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Even after 38 court flops and two recounts punters are still ready to bet on Trump and Betfair remai

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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    IDS, Corbyn, the DUP, the ERG, Sultana
    HOUSE !


    https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/916#noes
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    Quite agree with all of these points. Still really enjoyed the third book though.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364

    ydoethur said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Just a minor point, but more government MPs voted against tiers tonight (55] than voted against Chamberlain in the Norway debate (41).

    I think you will find the size of that rebellion caused more than a few issues for Mr Chamberlain.
    Bit of trivia. Who was the last surviving person who had voted against Chamberlain in that vote?
    That makes it sound like Chamberlain ruthlessly hunted down those who voted against him.
    Now I want the sequel to Abraham Lincoln - Vampire Hunter to feature Chamberlin as a ruthless hunter of the undead......
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Indeed. He didn’t have to rely on the tacit support of the Opposition. Not at all. Completely normal for a man who won in a landslide less than a year ago.
    Labour don't have 213 votes to be fair: he would still have won.
    I don’t think that’s right is it? How many Labour MPs voted with the Government? There appear to have been 58 Tory rebels so if the other 20 non-Tories had not supported him over then his majority would have been only 173. I understand that one of the MPs voting with the Government was Jeremy Corbyn. So, to clarify, Johnson won with the tactic support of Starmer’s abstention and the actual support of the likes of Jeremy Corbyn voting with him.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    I don't understand why the minister concerned has been criticised?

    If it was Hancock saying it then I'd say "haven't you got better things to be dealing with"?

    But the person who said it was ... Culture Secretary. Dealing with Cultural issues is literally his responsibility.

    Culture Secretary speaks about biggest drama on TV shouldn't be shocking news.
    That he spoke about it wasn't the issue, it's that I think what he said was dumb. You surely don't think that ministers should not be criticised for their comments relating to their departments.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    ydoethur said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Just a minor point, but more government MPs voted against tiers tonight (55] than voted against Chamberlain in the Norway debate (41).

    I think you will find the size of that rebellion caused more than a few issues for Mr Chamberlain.
    Bit of trivia. Who was the last surviving person who had voted against Chamberlain in that vote?
    That makes it sound like Chamberlain ruthlessly hunted down those who voted against him.
    Now I want the sequel to Abraham Lincoln - Vampire Hunter to feature Chamberlin as a ruthless hunter of the undead......
    Honestly, the micro budget mockbuster Abraham Lincoln vs Zombies wasn't that bad.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,481

    ydoethur said:


    2 TMexPm may have a note from Matron (who knows?), but there is something delicious about seeing her give her successor exactly as much support from the backbenches as he gave her... I think her revenge could definitely be a substantial enough meal to qualify for a drink.

    And of course there’s nothing he can do about that until 2024 either...
    I am as far from a classical scholar as you can get. I'm a physicist who went to a comprehensive in the late 1980s.

    But my understanding is that a lot of classical literature boils down to:
    1. Mortal has character flaw.
    2. Gods come up with a punishment that exquisitely exploits said character flaw.
    3. Punishment lasts forever.

    Boris ought to be able to work out what's coming his way, shouldn't he?
    Being permanently rogered by a priapic Old English Sheep Dog?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited December 2020

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    ydoethur said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Just a minor point, but more government MPs voted against tiers tonight (55] than voted against Chamberlain in the Norway debate (41).

    I think you will find the size of that rebellion caused more than a few issues for Mr Chamberlain.
    Bit of trivia. Who was the last surviving person who had voted against Chamberlain in that vote?
    That makes it sound like Chamberlain ruthlessly hunted down those who voted against him.
    Prove he didn't.
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Blimey Part Two.

    For all that something had to be passed tonight, and so allowing it to pass was the right thing to do...

    1 The government can't keep its "the 2019 landslide means you can't touch us until 2024" act going after this- can they? (Seriously- allowing a vote on regulations five hours before they come into force is just a dick move).

    2 TMexPm may have a note from Matron (who knows?), but there is something delicious about seeing her give her successor exactly as much support from the backbenches as he gave her... I think her revenge could definitely be a substantial enough meal to qualify for a drink.
    1) No, they can't, but with vaccine rollout they probably are correct they can push past Covid rebellions for another 6-9 months, as Labour will probably abstain on many measures.

    I don't think Boris cares except for rebellions on Brexit

    2) Certainly hope so.
    What does Boris want? I've read two or three of his biographies and two or three of his books, and rewatched When Boris Met Dave, Brexit (with Benedict Cumberbatch) and his lap of the Top Gear track, but I cannot pretend to understand the Prime Minister.

    Boris uses people rather than likes them, and brooks no dissent as many purged MPs will testify, or disloyalty, as Dominic Cummings will, but his ruthless power plays do not seem to be in aid of any great cause. Sfaict, Boris's position on Brexit and the pandemic is he hopes someone will make them go away so we can all live happily ever after.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Am I the only one that really wants a Scotch Egg right now?

    You can have half of mine
    I want one too, to put in the fridge for lunch. Maybe made with venison.
    Since when have deer laid eggs?
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Indeed. He didn’t have to rely on the tacit support of the Opposition. Not at all. Completely normal for a man who won in a landslide less than a year ago.
    Labour don't have 213 votes to be fair: he would still have won.
    I don’t think that’s right is it? How many Labour MPs voted with the Government? There appear to have been 58 Tory rebels so if the other 20 non-Tories had not supported him over then his majority would have been only 173. I understand that one of the MPs voting with the Government was Jeremy Corbyn. So, to clarify, Johnson won with the tactic support of Starmer’s abstention and the actual support of the likes of Jeremy Corbyn voting with him.
    But as the majority was 213, if the Labour party had voted against he would still have won, surely? After all Jeremy is not a Labour MP.
  • ydoethur said:


    2 TMexPm may have a note from Matron (who knows?), but there is something delicious about seeing her give her successor exactly as much support from the backbenches as he gave her... I think her revenge could definitely be a substantial enough meal to qualify for a drink.

    And of course there’s nothing he can do about that until 2024 either...
    I am as far from a classical scholar as you can get. I'm a physicist who went to a comprehensive in the late 1980s.

    But my understanding is that a lot of classical literature boils down to:
    1. Mortal has character flaw.
    2. Gods come up with a punishment that exquisitely exploits said character flaw.
    3. Punishment lasts forever.

    Boris ought to be able to work out what's coming his way, shouldn't he?
    Being permanently rogered by a priapic Old English Sheep Dog?
    Maybe an infinite line of different priapic Old English Sheep Dogs? So as not to develop a relationship with any of them?
    "You can banish any of them whenever you like... there will always be another..."

    This classics stuff is easy, isn't it?

    #TeamNatSci
  • ydoethur said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Just a minor point, but more government MPs voted against tiers tonight (55] than voted against Chamberlain in the Norway debate (41).

    I think you will find the size of that rebellion caused more than a few issues for Mr Chamberlain.
    Bit of trivia. Who was the last surviving person who had voted against Chamberlain in that vote?
    That makes it sound like Chamberlain ruthlessly hunted down those who voted against him.
    Chamberlain died of bowel cancer just a few months later, in December 1940.
  • This was an interesting moment today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE1flg_qqiE
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    ydoethur said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Just a minor point, but more government MPs voted against tiers tonight (55] than voted against Chamberlain in the Norway debate (41).

    I think you will find the size of that rebellion caused more than a few issues for Mr Chamberlain.
    Bit of trivia. Who was the last surviving person who had voted against Chamberlain in that vote?
    That makes it sound like Chamberlain ruthlessly hunted down those who voted against him.
    Chamberlain died of bowel cancer just a few months later, in December 1940.
    So it’s a ghost story?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Blimey Part Two.

    For all that something had to be passed tonight, and so allowing it to pass was the right thing to do...

    1 The government can't keep its "the 2019 landslide means you can't touch us until 2024" act going after this- can they? (Seriously- allowing a vote on regulations five hours before they come into force is just a dick move).

    2 TMexPm may have a note from Matron (who knows?), but there is something delicious about seeing her give her successor exactly as much support from the backbenches as he gave her... I think her revenge could definitely be a substantial enough meal to qualify for a drink.
    1) No, they can't, but with vaccine rollout they probably are correct they can push past Covid rebellions for another 6-9 months, as Labour will probably abstain on many measures.

    I don't think Boris cares except for rebellions on Brexit

    2) Certainly hope so.
    What does Boris want? I've read two or three of his biographies and two or three of his books, and rewatched When Boris Met Dave, Brexit (with Benedict Cumberbatch) and his lap of the Top Gear track, but I cannot pretend to understand the Prime Minister.

    Boris uses people rather than likes them, and brooks no dissent as many purged MPs will testify, or disloyalty, as Dominic Cummings will, but his ruthless power plays do not seem to be in aid of any great cause. Sfaict, Boris's position on Brexit and the pandemic is he hopes someone will make them go away so we can all live happily ever after.
    He perpetually seeks psychological redemption from his damaged childhood.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    So after Rita Ora leaving me in a state of bafflement yesterday, today it is the turn of Ellen/Elliot Page.

    A film star, apparently.
  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 257
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Blimey Part Two.

    For all that something had to be passed tonight, and so allowing it to pass was the right thing to do...

    1 The government can't keep its "the 2019 landslide means you can't touch us until 2024" act going after this- can they? (Seriously- allowing a vote on regulations five hours before they come into force is just a dick move).

    2 TMexPm may have a note from Matron (who knows?), but there is something delicious about seeing her give her successor exactly as much support from the backbenches as he gave her... I think her revenge could definitely be a substantial enough meal to qualify for a drink.
    1) No, they can't, but with vaccine rollout they probably are correct they can push past Covid rebellions for another 6-9 months, as Labour will probably abstain on many measures.

    I don't think Boris cares except for rebellions on Brexit

    2) Certainly hope so.
    What does Boris want? I've read two or three of his biographies and two or three of his books, and rewatched When Boris Met Dave, Brexit (with Benedict Cumberbatch) and his lap of the Top Gear track, but I cannot pretend to understand the Prime Minister.

    Boris uses people rather than likes them, and brooks no dissent as many purged MPs will testify, or disloyalty, as Dominic Cummings will, but his ruthless power plays do not seem to be in aid of any great cause. Sfaict, Boris's position on Brexit and the pandemic is he hopes someone will make them go away so we can all live happily ever after.
    He perpetually seeks psychological redemption from his damaged childhood.
    Yes, I think the only way of understanding the mans actions are through the lens of his early life.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Just a minor point, but more government MPs voted against tiers tonight (55] than voted against Chamberlain in the Norway debate (41).

    I think you will find the size of that rebellion caused more than a few issues for Mr Chamberlain.
    Bit of trivia. Who was the last surviving person who had voted against Chamberlain in that vote?
    That makes it sound like Chamberlain ruthlessly hunted down those who voted against him.
    Chamberlain died of bowel cancer just a few months later, in December 1940.
    So it’s a ghost story?
    MR James style - Hitler finds out that a covenant signed by a dying man has a long... reach. And the penalties for breaking it... extreme
  • Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Just a minor point, but more government MPs voted against tiers tonight (55] than voted against Chamberlain in the Norway debate (41).

    I think you will find the size of that rebellion caused more than a few issues for Mr Chamberlain.
    Bit of trivia. Who was the last surviving person who had voted against Chamberlain in that vote?
    Manny Shinwell?
    Foot?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    So after Rita Ora leaving me in a state of bafflement yesterday, today it is the turn of Ellen/Elliot Page.

    A film star, apparently.

    He was nominated for Best Actress at the 2008 Oscars.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    So after Rita Ora leaving me in a state of bafflement yesterday, today it is the turn of Ellen/Elliot Page.

    A film star, apparently.

    Famed for playing a pregnant teenager, which as a man just proves what a good actor he was...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
  • Scott_xP said:

    So after Rita Ora leaving me in a state of bafflement yesterday, today it is the turn of Ellen/Elliot Page.

    A film star, apparently.

    Famed for playing a pregnant teenager, which as a man just proves what a good actor he was...
    Will he still be allowed to play female parts?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    tlg86 said:

    So after Rita Ora leaving me in a state of bafflement yesterday, today it is the turn of Ellen/Elliot Page.

    A film star, apparently.

    He was nominated for Best Actress at the 2008 Oscars.
    A sentence I never thought I'd read.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    tlg86 said:

    He was nominated for Best Actress at the 2008 Oscars.

    His best role was in Season 2 of the Trailer Park Boys
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Indeed. He didn’t have to rely on the tacit support of the Opposition. Not at all. Completely normal for a man who won in a landslide less than a year ago.
    Labour don't have 213 votes to be fair: he would still have won.
    I don’t think that’s right is it? How many Labour MPs voted with the Government? There appear to have been 58 Tory rebels so if the other 20 non-Tories had not supported him over then his majority would have been only 173. I understand that one of the MPs voting with the Government was Jeremy Corbyn. So, to clarify, Johnson won with the tactic support of Starmer’s abstention and the actual support of the likes of Jeremy Corbyn voting with him.
    Corbyn voted against, as did 14 Labour MPs.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    ydoethur said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Just a minor point, but more government MPs voted against tiers tonight (55] than voted against Chamberlain in the Norway debate (41).

    I think you will find the size of that rebellion caused more than a few issues for Mr Chamberlain.
    Bit of trivia. Who was the last surviving person who had voted against Chamberlain in that vote?
    That makes it sound like Chamberlain ruthlessly hunted down those who voted against him.
    Congratulations: that is the best comment of the week.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Will he still be allowed to play female parts?

    In drag, maybe?
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    I don't understand why the minister concerned has been criticised?

    If it was Hancock saying it then I'd say "haven't you got better things to be dealing with"?

    But the person who said it was ... Culture Secretary. Dealing with Cultural issues is literally his responsibility.

    Culture Secretary speaks about biggest drama on TV shouldn't be shocking news.
    That he spoke about it wasn't the issue, it's that I think what he said was dumb. You surely don't think that ministers should not be criticised for their comments relating to their departments.
    Why was what he said dumb?

    To disclaim that dramas involving depictions of real people include fictional events is standard in many dramas and legally required in many nations. I fail to see why what he said was dumb?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    These lawsuits are serious business and we should pay attention to them. Said the cool, clear headed rational bettor.

    https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1333885782101286912
  • rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    imho the 2nd book is far better. I think in theory you can read them as standalone books.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    They've scotch-egged the vaccine?
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    So I see the government got its measures through by 291 to 78 - a majority of 213.

    Boris sure is in trouble now :wink:

    Indeed. He didn’t have to rely on the tacit support of the Opposition. Not at all. Completely normal for a man who won in a landslide less than a year ago.
    Labour don't have 213 votes to be fair: he would still have won.
    I don’t think that’s right is it? How many Labour MPs voted with the Government? There appear to have been 58 Tory rebels so if the other 20 non-Tories had not supported him over then his majority would have been only 173. I understand that one of the MPs voting with the Government was Jeremy Corbyn. So, to clarify, Johnson won with the tactic support of Starmer’s abstention and the actual support of the likes of Jeremy Corbyn voting with him.
    And having a stonking big landslide majority.

    All the talk about having an 80 seat majority forgets that as this is an England only regulation the SNP won't vote.

    Plus of course Sinn Fein don't either.

    That means the working majority is actually 135. Since there were not 68 rebels that wasn't enough to overcome the majority.
  • Approval for one of the vaccines.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Damn, I thought it was a major new study about the health benefits of pineapple pizzas.
  • Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Or they've found another virus we need to worry about.
  • RobD said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Damn, I thought it was a major new study about the health benefits of pineapple pizzas.
    Eating pineapple pizzas is the leading cause of Covid-19.

    Eating food that goes against all laws of man, God, and nature is how we got into this mess.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited December 2020

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    I don't understand why the minister concerned has been criticised?

    If it was Hancock saying it then I'd say "haven't you got better things to be dealing with"?

    But the person who said it was ... Culture Secretary. Dealing with Cultural issues is literally his responsibility.

    Culture Secretary speaks about biggest drama on TV shouldn't be shocking news.
    That he spoke about it wasn't the issue, it's that I think what he said was dumb. You surely don't think that ministers should not be criticised for their comments relating to their departments.
    Why was what he said dumb?

    To disclaim that dramas involving depictions of real people include fictional events is standard in many dramas and legally required in many nations. I fail to see why what he said was dumb?
    I think it dumb because it treats the public as though they are dumb.

    You don't have to agree, it's a matter of opinion, so to turn your question around, I don't understand why you have a problem with people having a problem with the view he expressed. You've already gone from objecting to people criticising him for making the comments to criticising people having an opinion on his comments, I don't know where you will jump to next.
  • Blimey Johnson looks rough on BBC news. Totally clapped out.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    I don't understand why the minister concerned has been criticised?

    If it was Hancock saying it then I'd say "haven't you got better things to be dealing with"?

    But the person who said it was ... Culture Secretary. Dealing with Cultural issues is literally his responsibility.

    Culture Secretary speaks about biggest drama on TV shouldn't be shocking news.
    That he spoke about it wasn't the issue, it's that I think what he said was dumb. You surely don't think that ministers should not be criticised for their comments relating to their departments.
    Why was what he said dumb?

    To disclaim that dramas involving depictions of real people include fictional events is standard in many dramas and legally required in many nations. I fail to see why what he said was dumb?
    I think it dumb because it treats the public as though they are dumb.

    You don't have to agree, it's a matter of opinion, so to turn your question around, I don't understand why you have a problem with people having a problem with the view he expressed.
    There are people out there who think that Star Wars is a documentary: many if not most people will think that what they see in a programme like the Crown has to be true as "they wouldn't be allowed to say something that wasn't true".
  • tlg86 said:

    So after Rita Ora leaving me in a state of bafflement yesterday, today it is the turn of Ellen/Elliot Page.

    A film star, apparently.

    He was nominated for Best Actress at the 2008 Oscars.
    A sentence I never thought I'd read.
    Dustin Hoffman came close with Tootsie.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    I don't understand why the minister concerned has been criticised?

    If it was Hancock saying it then I'd say "haven't you got better things to be dealing with"?

    But the person who said it was ... Culture Secretary. Dealing with Cultural issues is literally his responsibility.

    Culture Secretary speaks about biggest drama on TV shouldn't be shocking news.
    That he spoke about it wasn't the issue, it's that I think what he said was dumb. You surely don't think that ministers should not be criticised for their comments relating to their departments.
    Why was what he said dumb?

    To disclaim that dramas involving depictions of real people include fictional events is standard in many dramas and legally required in many nations. I fail to see why what he said was dumb?
    I think it dumb because it treats the public as though they are dumb.

    You don't have to agree, it's a matter of opinion, so to turn your question around, I don't understand why you have a problem with people having a problem with the view he expressed. You've already gone from objecting to people criticising him for making the comments to criticising people having an opinion on his comments, I don't know where you will jump to next.
    I never expressed an opinion on people having a problem though. I literally only asked why it was dumb. That is a question not criticism. What in my posts was criticism?

    Saying that there should be disclaimers when involving real people is not a new idea, in fact studios have done a "all persons are fictitious" disclaimer since the 1930s. Doing so with people who aren't fictitious is surely eminently reasonable. And given that people have expressed concerns I don't see why the Culture Secretary weighing in is dumb?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited December 2020

    tlg86 said:

    So after Rita Ora leaving me in a state of bafflement yesterday, today it is the turn of Ellen/Elliot Page.

    A film star, apparently.

    He was nominated for Best Actress at the 2008 Oscars.
    A sentence I never thought I'd read.
    Dustin Hoffman came close with Tootsie.
    Wasn't there a problem with The Crying Game in that nominating Jaye Davidson for Best Supporting Actor was actually a major spoiler?
  • https://twitter.com/SJohnsonWPR/status/1333890843757907970?s=19

    Surely this is fraud by Sidney Powell?

    Surely she is setting herself up to be disbarred?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    That's not on. The Ministry of Silly Walks is British - Say No To Cultural Appropriation!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    I don't understand why the minister concerned has been criticised?

    If it was Hancock saying it then I'd say "haven't you got better things to be dealing with"?

    But the person who said it was ... Culture Secretary. Dealing with Cultural issues is literally his responsibility.

    Culture Secretary speaks about biggest drama on TV shouldn't be shocking news.
    That he spoke about it wasn't the issue, it's that I think what he said was dumb. You surely don't think that ministers should not be criticised for their comments relating to their departments.
    Why was what he said dumb?

    To disclaim that dramas involving depictions of real people include fictional events is standard in many dramas and legally required in many nations. I fail to see why what he said was dumb?
    I think it dumb because it treats the public as though they are dumb.

    You don't have to agree, it's a matter of opinion, so to turn your question around, I don't understand why you have a problem with people having a problem with the view he expressed. You've already gone from objecting to people criticising him for making the comments to criticising people having an opinion on his comments, I don't know where you will jump to next.
    They are.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
  • DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...
  • DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...
    NHS are second.

    (Care workers are first)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    That's not exactly unexpected; one would think Pfizer/BioNTech will be approved this week, with Moderna in the next week or two, and AZN by Christmas.
  • DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...
    NHS are second.

    (Care workers are first)
    That makes sense.
  • tlg86 said:

    So after Rita Ora leaving me in a state of bafflement yesterday, today it is the turn of Ellen/Elliot Page.

    A film star, apparently.

    He was nominated for Best Actress at the 2008 Oscars.
    A sentence I never thought I'd read.
    Dustin Hoffman came close with Tootsie.
    Wasn't there a problem with The Crying Game in that nominating Jaye Davidson for Best Supporting Actor was actually a major spoiler?
    Brilliant performance. But, sadly, Davidson never did much else.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    HYUFD said:
    Why is there never a ‘don’t care’ option in these polls ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    https://twitter.com/SJohnsonWPR/status/1333890843757907970?s=19

    Surely this is fraud by Sidney Powell?

    Surely she is setting herself up to be disbarred?

    If she's disbarred, all that demonstrates is the extent of the Deep State conspiracy against blatant lies President Trump.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited December 2020
    I don't think it is dreadful to have a disclaimer on the series apart from the fact that commercially I bet Netflix love the controversy of did it didn't it happen.

    (For clarity, it didn't.)
  • MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    Quite agree with all of these points. Still really enjoyed the third book though.
    Yes the third book was still very good. I bought it in hardback though and it was so bloody heavy. The second book is the best. Every word in it is a joy to read, even when you're crying.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,693
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:
    Why is there never a ‘don’t care’ option in these polls ?
    Because it would always be the leading option?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    edited December 2020
    Per CNN Biden just gained almost 700k votes in New York (and Trump gained lots too - not sure how many).

    Biden 80,914k, Trump 74,070k

    Biden 51.3%, Trump 46.9%
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Oh and on Mantel, No 3 is waiting there as a Christmas treat. The first two were fantastic.

    Same with The Testaments (waiting for Christmas).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...
    NHS are second.

    (Care workers are first)
    That makes sense.
    May be out of date:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/27/hospitals-england-told-prepare-early-december-covid-vaccine-rollout-nhs

    The Pfizer vaccine not only likes it cold but also can only be safely moved 4 times so you can get it to a UK hospital but no further. So NHS staff will be first because Pfizer is first out of the blocks.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    edited December 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    I gave up on Wolf Hall after 150 pages. It's rare for me not to finish a book once I've started but I couldn't cope any more with the 'present in the past' and the peculiar use of personal pronouns. It was frustrating because I like historical novels, the period fascinates me and she is perfectly capable of writing decent prose. For some reason though she adopts these strange artificial mannerisms which distract from the story. I think her readership mistake the mannerism for 'Art'. Good luck to them.

    I guess they also take her 'contrarian' view of history as original and thought provoking. I just find it as superficial and contrived as the stylistic mannerisms.

    It's not for me.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Must be MHRA approval for the Pfizer vaccine, it's said to be coming any day now. That means the first people could be getting vaccinated by Thursday!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    I gave up on Wolf Hall after 150 pages. It's rare for me not to finish a book once I've started but I couldn't cope any more with the 'present in the past' and the peculiar use of personal pronouns. It was frustrating because I like historical novels, the period fascinates me and she is perfectly capable of writing decent prose. For some reason though she adopts these strange artificial mannerisms which distract from the story. I think her readership mistake the mannerism for 'Art'. Good luck to them.

    I guess they also take her 'contrarian' view of history as original and thoguht provoking. I just find it as superficial and contrived as the stylistic mannerisms.

    It's not for me.
    It's not for everyone.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    RobD said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Damn, I thought it was a major new study about the health benefits of pineapple pizzas.
    Eating pineapple pizzas is the leading cause of Covid-19.

    Eating food that goes against all laws of man, God, and nature is how we got into this mess.
    Do you like those cheese cubes and pineapple bits on cocktail sticks that were ubiquitous at parties of old?

    Just asking.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934
    .
    Stocky said:

    RobD said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Damn, I thought it was a major new study about the health benefits of pineapple pizzas.
    Eating pineapple pizzas is the leading cause of Covid-19.

    Eating food that goes against all laws of man, God, and nature is how we got into this mess.
    Do you like those cheese cubes and pineapple bits on cocktail sticks that were ubiquitous at parties of old?

    Just asking.
    A gateway appetizer.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...

    DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...
    NHS are second.

    (Care workers are first)
    We have been notified to expect vaccination within a week or so. The logistics of the Pfizer vaccine means that NHS are first, then primary care and social care.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Stocky said:

    RobD said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Damn, I thought it was a major new study about the health benefits of pineapple pizzas.
    Eating pineapple pizzas is the leading cause of Covid-19.

    Eating food that goes against all laws of man, God, and nature is how we got into this mess.
    Do you like those cheese cubes and pineapple bits on cocktail sticks that were ubiquitous at parties of old?

    Just asking.
    They were better than the cheese footballs.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    I gave up on Wolf Hall after 150 pages. It's rare for me not to finish a book once I've started but I couldn't cope any more with the 'present in the past' and the peculiar use of personal pronouns. It was frustrating because I like historical novels, the period fascinates me and she is perfectly capable of writing decent prose. For some reason though she adopts these strange artificial mannerisms which distract from the story. I think her readership mistake the mannerism for 'Art'. Good luck to them.

    I guess they also take her 'contrarian' view of history as original and thoguht provoking. I just find it as superficial and contrived as the stylistic mannerisms.

    It's not for me.
    Literature is like all art - it's personal whether you like it. Or not.

    Nothing grates as much as some fool saying "You *must* like paintings by X".....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    RobD said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Damn, I thought it was a major new study about the health benefits of pineapple pizzas.
    Eating pineapple pizzas is the leading cause of Covid-19.

    Eating food that goes against all laws of man, God, and nature is how we got into this mess.
    Do you like those cheese cubes and pineapple bits on cocktail sticks that were ubiquitous at parties of old?

    Just asking.
    They were better than the cheese footballs.
    Managed to get hold of some of them last year. Nostalgia truly has much to answer for.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    I gave up on Wolf Hall after 150 pages. It's rare for me not to finish a book once I've started but I couldn't cope any more with the 'present in the past' and the peculiar use of personal pronouns. It was frustrating because I like historical novels, the period fascinates me and she is perfectly capable of writing decent prose. For some reason though she adopts these strange artificial mannerisms which distract from the story. I think her readership mistake the mannerism for 'Art'. Good luck to them.

    I guess they also take her 'contrarian' view of history as original and thoguht provoking. I just find it as superficial and contrived as the stylistic mannerisms.

    It's not for me.
    I'm glad you mentioned the personal pronoun thing, that was weird. Not as bad as the lack of speech marks in Normal People, and I don't think it impacted my opinion of the book, but it was noticable. But she must be doing something right, people love it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Blimey Johnson looks rough on BBC news. Totally clapped out.

    https://twitter.com/AngryScotland/status/1333901556392013826?s=19
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    RobD said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Damn, I thought it was a major new study about the health benefits of pineapple pizzas.
    Eating pineapple pizzas is the leading cause of Covid-19.

    Eating food that goes against all laws of man, God, and nature is how we got into this mess.
    Do you like those cheese cubes and pineapple bits on cocktail sticks that were ubiquitous at parties of old?

    Just asking.
    They were better than the cheese footballs.
    Managed to get hold of some of them last year. Nostalgia truly has much to answer for.
    Piece on the radio talking about all the old high street shops. Some classic names Richard Shops, etc.
  • Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...

    DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...
    NHS are second.

    (Care workers are first)
    We have been notified to expect vaccination within a week or so. The logistics of the Pfizer vaccine means that NHS are first, then primary care and social care.
    Makes sense if there are logistics issues.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on Mantel, No 3 is waiting there as a Christmas treat. The first two were fantastic.

    Same with The Testaments (waiting for Christmas).

    I thought that meant you weren't satisfied with the old and new testaments and we were expecting another soon, which would be quite the shake up for a lot of churches.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...

    DavidL said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    And then a massive roll out for the most vulnerable before Christmas so that they have had at least their first dose and get the second very early in the new year.
    NHS workers first I hope (and I say that a someone classed as "extremely vulnerable").
    And then teachers...
    NHS are second.

    (Care workers are first)
    We have been notified to expect vaccination within a week or so. The logistics of the Pfizer vaccine means that NHS are first, then primary care and social care.
    It also makes sense from a public health point of view, reducing the spread in hospitals by inoculating the people who interact with patients will help keep staff capacity up through the winter. Glad to hear you'll get vaccinated soon Foxy!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    Stocky said:

    RobD said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Damn, I thought it was a major new study about the health benefits of pineapple pizzas.
    Eating pineapple pizzas is the leading cause of Covid-19.

    Eating food that goes against all laws of man, God, and nature is how we got into this mess.
    Do you like those cheese cubes and pineapple bits on cocktail sticks that were ubiquitous at parties of old?

    Just asking.
    Mmm, and a nicely chilled Beaujolais? Or a Pale Ale?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,592

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    I gave up on Wolf Hall after 150 pages. It's rare for me not to finish a book once I've started but I couldn't cope any more with the 'present in the past' and the peculiar use of personal pronouns. It was frustrating because I like historical novels, the period fascinates me and she is perfectly capable of writing decent prose. For some reason though she adopts these strange artificial mannerisms which distract from the story. I think her readership mistake the mannerism for 'Art'. Good luck to them.

    I guess they also take her 'contrarian' view of history as original and thought provoking. I just find it as superficial and contrived as the stylistic mannerisms.

    It's not for me.
    Very long books aren't my cup of tea. About 300 pages is okay.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on Mantel, No 3 is waiting there as a Christmas treat. The first two were fantastic.

    Same with The Testaments (waiting for Christmas).

    I thought that meant you weren't satisfied with the old and new testaments and we were expecting another soon, which would be quite the shake up for a lot of churches.
    Two have caused quite enough problems without a third.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    FPT
    Hyufd said:
    'Given Glasgow has not had a Tory MP since 1979 and we have had 28 years of Tory government since and it voted Yes to independence even in 2014 when Scotland overall voted No, politically I am little bothered what Glasgow thinks and would of course never canvass there '

    I have to correct you there. Glasgow Hillhead was Tory -held until it fell to Roy Jenkins at the March 1982 by-election.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    RobD said:

    Approval for one of the vaccines.
    Damn, I thought it was a major new study about the health benefits of pineapple pizzas.
    Eating pineapple pizzas is the leading cause of Covid-19.

    Eating food that goes against all laws of man, God, and nature is how we got into this mess.
    Do you like those cheese cubes and pineapple bits on cocktail sticks that were ubiquitous at parties of old?

    Just asking.
    They were better than the cheese footballs.
    Managed to get hold of some of them last year. Nostalgia truly has much to answer for.
    Cheesy balls?

    Well people are showering less during lockdown.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on Mantel, No 3 is waiting there as a Christmas treat. The first two were fantastic.

    Same with The Testaments (waiting for Christmas).

    I thought that meant you weren't satisfied with the old and new testaments and we were expecting another soon, which would be quite the shake up for a lot of churches.
    Well its about time. I mean we have waited longer for that than the last volume of GoT and that's just ridiculous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    https://twitter.com/SJohnsonWPR/status/1333890843757907970?s=19

    Surely this is fraud by Sidney Powell?

    Surely she is setting herself up to be disbarred?

    Seems like quite a few lawyers would be treading the line between downright unethical behaviour with some of these lawsuits.
  • kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on Mantel, No 3 is waiting there as a Christmas treat. The first two were fantastic.

    Same with The Testaments (waiting for Christmas).

    I thought that meant you weren't satisfied with the old and new testaments and we were expecting another soon, which would be quite the shake up for a lot of churches.
    Isn’t that what the Book of Mormon is supposed to be?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on Mantel, No 3 is waiting there as a Christmas treat. The first two were fantastic.

    Same with The Testaments (waiting for Christmas).

    I thought that meant you weren't satisfied with the old and new testaments and we were expecting another soon, which would be quite the shake up for a lot of churches.
    Actually, I think I'm just describing the Book of Mormon?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Scott_xP said:
    Former cybersecurity chief hints at legal action against Trump attorney who said he should be ‘shot’
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/01/chris-krebs-trump-campaign-441724
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    I gave up on Wolf Hall after 150 pages. It's rare for me not to finish a book once I've started but I couldn't cope any more with the 'present in the past' and the peculiar use of personal pronouns. It was frustrating because I like historical novels, the period fascinates me and she is perfectly capable of writing decent prose. For some reason though she adopts these strange artificial mannerisms which distract from the story. I think her readership mistake the mannerism for 'Art'. Good luck to them.

    I guess they also take her 'contrarian' view of history as original and thought provoking. I just find it as superficial and contrived as the stylistic mannerisms.

    It's not for me.
    I was the same. It was just annoying.
  • kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on Mantel, No 3 is waiting there as a Christmas treat. The first two were fantastic.

    Same with The Testaments (waiting for Christmas).

    I thought that meant you weren't satisfied with the old and new testaments and we were expecting another soon, which would be quite the shake up for a lot of churches.
    Isn’t that what the Book of Mormon is supposed to be?
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on Mantel, No 3 is waiting there as a Christmas treat. The first two were fantastic.

    Same with The Testaments (waiting for Christmas).

    I thought that meant you weren't satisfied with the old and new testaments and we were expecting another soon, which would be quite the shake up for a lot of churches.
    Actually, I think I'm just describing the Book of Mormon?
    Snap!
  • kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    I gave up on Wolf Hall after 150 pages. It's rare for me not to finish a book once I've started but I couldn't cope any more with the 'present in the past' and the peculiar use of personal pronouns. It was frustrating because I like historical novels, the period fascinates me and she is perfectly capable of writing decent prose. For some reason though she adopts these strange artificial mannerisms which distract from the story. I think her readership mistake the mannerism for 'Art'. Good luck to them.

    I guess they also take her 'contrarian' view of history as original and thoguht provoking. I just find it as superficial and contrived as the stylistic mannerisms.

    It's not for me.
    I'm glad you mentioned the personal pronoun thing, that was weird. Not as bad as the lack of speech marks in Normal People, and I don't think it impacted my opinion of the book, but it was noticable. But she must be doing something right, people love it.
    It's also a great story - worth retelling if only as a warning to each rising generation of special advisers. There's even an apocryphal Shakespearean version (The history of Thomas Lord Cromwel) in the much-maligned Fourth Folio.
  • kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/SJohnsonWPR/status/1333890843757907970?s=19

    Surely this is fraud by Sidney Powell?

    Surely she is setting herself up to be disbarred?

    Seems like quite a few lawyers would be treading the line between downright unethical behaviour with some of these lawsuits.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgp33-EVqXk
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    I gave up on Wolf Hall after 150 pages. It's rare for me not to finish a book once I've started but I couldn't cope any more with the 'present in the past' and the peculiar use of personal pronouns. It was frustrating because I like historical novels, the period fascinates me and she is perfectly capable of writing decent prose. For some reason though she adopts these strange artificial mannerisms which distract from the story. I think her readership mistake the mannerism for 'Art'. Good luck to them.

    I guess they also take her 'contrarian' view of history as original and thought provoking. I just find it as superficial and contrived as the stylistic mannerisms.

    It's not for me.
    I was the same. It was just annoying.
    Are you saying that she, Mantel, wrote something you didn't like?
  • For anyone interested in the actual papers and rulings in the various legal cases: https://electioncases.osu.edu/
  • rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Oh gods, this means that idiot minister is more in tune with the public than me.

    Though I suppose there's a difference between perhaps they should, versus the idea it should be required.
    My eldest daughter thought it was completely true - so I gave her some hints and she is off reading real history now.

    If you use real names etc, the "fictional" disclaimer should be in large type.
    Pearl Harbor
    U-571
    Braveheart :lol:
    Anything by Philippa Gregory
    What about Hilary Mantel? The way people banged on about it I'd assumed Wolf Hall would be a tremendous read, but found it rather dull and lacking in character compared to others in the genre, so perhaps too much accuracy was the problem?

    I've enjoyed plenty of Conn Iggulden, but he doesn't even try for verisimilitude, and has now literally started writing fantasy fiction (really weirdly structured ones, too).
    The Mantel trilogy is seriously overrated: implausible as well as dull. Pat Barker’s Regeneration trilogy, on the other hand, is a thrilling mixture of history and fiction. It is a an epic treatment of the First World War that is also a profound exploration of masculinity and violence.
    Can't agree with you on the Wolf Hall trilogy, it's unbelievably good in my opinion. Although she needed a tougher editor for the third book. Also love the Crown, a real guilty pleasure.
    I just couldn't get into it. I got no real insight into the people, or feel for the period, it just felt like 'stuff happening'.

    What I did like about the latest (and possibly last) Shardlake book was that C J Samson had a 70 page essay at the end going indepth on the historiography of the events that formed the basis of the plot, well beyond your typical 'This is how it really went down' author's note at the end. Certainly not something wanted or needed in most cases, but interesting.

    Though I still think Cornwell put it best in one of his such notes, about how he made it up because 'fictional heroes need suitable employment'.
    I tried to read Wolf Hall, and failed.

    I may go back it, given how well regarded it is by *most* people whose opinions I hold in high regard.
    I gave up on Wolf Hall after 150 pages. It's rare for me not to finish a book once I've started but I couldn't cope any more with the 'present in the past' and the peculiar use of personal pronouns. It was frustrating because I like historical novels, the period fascinates me and she is perfectly capable of writing decent prose. For some reason though she adopts these strange artificial mannerisms which distract from the story. I think her readership mistake the mannerism for 'Art'. Good luck to them.

    I guess they also take her 'contrarian' view of history as original and thoguht provoking. I just find it as superficial and contrived as the stylistic mannerisms.

    It's not for me.
    Literature is like all art - it's personal whether you like it. Or not.

    Nothing grates as much as some fool saying "You *must* like paintings by X".....
    Nope, anyone who doesn't like Velasquez* can be consigned to the circle of hell reserved for Farage's tailor and every atom of Trump.

    *There are others but I'm trying not to be tedious.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited December 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Must be MHRA approval for the Pfizer vaccine, it's said to be coming any day now. That means the first people could be getting vaccinated by Thursday!
    Go go go go go...

    https://twitter.com/natashaloder/status/1333901257300389893?s=20
This discussion has been closed.