An extension is the path of least resistance. Johnson just needs to make it look like the EU has backed down.
Get 'No Change But With The Option For Future Divergence' Brexit Done!
It's always been the case that change would be incremental over the future. Remember pretty much the entire body of EU law was adopted as domestic law as part of the Withdrawal Act.
It's having the option for future divergence, unilaterally controlled by our sovereign Parliament, that is the key issue.
If the option to diverge is more important than diverging it follows with similar cast-iron logic that the option to leave was more important than leaving. The option to leave was the important thing. Which we had. We had the option to leave. We demonstrated this by doing so. But we did not need to prove it. It was always clear that we could leave. And given we could we did not need to. This is maths not politics. Brexit = Waste of Time. QED.
No, because the option to diverge will be followed by increasing amounts of actual divergence. Some have already been announced that will apply from 1/1/21 and more will follow as time goes on.
So yes the option to diverge is followed up with actual divergence. The option to leave is followed up with actually leaving. Maths not politics. Your maths. QED, I win.
You said having the option to diverge is the key thing not the actual divergence. That cannot be unsaid now you realize the logic of it takes you to a place you find awkward. PB debate doesn't work that way.
Yes the option to diverge is key.
It will be followed by actual divergence but if you're not happy with the actual divergence you can reverse it by electing a new government. It's called taking back control.
The right to diverge is more important than what is actually done with that right. It is saying democracy is more important than any law passed under the democracy.
An extension is the path of least resistance. Johnson just needs to make it look like the EU has backed down.
Get 'No Change But With The Option For Future Divergence' Brexit Done!
It's always been the case that change would be incremental over the future. Remember pretty much the entire body of EU law was adopted as domestic law as part of the Withdrawal Act.
It's having the option for future divergence, unilaterally controlled by our sovereign Parliament, that is the key issue.
If the option to diverge is more important than diverging it follows with similar cast-iron logic that the option to leave was more important than leaving. The option to leave was the important thing. Which we had. We had the option to leave. We demonstrated this by doing so. But we did not need to prove it. It was always clear that we could leave. And given we could we did not need to. This is maths not politics. Brexit = Waste of Time. QED.
No, because the option to diverge will be followed by increasing amounts of actual divergence. Some have already been announced that will apply from 1/1/21 and more will follow as time goes on.
So yes the option to diverge is followed up with actual divergence. The option to leave is followed up with actually leaving. Maths not politics. Your maths. QED, I win.
You said having the option to diverge is the key thing not the actual divergence. That cannot be unsaid now you realize the logic of it takes you to a place you find awkward. PB debate doesn't work that way.
Its the right to have babies even if we can't have babies. That has been Philip's position for a while now.
We don't need to worry about the vaccine - supplies will be flown in. It's not vaccine that we need to be concerned about, its food...
Food is OK. We can all eat the mountains of fish that we will no longer be able to export.
Fortunately, on my lonely windswept and very rainy hillside, there are lots of sheep and farmers with guns plus sheepdogs to catch them all. And cows.
And if it all becomes too much a walk into the cold Irish Sea at night is the quickest way of ending it all.
Don't even joke about it please.
There is never a day so long or so bad that it doesn't draw to a close, and the same goes for longer episodes. The sun will still come up in the morning, and life goes on.
A cop-out by Mrs Tice? It must already be a done deal
She's a contraindicator.
Expecting to find out what's happening from her is like asking Laura Pidcock her opinion.
Laura Pidcock, as far as I am aware, does not share pillow talk with Richard "Mr Brexit" Tice.
You missed the point.
Tice/Oaleshott have no greater insight into what is going on than other fruitcakes, nuts and loons like Pidcock etc.
Her ramblings are meaningless.
No I didn't!
I look forward to you defending Johnson's inspirational wisdom in calling for a Covid-19 justified transition extension when Boris makes the announcement.
A transition to a defined endpoint, a genuine transition or implementation period is entirely reasonable. But then the negotiations will have finished.
An extension without defining the end point is insanity and I will not support that.
And yet the UK government has repeatedly said "we must have a deal by X or we will call off the talks and prepare for no deal". X has variously been July, the end of the Summer, 15 October...
And yet, he's never pushed the button. Never said to the UK, "Stiffen the sinews, folks, this is what we need to do." Despite the fact that the more prep, the better. That should tell you something.
It certainly does. It confirms that there is no intention at all to do no deal. Whatever the theoretical merits it risks irrecoverable political disaster, including factory closures, food queues and all that, whereas any deal of any sort gives Boris until 2024 to recover his position. That's a long time when a week is a long time.
I agree. This transparent nonsense from No 10 that Johnson is the "hardman" on Brexit made me smile. They've very little left in their hand.
If I were the EU I would say "If you re-introduce the Internal Markets Bill with Articles 5 and 6 still in it, the talks are immediately off. Period." Cripes.
I'd follow it through (if Ireland are prepared to) and bear a month of chaos in January until the UK come back to the table, cap in hand, and minus Articles 5 and 6. A salutary lesson.
Unwise. As I've said before, my reading of the dynamic is that Brexit Britain is basically a teenage strop. They want to leave home because the rules are like so lame and they're not respected for their maturity, but their version of leaving home means don't touch their bedroom and of course they're keeping their keys and might be back for Sunday Lunch unless they get a better offer.
In that bit of psychodrama, the worst thing to do is to bring it to a head. That's what Kevin wants- someone to blame. So the EU's best plan is roughly what they're doing, which is to wait. Like wise grownups. They'll be fine whatever.
It's as if EU trade negotiators know what they're doing.
Whereas I think Brexit Britain is the UK as a fully mature adult getting it's own mortgage and own home and will settle down on its own. With Remainers like yourself acting terrified like it's impossible for the UK to have its own home and pay its own way.
It is the same sort of ridiculous nonsense we see with Scottish independence debate. That Scotland is too wee and too poor to be a developed independent nation when it's the same size as other independent states it neighbours across Scandinavia etc
The UK is an established G7 major economy. Out of 200 economies across the globe we are in the top 7. We are not "Kevin".
Then the UK government should stop acting like Kevin.
The EU have made an offer for a future trade deal. The UK doesn't like it. Oh well. Walk then.
Don't repudiate agreements that this UK government signed less than a year ago.
I do think we're doing a damn silly thing. But that's democracy. What we're talking about now is the silly, potentially harmful way that Johnson and co are insisting on doing it.
Yes, Desert Island Discs this morning was quite interesting. Although with the precision of a barrister, it was only described as a flat above a a "massage parlour" that operated "interesting hours".
Keir Starmer came across well throughout. Those listening should have warmed to him, if they haven't already.
Very impressive. Managed to make every track tell without it looking like he was doing a box ticking exercise. The favoured technique of most politicians. It was also pleasantly unsentimental despite perhaps one or two too many mentions of his wife.
I thought Racing Point played it fairly astutely in tactical terms, to be fair. They had two cars in the fight, they split the strategy to try and cover both bases. When they pitted Stroll for new inters a lot of other teams had done that in the preceding laps so it wasn't a bad shout, it just didn't work for them.
Their problem was more that they had a very fast car at the wettest part and a not so competitive car when it dried out, so they just needed a bit more rain from the mid-race on.
They might have had a 2-3 if they hadn't pitted Stroll but they weren't going to win once Hamilton got the pace he had on the worn inters.
I also believe such disruptions are less likely...
Do you believe in the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster too?
Just because you believe something does not mean that reality will listen and obey.
Its alt-fact lunacy. *Any* delay at all vs the current c. 2mins crossing time creates a huge blockage which gums the whole thing completely. The new computer system to manage customs doesn't exist. The old computer system can't handle the number of transactions. The people needed to process the transactions on the computer system that either doesn't yet exist or can't handle them don't exist.
On 1st January 2021 we either maintain the status quo. Or everything stops. What Philip is saying is literal wishful thinking that is demolished by the facts on the ground and not shared by anyone who is actually involved in the actual business of logistics.
What I'm saying is shared by people in the actual business of logistics though.
Plenty of people in the actual business have gone on TV and said eg for major grocery retailers that they are confident they can cope and will have food on the shelves either way even if there is some disruption.
Please quote anyone in the actual business saying their actual business is going to collapse and not cope? Because I've not seen one person say that yet besides terrified scaremongers.
Is the sky green over your head? Sainsbury's. This Tuesday. At their annual trade conference. "We don't know how we're going to trade on 1st January. There is no agreement across the EU, which affects our supply and logistics, nor are there trade agreements with most of the rest of the world".
Over in Norniron - which is the UK despite Shagger not thinking it is - all of the major UK supermarkets are warning shoppers that literally thousands of products may be unavailable due to the technical challenge of trying to import short life fresh food through the GB/NI border. Remember that the UK government cannot tell Sainsbury's or any of the rest of them what paperwork they will need to ship GB to NI.
Any disruption. At all. And everything stops. That is reality. According to the people on the ground.
Saying they don't know how they're going to trade is not saying they won't be able to trade.
Indeed. There is still hope that the UK caves and the status quo continues. Otherwise they have already laid out what will happen. Nothing - as in food not being delivered to shops as they don't have any to deliver.
As always I am sure that you know best.
Bollocks have they said that.
Source please. I call bullshit.
Do your own research or stay in petulant denial. I don't care either way. What the trade has been saying about both NI supermarket deliveries and fresh food in general has been repeated over and over again. That clever dicks like your good self think they know better than the people who do it for a living is really comical.
No the actual experts keep saying they will cope and will have food on the shelves.
Just because you say ever louder the polar opposite doesn't make it true.
An extension is the path of least resistance. Johnson just needs to make it look like the EU has backed down.
Get 'No Change But With The Option For Future Divergence' Brexit Done!
It's always been the case that change would be incremental over the future. Remember pretty much the entire body of EU law was adopted as domestic law as part of the Withdrawal Act.
It's having the option for future divergence, unilaterally controlled by our sovereign Parliament, that is the key issue.
If the option to diverge is more important than diverging it follows with similar cast-iron logic that the option to leave was more important than leaving. The option to leave was the important thing. Which we had. We had the option to leave. We demonstrated this by doing so. But we did not need to prove it. It was always clear that we could leave. And given we could we did not need to. This is maths not politics. Brexit = Waste of Time. QED.
No, because the option to diverge will be followed by increasing amounts of actual divergence. Some have already been announced that will apply from 1/1/21 and more will follow as time goes on.
So yes the option to diverge is followed up with actual divergence. The option to leave is followed up with actually leaving. Maths not politics. Your maths. QED, I win.
You said having the option to diverge is the key thing not the actual divergence. That cannot be unsaid now you realize the logic of it takes you to a place you find awkward. PB debate doesn't work that way.
Yes the option to diverge is key.
It will be followed by actual divergence but if you're not happy with the actual divergence you can reverse it by electing a new government. It's called taking back control.
The right to diverge is more important than what is actually done with that right. It is saying democracy is more important than any law passed under the democracy.
OK lets take a few steps back. If the *right* is the issue not the actual divergence, then we can avoid all of the chaos. The UK and the EU currently have the same zero tariff customs arrangements. We can maintain the right to change them at some point in the future but not yet. And thus have tariff free access for a fee. We currently have the same standards as the EU thus stopping weevil-infested American food from coming here. We can maintain the rights to downgrade our standards and eat weevil at some point in the future but not yet.
And there is the deal. The status quo. With a different name. Done.
I also believe such disruptions are less likely...
Do you believe in the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster too?
Just because you believe something does not mean that reality will listen and obey.
Its alt-fact lunacy. *Any* delay at all vs the current c. 2mins crossing time creates a huge blockage which gums the whole thing completely. The new computer system to manage customs doesn't exist. The old computer system can't handle the number of transactions. The people needed to process the transactions on the computer system that either doesn't yet exist or can't handle them don't exist.
On 1st January 2021 we either maintain the status quo. Or everything stops. What Philip is saying is literal wishful thinking that is demolished by the facts on the ground and not shared by anyone who is actually involved in the actual business of logistics.
What I'm saying is shared by people in the actual business of logistics though.
Plenty of people in the actual business have gone on TV and said eg for major grocery retailers that they are confident they can cope and will have food on the shelves either way even if there is some disruption.
Please quote anyone in the actual business saying their actual business is going to collapse and not cope? Because I've not seen one person say that yet besides terrified scaremongers.
Is the sky green over your head? Sainsbury's. This Tuesday. At their annual trade conference. "We don't know how we're going to trade on 1st January. There is no agreement across the EU, which affects our supply and logistics, nor are there trade agreements with most of the rest of the world".
Over in Norniron - which is the UK despite Shagger not thinking it is - all of the major UK supermarkets are warning shoppers that literally thousands of products may be unavailable due to the technical challenge of trying to import short life fresh food through the GB/NI border. Remember that the UK government cannot tell Sainsbury's or any of the rest of them what paperwork they will need to ship GB to NI.
Any disruption. At all. And everything stops. That is reality. According to the people on the ground.
Saying they don't know how they're going to trade is not saying they won't be able to trade.
Indeed. There is still hope that the UK caves and the status quo continues. Otherwise they have already laid out what will happen. Nothing - as in food not being delivered to shops as they don't have any to deliver.
As always I am sure that you know best.
Bollocks have they said that.
Source please. I call bullshit.
Do your own research or stay in petulant denial. I don't care either way. What the trade has been saying about both NI supermarket deliveries and fresh food in general has been repeated over and over again. That clever dicks like your good self think they know better than the people who do it for a living is really comical.
No the actual experts keep saying they will cope and will have food on the shelves.
Just because you say ever louder the polar opposite doesn't make it true.
Got it. Actual experts who know more about the supply chain of supermarkets than the CEO of Sainsbury's who I quoted earlier.
Glad we have actual experts like you around to put the supermarkets right about how supermarkets work.
An extension is the path of least resistance. Johnson just needs to make it look like the EU has backed down.
Get 'No Change But With The Option For Future Divergence' Brexit Done!
It's always been the case that change would be incremental over the future. Remember pretty much the entire body of EU law was adopted as domestic law as part of the Withdrawal Act.
It's having the option for future divergence, unilaterally controlled by our sovereign Parliament, that is the key issue.
If the option to diverge is more important than diverging it follows with similar cast-iron logic that the option to leave was more important than leaving. The option to leave was the important thing. Which we had. We had the option to leave. We demonstrated this by doing so. But we did not need to prove it. It was always clear that we could leave. And given we could we did not need to. This is maths not politics. Brexit = Waste of Time. QED.
No, because the option to diverge will be followed by increasing amounts of actual divergence. Some have already been announced that will apply from 1/1/21 and more will follow as time goes on.
So yes the option to diverge is followed up with actual divergence. The option to leave is followed up with actually leaving. Maths not politics. Your maths. QED, I win.
You said having the option to diverge is the key thing not the actual divergence. That cannot be unsaid now you realize the logic of it takes you to a place you find awkward. PB debate doesn't work that way.
Yes the option to diverge is key.
It will be followed by actual divergence but if you're not happy with the actual divergence you can reverse it by electing a new government. It's called taking back control.
The right to diverge is more important than what is actually done with that right. It is saying democracy is more important than any law passed under the democracy.
OK lets take a few steps back. If the *right* is the issue not the actual divergence, then we can avoid all of the chaos. The UK and the EU currently have the same zero tariff customs arrangements. We can maintain the right to change them at some point in the future but not yet. And thus have tariff free access for a fee. We currently have the same standards as the EU thus stopping weevil-infested American food from coming here. We can maintain the rights to downgrade our standards and eat weevil at some point in the future but not yet.
And there is the deal. The status quo. With a different name. Done.
No because the status quo doesn't give us the right to change it. Try again.
Very strange given the wise forum of pb had declared his background upper middle class.
Some PBers, just like the rest of the country, have a weird obsession with class.
As I told as a young man, people with class, don't talk about class.
Plus nobody gives a rat's arse where you come from, it's where you're going that's important.
If you believe that, you must have missed @Cyclefree's numerous headers about HMG dishing out jobs and contracts to friends and relatives.
It would be fascinating to try to identify one long-lasting government in the history of the world that never gave the slightest preference to the friends and relatives of its members.
I also believe such disruptions are less likely...
Do you believe in the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster too?
Just because you believe something does not mean that reality will listen and obey.
Its alt-fact lunacy. *Any* delay at all vs the current c. 2mins crossing time creates a huge blockage which gums the whole thing completely. The new computer system to manage customs doesn't exist. The old computer system can't handle the number of transactions. The people needed to process the transactions on the computer system that either doesn't yet exist or can't handle them don't exist.
On 1st January 2021 we either maintain the status quo. Or everything stops. What Philip is saying is literal wishful thinking that is demolished by the facts on the ground and not shared by anyone who is actually involved in the actual business of logistics.
What I'm saying is shared by people in the actual business of logistics though.
Plenty of people in the actual business have gone on TV and said eg for major grocery retailers that they are confident they can cope and will have food on the shelves either way even if there is some disruption.
Please quote anyone in the actual business saying their actual business is going to collapse and not cope? Because I've not seen one person say that yet besides terrified scaremongers.
Is the sky green over your head? Sainsbury's. This Tuesday. At their annual trade conference. "We don't know how we're going to trade on 1st January. There is no agreement across the EU, which affects our supply and logistics, nor are there trade agreements with most of the rest of the world".
Over in Norniron - which is the UK despite Shagger not thinking it is - all of the major UK supermarkets are warning shoppers that literally thousands of products may be unavailable due to the technical challenge of trying to import short life fresh food through the GB/NI border. Remember that the UK government cannot tell Sainsbury's or any of the rest of them what paperwork they will need to ship GB to NI.
Any disruption. At all. And everything stops. That is reality. According to the people on the ground.
Saying they don't know how they're going to trade is not saying they won't be able to trade.
Indeed. There is still hope that the UK caves and the status quo continues. Otherwise they have already laid out what will happen. Nothing - as in food not being delivered to shops as they don't have any to deliver.
As always I am sure that you know best.
Bollocks have they said that.
Source please. I call bullshit.
Do your own research or stay in petulant denial. I don't care either way. What the trade has been saying about both NI supermarket deliveries and fresh food in general has been repeated over and over again. That clever dicks like your good self think they know better than the people who do it for a living is really comical.
And that seems like a sensible point to call it a day
When Boris' opponents spin this narrative, they never seem to understand how utterly damning it is of their own capabilities. The supposedly talentless ditherer Boris has humiliated and destroyed them electorally again and again and again - can you imagine what he could have achieved if he were gifted and driven?
It's a fair point, though doesn't disguise his own shortcomings even if electorally successful.
But he has only succeeded against opponents who were weak! Had Tessa Jowell been the Labour Mayoral candidate in 2012, Johnson would have lost - probably quite heavily.
I also believe such disruptions are less likely...
Do you believe in the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster too?
Just because you believe something does not mean that reality will listen and obey.
Its alt-fact lunacy. *Any* delay at all vs the current c. 2mins crossing time creates a huge blockage which gums the whole thing completely. The new computer system to manage customs doesn't exist. The old computer system can't handle the number of transactions. The people needed to process the transactions on the computer system that either doesn't yet exist or can't handle them don't exist.
On 1st January 2021 we either maintain the status quo. Or everything stops. What Philip is saying is literal wishful thinking that is demolished by the facts on the ground and not shared by anyone who is actually involved in the actual business of logistics.
What I'm saying is shared by people in the actual business of logistics though.
Plenty of people in the actual business have gone on TV and said eg for major grocery retailers that they are confident they can cope and will have food on the shelves either way even if there is some disruption.
Please quote anyone in the actual business saying their actual business is going to collapse and not cope? Because I've not seen one person say that yet besides terrified scaremongers.
Is the sky green over your head? Sainsbury's. This Tuesday. At their annual trade conference. "We don't know how we're going to trade on 1st January. There is no agreement across the EU, which affects our supply and logistics, nor are there trade agreements with most of the rest of the world".
Over in Norniron - which is the UK despite Shagger not thinking it is - all of the major UK supermarkets are warning shoppers that literally thousands of products may be unavailable due to the technical challenge of trying to import short life fresh food through the GB/NI border. Remember that the UK government cannot tell Sainsbury's or any of the rest of them what paperwork they will need to ship GB to NI.
Any disruption. At all. And everything stops. That is reality. According to the people on the ground.
Saying they don't know how they're going to trade is not saying they won't be able to trade.
Indeed. There is still hope that the UK caves and the status quo continues. Otherwise they have already laid out what will happen. Nothing - as in food not being delivered to shops as they don't have any to deliver.
As always I am sure that you know best.
Bollocks have they said that.
Source please. I call bullshit.
Do your own research or stay in petulant denial. I don't care either way. What the trade has been saying about both NI supermarket deliveries and fresh food in general has been repeated over and over again. That clever dicks like your good self think they know better than the people who do it for a living is really comical.
No the actual experts keep saying they will cope and will have food on the shelves.
Just because you say ever louder the polar opposite doesn't make it true.
Got it. Actual experts who know more about the supply chain of supermarkets than the CEO of Sainsbury's who I quoted earlier.
Glad we have actual experts like you around to put the supermarkets right about how supermarkets work.
You didn't quote the CEO of Sainsbury's.
Sainsbury's have said they will have food on the shelves either way.
You claimed Sainsbury's won't have food.
You are contradicted by Sainsbury's. I am saying what Sainsbury's are saying, not you. Sainsbury's have NEVER said they will have no food.
I also believe such disruptions are less likely...
Do you believe in the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster too?
Just because you believe something does not mean that reality will listen and obey.
Its alt-fact lunacy. *Any* delay at all vs the current c. 2mins crossing time creates a huge blockage which gums the whole thing completely. The new computer system to manage customs doesn't exist. The old computer system can't handle the number of transactions. The people needed to process the transactions on the computer system that either doesn't yet exist or can't handle them don't exist.
On 1st January 2021 we either maintain the status quo. Or everything stops. What Philip is saying is literal wishful thinking that is demolished by the facts on the ground and not shared by anyone who is actually involved in the actual business of logistics.
What I'm saying is shared by people in the actual business of logistics though.
Plenty of people in the actual business have gone on TV and said eg for major grocery retailers that they are confident they can cope and will have food on the shelves either way even if there is some disruption.
Please quote anyone in the actual business saying their actual business is going to collapse and not cope? Because I've not seen one person say that yet besides terrified scaremongers.
Is the sky green over your head? Sainsbury's. This Tuesday. At their annual trade conference. "We don't know how we're going to trade on 1st January. There is no agreement across the EU, which affects our supply and logistics, nor are there trade agreements with most of the rest of the world".
Over in Norniron - which is the UK despite Shagger not thinking it is - all of the major UK supermarkets are warning shoppers that literally thousands of products may be unavailable due to the technical challenge of trying to import short life fresh food through the GB/NI border. Remember that the UK government cannot tell Sainsbury's or any of the rest of them what paperwork they will need to ship GB to NI.
Any disruption. At all. And everything stops. That is reality. According to the people on the ground.
Saying they don't know how they're going to trade is not saying they won't be able to trade.
Indeed. There is still hope that the UK caves and the status quo continues. Otherwise they have already laid out what will happen. Nothing - as in food not being delivered to shops as they don't have any to deliver.
As always I am sure that you know best.
Bollocks have they said that.
Source please. I call bullshit.
Do your own research or stay in petulant denial. I don't care either way. What the trade has been saying about both NI supermarket deliveries and fresh food in general has been repeated over and over again. That clever dicks like your good self think they know better than the people who do it for a living is really comical.
No the actual experts keep saying they will cope and will have food on the shelves.
Just because you say ever louder the polar opposite doesn't make it true.
Got it. Actual experts who know more about the supply chain of supermarkets than the CEO of Sainsbury's who I quoted earlier.
Glad we have actual experts like you around to put the supermarkets right about how supermarkets work.
You didn't quote the CEO of Sainsbury's.
Sainsbury's have said they will have food on the shelves either way.
You claimed Sainsbury's won't have food.
You are contradicted by Sainsbury's. I am saying what Sainsbury's are saying, not you. Sainsbury's have NEVER said they will have no food.
But what food? Turnips and herring?
On which note I am off to find some food before your lot blockade it.
Lewis Hamilton doesn't deserve a knighthood, he deserves a Royal Dukedom.
Certain types of people who would normally be praising British sporting achievements to the heavens seem curiously unimpressed by Hamilton's achievements, I wonder what the the reason for this can be?
Much as royalty and the honours system leaves me cold, I'd quite enjoy the sight of Lewis taking a knee before her maj. The thought of what get up he might choose for the ceremony would also add to the entertainment.
An extension is the path of least resistance. Johnson just needs to make it look like the EU has backed down.
Get 'No Change But With The Option For Future Divergence' Brexit Done!
It's always been the case that change would be incremental over the future. Remember pretty much the entire body of EU law was adopted as domestic law as part of the Withdrawal Act.
It's having the option for future divergence, unilaterally controlled by our sovereign Parliament, that is the key issue.
If the option to diverge is more important than diverging it follows with similar cast-iron logic that the option to leave was more important than leaving. The option to leave was the important thing. Which we had. We had the option to leave. We demonstrated this by doing so. But we did not need to prove it. It was always clear that we could leave. And given we could we did not need to. This is maths not politics. Brexit = Waste of Time. QED.
No, because the option to diverge will be followed by increasing amounts of actual divergence. Some have already been announced that will apply from 1/1/21 and more will follow as time goes on.
So yes the option to diverge is followed up with actual divergence. The option to leave is followed up with actually leaving. Maths not politics. Your maths. QED, I win.
You said having the option to diverge is the key thing not the actual divergence. That cannot be unsaid now you realize the logic of it takes you to a place you find awkward. PB debate doesn't work that way.
Yes the option to diverge is key.
It will be followed by actual divergence but if you're not happy with the actual divergence you can reverse it by electing a new government. It's called taking back control.
The right to diverge is more important than what is actually done with that right. It is saying democracy is more important than any law passed under the democracy.
Ergo the right to leave was key not leaving. Which is where we were. There's no escape for you here. The door is locked. Unlike us in the EU you have lost your sovereignty.
I also believe such disruptions are less likely...
Do you believe in the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster too?
Just because you believe something does not mean that reality will listen and obey.
Its alt-fact lunacy. *Any* delay at all vs the current c. 2mins crossing time creates a huge blockage which gums the whole thing completely. The new computer system to manage customs doesn't exist. The old computer system can't handle the number of transactions. The people needed to process the transactions on the computer system that either doesn't yet exist or can't handle them don't exist.
On 1st January 2021 we either maintain the status quo. Or everything stops. What Philip is saying is literal wishful thinking that is demolished by the facts on the ground and not shared by anyone who is actually involved in the actual business of logistics.
To what extent could we revert to pre-1973 procedures?Doubtless some timelag would be involved.
I also believe such disruptions are less likely...
Do you believe in the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster too?
Just because you believe something does not mean that reality will listen and obey.
Its alt-fact lunacy. *Any* delay at all vs the current c. 2mins crossing time creates a huge blockage which gums the whole thing completely. The new computer system to manage customs doesn't exist. The old computer system can't handle the number of transactions. The people needed to process the transactions on the computer system that either doesn't yet exist or can't handle them don't exist.
On 1st January 2021 we either maintain the status quo. Or everything stops. What Philip is saying is literal wishful thinking that is demolished by the facts on the ground and not shared by anyone who is actually involved in the actual business of logistics.
What I'm saying is shared by people in the actual business of logistics though.
Plenty of people in the actual business have gone on TV and said eg for major grocery retailers that they are confident they can cope and will have food on the shelves either way even if there is some disruption.
Please quote anyone in the actual business saying their actual business is going to collapse and not cope? Because I've not seen one person say that yet besides terrified scaremongers.
Is the sky green over your head? Sainsbury's. This Tuesday. At their annual trade conference. "We don't know how we're going to trade on 1st January. There is no agreement across the EU, which affects our supply and logistics, nor are there trade agreements with most of the rest of the world".
Over in Norniron - which is the UK despite Shagger not thinking it is - all of the major UK supermarkets are warning shoppers that literally thousands of products may be unavailable due to the technical challenge of trying to import short life fresh food through the GB/NI border. Remember that the UK government cannot tell Sainsbury's or any of the rest of them what paperwork they will need to ship GB to NI.
Any disruption. At all. And everything stops. That is reality. According to the people on the ground.
Saying they don't know how they're going to trade is not saying they won't be able to trade.
Indeed. There is still hope that the UK caves and the status quo continues. Otherwise they have already laid out what will happen. Nothing - as in food not being delivered to shops as they don't have any to deliver.
As always I am sure that you know best.
Bollocks have they said that.
Source please. I call bullshit.
Do your own research or stay in petulant denial. I don't care either way. What the trade has been saying about both NI supermarket deliveries and fresh food in general has been repeated over and over again. That clever dicks like your good self think they know better than the people who do it for a living is really comical.
No the actual experts keep saying they will cope and will have food on the shelves.
Just because you say ever louder the polar opposite doesn't make it true.
Well, the issue is what will be available and at what price. Airfreighted lettuce- yep, available, but at 6 times the price of trucked-in Spanish lettuce which may not be available for weeks.
Meanwhile several staple items, will become only sporadically available, if at all, and at much higher prices. Sure the invisible hand will provide, but the UK economy will be mashed. We are not making this up: this is simply a function of what happens when you dick around with logistics chains and do not explain to hauliers or exporters, importers or anyone else what new arrangements you plan. Experts are, well you know, expert and they are simply telling you that the UK can not handle what is coming in January. Over time -weeks, months, who knows- things will sort out, and a new normal will settle, but if you think that is the triumph of good government, well, the newspapers will have a bucket of shit to drop on Boris´s head every single day. Perhaps we wouldn´t be so pissed off, if it hadn´t been so bloody obvious from the beginning that if you left cretins like Baker, Francois, Redwood, Gove, the Pointless, Aimless, Graceless and Feckless of Brexit in charge of the asylum then the UK was going to end up short half a trillion quid.
Comments
It will be followed by actual divergence but if you're not happy with the actual divergence you can reverse it by electing a new government. It's called taking back control.
The right to diverge is more important than what is actually done with that right. It is saying democracy is more important than any law passed under the democracy.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/15/chumocracy-covid-revealed-shape-tory-establishment
https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2020/11/turkey-post-race-analysis-2020.html
The best of the rest fights are very close. Just three races left, two in Bahrain (differing layouts) and one in Abu Dhabi.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1327960545929072645
And yet no mention of the oncoming train (with respect to many of these scheme to connect remote areas... Starlink.
There is never a day so long or so bad that it doesn't draw to a close, and the same goes for longer episodes. The sun will still come up in the morning, and life goes on.
The EU have made an offer for a future trade deal. The UK doesn't like it. Oh well. Walk then.
Don't repudiate agreements that this UK government signed less than a year ago.
I do think we're doing a damn silly thing. But that's democracy.
What we're talking about now is the silly, potentially harmful way that Johnson and co are insisting on doing it.
Their problem was more that they had a very fast car at the wettest part and a not so competitive car when it dried out, so they just needed a bit more rain from the mid-race on.
They might have had a 2-3 if they hadn't pitted Stroll but they weren't going to win once Hamilton got the pace he had on the worn inters.
James Frayne, Telegraph
Agree entirely the win wasn't on. Would've required Hamilton to make a mistake as per Verstappen.
Just because you say ever louder the polar opposite doesn't make it true.
And there is the deal. The status quo. With a different name. Done.
Glad we have actual experts like you around to put the supermarkets right about how supermarkets work.
Later peeps!
Sainsbury's have said they will have food on the shelves either way.
You claimed Sainsbury's won't have food.
You are contradicted by Sainsbury's. I am saying what Sainsbury's are saying, not you. Sainsbury's have NEVER said they will have no food.
NEW THREAD
On which note I am off to find some food before your lot blockade it.
Much as royalty and the honours system leaves me cold, I'd quite enjoy the sight of Lewis taking a knee before her maj. The thought of what get up he might choose for the ceremony would also add to the entertainment.
Meanwhile several staple items, will become only sporadically available, if at all, and at much higher prices. Sure the invisible hand will provide, but the UK economy will be mashed. We are not making this up: this is simply a function of what happens when you dick around with logistics chains and do not explain to hauliers or exporters, importers or anyone else what new arrangements you plan. Experts are, well you know, expert and they are simply telling you that the UK can not handle what is coming in January. Over time -weeks, months, who knows- things will sort out, and a new normal will settle, but if you think that is the triumph of good government, well, the newspapers will have a bucket of shit to drop on Boris´s head every single day.
Perhaps we wouldn´t be so pissed off, if it hadn´t been so bloody obvious from the beginning that if you left cretins like Baker, Francois, Redwood, Gove, the Pointless, Aimless, Graceless and Feckless of Brexit in charge of the asylum then the UK was going to end up short half a trillion quid.