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WH2020 – With the counts continuing in several key states Biden is not yet claiming victory – politi

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited November 2020 in General
imageWH2020 – With the counts continuing in several key states Biden is not yet claiming victory – politicalbetting.com

Based on what we have at the moment it looks more likely that Biden will be the next president than Trump.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,685
    First like Joe!
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Are there no comments, or are they not loading?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Ah, first.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,244
    Fifth.

    Like Trump's imagined column.
  • It's Joe! Bye Don!

    (I hope anyway, I suspect Trump will as difficult to shift as an ex with the clap. Those armed vigilantes at the counts scare me.)

    Have many other prominent GOPers said that Trump has won?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    FPT: "There was one poster - sorry I forget the name - who predicted a 269-269 tie that not so long ago looked like being spot on (not just the final number, but every individual state race) except for NE2. Now Biden looks like getting PA and possibly GA, it doesn't look quite as good, but I'd say whoever it was emerges with credit."


    It was Drutt.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    TimT said:

    Are there no comments, or are they not loading?

    The comments are still being counted :smile:
    Looking mighty close in GA.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,685
    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?
  • Stocky said:

    FPT: "There was one poster - sorry I forget the name - who predicted a 269-269 tie that not so long ago looked like being spot on (not just the final number, but every individual state race) except for NE2. Now Biden looks like getting PA and possibly GA, it doesn't look quite as good, but I'd say whoever it was emerges with credit."


    It was Drutt.

    I tipped it at 66/1 back in September, but because of my legendary modesty I don't like to mention it much.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
  • FPT

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    All of a sudden, Trump seems like a figure of ridicule. Safe to mock, as his power over us has collapsed.

    As goes Trump, so will Boris/Cummings/Brexit.

    They could be finished with the counting of the next US Presidential election before we have the chance to vote against Johnson/Cummings. Whatever they want to do on Brexit will long since have happened.
    We already have de jure Brexit, and we are about to get de facto Brexit. But “Brexit” as a force with any driving vitality is over.

    Re-integration (though not rejoining) will be the theme of the 2020s.
    For the Lib Dem membership. No-one else will want to hear about it.
    Rejoin is not LD policy, at least at present, though close alignment is.
    If Remainers had united around EFTA or 'Norway for Now' instead of futile nonsense we might have had a sane outcome. The opportunity is still there to unite gradualist Brexiteers and Remainers behind a 'join EFTA' option.

    Ignoring your “sore winner” snipe at Remainers, the “join EFTA (or something that looks very much like EFTA)” campaign effectively starts 1 January.

    However it will take place in think tanks and the bowels of Whitehall rather than being an overtly public campaign.

    By 2024 it will be considered simple common sense. I don’t expect “Brexit” to dominate those elections.
    A Biden win certainly makes it far more likely Boris will compromise with the EU to get a FTA with no US deal in the offing from Biden unless he does so
    No, we will compromise because No Deal is impossible for us to implement on New Year's Day. So we have to have a deal. And the deal on offer is the current deal in a pretty dress and a new name.
    Would not that be a disgraceful betrayal of everything Leavers voted for?

    Asking for a friend.
    Yes.

    Rochdale is projecting what he wants to happen.

    There will almost certainly be a deal because it is in both parties interests but it won't be what we have now.
    I am stating - not predicting - that there has to be a deal. Because we cannot exit on No Deal or indeed any significant variance of what we have now due to our inaction in creating the capability to separate ourselves off. We cannot enter into customs standards and tariffs checks on 1st January which means we will have to continue with the existing EU standards and tariffs unless we want to extend which we legally cannot do.

    What I wanted was for us to join EFTA and be a player. Instead we will be an addendum.
    We absolutely can go to No Deal if that is what we choose to do. If there's some disruption we can live with that and do whatever is required to cope.

    You are talking naively about tariff checks as if they need to happen, they don't. If we have no deal and the cost of doing tariff checks is more than the benefit of doing them then simply not doing them or streamlining them is an alternative option you are ignoring.
    "Some disruption". OK. We start doing customs checks from 1st January on Food & Drink with no deal. That's according to what this government have decreed.
    The customs agents to check the forms don't exist
    The customs infrastructure to house the customs agents doesn't exist
    The computer system to process the forms doesn't exist
    The integration of the computer system into haulier's systems doesn't exist

    Yet you claim that we absolutely can do all of this if we choose. How? Specifics please.

    At the very least we will go "No Deal" but not actually change anything. Because it will take a long time to do all of the above. Until we do, we keep with the EU. And yet according to the government we won't extend any of the existing arrangements beyond midnight on New Year's Eve.

    As we cannot go no deal at 00:01 on 1st January we therefore must have a deal. And we know what is on the table. A choice of names and a choice of pretty frocks and lipsticks for the pig.
    If on 1 January 2021 we have left with No Deal and technical reasons mean we can't do customs checks then the solution is simple: don't do the customs checks!

    You are making out like this is an impossibility. It is entirely possible.

    As for your claim nothing will have changed you are wrong. What will have changed is we are not doing checks because we don't want to, rather than not doing them because we are not allowed to.

    Just because we are allowed to do checks doesn't mean we will either want to do them or be obliged to do them. But it will be our choice going forwards, nobody else's.
    Yes, thats the having the right to have babies even if we won't have babies option. I've been saying this for ages. We will gain the Sovereign Right to impose checks and do different deals and stop people coming in. The EU won't be making us any more.

    And what will we do with that sovereign choice? Not do checks, not do deals, let people come in. But what you have described isn't No Deal. No deal means we *have* to do checks. What you've described to tell me I am wrong is exactly what I am saying will happen.

    A deal. That allows us to diverge from the EEA and CU at a point in the future. Which will always be off in the future somewhere. We won't be in the EU or EEA or CU. We'll have a UKEU FTA which directly replicates the EEA and CU. Thats literally all we can do now. Even you have just said that.

    The right to have babies. Even though we can't have babies. We didn't even buy the box to let the foetus gestate in.
    No deal doesn't mean we have to do checks. You are categorically wrong on this point.

    We can agree a deal to avoid checks (though actually most of the checks discussed aren't affected by whether is a deal or not actually). Or we could choose to unilaterally delay or not do checks.

    If we choose to unilaterally not do them then that is our choice. That's not a deal. It also means we can change that unilaterally if of when we choose to do so.

    That's not saying we can't have babies. It's saying we may choose to have babies in the future but for now we are choosing to use a condom because it suits us to do so for now.
  • If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    Moscow looks pretty in winter.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    It's Joe! Bye Don!

    (I hope anyway, I suspect Trump will as difficult to shift as an ex with the clap. Those armed vigilantes at the counts scare me.)

    Have many other prominent GOPers said that Trump has won?

    Not many have put their heads above the water yet. Most so far are saying "count all the votes". I think they can read the numbers same as everyone else and know there is no way through and using the courts isn't an option. They've more than likely held the Senate and made decent gains in the House so they know Biden won't be able to pack the court without their consent and I imagine that's their main concern, not trashing their reputations for no reason.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Pray this doesn’t hinge on GA in any way shape or form. This is going to be so close.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    Stocky said:

    FPT: "There was one poster - sorry I forget the name - who predicted a 269-269 tie that not so long ago looked like being spot on (not just the final number, but every individual state race) except for NE2. Now Biden looks like getting PA and possibly GA, it doesn't look quite as good, but I'd say whoever it was emerges with credit."


    It was Drutt.

    I tipped it at 66/1 back in September, but because of my legendary modesty I don't like to mention it much.
    Nice one, I remember that. No - that wasn`t what wes being refered to, @Drutt `s whole electoral map was spot on if I recall.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
  • It's Joe! Bye Don!

    (I hope anyway, I suspect Trump will as difficult to shift as an ex with the clap. Those armed vigilantes at the counts scare me.)

    Have many other prominent GOPers said that Trump has won?

    Armed vigilantes? To think, we’d get concerned if it was people wearing rosettes....
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited November 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    It's his illegitimate chances I'm more worried about at this point, such as halting counts with violence and/or bent court rulings.
  • Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    Not going to the courts? It does seem stacked against him but things could still go his way, though most pundits dont give him much chance.
    PA is highly likely to go Biden, however there is confusion if the remaining votes are 700k or 488k, if it is 488 BIden needs a higher % then if its 700k. However current split of mail in votes is higher enough even for the 488k remaining.

    NV fair bit unknown in there but again people think its a tall ask for Trump to win

    AZ should not have been called but again most leaning its too far for Trump. Some recently claims by GOP about registered on they day might swing it for Trump, others not so impressed by that.

    So to answer not really, but with counts still to come you never know, but Biden camp likely feeling more confident.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,685
    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    Are there no comments, or are they not loading?

    The comments are still being counted :smile:
    Looking mighty close in GA.
    Yebbut... PA
  • Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    He will be allowed to but he'll be a loser. Americans don't like losers or retreads.

    The moment the counting stops the GOP starts looking forwards not backwards.
  • Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    The GOP establishment wouldn’t like it. The problem is it isn’t the GOP establishment who choose the nominee. It’ll be the base and at this moment in time they are in love with Trump. That may change over time but from where we’re standing at the moment you can’t count him out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,133

    Scott_xP said:
    Pray this doesn’t hinge on GA in any way shape or form. This is going to be so close.
    If Trump holds on in Pennsylvania and overtakes Biden in Nevada or Arizona it would come down to GA but more likely if Biden won GA it would just confirm his win and increase his EC margin not be the tipping point
  • It's Joe! Bye Don!

    (I hope anyway, I suspect Trump will as difficult to shift as an ex with the clap. Those armed vigilantes at the counts scare me.)

    Have many other prominent GOPers said that Trump has won?

    Armed vigilantes? To think, we’d get concerned if it was people wearing rosettes....
    Not just rosettes, remember there was a big debate here about the Brexit partys voting arrow logo giving them a subliminal advantage.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    How the fuck would they stop him? He's proven himself a relentless and stunningly effective campaigner that can energise the bible thumpers, conspiraloons and other assorted white trash like nobody else.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    They didn't want to allow him to run the first time. He smashed his way past a huge and varied primary field, entirely against expectations. I'm not sure how easy it would be to ban him from re-entering if he wanted to - possibly would require a specific RNC ruling that defeated presidential candidates need special permission from the Party to run again.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,603
    Mal557 said:

    Is Arizona really as tight as 50/50? I know Trumps closing and has a chance but that much? If Trump wins I suspect he will not be talking to Murdoch for a while for letting the Fox calling it for Biden stand!



    I don't know. I've done two models - one by county and the other by mail-in. One gives Arizona to Biden by 76K, the other to Trump by 70K.
    So I just went 50/50.

    Betfair implies 75/25 for Biden.
    Putting 75% for Arizona on my model gives Biden an overall 92.5% chance i.e. 1.08.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited November 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Jail?

    Orange man in the orange boiler suit.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    Can't see how they could stop him running for the GOP nomination in 2024 if he wants to.

    Unless, of course, he is in jail!
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,680
    edited November 2020

    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    The GOP establishment wouldn’t like it. The problem is it isn’t the GOP establishment who choose the nominee. It’ll be the base and at this moment in time they are in love with Trump. That may change over time but from where we’re standing at the moment you can’t count him out.
    Will he not be barred if he spends some time in jail? :smile:
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    How the fuck would they stop him? He's proven himself a relentless and stunningly effective campaigner that can energise the bible thumpers, conspiraloons and other assorted white trash like nobody else.
    They could find someone even more loony from the QAnon fringe?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,603
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Pray this doesn’t hinge on GA in any way shape or form. This is going to be so close.
    If Trump holds on in Pennsylvania and overtakes Biden in Nevada or Arizona it would come down to GA but more likely if Biden won GA it would just confirm his win and increase his EC margin not be the tipping point
    I've got probabilities for all those scenarios if you'd like to hear them :)
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Pray this doesn’t hinge on GA in any way shape or form. This is going to be so close.
    If Trump holds on in Pennsylvania and overtakes Biden in Nevada or Arizona it would come down to GA but more likely if Biden won GA it would just confirm his win and increase his EC margin not be the tipping point
    I'm very sure Biden will win NV now , with still some postals in Clark County as well as same day drop off votes left, It would be a miracle if those favoured Trump so I expect the current 7000 lead there for Biden to grow. AZ really does seem close now and could well stay with Trump. So if Biden wins GA and NV he's there regardless of PA. If Trump holds AZ and GA then its all down to PA
  • Just for a bit of fun, I've divided up the 538 electors to the 50 States plus DC by their 2010 Census population:

    California 65
    Texas 44
    New York 34
    Florida 33
    Illinois 22
    Pennsylvania 22
    Ohio 20
    Michigan 17
    Georgia 17
    North Carolina 17
    New Jersey 15
    Virginia 14
    Washington 12
    Massachusetts 11
    Indiana 11
    Arizona 11
    Tennessee 11
    Missouri 10
    Maryland 10
    Wisconsin 10
    Minnesota 9
    Colorado 9
    Alabama 8
    South Carolina 8
    Louisiana 8
    Kentucky 8
    Oregon 7
    Oklahoma 7
    Connecticut 6
    Iowa 5
    Mississippi 5
    Arkansas 5
    Kansas 5
    Utah 5
    Nevada 5
    New Mexico 4
    West Virginia 3
    Nebraska 3
    Idaho 3
    Hawaii 2
    Maine 2
    New Hampshire 2
    Rhode Island 2
    Montana 2
    Delaware 2
    South Dakota 1
    Alaska 1
    North Dakota 1
    Vermont 1
    District of Columbia 1
    Wyoming 1
    USA 538

    Remember, this is just for a bit of fun!
  • It's Joe! Bye Don!

    (I hope anyway, I suspect Trump will as difficult to shift as an ex with the clap. Those armed vigilantes at the counts scare me.)

    Have many other prominent GOPers said that Trump has won?

    Armed vigilantes? To think, we’d get concerned if it was people wearing rosettes....
    Which reminds me of this, the world's worst burlesque show.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,603
    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes - I think it is 52-48.

    Very tiny chance in theory that Dems can get to 50-50 with run-off and still counting. But they won't.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    FTPT
    Mal557 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biden is 2.8% behind in Pennsylvania with 89% in
    Trump is 2.6% behind in Arizona with 86% in.

    PA Timing of results:The remaining mail ballots are expected to favor Democrats. PA

    AZ Timing of results:Officials in Maricopa County, which includes Phoenix, said they would release another results update after 9 p.m. Eastern.

    Arizona's remaining results are unlikely to be as skewed as Pennsylvania given the greater propensity for mail in voting in Arizona by both sides ?

    From what I have been reading is it will still lean Biden so people are expecting a narrowing then a slight Biden gain again. "Experts" feel its going to be close but remain a Biden flip

    PA still quite strongly looking to be a Biden win but maybe not quite by the margin talked about yesterday.

    For the record, my forecast on PA was Biden winning by 97,480.

    I was (quite reasonably) mocked and (rather less reasonably) praised in equal measure on here for my rather silly over-precision.

    In any case, happy to stand by the forecast and see where I land!!
    Around 100,000 in PA looks about right to me perhaps slightly less, I think the projections of 200,00 etc are way too high
    763311 ballots outstanding

    Say they split 65/35 for Biden then that gives
    496,152 Biden votes
    267,158 Trump votes

    For Biden +228,994

    NYTimes currently has
    Trump 3,215,969
    Biden 3,051,555

    Add 228,994 to Biden and you get
    Trump 3,215,969
    Biden 3,280,549

    For a 65k win

    But 65/35 is far too low. The most conservative split I would give is 70/30 for a Biden +305,323 Mail in margin. Giving an overall winning margin of 141k

  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Mal557 said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
    If the GOP holds the Senate, gets close in the House, and loses Donald Trump, that would indeed be an excellent night for the party ...
  • Alistair said:

    FTPT

    Mal557 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biden is 2.8% behind in Pennsylvania with 89% in
    Trump is 2.6% behind in Arizona with 86% in.

    PA Timing of results:The remaining mail ballots are expected to favor Democrats. PA

    AZ Timing of results:Officials in Maricopa County, which includes Phoenix, said they would release another results update after 9 p.m. Eastern.

    Arizona's remaining results are unlikely to be as skewed as Pennsylvania given the greater propensity for mail in voting in Arizona by both sides ?

    From what I have been reading is it will still lean Biden so people are expecting a narrowing then a slight Biden gain again. "Experts" feel its going to be close but remain a Biden flip

    PA still quite strongly looking to be a Biden win but maybe not quite by the margin talked about yesterday.

    For the record, my forecast on PA was Biden winning by 97,480.

    I was (quite reasonably) mocked and (rather less reasonably) praised in equal measure on here for my rather silly over-precision.

    In any case, happy to stand by the forecast and see where I land!!
    Around 100,000 in PA looks about right to me perhaps slightly less, I think the projections of 200,00 etc are way too high
    763311 ballots outstanding

    Say they split 65/35 for Biden then that gives
    496,152 Biden votes
    267,158 Trump votes

    For Biden +228,994

    NYTimes currently has
    Trump 3,215,969
    Biden 3,051,555

    Add 228,994 to Biden and you get
    Trump 3,215,969
    Biden 3,280,549

    For a 65k win

    But 65/35 is far too low. The most conservative split I would give is 70/30 for a Biden +305,323 Mail in margin. Giving an overall winning margin of 141k

    I just wish they'd hurry up. Be good to see this called.

    If they'd counted the mail in ballots first then it would be the same result but would have been called much, much quicker.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,133
    edited November 2020
    TimT said:

    Mal557 said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
    If the GOP holds the Senate, gets close in the House, and loses Donald Trump, that would indeed be an excellent night for the party ...
    Or it could foretell they will be out of the White House for a generation, as happened after 1980 when Carter was the last President to lose office after only 1 term of his party in the White House.

    It was not until Bill Clinton in 1992 that the Democrats won a presidential election again
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Martha McSally has now lost two Senate seats in two successive elections in the same state. Presumably a unique "achievement"?
  • TimT said:

    Mal557 said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
    If the GOP holds the Senate, gets close in the House, and loses Donald Trump, that would indeed be an excellent night for the party ...
    Agree. The next move is McConnell’s and given how savvy he has proven I think he will make a good play of it.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,603
    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    He's another Berlusconi but with more hair.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi

    The similarities are uncanny.
  • HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    Mal557 said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
    If the GOP holds the Senate, gets close in the House, and loses Donald Trump, that would indeed be an excellent night for the party ...
    Or it could foretell they will be out of the White House for a generation, as happened in 1980 when Carter was the last President to lose office after only 1 term of his party in the White House
    A generation?

    But America doesn't vote for the Presidency after six years.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    How the fuck would they stop him? He's proven himself a relentless and stunningly effective campaigner that can energise the bible thumpers, conspiraloons and other assorted white trash like nobody else.
    They could find someone even more loony from the QAnon fringe?
    I think/hope a lot of GOP will decide they have had enough with their experiment with fascism/populism. I suspect they will look the other way when the inevitable investigations into Trump's affairs lead to prosecutions. I don't know whether the US has the equivalent of our "suspended sentences" but it might at least shut him and his repulsive spawn for a while.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    He has a chance (talking my own book here). I'm also assuming NC is called for Trump

    He has a 50/50 chance of winning AZ and NV, and possibly better given the Republicans confidence.

    GA looks as though it is on a knife edge.

    That effectively leaves PA. Alistair is confident it will be Trump but I am less so. Look at the NYT:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-pennsylvania.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020&region=TOP_BANNER&context=election_recirc

    Philly has 70% in but all the other counties with 70-80% counted are all Republican and all bar one strongholds. They total 357K votes so far vs Philly's 576K. Taking a 77% average, that means there are over 100K votes left here in mainly Republican strongholds

    Then go down to the 80-90% block in. Republican counties at 651K vs Democrat counties at 1.03m. Caveats on both sides - there are more counties with lower R leads but also the three big D counties have much lower leads than Philly.

    Then let's do the 90-95% block. All are Republican and total 735K votes. All sit within the 93-95% count range and some are not strongholds but a few are. If you take an average of 94%, that means there are 47K votes out there, which potentially could be critical.

    If you then look at all the other counties that are below the "greater than 98%", all bar one are Republican and they are all strongly Republican. Roughly they have 910K votes counted so far for the R counties vs 492K for the D (Montgomery). Trump might be able to eek out another 15-20K votes advantage from there.

    One critical point - some of these counties (and they were Republican) started ALL counting late, not just postal ballots so it is likely their splits to come are not as D-friendly as you would think.

    DYOR
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    Not going to the courts? It does seem stacked against him but things could still go his way, though most pundits dont give him much chance.
    PA is highly likely to go Biden, however there is confusion if the remaining votes are 700k or 488k, if it is 488 BIden needs a higher % then if its 700k. However current split of mail in votes is higher enough even for the 488k remaining.

    NV fair bit unknown in there but again people think its a tall ask for Trump to win

    AZ should not have been called but again most leaning its too far for Trump. Some recently claims by GOP about registered on they day might swing it for Trump, others not so impressed by that.

    So to answer not really, but with counts still to come you never know, but Biden camp likely feeling more confident.
    Where are you seeing the 488k figure. If it's 488k then Biden is in trouble

    On the offical site: https://www.votespa.com/About-Elections/Pages/Counting-Dashboard.aspx it is 763k
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    Mal557 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biden is 2.8% behind in Pennsylvania with 89% in
    Trump is 2.6% behind in Arizona with 86% in.

    PA Timing of results:The remaining mail ballots are expected to favor Democrats. PA

    AZ Timing of results:Officials in Maricopa County, which includes Phoenix, said they would release another results update after 9 p.m. Eastern.

    Arizona's remaining results are unlikely to be as skewed as Pennsylvania given the greater propensity for mail in voting in Arizona by both sides ?

    From what I have been reading is it will still lean Biden so people are expecting a narrowing then a slight Biden gain again. "Experts" feel its going to be close but remain a Biden flip

    PA still quite strongly looking to be a Biden win but maybe not quite by the margin talked about yesterday.

    For the record, my forecast on PA was Biden winning by 97,480.

    I was (quite reasonably) mocked and (rather less reasonably) praised in equal measure on here for my rather silly over-precision.

    In any case, happy to stand by the forecast and see where I land!!
    Around 100,000 in PA looks about right to me perhaps slightly less, I think the projections of 200,00 etc are way too high
    763311 ballots outstanding

    Say they split 65/35 for Biden then that gives
    496,152 Biden votes
    267,158 Trump votes

    For Biden +228,994

    NYTimes currently has
    Trump 3,215,969
    Biden 3,051,555

    Add 228,994 to Biden and you get
    Trump 3,215,969
    Biden 3,280,549

    For a 65k win

    But 65/35 is far too low. The most conservative split I would give is 70/30 for a Biden +305,323 Mail in margin. Giving an overall winning margin of 141k

    I just wish they'd hurry up. Be good to see this called.

    If they'd counted the mail in ballots first then it would be the same result but would have been called much, much quicker.
    Yes, it's absolute agony, the wait. Come on FFS.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376

    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    Can't see how they could stop him running for the GOP nomination in 2024 if he wants to.

    Unless, of course, he is in jail!
    Could he run for the nomination from prison?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Martha McSally has now lost two Senate seats in two successive elections in the same state. Presumably a unique "achievement"?

    Absolutely inexplicable choice by the Arizona GOP.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Running and winning again would be the only salve for his huge, loser butt-hurtiness. Besides from all appearances Trump actually appears to enjoy campaigning, probably something to do with the uncritical adulation.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    Barnesian said:

    Mal557 said:

    Is Arizona really as tight as 50/50? I know Trumps closing and has a chance but that much? If Trump wins I suspect he will not be talking to Murdoch for a while for letting the Fox calling it for Biden stand!



    I don't know. I've done two models - one by county and the other by mail-in. One gives Arizona to Biden by 76K, the other to Trump by 70K.
    So I just went 50/50.

    Betfair implies 75/25 for Biden.
    Putting 75% for Arizona on my model gives Biden an overall 92.5% chance i.e. 1.08.

    Thanks for that, is your mail in model based on AZ mail in trends in this election? I ask as AZ has had mail in votes for a long time I think so is much more of the AZ voters method wihch may mean many republicans vote that way as well as Dems unlike a lot of other states where mail in has been very much a 2020 phenomenon heavily favouring Dems.
    I supsect your model will be based on AZ patterns of course, knowing your detail to these things but just wanted to ask as I had forgotten AZ has a long tradition of mail in votes
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    Mal557 said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
    If the GOP holds the Senate, gets close in the House, and loses Donald Trump, that would indeed be an excellent night for the party ...
    Or it could foretell they will be out of the White House for a generation, as happened after 1980 when Carter was the last President to lose office after only 1 term of his party in the White House.

    It was not until Bill Clinton in 1992 that the Democrats won a presidential election again
    12 years is a generation now? I thought teen pregnancies were on the down now ...
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    MrEd said:

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    He has a chance (talking my own book here). I'm also assuming NC is called for Trump

    He has a 50/50 chance of winning AZ and NV, and possibly better given the Republicans confidence.

    GA looks as though it is on a knife edge.

    That effectively leaves PA. Alistair is confident it will be Trump but I am less so. Look at the NYT:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-pennsylvania.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020&region=TOP_BANNER&context=election_recirc

    Philly has 70% in but all the other counties with 70-80% counted are all Republican and all bar one strongholds. They total 357K votes so far vs Philly's 576K. Taking a 77% average, that means there are over 100K votes left here in mainly Republican strongholds

    Then go down to the 80-90% block in. Republican counties at 651K vs Democrat counties at 1.03m. Caveats on both sides - there are more counties with lower R leads but also the three big D counties have much lower leads than Philly.

    Then let's do the 90-95% block. All are Republican and total 735K votes. All sit within the 93-95% count range and some are not strongholds but a few are. If you take an average of 94%, that means there are 47K votes out there, which potentially could be critical.

    If you then look at all the other counties that are below the "greater than 98%", all bar one are Republican and they are all strongly Republican. Roughly they have 910K votes counted so far for the R counties vs 492K for the D (Montgomery). Trump might be able to eek out another 15-20K votes advantage from there.

    One critical point - some of these counties (and they were Republican) started ALL counting late, not just postal ballots so it is likely their splits to come are not as D-friendly as you would think.

    DYOR
    MrEd said:

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    He has a chance (talking my own book here). I'm also assuming NC is called for Trump

    He has a 50/50 chance of winning AZ and NV, and possibly better given the Republicans confidence.

    GA looks as though it is on a knife edge.

    That effectively leaves PA. Alistair is confident it will be Trump but I am less so. Look at the NYT:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-pennsylvania.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020&region=TOP_BANNER&context=election_recirc

    Philly has 70% in but all the other counties with 70-80% counted are all Republican and all bar one strongholds. They total 357K votes so far vs Philly's 576K. Taking a 77% average, that means there are over 100K votes left here in mainly Republican strongholds

    Then go down to the 80-90% block in. Republican counties at 651K vs Democrat counties at 1.03m. Caveats on both sides - there are more counties with lower R leads but also the three big D counties have much lower leads than Philly.

    Then let's do the 90-95% block. All are Republican and total 735K votes. All sit within the 93-95% count range and some are not strongholds but a few are. If you take an average of 94%, that means there are 47K votes out there, which potentially could be critical.

    If you then look at all the other counties that are below the "greater than 98%", all bar one are Republican and they are all strongly Republican. Roughly they have 910K votes counted so far for the R counties vs 492K for the D (Montgomery). Trump might be able to eek out another 15-20K votes advantage from there.

    One critical point - some of these counties (and they were Republican) started ALL counting late, not just postal ballots so it is likely their splits to come are not as D-friendly as you would think.

    DYOR
    Just one extra bit to add: in the 80-90% range, Allegheny is 89% in so I reckon in that band, the Democrat counties have c. 155K votes to come and the Rs 125K
  • No deal doesn't mean we have to do checks. You are categorically wrong on this point.

    We can agree a deal to avoid checks (though actually most of the checks discussed aren't affected by whether is a deal or not actually). Or we could choose to unilaterally delay or not do checks.

    If we choose to unilaterally not do them then that is our choice. That's not a deal. It also means we can change that unilaterally if of when we choose to do so.

    That's not saying we can't have babies. It's saying we may choose to have babies in the future but for now we are choosing to use a condom because it suits us to do so for now.

    Doing customs checks is a requirement of WTO Rules - which is what "No Deal" means in the context of Brexit. So unless we are not going WTO then we will have to do checks which we cannot do.

    What you think is frankly not relevant to reality. Both the UK and EU negotiators know reality which is why the UK is rapidly heading towards a deal. Back in the day you could buy a Toyota Aygo or a Citroen C1 or a Peugeot 107 built on the same line in the same factory. All three were the literal same car - same panels, same chassis, same engine, different badge. We are about to trade in our 2006 C1 and get a 2006 Aygo and claim its a completely different car.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    edited November 2020
    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    The Republicans have held 49 Senate seats for certain.

    North Carolina remains to be declared, but is thought a probable Republican hold. Both Georgia Senate seats will go to a run off, but the Republicans will be favourites, given that their overall vote share in Senate contests exceeds that of the Democrats.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,685

    HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    Mal557 said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
    If the GOP holds the Senate, gets close in the House, and loses Donald Trump, that would indeed be an excellent night for the party ...
    Or it could foretell they will be out of the White House for a generation, as happened in 1980 when Carter was the last President to lose office after only 1 term of his party in the White House
    A generation?

    But America doesn't vote for the Presidency after six years.
    Very good. But even @HYUFD's 'generation' was only 12 years (1980 - 1992).
  • TimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    Mal557 said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
    If the GOP holds the Senate, gets close in the House, and loses Donald Trump, that would indeed be an excellent night for the party ...
    Or it could foretell they will be out of the White House for a generation, as happened after 1980 when Carter was the last President to lose office after only 1 term of his party in the White House.

    It was not until Bill Clinton in 1992 that the Democrats won a presidential election again
    12 years is a generation now? I thought teen pregnancies were on the down now ...
    Scotland has redefined a generation.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Mal557 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Mal557 said:

    Is Arizona really as tight as 50/50? I know Trumps closing and has a chance but that much? If Trump wins I suspect he will not be talking to Murdoch for a while for letting the Fox calling it for Biden stand!



    I don't know. I've done two models - one by county and the other by mail-in. One gives Arizona to Biden by 76K, the other to Trump by 70K.
    So I just went 50/50.

    Betfair implies 75/25 for Biden.
    Putting 75% for Arizona on my model gives Biden an overall 92.5% chance i.e. 1.08.

    Thanks for that, is your mail in model based on AZ mail in trends in this election? I ask as AZ has had mail in votes for a long time I think so is much more of the AZ voters method wihch may mean many republicans vote that way as well as Dems unlike a lot of other states where mail in has been very much a 2020 phenomenon heavily favouring Dems.
    I supsect your model will be based on AZ patterns of course, knowing your detail to these things but just wanted to ask as I had forgotten AZ has a long tradition of mail in votes
    One commentator also noted that there is a difference in the split even within the mail in votes, between those mail-in ballots returned earlier (heavily pro Biden), and those returned later in the campaign (more favorable to Trump)
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 435
    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    Mal557 said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
    If the GOP holds the Senate, gets close in the House, and loses Donald Trump, that would indeed be an excellent night for the party ...
    Or it could foretell they will be out of the White House for a generation, as happened after 1980 when Carter was the last President to lose office after only 1 term of his party in the White House.

    It was not until Bill Clinton in 1992 that the Democrats won a presidential election again
    12 years is a generation now? I thought teen pregnancies were on the down now ...
    In fairness, 12 years isn't a teen pregnancy.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    How the fuck would they stop him? He's proven himself a relentless and stunningly effective campaigner that can energise the bible thumpers, conspiraloons and other assorted white trash like nobody else.
    They could find someone even more loony from the QAnon fringe?
    I think/hope a lot of GOP will decide they have had enough with their experiment with fascism/populism. I suspect they will look the other way when the inevitable investigations into Trump's affairs lead to prosecutions. I don't know whether the US has the equivalent of our "suspended sentences" but it might at least shut him and his repulsive spawn for a while.
    He is a symptom not the disease. Millions of Americans believe QAnon stuff and it could be high tens of millions by the next election, not because of Trump but because social media driven fake news is addictive.

    Why live in a world where everything is complicated, difficult and boring, when you can live in one that is both exciting and easy to fix if only your enemies would let you?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376

    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    How the fuck would they stop him? He's proven himself a relentless and stunningly effective campaigner that can energise the bible thumpers, conspiraloons and other assorted white trash like nobody else.
    They could find someone even more loony from the QAnon fringe?
    I think/hope a lot of GOP will decide they have had enough with their experiment with fascism/populism. I suspect they will look the other way when the inevitable investigations into Trump's affairs lead to prosecutions. I don't know whether the US has the equivalent of our "suspended sentences" but it might at least shut him and his repulsive spawn for a while.
    The Republicans know that elections are won and lost in the mid-West for the time being, and will pitch their appeal to blue collar workers there, accordingly.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Scott_xP said:
    Pray this doesn’t hinge on GA in any way shape or form. This is going to be so close.
    Biden requires a lead of about 9% in remaining ballots.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    MrEd said:

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    He has a chance (talking my own book here). I'm also assuming NC is called for Trump

    He has a 50/50 chance of winning AZ and NV, and possibly better given the Republicans confidence.

    GA looks as though it is on a knife edge.

    That effectively leaves PA. Alistair is confident it will be Trump but I am less so. Look at the NYT:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-pennsylvania.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020&region=TOP_BANNER&context=election_recirc

    Philly has 70% in but all the other counties with 70-80% counted are all Republican and all bar one strongholds. They total 357K votes so far vs Philly's 576K. Taking a 77% average, that means there are over 100K votes left here in mainly Republican strongholds

    Then go down to the 80-90% block in. Republican counties at 651K vs Democrat counties at 1.03m. Caveats on both sides - there are more counties with lower R leads but also the three big D counties have much lower leads than Philly.

    Then let's do the 90-95% block. All are Republican and total 735K votes. All sit within the 93-95% count range and some are not strongholds but a few are. If you take an average of 94%, that means there are 47K votes out there, which potentially could be critical.

    If you then look at all the other counties that are below the "greater than 98%", all bar one are Republican and they are all strongly Republican. Roughly they have 910K votes counted so far for the R counties vs 492K for the D (Montgomery). Trump might be able to eek out another 15-20K votes advantage from there.

    One critical point - some of these counties (and they were Republican) started ALL counting late, not just postal ballots so it is likely their splits to come are not as D-friendly as you would think.

    DYOR
    I don't agree with the 50/50 on Nevada, , once it was confirmed by the county yesterday that a good size batch of the votes still to be counted there are pre election day mail in ballots in Clark County, which will favour Dems heavily as they have all along, that to me will outweigh any drop in mail box votes that are also outanding. Washoe results are not breaking enough for Trump and any tiny amounts left from the rurals wont make any difference.

    Although he's only 7000 behind there Trump needed to be ahead after all on the day votes were counted. It will be close but at best I'd give him 15% there now. I only see the 7000 increasing quite a bit now. So I'm not totally discounting your path for Trump, just saying its not 50/50 in Nevada
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    He has a chance (talking my own book here). I'm also assuming NC is called for Trump

    He has a 50/50 chance of winning AZ and NV, and possibly better given the Republicans confidence.

    GA looks as though it is on a knife edge.

    That effectively leaves PA. Alistair is confident it will be Trump but I am less so. Look at the NYT:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-pennsylvania.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020&region=TOP_BANNER&context=election_recirc

    Philly has 70% in but all the other counties with 70-80% counted are all Republican and all bar one strongholds. They total 357K votes so far vs Philly's 576K. Taking a 77% average, that means there are over 100K votes left here in mainly Republican strongholds

    Then go down to the 80-90% block in. Republican counties at 651K vs Democrat counties at 1.03m. Caveats on both sides - there are more counties with lower R leads but also the three big D counties have much lower leads than Philly.

    Then let's do the 90-95% block. All are Republican and total 735K votes. All sit within the 93-95% count range and some are not strongholds but a few are. If you take an average of 94%, that means there are 47K votes out there, which potentially could be critical.

    If you then look at all the other counties that are below the "greater than 98%", all bar one are Republican and they are all strongly Republican. Roughly they have 910K votes counted so far for the R counties vs 492K for the D (Montgomery). Trump might be able to eek out another 15-20K votes advantage from there.

    One critical point - some of these counties (and they were Republican) started ALL counting late, not just postal ballots so it is likely their splits to come are not as D-friendly as you would think.

    DYOR
    MrEd said:

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    He has a chance (talking my own book here). I'm also assuming NC is called for Trump

    He has a 50/50 chance of winning AZ and NV, and possibly better given the Republicans confidence.

    GA looks as though it is on a knife edge.

    That effectively leaves PA. Alistair is confident it will be Trump but I am less so. Look at the NYT:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-pennsylvania.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020&region=TOP_BANNER&context=election_recirc

    Philly has 70% in but all the other counties with 70-80% counted are all Republican and all bar one strongholds. They total 357K votes so far vs Philly's 576K. Taking a 77% average, that means there are over 100K votes left here in mainly Republican strongholds

    Then go down to the 80-90% block in. Republican counties at 651K vs Democrat counties at 1.03m. Caveats on both sides - there are more counties with lower R leads but also the three big D counties have much lower leads than Philly.

    Then let's do the 90-95% block. All are Republican and total 735K votes. All sit within the 93-95% count range and some are not strongholds but a few are. If you take an average of 94%, that means there are 47K votes out there, which potentially could be critical.

    If you then look at all the other counties that are below the "greater than 98%", all bar one are Republican and they are all strongly Republican. Roughly they have 910K votes counted so far for the R counties vs 492K for the D (Montgomery). Trump might be able to eek out another 15-20K votes advantage from there.

    One critical point - some of these counties (and they were Republican) started ALL counting late, not just postal ballots so it is likely their splits to come are not as D-friendly as you would think.

    DYOR
    Just one extra bit to add: in the 80-90% range, Allegheny is 89% in so I reckon in that band, the Democrat counties have c. 155K votes to come and the Rs 125K
    You are misreading what is happening. Almost all on the day vote has been counted (Clarion still has a lot to count). The remaining percentage figures the NY Times is reporting is all mail ballot. Mail ballots split Trump no matter how red the county.

    There is no Trump advantage to any county still to count mail ballots, the only question is how big Biden's lead is in each counties VBM figure.
  • No deal doesn't mean we have to do checks. You are categorically wrong on this point.

    We can agree a deal to avoid checks (though actually most of the checks discussed aren't affected by whether is a deal or not actually). Or we could choose to unilaterally delay or not do checks.

    If we choose to unilaterally not do them then that is our choice. That's not a deal. It also means we can change that unilaterally if of when we choose to do so.

    That's not saying we can't have babies. It's saying we may choose to have babies in the future but for now we are choosing to use a condom because it suits us to do so for now.

    Doing customs checks is a requirement of WTO Rules - which is what "No Deal" means in the context of Brexit. So unless we are not going WTO then we will have to do checks which we cannot do.

    What you think is frankly not relevant to reality. Both the UK and EU negotiators know reality which is why the UK is rapidly heading towards a deal. Back in the day you could buy a Toyota Aygo or a Citroen C1 or a Peugeot 107 built on the same line in the same factory. All three were the literal same car - same panels, same chassis, same engine, different badge. We are about to trade in our 2006 C1 and get a 2006 Aygo and claim its a completely different car.
    A better car analogy: We're about to unveil the Vauxhall Vectra as a British car. Designed in Germany. Built in Germany. Badged everywhere else as an Opel. But we're going to rip that Opel badge off and stick a Vauxhall badge on it and claim its Completely Different. That its British. Just don't pull the VX badge off the grill and see the Opel badge-shaped panel...
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Sean_F said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    The Republicans have held 49 Senate seats for certain.

    North Carolina remains to be declared, but is thought a probable Republican hold. Both Georgia Senate seats will go to a run off, but the Republicans will be favourites, given that their overall vote share in Senate contests exceeds that of the Democrats.
    And Democratic turnout will likely be disproportionally lower in an election not run on the same day as a presidential contest.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    While the wait drags interminably on, an amusing/terrifying moment from the past in another much-watched House:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6kS3y407Ho
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,685
    edited November 2020
    Can anyone tell me which of the remaining uncalled states states are currently actually counting and which have/are shut down for the night?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Mal557 said:

    MrEd said:

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    He has a chance (talking my own book here). I'm also assuming NC is called for Trump

    He has a 50/50 chance of winning AZ and NV, and possibly better given the Republicans confidence.

    GA looks as though it is on a knife edge.

    That effectively leaves PA. Alistair is confident it will be Trump but I am less so. Look at the NYT:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-pennsylvania.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020&region=TOP_BANNER&context=election_recirc

    Philly has 70% in but all the other counties with 70-80% counted are all Republican and all bar one strongholds. They total 357K votes so far vs Philly's 576K. Taking a 77% average, that means there are over 100K votes left here in mainly Republican strongholds

    Then go down to the 80-90% block in. Republican counties at 651K vs Democrat counties at 1.03m. Caveats on both sides - there are more counties with lower R leads but also the three big D counties have much lower leads than Philly.

    Then let's do the 90-95% block. All are Republican and total 735K votes. All sit within the 93-95% count range and some are not strongholds but a few are. If you take an average of 94%, that means there are 47K votes out there, which potentially could be critical.

    If you then look at all the other counties that are below the "greater than 98%", all bar one are Republican and they are all strongly Republican. Roughly they have 910K votes counted so far for the R counties vs 492K for the D (Montgomery). Trump might be able to eek out another 15-20K votes advantage from there.

    One critical point - some of these counties (and they were Republican) started ALL counting late, not just postal ballots so it is likely their splits to come are not as D-friendly as you would think.

    DYOR
    I don't agree with the 50/50 on Nevada, , once it was confirmed by the county yesterday that a good size batch of the votes still to be counted there are pre election day mail in ballots in Clark County, which will favour Dems heavily as they have all along, that to me will outweigh any drop in mail box votes that are also outanding. Washoe results are not breaking enough for Trump and any tiny amounts left from the rurals wont make any difference.

    Although he's only 7000 behind there Trump needed to be ahead after all on the day votes were counted. It will be close but at best I'd give him 15% there now. I only see the 7000 increasing quite a bit now. So I'm not totally discounting your path for Trump, just saying its not 50/50 in Nevada
    That's a fair comment and I had missed the comments re Clark. Having said that, the R sources on AZ look to have been fairly good (let's see) and they were equally confident on NV. But let's take it as 15% for now.

    As long as Trump gets past 229, I am happy :)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    Can anyone tell me which of the remaining uncalled states states are currently actually counting and which have/are shut down for the night?

    Shut down implies some of them started. I am not sure that Nevada did. Pennsylvania seem to have done a few hundred. I honestly think that the local council elections are better organised and run. It's embarrassing.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    Can anyone tell me which of the remaining uncalled states states are currently actually counting and which have/are shut down for the night?

    Looks like GA has resumed counting in the last hour - last update about 10 mins ago
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    edited November 2020
    Alistair said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    He has a chance (talking my own book here). I'm also assuming NC is called for Trump

    He has a 50/50 chance of winning AZ and NV, and possibly better given the Republicans confidence.

    GA looks as though it is on a knife edge.

    That effectively leaves PA. Alistair is confident it will be Trump but I am less so. Look at the NYT:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-pennsylvania.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020&region=TOP_BANNER&context=election_recirc

    Philly has 70% in but all the other counties with 70-80% counted are all Republican and all bar one strongholds. They total 357K votes so far vs Philly's 576K. Taking a 77% average, that means there are over 100K votes left here in mainly Republican strongholds

    Then go down to the 80-90% block in. Republican counties at 651K vs Democrat counties at 1.03m. Caveats on both sides - there are more counties with lower R leads but also the three big D counties have much lower leads than Philly.

    Then let's do the 90-95% block. All are Republican and total 735K votes. All sit within the 93-95% count range and some are not strongholds but a few are. If you take an average of 94%, that means there are 47K votes out there, which potentially could be critical.

    If you then look at all the other counties that are below the "greater than 98%", all bar one are Republican and they are all strongly Republican. Roughly they have 910K votes counted so far for the R counties vs 492K for the D (Montgomery). Trump might be able to eek out another 15-20K votes advantage from there.

    One critical point - some of these counties (and they were Republican) started ALL counting late, not just postal ballots so it is likely their splits to come are not as D-friendly as you would think.

    DYOR
    MrEd said:

    Seriously, does anyone think Trump still has a legitimate chance here?

    He has a chance (talking my own book here). I'm also assuming NC is called for Trump

    He has a 50/50 chance of winning AZ and NV, and possibly better given the Republicans confidence.

    GA looks as though it is on a knife edge.

    That effectively leaves PA. Alistair is confident it will be Trump but I am less so. Look at the NYT:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-pennsylvania.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020&region=TOP_BANNER&context=election_recirc

    Philly has 70% in but all the other counties with 70-80% counted are all Republican and all bar one strongholds. They total 357K votes so far vs Philly's 576K. Taking a 77% average, that means there are over 100K votes left here in mainly Republican strongholds

    Then go down to the 80-90% block in. Republican counties at 651K vs Democrat counties at 1.03m. Caveats on both sides - there are more counties with lower R leads but also the three big D counties have much lower leads than Philly.

    Then let's do the 90-95% block. All are Republican and total 735K votes. All sit within the 93-95% count range and some are not strongholds but a few are. If you take an average of 94%, that means there are 47K votes out there, which potentially could be critical.

    If you then look at all the other counties that are below the "greater than 98%", all bar one are Republican and they are all strongly Republican. Roughly they have 910K votes counted so far for the R counties vs 492K for the D (Montgomery). Trump might be able to eek out another 15-20K votes advantage from there.

    One critical point - some of these counties (and they were Republican) started ALL counting late, not just postal ballots so it is likely their splits to come are not as D-friendly as you would think.

    DYOR
    Just one extra bit to add: in the 80-90% range, Allegheny is 89% in so I reckon in that band, the Democrat counties have c. 155K votes to come and the Rs 125K
    You are misreading what is happening. Almost all on the day vote has been counted (Clarion still has a lot to count). The remaining percentage figures the NY Times is reporting is all mail ballot. Mail ballots split Trump no matter how red the county.

    There is no Trump advantage to any county still to count mail ballots, the only question is how big Biden's lead is in each counties VBM figure.
    That was the key point that a few people made last night, that even in red counties the mail-in ballots favour Biden. In places like Philly, they obviously favour Biden massively.

    However, I'm not counting any chickens.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Remaining Precincts to count in PA



    Top 28 counties by remaining Mail BAllot


  • No deal doesn't mean we have to do checks. You are categorically wrong on this point.

    We can agree a deal to avoid checks (though actually most of the checks discussed aren't affected by whether is a deal or not actually). Or we could choose to unilaterally delay or not do checks.

    If we choose to unilaterally not do them then that is our choice. That's not a deal. It also means we can change that unilaterally if of when we choose to do so.

    That's not saying we can't have babies. It's saying we may choose to have babies in the future but for now we are choosing to use a condom because it suits us to do so for now.

    Doing customs checks is a requirement of WTO Rules - which is what "No Deal" means in the context of Brexit. So unless we are not going WTO then we will have to do checks which we cannot do.

    What you think is frankly not relevant to reality. Both the UK and EU negotiators know reality which is why the UK is rapidly heading towards a deal. Back in the day you could buy a Toyota Aygo or a Citroen C1 or a Peugeot 107 built on the same line in the same factory. All three were the literal same car - same panels, same chassis, same engine, different badge. We are about to trade in our 2006 C1 and get a 2006 Aygo and claim its a completely different car.
    A better car analogy: We're about to unveil the Vauxhall Vectra as a British car. Designed in Germany. Built in Germany. Badged everywhere else as an Opel. But we're going to rip that Opel badge off and stick a Vauxhall badge on it and claim its Completely Different. That its British. Just don't pull the VX badge off the grill and see the Opel badge-shaped panel...
    Exactly the same? No differences whatsoever?

    So left hand drive?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425
    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    They were desperate for him not to win the nomination in 2016. If he wants it, and he keeps the support of his expanded base, they won't be able to stop him.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,685
    DavidL said:

    Can anyone tell me which of the remaining uncalled states states are currently actually counting and which have/are shut down for the night?

    Shut down implies some of them started. I am not sure that Nevada did. Pennsylvania seem to have done a few hundred. I honestly think that the local council elections are better organised and run. It's embarrassing.
    Rather unfair David. Nevada showing as 86% counted per NYT. I agree they could do much better though.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    ‘The only pollster who comes out of this with any credit is that lady in Iowa who got the state result very close IMHO. The other polls were both fairly off, one way or the other. They got some contests a bit closer than others but none can claim any credit for being close everywhere.’

    As I understand it, and correct me where I’m wrong, Ann Selzer the Queen of Polling.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Selzer

    Her November poll, very much for Trump, was out of step with the pro Biden polling, but proved more accurate.

    However it was very different than her more favourable Biden poll the month before.

    So was the October poll wildly wrong, or did something actually change during the two polls, she picked up other pollsters didn’t?

    Would we have greater trust in polling if it moves a lot month to month? Which it doesn’t tend to do? But polls aren’t simply measuring switching, at certain times people may be more likely to come off a fence with an opinion?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    DavidL said:

    Can anyone tell me which of the remaining uncalled states states are currently actually counting and which have/are shut down for the night?

    Shut down implies some of them started. I am not sure that Nevada did. Pennsylvania seem to have done a few hundred. I honestly think that the local council elections are better organised and run. It's embarrassing.
    Rather unfair David. Nevada showing as 86% counted per NYT. I agree they could do much better though.
    Yes but they have been at that with an 8K gap for more than 24 hours. What on earth have they been doing? Its not a particularly populous state.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    I have to say Trump's idiotic postal voting crusade looks even more stupid now. How many voters has he lost in swing states because they stayed home on election day or were unable to vote in person but they didn't trust the postal vote system enough to vote? Could have cost him PA, WI and NV.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934

    DavidL said:

    Can anyone tell me which of the remaining uncalled states states are currently actually counting and which have/are shut down for the night?

    Shut down implies some of them started. I am not sure that Nevada did. Pennsylvania seem to have done a few hundred. I honestly think that the local council elections are better organised and run. It's embarrassing.
    Rather unfair David. Nevada showing as 86% counted per NYT. I agree they could do much better though.
    Definitely. Scotland and Nevada have a similar GDP, but Scotland counts their votes in several hours despite having almost twice the population, not several days.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883
    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    Mal557 said:

    Stocky said:

    I`ve not been following the Senate race at all. Can someone please summarise where we are? GOP still hold the Senate yes?

    Yes and the Dems also lost some house seats, though still hold it ofc. So in some ways not a bad night for Rs after all and much to look forward to I think
    If the GOP holds the Senate, gets close in the House, and loses Donald Trump, that would indeed be an excellent night for the party ...
    Or it could foretell they will be out of the White House for a generation, as happened after 1980 when Carter was the last President to lose office after only 1 term of his party in the White House.

    It was not until Bill Clinton in 1992 that the Democrats won a presidential election again
    12 years is a generation now? I thought teen pregnancies were on the down now ...
    Nematodes is where it's at these days.
  • No deal doesn't mean we have to do checks. You are categorically wrong on this point.

    We can agree a deal to avoid checks (though actually most of the checks discussed aren't affected by whether is a deal or not actually). Or we could choose to unilaterally delay or not do checks.

    If we choose to unilaterally not do them then that is our choice. That's not a deal. It also means we can change that unilaterally if of when we choose to do so.

    That's not saying we can't have babies. It's saying we may choose to have babies in the future but for now we are choosing to use a condom because it suits us to do so for now.

    Doing customs checks is a requirement of WTO Rules - which is what "No Deal" means in the context of Brexit. So unless we are not going WTO then we will have to do checks which we cannot do.

    What you think is frankly not relevant to reality. Both the UK and EU negotiators know reality which is why the UK is rapidly heading towards a deal. Back in the day you could buy a Toyota Aygo or a Citroen C1 or a Peugeot 107 built on the same line in the same factory. All three were the literal same car - same panels, same chassis, same engine, different badge. We are about to trade in our 2006 C1 and get a 2006 Aygo and claim its a completely different car.
    You're wrong again.

    Doing customs checks is not a part of WTO Rules.

    Not abusing those checks is. But waiving those checks, if that is what we as a sovereign nation choose to do is entirely within the rules.

    The WTO is barely different to international law in that it is, as my avatar says, more like guidelines. The WTO sets guidelines in its rules but how countries operate within them is up to them. As a sovereign country how we operate will be up to us not the WTO.

    Yes there's the possibility of disputes but they take years or decades to resolve.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    gealbhan said:

    ‘The only pollster who comes out of this with any credit is that lady in Iowa who got the state result very close IMHO. The other polls were both fairly off, one way or the other. They got some contests a bit closer than others but none can claim any credit for being close everywhere.’

    As I understand it, and correct me where I’m wrong, Ann Selzer the Queen of Polling.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Selzer

    Her November poll, very much for Trump, was out of step with the pro Biden polling, but proved more accurate.

    However it was very different than her more favourable Biden poll the month before.

    So was the October poll wildly wrong, or did something actually change during the two polls, she picked up other pollsters didn’t?

    Would we have greater trust in polling if it moves a lot month to month? Which it doesn’t tend to do? But polls aren’t simply measuring switching, at certain times people may be more likely to come off a fence with an opinion?

    I think another factor that might explain her superior performance is that, when there are large changes in the electorate, as there was this time with the increase in the number of first time voters, it is easier for a local pollster focusing on one market to pick this up, particularly if that phenomenon only solidifies in the last month of a campaign.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425

    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    He will be allowed to but he'll be a loser. Americans don't like losers or retreads.

    The moment the counting stops the GOP starts looking forwards not backwards.
    Maybe, but then I remember the persistent residual level of support for Gore and H. Clinton among Democrats.

    If Trump's supporters believe he was cheated out of an election win, they won't see him as a loser. And he is, after all, currently more than 5.6 million votes up on his 2016 total.

    Normally when an incumbent loses it's because there's a decisive shift against them. This time it's like we had two waves, one for and one against, and if Trump loses it will be because the wave against was somewhat larger. But Trump still had a wave of support. That will have consequences.

    It's one reason the election reminds me of UKGE2017.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited November 2020

    While the wait drags interminably on, an amusing/terrifying moment from the past in another much-watched House:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6kS3y407Ho

    They took that well. Thanks. 🙂

    You know the one “what? A reality TV star is President?” will go on to become President?
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 435
    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Biden does win its going to be feel very odd having a President waiting for data before saying anything isn't it?

    Do we think Trump will set him up as the real President in exile in another country like an Avignon Pope/Antipope?
    If they do manage to get him out of the WH he will start campaigning for 2024 the next day. He isn't going anywhere.
    Oh that`s grimly interesting. I never thought of that. Surely GOP won`t allow Trump to run again??
    How the fuck would they stop him? He's proven himself a relentless and stunningly effective campaigner that can energise the bible thumpers, conspiraloons and other assorted white trash like nobody else.
    Seems like there's a reasonable chance he'll be a convicted felon by then. Would that be sufficient?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    Can anyone tell me which of the remaining uncalled states states are currently actually counting and which have/are shut down for the night?

    Shut down implies some of them started. I am not sure that Nevada did. Pennsylvania seem to have done a few hundred. I honestly think that the local council elections are better organised and run. It's embarrassing.
    Rather unfair David. Nevada showing as 86% counted per NYT. I agree they could do much better though.
    Definitely. Scotland and Nevada have a similar GDP, but Scotland counts their votes in several hours despite having almost twice the population, not several days.
    + I’m not sure that Nevada has quite so many remote islands.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    Imagine if Trump won the 2024 nomination from prison.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    Can anyone tell me which of the remaining uncalled states states are currently actually counting and which have/are shut down for the night?

    Shut down implies some of them started. I am not sure that Nevada did. Pennsylvania seem to have done a few hundred. I honestly think that the local council elections are better organised and run. It's embarrassing.
    Rather unfair David. Nevada showing as 86% counted per NYT. I agree they could do much better though.
    Definitely. Scotland and Nevada have a similar GDP, but Scotland counts their votes in several hours despite having almost twice the population, not several days.
    Fiddling around checking signatures on postal votes and the like takes the time, and our system allows this mostly to be done in advance of the count
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    Can anyone tell me which of the remaining uncalled states states are currently actually counting and which have/are shut down for the night?

    Shut down implies some of them started. I am not sure that Nevada did. Pennsylvania seem to have done a few hundred. I honestly think that the local council elections are better organised and run. It's embarrassing.
    Rather unfair David. Nevada showing as 86% counted per NYT. I agree they could do much better though.
    Definitely. Scotland and Nevada have a similar GDP, but Scotland counts their votes in several hours despite having almost twice the population, not several days.
    Fiddling around checking signatures on postal votes and the like takes the time, and our system allows this mostly to be done in advance of the count
    That their system is crap is kinda the point ;)
This discussion has been closed.