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No Platform For Mad Men. Lockdown Sceptics Are Getting Far Too Much Airtime – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,127
edited December 2020 in General
No Platform For Mad Men. Lockdown Sceptics Are Getting Far Too Much Airtime – politicalbetting.com

A certain professor's been on TV this evening saying it'll all be over by September. Cool. Super credible. pic.twitter.com/XWrf0cgxbk

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Good morning
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Trump's Georgia rally is near-disastrous for the GOP run-offs. Instead of focusing on the two Republican candidates he has launched a vitriolic attack on Governor Brian Kemp, pressuring him to call a special session and convince state legislators to select their own electors that would support him, according to a Washington Post source. He also asked the Republican governor to order an audit of absentee ballot signatures

    Then, at the rally, he went on another of his narcissistic tantrum rants.

    I'm beginning to dare to hope that the Democrats might just win both run-offs. Early voting begins a week tomorrow.
  • Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,920

    Trump's Georgia rally is near-disastrous for the GOP run-offs. Instead of focusing on the two Republican candidates he has launched a vitriolic attack on Governor Brian Kemp, pressuring him to call a special session and convince state legislators to select their own electors that would support him, according to a Washington Post source. He also asked the Republican governor to order an audit of absentee ballot signatures

    Then, at the rally, he went on another of his narcissistic tantrum rants.

    I'm beginning to dare to hope that the Democrats might just win both run-offs. Early voting begins a week tomorrow.

    Trump is quite mad. And his madness is incredibly corrosive to democracy in America.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    rcs1000 said:

    Trump's Georgia rally is near-disastrous for the GOP run-offs. Instead of focusing on the two Republican candidates he has launched a vitriolic attack on Governor Brian Kemp, pressuring him to call a special session and convince state legislators to select their own electors that would support him, according to a Washington Post source. He also asked the Republican governor to order an audit of absentee ballot signatures

    Then, at the rally, he went on another of his narcissistic tantrum rants.

    I'm beginning to dare to hope that the Democrats might just win both run-offs. Early voting begins a week tomorrow.

    Trump is quite mad. And his madness is incredibly corrosive to democracy in America.
    So does everyone ignore him after 20th Jan, and pretend he never happened, or do they keep him in the news every day for he next four years? I’m betting on the latter.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Trump's Georgia rally is near-disastrous for the GOP run-offs. Instead of focusing on the two Republican candidates he has launched a vitriolic attack on Governor Brian Kemp, pressuring him to call a special session and convince state legislators to select their own electors that would support him, according to a Washington Post source. He also asked the Republican governor to order an audit of absentee ballot signatures

    Then, at the rally, he went on another of his narcissistic tantrum rants.

    I'm beginning to dare to hope that the Democrats might just win both run-offs. Early voting begins a week tomorrow.

    Trump is quite mad. And his madness is incredibly corrosive to democracy in America.
    So does everyone ignore him after 20th Jan, and pretend he never happened, or do they keep him in the news every day for he next four years? I’m betting on the latter.
    Definitely the latter. Criminal trials are always newsworthy.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited December 2020
    Sort-of on topic, it's worth recalling that Private Eye for years promoted the MMR hoax of disgraced AntiVaxxer Andrew Wakefield. Their conspiracy laden drivel helped pedal his nonsense for a lot longer than might have been the case.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2010/feb/05/private-eye-magazines

    Meanwhile Wakefield, who is another loony narcissist, is making hay while the sun still shines in the US. He's gained traction with just the sort of Trumpites who lap up this stuff. Oh and Elle Macpherson, obvs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    the whole question of media regulation needs to be looked at again, with the aim of establishing a structure that promotes useful information and penalises misinformation. We’re not there yet, that’s for sure.

    That’s likely to be a hard problem.
    For a start, who gets to define information/misinformation ? And to what media would such rules apply; what might be the sanctions etc ?

    And with such a structure in place, how do you prevent government from using it to abridge free speech ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    As an example, the test, track and trace program we’ve had, though well intentioned, has been enormously expensive and ineffective.

    That’s obvious now - would you have been able to say so back in the summer under Alastair’s proposed regime ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    rcs1000 said:

    Trump's Georgia rally is near-disastrous for the GOP run-offs. Instead of focusing on the two Republican candidates he has launched a vitriolic attack on Governor Brian Kemp, pressuring him to call a special session and convince state legislators to select their own electors that would support him, according to a Washington Post source. He also asked the Republican governor to order an audit of absentee ballot signatures

    Then, at the rally, he went on another of his narcissistic tantrum rants.

    I'm beginning to dare to hope that the Democrats might just win both run-offs. Early voting begins a week tomorrow.

    Trump is quite mad. And his madness is incredibly corrosive to democracy in America.
    I still can’t decide whether he’s likely to just fade away, or if the US descends into serious civil unrest. The former seems far more likely, but not inevitable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Nigelb said:

    the whole question of media regulation needs to be looked at again, with the aim of establishing a structure that promotes useful information and penalises misinformation. We’re not there yet, that’s for sure.

    That’s likely to be a hard problem.
    For a start, who gets to define information/misinformation ? And to what media would such rules apply; what might be the sanctions etc ?

    And with such a structure in place, how do you prevent government from using it to abridge free speech ?

    And will these rules apply to politicians ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited December 2020

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    Interesting. They've got a battle on. Anti-roads people dressing up in Lincoln Green costumes.

    The assessment doesn't seem to take into account either savings from reductions of congestion elsewhere, or the increase in ZEV - traffic emissions count for more than half of it and we will be overwhelmingly ZEV for perhaps 45-50 years of the 60 year calculated period.

    One of a smallish number of BBC stories where I have seen a link direct to What Do They Know.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    edited December 2020
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Trump's Georgia rally is near-disastrous for the GOP run-offs. Instead of focusing on the two Republican candidates he has launched a vitriolic attack on Governor Brian Kemp, pressuring him to call a special session and convince state legislators to select their own electors that would support him, according to a Washington Post source. He also asked the Republican governor to order an audit of absentee ballot signatures

    Then, at the rally, he went on another of his narcissistic tantrum rants.

    I'm beginning to dare to hope that the Democrats might just win both run-offs. Early voting begins a week tomorrow.

    Trump is quite mad. And his madness is incredibly corrosive to democracy in America.
    I still can’t decide whether he’s likely to just fade away, or if the US descends into serious civil unrest. The former seems far more likely, but not inevitable.
    I agree the former (in respect of political sway, anyhow). Americans will be surprisingly quick to drop him once he’s lost, and move on to the new fresh thing (worrying about what that might be is more pertinent). Indeed Trump’s antics can be seen as his knowing he’ll be dropped once he is seen as a loser, and his trying to keep the dream alive as long as he possibly can.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    So the Cabinet are four square behind no deal (if Johnson judges it has to happen) because “the economic effect of COVID is really bad anyway”. As if somehow negative economic effects can’t compound each other. And as if it won’t hit really hard the sort of industries that are to a large extent shielded from (even in some cases benefitting from) COVID.

    What a disastrous state this country is in, when virtually no decision is taken in the national interest, only a narrow (often completely ignorant) partisan calculation. And where all that matters is not the actual real world outcomes but “who can be given the blame”. (And you would have thought they might have learnt their lesson about blaming everything on “the intransigent French” after the Iraq war...)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    IanB2 said:

    I agree the former (in respect of political sway, anyhow). Americans will be surprisingly quick to drop him once he’s lost, and move on to the new fresh thing (worrying about what that might be is more pertinent). Indeed Trump’s antics can be seen as his knowing he’ll be dropped once he is seen as a loser, and his trying to keep the dream alive as long as he possibly can.

    The problem for the GOP is if they win the runoffs, Trump will claim the credit
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    MattW said:

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    Interesting. They've got a battle on. Anti-roads people dressing up in Lincoln Green costumes.

    The assessment doesn't seem to take into account either savings from reductions of congestion elsewhere, or the increase in ZEV - traffic emissions count for more than half of it and we will be overwhelmingly ZEV for perhaps 45-50 years of the 60 year calculated period.

    One of a smallish number of BBC stories where I have seen a link direct to What Do They Know.
    Of course, ZEV are only zero emissions if they are charged using renewable sources of power.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    When all cars are electric surely it will be emitting close to zero tonnes of CO2.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,920
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    Interesting. They've got a battle on. Anti-roads people dressing up in Lincoln Green costumes.

    The assessment doesn't seem to take into account either savings from reductions of congestion elsewhere, or the increase in ZEV - traffic emissions count for more than half of it and we will be overwhelmingly ZEV for perhaps 45-50 years of the 60 year calculated period.

    One of a smallish number of BBC stories where I have seen a link direct to What Do They Know.
    Of course, ZEV are only zero emissions if they are charged using renewable sources of power.
    That's not true.

    Nuclear is not renewable, and is Zero Emission.

    There are also times when it's more efficient for the grid to generate power than not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    Interesting. They've got a battle on. Anti-roads people dressing up in Lincoln Green costumes.

    The assessment doesn't seem to take into account either savings from reductions of congestion elsewhere, or the increase in ZEV - traffic emissions count for more than half of it and we will be overwhelmingly ZEV for perhaps 45-50 years of the 60 year calculated period.

    One of a smallish number of BBC stories where I have seen a link direct to What Do They Know.
    Of course, ZEV are only zero emissions if they are charged using renewable sources of power.
    That's not true.

    Nuclear is not renewable, and is Zero Emission.

    There are also times when it's more efficient for the grid to generate power than not.
    Can I do a HYUFD and count radiation as an emission?
  • Good morning, everyone.

    F1: race looks intriguing all through the points position. May make tipping tricky. Time to find out...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    RobD said:

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    When all cars are electric surely it will be emitting close to zero tonnes of CO2.
    Given that Dover won't be as busy after Brexit, why do we need a Lower Thames Crossing. Whenever I use it, the weight of traffic seems to be either going West, eventually or coming from the West.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823
    edited December 2020

    RobD said:

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    When all cars are electric surely it will be emitting close to zero tonnes of CO2.
    Given that Dover won't be as busy after Brexit, why do we need a Lower Thames Crossing. Whenever I use it, the weight of traffic seems to be either going West, eventually or coming from the West.
    If you build the road there will be traffic. Just look at major cities in the US.

    And are these projections for the use of Dover? I thought the waiting period might be longer, but a significant reduction in traffic?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,920
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    Interesting. They've got a battle on. Anti-roads people dressing up in Lincoln Green costumes.

    The assessment doesn't seem to take into account either savings from reductions of congestion elsewhere, or the increase in ZEV - traffic emissions count for more than half of it and we will be overwhelmingly ZEV for perhaps 45-50 years of the 60 year calculated period.

    One of a smallish number of BBC stories where I have seen a link direct to What Do They Know.
    Of course, ZEV are only zero emissions if they are charged using renewable sources of power.
    That's not true.

    Nuclear is not renewable, and is Zero Emission.

    There are also times when it's more efficient for the grid to generate power than not.
    Can I do a HYUFD and count radiation as an emission?
    Sure you can...

    But only if you want me to point out that (over sufficiently long timespans) coal, gas and oil are renewable too.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,463
    very surprised that the media portrays BJ as trying to unblock the BREXIT talks logjam....his track record on sealing a watertight deal with Europe can hardly be held up as credible. It'll be interesting to see how the blame game pans out....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Scott_xP said:
    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    rcs1000 said:

    Nuclear is not renewable, and is Zero Emission.

    No it isn't.

    Uranium mining is CO2 intensive, as is construction.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
  • When you have a government whose core project is the result of misinformation and badmouthing experts I wouldn't hold your breath for this situation to improve. Personally I think there is a case for wartime style censorship in a situation as serious as a pandemic. Careless talk costs lives. Although perhaps that would be counterproductive these days, it might simply fuel the conspiracy theories.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    very surprised that the media portrays BJ as trying to unblock the BREXIT talks logjam....his track record on sealing a watertight deal with Europe can hardly be held up as credible. It'll be interesting to see how the blame game pans out....

    It’s all over. The Govt weren’t sure if they could get away with “blaming the EU”. But now they can specifically blame the French they won’t give it a second thought.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,920
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nuclear is not renewable, and is Zero Emission.

    No it isn't.

    Uranium mining is CO2 intensive, as is construction.
    In which case everything is CO2 intensive.

    Concrete for wind turbines? Steel? Purifying silicon?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    If you remember, this time last last our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    right


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    rcs1000 said:

    In which case everything is CO2 intensive.

    Concrete for wind turbines? Steel? Purifying silicon?

    Which is why renewable and Zero emission are not the same.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Nigelb said:



    I still can’t decide whether he’s likely to just fade away, or if the US descends into serious civil unrest.

    He'll definitely run in 2024. Why wouldn't he? Because he suddenly develops a distaste for power, wealth and other people's money? He will start campaigning for MAGA2024 on 20/1/21. The rest of the quasi-fascists and bible wankers in the GOP can do nothing to stop him.

    He'll probably win as he'll either be up against whatever is left of Biden's brain in a jar hooked up to a car battery and Hunter's laptop or Kamala Harris.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    S.Africa vs England called off again, more Covid-19, this time among hotel staff
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Dura_Ace said:

    He'll definitely run in 2024. Why wouldn't he?

    Insurmountable legal troubles. Or a heart attack.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    Which is why some sort of agreement to effectively continue the current arrangements, at least for trade and any other matters so far unresolved, for a few more months, would now politically be very sensible.

    The extent of our unpreparedness for something that has been four and a half years coming is truly staggering.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823
    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    "frictionless trade", "all the same benefits" - as in the US, politicians seemingly are no longer held to account for all the lies we have been told.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Scott_xP said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    He'll definitely run in 2024. Why wouldn't he?

    Insurmountable legal troubles. Or a heart attack.
    Or the Lincoln Project people doing enough to split the GOP?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scott_xP said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    He'll definitely run in 2024. Why wouldn't he?

    Insurmountable legal troubles. Or a heart attack.
    His old man lived until he was 96 or something. He presumably endured by the power of racial hatred.

    The legal troubles will only burnish his credentials as a righteous man beset on all sides in the addled eyes of the Maga Army.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    RobD said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
    Don't think so, but he's not good at coherence.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Dura_Ace said:

    His old man lived until he was 96 or something. He presumably endured by the power of racial hatred.

    But he was mentally incompetent at the end.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited December 2020

    RobD said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
    Don't think so, but he's not good at coherence.
    I think technically he was (referring to the WA) actually, but sold it as something it wasn’t. So it makes no difference.

    Especially as he’s now repudiated the WA anyway.

  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    Terrible though it is, part of me wants to think it's only right that there should be no deal, so that the real consequences can be displayed for all to see. Except I know that for the extreme Brexit loonies there will always be someone else to blame for the consequences of their own folly. (Cf. D. J. Trump, Jr, and his - still unbelievably extant - fans.)

    And a lot of the people who will suffer would be more accurately classified as their victims. And also a lot of people will suffer who could see all along what lunacy it was, because in this world there's a limit to how far you can protect yourself against other people's stupidity.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    Interesting. They've got a battle on. Anti-roads people dressing up in Lincoln Green costumes.

    The assessment doesn't seem to take into account either savings from reductions of congestion elsewhere, or the increase in ZEV - traffic emissions count for more than half of it and we will be overwhelmingly ZEV for perhaps 45-50 years of the 60 year calculated period.

    One of a smallish number of BBC stories where I have seen a link direct to What Do They Know.
    Of course, ZEV are only zero emissions if they are charged using renewable sources of power.
    That's not true.

    Nuclear is not renewable, and is Zero Emission.

    There are also times when it's more efficient for the grid to generate power than not.
    Can I do a HYUFD and count radiation as an emission?
    Sure you can...

    But only if you want me to point out that (over sufficiently long timespans) coal, gas and oil are renewable too.
    Really? I thought they were created by one-off geological events, but I know little about it and I could easily be wrong.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Trump's Georgia rally is near-disastrous for the GOP run-offs. Instead of focusing on the two Republican candidates he has launched a vitriolic attack on Governor Brian Kemp, pressuring him to call a special session and convince state legislators to select their own electors that would support him, according to a Washington Post source. He also asked the Republican governor to order an audit of absentee ballot signatures

    Then, at the rally, he went on another of his narcissistic tantrum rants.

    I'm beginning to dare to hope that the Democrats might just win both run-offs. Early voting begins a week tomorrow.

    Trump is quite mad. And his madness is incredibly corrosive to democracy in America.
    So does everyone ignore him after 20th Jan, and pretend he never happened, or do they keep him in the news every day for he next four years? I’m betting on the latter.
    So...

    I foolishly tried to engage some MAGAites on Twitter.

    The issue was about postal votes and how she signatures didn't match, and there were all going to get thrown out, and therefore Trump would be handed the State by the courts.

    First, I pointed out that - even if some votes were found to have been fraudulently cast - you couldn't know who they had been cast for.

    Secondly, I pointed out that if 11% of postal votes were fraudulently cast, you didn't need "an audit", you just needed to speak to nine people who were supposed to have voted, so as to find the one who didn't.

    And those people are publicly listed. It would literally take twenty minutes to find enough evidence of people who didn't actually vote.

    I've deleted Twitter from my phone.

    It's insane, and it's a testament to this site that - even when there are people one disagrees with - the arguments are normally civil and fact based.
    There are millions of idiots on social media, and the platform is designed to amplify fringe conspiracy theories and generate negative emotion - which drives ‘engagement’.

    A huge problem of modern TV media, as dicussed in the header, is that everyone involved is obsessed by what’s trending on Twitter. David Cameron was right about it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    Which is why some sort of agreement to effectively continue the current arrangements, at least for trade and any other matters so far unresolved, for a few more months, would now politically be very sensible.

    The extent of our unpreparedness for something that has been four and a half years coming is truly staggering.
    There were signs in some of the quotes in the press last week that the Govt were actually preparing to blame U.K. businesses for not preparing sufficiently. (particularly those involved in food supplies for which it appears the Govt takes no responsibility and has no emergency plans whatsoever). Because they hadn’t done enough to make a success of this “shared national endeavour”, and had relied too much on wishful thinking of end state trading scenarios.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    An excellent thread header. Personally I'm not all that bothered about the internet. I think, understandably, people like us overestimate the importance of the internet. My parents wouldn't have a clue about the stuff written on the internet if it wasn't for the TV media repeating the nonsense. Quite simply, the mainstream media should not be talking about concerns about vaccines. They shouldn't even be asking questions about how the government intends to get people to have the jab - simply asking that question suggests to the audience that perhaps they ought to be worried. They shouldn't. And they certainly shouldn't have repeated the claims from Dr Fauci (I know he's apologised, but it just smacks of the media enjoying the confrontation, which is not what's needed right now).

    but there is plenty of evidence that talk about suicide acts as a cue in the suggestible.

    Absolutely. I went to a conference on suicide at Network Rail a few years ago. One of the presenters explained how they'd tried to persuade Coronation Street to not do the Hayley Cropper suicide story. They weren't successful in getting it stopped, but they managed to convince the producers to limit what they showed. Also, did you know that there was a spike in suicides when Robin Williams took his own life?

    This should apply post-COVID. We need the media to STOP TALKING ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH. It makes things worse, not better.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,354
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Any thoughts Boris has of building our way out of the COVID recession is going to be fought tooth and nail by the Green lobby...

    Climate change: Lower Thames Crossing CO2 impact figures revealed

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-55202801

    Interesting. They've got a battle on. Anti-roads people dressing up in Lincoln Green costumes.

    The assessment doesn't seem to take into account either savings from reductions of congestion elsewhere, or the increase in ZEV - traffic emissions count for more than half of it and we will be overwhelmingly ZEV for perhaps 45-50 years of the 60 year calculated period.

    One of a smallish number of BBC stories where I have seen a link direct to What Do They Know.
    Of course, ZEV are only zero emissions if they are charged using renewable sources of power.
    That's not true.

    Nuclear is not renewable, and is Zero Emission.

    There are also times when it's more efficient for the grid to generate power than not.
    Nuclear is very far from zero waste. As your great great great great great great great great grandkids will still be attesting.

    It's also Zero Emission - until it spectacularly isn't.

    *Chernobyl and Fukushima wave*
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
    We’d be really in the sh*t if there wasn’t.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    RobD said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
    Don't think so, but he's not good at coherence.
    Here he is talking about it in the context of the withdrawal agreement:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/05/deal-oven-ready-get-brexit-done-take-country-forward/
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
    Don't think so, but he's not good at coherence.
    Here he is talking about it in the context of the withdrawal agreement:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/05/deal-oven-ready-get-brexit-done-take-country-forward/
    It was one of those evil genius lines- it could easily be heard as meaning an end state deal, even if that was never said.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
    Don't think so, but he's not good at coherence.
    Here he is talking about it in the context of the withdrawal agreement:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/05/deal-oven-ready-get-brexit-done-take-country-forward/
    It was one of those evil genius lines- it could easily be heard as meaning an end state deal, even if that was never said.
    Except here he is referring to the WA, not the FTA.
  • Betting Post

    F1: backed Sainz to be top 6 at 2.8. He's achieved that in 4/5 recent races, and was a tenth off top 6 pace in qualifying. Reckon he has a decent shot.

    As an aside, also done a little bit more hedging on Bottas/Verstappen. I'm ahead on the win market whatever happens now.

    Pre-race ramble here:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2020/12/sakhir-pre-race-2020.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,354
    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
    And how many flights will it take to fly in those "pizza boxes", each with 950 doses per box? A pallet 10 x 10 x 20 of such boxes is 1.9 million doses....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    Nuclear is very far from zero waste. As your great great great great great great great great grandkids will still be attesting.

    It's also Zero Emission - until it spectacularly isn't.

    *Chernobyl and Fukushima wave*

    Do you have any strongly held and oft evinced thoughts on any alternative means of renewable energy generation that you'd like to share with us?
  • Chris said:

    Terrible though it is, part of me wants to think it's only right that there should be no deal, so that the real consequences can be displayed for all to see. Except I know that for the extreme Brexit loonies there will always be someone else to blame for the consequences of their own folly. (Cf. D. J. Trump, Jr, and his - still unbelievably extant - fans.)

    And a lot of the people who will suffer would be more accurately classified as their victims. And also a lot of people will suffer who could see all along what lunacy it was, because in this world there's a limit to how far you can protect yourself against other people's stupidity.

    I hope there will be a deal. It's not only about the immediate consequences, it's about what a failure will mean for the future existence of the UK, how we are perceived internationally and the long term harm that will do us.

    Whatever happens we are going to be poorer, less free, less united and more peripheral, but without a deal it will be so much worse. The problem is that I just do not see how one can be done as there is no deal that will satisfy the people whose political acquiescence (the ERG) or irrelevance (Farage) Johnson needs to stay in power. And given that Johnson will always put his own interests first, how can he sign up to anything that will inevitably cause apoplexy among both groups - small as they are in the great scheme of things?

  • alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    Which is why some sort of agreement to effectively continue the current arrangements, at least for trade and any other matters so far unresolved, for a few more months, would now politically be very sensible.

    The extent of our unpreparedness for something that has been four and a half years coming is truly staggering.
    There were signs in some of the quotes in the press last week that the Govt were actually preparing to blame U.K. businesses for not preparing sufficiently. (particularly those involved in food supplies for which it appears the Govt takes no responsibility and has no emergency plans whatsoever). Because they hadn’t done enough to make a success of this “shared national endeavour”, and had relied too much on wishful thinking of end state trading scenarios.

    What we know is that whatever happens the government will never take situation for a state of affairs caused solely by decisions it has taken.

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
    Don't think so, but he's not good at coherence.
    Here he is talking about it in the context of the withdrawal agreement:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/05/deal-oven-ready-get-brexit-done-take-country-forward/
    It was one of those evil genius lines- it could easily be heard as meaning an end state deal, even if that was never said.
    Except here he is referring to the WA, not the FTA.
    Which he’s a) repudiated and b) was front and centre of an election campaign to “get Brexit Done”. Which is technically true, but people are going to get a shock in January.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,354
    RobD said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
    Have to remember that this time last year we were still electing a Parliament needed to weed out the Wollastons and the Grieves that could actually pass a Brexit Bill. Which didn't get the Royal Assent until 23rd January this year.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
    And how many flights will it take to fly in those "pizza boxes", each with 950 doses per box? A pallet 10 x 10 x 20 of such boxes is 1.9 million doses....
    A single C-17 has a cargo area 27m x 5.5m x 3.75m high, and has a max load of 77,500kg.

    You’d probably do it with one plane in less than a week.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507
    Watching MOTD repeat and thinking about the debate concerning heading the ball and long-term brain injury. I think if they banned heading outside the penalty areas it would cut the number of headers a lot and might even make for a better game.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,354
    Dura_Ace said:



    Nuclear is very far from zero waste. As your great great great great great great great great grandkids will still be attesting.

    It's also Zero Emission - until it spectacularly isn't.

    *Chernobyl and Fukushima wave*

    Do you have any strongly held and oft evinced thoughts on any alternative means of renewable energy generation that you'd like to share with us?
    It's possible....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Anecdote time. My dad hasn't been especially well this year. Last week he managed to do a hernia. Anyway, he went to see his GP who sent him off to the hospital. He spent most of Wednesday afternoon in outpatients as the doctors there examined him. He went back on Thursday - and spent all day there - before they decided that he needed surgery, which they'd do on Saturday once he'd been off some pills. Great, we thought, they're not messing around. Anyway, he goes back for one last check on Friday. This time, a doctor who he had not seen at all up to this point examines him and decides that actually, it's not that bad, we don't need to operate. Go home and let us know if you're in any pain.

    My dad's observation about the hospital was that, whilst most - but certainly not all - staff were wearing masks and temperatures were being checked, they seemed rather relaxed about COVID. It seems beyond bizarre that they went through to all that effort only to have someone (presumably more senior) veto surgery. I've been concerned about COVID preventing other stuff being done by the NHS. But what my dad went through shocked me. Surely you get the key decision maker involved straight away so that you don't waste time and increase risks of COVID being spread.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
    And how many flights will it take to fly in those "pizza boxes", each with 950 doses per box? A pallet 10 x 10 x 20 of such boxes is 1.9 million doses....
    A single C-17 has a cargo area 27m x 5.5m x 3.75m high, and has a max load of 77,500kg.

    You’d probably do it with one plane in less than a week.
    The point i was making is not that it is difficult, or that there is any risk to being able to get vaccine supplies into the country. It is the fact that this reassurance is needing to be offered at all.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823
    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
    Don't think so, but he's not good at coherence.
    Here he is talking about it in the context of the withdrawal agreement:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/05/deal-oven-ready-get-brexit-done-take-country-forward/
    It was one of those evil genius lines- it could easily be heard as meaning an end state deal, even if that was never said.
    Except here he is referring to the WA, not the FTA.
    Which he’s a) repudiated and b) was front and centre of an election campaign to “get Brexit Done”. Which is technically true, but people are going to get a shock in January.
    I'm not disputing that, but it's just false to claim the "oven ready deal" refers to the FTA.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    So the cabinet lap dogs are backing Bozos no deal . What a surprise!

    Bozo seems more interested in finding someone to blame than actually getting a deal .
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    The problem is that I just do not see how one can be done as there is no deal that will satisfy the people whose political acquiescence (the ERG) or irrelevance (Farage) Johnson needs to stay in power. And given that Johnson will always put his own interests first, how can he sign up to anything that will inevitably cause apoplexy among both groups - small as they are in the great scheme of things?

    All of this is true, but how vocal are they going to be in support when the reality of No Deal bites?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    RobD said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Wasn't he referring to the withdrawal agreement?
    Have to remember that this time last year we were still electing a Parliament needed to weed out the Wollastons and the Grieves that could actually pass a Brexit Bill. Which didn't get the Royal Assent until 23rd January this year.
    And even more impressively, Johnson has tried to repeal it before it even comes into force.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,354
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
    And how many flights will it take to fly in those "pizza boxes", each with 950 doses per box? A pallet 10 x 10 x 20 of such boxes is 1.9 million doses....
    A single C-17 has a cargo area 27m x 5.5m x 3.75m high, and has a max load of 77,500kg.

    You’d probably do it with one plane in less than a week.
    I reckon we could get our current 2020 allocation in a single flight. Here by lunchtime....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
    And how many flights will it take to fly in those "pizza boxes", each with 950 doses per box? A pallet 10 x 10 x 20 of such boxes is 1.9 million doses....
    A single C-17 has a cargo area 27m x 5.5m x 3.75m high, and has a max load of 77,500kg.

    You’d probably do it with one plane in less than a week.
    I reckon we could get our current 2020 allocation in a single flight. Here by lunchtime....
    Eggs and basket come to mind.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    tlg86 said:

    Anecdote time. My dad hasn't been especially well this year. Last week he managed to do a hernia. Anyway, he went to see his GP who sent him off to the hospital. He spent most of Wednesday afternoon in outpatients as the doctors there examined him. He went back on Thursday - and spent all day there - before they decided that he needed surgery, which they'd do on Saturday once he'd been off some pills. Great, we thought, they're not messing around. Anyway, he goes back for one last check on Friday. This time, a doctor who he had not seen at all up to this point examines him and decides that actually, it's not that bad, we don't need to operate. Go home and let us know if you're in any pain.

    My dad's observation about the hospital was that, whilst most - but certainly not all - staff were wearing masks and temperatures were being checked, they seemed rather relaxed about COVID. It seems beyond bizarre that they went through to all that effort only to have someone (presumably more senior) veto surgery. I've been concerned about COVID preventing other stuff being done by the NHS. But what my dad went through shocked me. Surely you get the key decision maker involved straight away so that you don't waste time and increase risks of COVID being spread.

    Sorry to hear about your dad. Sounds a bit of a shambles.

    But while @Foxy would know more than me, friends in the NHS are saying what’s causing major problems is not the infections but the isolating contacts (as it is in schools). That may be why they tried to hold the senior person back to the last minute.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:



    A single C-17 has a cargo area 27m x 5.5m x 3.75m high, and has a max load of 77,500kg.

    You’d probably do it with one plane in less than a week.

    Crab Air is grossly unsuited to cargo operator style 24x7 ops. They would run out of crews quite quickly. That's not say they couldn't help as the big advantage of C-17/A400/C-130 ops is not that they add capacity but they don't need any specific equipment to load/unload except a few fat lads with their arse cracks showing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,354
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
    And how many flights will it take to fly in those "pizza boxes", each with 950 doses per box? A pallet 10 x 10 x 20 of such boxes is 1.9 million doses....
    A single C-17 has a cargo area 27m x 5.5m x 3.75m high, and has a max load of 77,500kg.

    You’d probably do it with one plane in less than a week.
    I reckon we could get our current 2020 allocation in a single flight. Here by lunchtime....
    Eggs and basket come to mind.
    Alternatively, send a thousand guys with pizza delivery bikes.....
  • Nevada back out two ticks; Trump exit date 2021 continues to fall as next year gets closer.
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    Trump to leave before end of term NO 1.11
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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    alex_ said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
    And how many flights will it take to fly in those "pizza boxes", each with 950 doses per box? A pallet 10 x 10 x 20 of such boxes is 1.9 million doses....
    A single C-17 has a cargo area 27m x 5.5m x 3.75m high, and has a max load of 77,500kg.

    You’d probably do it with one plane in less than a week.
    The point i was making is not that it is difficult, or that there is any risk to being able to get vaccine supplies into the country. It is the fact that this reassurance is needing to be offered at all.
    The reassurance is needed, because certain parts of the political media spent last week positively relishing the idea that vaccines would get stuck in transit.
  • Scott_xP said:

    The problem is that I just do not see how one can be done as there is no deal that will satisfy the people whose political acquiescence (the ERG) or irrelevance (Farage) Johnson needs to stay in power. And given that Johnson will always put his own interests first, how can he sign up to anything that will inevitably cause apoplexy among both groups - small as they are in the great scheme of things?

    All of this is true, but how vocal are they going to be in support when the reality of No Deal bites?

    Obviously, they will take no responsibility whatsoever and will blame everyone but themselves - but they will kick up a huge fuss if Johnson then seeks a deal with Brussels.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    The clown’s problem is that he has spent his political capital and blown his credibility just before the main event for which he always needed them.

    But the cabinet of useless sycophants are totally behind him...
    If you remember, this time last year our PM was going round the country talking about an oven-ready deal which he only had to pop in the microwave.

    Edit; FFS.
    Part of the additional problem is that without some sort of transition, almost all the chaos of no-deal will happen under a deal scenario anyway. So they’ll decide politically, why bother with the latter?

    You would have thought that the headlines about the military flying in vaccine supplies to get round the border problems would have made them question what they were doing. That such a thing would be necessary. There is no situation where needing to rely on the military should be seen as a “good news story”. Relying on the military for civilian roles is about the biggest admission/evidence of the failure of the state that you can get. It’s no surprise it’s been cited as a potential backstop so often in recent years.

    One thing that will be amusing amid the madness is how they will explain away the fish shortages.

    That's another one of those 'bullshitters bullshitting' headlines.

    Headline:
    "Military planes to fly vaccines in to Britain to avoid ports hit by Brexit"

    Reality once you read the story
    There is a contingency plan.
    And how many flights will it take to fly in those "pizza boxes", each with 950 doses per box? A pallet 10 x 10 x 20 of such boxes is 1.9 million doses....
    A single C-17 has a cargo area 27m x 5.5m x 3.75m high, and has a max load of 77,500kg.

    You’d probably do it with one plane in less than a week.
    I reckon we could get our current 2020 allocation in a single flight. Here by lunchtime....
    Eggs and basket come to mind.
    Alternatively, send a thousand guys with pizza delivery bikes.....
    Great idea. Select any who have willingly delivered a pizza with pineapple on it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    There would be a brief Churchillan moment, before Britain's no-deal Brexit preparations began to look like Enver Hoxha's mini-bunkers he peppered the landscape with, and the reality of Britain having a similar trading status to Albania with the rest of Europe started to become obvious.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nuclear is not renewable, and is Zero Emission.

    No it isn't.

    Uranium mining is CO2 intensive, as is construction.
    In which case everything is CO2 intensive.

    Concrete for wind turbines? Steel? Purifying silicon?
    Of course - but nuclear compares quite badly with renewables in lifetime CO2 per watt. Even more if you include decommissioning.

    Then again, if you sufficient have surplus electricity, you can use it to suck CO2 out of the atmosphere.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nuclear is not renewable, and is Zero Emission.

    No it isn't.

    Uranium mining is CO2 intensive, as is construction.
    In which case everything is CO2 intensive.

    Concrete for wind turbines? Steel? Purifying silicon?
    Of course - but nuclear compares quite badly with renewables in lifetime CO2 per watt. Even more if you include decommissioning.

    Then again, if you sufficient have surplus electricity, you can use it to suck CO2 out of the atmosphere.
    Or alternatively, plant trees.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    Thanks Alistair for an interesting piece.

    I have a conspiracy theorist amongst my outer Facebook circle now (for the first time), though more of the Ga-Ga-Glastonbury variety.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1335502869752115204

    Like the story of someone willing to have sex for £1M, but not for £5, the principle of allowing EU boats to fish in UK waters has been conceded, we are just haggling over the price...
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Scott_xP said:
    I still struggle somewhat to comprehend how the Govt reconciles needing to be able to apportion blame with their simultaneous claims that no deal (“Australia deal”) will be an excellent outcome for the country. Why would you need to find blame for an excellent outcome?

    Or are they going to accuse somebody of sabotaging the Australia deal?
  • Scott_xP said:
    There would be a brief Churchillan moment, before Britain's no-deal Brexit preparations began to look like Enver Hoxha's mini-bunkers he peppered the landscape with, and the reality of Britain having a similar trading status to Albania with the rest of Europe started to become obvious.

    Yep - blaming the French gets you through a few news cycles, but then what? We have been told that no deal is no problem and that the UK will thrive mightily without one. There will need to be delivery on that.

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Scott_xP said:

    The problem is that I just do not see how one can be done as there is no deal that will satisfy the people whose political acquiescence (the ERG) or irrelevance (Farage) Johnson needs to stay in power. And given that Johnson will always put his own interests first, how can he sign up to anything that will inevitably cause apoplexy among both groups - small as they are in the great scheme of things?

    All of this is true, but how vocal are they going to be in support when the reality of No Deal bites?

    Obviously, they will take no responsibility whatsoever and will blame everyone but themselves - but they will kick up a huge fuss if Johnson then seeks a deal with Brussels.

    They will say the Govt preparation has been undermined by the Remainers in the Civil Service.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    Watching MOTD repeat and thinking about the debate concerning heading the ball and long-term brain injury. I think if they banned heading outside the penalty areas it would cut the number of headers a lot and might even make for a better game.

    Trouble is there is probably a lot more heading during practice rather than playing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    A single C-17 has a cargo area 27m x 5.5m x 3.75m high, and has a max load of 77,500kg.

    You’d probably do it with one plane in less than a week.

    Crab Air is grossly unsuited to cargo operator style 24x7 ops. They would run out of crews quite quickly. That's not say they couldn't help as the big advantage of C-17/A400/C-130 ops is not that they add capacity but they don't need any specific equipment to load/unload except a few fat lads with their arse cracks showing.
    How many crews would they need? What do Crab Air’s flight time timitations look like?

    In civvy street they have around five crews per airframe, with FTLs of 100hr/month and 900hr/year.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1335502869752115204

    Like the story of someone willing to have sex for £1M, but not for £5, the principle of allowing EU boats to fish in UK waters has been conceded, we are just haggling over the price...

    This would be necessary to some extent anyway, because existing supply chain can hardly be suspended and reconfigured overnight on 1st January creating massive shortages
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited December 2020
    kjh said:

    Watching MOTD repeat and thinking about the debate concerning heading the ball and long-term brain injury. I think if they banned heading outside the penalty areas it would cut the number of headers a lot and might even make for a better game.

    Trouble is there is probably a lot more heading during practice rather than playing.
    My local team have (or had when I was last able to watch them) a predilection for booting the ball high up field and trying to head it on. Seemed to be common practice in their league.
    Just hoping that by early/mid Jan, when my vaccination course is completed, I'll be able to go and see them again.
This discussion has been closed.