on faggots and Wensleydale, but for those that like Salami or French cheese...
No abroad is external not internal.
We can choose domestically how we tax imports and those taxes have always existed they're not new. If you don't like them, vote for a change.
I like stuff from all over the globe not just Europe. I see no reason to discriminate in favour of European goods against others. If the EU wish to agree as sovereign equals a Canada style free trade agreement then I am all in favour of that. I have never once preferred no deal.
I wonder why one might prefer goods produced in Vietnam or China over those produced in the EU? Might it not have something to do with those pesky EU labour laws upping costs?
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
The moment Britain quits the CU and starts a FTA our commerce instantly becomes more expensive. A customs union is the removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members. Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs. Tariff revenue may then be shared between members, with the possibility that the country that collects the duty retaining a share, between 20 and 25% in the European customs union to cover the additional administration costs associated with border trade. That is an awful lot of money that helps with administration costs to be surrendering at stroke of a pen to be absorbed by our businesses.
One of the strongest arguments for a customs union over a simple free-trade agreement, is that it solves the problem of trade deflection. Trade deflection occurs when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided and further action is taken to deal with that. For example, assuming Europe operated a simple FTA, rather than a customs union, and if Germany imposes a high 40% tariff on Japanese cars, while France imposes just a 10% tariff, Japan would export its cars to French car dealers, and then re-sell them to Germany on a free-trade basis. This trade deflection is avoided if Germany and France (and others) form a customs union. can Britain outside really compete with Europe on this basis? Inside the EU Britaingains from trade creation massively outweigh the losses from trade diversion, becuase this isn’t just for final goods and resources, this is beneficial for supply chains integral to what the deindustrialising British economy has become, tariff free movement within the customs union for important supply chain.
Yes that is a detailed argument to remain within a customs union. Kudos to you for that. But that argument lost the referendum five years ago and furthermore not just one but two General Elections since.
A customs union is off the table. Whether you think it right or wrong it has already been thrice rejected politically.
Not only that but the UK has already committed in law to exiting the Customs Union on 01/01/2021 and we have new Free Trade Agreements already signed ready to be implements from just a few weeks from now.
So the argument has boiled down to what type of free trade agreement we will sign and have, if any, once we are out of the customs union. All your arguments in favour of a customs union are no more relevant politically to the ongoing negotiations between Barnier and Frost than arguing that meat is murder when someone has already sat down in a steakhouse and is being asked how well done they want their steak.
You sure.. The problem of ensuring UK cannot benefit from trade deflection, the have cake and eat it brexit, and the threat to our supply chains because we left the CU is surely part of the conversation? Genuine problems created that need a solution.
No it isn't. Frost and Barnier are not negotiating a customs union. It isn't even a part of the conversation. It hasn't been all along.
All that means is that the problems that a Customs Union resolves can't be resolved by a customs union. The problems are still there to be solved. Other mechanisms will need to be found. Which won't be easy.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Personally, the freedom to go to Sainsbury’s without encountering an hour long traffic jam, and the freedom to travel outside the county without a permit.
Oh, and the freedom for someone earning £18.6k a year or less to marry someone from the EU. (Edited for precision)
They can marry them. They just don't have the right to live with them in the UK anymore.
That reminds me of the lines from "A Man for All Seasons":
MORE (Hesitates) Might I have one or two more books? CROMWELL You have books? MORE Yes. CROMWELL I didn't know; you shouldn't have.
The EU has already reduced its ask in terms of state aid . Bizarely the UK which never liked state aid is now using this as another excuse to crash the negotiations.
In terms of workers rights and environmental protections why is the UK refusing to have a minimum standard which they keep telling everyone the UK is well above anyway so why the drama over that .
The UK wants much more than a Canada FTA in a range of areas including things like the energy market so it’s yet another lie peddled by no 10 that the EU is moving the goalposts.
It's not state aid, this characterisation of the LPF as state aid has been one of the worst developments of this process. The LPF covers a huge number of regulatory areas and asks for full future alignment, forever. It also leaves the EU as the judge of any breach of the LPF at which point the whole deal can be unilaterally suspended by the EU. At last reading the LPF covered state aid, environment, employment, tax and food standards. There is no single government in the world that would give up tax setting ability to a third party and while that demand exists from the EU, no deal is an inevitability. I've been saying this from the start when we went into the transition period and I'm about to be proven right.
You're probably right about the inevitable logic; there isn't an overlap between the UK's red lines an the EU's and it doesn't matter what we think about rights and wrongs.
But it does say that Johnson's campaigning guff since 2016 has turned out to be not true.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
Well it is internal isn´t it? It is a drastic loss of choice of goods and a sharp increase in prices. You may live on faggots and Wensleydale, but for those that like Salami or French cheese...
No abroad is external not internal.
We can choose domestically how we tax imports and those taxes have always existed they're not new. If you don't like them, vote for a change.
I like stuff from all over the globe not just Europe. I see no reason to discriminate in favour of European goods against others. If the EU wish to agree as sovereign equals a Canada style free trade agreement then I am all in favour of that. I have never once preferred no deal.
Do you really want me to quote back at you the “bring it on” posts regarding No Deal you posted as recently as this morning. “Brilliant” was the word used IIRC.
If the EU aren't prepared to compromise, absolutely yes.
It's like getting a silver medal in the Olymoicsz it may not be your first preference but it is still a good outcome.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I don’t mind being called buttercup, it’s kinda cute.
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
I will tackle that argument by saying it is a lie.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
The moment Britain quits the CU and starts a FTA our commerce instantly becomes more expensive. A customs union is the removal of tariff barriers between members, together with acceptance of a common tariff against non-members. Countries that export to the customs union only need to make a single payment once the goods have passed through the border. Once inside goods can move freely without additional tariffs. Tariff revenue may then be shared between members, with the possibility that the country that collects the duty retaining a share, between 20 and 25% in the European customs union to cover the additional administration costs associated with border trade. That is an awful lot of money that helps with administration costs to be surrendering at stroke of a pen to be absorbed by our businesses.
One of the strongest arguments for a customs union over a simple free-trade agreement, is that it solves the problem of trade deflection. Trade deflection occurs when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided and further action is taken to deal with that. For example, assuming Europe operated a simple FTA, rather than a customs union, and if Germany imposes a high 40% tariff on Japanese cars, while France imposes just a 10% tariff, Japan would export its cars to French car dealers, and then re-sell them to Germany on a free-trade basis. This trade deflection is avoided if Germany and France (and others) form a customs union. can Britain outside really compete with Europe on this basis? Inside the EU Britaingains from trade creation massively outweigh the losses from trade diversion, becuase this isn’t just for final goods and resources, this is beneficial for supply chains integral to what the deindustrialising British economy has become, tariff free movement within the customs union for important supply chain.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
As individuals we have far less freedom in our own shores than Irish citizens who live here. British citizens, as individuals, have far less freedom than before. So we are second class. As a follower of Ayn Rand surely you must chafe at the loss of individual freedom at the expense of the state getting theoretically getting more (freedom it can’t even exercise de facto)?
Name one freedom we have lost domestically please, within our own shores.
Not to have to pay UK VAT AND a £16 handling fee to the Post Office whenever I buy something from an European shop by mail order.
That's not a freedom. Taxes need to be paid on imports, that isn't new. 🤷🏻♂️
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
I am enjoying you denying people the right to define what freedoms they have. As you have taken on that role, clearly it will be impossible for anyone to identify a freedom they have lost.
The claim was within these shores. Imports aren't within these shores by definition.
Name any freedom within these shores, not involving overseas that we have lost. I am not denying for a second that we have lost what some might term freedoms when it comes to dealing with abroad.
Imports are within these shores by definition. They come from abroad and end up here.
I am not interested in your semantics. I am interested in the multiple freedoms I have lost as an individual and as a business owner. As a UK-based employer I have lost the freedom to recruit from the talent pool that was previously available, while also losing the freedom to sell my goods and services into an important market. As an individual, I have lost the freedom to work, study and travel in 30 countries that I had previously.
I understand totally that this does not bother you.
Yes stuff relating to abroad that were debated in 2016, not disputing that.
The EU has already reduced its ask in terms of state aid . Bizarely the UK which never liked state aid is now using this as another excuse to crash the negotiations.
In terms of workers rights and environmental protections why is the UK refusing to have a minimum standard which they keep telling everyone the UK is well above anyway so why the drama over that .
The UK wants much more than a Canada FTA in a range of areas including things like the energy market so it’s yet another lie peddled by no 10 that the EU is moving the goalposts.
It's not state aid, this characterisation of the LPF as state aid has been one of the worst developments of this process. The LPF covers a huge number of regulatory areas and asks for full future alignment, forever. It also leaves the EU as the judge of any breach of the LPF at which point the whole deal can be unilaterally suspended by the EU. At last reading the LPF covered state aid, environment, employment, tax and food standards. There is no single government in the world that would give up tax setting ability to a third party and while that demand exists from the EU, no deal is an inevitability. I've been saying this from the start when we went into the transition period and I'm about to be proven right.
You're probably right about the inevitable logic; there isn't an overlap between the UK's red lines an the EU's and it doesn't matter what we think about rights and wrongs.
But it does say that Johnson's campaigning guff since 2016 has turned out to be not true.
Boris is a liar? I had no idea.
Though, this is why the UK should have been preparing for no deal for the whole 4 years, not just for last few months. Unfortunately Theresa May was a fool and Boris is a knave.
I don't completely understand why the possibility that the UK could suffer a total economic and societal breakdown is rarely considered. Why shouldn't it? We are cutting ourselves off and isolating ourselves from the world. Many of the integrated systems which formerly helped to prevent such things (by creating interdependence between countries and their neighbours) are being severed. There are plenty of examples of countries completely collapsing whilst surrounded by countries surviving relatively unscathed.
Comments
How do you tackle the argument someone right next door cannot have a Canada style deal. That our geographical position to EU means many benefits offered to Canada Japan for example we cannot in all fairness be allowed to have?
The "consideration for the sale" is the rest of the FTA that includes zero tariff/ zero quota market access. It does depend on the UK side valuing that preferential access.
A trump card they play without ever being challenged as to its veracity.
Yes - France - and serve those despicable froggies right!
I think it’s only Murray Walker (95) of the great TV commentators left now.
Sovereignty doesn’t pay the bills but Bozo and the rest will of course be alright whilst trying to use the EU as a scapegoat .
One wonders what the UK reaction would have been if the EU parliament were bringing forward legislation to over ride the WA they signed upto a year ago . And the reason the EU now want an even stronger governance model is because you can’t trust anything that Bozo says.
Of course countries next door to each other can have simple free trade agreements. Countries next door to each other all over the globe have simple free trade agreements.
If the EU don't want to offer us that then that is a political choice, it is not a case of "cannot". The outcome of their political choice will be No Deal, because they chose not to compromise. We are under no obligation whatsoever to go further than a standard free trade agreement.
He’s not that tall, only 6’1”, but Lewis and Valtteri are both 5’7” ish.
You act as if it's a one way street and that the UK is asking for something that we are proposing to deny the EU. Brexit has completely addled your brains, Joff.
Frost has said he is ok negotiating not zero tariffs and zero quotas.
The reality is that there is no standard free trade agreement to cover the situation we find ourselves in because this situation is pretty much unique in the history of FTAs - two parties negotiating to raise barriers rather than to reduce them.
🤷♂️
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/golf/29757316
In case of trade terms I have long made my preference clear: Canada > Australia > bad deal.
One of the strongest arguments for a customs union over a simple free-trade agreement, is that it solves the problem of trade deflection. Trade deflection occurs when non-members ship goods to a low tariff FTA member (or set up a subsidiary in the low tariff country) and re-ship to a high tariff FTA member. Hence, without a unified external tariff, trade flows become one-sided and further action is taken to deal with that. For example, assuming Europe operated a simple FTA, rather than a customs union, and if Germany imposes a high 40% tariff on Japanese cars, while France imposes just a 10% tariff, Japan would export its cars to French car dealers, and then re-sell them to Germany on a free-trade basis. This trade deflection is avoided if Germany and France (and others) form a customs union.
can Britain outside really compete with Europe on this basis? Inside the EU Britaingains from trade creation massively outweigh the losses from trade diversion, becuase
this isn’t just for final goods and resources, this is beneficial for supply chains integral to what the deindustrialising British economy has become, tariff free movement within the customs union for important supply chain.
I have said many times to stop stalking me , but fool me for actually replying to one of your posts. I will return to previous promises to ignore you and hopefully stick to it. Happy stalking.
Canada has not just thousands but tens of thousands of lorries pass through its border with the USA daily. So yes Canada style works there too. I have long advocated post Brexit that we will be the European equivalent of Canada to their USA. Ireland effectively being Alaska.
Whatever they say.
That is far too detailed an explanation. You need to get it down to the level of airily waving a hand whilst talking about cake retention or unicorns.
Imports aren't from within our own shores either, that's kind of the point.
"Boris" expects, and it won't be easy. It will take everything you've got and it makes no sense to waste energy now.
But of course we mustn't infringe on your freedom to fuck up our lives in so many ways, many much worse than that small but telling example.
Everyone knows that politicians are there to take the blame.
Their only hope is palming off the blame for their own failings onto some other country’s politicians.
From which it follows:
1 Libertarian principles aren't a good way to run a society (are there any examples beyond a few US state governors?)
2 Most people who read Ayn Rand grow out of it
3 If the UK is really navigating its Brexit plans by the Sovereignty Star, it's in trouble.
There was a weird article in the Guardian a few years back - apparently people in Mexico were so take with the depiction of the Day of the Dead in the James Bond film that they had set about recreating parts of it. According to the write of the article this was a terrible act of cultural "pollution".... I must admit to mentally translating some of the phrases used into German......
A customs union is off the table. Whether you think it right or wrong it has already been thrice rejected politically.
Not only that but the UK has already committed in law to exiting the Customs Union on 01/01/2021 and we have new Free Trade Agreements already signed ready to be implements from just a few weeks from now.
So the argument has boiled down to what type of free trade agreement we will sign and have, if any, once we are out of the customs union. All your arguments in favour of a customs union are no more relevant politically to the ongoing negotiations between Barnier and Frost than arguing that meat is murder when someone has already sat down in a steakhouse and is being asked how well done they want their steak.
The "Canada style" deal should be possible, that the EU are asking for all of these additional terms is on them and the UK is quite rightly saying no to the LPF and has successfully watered down governance to a post-action arbitration agreement rather than pre-action permission.
In terms of workers rights and environmental protections why is the UK refusing to have a minimum standard which they keep telling everyone the UK is well above anyway so why the drama over that .
The UK wants much more than a Canada FTA in a range of areas including things like the energy market so it’s yet another lie peddled by no 10 that the EU is moving the goalposts.
Name any freedom within these shores, not involving overseas that we have lost. I am not denying for a second that we have lost what some might term freedoms when it comes to dealing with abroad.
The costs of a Deal for automotive and agriculture are non-tariff barriers. You still need to get your food checked on entry into the other country and provide proof of meeting content thresholds for rules of origin, plus other regulatory hurdles.
We can choose domestically how we tax imports and those taxes have always existed they're not new. If you don't like them, vote for a change.
I like stuff from all over the globe not just Europe. I see no reason to discriminate in favour of European goods against others. If the EU wish to agree as sovereign equals a Canada style free trade agreement then I am all in favour of that. I have never once preferred no deal.
If you are outside the EU then you are not allowed to be in The Customs Union. This has never been on offer and is not now. Even the EFTA members of the EEA cannot be inside The Customs Union as it is an integral feature of the EU and as such is not available to any non EU members (with the exception of a few tiny territories).
So the only way to have the sort of customs union you are suggesting is to be inside a customs union. The only country that is in this situation is Turkey and it is a very poor position to be in. It basically means that any external country that has a trade agreement with the EU can trade into your country free of tariffs but you do not have the reciprocal right to trade into the third party country without your own trade agreement with them. This is why Turkey made clear that if the US/EU trade agreement went ahead they would have to leave the customs union with the EU. They simply couldn't afford to be in it.
What you want - the UK inside The Customs Union is forbidden by the basic treaties governing the existence of the EU.
I am not interested in your semantics. I am interested in the multiple freedoms I have lost as an individual and as a business owner. As a UK-based employer I have lost the freedom to recruit from the talent pool that was previously available, while also losing the freedom to sell my goods and services into an important market. As an individual, I have lost the freedom to work, study and travel in 30 countries that I had previously.
I understand totally that this does not bother you.
MORE (Hesitates) Might I have one or two more books?
CROMWELL You have books?
MORE Yes.
CROMWELL I didn't know; you shouldn't have.
But it does say that Johnson's campaigning guff since 2016 has turned out to be not true.
It's like getting a silver medal in the Olymoicsz it may not be your first preference but it is still a good outcome.
Though, this is why the UK should have been preparing for no deal for the whole 4 years, not just for last few months. Unfortunately Theresa May was a fool and Boris is a knave.
Why couldn't it happen here?