According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
I once ordered (or rather it was ordered for me) a sea stew in Korea.
Whatever slunk, crept, cuttled, or jellied across the Korean sea waters was in that stew.
I was not able to eat more than a mouthful. But I would eat more fish, if I could.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
Like the story of someone willing to have sex for £1M, but not for £5, the principle of allowing EU boats to fish in UK waters has been conceded, we are just haggling over the price...
If we go to No Deal then that offer will be withdrawn and as Marr has just mentioned on BBC1 EU fishing boats will be banned from British waters, I presume enforced by the Royal Navy
There's a special agency for it, although the coastguard and RN vessels might be involved as well. None of them have very many ships available for effective enforcement, though, given the huge amount and extent of waters involved. The agency has bought 2 (two, as in one and then another) extra vessels in preparation for Brexit.
Plenty of kippers around the Kent coast who can no doubt be recruited to man the coastguard fishing enforcement vessels
Ah, we’re at the Volkssturm stage of Brexit I see. We know how that turned out...
More the Home Guard.
And we know how that turned out.
(Into one of our most loved sitcoms.)
A shyte remake, nostalgia ridden, backward looking and unloved is how it turned out.
But enough of the next Scottish independence campaign.....
The one that your leader is running scared from?
The one the leader of the United Kingdom is staying resolute on.
That the leader of the SNP can so easily run away from her Party's "once in a generation" pledge tells you all you need to know.
LOL, unionists really are like broken records, they repeat their lies ad nauseum. Even if they had said it no politician can bind a future government , it is very clear it was never said in any event. Show me where on the Edinburgh agreement that is stated.
Like the story of someone willing to have sex for £1M, but not for £5, the principle of allowing EU boats to fish in UK waters has been conceded, we are just haggling over the price...
If we go to No Deal then that offer will be withdrawn and as Marr has just mentioned on BBC1 EU fishing boats will be banned from British waters, I presume enforced by the Royal Navy
There's a special agency for it, although the coastguard and RN vessels might be involved as well. None of them have very many ships available for effective enforcement, though, given the huge amount and extent of waters involved. The agency has bought 2 (two, as in one and then another) extra vessels in preparation for Brexit.
Plenty of kippers around the Kent coast who can no doubt be recruited to man the coastguard fishing enforcement vessels
Ah, we’re at the Volkssturm stage of Brexit I see. We know how that turned out...
More the Home Guard.
And we know how that turned out.
(Into one of our most loved sitcoms.)
A shyte remake, nostalgia ridden, backward looking and unloved is how it turned out.
But enough of the next Scottish independence campaign.....
The one that your leader is running scared from?
The one the leader of the United Kingdom is staying resolute on.
That the leader of the SNP can so easily run away from her Party's "once in a generation" pledge tells you all you need to know.
'Liked' by HYUFD.
At least it's clear exactly which side of British nationalism you're coming from.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
It will be quicker to go to Ireland and get ferry from Rosslare than to try and go from England, will be fun when Dover ferry ends up as a 3 day journey.
Really feels like Lord Frost should have had his peerage held back until he actually suceeded in his task, not before. I mean, Corbyn didn't nominate Chakrabarti before he'd gotten what he needed.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
Like the story of someone willing to have sex for £1M, but not for £5, the principle of allowing EU boats to fish in UK waters has been conceded, we are just haggling over the price...
If we go to No Deal then that offer will be withdrawn and as Marr has just mentioned on BBC1 EU fishing boats will be banned from British waters, I presume enforced by the Royal Navy
There's a special agency for it, although the coastguard and RN vessels might be involved as well. None of them have very many ships available for effective enforcement, though, given the huge amount and extent of waters involved. The agency has bought 2 (two, as in one and then another) extra vessels in preparation for Brexit.
Plenty of kippers around the Kent coast who can no doubt be recruited to man the coastguard fishing enforcement vessels
Ah, we’re at the Volkssturm stage of Brexit I see. We know how that turned out...
More the Home Guard.
And we know how that turned out.
(Into one of our most loved sitcoms.)
A shyte remake, nostalgia ridden, backward looking and unloved is how it turned out.
But enough of the next Scottish independence campaign.....
The one that your leader is running scared from?
The one the leader of the United Kingdom is staying resolute on.
That the leader of the SNP can so easily run away from her Party's "once in a generation" pledge tells you all you need to know.
Fake news, there was never a pledge from the SNP. More Johnsonian bullshit.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
I once ordered (or rather it was ordered for me) a sea stew in Korea.
Whatever slunk, crept, cuttled, or jellied across the Korean sea waters was in that stew.
I was not able to eat more than a mouthful. But I would eat more fish, if I could.
Would you eat more herring?
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
It might be a religious thing: in catholic countries you eat fish on Fridays and in Lent as it doesn't count as meat, so in protestant countries perhaps people avoided fish to demonstrate that they were not catholic?
This is wild speculation on my part btw: I'd be amazed if it turned out to be the actual reason...
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
It might be a religious thing: in catholic countries you eat fish on Fridays and in Lent as it doesn't count as meat, so in protestant countries perhaps people avoided fish to demonstrate that they were not catholic?
This is wild speculation on my part btw: I'd be amazed if it turned out to be the actual reason...
I doubt it.
I feel like fish - with certain exceptions - was deemed working class. Whelks, bloaters, prawns, mussels, eel, even haddock.
As soon as folks got more money, they graduated to beef and chicken.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
Some on here apparently, why do they keep trying to promote it.
1. OGH says the only correct poll is the one you like the look of. Does it also influence you betting? On average polls show Dems only narrowly ahead 2 points at best with lots of independents saying don’t know.
2. Trump did well in the presidential election,
He got a lower vote share than Romney
And this is a Senate election. As people are wont of saying, Trump is not on the ballot.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
I think Malc meant 'perfected' in Scotland!
I think the sound of massed pipes can fairly be said to have been invented in/by Scotland. I was also going to add the word skirl but I find that it's likely of old Norse origin.
In civvy street they have around five crews per airframe, with FTLs of 100hr/month and 900hr/year.
Forgot to mention that NATO currency specs are 180 hours/year. I flew the F/A-2 for six years and racked up just over 1,000 hours in total.
Wow, they don’t use em much, do they? I did 1,000 hours in less than six years in my glider!
Pre-pandemic, BA used to get at least 800 hours from a pilot, Virgin were known as easy on pilots, running them closer to 600. Ryanair would be upset if they only got 899 out of you! Emirates used to average something totally mad like 18 hours a day for each airframe, they really didn’t like places such Heathrow where there is a seven-hour night curfew. The old BA 747s used to average well over 100,000 hours over their lifetime.
They were on here the other day telling people that the ending of reciprocal healthcare was a Good Thing ™ because it was immoral to have other health systems paying.
So I will expect them to greet this news with joy...
In fact, a broad cross-section of people (Leavers & Remainers) spent several hours trying to explain to you that someone with serious health conditions should not be travelling without medical insurance.
A relevant question might be -- as there are non EU counties in EHIC (Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein or Switzerland) -- why exactly has the UK government decided to opt out?
I never said that someone with serious health issues should be insurance free. I said it was often used by healthy people as an excuse not to buy insurance. The posts are there if you want to go back and check.
And PB's resident GP tried to explain to you why the EHIC was sometimes the only cover some people could get....
Excuses not to get health insurance are not necessary.
If people are too sick to get insurance they maybe shouldn't be traveling?
So let's make it impossible for them to do so, rather than make their own decision. There's libertarianism for you, right there.
If people are so breathtakingly moronic they thought EHIC would cover them adequately for a skiing holiday, maybe they should have their passports confiscated. Happy with that?
How are we making it impossible for them? They can purchase insurance if they want to, there will be no ban on sales of insurance.
I don't think you understand what libertarianism is. You seem to think the state facilitating and providing for everything: insurance, NIMBYism on other people's land etc is libertarian rather than people choosing for themselves what they want to do.
It is about increasing people's options. You appear to take pleasure in limiting them. Limitations are still limitations whether they are legal or financial.
And dismissing planning constraints as "nimbyism" is cartoon thinking.
If I were in charge I'd always make sure the smallest vessels had the most ridiculously tough seeming names. Like even simple Zodiac kind of vessel would be the HMS Colossos or HMS Dreadmonger
It's a common pattern in massive multi-player games where you're mostly interacting with people you don't know. I always prefer to attack someone called Mighty Beowulf than players called Cute Kitten or similar.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
Some on here apparently, why do they keep trying to promote it.
Malc, my point is that there are a lot of things that are quintessentially of a place that were not invented there. Baseball was not invented in the US. Fish and Chips it appears are not an English invention. There are lots of sources attesting to bagpipes outside Scotland before they are recorded there and those sources are not English. I’m not making a pro or anti anyone point. It’s just a fact.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
I think Malc meant 'perfected' in Scotland!
I think the sound of massed pipes can fairly be said to have been invented in/by Scotland. I was also going to add the word skirl but I find it's likely of old Norse origin.
But the instrument? It wouldn't deprive Scotland of its association with them if it was the case that the instrument itself originally came from elsewhere, so I don't know what the fuss is about if they weren't.
Like the story of someone willing to have sex for £1M, but not for £5, the principle of allowing EU boats to fish in UK waters has been conceded, we are just haggling over the price...
If we go to No Deal then that offer will be withdrawn and as Marr has just mentioned on BBC1 EU fishing boats will be banned from British waters, I presume enforced by the Royal Navy
All waters? How many ships will that take?
The RN has a surfeit of OPVs for fisheries enforcement as delays to the T26 program meant the MoD had to order a batch of River Class vessels it didn't need to keep BAE happy.
RN and coastguard patrols also have migrants in dinghies and Russian subs tapping our Channel cables to worry about, of course. And drug smuggling.
Biter and Smiter - Elven Swords out of the Hobbit? Blazer and Dasher - Aren't those Rudolf's chums?
"Bird Class" "Small Bird Class" - budget cut?
It gets better as it goes back in time.
Old C18/C19 sloops and the like I think - though some of those names were, in WW2, used for escort carriers built on the cheap in the emergency. HMS Dasher and Avenger infamously blew up in incidents caused by petrol vapour accumulation.
If I were in charge I'd always make sure the smallest vessels had the most ridiculously tough seeming names. Like even simple Zodiac kind of vessel would be the HMS Colossos or HMS Dreadmonger
It's a common pattern in massive multi-player games where you're mostly interacting with people you don't know. I always prefer to attack someone called Mighty Beowulf than players called Cute Kitten or similar.
There goes my plan to change my PBhandle to MassiveToughGuy
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
I think Malc meant 'perfected' in Scotland!
I think the sound of massed pipes can fairly be said to have been invented in/by Scotland. I was also going to add the word skirl but I find that it's likely of old Norse origin.
They were on here the other day telling people that the ending of reciprocal healthcare was a Good Thing ™ because it was immoral to have other health systems paying.
So I will expect them to greet this news with joy...
In fact, a broad cross-section of people (Leavers & Remainers) spent several hours trying to explain to you that someone with serious health conditions should not be travelling without medical insurance.
A relevant question might be -- as there are non EU counties in EHIC (Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein or Switzerland) -- why exactly has the UK government decided to opt out?
I never said that someone with serious health issues should be insurance free. I said it was often used by healthy people as an excuse not to buy insurance. The posts are there if you want to go back and check.
And PB's resident GP tried to explain to you why the EHIC was sometimes the only cover some people could get....
Excuses not to get health insurance are not necessary.
If people are too sick to get insurance they maybe shouldn't be traveling?
So let's make it impossible for them to do so, rather than make their own decision. There's libertarianism for you, right there.
If people are so breathtakingly moronic they thought EHIC would cover them adequately for a skiing holiday, maybe they should have their passports confiscated. Happy with that?
How are we making it impossible for them? They can purchase insurance if they want to, there will be no ban on sales of insurance.
I don't think you understand what libertarianism is. You seem to think the state facilitating and providing for everything: insurance, NIMBYism on other people's land etc is libertarian rather than people choosing for themselves what they want to do.
It is about increasing people's options. You appear to take pleasure in limiting them. Limitations are still limitations whether they are legal or financial.
And dismissing planning constraints as "nimbyism" is cartoon thinking.
People having to pay for something that isn't free is not a limitation, it's a cost. If only we had a way for people to pay costs ...
Planning constraints like safety concerns, building standards etc are absolutely entirely valid. Every country has them and for good reason.
Restricting people's ability to build on their own land as you want to artificially constrain the supply of homes in order to make houses artificially more expensive than the market would otherwise be ... because who cares if other people can afford a home? Because you're alright Jack and you want your house price inflated and others to be forced to suffer because of artificially high house prices is despicable.
Funny how you're worried about the financial limitation of maybe a couple of hundred pounds at the most for a holiday but not the financial limitation of tens of thousands of pounds in house prices. There's only one word for that and that word is hypocrisy.
1. OGH says the only correct poll is the one you like the look of. Does it also influence you betting? On average polls show Dems only narrowly ahead 2 points at best with lots of independents saying don’t know.
2. Trump did well in the presidential election, second biggest vote share in history. Trump got millions of unlikely voters to the polls and while they were there, they voted a straight Republican ticket. This is because he is doing something that works. He painted Hilary Clinton as crooked and useless, and it works. the election we just had, has to be classed as a Democrat defeat, right down ticket (apart from headline wh) the the GOP win came in a high-turnout presidential election year, when Democrats normally do well. This is because the Democrats have successfully been painted as far too left, controlled by the squad, every candidate defund the police, this is how every candidate is now seen.
3. Just like in November election, if polls show dem candidates ahead, sometimes big margins, but they end up losing, then surely Witches have been burnt at the stake for less?
Possible - but that’s not what happened with the November polls in Georgia.
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
1. OGH says the only correct poll is the one you like the look of. Does it also influence you betting? On average polls show Dems only narrowly ahead 2 points at best with lots of independents saying don’t know.
2. Trump did well in the presidential election,
He got a lower vote share than Romney
And this is a Senate election. As people are wont of saying, Trump is not on the ballot.
By January 4th when the runoff is Biden will have been formally elected the next President when the Electoral College meets on December 14th and the House will also still be in Democratic hands, the Democrats having won enough seats to maintain the chamber.
So the runoff will be the only chance to stop a Democratic clean sweep of the Federal government which will drive GOP turnout and do not forget on election day in Georgia GOP incumbent Senator Perdue got 49.7% of the vote to Osoff's 47.9%, so Perdue was only 0.4% off winning outright without the need for a runoff anyway.
Purdue therefore slightly outperformed Trump and Osoff significantly underperformed Biden's voteshare in Georgia
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
It might be a religious thing: in catholic countries you eat fish on Fridays and in Lent as it doesn't count as meat, so in protestant countries perhaps people avoided fish to demonstrate that they were not catholic?
This is wild speculation on my part btw: I'd be amazed if it turned out to be the actual reason...
Actually, it probably does have quite a lot to do with it. Kent, as Gauis, in King Lear caps his list of why he would be a suitable servant by saying he eats no fish on Friday.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
Imo, its not fish specific, many here simply dont want their food to resemble a living creature. Modern life allows us a mental fiction that separates food from animals or fish. So for fish we want a deboned fillet, preferably surrounded by batter.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
You’re a very angry man. I’m sorry that something causes you so much pain. If you ever need to talk DM me. Life doesn’t have to have this much hate. I’m not a unionist either so you don’t have to worry about that.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
I think Malc meant 'perfected' in Scotland!
I think the sound of massed pipes can fairly be said to have been invented in/by Scotland. I was also going to add the word skirl but I find it's likely of old Norse origin.
But the instrument? It wouldn't deprive Scotland of its association with them if it was the case that the instrument itself originally came from elsewhere, so I don't know what the fuss is about if they weren't.
Who knows Kle, for sure in known history it is synonymous of Scotland. The usual dumbheaded jingoistic English nationalists just cannot bear thinking that Scotland can do anything. They have to try and belittle it every time. Small but annoying bunch of sad little gits that they are.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
I think Malc meant 'perfected' in Scotland!
I think the sound of massed pipes can fairly be said to have been invented in/by Scotland. I was also going to add the word skirl but I find it's likely of old Norse origin.
But the instrument? It wouldn't deprive Scotland of its association with them if it was the case that the instrument itself originally came from elsewhere, so I don't know what the fuss is about if they weren't.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
What would convince you? Honest question, I have not studied the history of bagpipes so have no idea where they were invented, but on what do you base your belief that they were invented in Scotland? You are responding very intensely about it so you cannot say it is unimportant to you. I mean, no one disputes they are associated with Scotland more than anywhere else. The Chinese claim to have invented golf, but that doesn't mean anything about which places it is associated with more.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
Don't you even have a fish van or two that comes round weekly? What a shame. We do, fish from Eyemouth on the Berwickshire coast. The local Tescos has a fish counter but IIRC it is now closed.
Like the story of someone willing to have sex for £1M, but not for £5, the principle of allowing EU boats to fish in UK waters has been conceded, we are just haggling over the price...
If we go to No Deal then that offer will be withdrawn and as Marr has just mentioned on BBC1 EU fishing boats will be banned from British waters, I presume enforced by the Royal Navy
There's a special agency for it, although the coastguard and RN vessels might be involved as well. None of them have very many ships available for effective enforcement, though, given the huge amount and extent of waters involved. The agency has bought 2 (two, as in one and then another) extra vessels in preparation for Brexit.
Plenty of kippers around the Kent coast who can no doubt be recruited to man the coastguard fishing enforcement vessels
Ah, we’re at the Volkssturm stage of Brexit I see. We know how that turned out...
More the Home Guard.
And we know how that turned out.
(Into one of our most loved sitcoms.)
A shyte remake, nostalgia ridden, backward looking and unloved is how it turned out.
But enough of the next Scottish independence campaign.....
The one that your leader is running scared from?
The one the leader of the United Kingdom is staying resolute on.
That the leader of the SNP can so easily run away from her Party's "once in a generation" pledge tells you all you need to know.
Fake news, there was never a pledge from the SNP. More Johnsonian bullshit.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
I think Malc meant 'perfected' in Scotland!
I think the sound of massed pipes can fairly be said to have been invented in/by Scotland. I was also going to add the word skirl but I find it's likely of old Norse origin.
But the instrument? It wouldn't deprive Scotland of its association with them if it was the case that the instrument itself originally came from elsewhere, so I don't know what the fuss is about if they weren't.
Sure, I'm definitely not making a fuss about it!
I think it's the rage and anger at being so comprehensively fooled by Wattie Scott - only known person to get a German king to wear pink tights and a skirt in public.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
Well, then. You now have an opportunity to restore the Welsh fishing industry. All you need is a coracle.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
Some on here apparently, why do they keep trying to promote it.
Malc, my point is that there are a lot of things that are quintessentially of a place that were not invented there. Baseball was not invented in the US. Fish and Chips it appears are not an English invention. There are lots of sources attesting to bagpipes outside Scotland before they are recorded there and those sources are not English. I’m not making a pro or anti anyone point. It’s just a fact.
If you go back far enough we could wipe out everything , for me in living memory many things have been invented , improved , etc in both England and Scotland and probably Wales and Ireland. We could probably say pyramids were invented here if we wanted to go back far enough and count burial mounds etc. I prefer to be positive rather than try to find negatives.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
Fresh herring cooked in oatmeal with new ayrshire tatties was a delicacy when I was younger.
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
Fresh herring cooked in oatmeal with new ayrshire tatties was a delicacy when I was younger.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
Fresh herring cooked in oatmeal with new ayrshire tatties was a delicacy when I was younger.
That sounds very healthy. In fact, I'm already beginning to feel hungry. I might pass the notoriously good Sea Shell fish shop in Marylebone for lunch today, if it's open.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
You won’t “own it”. Your enthusiastic reaction above to the suggestion Johnson will blame the French, together with your oft displayed prejudice against all continental Europeans (“...ze rules..”, “...frogs...”) clearly demonstrates that you won’t. Your assertions are all based on conjecture based on prejudice. When this goes mammary glands up you will revert to form and blame the EU and our neighbouring states - probably using the sort of demeaning language you normally do.
As for me, not even the most enthusiastic No Deal proponent at the moment suggests a No Deal outcome will be economically beneficial at least in the short term, the supposed benefits rely on an anachronistic definition of “sovereignty” that has never existed. So I can’t really lose. You will get the “benefit” you crave at the expense of much else more immediately tangible.
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
Fresh herring cooked in oatmeal with new ayrshire tatties was a delicacy when I was younger.
Still is with us ...
My mum, who was originally from Paisley, used to cook that for us when I was a child.
I think it was a cheap fish - and she could get it from the local fishmongers in Hull.
1. OGH says the only correct poll is the one you like the look of. Does it also influence you betting? On average polls show Dems only narrowly ahead 2 points at best with lots of independents saying don’t know.
2. Trump did well in the presidential election,
He got a lower vote share than Romney
And this is a Senate election. As people are wont of saying, Trump is not on the ballot.
Democrats might have the higher propensity voters....
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
Don't you even have a fish van or two that comes round weekly? What a shame. We do, fish from Eyemouth on the Berwickshire coast. The local Tescos has a fish counter but IIRC it is now closed.
Population density is way too low for fish vans, I guess.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
What would convince you? Honest question, I have not studied the history of bagpipes so have no idea where they were invented, but on what do you base your belief that they were invented in Scotland? You are responding very intensely about it so you cannot say it is unimportant to you. I mean, no one disputes they are associated with Scotland more than anywhere else. The Chinese claim to have invented golf, but that doesn't mean anything about which places it is associated with more.
Without going back to the end of time, if you asked anyone or looked anywhere you would see it is associated with Scotland and has been for a very very long time. I have never seen anything similar other than a few historical mentions that something similar may have been used in some form in A , B or C. Bagpipes as they are today are totally Scottish , fact that you can have some variations is neither her nor there. My beef is the fact that some sections of England can never bear to see anything positive about Scotland no matter what it is, we get fed it constantly in the state propaganda media unit and the London owned newspapers. Rant over I am going back to being a happy chappie again.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
They were on here the other day telling people that the ending of reciprocal healthcare was a Good Thing ™ because it was immoral to have other health systems paying.
So I will expect them to greet this news with joy...
In fact, a broad cross-section of people (Leavers & Remainers) spent several hours trying to explain to you that someone with serious health conditions should not be travelling without medical insurance.
A relevant question might be -- as there are non EU counties in EHIC (Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein or Switzerland) -- why exactly has the UK government decided to opt out?
I never said that someone with serious health issues should be insurance free. I said it was often used by healthy people as an excuse not to buy insurance. The posts are there if you want to go back and check.
And PB's resident GP tried to explain to you why the EHIC was sometimes the only cover some people could get....
Excuses not to get health insurance are not necessary.
If people are too sick to get insurance they maybe shouldn't be traveling?
So let's make it impossible for them to do so, rather than make their own decision. There's libertarianism for you, right there.
If people are so breathtakingly moronic they thought EHIC would cover them adequately for a skiing holiday, maybe they should have their passports confiscated. Happy with that?
How are we making it impossible for them? They can purchase insurance if they want to, there will be no ban on sales of insurance.
I don't think you understand what libertarianism is. You seem to think the state facilitating and providing for everything: insurance, NIMBYism on other people's land etc is libertarian rather than people choosing for themselves what they want to do.
It is about increasing people's options. You appear to take pleasure in limiting them. Limitations are still limitations whether they are legal or financial.
And dismissing planning constraints as "nimbyism" is cartoon thinking.
People having to pay for something that isn't free is not a limitation, it's a cost. If only we had a way for people to pay costs ...
Planning constraints like safety concerns, building standards etc are absolutely entirely valid. Every country has them and for good reason.
Restricting people's ability to build on their own land as you want to artificially constrain the supply of homes in order to make houses artificially more expensive than the market would otherwise be ... because who cares if other people can afford a home? Because you're alright Jack and you want your house price inflated and others to be forced to suffer because of artificially high house prices is despicable.
Funny how you're worried about the financial limitation of maybe a couple of hundred pounds at the most for a holiday but not the financial limitation of tens of thousands of pounds in house prices. There's only one word for that and that word is hypocrisy.
We are talking about substituting something which was free as of right, and is now discretionary and costs.
Every first world country has who can build what where type planning constraints. To pretend this is merely to keep property prices high is nonsense.
Your take on most questions come down to what you personally "are happy with." I deduce that you can afford holiday insurance, but not a house.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
1. OGH says the only correct poll is the one you like the look of. Does it also influence you betting? On average polls show Dems only narrowly ahead 2 points at best with lots of independents saying don’t know.
2. Trump did well in the presidential election,
He got a lower vote share than Romney
And this is a Senate election. As people are wont of saying, Trump is not on the ballot.
Democrats might have the higher propensity voters....
You’d also think that the Party has not endeared itself to those Republican voters, who ideologically support low taxes and small government, but who also believe in democracy.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
You’re a very angry man. I’m sorry that something causes you so much pain. If you ever need to talk DM me. Life doesn’t have to have this much hate. I’m not a unionist either so you don’t have to worry about that.
I am very happy thank you, be much happier once we are independent mind you. Meanwhile I just have to suffer fact that we are a colony and at the mercy of England's choices and the corrupt government it elects. That does annoy me at times.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
What would convince you? Honest question, I have not studied the history of bagpipes so have no idea where they were invented, but on what do you base your belief that they were invented in Scotland? You are responding very intensely about it so you cannot say it is unimportant to you. I mean, no one disputes they are associated with Scotland more than anywhere else. The Chinese claim to have invented golf, but that doesn't mean anything about which places it is associated with more.
Without going back to the end of time, if you asked anyone or looked anywhere you would see it is associated with Scotland and has been for a very very long time. I have never seen anything similar other than a few historical mentions that something similar may have been used in some form in A , B or C. Bagpipes as they are today are totally Scottish , fact that you can have some variations is neither her nor there. My beef is the fact that some sections of England can never bear to see anything positive about Scotland no matter what it is, we get fed it constantly in the state propaganda media unit and the London owned newspapers. Rant over I am going back to being a happy chappie again.
There was also a reference to an American cultural icon in my post. My family is American You do need to dial it in for your own health.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
I am old enough to remember when British cooking wasnt at all imaginative and when something as pedestrian as Spag Bol was dangerously Avant Garde
English cooking, please (not British). The Welsh cuisine is quite, quite distinct.
Although this talk of fish had become bound up in EU-theocracy, there is something yet to be explained about the decline of fish in our diet.
I live a few miles from the coast in N. Wales. All the towns & villages In Cardigan Bay once had fishing boats that provided abundant fish for the population.
Herrings were "the silver darlings". They were the loved staple dish of the poor.
Now, in these villages & towns, it is almost impossible to buy fish at all. There are hardly any fishmongers (I don't know of one within 60 miles). There are no fishing boats that catch the fish in Cardigan Bay, certainly northward of Aberystwyth. There are boats that take tourists to see the dolphins and there are boats to take tourists to the small islands in the Bay. There are even boats that take tourists out to fish.
But, there are no fishing boats.
Why did this happen? I don't really believe that there is no demand. I personally would like to buy more fish.
We seem (English speakers?) to have a phobia of fish. I know some people who won’t eat fish at all. In NZ, we are surrounded by astonishingly plentiful fishing stocks but fishmongers are few and very largely we leave more adventurous fish-eating to Asian immigrants.
Yet, go to Brittany or Northern Spain. Every village has its fish stall, or fish restaurants.
I once ordered (or rather it was ordered for me) a sea stew in Korea.
Whatever slunk, crept, cuttled, or jellied across the Korean sea waters was in that stew.
I was not able to eat more than a mouthful. But I would eat more fish, if I could.
Would you eat more herring?
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
Difference nowadays is we have a far greater selection than we had years ago.
They were on here the other day telling people that the ending of reciprocal healthcare was a Good Thing ™ because it was immoral to have other health systems paying.
So I will expect them to greet this news with joy...
In fact, a broad cross-section of people (Leavers & Remainers) spent several hours trying to explain to you that someone with serious health conditions should not be travelling without medical insurance.
A relevant question might be -- as there are non EU counties in EHIC (Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein or Switzerland) -- why exactly has the UK government decided to opt out?
I never said that someone with serious health issues should be insurance free. I said it was often used by healthy people as an excuse not to buy insurance. The posts are there if you want to go back and check.
And PB's resident GP tried to explain to you why the EHIC was sometimes the only cover some people could get....
Excuses not to get health insurance are not necessary.
If people are too sick to get insurance they maybe shouldn't be traveling?
So let's make it impossible for them to do so, rather than make their own decision. There's libertarianism for you, right there.
If people are so breathtakingly moronic they thought EHIC would cover them adequately for a skiing holiday, maybe they should have their passports confiscated. Happy with that?
How are we making it impossible for them? They can purchase insurance if they want to, there will be no ban on sales of insurance.
I don't think you understand what libertarianism is. You seem to think the state facilitating and providing for everything: insurance, NIMBYism on other people's land etc is libertarian rather than people choosing for themselves what they want to do.
It is about increasing people's options. You appear to take pleasure in limiting them. Limitations are still limitations whether they are legal or financial.
And dismissing planning constraints as "nimbyism" is cartoon thinking.
People having to pay for something that isn't free is not a limitation, it's a cost. If only we had a way for people to pay costs ...
Planning constraints like safety concerns, building standards etc are absolutely entirely valid. Every country has them and for good reason.
Restricting people's ability to build on their own land as you want to artificially constrain the supply of homes in order to make houses artificially more expensive than the market would otherwise be ... because who cares if other people can afford a home? Because you're alright Jack and you want your house price inflated and others to be forced to suffer because of artificially high house prices is despicable.
Funny how you're worried about the financial limitation of maybe a couple of hundred pounds at the most for a holiday but not the financial limitation of tens of thousands of pounds in house prices. There's only one word for that and that word is hypocrisy.
We are talking about substituting something which was free as of right, and is now discretionary and costs.
Every first world country has who can build what where type planning constraints. To pretend this is merely to keep property prices high is nonsense.
Your take on most questions come down to what you personally "are happy with." I deduce that you can afford holiday insurance, but not a house.
Who can build where is not NIMBYism. Many countries deal with that by zoning systems, but then anyone can build whatever they want in an approved zone within the law without needing the consent of NIMBYs who want to keep their house price high.
Keeping house prices high should never be a consideration for planning. It is anticompetitive. It is like saying you can't build an Aldi because it might hurt the profits of the nearby Tesco.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
You’re a very angry man. I’m sorry that something causes you so much pain. If you ever need to talk DM me. Life doesn’t have to have this much hate. I’m not a unionist either so you don’t have to worry about that.
I am very happy thank you, be much happier once we are independent mind you. Meanwhile I just have to suffer fact that we are a colony and at the mercy of England's choices and the corrupt government it elects. That does annoy me at times.
You’re losing your shit over a wind instrument. That’s not healthy.
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
I like herring. It is possible to buy some fresh fish in North Wales (trout, sewin), but it is extremely difficult to buy fresh herring.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
Fresh herring cooked in oatmeal with new ayrshire tatties was a delicacy when I was younger.
Still is with us ...
Not many decent fishmongers about nowadays Carnyx. I am not impressed with most of supermarkets fare, M&S have a few decent selections but not great. Nearest really good one for me with a big choice is Ayr , so nearly 20 miles each way .
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
Of course. But i think even that now would probably be portrayed as a concession too far. Too many people are emotionally invested in pursuing no-deal.
They were on here the other day telling people that the ending of reciprocal healthcare was a Good Thing ™ because it was immoral to have other health systems paying.
So I will expect them to greet this news with joy...
They can all holiday at home.
Just as well we will have a thriving hospitality sector well supported by the government.
Oh .......😟
Do you really want Dougie and Janette from Manchester being rerouted from hols in Greece and into Cumbria? They will only complain about the calamari. Still, I suppose as long as you churn up egg and chips?
I believe there are senior Civil Servants who think that - last time round that was pretty much the view of members of the cabinet like Amber Rudd - but I don't believe that's actually the plan. They are just being kept in the dark.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
What would convince you? Honest question, I have not studied the history of bagpipes so have no idea where they were invented, but on what do you base your belief that they were invented in Scotland? You are responding very intensely about it so you cannot say it is unimportant to you. I mean, no one disputes they are associated with Scotland more than anywhere else. The Chinese claim to have invented golf, but that doesn't mean anything about which places it is associated with more.
Without going back to the end of time, if you asked anyone or looked anywhere you would see it is associated with Scotland and has been for a very very long time. I have never seen anything similar other than a few historical mentions that something similar may have been used in some form in A , B or C. Bagpipes as they are today are totally Scottish , fact that you can have some variations is neither her nor there. My beef is the fact that some sections of England can never bear to see anything positive about Scotland no matter what it is, we get fed it constantly in the state propaganda media unit and the London owned newspapers. Rant over I am going back to being a happy chappie again.
There was also a reference to an American cultural icon in my post. My family is American You do need to dial it in for your own health.
You a Doctor in your spare time Doug when not banging up criminals. I am perfectly healthy thank you.
For those who have access Tim Shipman is excellent this morning.
Basically a deal was there (and a compromise on fishing along the lines I'd suggested, even up to 50%) but then France went in at the 11th hour and shat the bed:
Tim Shipman's useful role is in conveying, unmodified by any interpretation, whatever message this government wants to get out but doesn't want to be seen to be saying it.
"Blame the French" is the oldest tool in the UK government's diplomatic toolbox and is trotted out every time the UK does some kind of international muckup. Tony Blair blamed the French for example for his decision to ignore the UN and commit to an illegal invasion of Iraq.
David Frost is an abysmally bad negotiator. You almost suspect his real role is to pretend to negotiate while feeding the political rhetoric to the true believers.
The truth however is more likely to be the normal thing. Frost got the gig because he told Johnson what he liked to hear and we are moving to No Deal because the usual incompetents have totally fucked up the negotiations.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
I just want you to explain in what sense you're "owning" this situation.
If someone can't get their medication because of Brexit, are _you_ going to suffer the ill effects?
If someone who can only just cope now can't afford to buy food because of Brexit, are _you_ going to go hungry?
If the worst happens, are _you_ going to die?
I don't get the impression you think you'll really suffer any hardship whatsoever. All you think is going to happen is that your "job opportunities" are going to be "affected".
You're just continually belching hot air, in the confident belief that the consequences are going to be for other people only.
I buy that it is something they will attempt in the blame game. It's probably a push to say that it (no-deal) was/is the "aim". Although is now almost certainly the expectation/route of least resistance.
How they think they will get actually be able to argue convincingly that they were misled on the potential consequences though! When they've been all over the media dismissing warnings from all sources at every opportunity for years.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
Looks like Nottingham christmas market has cut through the brexit divide... Both my MP Brendan Clarke Smith and Anna Soubry scathing about it going on. Bassetlaw agreeing with BCS according to facebook's comments.
The Header touches on an important issue - the difference between protecting free speech and fetishizing it. I think the latter is dangerous and not remotely noble. For example, despite disapproving of Toby Young's views on the pandemic would I defend to the death his right to air them? No, I don't believe I would.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
The Kent Lorry Park problem will be partially resolved, only when UK businesses stop trading to the extent they do now, with consequences for jobs and wealth. It is a strange strategy to adopt, but it is the necessary partial solution to this particular problem.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
What would convince you? Honest question, I have not studied the history of bagpipes so have no idea where they were invented, but on what do you base your belief that they were invented in Scotland? You are responding very intensely about it so you cannot say it is unimportant to you. I mean, no one disputes they are associated with Scotland more than anywhere else. The Chinese claim to have invented golf, but that doesn't mean anything about which places it is associated with more.
Without going back to the end of time, if you asked anyone or looked anywhere you would see it is associated with Scotland and has been for a very very long time. I have never seen anything similar other than a few historical mentions that something similar may have been used in some form in A , B or C. Bagpipes as they are today are totally Scottish , fact that you can have some variations is neither her nor there. My beef is the fact that some sections of England can never bear to see anything positive about Scotland no matter what it is, we get fed it constantly in the state propaganda media unit and the London owned newspapers. Rant over I am going back to being a happy chappie again.
There was also a reference to an American cultural icon in my post. My family is American You do need to dial it in for your own health.
You a Doctor in your spare time Doug when not banging up criminals. I am perfectly healthy thank you.
No but I did do a mental health first aid course (mostly for my own benefit) which alerted me to some signs. Anyway, glad to hear you’re fine.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
“The Bagpipe is one of the most ancient instruments in the world, its history spans back to the beginnings of civilization. Contrary to some people’s belief, the Bagpipes were not first heard in Scotland. No one knows for certain where the history of the Bagpipe began. It is thought that the first Pipe came from ancient Egypt, which had just a single drone and a chanter.”
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
WOW , you have really convinced me, away and put your union jack pants back on.
You’re a very angry man. I’m sorry that something causes you so much pain. If you ever need to talk DM me. Life doesn’t have to have this much hate. I’m not a unionist either so you don’t have to worry about that.
I am very happy thank you, be much happier once we are independent mind you. Meanwhile I just have to suffer fact that we are a colony and at the mercy of England's choices and the corrupt government it elects. That does annoy me at times.
You’re losing your shit over a wind instrument. That’s not healthy.
Doug, I am not sure you live in the real world, where do you see me "losing my shit". You seem to be a bit unhinged and drama queenesque about things. Merely expressed my opinion that bagpipes were Scottish , hardly seems to be "losing my shit" to me sunshine. I think you may have led a very sheltered life.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
The 28 hour journey will be quicker than the upcoming 2 day delay at British ports. Perhaps Stena will reroute from Holyhead to Caen or Brest?
2 days is conservative. There are regular 20 hour plus delays at border crossings where the throughput of vehicles is far lower and isn't complicated by a sea crossing.
Don't worry though. Vehicles won't be sent as their operators and drivers cannot afford to be stuck for that length of time. So import / export will largely stop.
Well that's what the cabinet office, hauliers, exporters, manufacturers, suppliers, ports are all warning with detailed evidence to validate their warnings. All are wrong says Philip because what he knows.
We sure Philip isn't an anarchist?
It's been five years of talking now. I'd prefer a deal where the EU gives us what we want, like any other independent country, but if that's not available we will just have to make World Trade terms work as well as we can.
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
Negotiation is about give and take not getting everything you ask for. No other country has got everything it wanted from the EU. We are not exceptional. There is no cake and eat it option.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
I'm prepared to "own it". Let's get on with it and see. It's time to open the box and see if the Brexit No Deal cat is alive or dead.
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
Are you prepared to "own it" in any other sense than an unidentified troll on the Internet, though? If so, how?
I'm not a troll, I'm just a person who enjoys discussing politics same as everyone else here.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
In other words, all this crap about "owning it" amounts to nothing more than that you're going to suffer the same consequences as the rest of us?
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
Yes it is called democracy. Is that concept so alien to you?
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
All of us Brits can enjoy the fact we have a government that has, as a matter of policy, decided we should enjoy less freedom and be second class citizens in our own country. I imagine it's what you voted for, Phil, but I am not sure it's what others did.
We have more freedom in some ways than we did, less than we did in other ways. That's politics. But we have more freedom in the most important way in a democracy - we can directly elect those who make our laws going forwards. We are taking back control of those who voted for our laws and that is the catchphrase that won 52% of the vote at the referendum in case you have forgotten. Win a future election and you can change the policies in the future.
According to WP: The dish originated in England and is an example of culinary fusion, combining Iberian Jewish fried fish with Belgian fried potatoes. Fish and chips is a common take-away food in the United Kingdom and numerous other countries, particularly in English-speaking and Commonwealth nations. Fish and chips first appeared in the UK in the 1860s, and by 1910, there were over 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK. By the 1930s there were over 35,000 shops, but the trend reversed and by 2009 there were only approximately 10,000.[
Yes, as I remember first fish chip and chop was supposed to have been in the east end by someone called Joseph Mallin, for "fish cooked in the jewish style", or something like that. That Mallin and others mixed in the French/Belgian chips too was supposedly what made it unique to Britain.
Really? Culinary fusion ?
I mean fried fish must be medieval in origin and common to many cuisines. Chips require not very much culinary imagination, once potatoes have been introduced from the New World.
Are you really saying the English are so bereft of imagination that they could not come up with the idea of fish and chips without extensive help from Iberian Jews and the Belgians?
I have said some harsh things about the English in my time, but nothing has bad as that
It’s hardly a big deal. Very few examples of human endeavour spring fully formed from the brain of some genius, culinary or otherwise, most rely on inspiration from elsewhere. Austen mentions Baseball in Northanger Abbey but it’s still a quintessentially American sport. Bagpipes originated in the Middle East - there’s a Hittite carving of someone playing them dated 1000BC but the Scots have claimed them now, and there’s no shame in that.
Only in English fevered imaginations were bagpipes not invented in Scotland
Who cares?
I think Malc meant 'perfected' in Scotland!
I think the sound of massed pipes can fairly be said to have been invented in/by Scotland. I was also going to add the word skirl but I find it's likely of old Norse origin.
But the instrument? It wouldn't deprive Scotland of its association with them if it was the case that the instrument itself originally came from elsewhere, so I don't know what the fuss is about if they weren't.
Sure, I'm definitely not making a fuss about it!
I think it's the rage and anger at being so comprehensively fooled by Wattie Scott - only known person to get a German king to wear pink tights and a skirt in public.
It seems he took very little persuading. I was going to say that it was a masterpiece of marketing to persuade the douce Edinburgers that a fat, red faced old bloke in tights was the very flower of amalgamated kingship and clan chief, but looking around at our current pickle, there's one born every minute of every hour of every day of every year.
I suspect that one of the real reasons for the likely utter failure of the UK-EU talks (and probably the conclusions that the EU will draw in the post-mortem) is that the EU fundamentally made from the start is that they thought they were engaging in a conventional trade negotiation where both sides would prioritise the most important things to them for trade purposes.
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
You may be right.
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
Surely the answer with fish is:
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters * We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years * Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
I think something like that had been suggested by the UK negotiating team and it was part of the breakthrough earlier this week. It fell apart because France doesn't want to pay for fishing rights in UK waters and wanted to keep everything wrt fishing exactly as it is now for at least 10 years.
As with medicines and financial regulation the UK has offered reasonable proposals, the fault has been on the EU side getting high on their own supply.
Even on LPF the UK has offered almost identical terms to what the EU and Canada and the EU and Japan have already agreed with additional measures on backsliding which would bind both sides, it was rejected because the EU wants 100% alignment forever to basically all EU regulations and to impose tariffs on product groups despite the alignment. It's a ridiculous position for them to hold and will result in no deal if they don't realise just how ridiculous it is.
Unfortunately I think we're heading for no deal and I think it will be no deal for a very large number of years because relations after it will go into a very long deep freeze as neither side will budge from their current position. No deal will poison UK/EU relations for at least a decade IMO.
re: the thread header. I would say that too much time is given to lockdown "phobes", and opposed to lockdown sceptics. The latter have genuine questions about the extent of the restrictions, the effectiveness of various measures, the extent to which restrictions are actually linked to realistic risk assessments of various activities, and the transparency and quality of the data used to make decisions. All with an underlying presumption that we should try and limit restrictions on economic activity as much as possible.
But they don't deny the prevalence of the virus or its potential seriousness. And don't generally confuse stupid arguments about masks with things which really matter.
More proper analysis of science and less promotion of conspiracy should be seen as a good thing.
1. OGH says the only correct poll is the one you like the look of. Does it also influence you betting? On average polls show Dems only narrowly ahead 2 points at best with lots of independents saying don’t know.
2. Trump did well in the presidential election,
He got a lower vote share than Romney
And this is a Senate election. As people are wont of saying, Trump is not on the ballot.
By January 4th when the runoff is Biden will have been formally elected the next President when the Electoral College meets on December 14th and the House will also still be in Democratic hands, the Democrats having won enough seats to maintain the chamber.
So the runoff will be the only chance to stop a Democratic clean sweep of the Federal government which will drive GOP turnout and do not forget on election day in Georgia GOP incumbent Senator Perdue got 49.7% of the vote to Osoff's 47.9%, so Perdue was only 0.4% off winning outright without the need for a runoff anyway.
Purdue therefore slightly outperformed Trump and Osoff significantly underperformed Biden's voteshare in Georgia
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
It’s surprising this one hasn’t come up a lot more, in recent days and weeks - although I’m sure the Irish are making the point firmly in the internal EU discussions. Ireland will suffer from no-deal more than any other country, almost all their exports go either to or through the U.K.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
I cant believe we're talking about a no deal at this point..but has anyone considered the impact this has on Ireland? Let alone the impact on the UK - but Ireland becomes a market at the fringe of the EU, having to use land through the UK for export (albeit it can use the new ferry route - which doubles the journey time and lacks capacity)
They will soon build up the capacity and the new jobs that go with it.
The issue is not capacity it’s a 28 hour journey time as opposed to a 13 hour one. The former is too long for many agricultural products and in winter the crossing is even longer. Even capacity takes time.
It’s surprising this one hasn’t come up a lot more, in recent days and weeks - although I’m sure the Irish are making the point firmly in the internal EU discussions. Ireland will suffer from no-deal more than any other country, almost all their exports go either to or through the U.K.
Maybe they should have spent less time poisoning the well in phase one of the negotiations and more time trying to agree mutually respectful principles for future trade.
Comments
Whatever slunk, crept, cuttled, or jellied across the Korean sea waters was in that stew.
I was not able to eat more than a mouthful. But I would eat more fish, if I could.
Even if they had said it no politician can bind a future government , it is very clear it was never said in any event. Show me where on the Edinburgh agreement that is stated.
At least it's clear exactly which side of British nationalism you're coming from.
https://twitter.com/iainoverton/status/1335535008057012225?s=21
- taken from the website of Scotia Pipers, who can be contacted for bookings in Scotland on a Kirkcaldy area code at your leisure http://www.scotiapipers.co.uk/bagpipe-history/ but they are all English to a man I am sure.
https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1335543746805387264?s=20
Like you said, herring seems to have been the main fish stock for Wales.
I admire what the Scandinavians do with it.
This is wild speculation on my part btw: I'd be amazed if it turned out to be the actual reason...
But I get the distinct impression some of you would be more disappointed by me being right and the UK coping just fine out of the Single Market, albeit with some disruption at first, than with you being right and it being an unmitigated disaster.
I feel like fish - with certain exceptions - was deemed working class. Whelks, bloaters, prawns, mussels, eel, even haddock.
As soon as folks got more money, they graduated to beef and chicken.
See also, offal.
And this is a Senate election. As people are wont of saying, Trump is not on the ballot.
I was also going to add the word skirl but I find that it's likely of old Norse origin.
Pre-pandemic, BA used to get at least 800 hours from a pilot, Virgin were known as easy on pilots, running them closer to 600. Ryanair would be upset if they only got 899 out of you! Emirates used to average something totally mad like 18 hours a day for each airframe, they really didn’t like places such Heathrow where there is a seven-hour night curfew. The old BA 747s used to average well over 100,000 hours over their lifetime.
And dismissing planning constraints as "nimbyism" is cartoon thinking.
https://www.scotsman.com/whats-on/arts-and-entertainment/clyde-sinking-hms-dasher-continues-puzzle-historians-1457120
But it is an old Scots (not Gaelic) word (if ultimately Scandinavian).
Planning constraints like safety concerns, building standards etc are absolutely entirely valid. Every country has them and for good reason.
Restricting people's ability to build on their own land as you want to artificially constrain the supply of homes in order to make houses artificially more expensive than the market would otherwise be ... because who cares if other people can afford a home? Because you're alright Jack and you want your house price inflated and others to be forced to suffer because of artificially high house prices is despicable.
Funny how you're worried about the financial limitation of maybe a couple of hundred pounds at the most for a holiday but not the financial limitation of tens of thousands of pounds in house prices. There's only one word for that and that word is hypocrisy.
I am pretty sure the last time I ate freshly grilled herring was a decade ago in a specialized fish restaurant.
Just checking the Welsh supermarket websites seems to indicate that the only herring product available is a 2 kg bag of Go-Cat Tuna, Herring and Vegetable Pellets.
Because all the evidence from independent sources suggests we are right and you are wrong. Only when that is proved can this country start healing from the sickness your kind has led it to. People will die because of No Deal. Own it.
https://twitter.com/JennieGow/status/1335317206939394051
So the runoff will be the only chance to stop a Democratic clean sweep of the Federal government which will drive GOP turnout and do not forget on election day in Georgia GOP incumbent Senator Perdue got 49.7% of the vote to Osoff's 47.9%, so Perdue was only 0.4% off winning outright without the need for a runoff anyway.
Purdue therefore slightly outperformed Trump and Osoff significantly underperformed Biden's voteshare in Georgia
Are you prepared to "own it" if I'm right? Are you prepared for the country to have the opportunity to find out if I and others like me are right?
They probably just didn't realise that the whole thing might get blown up over bl**dy fish, which is an absolutely minute part of the UK economy. If they had actually realised how important this was, it would have probably been sorted out months ago (and as somebody suggested, with the French fisherman being bought off). Instead it was allowed to fester unaddressed, with the EU probably thinking that it was just being left there as a suitable 'concession' that could be offered up at a future date (because it was of little fundamental economic importance to a deal).
But now it sits there, front and centre of the hold up, neither side can give way on it. It's too late to make a concession on it, and so the whole thing is stuffed. At hugely damaging economic cost to the potential economic effect of either side giving way.
I prefer to be positive rather than try to find negatives.
I'm young, I'm sure my job opportunities for forthcoming decades will be affected if I'm wrong. We will see.
Apparently when they'd said there was no such thing as objective truth* they hadn't meant there was no such thing as objective truth.....
*Yes, some post modernists aren't saying that scientific truth is not "truth" - these guys had said that, IIRC
We're all "owning it" in that sense ...
If only the EU had some idea that perhaps the UK might be as concerned by sovereignty issues as it is trade ones. If only something could have happened in recent years, or decades, to suggest that sovereignty might be a concern in this nation. Or that we might philosophically approach this differently to them.
As for me, not even the most enthusiastic No Deal proponent at the moment suggests a No Deal outcome will be economically beneficial at least in the short term, the supposed benefits rely on an anachronistic definition of “sovereignty” that has never existed. So I can’t really lose. You will get the “benefit” you crave at the expense of much else more immediately tangible.
I think it was a cheap fish - and she could get it from the local fishmongers in Hull.
https://twitter.com/justincbzz/status/1334893903607197697
Bagpipes as they are today are totally Scottish , fact that you can have some variations is neither her nor there.
My beef is the fact that some sections of England can never bear to see anything positive about Scotland no matter what it is, we get fed it constantly in the state propaganda media unit and the London owned newspapers.
Rant over I am going back to being a happy chappie again.
When we integrated into the EU for decades against the wishes of many in this nation, when the Lisbon Treaty was passed without a referendum against the wishes of most of the country and in violation of the then governments manifesto commitment not to ratify without one ... We all collectively owned it then too.
When my side next loses a vote then we will collectively have to accept that too. But we won this one so suck it up, buttercup.
Every first world country has who can build what where type planning constraints. To pretend this is merely to keep property prices high is nonsense.
Your take on most questions come down to what you personally "are happy with." I deduce that you can afford holiday insurance, but not a house.
* The EU agrees we have sovereign rights over our waters
* We pre-agree to sell quota rights to the EU for a number of years
* Something is included in the deal that can be treated as consideration for the sale
That way, we get our sovereignty and the EU gets its fish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W780LSQHbYY
Looking forward to today's race rather a lot.
Keeping house prices high should never be a consideration for planning. It is anticompetitive. It is like saying you can't build an Aldi because it might hurt the profits of the nearby Tesco.
But I don’t buy Shipman’s either.
https://twitter.com/guy_stallard/status/1335534811386097664?s=21
Nearest really good one for me with a big choice is Ayr , so nearly 20 miles each way .
The truth however is more likely to be the normal thing. Frost got the gig because he told Johnson what he liked to hear and we are moving to No Deal because the usual incompetents have totally fucked up the negotiations.
If someone can't get their medication because of Brexit, are _you_ going to suffer the ill effects?
If someone who can only just cope now can't afford to buy food because of Brexit, are _you_ going to go hungry?
If the worst happens, are _you_ going to die?
I don't get the impression you think you'll really suffer any hardship whatsoever. All you think is going to happen is that your "job opportunities" are going to be "affected".
You're just continually belching hot air, in the confident belief that the consequences are going to be for other people only.
How they think they will get actually be able to argue convincingly that they were misled on the potential consequences though! When they've been all over the media dismissing warnings from all sources at every opportunity for years.
Both my MP Brendan Clarke Smith and Anna Soubry scathing about it going on.
Bassetlaw agreeing with BCS according to facebook's comments.
Merely expressed my opinion that bagpipes were Scottish , hardly seems to be "losing my shit" to me sunshine. I think you may have led a very sheltered life.
I was going to say that it was a masterpiece of marketing to persuade the douce Edinburgers that a fat, red faced old bloke in tights was the very flower of amalgamated kingship and clan chief, but looking around at our current pickle, there's one born every minute of every hour of every day of every year.
As with medicines and financial regulation the UK has offered reasonable proposals, the fault has been on the EU side getting high on their own supply.
Even on LPF the UK has offered almost identical terms to what the EU and Canada and the EU and Japan have already agreed with additional measures on backsliding which would bind both sides, it was rejected because the EU wants 100% alignment forever to basically all EU regulations and to impose tariffs on product groups despite the alignment. It's a ridiculous position for them to hold and will result in no deal if they don't realise just how ridiculous it is.
Unfortunately I think we're heading for no deal and I think it will be no deal for a very large number of years because relations after it will go into a very long deep freeze as neither side will budge from their current position. No deal will poison UK/EU relations for at least a decade IMO.
But they don't deny the prevalence of the virus or its potential seriousness. And don't generally confuse stupid arguments about masks with things which really matter.
More proper analysis of science and less promotion of conspiracy should be seen as a good thing.
This is nerdy but good, the sandals are a stroke of genius.
https://youtu.be/cnVjkE87FDY
😟