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CNN calls it for Biden – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    Further to that, the Itaslians could have done some real damage with their 203m guns (ie eight inches, cf. Belfast 6"). Other than the central part of the hull over the engines, boilers and magazines, above the waterline it was only really the main turrets that weere armoured, one or two bits of the inner bridges apart. Much of the armour on battleships and cruisers was flat on the deck (literally) so not much good at point blank range where the trajectory was flattish. So our Phil was in a very exposed position, not much better than being in a tin piedish. Maybe some splinter protection if he was lucky.
    At a mile range, 8" could penetrate 12"+ of face hardened plate, in many cases. So *everything* on the battleships was vulnerable.

    Of Guadalcanal, American cruisers sank a Japanese battleship, by getting in close, IIRC
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    IanB2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    And like every good Italian I imagined they stopped fighting at noon thirty and resumed at 3.30pm?
    Sensible, civilised chaps.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    Max. In a binary contest you win or lose. You should know this from Brexit. 17 million people were beyond pissed off but no one thought to try to share the spoils (and in that instance it was possible). Here it isn't. Trump is out and that's the way it is
    You'll get no argument from me on brexit, from the start I said that the way to leave should get as many people on board as possible rather than 52%. Unfortunately the 13% of toxic liberals spoke for the 48%, the same toxic 13% are doing the same now and I guarantee you that if they spend the next four years of ignoring 70m voters and calling them all racist Trumpism will make a stunning comeback.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,926
    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.


    Did the Trumptons pay any attention to that fact that Trump didn't even win the popular vote?
    Just because Trump behaved appallingly (and he did behave appallingly) is no reason for Biden and the Democrats to do likewise. Indeed, I would hope that Biden (and Harris) will work tirelessly to make it clear they are the President (and VP) for all Americans, and not just the ones who voted for them.

    Simultaneously, we need to understand why people believe things like Frazzledrip. Because bringing the US together also means understanding and tackling the fact that 20 million Americans believe stuff that is obviously (and ridiculously) bat shit crazy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    The Italians, like the French, rearmed too early, and went to war with obsolete equipment and tactics in 1939.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    IanB2 said:

    Carnyx said:


    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)

    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    And like every good Italian I imagined they stopped fighting at noon thirty and resumed at 3.30pm?
    They insiestad on it.
  • glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    I detest Trump, probably more so than 99% of the people on this site, but he got a hell of a lot of votes. The idea that Trump's kind of politics has been resoundingly thwarted is for the birds. I believe that if Trump has simply allowed Fauci and his colleagues to properly do their jobs then Trump would have almost certainly won the election.

    EVERYBODY should realise that the US could easily elect another person as malign as Trump, but next time he or she will likely be smoother and smarter. I'm delighted that Biden has been elected, but the warning signs about the fragility of the US politcal system are clearer than ever.
    https://twitter.com/JohnBrennan/status/1324715083298230272
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    isam said:

    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    Max. In a binary contest you win or lose. You should know this from Brexit. 17 million people were beyond pissed off but no one thought to try to share the spoils (and in that instance it was possible). Here it isn't. Trump is out and that's the way it is
    The problem with that is, the Remainers consistently argued the complete opposite of what you just said - Leavers needed to reach out and get Remain onside, there had to be some acknowledgement of how close a result it was etc

    It is quite extraordinary to see that case being made now
    Nevertheless there is a difference between a partisan vote that's repeated every 4 years, and a vote that is intended to create a stable constitutional settlement.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    The Italians, like the French, rearmed too early, and went to war with obsolete equipment and tactics in 1939.
    Point of pedantry - they didn’t join the war until 1940.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited November 2020
    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    I detest Trump, probably more so than 99% of the people on this site, but he got a hell of a lot of votes. The idea that Trump's kind of politics has been resoundingly thwarted is for the birds. I believe that if Trump has simply allowed Fauci and his colleagues to properly do their jobs then Trump would have almost certainly won the election.

    EVERYBODY should realise that the US could easily elect another person as malign as Trump, but next time he or she will likely be smoother and smarter. I'm delighted that Biden has been elected, but the warning signs about the fragility of the US politcal system are clearer than ever.
    Astute post. I think Biden is the aberration, not trump.

    Trumps key advantage was that he was the first US political actor to fully take advantage of Twitter. Others will follow - and use it even more effectively- and use the new media platforms that emerge to even greater effect.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    https://twitter.com/TVietor08/status/1325137653851828230

    Promise I am going but this guy is likely to be part of a Biden administration. Over to Johnson.

    Wow, Boris is good on the old computer. That is a really well presented greeting.

    No wonder it took him so long to post it.
    I wonder if the other one he drafted will ever see the light of day?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    The Italians, like the French, rearmed too early, and went to war with obsolete equipment and tactics in 1939.
    They did very well, in small units, and when removed from their useless chain of command.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,171
    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.


    Did the Trumptons pay any attention to that fact that Trump didn't even win the popular vote?
    The Dems can’t really complain about the electoral college system because whenever they’ve controlled all 3 branches of government they’ve chosen not to change it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Just gets better and better for Bozo , his best pal chucked out , Europe grovelling surrender coming up, trouble re Ireland debacle and now
    The US - Scotland Angle

    “I think the United Kingdom - look, I learned from Scottish friends, the last thing to do is to suggest to a Scot what he should do ... Scotland's democratic will must be respected." Joe Biden

    Indeed it should, we must respect Scotland's decisive 55% vote to stay in the UK in 2014
    I'm not sure how it's in the interest of the USA to will the split of the UK.
    It is called democracy, you nutjob unionists don't understand what that means.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    isam said:

    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    Max. In a binary contest you win or lose. You should know this from Brexit. 17 million people were beyond pissed off but no one thought to try to share the spoils (and in that instance it was possible). Here it isn't. Trump is out and that's the way it is
    The problem with that is, the Remainers consistently argued the complete opposite of what you just said - Leavers needed to reach out and get Remain onside, there had to be some acknowledgement of how close a result it was etc

    It is quite extraordinary to see that case being made now
    Nevertheless there is a difference between a partisan vote that's repeated every 4 years, and a vote that is intended to create a stable constitutional settlement.
    Bollocks. 52:48 the other way and we know exactly what would have happened.
  • dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    The later Italian warships and aircraft of WW2 were really good designs. eg. Battleship Vittorio Veneto, and the MC.205 fighter.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    Max. In a binary contest you win or lose. You should know this from Brexit. 17 million people were beyond pissed off but no one thought to try to share the spoils (and in that instance it was possible). Here it isn't. Trump is out and that's the way it is
    The problem with that is, the Remainers consistently argued the complete opposite of what you just said - Leavers needed to reach out and get Remain onside, there had to be some acknowledgement of how close a result it was etc

    It is quite extraordinary to see that case being made now
    Nevertheless there is a difference between a partisan vote that's repeated every 4 years, and a vote that is intended to create a stable constitutional settlement.
    Yes, true, but still, it is dispiriting to see so starkly the way people change what they consider to be the appropriate behaviour depending on victory or defeat
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    dr_spyn said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    There's still some arguments on Italian radar - they actually had some decent systems in development*, but budget cuts due to the state of the Italian economy (massively overstretched by the idiot in charge) had put the program on hold. As you say, after Mattapan interest revived.

    *Radar was invented multiple times, in just about every country you can think of, in the 1930s
    One of the main themes in John Gooch's book considers Mussolini's failure to develop a coherent military and naval strategy. Behind the bombast, there was little there.

    The Regina Marina manned torpedoes managed to damage HMS Valiant and Queen Elizabeth. It wasn't plain sailing for The RN in The Med.
    The story of Decima Mas is an Italian tragedy - perhaps a parable of Italy in WWII.

    Heroism and skill in the service of a terrible cause at the beginning, ending in war crimes and lunacy.....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    The Italians, like the French, rearmed too early, and went to war with obsolete equipment and tactics in 1939.
    Point of pedantry - they didn’t join the war until 1940.
    So their equipment was even more obsolete 🙂

    I think that you could make the case that the British Army also had obsolete equipment and tactics in 1940, but the RN and RAF did not.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    Further to that, the Itaslians could have done some real damage with their 203m guns (ie eight inches, cf. Belfast 6"). Other than the central part of the hull over the engines, boilers and magazines, above the waterline it was only really the main turrets that weere armoured, one or two bits of the inner bridges apart. Much of the armour on battleships and cruisers was flat on the deck (literally) so not much good at point blank range where the trajectory was flattish. So our Phil was in a very exposed position, not much better than being in a tin piedish. Maybe some splinter protection if he was lucky.
    At a mile range, 8" could penetrate 12"+ of face hardened plate, in many cases. So *everything* on the battleships was vulnerable.

    Of Guadalcanal, American cruisers sank a Japanese battleship, by getting in close, IIRC
    And most cruisers had torpedoes - so it would have seemed even more of a risk as the Italians, like the Japanese and British, had decent ones ab initio. Though, to my surprise, I find on checking that they got left off the Zara class cruisers in the design process - Washington Ttreaty limits and all that.

  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    Andy_JS said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.


    Did the Trumptons pay any attention to that fact that Trump didn't even win the popular vote?
    The Dems can’t really complain about the electoral college system because whenever they’ve controlled all 3 branches of government they’ve chosen not to change it.
    It's in the constitution. Two thirds each of the Senate and House, and three quarters of the states required.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    edited November 2020
    @Casino_Royale

    I wasn't talking to you anyway, so mind your own business. I have not been offensive to you. Being told to **** off is not appreciated.

    You need anger management training.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Can someone check if Contrarian and Brokenwheel are ok? They were posting quite prolifically until Wednesday then nada. I feel that only the most dire circumstance would make them miss this PB moment.

    I'll conduct some welfare checks on them, it's what the site editorial team should do.
    I can't believe nobody is checking on me as well :)

    Re the call of the networks for Biden, some feedback from what hearing the other side of the pond.

    1. @CarlottaVance is right. The networks' call doesn't have legal force. The feeling is this is definitely a PR move to force acceptance and push a narrative before recounts are over.

    2. The thoughts over there is some surprise Biden has pushed it this evening as two states are under official recount (Georgia and Wisconsin) and a third (Arizona) hasn't called but it may go to a recount. Also that PA was called given it is under a Supreme Court order. It was pointed out, if you take out the the states under official recount, Biden only has 269 votes even with PA;

    3. Trump actually delivered something that was tangible on the vote front but it wasn't fraud. One of the counties in Michigan reported that a software glitch transferred 6000 votes from Trump to Biden and has reversed it out. The same piece of software is in nearly 50 counties in Michigan and in Georgia. That - possibly - could be important because it would mean individual counties (who have responsibility for vote counts) running checks and bypassing the need to go to the courts. On the other hand, it may not matter at all and it might just be one county with an issue. Nobody knows but it is an area of focus.

    4. This is a personal thought - re Johnson, I don't think he will call this yet for Biden (though I might be wrong). I think he will wait to see what happens with Trump's reaction and what others do. Remember Trump still has two months in office.

    More importantly, when will the Bookies pay out on the result?
    2. The PA case concerns votes that haven't even been counted yet: Biden will win even if they are kicked out, and that has all the EC votes he needs.

    4. He has.
    2. I know; 4 - I realised after I posted, hence my reply to @Anabobazina !
    Re (2), he's correct. The SoS in PA said that the votes recieved post election day have been segregated and are not included in the vote totals.
    Yes, was just reporting what I had been fed back. I think the view was, even though the number wouldn't matter, it was weird to call a state where the Supreme Court had been involved
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    edited November 2020
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    The Italians, like the French, rearmed too early, and went to war with obsolete equipment and tactics in 1939.
    Point of pedantry - they didn’t join the war until 1940.
    So their equipment was even more obsolete 🙂

    I think that you could make the case that the British Army also had obsolete equipment and tactics in 1940, but the RN and RAF did not.

    The problem was Hitler jumped his own timetable.

    It was clear to everyone in Europe that he planned to have Germany full rearmed in 1942. Notably this was a full decade since the breakout from the Treaty of Versailles - which the experts had always said would leave Germany a decade from being able to wage war.

    That 1942 was the year was particularly clear from his plans for the German fleet.

    The British government planned accordingly - the plan was to invest in massive infrastructure (factories and technology) for a long war. In 1942, the plan was for the RAF to be armed with 400mph fighters with uniform cannon armament, the bombers were to be cannon armed, cruising at 300mph, close to B29 sized.... The army would have had thousands of tanks, armed, as standard with the 17lbr etc etc.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    tlg86 said:

    isam said:

    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    Max. In a binary contest you win or lose. You should know this from Brexit. 17 million people were beyond pissed off but no one thought to try to share the spoils (and in that instance it was possible). Here it isn't. Trump is out and that's the way it is
    The problem with that is, the Remainers consistently argued the complete opposite of what you just said - Leavers needed to reach out and get Remain onside, there had to be some acknowledgement of how close a result it was etc

    It is quite extraordinary to see that case being made now
    Nevertheless there is a difference between a partisan vote that's repeated every 4 years, and a vote that is intended to create a stable constitutional settlement.
    Bollocks. 52:48 the other way and we know exactly what would have happened.
    PM Farage!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Evening all :)

    While I'm pleased Joseph Biden has seemingly traversed the sea of electoral misfortune successfully, the question is how is he going to re-unite the United States.

    That comes to the fundamental point of Trump's success - he didn't do well because of who he was but who he wasn't. Unlike Obama, Clinton, Merkel, Macron, Trudeau and even Johnson, Trump wasn't a politician. He ran and won as an anti-politics politician. The epithet of "draining the swamp" was meant for ALL from Washington, not only Democrats but establishment Republicans and that resonated.

    Like all revolutions, it was simply the replacement of one elite by another but those supporting the revolution never see it in those terms - they don't care about the new order, they want the old order gone.

    In some ways, Biden is Louis XVIII in 1815 or Charles II in 1660 - the elite has been restored but things will never be the same. Even as the Revolution became twisted and consumed itself, the root grievances which fuelled it were and remain valid and unresolved.

    I don't see Biden being capable of addressing the deep social, cultural and economic issues which manifested themselves in the rise of Trump and which exist (in diluted form) in the UK.

    We need a politics and a political system which is inclusive but not on the basis of a new paternalism. From crime to immigration, people have real anxieties about how they live and how the communities in which they live operate. Pretending these concerns don't exist or are some form of "bigotry" is foolish in extremis and abdicates the field to those propagating extreme (and often either impractical or violent) solutions.

    The challenge is to bring people back into politics or take politics back to the people. I live in a Borough where 60% vote Labour and 100% of the council seats are Labour - I don't call that democracy but it's not about a voting system, it's about recognising the plurality and diversity of voices and opinions and making sure they are recognised and heard and have a part in the decision-making process.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    What's the minimum size in terms of population before a people are "entitled" to a parliament?
    I can tell you that smaller countries than Scotland do exist as independent states.
  • malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    "Frosties tokens", hahahahahaha
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    What's the minimum size in terms of population before a people are "entitled" to a parliament?
    I can tell you that smaller countries than Scotland do exist as independent states.
    Yes of course they do, just as of course Prince Philip does have all those medals. Cheeks of the same arse.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    I detest Trump, probably more so than 99% of the people on this site, but he got a hell of a lot of votes. The idea that Trump's kind of politics has been resoundingly thwarted is for the birds. I believe that if Trump has simply allowed Fauci and his colleagues to properly do their jobs then Trump would have almost certainly won the election.

    EVERYBODY should realise that the US could easily elect another person as malign as Trump, but next time he or she will likely be smoother and smarter. I'm delighted that Biden has been elected, but the warning signs about the fragility of the US politcal system are clearer than ever.
    https://twitter.com/JohnBrennan/status/1324715083298230272
    That's my point.

    The number one thing that has worried me these last four years is "what the hell will he do if there is another 9/11 type attack?" I honestly think America is only a few steps from fascism, and it's quite easy to envisage scenarios that takes the country there. 70 million Americans are just fine with all the crazy stuff Trump had said and done, a polished Trump would be able to do all kinds of awful things.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    Further to that, the Itaslians could have done some real damage with their 203m guns (ie eight inches, cf. Belfast 6"). Other than the central part of the hull over the engines, boilers and magazines, above the waterline it was only really the main turrets that weere armoured, one or two bits of the inner bridges apart. Much of the armour on battleships and cruisers was flat on the deck (literally) so not much good at point blank range where the trajectory was flattish. So our Phil was in a very exposed position, not much better than being in a tin piedish. Maybe some splinter protection if he was lucky.
    At a mile range, 8" could penetrate 12"+ of face hardened plate, in many cases. So *everything* on the battleships was vulnerable.

    Of Guadalcanal, American cruisers sank a Japanese battleship, by getting in close, IIRC
    And most cruisers had torpedoes - so it would have seemed even more of a risk as the Italians, like the Japanese and British, had decent ones ab initio. Though, to my surprise, I find on checking that they got left off the Zara class cruisers in the design process - Washington Ttreaty limits and all that.

    Did you see my earlier comment about HMS Formidable finding itself in a battle line with three battleships at the crucial point in the battle?
  • Stocky said:

    Surprising that so much is available (over £650k) to back Biden at 1.04??

    Lots of free money to gain if you happen to have £650,000 lying around. But I suppose it's not gone to 1.01 in case of legal shenanigans.
    Uncertainty as to when Betfair will settle is probably the most important factor. How long will your stake be tied up for? There will be plenty of other opportunities at 1.04 towards the end of football matches over the weekend, for instance, and other sports, that do not tie up funds for more than 10 minutes or so.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    I am perfectly happy for Birmingham to be independent if it so wishes , my only beef is the English parliament preventing Scotland having democracy. I have nothing against any English person other than if they are preventing Scotland having democracy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    The Italians, like the French, rearmed too early, and went to war with obsolete equipment and tactics in 1939.
    Point of pedantry - they didn’t join the war until 1940.
    So their equipment was even more obsolete 🙂

    I think that you could make the case that the British Army also had obsolete equipment and tactics in 1940, but the RN and RAF did not.

    The problem was Hitler jumped his own timetable.

    It was clear to everyone in Europe that he planned to have Germany full rearmed in 1942. Notably this was a full decade since the breakout from the Treaty of Versailles - which the experts had always said would leave Germany a decade from being able to wage war.

    That 1942 was the year was particularly clear from his plans for the German fleet.

    The British government planned accordingly - the plan was to invest in massive infrastructure (factories and technology) for a long war. In 1942, the plan was for the RAF to be armed with 400mph fighters with uniform cannon armament, the bombers were to be cannon armed, cruising at 300mph, close to B29 sized.... The army would have had thousands of tanks, armed, as standard with the 17lbr etc etc.
    Though much German equipment was also obsolete in 1940, with the Panzer 2 and 3 the mainstay. It was the tactics and combined arms that made them effective.

    On the other hand the British Army was the only one to be fully mechanised in 1940, with the Germans dependent on horses throughout the war.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    Stocky said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Stocky said:

    Surprising that so much is available (over £650k) to back Biden at 1.04??

    Decent annualised return. I'd take that.
    Even better, I`ve just got some 1.17 on the -48.5 handicap market (which is a winner even if Biden loses Arizona). Losing Georgia is the risk, I guess.
    Great spot. Well done.
    Agreed, that is ridiculous, I've just stuck 300 quid on that.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    Chris said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    MrEd said:

    Can someone check if Contrarian and Brokenwheel are ok? They were posting quite prolifically until Wednesday then nada. I feel that only the most dire circumstance would make them miss this PB moment.

    I'll conduct some welfare checks on them, it's what the site editorial team should do.
    I can't believe nobody is checking on me as well :)

    Re the call of the networks for Biden, some feedback from what hearing the other side of the pond.

    1. @CarlottaVance is right. The networks' call doesn't have legal force. The feeling is this is definitely a PR move to force acceptance and push a narrative before recounts are over.

    2. The thoughts over there is some surprise Biden has pushed it this evening as two states are under official recount (Georgia and Wisconsin) and a third (Arizona) hasn't called but it may go to a recount. Also that PA was called given it is under a Supreme Court order. It was pointed out, if you take out the the states under official recount, Biden only has 269 votes even with PA;

    3. Trump actually delivered something that was tangible on the vote front but it wasn't fraud. One of the counties in Michigan reported that a software glitch transferred 6000 votes from Trump to Biden and has reversed it out. The same piece of software is in nearly 50 counties in Michigan and in Georgia. That - possibly - could be important because it would mean individual counties (who have responsibility for vote counts) running checks and bypassing the need to go to the courts. On the other hand, it may not matter at all and it might just be one county with an issue. Nobody knows but it is an area of focus.

    4. This is a personal thought - re Johnson, I don't think he will call this yet for Biden (though I might be wrong). I think he will wait to see what happens with Trump's reaction and what others do. Remember Trump still has two months in office.

    More importantly, when will the Bookies pay out on the result?
    Despite all the talk sadly there is not the slightest sign of Trump conceding and an outside possibility of litigation making a difference, while there is a real prospect of litigation making a challenge. Too early to say anything else at all at the moment. Let's hope he concedes soon. Fox News while calling it for Biden is also saying that it is far from over. I am sorry to say I agree for the moment.

    I said it before but I will repeat it, I think the Arizona count here could be absolutely critical to how this whole situation plays out. He's at 20K margin and if you look at the counties with the largest shares of the vote to come (10%+) all bar the small-ish Apache one are Republican by double digit. Pinal, where he is up 15%, has 27K votes to go.

    Assuming a scenario where he wins NC and AL, a win in AZ puts Trump on 242. He's got a recount in Georgia which is by no means out given the wafer thin margin so you could (theoretically) be on 258.

    It's clear from his statement that he will fight and it's a signal to others to join him. It's going to be very hard for the RNC to walk away from this. So this will drag on. Whether foreign leaders recognise Biden actually will count for sh1t as to how this plays out.
    GA won't flip on a recount
    PA will go the certified vote
    On Arizona, there is something wrong with the 97% figure for reported ballots still being shown. That was the figure shown this morning, and would imply about 100k ballots outstanding. But nearly 50k were reported today and the figure hasn't changed.

    If half the outstanding ballots were reported today, then there are only about 50k yet to come and Trump will need a 40% lead in those ballots to catch up. That seems like a tall order. So far he has been achieving 20% or less.
    I have looked for more information and it seems the percentage was wrong before and is now close to correct. It looks as though about 115k ballots are still to come in Arizona, so Trump needs a 17% lead in those to catch up.I think that is bigger than what he has been getting so far, but not a lot bigger.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited November 2020
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    What's the minimum size in terms of population before a people are "entitled" to a parliament?
    I can tell you that smaller countries than Scotland do exist as independent states.
    And England alone would still be the 26th largest country by population in the world and the 8th largest economy but we are still better and stronger together
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,121
    Here are a bunch of bellwether counties and their results in various prez elections. Green squares are where they swung with the winner, red where they don't. Trump won loads and still got fiyud.




    I think we need to seriously consider the idea that the tribal alliances of the US electorate are now materially different.

    Of course, this will be another chapter in Trump's We Was Robbed Bigly book too.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ...
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I live in quite a Brexity area, but I think people are pleased Trump lost - there's been fireworks going off pretty much ever since CNN called it for Biden

    Trump transcends Brexit.

    The way I look at this is to think: does this person have characteristics I would be proud of in my children?

    And Trump does not.
    Blimey Robert I thought you would have got the joke!!

    Unless I have missed the return joke?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Abe said:

    DeClare said:

    DeClare said:

    BBC has just called it as well, the big three networks in the US must have as well.

    Settle up Betfair.

    I'm resigned to them not paying out until December, and maybe even until January 20th.
    Their rules state:


    'This market will be settled according to the candidate that has the most projected Electoral College votes won at the 2020 presidential election. Any subsequent events such as a ‘faithless elector’ will have no effect on the settlement of this market. In the event that no Presidential candidate receives a majority of the projected Electoral College votes, this market will be settled on the person chosen as President in accordance with the procedures set out by the Twelfth Amendment to the United States Constitution'

    That seems clear enough to ,me, Biden now has a majority of 'projected electoral college votes' and we don't have to wait 'til the college meets on 14th of December.
    Betfair have clarified:

    https://betting.betfair.com/politics/us-politics/us-election-betfair-market-settlement-latest-051120-204.html

    "We will only settle the markets when there is certainty around which candidate has the most projected Electoral College votes. Before settling the markets, we must therefore wait for clarity around ongoing vote counts, recounts and any potential legal challenges to the results."
    Betfair were never going to settle based on what CNN and Fox had to say about the election when counting is very much ongoing and subject to recounts and challenges. They’re waiting for official results to be certified in each state.

    Don’t expect them to settle anything until at least December.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited November 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.


    Did the Trumptons pay any attention to that fact that Trump didn't even win the popular vote?
    Just because Trump behaved appallingly (and he did behave appallingly) is no reason for Biden and the Democrats to do likewise. Indeed, I would hope that Biden (and Harris) will work tirelessly to make it clear they are the President (and VP) for all Americans, and not just the ones who voted for them.

    Simultaneously, we need to understand why people believe things like Frazzledrip. Because bringing the US together also means understanding and tackling the fact that 20 million Americans believe stuff that is obviously (and ridiculously) bat shit crazy.
    I think Biden will definitely try to be a healer but he won't succeed because, as you say, 20m Americans believe bat-shit crazy stuff. Why do you think Americans are so much prone to believing this QAnon type stuff than Europeans? Same with religion - in Europe religious people are, in the main, decent normal people. In the US much of the Christian evangelical right seems bonkers.

    I'm sure someone has written a good book about it somewhere but I simply can't get my head around it, millions seem to believe stuff that no intelligent person would give house room and yet they can't all be that thick can they?

  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    I am perfectly happy for Birmingham to be independent if it so wishes , my only beef is the English parliament preventing Scotland having democracy. I have nothing against any English person other than if they are preventing Scotland having democracy.
    Preventing Scotland having democracy? I recall a vote in 2014, a general election in 207 and 2019, control on law and education (education - need I say more). Democracy for the Scotland is blaming all of your troubles on Westminster
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    This is what '97 felt like on our side of the political divide. Enjoy!
    Oh do fuck off.

    Congratulations to Biden but t.

    Don't be curmudgeonly.

    It's not the right time to be portentous about why Trump won in the first place. I could easily cite to you my friends on the left who loathed Hillary Clinton (with plenty of reason).

    Be gracious.
    No, those pleased he won need to be magnanimous. Those who lost need to be gracious.

    I wanted Trump to lose but this gloating new Red Dawn/anti Tory/left-modernist shit is winding me up.

    Partisanship drives partisanship. Lots of people should know better.
    Your response to me really is not appreciated. Grow up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    isam said:

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    I live in quite a Brexity area, but I think people are pleased Trump lost - there's been fireworks going off pretty much ever since CNN called it for Biden

    Trump transcends Brexit.

    The way I look at this is to think: does this person have characteristics I would be proud of in my children?

    And Trump does not.
    Blimey Robert I thought you would have got the joke!!

    Unless I have missed the return joke?
    I fear your joke was a damp squib.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Gaussian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.


    Did the Trumptons pay any attention to that fact that Trump didn't even win the popular vote?
    The Dems can’t really complain about the electoral college system because whenever they’ve controlled all 3 branches of government they’ve chosen not to change it.
    It's in the constitution. Two thirds each of the Senate and House, and three quarters of the states required.
    I think there’s a case for the Feds taking over the rules for running federal elections
  • HYUFD said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    What's the minimum size in terms of population before a people are "entitled" to a parliament?
    I can tell you that smaller countries than Scotland do exist as independent states.
    And England alone would still be the 26th largest country by population in the world and the 8th largest economy but we are still better together
    Well, I'll leave that up to folk who actually live in Scotland to decide. Unless there were some vote on English independence, I don't think the question is of much moment to most of us. Seems to matter a lot to you, though.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    Sadly the celebrations in America will probably push coronavirus cases to a new peak.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    HYUFD said:
    A slight improvement since they belatedly adopted the key policy of the Opposition?

    Not the most encouraging of signs...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,926

    NEW THREAD

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    I am perfectly happy for Birmingham to be independent if it so wishes , my only beef is the English parliament preventing Scotland having democracy. I have nothing against any English person other than if they are preventing Scotland having democracy.
    Last say the Westminster parliament on the matter was to authorise the Scottish referendum...
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited November 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.


    Did the Trumptons pay any attention to that fact that Trump didn't even win the popular vote?
    The Dems can’t really complain about the electoral college system because whenever they’ve controlled all 3 branches of government they’ve chosen not to change it.

    Both the Senate and, by extension the EC, are biased towards small rural states and that favours the GOP. I don't think you can argue against that. You can accept that that is unfair without being overly partisan about it.

    Given the power of the Senate most fair-minded people would accept that it's unfair that California and Wyoming both get 2 Senators each.

    The constitutional changes that would be required to rectify the situation would be extremely difficult to enact as Gaussian has explained in his response to you.
  • ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Carnyx said:


    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)

    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    And like every good Italian I imagined they stopped fighting at noon thirty and resumed at 3.30pm?
    They insiestad on it.
    The Old Man was good on this. He told me that when he arrived in North Africa in 1940 the British equipment was so superior to the Italians that it was farcical. Once the Germans arrived, it was our equipment that was the joke.

    If you'd had the equipment the Italians had, you'd have stopped well before noon thirty, mate.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    OllyT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.


    Did the Trumptons pay any attention to that fact that Trump didn't even win the popular vote?
    Just because Trump behaved appallingly (and he did behave appallingly) is no reason for Biden and the Democrats to do likewise. Indeed, I would hope that Biden (and Harris) will work tirelessly to make it clear they are the President (and VP) for all Americans, and not just the ones who voted for them.

    Simultaneously, we need to understand why people believe things like Frazzledrip. Because bringing the US together also means understanding and tackling the fact that 20 million Americans believe stuff that is obviously (and ridiculously) bat shit crazy.
    I think Biden will definitely try to be a healer but he won't succeed because, as you say, 20m Americans believe bat-shit crazy stuff. Why do you think Americans are so much prone to believing this QAnon type stuff than Europeans? Same with religion - in Europe religious people are, in the main, decent normal people. In the US much of the Christian evangelical right seems bonkers.

    I'm sure someone has written a good book about it somewhere but I simply can't get my head around it, millions seem to believe stuff that no intelligent person would give house room and yet they can't all be that thick can they?

    Natural selection? How many white Americans are descended from people who fled Europe to be able to follow their strongly held religious views freely?
  • malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    I am perfectly happy for Birmingham to be independent if it so wishes , my only beef is the English parliament preventing Scotland having democracy. I have nothing against any English person other than if they are preventing Scotland having democracy.
    ^ this.
    Decisions over sovereignty belong solely in the place where the question arises. It's perfectly legitimate for us in England to take a view, but not legitimate for us to have any say in the matter. You can't keep a nation on a leash. They either stay because they want to, or they leave. Anything else is madness.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    OllyT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.


    Did the Trumptons pay any attention to that fact that Trump didn't even win the popular vote?
    Just because Trump behaved appallingly (and he did behave appallingly) is no reason for Biden and the Democrats to do likewise. Indeed, I would hope that Biden (and Harris) will work tirelessly to make it clear they are the President (and VP) for all Americans, and not just the ones who voted for them.

    Simultaneously, we need to understand why people believe things like Frazzledrip. Because bringing the US together also means understanding and tackling the fact that 20 million Americans believe stuff that is obviously (and ridiculously) bat shit crazy.
    I think Biden will definitely try to be a healer but he won't succeed because, as you say, 20m Americans believe bat-shit crazy stuff. Why do you think Americans are so much prone to believing this QAnon type stuff than Europeans? Same with religion - in Europe religious people are, in the main, decent normal people. In the US much of the Christian evangelical right seems bonkers.

    I'm sure someone has written a good book about it somewhere but I simply can't get my head around it, millions seem to believe stuff that no intelligent person would give house room and yet they can't all be that thick can they?

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    glw said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    I detest Trump, probably more so than 99% of the people on this site, but he got a hell of a lot of votes. The idea that Trump's kind of politics has been resoundingly thwarted is for the birds. I believe that if Trump has simply allowed Fauci and his colleagues to properly do their jobs then Trump would have almost certainly won the election.

    EVERYBODY should realise that the US could easily elect another person as malign as Trump, but next time he or she will likely be smoother and smarter. I'm delighted that Biden has been elected, but the warning signs about the fragility of the US politcal system are clearer than ever.
    https://twitter.com/JohnBrennan/status/1324715083298230272
    That's my point.

    The number one thing that has worried me these last four years is "what the hell will he do if there is another 9/11 type attack?" I honestly think America is only a few steps from fascism, and it's quite easy to envisage scenarios that takes the country there. 70 million Americans are just fine with all the crazy stuff Trump had said and done, a polished Trump would be able to do all kinds of awful things.
    Wouldn't have to be polished. That's part of Trump's appeal.
    It's the competence factor that is worrying.
    Meanwhile on Con Home there is plenty of fix conspiracy and Q Anon nonsense.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    Matapan, I presume you mean?
    That's the one. Three cruisers for one Swordfish I think.
    Phil the Greek got a Mention In Dispatches for that one, IIRC.

    He was in charge of searchlight control, on his ship - at that period in time, radar, while vital wasn't suitable for complete blind aiming. The aim of searchlights in night fighting was to blind the enemy (imagine looking down a sighting telescope at a zillion candlepower) and illuminate the enemy for your ships to aim at.

    Get it wrong and you have just lit a perfect beacon for the enemy.

    Apparently, when they switched on, the lights were perfectly aimed at the Italian gunnery director towers. So they were blinded, while the British fleet fired multiple salvoes....
    Isn't he more Phil the Dane?
    The Italian heavy cruisers Fiume, Pola, and Zara all had their main guns trained for and aft. The recent book by John Gooch Mussolini's War implied that The Regina Marina had not pursued radar technology.
    That's true, but at a nautical mile or so range, it doesn't mean much - just think of HMS Belfast from, say, Tower Hill underground. The RN were all absolutely astounded by the guns being in the resting position. They certainly were expecting something much more on the qui vive [edit]. (And the air attacks in the Med. were dreadful, as well, anyway.)
    In general, the Italian forces were individually brave - just that they were less than motivated by their useless officers and worse government. And let down by abysmal supplies and lack of industrial capacity.
    The Italians, like the French, rearmed too early, and went to war with obsolete equipment and tactics in 1939.
    Point of pedantry - they didn’t join the war until 1940.
    So their equipment was even more obsolete 🙂

    I think that you could make the case that the British Army also had obsolete equipment and tactics in 1940, but the RN and RAF did not.

    It was so bad they dumped it all on a beach and ordered a new lot.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    MrEd said:

    Can someone check if Contrarian and Brokenwheel are ok? They were posting quite prolifically until Wednesday then nada. I feel that only the most dire circumstance would make them miss this PB moment.

    I'll conduct some welfare checks on them, it's what the site editorial team should do.
    I can't believe nobody is checking on me as well :)

    Re the call of the networks for Biden, some feedback from what hearing the other side of the pond.

    1. @CarlottaVance is right. The networks' call doesn't have legal force. The feeling is this is definitely a PR move to force acceptance and push a narrative before recounts are over.

    2. The thoughts over there is some surprise Biden has pushed it this evening as two states are under official recount (Georgia and Wisconsin) and a third (Arizona) hasn't called but it may go to a recount. Also that PA was called given it is under a Supreme Court order. It was pointed out, if you take out the the states under official recount, Biden only has 269 votes even with PA;

    3. Trump actually delivered something that was tangible on the vote front but it wasn't fraud. One of the counties in Michigan reported that a software glitch transferred 6000 votes from Trump to Biden and has reversed it out. The same piece of software is in nearly 50 counties in Michigan and in Georgia. That - possibly - could be important because it would mean individual counties (who have responsibility for vote counts) running checks and bypassing the need to go to the courts. On the other hand, it may not matter at all and it might just be one county with an issue. Nobody knows but it is an area of focus.

    4. This is a personal thought - re Johnson, I don't think he will call this yet for Biden (though I might be wrong). I think he will wait to see what happens with Trump's reaction and what others do. Remember Trump still has two months in office.

    More importantly, when will the Bookies pay out on the result?
    Despite all the talk sadly there is not the slightest sign of Trump conceding and an outside possibility of litigation making a difference, while there is a real prospect of litigation making a challenge. Too early to say anything else at all at the moment. Let's hope he concedes soon. Fox News while calling it for Biden is also saying that it is far from over. I am sorry to say I agree for the moment.

    I said it before but I will repeat it, I think the Arizona count here could be absolutely critical to how this whole situation plays out. He's at 20K margin and if you look at the counties with the largest shares of the vote to come (10%+) all bar the small-ish Apache one are Republican by double digit. Pinal, where he is up 15%, has 27K votes to go.

    Assuming a scenario where he wins NC and AL, a win in AZ puts Trump on 242. He's got a recount in Georgia which is by no means out given the wafer thin margin so you could (theoretically) be on 258.

    It's clear from his statement that he will fight and it's a signal to others to join him. It's going to be very hard for the RNC to walk away from this. So this will drag on. Whether foreign leaders recognise Biden actually will count for sh1t as to how this plays out.
    GA won't flip on a recount
    PA will go the certified vote
    On Arizona, there is something wrong with the 97% figure for reported ballots still being shown. That was the figure shown this morning, and would imply about 100k ballots outstanding. But nearly 50k were reported today and the figure hasn't changed.

    If half the outstanding ballots were reported today, then there are only about 50k yet to come and Trump will need a 40% lead in those ballots to catch up. That seems like a tall order. So far he has been achieving 20% or less.
    I have looked for more information and it seems the percentage was wrong before and is now close to correct. It looks as though about 115k ballots are still to come in Arizona, so Trump needs a 17% lead in those to catch up.I think that is bigger than what he has been getting so far, but not a lot bigger.
    Trying to be a bit more accurate, Trump would need about 18% in the remaining 116k (say) ballots, in contrast to the 13% he got in the last 127k. Obviously that's possible given that they may differ in location and type.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    HYUFD said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    What's the minimum size in terms of population before a people are "entitled" to a parliament?
    I can tell you that smaller countries than Scotland do exist as independent states.
    And England alone would still be the 26th largest country by population in the world and the 8th largest economy but we are still better and stronger together
    Spoken like a true remainer
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    .
    ping said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.

    I detest Trump, probably more so than 99% of the people on this site, but he got a hell of a lot of votes. The idea that Trump's kind of politics has been resoundingly thwarted is for the birds. I believe that if Trump has simply allowed Fauci and his colleagues to properly do their jobs then Trump would have almost certainly won the election.

    EVERYBODY should realise that the US could easily elect another person as malign as Trump, but next time he or she will likely be smoother and smarter. I'm delighted that Biden has been elected, but the warning signs about the fragility of the US politcal system are clearer than ever.
    Astute post. I think Biden is the aberration, not trump.

    Trumps key advantage was that he was the first US political actor to fully take advantage of Twitter. Others will follow - and use it even more effectively- and use the new media platforms that emerge to even greater effect.
    Sure. But not all will be sociopaths.
    AOC, for example.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Andy_JS said:

    OllyT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Unsurprisingly the liberals are already forgetting that 70m people just voted for Trump. Hopefully Biden and his staff aren't so stupid.


    Did the Trumptons pay any attention to that fact that Trump didn't even win the popular vote?
    The Dems can’t really complain about the electoral college system because whenever they’ve controlled all 3 branches of government they’ve chosen not to change it.
    You realise that constitutional change in the US requires a little more than just that ?
  • Labour are eating up the polls now. Bye Boris
  • This is what '97 felt like on our side of the political divide. Enjoy!
    Oh do fuck off.

    Congratulations to Biden but t.

    Don't be curmudgeonly.

    It's not the right time to be portentous about why Trump won in the first place. I could easily cite to you my friends on the left who loathed Hillary Clinton (with plenty of reason).

    Be gracious.
    No, those pleased he won need to be magnanimous. Those who lost need to be gracious.

    I wanted Trump to lose but this gloating new Red Dawn/anti Tory/left-modernist shit is winding me up.

    Partisanship drives partisanship. Lots of people should know better.
    Your response to me really is not appreciated. Grow up.
    Just ignore him mate. You’re 10x the human being he’ll ever be, you’ve got manners for a start.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Baroness Hoey congratulates the new President.

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1325134561152413697

    Well wait until Baroness Hoey sees this.


    You cannot see the knife in her other hand. He was lucky to get out of there alive.
    We often forget Her Majesty has served in the military.
    And her husband served in one of the Royal Navy's most complete naval victories.
    I hope he gets the associated medals shined more brilliantly.

    I don't like the habit of the royals to wear vast collections of undeserved medals. Nor generals for that matter.

    Rank is inevitable, but medals could just be awarded when truly merited.
    I think most medals are for being there, or long service. Not a huge number get awarded for particular deeds.
    Prince Philip, visiting Brazil, saw a highly decorated general. Intrigued, he asked in which conflict the general won those medals. ‘The Second World War,’ came the reply.

    ‘I didn’t know Brazil was in the war that long,’ said Philip.

    ‘Well, at least I didn’t get them for marrying my wife,’ retorted the general.
    Given what Philip did do in the war that was more than rude.
    Yes, I'm certain he would have won the Member First Class of the Order of the Brilliant Star in 1963 had he not been married to the queen...
    Yeah, particularly good weekend for having a laugh at surviving WW2 veterans. You fought for the country in a lot of full-on, shooting naval engagements?
    Who's laughing? I'm simply saying there's a whole bunch of medals he wouldn't have won from his military service alone. I mean, it's obviously true.
    Hear Hear , you will upset the nutters on here who live Spitfires and we won the war , look how many medals the dodgy Greek has. Bunch of parasites, he at least was in the war , what excuse do the rest of them have for acres of medals, did they collect Frosties tokens.
    The ironic thing is, malc, your whole Scotch secessionist schtick depends on archaic flim flam every bit as preposterous as the stuff you are on about. you think you and 5 million other bods (less than twice the population of Birmingham) are entitled to parliaments and referendums and independence and stuff, whereas the good people of Birmingham aren't, purely on the basis of a lot of pompous royal twattery and posh chaps arsing about on horses having battles in the distant historical past, cos that's how you get nations. Make your mind up.
    I am perfectly happy for Birmingham to be independent if it so wishes , my only beef is the English parliament preventing Scotland having democracy. I have nothing against any English person other than if they are preventing Scotland having democracy.
    Preventing Scotland having democracy? I recall a vote in 2014, a general election in 207 and 2019, control on law and education (education - need I say more). Democracy for the Scotland is blaming all of your troubles on Westminster
    Majority in 2020 and before that want a vote, it is being denied by the English parliament who think we are a colony. No troubles here sunshine we just want democracy , what are you unionists scared of.
This discussion has been closed.