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Increased geography. Devolution, independence, and Brexit – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 17 in General
imageIncreased geography. Devolution, independence, and Brexit – politicalbetting.com

I have been a disappointment to many people.  One niche group emerged in 2012, when my previous firm, Pinsent Masons, merged with the largest Scottish firm McGrigors.  For some time afterwards, whenever I met one of my new Scottish partners, I could see the faint shrinking when they realised that, despite my given name, I’m as English as they come.  They were always kind to the afflicted, of course, but a sense of the closest kinship would take much more earning.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Top piece Alastair.
  • johntjohnt Posts: 52
    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.
  • isamisam Posts: 34,623
    Leavers this, leavers that.

    Alastair was undecided about which way to vote in the referendum when it was first called, along with a couple of others (TSE and Richard Nabavi I think). So much so, that if you fancied a treble on them all eventually backing Remain, bookmakers were offering odds of nearly 1.01
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,320
    edited November 17
    Getaway Trump only went and did it



    Chased down the favourite at the last.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631
    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    Scott_xP said:
    In the words of Father Jack:

    ‘SHUT THE FECK UP.’

    Now he looks dishonest as well stupid.

    He is, of course, but it’s not helpful to look it.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    FPT

    Scott_xP said:
    Was this drivel actually published in a newspaper? And he was paid for it!
    Scene - interior, London flat. The phone rings.
    CM: "Boris, hi, Charles here. Still waiting for your column, it was due by 8 this morning?"
    BJ: "Charlie hi waffwarwerra hi, what's that old chap?"
    CM: "The copy for this week's column, it's late. Heavy night last night, Boris?"
    BJ: "Yes, Charlie [sniffing sound]"
    CM: "You have written it, Boris, haven't you?"
    BJ: "Oh yes yes [sniffing again]. Tried to send it last night, bloody modem playing up I expect. I'll have it with you by 12. Bye"
    ...
    BJ: "Petronella! Get us an egg roll will you? I've got a shitting headache and a column to write.
    Right. Scotland. Hmmm. We'll start with 'Och aye' and see how it goes from there..."
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,365
    Leavers seem discomfited by this.

    Not this one.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778
    FPT
    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I agree with Johnson about devolution.

    He is stupid to say it , but I do agree with him. Tam Dalyell was right all along.
    People say that because devolution has not killed Scot Nattery it has failed. But what about the counterfactual of devolution NOT being granted to Scotland. Surely it's likely that if the demand for greater autonomy had been ignored the disaffection of Scots within the UK would have grown more rapidly than it has done. Perhaps devolution has been a "success" in that it has prolonged the Union for a few years. And those few years might have become decades were it not for the thing that has actually destroyed the Union. Which is not of course Scottish devolution. It's Brexit.
    There was no real sign in the late 1990s that in the absence of devolution the SNP were poised for a serious electoral breakthrough.
    Where were you at the time? I was here in Scotland and it was clear that the pressure was building. The Tories were terrified of it. There was something inexpressibly sad in Michael Forsyth walking up the High Street and Lawnmarket to the Castle in the rain behind a medaeval cesspit cover being sent back to Scotland from the Coronation Chair at Westminster Abbey. Tories giving up a central symbol of the glorious united nation unless they really felt they needed something to fob off?
  • eekeek Posts: 9,606
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    In the words of Father Jack:

    ‘SHUT THE FECK UP.’

    Now he looks dishonest as well stupid.

    He is, of course, but it’s not helpful to look it.
    The problem with being (and saying) all things to all people is eventually you are caught out and you become nothing to all people.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,205
    edited November 17
    At the last election our choice was roughly: Hardish Brexit + Boris (Tory); Another Referendum + Jezza (Labour); Remain (LD); Remain (SNP). Instead of offering a concerted gradualist soft Brexit the left/centre left offered a range of options which obliterated the opinions of the mostly moderate Brexity 52%. Which is as bad or worse than the stuff being offered to us now - which terrible though it is still offers a chance of a FTA with the EU.

    To win the Tories not only had to beat the left/centre left, it had to neutralise the Brexit party. The Tory's opponents had an open goal as the Tories were forced to the right and completely missed it. A point SKS has now conceded.

    That we are where we are is partly the fault of the Tories but the anti Brexit establishment carries huge responsibility too.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 62,626
    Here's Trump's other lawyer



    If Trump had got re-elected, people like this would have been heading to Federal courts, perhaps even SCOTUS. Four more years of Trump and Alito would look like a pretty centrist kind of judge.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,293
    There is a lesson to be learned from America here.
    If you insist on othering all those who disagree with you, one inevitably finds you have turned the majority against you.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,365
    Alastair writes as though the question of Scottish independence has only just appeared post-2016. It hasn't. I was thoroughly appalled at our politicians falling over themselves to keep Scotland in the UK in 2014. It's their decision, if they want to go their own way, let them.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778
    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    justin124 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I agree with Johnson about devolution.

    He is stupid to say it , but I do agree with him. Tam Dalyell was right all along.
    People say that because devolution has not killed Scot Nattery it has failed. But what about the counterfactual of devolution NOT being granted to Scotland. Surely it's likely that if the demand for greater autonomy had been ignored the disaffection of Scots within the UK would have grown more rapidly than it has done. Perhaps devolution has been a "success" in that it has prolonged the Union for a few years. And those few years might have become decades were it not for the thing that has actually destroyed the Union. Which is not of course Scottish devolution. It's Brexit.
    There was no real sign in the late 1990s that in the absence of devolution the SNP were poised for a serious electoral breakthrough.
    Where were you at the time? I was here in Scotland and it was clear that the pressure was building. The Tories were terrified of it. There was something inexpressibly sad in Michael Forsyth walking up the High Street and Lawnmarket to the Castle in the rain behind a medaeval cesspit cover being sent back to Scotland from the Coronation Chair at Westminster Abbey. Tories giving up a central symbol of the glorious united nation unless they really felt they needed something to fob off?
    PS Sorry - didn't mean to sound rude at the beginning. Quite unintentional.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,649

    Top piece Alastair.

    Is it worth a read?
  • "The question of kinship with the Scots is assuming a renewed significance in British politics. The Scots did not vote for Brexit. Nor did the Northern Irish. This has not stopped the UK government from pressing ahead with the hardest form of Brexit that it can contemplate, paying no heed to the wishes of the 48% who voted against it. Their supporters have spent the years since 2016 telling anyone who does not whole-heartedly pledge themselves to the most extreme Brexit that they are quislings, traitors and enemies of the people, threatening every national institution that they perceive as an impediment or a nest of enemies, from the BBC to the Church of England to the Supreme Court.

    No doubt by chance, there has been a steady rise in support in Scotland for independence in recent years. "

    The problem with this narrative is that support for Scottish secession was relatively stable in the aftermath of the EU referendum; in fact, if anything, support for secession actually fell, and didn't recover until mid 2018 while Theresa May was being hamstrung by Parliament. Even as late as early 2020, when the UK formally left the EU, No still had a substantial lead over Yes:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmoBo77XIAI00dl?format=png&name=4096x4096

    The current surge in support for secession has a lot more to do with the perceived incompetence of Johnson and the Westminster government than it does with Brexit - or we would have seen the surge four years ago.
  • Top piece Alastair.

    Is it worth a read?
    They always are.
  • In spite of alluding to the diversity of views in his paragraph on Brexit supporting young gay cyclists, as usual Alastair ruins his thread header by lumping all Leavers in together as if they all had the same views on matters both Brexit and non-Brexit related.

    There are plenty of Leavers, including a few on here, who are very happy with the idea of Scottish Independence and for thoroughly positive reasons. For us Scottish Independence is a natural and welcome consequence of Brexit and stems from the same arguments in favour of self determination as drove the desire to leave the EU. We are not Unionists - either of the EU or British variety and therefore see any move towards dissolution of the Union as a positive step.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,205
    edited November 17
    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

  • johntjohnt Posts: 52
    .
    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    Personally I think that is the wrong question. It is not about ‘is the union great’ it is about can something better be delivered. Brexit has put the people of Scotland in a corner and needing to make a decision. Do they work with 50 million English who appear to be interested in nothing but money and themselves or join with a group of 400 million Europeans who want to build a better continent.

    Unfortunately the current government in Westminster seem not to understand that choice.
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    In the words of Father Jack:

    ‘SHUT THE FECK UP.’

    Now he looks dishonest as well stupid.

    He is, of course, but it’s not helpful to look it.
    Trouble is that when he is quite that stupid and dishonest it is very difficult to hide it.
  • eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    In the words of Father Jack:

    ‘SHUT THE FECK UP.’

    Now he looks dishonest as well stupid.

    He is, of course, but it’s not helpful to look it.
    The problem with being (and saying) all things to all people is eventually you are caught out and you become nothing to all people.
    The curious thing about the Johnson ministry.

    It's not obvious when it will end (though the antics of the last week have moved the clock on there), but it is obvious that being finally caught out having promised different people different things will be how it ends.
  • johnt said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    Personally I think that is the wrong question. It is not about ‘is the union great’ it is about can something better be delivered. Brexit has put the people of Scotland in a corner and needing to make a decision. Do they work with 50 million English who appear to be interested in nothing but money and themselves or join with a group of 400 million Europeans who want to build a better continent.

    Unfortunately the current government in Westminster seem not to understand that choice.
    I think you will find that the majority of those 400 million Europeans are a very long way from wanting to build a better continent. Even many of their leaders are not interested in that. For most politicians this is just another way of exercising power and for most of the general public all they are interested in is what will make their own lives better. Relatively few people ever lead or even believe in political revolutions or movements and generally they are the first against the wall when it all goes wrong.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778
    edited November 17

    "The question of kinship with the Scots is assuming a renewed significance in British politics. The Scots did not vote for Brexit. Nor did the Northern Irish. This has not stopped the UK government from pressing ahead with the hardest form of Brexit that it can contemplate, paying no heed to the wishes of the 48% who voted against it. Their supporters have spent the years since 2016 telling anyone who does not whole-heartedly pledge themselves to the most extreme Brexit that they are quislings, traitors and enemies of the people, threatening every national institution that they perceive as an impediment or a nest of enemies, from the BBC to the Church of England to the Supreme Court.

    No doubt by chance, there has been a steady rise in support in Scotland for independence in recent years. "

    The problem with this narrative is that support for Scottish secession was relatively stable in the aftermath of the EU referendum; in fact, if anything, support for secession actually fell, and didn't recover until mid 2018 while Theresa May was being hamstrung by Parliament. Even as late as early 2020, when the UK formally left the EU, No still had a substantial lead over Yes:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmoBo77XIAI00dl?format=png&name=4096x4096

    The current surge in support for secession has a lot more to do with the perceived incompetence of Johnson and the Westminster government than it does with Brexit - or we would have seen the surge four years ago.

    That's Yougov only, is it not?

    https://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-the-in-a-scottish-independence-referendum-if-held-now-ask/?removed

    And you have to remember that (a) Brexit has n ot happened edit: in a very real sense, of practgical impact; and (b) is still crucially undefined. What is going to happen? Nobody knows.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631
    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Why does geology make it something of merit. China and russia are connected as a landmass . This is the sort of romanticised flummery I refer to.

    If you have actual practical reasons why the union is good for all people within it lets hear them. Don't tell me about history or geology
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 15,691
    algarkirk said:

    At the last election our choice was roughly: Hardish Brexit + Boris (Tory); Another Referendum + Jezza (Labour); Remain (LD); Remain (SNP). Instead of offering a concerted gradualist soft Brexit the left/centre left offered a range of options which obliterated the opinions of the mostly moderate Brexity 52%. Which is as bad or worse than the stuff being offered to us now - which terrible though it is still offers a chance of a FTA with the EU.

    To win the Tories not only had to beat the left/centre left, it had to neutralise the Brexit party. The Tory's opponents had an open goal as the Tories were forced to the right and completely missed it. A point SKS has now conceded.

    That we are where we are is partly the fault of the Tories but the anti Brexit establishment carries huge responsibility too.

    I agree with you about the foolish Remainer tactics. They went down the blind alley of Ref2 and let Johnson & Co have their wicked way. But this does not detract from the central truth that Brexit is a project of the Tory Party and they own it and all its consequences. If these end up being national impoverishment - economic and cultural - plus the end of the Union, this is on them and no-one else.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631
    johnt said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    Personally I think that is the wrong question. It is not about ‘is the union great’ it is about can something better be delivered. Brexit has put the people of Scotland in a corner and needing to make a decision. Do they work with 50 million English who appear to be interested in nothing but money and themselves or join with a group of 400 million Europeans who want to build a better continent.

    Unfortunately the current government in Westminster seem not to understand that choice.
    That is an argument for breaking the union. I was asking those in favour of the union what are the practicalities that makes it worthwhile for the man or woman in fife as much as the man or woman in basingstoke.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,205

    "The question of kinship with the Scots is assuming a renewed significance in British politics. The Scots did not vote for Brexit. Nor did the Northern Irish. This has not stopped the UK government from pressing ahead with the hardest form of Brexit that it can contemplate, paying no heed to the wishes of the 48% who voted against it. Their supporters have spent the years since 2016 telling anyone who does not whole-heartedly pledge themselves to the most extreme Brexit that they are quislings, traitors and enemies of the people, threatening every national institution that they perceive as an impediment or a nest of enemies, from the BBC to the Church of England to the Supreme Court.

    No doubt by chance, there has been a steady rise in support in Scotland for independence in recent years. "

    The problem with this narrative is that support for Scottish secession was relatively stable in the aftermath of the EU referendum; in fact, if anything, support for secession actually fell, and didn't recover until mid 2018 while Theresa May was being hamstrung by Parliament. Even as late as early 2020, when the UK formally left the EU, No still had a substantial lead over Yes:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmoBo77XIAI00dl?format=png&name=4096x4096

    The current surge in support for secession has a lot more to do with the perceived incompetence of Johnson and the Westminster government than it does with Brexit - or we would have seen the surge four years ago.

    The evidence that our government wants a deal with the EU is overwhelming. It is therefore absolutely untrue to say that Boris and co are aiming for the 'hardest possible Brexit'. A genuine hard Brexit is close to impossible now and would have needed a sort of determination that really did want to tell the 48% where to go.

    (For myself I don't agree with their policy - I am a 'Norway for Now' leaver and hope that Labour (and the SNP) will soon see its merits. It won't be before time.)

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  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Why does geology make it something of merit. China and russia are connected as a landmass . This is the sort of romanticised flummery I refer to.

    If you have actual practical reasons why the union is good for all people within it lets hear them. Don't tell me about history or geology
    I guess it's sometimes tuff to live together. But we should love each other, quartz and all.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631
    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,205
    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Why does geology make it something of merit. China and russia are connected as a landmass . This is the sort of romanticised flummery I refer to.

    If you have actual practical reasons why the union is good for all people within it lets hear them. Don't tell me about history or geology
    Thanks. I love the notion of a romanticised vision of a state running from Cape Town to Vladivostock via Paris, Pyongyang and Peshawar.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Woulodn't necessarily agree. There's a great deal to be said for William Smith-style scarp and dip scenery. Actually rather cheesed off our Somerset and Dorset autumn holiday didn't come off this year.

    (And it was the specification of the basalt being metamorphic that is hard to satisfy in the UK IIRC - dykes obviously don't count).
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    Geology matters a lot with all sorts of things, including the US electoral map...

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2020/11/03/how-us-presidential-elections-are-impacted-by-geology/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Why does geology make it something of merit. China and russia are connected as a landmass . This is the sort of romanticised flummery I refer to.

    If you have actual practical reasons why the union is good for all people within it lets hear them. Don't tell me about history or geology
    I guess it's sometimes tuff to live together. But we should love each other, quartz and all.
    I was at college with a Yorkshireman who alleged that it was romantic to woo the local lasses with statements that they had eyes like Millstone Grit.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    Geology matters a lot with all sorts of things, including the US electoral map...

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2020/11/03/how-us-presidential-elections-are-impacted-by-geology/
    So you're saying that rocks affect who gets on the slate?
  • Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Though much of Scotland is derived from Northern Russia and the Americas originally.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,205
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    At the last election our choice was roughly: Hardish Brexit + Boris (Tory); Another Referendum + Jezza (Labour); Remain (LD); Remain (SNP). Instead of offering a concerted gradualist soft Brexit the left/centre left offered a range of options which obliterated the opinions of the mostly moderate Brexity 52%. Which is as bad or worse than the stuff being offered to us now - which terrible though it is still offers a chance of a FTA with the EU.

    To win the Tories not only had to beat the left/centre left, it had to neutralise the Brexit party. The Tory's opponents had an open goal as the Tories were forced to the right and completely missed it. A point SKS has now conceded.

    That we are where we are is partly the fault of the Tories but the anti Brexit establishment carries huge responsibility too.

    I agree with you about the foolish Remainer tactics. They went down the blind alley of Ref2 and let Johnson & Co have their wicked way. But this does not detract from the central truth that Brexit is a project of the Tory Party and they own it and all its consequences. If these end up being national impoverishment - economic and cultural - plus the end of the Union, this is on them and no-one else.
    I think it may turn out to be more complicated than that. Brexit is the great political issue of the last decade. Other political parties don't live in a vacuum. They live to offer policies and outcomes about the here and now and the best possible futures. They have collectively - including the Tories - been sub-optimal in this respect, especially in 2019 when the offering in a truly important General Election was second rate.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778
    edited November 17
    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Why does geology make it something of merit. China and russia are connected as a landmass . This is the sort of romanticised flummery I refer to.

    If you have actual practical reasons why the union is good for all people within it lets hear them. Don't tell me about history or geology
    [deleted - wrong post]
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    Geology matters a lot with all sorts of things, including the US electoral map...

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2020/11/03/how-us-presidential-elections-are-impacted-by-geology/
    https://www.nature.scot/landforms-and-geology/scotlands-rocks-landforms-and-soils/rocks-and-minerals/how-scotlands-geological-foundations-came-together/collision-england
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778
    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    Geology matters a lot with all sorts of things, including the US electoral map...

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2020/11/03/how-us-presidential-elections-are-impacted-by-geology/
    https://www.nature.scot/landforms-and-geology/scotlands-rocks-landforms-and-soils/rocks-and-minerals/how-scotlands-geological-foundations-came-together/collision-england
    Whence the Border Reivers.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Though much of Scotland is derived from Northern Russia and the Americas originally.
    I was thinking more of the bits the correct side of the Tamar :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286
    edited November 17

    We were talking about English devolution earlier.

    The current system - even if there is no clamour for a different settlement - infantilises political debate and retards economic growth.

    Such things are routinely done at local level, so I don't see the issue. That a Westminster politician blundered his way in doesn't suggest local areas dont have such authority.
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Chalk and clay are the only suitable things to be beneath one's feet.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Why does geology make it something of merit. China and russia are connected as a landmass . This is the sort of romanticised flummery I refer to.

    If you have actual practical reasons why the union is good for all people within it lets hear them. Don't tell me about history or geology
    I guess it's sometimes tuff to live together. But we should love each other, quartz and all.
    I was at college with a Yorkshireman who alleged that it was romantic to woo the local lasses with statements that they had eyes like Millstone Grit.
    he sounds pretty smooth
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631
    kle4 said:

    We were talking about English devolution earlier.

    The current system - even if there is no clamour for a different settlement - infantilises political debate and retards economic growth.

    Such things are routinely done at local level, so I don't see the issue. That a Westminster politician blundered his way in doesn't suggest local areas dont have such authority.
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Chalk and clay are the only suitable things to be beneath one's feet.
    If your feet are cloven and you have an ovine nature
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    kle4 said:

    We were talking about English devolution earlier.

    The current system - even if there is no clamour for a different settlement - infantilises political debate and retards economic growth.

    Such things are routinely done at local level, so I don't see the issue. That a Westminster politician blundered his way in doesn't suggest local areas dont have such authority.
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Chalk and clay are the only suitable things to be beneath one's feet.
    you've lost your marbles
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    Bozo’s Tories are fools. They have ploughed ahead, determined to disregard any concerns raised by any of the other UK nations about their ideological obsession.

    The fact that the clown is now flailing around trying to pin the blame on Blair and the events of nearly two decades ago for the consequences of his own career-obsessed decisions much more recently, is all the evidence we need that he knows the damage that he has done.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 21,937
    edited November 17
    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Woulodn't necessarily agree. There's a great deal to be said for William Smith-style scarp and dip scenery. Actually rather cheesed off our Somerset and Dorset autumn holiday didn't come off this year.

    (And it was the specification of the basalt being metamorphic that is hard to satisfy in the UK IIRC - dykes obviously don't count).
    Basalts cannot, by definition, be metamorphic. Depending on the degree of metamorphism they would be Blueschists, Greenschists, Amphibolites or Gneisses.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Why does geology make it something of merit. China and russia are connected as a landmass . This is the sort of romanticised flummery I refer to.

    If you have actual practical reasons why the union is good for all people within it lets hear them. Don't tell me about history or geology
    I guess it's sometimes tuff to live together. But we should love each other, quartz and all.
    I was at college with a Yorkshireman who alleged that it was romantic to woo the local lasses with statements that they had eyes like Millstone Grit.
    He must have been impressively chaste all the way through his College years.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Woulodn't necessarily agree. There's a great deal to be said for William Smith-style scarp and dip scenery. Actually rather cheesed off our Somerset and Dorset autumn holiday didn't come off this year.

    (And it was the specification of the basalt being metamorphic that is hard to satisfy in the UK IIRC - dykes obviously don't count).
    Basalts cannot, by definition, be metamorphic. Depending on the degree of metamorphism they would be Blueschists, Greenschists, Amphibolites or Gneisses.
    See, I didn't respond to the "metamorphic basalt" thing because I thought it was a... trap?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Woulodn't necessarily agree. There's a great deal to be said for William Smith-style scarp and dip scenery. Actually rather cheesed off our Somerset and Dorset autumn holiday didn't come off this year.

    (And it was the specification of the basalt being metamorphic that is hard to satisfy in the UK IIRC - dykes obviously don't count).
    Basalts cannot, by definition, be metamorphic. Depending on the degree of metamorphism they would be Blueschists, Greenschists, Amphibolites or Gneisses.
    Exactly. Greenstone belts, aren't they?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 15,691

    In spite of alluding to the diversity of views in his paragraph on Brexit supporting young gay cyclists, as usual Alastair ruins his thread header by lumping all Leavers in together as if they all had the same views on matters both Brexit and non-Brexit related.

    There are plenty of Leavers, including a few on here, who are very happy with the idea of Scottish Independence and for thoroughly positive reasons. For us Scottish Independence is a natural and welcome consequence of Brexit and stems from the same arguments in favour of self determination as drove the desire to leave the EU. We are not Unionists - either of the EU or British variety and therefore see any move towards dissolution of the Union as a positive step.

    Sure. There are Leavers who welcome the breakup of the UK. There's you. There's Philip Thompson. I bet there are others. But the drivers of the Brexit project in the Tory Party and this Tory government - Johnson, Gove, the ERG - are not of that mind. So if it is the case that Brexit drives Scotland out, this will be an example of irony of the bitter variety. I don't think your observation - whilst true - changes that one iota.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631
    Getting away from rocks for a while. My view on brexit and independence are both formed by my view that democracy works well up to certain numbers of population. I am intensely relaxed about policy being formed at the lowest level possible and I would for example have no problem with a UK made up of 50 federalised counties or so. Each setting their own policies for most things and raising their own revenues.

    In a democracy each vote has a value. The bigger the demos the lower the value. This is why we find people believing that their vote does not matter.

    The overarching federalised part only handling trade, foreign policy and defence.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    kinabalu said:

    In spite of alluding to the diversity of views in his paragraph on Brexit supporting young gay cyclists, as usual Alastair ruins his thread header by lumping all Leavers in together as if they all had the same views on matters both Brexit and non-Brexit related.

    There are plenty of Leavers, including a few on here, who are very happy with the idea of Scottish Independence and for thoroughly positive reasons. For us Scottish Independence is a natural and welcome consequence of Brexit and stems from the same arguments in favour of self determination as drove the desire to leave the EU. We are not Unionists - either of the EU or British variety and therefore see any move towards dissolution of the Union as a positive step.

    Sure. There are Leavers who welcome the breakup of the UK. There's you. There's Philip Thompson. I bet there are others. But the drivers of the Brexit project in the Tory Party and this Tory government - Johnson, Gove, the ERG - are not of that mind. So if it is the case that Brexit drives Scotland out, this will be an example of irony of the bitter variety. I don't think your observation - whilst true - changes that one iota.
    Then of course there’s Hyufd. Who is a Remainer of such strength of feeling he wants to use force to preserve the Union....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Woulodn't necessarily agree. There's a great deal to be said for William Smith-style scarp and dip scenery. Actually rather cheesed off our Somerset and Dorset autumn holiday didn't come off this year.

    (And it was the specification of the basalt being metamorphic that is hard to satisfy in the UK IIRC - dykes obviously don't count).
    Basalts cannot, by definition, be metamorphic. Depending on the degree of metamorphism they would be Blueschists, Greenschists, Amphibolites or Gneisses.
    See, I didn't respond to the "metamorphic basalt" thing because I thought it was a... trap?
    Absolutely. I mean, everyone here saw through the classic 'metamorphic basalt' dodge, it's a bedrock gag.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    We were talking about English devolution earlier.

    The current system - even if there is no clamour for a different settlement - infantilises political debate and retards economic growth.

    Such things are routinely done at local level, so I don't see the issue. That a Westminster politician blundered his way in doesn't suggest local areas dont have such authority.
    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Chalk and clay are the only suitable things to be beneath one's feet.
    If your feet are cloven and you have an ovine nature
    Most do out here in the shires.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    kle4 said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Woulodn't necessarily agree. There's a great deal to be said for William Smith-style scarp and dip scenery. Actually rather cheesed off our Somerset and Dorset autumn holiday didn't come off this year.

    (And it was the specification of the basalt being metamorphic that is hard to satisfy in the UK IIRC - dykes obviously don't count).
    Basalts cannot, by definition, be metamorphic. Depending on the degree of metamorphism they would be Blueschists, Greenschists, Amphibolites or Gneisses.
    See, I didn't respond to the "metamorphic basalt" thing because I thought it was a... trap?
    Absolutely. I mean, everyone here saw through the classic 'metamorphic basalt' dodge, it's a bedrock gag.
    I felt the problem was it interrupted the flow of the puns.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,294
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Why does geology make it something of merit. China and russia are connected as a landmass . This is the sort of romanticised flummery I refer to.

    If you have actual practical reasons why the union is good for all people within it lets hear them. Don't tell me about history or geology
    I guess it's sometimes tuff to live together. But we should love each other, quartz and all.
    I was at college with a Yorkshireman who alleged that it was romantic to woo the local lasses with statements that they had eyes like Millstone Grit.
    He must have been impressively chaste all the way through his College years.
    That he was looking at her eyes was enough to put him in the top tier of local romantics.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,778
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Woulodn't necessarily agree. There's a great deal to be said for William Smith-style scarp and dip scenery. Actually rather cheesed off our Somerset and Dorset autumn holiday didn't come off this year.

    (And it was the specification of the basalt being metamorphic that is hard to satisfy in the UK IIRC - dykes obviously don't count).
    Basalts cannot, by definition, be metamorphic. Depending on the degree of metamorphism they would be Blueschists, Greenschists, Amphibolites or Gneisses.
    See, I didn't respond to the "metamorphic basalt" thing because I thought it was a... trap?
    Absolutely. I mean, everyone here saw through the classic 'metamorphic basalt' dodge, it's a bedrock gag.
    I felt the problem was it interrupted the flow of the puns.
    Yes, an unconformity in the sequence.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,294
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    Where I live the rocks under my feet are permian red sandstone. I want nothing to do with those bastards who live over igneous precambrian basalt.
    That's a bit hard on the Laplanders. But very inclusive from an Isles of Britain and Ireland sense, innit?
    The best bits of the british isles are built on igneous and metamorphic rock just saying...
    Woulodn't necessarily agree. There's a great deal to be said for William Smith-style scarp and dip scenery. Actually rather cheesed off our Somerset and Dorset autumn holiday didn't come off this year.

    (And it was the specification of the basalt being metamorphic that is hard to satisfy in the UK IIRC - dykes obviously don't count).
    Basalts cannot, by definition, be metamorphic. Depending on the degree of metamorphism they would be Blueschists, Greenschists, Amphibolites or Gneisses.
    Exactly. Greenstone belts, aren't they?
    i can't build on that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 38,315
    kinabalu said:

    In spite of alluding to the diversity of views in his paragraph on Brexit supporting young gay cyclists, as usual Alastair ruins his thread header by lumping all Leavers in together as if they all had the same views on matters both Brexit and non-Brexit related.

    There are plenty of Leavers, including a few on here, who are very happy with the idea of Scottish Independence and for thoroughly positive reasons. For us Scottish Independence is a natural and welcome consequence of Brexit and stems from the same arguments in favour of self determination as drove the desire to leave the EU. We are not Unionists - either of the EU or British variety and therefore see any move towards dissolution of the Union as a positive step.

    Sure. There are Leavers who welcome the breakup of the UK. There's you. There's Philip Thompson. I bet there are others. But the drivers of the Brexit project in the Tory Party and this Tory government - Johnson, Gove, the ERG - are not of that mind. So if it is the case that Brexit drives Scotland out, this will be an example of irony of the bitter variety. I don't think your observation - whilst true - changes that one iota.
    Neither am I. There are Leavers like me and DavidL who are passionate Unionists, and I bet there are others on this site too.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 38,315
    edited November 17
    I really want to find this Brexit-supporting young gay cycling Yorkshireman and set-up an introduction with Alastair now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 62,626
    Just extended a bit on Biden winning the popular vote. Paddy Power's credit score is a bigger worry than the actual bet at this point.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631

    kinabalu said:

    In spite of alluding to the diversity of views in his paragraph on Brexit supporting young gay cyclists, as usual Alastair ruins his thread header by lumping all Leavers in together as if they all had the same views on matters both Brexit and non-Brexit related.

    There are plenty of Leavers, including a few on here, who are very happy with the idea of Scottish Independence and for thoroughly positive reasons. For us Scottish Independence is a natural and welcome consequence of Brexit and stems from the same arguments in favour of self determination as drove the desire to leave the EU. We are not Unionists - either of the EU or British variety and therefore see any move towards dissolution of the Union as a positive step.

    Sure. There are Leavers who welcome the breakup of the UK. There's you. There's Philip Thompson. I bet there are others. But the drivers of the Brexit project in the Tory Party and this Tory government - Johnson, Gove, the ERG - are not of that mind. So if it is the case that Brexit drives Scotland out, this will be an example of irony of the bitter variety. I don't think your observation - whilst true - changes that one iota.
    Neither am I. There are Leavers like me and DavidL who are passionate Unionists, and I bet there are others on this site too.
    Perhaps you would care to have a stab at my question. What actual practical reasons are there for union? Ones that a man from dumfries and a man from uxbridge would nod their heads and go "The man has a point"
  • I really want to find this Brexit-supporting young gay cycling Yorkshireman and set-up an introduction with Alastair now.

    Alastair's partner might have a few objections to that.
  • To oppose Scottish Independence but support Brexit is an oxymoron
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631

    I really want to find this Brexit-supporting young gay cycling Yorkshireman and set-up an introduction with Alastair now.

    Is alistair not partnered?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 15,691
    edited November 17
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    At the last election our choice was roughly: Hardish Brexit + Boris (Tory); Another Referendum + Jezza (Labour); Remain (LD); Remain (SNP). Instead of offering a concerted gradualist soft Brexit the left/centre left offered a range of options which obliterated the opinions of the mostly moderate Brexity 52%. Which is as bad or worse than the stuff being offered to us now - which terrible though it is still offers a chance of a FTA with the EU.

    To win the Tories not only had to beat the left/centre left, it had to neutralise the Brexit party. The Tory's opponents had an open goal as the Tories were forced to the right and completely missed it. A point SKS has now conceded.

    That we are where we are is partly the fault of the Tories but the anti Brexit establishment carries huge responsibility too.

    I agree with you about the foolish Remainer tactics. They went down the blind alley of Ref2 and let Johnson & Co have their wicked way. But this does not detract from the central truth that Brexit is a project of the Tory Party and they own it and all its consequences. If these end up being national impoverishment - economic and cultural - plus the end of the Union, this is on them and no-one else.
    I think it may turn out to be more complicated than that. Brexit is the great political issue of the last decade. Other political parties don't live in a vacuum. They live to offer policies and outcomes about the here and now and the best possible futures. They have collectively - including the Tories - been sub-optimal in this respect, especially in 2019 when the offering in a truly important General Election was second rate.
    It is complicated. Absolutely it is. And we can legitimately analyze and discuss all the actors and events that combined to bring us here - a landslide Tory government under Boris Johnson enacting this version of Brexit. But the project and its consequences are theirs. This is the point I'm making and the complexity of life and politics does not change it. Brexit belongs to the Leaver politicians in power. Johnson. Gove. The ERG. All those guys. They got their way and they own it now. When it goes tits up and they try and deflect blame onto others we must reply (at the ballot box) with a resounding "F off with all that. You said it would be great and it's crap. Bye." If we don't we've lost our self-respect imo.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885

    To oppose Scottish Independence but support Brexit is an oxymoron

    When it comes to Johnson, there are many descriptions that are apt, possibly including ‘moron’ but certainly ‘couldn’t be more wrong.’
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,995
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    In spite of alluding to the diversity of views in his paragraph on Brexit supporting young gay cyclists, as usual Alastair ruins his thread header by lumping all Leavers in together as if they all had the same views on matters both Brexit and non-Brexit related.

    There are plenty of Leavers, including a few on here, who are very happy with the idea of Scottish Independence and for thoroughly positive reasons. For us Scottish Independence is a natural and welcome consequence of Brexit and stems from the same arguments in favour of self determination as drove the desire to leave the EU. We are not Unionists - either of the EU or British variety and therefore see any move towards dissolution of the Union as a positive step.

    Sure. There are Leavers who welcome the breakup of the UK. There's you. There's Philip Thompson. I bet there are others. But the drivers of the Brexit project in the Tory Party and this Tory government - Johnson, Gove, the ERG - are not of that mind. So if it is the case that Brexit drives Scotland out, this will be an example of irony of the bitter variety. I don't think your observation - whilst true - changes that one iota.
    Then of course there’s Hyufd. Who is a Remainer of such strength of feeling he wants to use force to preserve the Union....
    Forcing us to listen to his selective use of subsamples and the awesome power of Unionist tactical voting you mean?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 4,396
    A Wall Street quant on his betting on the presidential election

    https://nickyoder.com/in-defense-of-polling/

    Interesting anyway, and contains the nugget that "Exactly 50% of voters had supported Kennedy for President in 1960, but asked after his assassination in 1963, 65% of voters claimed to have voted for Kennedy."

    The latest polling shows 38% of respondents saying Leave was the right decision, and you can bet your bottom dollar that anything up to half of them were whistling in the dark on the basis that it's over six weeks before it turns from a potential into an actual disaster, and who knows what might turn up in six weeks? When nothing does, their rage at Johnson is not going to be tempered by the fact that this is what they voted for. In practice I would expect this to translate into an increase in English support for Scottish independence, on the basis that it makes sense for anyone with access to a lifeboat, to use it.
  • Still no covid data today?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 15,691

    kinabalu said:

    In spite of alluding to the diversity of views in his paragraph on Brexit supporting young gay cyclists, as usual Alastair ruins his thread header by lumping all Leavers in together as if they all had the same views on matters both Brexit and non-Brexit related.

    There are plenty of Leavers, including a few on here, who are very happy with the idea of Scottish Independence and for thoroughly positive reasons. For us Scottish Independence is a natural and welcome consequence of Brexit and stems from the same arguments in favour of self determination as drove the desire to leave the EU. We are not Unionists - either of the EU or British variety and therefore see any move towards dissolution of the Union as a positive step.

    Sure. There are Leavers who welcome the breakup of the UK. There's you. There's Philip Thompson. I bet there are others. But the drivers of the Brexit project in the Tory Party and this Tory government - Johnson, Gove, the ERG - are not of that mind. So if it is the case that Brexit drives Scotland out, this will be an example of irony of the bitter variety. I don't think your observation - whilst true - changes that one iota.
    Neither am I. There are Leavers like me and DavidL who are passionate Unionists, and I bet there are others on this site too.
    I'd say you are probably more typical of Leave opinion in this respect than the two posters I quoted. Brexit is a project of the Conservative and Unionist Party after all.
  • Corbyn is back in Labour!

    Per Sky News
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631

    Corbyn is back in Labour!

    Per Sky News

    Crosses labour of the list of parties to vote for again
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 15,691
    Pulpstar said:

    Just extended a bit on Biden winning the popular vote. Paddy Power's credit score is a bigger worry than the actual bet at this point.

    Yep - you have PP credit risk but ZERO market risk.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 10,806
    Ferret admitted back into the sack.



    Not a great move for Labour.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,995
    BJ speaking for most Scots didn't last long


  • Welcome home Jeremy!

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    (CNN) President Donald Trump lost the presidential election 10 days ago. Since then, he's done next to nothing -- at least publicly -- to suggest he plans to continue doing the job in any serious manner through January 20.

    Trump has no public events on his schedule Tuesday, the 10th time since the election that's been the case, according to CNN's Kevin Liptak. And, as CNN's Kaitlan Collins pointed out, it's been two weeks since the President last took any questions from the reporters who cover him.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631
    dr_spyn said:

    Ferret admitted back into the sack.



    Not a great move for Labour.
    An apology owed to ferrets maybe as they are loyal,cuddly and useful. Not three words most would apply to Mr Corbyn apart from strange girls in Swindon
  • Jezza reinstated....tough on antisemites, tough on the causes of antisemitism...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,320
    Pagan2 said:

    I really want to find this Brexit-supporting young gay cycling Yorkshireman and set-up an introduction with Alastair now.

    Is alistair not partnered?
    I am.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    dr_spyn said:

    Ferret admitted back into the sack.



    Not a great move for Labour.
    I really think that is unwise. For one thing, it suggests they’re frightened of his supporters - well, he does have some scary and nasty people behind him, but is it wise to underline this and the power they still have when Labour need to move on. But it also suggests that he can openly dispute established facts if they are embarrassing and be a Labour MP, and at a time when we’re getting rid of the arch fake news merchant that is to say the least unfortunate.

    I think had I been in their shoes I would have readmitted him only if he had agreed to take the Chiltern Hundreds first.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 30,459
    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    On your bike, we are off to join the EU shortly. You boys can play Billy No Mates as long as you like.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,320
    Very disappointed to find out to run a google survey you have to setup a business account. You can't just pay for one from your regular Google play account.

    Sad.
  • 19 days....not even pretendy punishment where you get sidelined for a few months but to all intents and purposes you are still same old same old.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,631
    malcolmg said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    johnt said:

    Exceedingly well put Alastair. The UK is being driven apart by the hard line minority and it will result in the end of the union and a greatly diminished England as well. We are becoming a global irrelevance being driven by a clique of king Canute's who are arguing that in the end the tide of the modern world will understand that England is the centre of the universe and everything will have to bend to our will. I have no idea why the Scottish would want to stay in a union which appears to be grounded in an understanding of the world which is 150 years out of date.

    There are quite a few on here that seem to like the union and would be disappointed if it ended. I have yet however to hear them advance good reasons for why they think the union is great. It all seems to be we have been a single nation since....(pick start date of your choice). The same mistake remainers made during the referendum. It was all dire warnings about what would occur if we left with no praise for the practicalities of the eu merely flummery like the eu brought peace to europe
    The merits of the Great Britain union are formed by geology and found by looking at a map. The merits of united Ireland are discovered in the same way. The present UK, partly based on a mixture of ancient imperialism and religious nonsense, ought to be a gateway to either two states called, respectively, Britain and Ireland, or one state called Britain and Ireland.

    If people could stop squabbling about trivia now would be an excellent time to sort it. The guns have been put away in Ireland, and the sense in Britain of sharing a single island is palpable. Go for it.

    On your bike, we are off to join the EU shortly. You boys can play Billy No Mates as long as you like.
    Is not one of the requirements of joining the eu joining the euro and the need to have an independent currency and bank first. I support 100% scottish independence but I do think that thinking you are going to be back in the eu the moment you gain independence is somewhat of a pipe dream
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