I don't disagree with that. I do think though that judgement of Johnson is distorted by a level of sour grapes which ignores the extraordinarily difficult circumstances of this crisis. He is far from perfect but I am unconvinced that any other PM right now would be being lauded on all sides either.
No
BoZo has made a number of explicit moves that made the crisis worse that other leaders would not have made (probably)
Expelling all the talent. Hiring Dom. Not firing Dom.
BoZo is uniquely awful, and Tories know it
My recent highlight was him ordering, if not threatening us to go back to the office, just before he said we must stay at home.
It's a meeting with people who don't live with you, for purely social reasons.
There are some exceptions, so for example my brother and his wife form a 'bubble' with her mother who lives alone, which means that they can see each other but no-one else.
That’s fine in a home, but in a pub? I can be sat at the same table as someone, someone I may not even know, but have no social contact with them. A gathering?
I sit at an adjacent table to somebody (who I may or may not know) and engage the in conversation. A gathering?
I know this seems like nitpicking but when we we discussing the “Tier 2” type regulations the other day, people covered by them said that they were universally being turned a blind eye to. Don’t ask don’t tell. It is obvious that doing this is the only way for pubs and restaurants to be remotely viable in Tier 2 restricted areas.
However if you are going to go down the “blind eye” route, it is quite useful to actually know whether you are in danger of actually being prosecuted.
What if pubs put in loads of small tables for example?
In the HIGH regulations - linked above - the word "gathering" appears one hundred and forty eight times, so plenty for you to get your teeth into....
I know it does. So it's quite important what it means!
When you're in a private home - easy. When you're at an organised event where all participants are invited - easy.
But when you visit a pub? I haven't a clue. It seems to me that any and all people in a pub at any one time are at a "gathering". Whether they know them or not. But clearly that is not the case, or pubs would all be shut.
Can someone tell me what the exit strategy is from all this if there isn't an effective vaccine available sometime in the near future? I've yet to hear a good answer from anyone in power on this point.
You haven't heard an answer because there isn't one. It is a fallacy to think that the existence of a problem entails the existence of a solution.
In a wider sense there is also what Matthew Parris years ago called the 'pistachio nut at the end of the party' issue. A sophisticated society can solve and manage a huge range of problems, from smallpox to famine to illiteracy and lots of other things. This leaves the uncrackable nuts, insoluble problems, looming at the bottom of the bowl at the end of the party. This could add to the list. So could Brexit. The list of problems that don't have solutions is interesting. Try:
The Riemann hypothesis North Korea Drug dealing Is the EU a state Ireland Taxing the super rich Money laundering
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Mr. Jonathan, there's no choice to be made there. It's entirely possible to believe the PM's incompetent and the media are behaving irresponsibly.
I got so tired of the opinions and reporting (no, Peston, I don't need to hear you take seven minutes to ramble a probably incorrect prediction when you should be reporting facts) that I stopped regularly watching news. Haven't done so for months. Haven't missed it.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Mr. B2, it's interesting to consider if it's a lack of intelligence, a lack of courage, or both. I'd suggest both. The PM is scared of not being liked and, for all his dipping into Latin, is not intellectually confident enough to stand up for what he believes to be the right course of action.
Inaction and vacillation are also choices, and when that lurches into decisions without consultation or forewarning it's easy to see why people are aggravated by that.
It is an unfortunate coincidence that at the time of the first pandemic in a century we're governed by a cretin.
Good Morning everyone.
Very good post, Mr D. I don't think Johnson's a cretin, though. I think he's narcissistic; really, really wants to be 'loved', and makes decisions on that basis. He also comes across as extremely selfish.
I think Mr D has nailed it myself. Johnson is always given the benefit of the doubt on his intelligence because he has a degree in Classics from Oxford, which as most people don't, makes him sound very clever . The reality is that he is just about of an age where it was still possible to get into Oxbridge if you went to the right school and had the right connections, plus the potential pool of candidates and therefore competition for Classics is very small. Once there it would be a question of doing just about enough work to get through. I wouldn't go as far as to suggest it was a "Porterhouse Blue" degree, but much of the evidence since his entry into political life suggest he is not the brightest graduate of his college!
Mr. Jonathan, there's no choice to be made there. It's entirely possible to believe the PM's incompetent and the media are behaving irresponsibly.
I got so tired of the opinions and reporting (no, Peston, I don't need to hear you take seven minutes to ramble a probably incorrect prediction when you should be reporting facts) that I stopped regularly watching news. Haven't done so for months. Haven't missed it.
Forgive me if I have zero sympathy for a demonstrably incompetent government complaining it has a bad press.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
I don't disagree with that. I do think though that judgement of Johnson is distorted by a level of sour grapes which ignores the extraordinarily difficult circumstances of this crisis. He is far from perfect but I am unconvinced that any other PM right now would be being lauded on all sides either.
No
BoZo has made a number of explicit moves that made the crisis worse that other leaders would not have made (probably)
Expelling all the talent. Hiring Dom. Not firing Dom.
BoZo is uniquely awful, and Tories know it
My recent highlight was him ordering, if not threatening us to go back to the office, just before he said we must stay at home.
Yes - that 'leak' to the Sunday Times that people might face the sack if they don't go back to the office apparently originated from No. 10.
It's a meeting with people who don't live with you, for purely social reasons.
There are some exceptions, so for example my brother and his wife form a 'bubble' with her mother who lives alone, which means that they can see each other but no-one else.
That’s fine in a home, but in a pub? I can be sat at the same table as someone, someone I may not even know, but have no social contact with them. A gathering?
I sit at an adjacent table to somebody (who I may or may not know) and engage the in conversation. A gathering?
I know this seems like nitpicking but when we we discussing the “Tier 2” type regulations the other day, people covered by them said that they were universally being turned a blind eye to. Don’t ask don’t tell. It is obvious that doing this is the only way for pubs and restaurants to be remotely viable in Tier 2 restricted areas.
However if you are going to go down the “blind eye” route, it is quite useful to actually know whether you are in danger of actually being prosecuted.
What if pubs put in loads of small tables for example?
Pubs are IMO easy to understand.
Tables should be socially distanced (1.5m apart indoors), and you should only be on a table with your own 'gathering' - this is either your group of six, or your own household according to your area's risk zone.
Not quite. A gathering is more than a group of six. No larger gathering is now lawful unless a specific law allows it! (Like living in North Korea). Where it is lawful (eg going to church) groups of six should not 'mingle'. No-one knows what that means. Social distancing as such is not as yet enforced in law.
Journalists seem to be back to trying to push ministers into a full, national lockdown.
Grossly overstepping their role imho.
UK journalists have been grossly overstepping their role since about February.
They don't understand the technical subject matter, all live in Islington, all hate the government for Brexit and think that politics as usual is the way through this - when it clearly isn't. War and Pandemic are not normal situations and require a change of attitude.
Government IMO need to sidestep the mainstream media as much as possible - lots of public information camplaigns on TV, radio and social media, with ministers answering any and all questions by telling people to read the official advice at emergency.gov.uk
You’re dangerously close to a Trumpian point of view there. You’ll be banging on about the MSM or fake news next.
When you cut a long story short, there is a growing trend for governments that can’t handle scrutiny, criticism and simple questions of clarification. They have some bizarre notion that a grateful nation needs to do as it’s told and praise their kindness and wisdom. All despite the obvious that they are out of their depth.
That's not my point at all. I'm not saying that the government should be beyond criticism, I'm saying that the media reporting is damn close to wanting the government to fail if it generates clicks and gets likes on Twitter.
When there's a national crisis going on, everyone needs to play their role in informing the public what's happening - and the hyperbolic language and oppositionism needs to be turned down a lot.
The TV news headlines this morning should have been a dry explanation of what the new restrictions mean in practice, and pointing people at official sources of information - rather than have one person saying it's not enough and another saying it's far too much, shouting over each other for 5 minutes generating way more heat than light.
Mr. B2, it's interesting to consider if it's a lack of intelligence, a lack of courage, or both. I'd suggest both. The PM is scared of not being liked and, for all his dipping into Latin, is not intellectually confident enough to stand up for what he believes to be the right course of action.
Inaction and vacillation are also choices, and when that lurches into decisions without consultation or forewarning it's easy to see why people are aggravated by that.
It is an unfortunate coincidence that at the time of the first pandemic in a century we're governed by a cretin.
Good Morning everyone.
Very good post, Mr D. I don't think Johnson's a cretin, though. I think he's narcissistic; really, really wants to be 'loved', and makes decisions on that basis. He also comes across as extremely selfish.
I think Mr D has nailed it myself. Johnson is always given the benefit of the doubt on his intelligence because he has a degree in Classics from Oxford, which as most people don't, makes him sound very clever . The reality is that he is just about of an age where it was still possible to get into Oxbridge if you went to the right school and had the right connections, plus the potential pool of candidates and therefore competition for Classics is very small. Once there it would be a question of doing just about enough work to get through. I wouldn't go as far as to suggest it was a "Porterhouse Blue" degree, but much of the evidence since his entry into political life suggest he is not the brightest graduate of his college!
He's clever enough, but it's a form of cleverness that is of little use and considerable hindrance in terms of being able to prove an effective leader or being able to govern effectively (even at a mediocre level)
As very many Tories, including a few on PB, spent a long time telling us, before making him the leader.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
On the contrary there are many Brexit obsessives who are blind to or forgive Johnson’s failings, because they prize Brexit above everything else and view the whole world through that lens.
Brexit does nothing to help us right now. Who gives a shit about Brexit?
Journalists seem to be back to trying to push ministers into a full, national lockdown.
Grossly overstepping their role imho.
UK journalists have been grossly overstepping their role since about February.
They don't understand the technical subject matter, all live in Islington, all hate the government for Brexit and think that politics as usual is the way through this - when it clearly isn't. War and Pandemic are not normal situations and require a change of attitude.
Government IMO need to sidestep the mainstream media as much as possible - lots of public information camplaigns on TV, radio and social media, with ministers answering any and all questions by telling people to read the official advice at emergency.gov.uk
You’re dangerously close to a Trumpian point of view there. You’ll be banging on about the MSM or fake news next.
When you cut a long story short, there is a growing trend for governments that can’t handle scrutiny, criticism and simple questions of clarification. They have some bizarre notion that a grateful nation needs to do as it’s told and praise their kindness and wisdom. All despite the obvious that they are out of their depth.
That's not my point at all. I'm not saying that the government should be beyond criticism, I'm saying that the media reporting is damn close to wanting the government to fail if it generates clicks and gets likes on Twitter.
When there's a national crisis going on, everyone needs to play their role in informing the public what's happening - and the hyperbolic language and oppositionism needs to be turned down a lot.
The TV news headlines this morning should have been a dry explanation of what the new restrictions mean in practice, and pointing people at official sources of information - rather than have one person saying it's not enough and another saying it's far too much, shouting over each other for 5 minutes generating way more heat than light.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
Put simply, anyone who knows anything about pubs knows that they (in general) can't remain viable under Tier 2 restrictions unless they effectively ignore them. So either they continue to operate as if they are in Tier 1. Or they shut down (Tier 3 without the cash).
I can't see the current Tier system, with current levels of financial support - only available to Tier 3 - lasting very long because of this. Yet another example of the Govt putting in a "new framework" intended for a period of months, which probably will break down in weeks.
Somebody, somewhere needs to get a grip and give the scientists a new brief. One that actively takes into account what is economically and politically feasible to deliver. If that happens, who knows maybe we will be able to try out a wider range of policy solutions (be it utilising "rapid testing", more local control, more targeting of individual businesses rather than business sectors or whatever).
In fact, how about piloting a few different things in different areas to actually generate some data on what might work and what doesn't?
Yesterday the Prime Minister stood up and announced new measures which will cripple (again) large areas of the economy. And then the Chief Medical Officer stood up and said he didn't think they would 'work' (although it's unclear what "work" means as we don't appear to have a stated end goal).
Frankly, to the extent that we have a choice between protecting the economy and protecting health (yes i know it's not that simple) then if you're going to go for the latter, at least do something that will be effective!!!
Yes, pubs and bars have a choice between trying to find dubious ways around the regulations (small tables seating people singly with pubs ignoring customers who choose to talk to others at nearby separate tables have been mentioned) , or closing without the compensation available in Liverpool alone. It's a bit like the rules requiring people to wear masks in shops - the only sanctions are on the individuals and if shops serve people not wearing masks they cannot be fined etc.
So the absence of proper financial compensation to unviable pubs in "High Risk" areas covering most urban areas in the North and Midlands is actively endangering health outcomes, by putting landlords in an impossible position.
Journalists seem to be back to trying to push ministers into a full, national lockdown.
Grossly overstepping their role imho.
UK journalists have been grossly overstepping their role since about February.
They don't understand the technical subject matter, all live in Islington, all hate the government for Brexit and think that politics as usual is the way through this - when it clearly isn't. War and Pandemic are not normal situations and require a change of attitude.
Government IMO need to sidestep the mainstream media as much as possible - lots of public information camplaigns on TV, radio and social media, with ministers answering any and all questions by telling people to read the official advice at emergency.gov.uk
You’re dangerously close to a Trumpian point of view there. You’ll be banging on about the MSM or fake news next.
When you cut a long story short, there is a growing trend for governments that can’t handle scrutiny, criticism and simple questions of clarification. They have some bizarre notion that a grateful nation needs to do as it’s told and praise their kindness and wisdom. All despite the obvious that they are out of their depth.
That's not my point at all. I'm not saying that the government should be beyond criticism, I'm saying that the media reporting is damn close to wanting the government to fail if it generates clicks and gets likes on Twitter.
When there's a national crisis going on, everyone needs to play their role in informing the public what's happening - and the hyperbolic language and oppositionism needs to be turned down a lot.
The TV news headlines this morning should have been a dry explanation of what the new restrictions mean in practice, and pointing people at official sources of information - rather than have one person saying it's not enough and another saying it's far too much, shouting over each other for 5 minutes generating way more heat than light.
We have to accept that it is the media's role to play devil's advocate; but not on this.
It seems to me that all the talk of "circuit breakers" is bunkum - simply because everyone seems to believe that you have to wait for evidence that they have worked before you relax the regulations. They are probably a not disastrous idea in theory, that fail fundamentally with any understanding of political reality. It's scientists not living in the real world.
You do a circuit breaker if you guarantee 100% that the restrictions imposed will be lifted after two weeks (or whatever the proposed period is). Regardless of what happens to the numbers over that period. If you could do that you might get public and business buy in. A national effort, everyone stay in their homes for two weeks. Break the circuit.
But nobody would be prepared to give that guarantee (look at Sturgeon and her "shut the pubs for 16 days (but it might be longer" policy). And if people have no confidence that the restrictions will be lifted (because numbers will continue to grow for the period of the restrictions and they will be extended) then they will ignore them. Carry on as normal. The pubs/restaurants/cafes/shops will be shut - and everyone will spend the two weeks visiting each others houses outside of the realms of enforcement.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
You have been going on about it being outrageous that Covid infected Scousers can ride roughshod through your manor to their holiday caravans. Now Drakeford is agreeing with you, you change your mind and the old Soviet is adopting a discredited East German model. What do you want?
As for the three tier system being simple, it is not a three tier system: a) it doesn't have a low risk tier, and b) the highest risk tier is divided into multiple tiers.
I'm not saying that the government should be beyond criticism, I'm saying that the media reporting is damn close to wanting the government to fail if it generates clicks and gets likes on Twitter.
When there's a national crisis going on, everyone needs to play their role in informing the public what's happening - and the hyperbolic language and oppositionism needs to be turned down a lot.
But dry and non-sensational reporting of the Government response to the crisis shows that it has failed, multiple times, on several fronts.
When the clowns put on a 3 ring circus, you have to report the custard pies...
Looking at the High (T2) regulations, an interesting feature is that the gathering restrictions apply to people living inside the relevant areas even if they are (i.e. the gathering is) outside of the area. Inside the area, the restrictions apply to everyone including visitors.
Mr. B2, aye. It was an act of intense stupidity by the PCP to gift the keys to Number 10 to a known incompetent.
Yes, he won a large majority. Against a man reviled. That does not mean he's fit to govern.
Even from a purely partisan Conservative perspective, throwing out the clown will be advantageous for the party, not to mention the benefits for the nation.
Alas, the modern Conservative Party seems to no longer base its attitude to leadership on 4th century BC Macedon.
I think the wildcard scenario for Trump is that he loses with good grace, and everyone is so shocked that they let him retire with dignity.
He won't go with good grace, but for all the talk of rigged election, deep state, not accepting the result, I think it is all talk like so many of his pronouncements.
I think he will moan about the fake news media, how horrible Biden will be and how great America would be after another 4 more years of him, but anything more than that I don't think so.
He may pull the classic 'i have better things to do than fight this nonsense' approach, even though if he was right in his claims he'd fight.
Can someone tell me what the exit strategy is from all this if there isn't an effective vaccine available sometime in the near future? I've yet to hear a good answer from anyone in power on this point.
There’s no exit, as the virus isn’t just going to disappear without herd immunity via vaccine. ‘Letting it rip’ might take quite some time.
There is a control strategy available, and that is cheap mass testing. You could buy enough antigen tests for testing half the population every fortnight for about £200m a month if production capacity were ramped up.
In the short term, you’d need to finance a very large amount of isolation of infected individuals, as @MaxPB has previously suggested, but that would not be an ongoing expense.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
The TV news headlines this morning should have been a dry explanation of what the new restrictions mean in practice, and pointing people at official sources of information - rather than have one person saying it's not enough and another saying it's far too much,
They reported that one of the people saying it's not enough is the chief scientist who came up with the plan.
Journalists seem to be back to trying to push ministers into a full, national lockdown.
Grossly overstepping their role imho.
Yet they are representing public opinion to the politicians. Not that I agree with it myself.
Maybe, though why they think representation is their job i don't know. Question question question seems easy enough, but many groups seem to think they need to represent the public.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
I do not want to die of Covid. I do not see why I should accept Brexit when I fundamentally disagree with it.
But I detest Boris and his lickspittle clique because they are talentless a**holes who could not run a bath.
BTW - the Brexit obsessives are in Boris's Cabinet aka the former Tory Party. Perhaps MrG should ponder that before he puckers up to them...
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
It's easier for him than accepting that everything people are saying about Boris now - which is the same as everything Big_G was saying about Boris eighteen months ago - might actually be true?
CNN interviewing people at Trumps rally . Clearly we’re looking at a cult that would happily die for the dear leader . The ignorance is staggering . Even if Biden wins the reality is there’s a section of America who need to be sterilized so their moronic genes can’t further pollute the USA gene pool.
Don't you think that sort of attitude might be what has made people like Trump so popular in the first place?
Ah yes but Trump’s vote share was lower than Romney’s so it doesn’t really matter.
In seriousness, this failure of people to recognise that many of his voters turned to Trump out of desperation not from adulation is staggering.
It’s the same sort of mindset that calls his voters racist without realising that many of them voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012. What, did they think Obama was a White man?
The highest estimate for Obama to Trump switchers is 6%
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
My main point was the stresses are between those who want complete lockdown and others who want the opposite and there are those who want to undermine HMG because they do not accept brexit
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
Because Brexit is the only thing BoZo has ever done that BigG wants. It's the Brexiteers Supreme Court nominees. The World can go to hell in a handbasket as long as that is secured...
It's a meeting with people who don't live with you, for purely social reasons.
There are some exceptions, so for example my brother and his wife form a 'bubble' with her mother who lives alone, which means that they can see each other but no-one else.
That’s fine in a home, but in a pub? I can be sat at the same table as someone, someone I may not even know, but have no social contact with them. A gathering?
I sit at an adjacent table to somebody (who I may or may not know) and engage the in conversation. A gathering?
I know this seems like nitpicking but when we we discussing the “Tier 2” type regulations the other day, people covered by them said that they were universally being turned a blind eye to. Don’t ask don’t tell. It is obvious that doing this is the only way for pubs and restaurants to be remotely viable in Tier 2 restricted areas.
However if you are going to go down the “blind eye” route, it is quite useful to actually know whether you are in danger of actually being prosecuted.
What if pubs put in loads of small tables for example?
Pubs are IMO easy to understand.
Tables should be socially distanced (1.5m apart indoors), and you should only be on a table with your own 'gathering' - this is either your group of six, or your own household according to your area's risk zone.
Not quite. A gathering is more than a group of six. No larger gathering is now lawful unless a specific law allows it! (Like living in North Korea). Where it is lawful (eg going to church) groups of six should not 'mingle'. No-one knows what that means. Social distancing as such is not as yet enforced in law.
Under Tier 2 regulations a gathering is a group of 2 or more (subject to all the exceptions). So it potentially covers casual conversations. And as stated, social distancing is not enforced in law. So the example given of pubs is just recommended guidance. It doesn't actually get to the crux of whether you are in a legal gathering or not.
Journalists seem to be back to trying to push ministers into a full, national lockdown.
Grossly overstepping their role imho.
UK journalists have been grossly overstepping their role since about February.
They don't understand the technical subject matter, all live in Islington, all hate the government for Brexit and think that politics as usual is the way through this - when it clearly isn't. War and Pandemic are not normal situations and require a change of attitude.
Government IMO need to sidestep the mainstream media as much as possible - lots of public information camplaigns on TV, radio and social media, with ministers answering any and all questions by telling people to read the official advice at emergency.gov.uk
You’re dangerously close to a Trumpian point of view there. You’ll be banging on about the MSM or fake news next.
When you cut a long story short, there is a growing trend for governments that can’t handle scrutiny, criticism and simple questions of clarification. They have some bizarre notion that a grateful nation needs to do as it’s told and praise their kindness and wisdom. All despite the obvious that they are out of their depth.
That's not my point at all. I'm not saying that the government should be beyond criticism, I'm saying that the media reporting is damn close to wanting the government to fail if it generates clicks and gets likes on Twitter.
When there's a national crisis going on, everyone needs to play their role in informing the public what's happening - and the hyperbolic language and oppositionism needs to be turned down a lot.
The TV news headlines this morning should have been a dry explanation of what the new restrictions mean in practice, and pointing people at official sources of information - rather than have one person saying it's not enough and another saying it's far too much, shouting over each other for 5 minutes generating way more heat than light.
We have to accept that it is the media's role to play devil's advocate; but not on this.
Some thing are too serious for politics-as-usual, and this is one of them.
Now, ministers and civil servants are just as guilty as the MSM - they need to stop briefing friendly hacks and having their disagreements in public too. They should be arguing in private and agreeing in public, and policies need to be communicated officially first (as we saw yesterday) without days of prior speculation.
Mr. Jonathan, there's no choice to be made there. It's entirely possible to believe the PM's incompetent and the media are behaving irresponsibly.
I got so tired of the opinions and reporting (no, Peston, I don't need to hear you take seven minutes to ramble a probably incorrect prediction when you should be reporting facts) that I stopped regularly watching news. Haven't done so for months. Haven't missed it.
Forgive me if I have zero sympathy for a demonstrably incompetent government complaining it has a bad press.
Sympathy is not necessary even if is true, but acknowledgement if its true is still reasonable. Bad press doesn't give a pass for bad actions.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
Good point. When things go bad they call Brexit and look for the ref.
Andy Street, the Conservative mayor for the West Midlands, reacted with fury to blanket tier 2 restrictions in his region – banning households from mixing indoors but subjecting outdoor meetings to the rule of six – and suggested he was blindsided by the decision.
“This is not something regional leaders supported, nor what I believed would be happening following extensive conversations over recent days. The region was united, cross-party, in supporting the existing restrictions,” he said. “This is something the latest local epidemiology does not support, and I am disappointed that the government is pressing ahead with this despite the united view of local leaders.”
What does he expect? A say? He needs to speak to HYUFD to be put back in his place.
It’s that Bozo simply can’t do the politics. He leaves everyone thinking that he has agreed with them, then when he acts it isn’t what anyone was expecting.
It must really hurt that someone who 'can't do politics' won the biggest majority since Blair. I'm not pretending remotely he is the ideals l
Andy Street, the Conservative mayor for the West Midlands, reacted with fury to blanket tier 2 restrictions in his region – banning households from mixing indoors but subjecting outdoor meetings to the rule of six – and suggested he was blindsided by the decision.
“This is not something regional leaders supported, nor what I believed would be happening following extensive conversations over recent days. The region was united, cross-party, in supporting the existing restrictions,” he said. “This is something the latest local epidemiology does not support, and I am disappointed that the government is pressing ahead with this despite the united view of local leaders.”
What does he expect? A say? He needs to speak to HYUFD to be put back in his place.
It’s that Bozo simply can’t do the politics. He leaves everyone thinking that he has agreed with them, then when he acts it isn’t what anyone was expecting.
It must really hurt that someone who 'can't do politics' won the biggest majority since Blair. I'm not pretending remotely he is the ideal leader for now but the level of criticism from the 'chatterers' is a contant source of amusement.
Johnson is a first class campaigner. So from that point of view he is very good at this element of politics.
Johnson is poor at making consistent political decisions, therefore he not very good at this element of politics.
I suspect therefore, it all hinges on one's definition of politics. If campaigning is one's priority you are right, Johnson is a political master.
I don't disagree with that. I do think though that judgement of Johnson is distorted by a level of sour grapes which ignores the extraordinarily difficult circumstances of this crisis. He is far from perfect but I am unconvinced that any other PM right now would be being lauded on all sides either.
I have an innate dislike of Johnson so I am not impartial. However, I am trying to be just that. There is no point me suggesting Blair would have handled othe pandemic better as I clearly have a dog in that race.
I didn't like Mrs May either, but I can't help feeling that she would have followed the science, and communicated the message better. She would have been more determined and forthright with what she believed to be right. She may well make the wrong decision but she wouldn't have been too scared to try.
Oh but that is not what I said - "I am unconvinced any other PM would be being lauded..". I made no comment about his actions - more about the response of the press and others. I can also, as it happens, recall some of the criticisms of May when she was PM.
Regarding specific actions taken he has made errors of course. However, the broad range of actions taken in the UK are remarkably similar to much of the rest of Europe and indeed the UK, with pretty much the same rates of success. Just one example is the 'rule of 6' which has appeared here in Spain a couple of weeks after the UK. There are many others. He is the leader so gets the bulk of the criticism. However, a large part of that criticism has its source in those who wish harm on the government for ideological reasons. Most of the ' he should have done this commentary' is either wrong or hindisght.
I'm not saying that the government should be beyond criticism, I'm saying that the media reporting is damn close to wanting the government to fail if it generates clicks and gets likes on Twitter.
When there's a national crisis going on, everyone needs to play their role in informing the public what's happening - and the hyperbolic language and oppositionism needs to be turned down a lot.
But dry and non-sensational reporting of the Government response to the crisis shows that it has failed, multiple times, on several fronts.
When the clowns put on a 3 ring circus, you have to report the custard pies...
A good example of the sort of unhelpful language from which we need to get away.
I suspect the most important development yesterday was the publication of the SAGE minutes from September 20. SAGE confirms the view that test, trace and isolate is simply not working, and can only be seen as a major failure by government. It was noted by somebody on here, but I don't think enough attention has been paid to it. This is what the minutes said:
An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future.
That is incredibly gloomy. Poor rates of adherence with self-isolation? Testing delays? Low levels of engagement? Further decline in the future?
It strikes me that this is, as some have been saying, the most significant weakness in delivery of government policy, and should be a priority immediately. And by the way, this is what boring old Starmer has been droning on about for weeks....
There is absolutely no chance of getting the virus under control unless test, trace and isolate are much more effective than currently.
CNN interviewing people at Trumps rally . Clearly we’re looking at a cult that would happily die for the dear leader . The ignorance is staggering . Even if Biden wins the reality is there’s a section of America who need to be sterilized so their moronic genes can’t further pollute the USA gene pool.
Don't you think that sort of attitude might be what has made people like Trump so popular in the first place?
Ah yes but Trump’s vote share was lower than Romney’s so it doesn’t really matter.
In seriousness, this failure of people to recognise that many of his voters turned to Trump out of desperation not from adulation is staggering.
It’s the same sort of mindset that calls his voters racist without realising that many of them voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012. What, did they think Obama was a White man?
The highest estimate for Obama to Trump switchers is 6%
That still leaves 94%
There was lots of Obama to "fuck that Hillary, I'd rather stay home and let Trump win".
A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in order— (a) to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or (b) to undertake any other activity with each other.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
BigG can speak for himself, but I suppose he has noticed the overlap between commentators critical of both.
Mr. B2, it's interesting to consider if it's a lack of intelligence, a lack of courage, or both. I'd suggest both. The PM is scared of not being liked and, for all his dipping into Latin, is not intellectually confident enough to stand up for what he believes to be the right course of action.
Inaction and vacillation are also choices, and when that lurches into decisions without consultation or forewarning it's easy to see why people are aggravated by that.
It is an unfortunate coincidence that at the time of the first pandemic in a century we're governed by a cretin.
Good Morning everyone.
Very good post, Mr D. I don't think Johnson's a cretin, though. I think he's narcissistic; really, really wants to be 'loved', and makes decisions on that basis. He also comes across as extremely selfish.
I think Mr D has nailed it myself. Johnson is always given the benefit of the doubt on his intelligence because he has a degree in Classics from Oxford, which as most people don't, makes him sound very clever . The reality is that he is just about of an age where it was still possible to get into Oxbridge if you went to the right school and had the right connections, plus the potential pool of candidates and therefore competition for Classics is very small. Once there it would be a question of doing just about enough work to get through. I wouldn't go as far as to suggest it was a "Porterhouse Blue" degree, but much of the evidence since his entry into political life suggest he is not the brightest graduate of his college!
Ahh... Porterhouse Blue! Is Tom Sharpe still permitted in these politically correct days? I wonder what BLM would make of his South African books - Riotous Assembly and Indecent Exposure?
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
My main point was the stresses are between those who want complete lockdown and others who want the opposite and there are those who want to undermine HMG because they do not accept brexit
A recent poll showed a majority thought brexit would be good in the medium term
This is the first poll to indicate a positive for brexit
No it didn't, it was a plurality. And i think it might be a good thing if it leads to the utter discreditation of the types of politicians who brought it about.
I suspect the most important development yesterday was the publication of the SAGE minutes from September 20. SAGE confirms the view that test, trace and isolate is simply not working, and can only be seen as a major failure by government. It was noted by somebody on here, but I don't think enough attention has been paid to it. This is what the minutes said:
An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future.
That is incredibly gloomy. Poor rates of adherence with self-isolation? Testing delays? Low levels of engagement? Further decline in the future?
It strikes me that this is, as some have been saying, the most significant weakness in delivery of government policy, and should be a priority immediately. And by the way, this is what boring old Starmer has been droning on about for weeks....
There is absolutely no chance of getting the virus under control unless test, trace and isolate are much more effective than currently.
Nothing is going to make track and trace work well in this country.
That's the reality and has to be dealt with.
I suspect that's also applies to varying degrees in all countries.
Once again the state has proved it doesn't have any creative thinking, just more of the same that didn't work.
Are we expecting much by way of effort to enforce, except in the most egregious breaches? It is dressed up as law but is effectively guidance.
Then why bother having it? It's like the fines for breaching quarantine, they exist only in theory so no one bothers with them. Even self isolation is in that boat.
A recent poll showed a majority thought brexit would be good in the medium term
This is the first poll to indicate a positive for brexit
No it didn't, it was a plurality. And i think it might be a good thing if it leads to the utter discreditation of the types of politicians who brought it about.
I think Blair, Brown and Cameron are already pretty discredited.
Andy Street, the Conservative mayor for the West Midlands, reacted with fury to blanket tier 2 restrictions in his region – banning households from mixing indoors but subjecting outdoor meetings to the rule of six – and suggested he was blindsided by the decision.
“This is not something regional leaders supported, nor what I believed would be happening following extensive conversations over recent days. The region was united, cross-party, in supporting the existing restrictions,” he said. “This is something the latest local epidemiology does not support, and I am disappointed that the government is pressing ahead with this despite the united view of local leaders.”
What does he expect? A say? He needs to speak to HYUFD to be put back in his place.
It’s that Bozo simply can’t do the politics. He leaves everyone thinking that he has agreed with them, then when he acts it isn’t what anyone was expecting.
It must really hurt that someone who 'can't do politics' won the biggest majority since Blair. I'm not pretending remotely he is the ideals l
Andy Street, the Conservative mayor for the West Midlands, reacted with fury to blanket tier 2 restrictions in his region – banning households from mixing indoors but subjecting outdoor meetings to the rule of six – and suggested he was blindsided by the decision.
“This is not something regional leaders supported, nor what I believed would be happening following extensive conversations over recent days. The region was united, cross-party, in supporting the existing restrictions,” he said. “This is something the latest local epidemiology does not support, and I am disappointed that the government is pressing ahead with this despite the united view of local leaders.”
What does he expect? A say? He needs to speak to HYUFD to be put back in his place.
It’s that Bozo simply can’t do the politics. He leaves everyone thinking that he has agreed with them, then when he acts it isn’t what anyone was expecting.
It must really hurt that someone who 'can't do politics' won the biggest majority since Blair. I'm not pretending remotely he is the ideal leader for now but the level of criticism from the 'chatterers' is a contant source of amusement.
Johnson is a first class campaigner. So from that point of view he is very good at this element of politics.
Johnson is poor at making consistent political decisions, therefore he not very good at this element of politics.
I suspect therefore, it all hinges on one's definition of politics. If campaigning is one's priority you are right, Johnson is a political master.
I don't disagree with that. I do think though that judgement of Johnson is distorted by a level of sour grapes which ignores the extraordinarily difficult circumstances of this crisis. He is far from perfect but I am unconvinced that any other PM right now would be being lauded on all sides either.
I have an innate dislike of Johnson so I am not impartial. However, I am trying to be just that. There is no point me suggesting Blair would have handled othe pandemic better as I clearly have a dog in that race.
I didn't like Mrs May either, but I can't help feeling that she would have followed the science, and communicated the message better. She would have been more determined and forthright with what she believed to be right. She may well make the wrong decision but she wouldn't have been too scared to try.
Oh but that is not what I said - "I am unconvinced any other PM would be being lauded..". I made no comment about his actions - more about the response of the press and others. I can also, as it happens, recall some of the criticisms of May when she was PM.
Regarding specific actions taken he has made errors of course. However, the broad range of actions taken in the UK are remarkably similar to much of the rest of Europe and indeed the UK, with pretty much the same rates of success. Just one example is the 'rule of 6' which has appeared here in Spain a couple of weeks after the UK. There are many others. He is the leader so gets the bulk of the criticism. However, a large part of that criticism has its source in those who wish harm on the government for ideological reasons. Most of the ' he should have done this commentary' is either wrong or hindisght.
Because the virus is hitting the entire world regardless of the nature of governance within each jurisdiction.
The ability of any leader to steer beyond the storm is more limited than we would wish.
None of which changes the fact that most times our own leader touches the tiller we end up closer to the rocks. And our boat is taking on more water than almost any.
Once again the state has proved it doesn't have any creative thinking, just more of the same that didn't work.
Are we expecting much by way of effort to enforce, except in the most egregious breaches? It is dressed up as law but is effectively guidance.
Then why bother having it? It's like the fines for breaching quarantine, they exist only in theory so no one bothers with them. Even self isolation is in that boat.
Because they provide a framework for social interaction which will have some effect through social pressure alone.
The weakness of course is that this pressure is strongest among those groups and demographics that would have taken the most precautions anyway, and vice versa.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
BigG can speak for himself, but I suppose he has noticed the overlap between commentators critical of both.
A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in order— (a) to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or (b) to undertake any other activity with each other.
Thanks. (Arguably that even covers going to the toilet )
I can't see that being enforceable. The definition relies far too much on intent and not at all on the actions/activities being engaged in.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
BigG can speak for himself, but I suppose he has noticed the overlap between commentators critical of both.
Yeah, because the likes of Sir Graham Brady, Steve Baker, Nigel Farage, Toby Young, Fraser Nelson, and Alison Pearson are such arch Remainers.
Labour say the new lockdown measures aren’t strict enough, at least we know now.
I watched this fellow on GMB this morning. The Tory boycott of the show has led to sycophancy beyond belief from Labour guests towards Piers and Susanna - understandable enough I guess. A lot of people watch it, could be a factor at the next Election
A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in order— (a) to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or (b) to undertake any other activity with each other.
Thanks. (Arguably that even covers going to the toilet )
I can't see that being enforceable. The definition relies far too much on intent and not at all on the actions/activities being engaged in.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
BigG can speak for himself, but I suppose he has noticed the overlap between commentators critical of both.
I suspect the most important development yesterday was the publication of the SAGE minutes from September 20. SAGE confirms the view that test, trace and isolate is simply not working, and can only be seen as a major failure by government. It was noted by somebody on here, but I don't think enough attention has been paid to it. This is what the minutes said:
An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future.
That is incredibly gloomy. Poor rates of adherence with self-isolation? Testing delays? Low levels of engagement? Further decline in the future?
It strikes me that this is, as some have been saying, the most significant weakness in delivery of government policy, and should be a priority immediately. And by the way, this is what boring old Starmer has been droning on about for weeks....
There is absolutely no chance of getting the virus under control unless test, trace and isolate are much more effective than currently.
The difficulty is that if you walk into a supermarket and are asked to register your QR code you are subject to 14 days quarantine if someone 2hrs later goes to the same supermarket and then tests positive. That is a big call for people who don't or can't rely on Ocado.
As I noted weeks ago, a friend of mine recently went to Kew Gardens and was asked to register. Kew Gardens - 300 acres of outdoors open for eight hours. The friend didn't register.
The government generally look set to preside over one of the worst death tolls and largest economic contractions in the world.
We locked down too late in March and seeded the virus into care homes. Our abortive track and trace programme is a monumental failure, given that we all knew that doing that successfully was key to keeping the virus at bay.
Boris’s personal communications have been a case study in how *not* to do it, and indeed turned into a national joke. And his failure to sack Cummings demonstrated that it was one rule for them and another for the rest of us.
Boris should have set up a corona cabinet, with representation from the devolved administrations and opposition parties. The pandemic needs a national effort - and needs to be seen as such. Instead, the government has attempted to play politics throughout.
Indeed there is a strong smell of corruption to the government, given the many millions if not billions that appear to have been awarded to a small number people closely connected to Gove, Cummings and Johnson.
Boris should have postponed the Brexit negotiations to allow focus on the virus. This is not a government with the capability juggle multiple balls. Instead, it is clear that the government have been caught napping as a second wave grew in strength.
SAGE recommended various options to arrest a second wave THREE WEEKS ago. What has the government been doing since then, apart from trying to evade any accountability to parliament?
There is no evidence that the government has learned anything from Japan or South Korea, which are much better comparators than Sweden or fucking New Zealand.
Once again the state has proved it doesn't have any creative thinking, just more of the same that didn't work.
Are we expecting much by way of effort to enforce, except in the most egregious breaches? It is dressed up as law but is effectively guidance.
Then why bother having it? It's like the fines for breaching quarantine, they exist only in theory so no one bothers with them. Even self isolation is in that boat.
There will be some compliance with new restrictions so potential infection will be reduced.
But the people most likely to comply with new restrictions are probably the people least likely to become infected.
I've always said that each country and each demographic has its restrictions tolerance and own cost/benefit decision.
With 90% of infected students asymptomatic there's no hope of anything but minor restrictions of the young.
Who'd be the Government. After days of saying we don't want our businesses damaged etc, the Manchester Mayor this morning appears now to be recommending a short lock down, "circuit breaker". It is important to be a bit consistent, is it not? PS I do not support the government but this is getting ridiculous.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
BigG can speak for himself, but I suppose he has noticed the overlap between commentators critical of both.
Yeah, because the likes of Sir Graham Brady, Steve Baker, Nigel Farage, Toby Young, Fraser Nelson, and Alison Pearson are such arch Remainers.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
It's what their taught. It's crap.
Eesh, can we blame auto-correct for your terrible typo.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
BigG can speak for himself, but I suppose he has noticed the overlap between commentators critical of both.
Yeah, because the likes of Sir Graham Brady, Steve Baker, Nigel Farage, Toby Young, Fraser Nelson, and Alison Pearson are such arch Remainers.
Polarization works both ways.
Indeed, but it points out you and BigG were talking nonsense.
A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in order— (a) to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or (b) to undertake any other activity with each other.
Thanks. (Arguably that even covers going to the toilet )
I can't see that being enforceable. The definition relies far too much on intent and not at all on the actions/activities being engaged in.
You clearly do things differently in your house.
😊
Let's say i go to the pub with a friend. We're going for a drink. We might quite happily not say a word to each other all evening. Or we might exchange a few words every so often. Or we might not. Are we in a gathering? What is the activity we are undertaking with each other?
We get up to leave. We first go to the gents. We're going for a piss. We might quite happily not say a word to each other. Or we might exchange a few words. Or we might not. Are we in a gathering? What is the activity we are undertaking with each other?
I suspect the most important development yesterday was the publication of the SAGE minutes from September 20. SAGE confirms the view that test, trace and isolate is simply not working, and can only be seen as a major failure by government. It was noted by somebody on here, but I don't think enough attention has been paid to it. This is what the minutes said:
An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future.
That is incredibly gloomy. Poor rates of adherence with self-isolation? Testing delays? Low levels of engagement? Further decline in the future?
It strikes me that this is, as some have been saying, the most significant weakness in delivery of government policy, and should be a priority immediately. And by the way, this is what boring old Starmer has been droning on about for weeks....
There is absolutely no chance of getting the virus under control unless test, trace and isolate are much more effective than currently.
Nothing is going to make track and trace work well in this country.
That's the reality and has to be dealt with.
I suspect that's also applies to varying degrees in all countries.
It works in China, where everyone gets tracked everywhere and the police will arrest you if they think you need testing or isolating.
Pretty much everywhere else in the world, some to most people complying depending on the rules and their enforcement.
In the UK and US, no chance even in theory. People just don't like being told what to do, and many will actively do something, because they're being told not to do it and don't think they'll be caught.
A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in order— (a) to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or (b) to undertake any other activity with each other.
Thanks. (Arguably that even covers going to the toilet )
I can't see that being enforceable. The definition relies far too much on intent and not at all on the actions/activities being engaged in.
You clearly do things differently in your house.
😊
Let's say i go to the pub with a friend. We're going for a drink. We might quite happily not say a word to each other all evening. Or we might exchange a few words every so often. Or we might not. Are we in a gathering? What is the activity we are undertaking with each other?
We get up to leave. We first go to the gents. We're going for a piss. We might quite happily not say a word to each other. Or we might exchange a few words. Or we might not. Are we in a gathering? What is the activity we are undertaking with each other?
Mr. B2, it's interesting to consider if it's a lack of intelligence, a lack of courage, or both. I'd suggest both. The PM is scared of not being liked and, for all his dipping into Latin, is not intellectually confident enough to stand up for what he believes to be the right course of action.
Inaction and vacillation are also choices, and when that lurches into decisions without consultation or forewarning it's easy to see why people are aggravated by that.
It is an unfortunate coincidence that at the time of the first pandemic in a century we're governed by a cretin.
Good Morning everyone.
Very good post, Mr D. I don't think Johnson's a cretin, though. I think he's narcissistic; really, really wants to be 'loved', and makes decisions on that basis. He also comes across as extremely selfish.
I think Mr D has nailed it myself. Johnson is always given the benefit of the doubt on his intelligence because he has a degree in Classics from Oxford, which as most people don't, makes him sound very clever . The reality is that he is just about of an age where it was still possible to get into Oxbridge if you went to the right school and had the right connections, plus the potential pool of candidates and therefore competition for Classics is very small. Once there it would be a question of doing just about enough work to get through. I wouldn't go as far as to suggest it was a "Porterhouse Blue" degree, but much of the evidence since his entry into political life suggest he is not the brightest graduate of his college!
Ahh... Porterhouse Blue! Is Tom Sharpe still permitted in these politically correct days? I wonder what BLM would make of his South African books - Riotous Assembly and Indecent Exposure?
I loved his books but you are right, he would fall foul of BLM...
On topic, Nigel is right. Classics is seen as a very easy way in to Oxbridge as is doing multi-courses (e.g. History and Portuguese). When I was applying for Oxford in the 1980s,. I was advised to do Classics as it had a 85% acceptance rate then (and as I did Ancient Greek, I was assured I would get in) rather than History, which I wanted to do but only had a 30% chance.
I suspect the most important development yesterday was the publication of the SAGE minutes from September 20. SAGE confirms the view that test, trace and isolate is simply not working, and can only be seen as a major failure by government. It was noted by somebody on here, but I don't think enough attention has been paid to it. This is what the minutes said:
An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future.
That is incredibly gloomy. Poor rates of adherence with self-isolation? Testing delays? Low levels of engagement? Further decline in the future?
It strikes me that this is, as some have been saying, the most significant weakness in delivery of government policy, and should be a priority immediately. And by the way, this is what boring old Starmer has been droning on about for weeks....
There is absolutely no chance of getting the virus under control unless test, trace and isolate are much more effective than currently.
The difficulty is that if you walk into a supermarket and are asked to register your QR code you are subject to 14 days quarantine if someone 2hrs later goes to the same supermarket and then tests positive. That is a big call for people who don't or can't rely on Ocado.
As I noted weeks ago, a friend of mine recently went to Kew Gardens and was asked to register. Kew Gardens - 300 acres of outdoors open for eight hours. The friend didn't register.
Which is why I haven't bothered with the App. After the fiasco of the first one, putting the risk of serious disruption to my life in the hands of some algorithm the 'rules' of which have never been published is a risk too far.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
BigG can speak for himself, but I suppose he has noticed the overlap between commentators critical of both.
Yeah, because the likes of Sir Graham Brady, Steve Baker, Nigel Farage, Toby Young, Fraser Nelson, and Alison Pearson are such arch Remainers.
Polarization works both ways.
Indeed, but it points out you and BigG were talking nonsense.
Perhaps you could explain where anything I have said this morning is nonsense?
All this goes to show is that there are only really two binary options. Nothing, or national lockdown (ie March style).
Trying to work with QR codes and fannying around when people aren't following it was destined for failure, you can't control human nature. Not without employing a police state.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
Sage recommended a 2 to 3 circuit breaker in September but to close down the whole economy is irresponsible, especially as large parts do not have the levels of infection as the metro areas
Andy Burnham saying he thinks we should have a circuit breaker thereby wanting to close down the whole economy rather than address why his area is in the situation it is. Also as in the previous lockdown who is to guarantee a circuit break will last for 3 weeks and how we would ever get out of it
I believe the present 3 tiers is the best way forward and the rules are more easily understood
In the end there are those who want complete lockdown and others who want the exact opposite, while there are many who just want the government to fail because they are implementing Brexit
I do not envy any leader at present and in all this furore it needs to be noted that a lot of tier 3 requirements were implemented in Scotland by Nicola Sturgeon three weeks ago, and today we have Drakeford threatening to close the Welsh border, yes he really is
Name one person who wants the government to fail because they implemented brexit, what utter tosh.
There are many who have never accepted brexit and never will
Only a fool would want to die of Covid to prove Brexit was a bad idea.
In the realm of issues Brexit is a molehill, Covid is a mountain. Only in a worm's-eye view are they comparable.
So why is BigG. linking criticism of Johnson's Covid performance to Brexit? The two notions aren't remotely inclusive.
BigG can speak for himself, but I suppose he has noticed the overlap between commentators critical of both.
Yeah, because the likes of Sir Graham Brady, Steve Baker, Nigel Farage, Toby Young, Fraser Nelson, and Alison Pearson are such arch Remainers.
Polarization works both ways.
Indeed, but it points out you and BigG were talking nonsense.
Perhaps you could explain where anything I have said this morning is nonsense?
I don't have the time to do that, I already have one full time job.
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
It's what their taught. It's crap.
Eesh, can we blame auto-correct for your terrible typo.
It has triggered me.
Yep, apologies.. Edit, because I am catching up the thread I didn't even see it until it was too late to correct.
I suspect the most important development yesterday was the publication of the SAGE minutes from September 20. SAGE confirms the view that test, trace and isolate is simply not working, and can only be seen as a major failure by government. It was noted by somebody on here, but I don't think enough attention has been paid to it. This is what the minutes said:
An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future.
That is incredibly gloomy. Poor rates of adherence with self-isolation? Testing delays? Low levels of engagement? Further decline in the future?
It strikes me that this is, as some have been saying, the most significant weakness in delivery of government policy, and should be a priority immediately. And by the way, this is what boring old Starmer has been droning on about for weeks....
There is absolutely no chance of getting the virus under control unless test, trace and isolate are much more effective than currently.
The difficulty is that if you walk into a supermarket and are asked to register your QR code you are subject to 14 days quarantine if someone 2hrs later goes to the same supermarket and then tests positive. That is a big call for people who don't or can't rely on Ocado.
As I noted weeks ago, a friend of mine recently went to Kew Gardens and was asked to register. Kew Gardens - 300 acres of outdoors open for eight hours. The friend didn't register.
Same thing at a nature reserve - they were apologetic about it, clearly also seeing how silly it was. In most cases clearly irrelevant even if we were there at the exact same time as someone infected. We did also visit the cafe, where scanning in (with a separate code) could at least be relevant, even though they were doing a pretty good job with distancing the tables. There was however no code to scan on entering the cafe.
Re @Northern_Al 's post above, as someone who writes scientific reports and it used to their careful wording, the words used there are damning. 'difficult to ascertain' and 'marginal' are science-speak for f-ing useless.
A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in order— (a) to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or (b) to undertake any other activity with each other.
Thanks. (Arguably that even covers going to the toilet )
I can't see that being enforceable. The definition relies far too much on intent and not at all on the actions/activities being engaged in.
Key words are 'In order' and 'with each other'.
1000 people in the same shop is not a gathering ('with each other' does not apply)
Families talking when they meet in the street is not a gathering (will someone tell the Home Secretary who thinks it is) because the meeting is not 'in order' to so engage - it's random. In my small town we would all be in prison by now....
It has to rely on intent. You can't fine people for the crime of happening on a friend in the street. Yet.
It has to be boring and precise because it is creating criminal offences and we live in a free society where you are entitled to know what a crime is. (Would someone tell some less bright police officers this?)
Turn the radio on for Today. Within two minutes I am shouting at it. Didn't catch the name but some science advisor seemed to saying unless we have a full national lockdown the virus will double and then double again and then double again ad infinitum until we do lockdown.
It's what their taught. It's crap.
Eesh, can we blame auto-correct for your terrible typo.
I suspect the most important development yesterday was the publication of the SAGE minutes from September 20. SAGE confirms the view that test, trace and isolate is simply not working, and can only be seen as a major failure by government. It was noted by somebody on here, but I don't think enough attention has been paid to it. This is what the minutes said:
An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future.
That is incredibly gloomy. Poor rates of adherence with self-isolation? Testing delays? Low levels of engagement? Further decline in the future?
It strikes me that this is, as some have been saying, the most significant weakness in delivery of government policy, and should be a priority immediately. And by the way, this is what boring old Starmer has been droning on about for weeks....
There is absolutely no chance of getting the virus under control unless test, trace and isolate are much more effective than currently.
The difficulty is that if you walk into a supermarket and are asked to register your QR code you are subject to 14 days quarantine if someone 2hrs later goes to the same supermarket and then tests positive. That is a big call for people who don't or can't rely on Ocado.
As I noted weeks ago, a friend of mine recently went to Kew Gardens and was asked to register. Kew Gardens - 300 acres of outdoors open for eight hours. The friend didn't register.
Which is why I haven't bothered with the App. After the fiasco of the first one, putting the risk of serious disruption to my life in the hands of some algorithm the 'rules' of which have never been published is a risk too far.
Following that, any track and trace scheme was destined for failure if people all do the same.
A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in order— (a) to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or (b) to undertake any other activity with each other.
Thanks. (Arguably that even covers going to the toilet )
I can't see that being enforceable. The definition relies far too much on intent and not at all on the actions/activities being engaged in.
You clearly do things differently in your house.
😊
Let's say i go to the pub with a friend. We're going for a drink. We might quite happily not say a word to each other all evening. Or we might exchange a few words every so often. Or we might not. Are we in a gathering? What is the activity we are undertaking with each other?
We get up to leave. We first go to the gents. We're going for a piss. We might quite happily not say a word to each other. Or we might exchange a few words. Or we might not. Are we in a gathering? What is the activity we are undertaking with each other?
Or another viewpoint - little Tommy tells me he needs to go for a number 2 and is currently in toilet training. We go to the loo together and are definitely engaged in an "activity".
What do the regulations say about that? Is little Tommy up for a £10K fine?
Once again the state has proved it doesn't have any creative thinking, just more of the same that didn't work.
Are we expecting much by way of effort to enforce, except in the most egregious breaches? It is dressed up as law but is effectively guidance.
Then why bother having it? It's like the fines for breaching quarantine, they exist only in theory so no one bothers with them. Even self isolation is in that boat.
There will be some compliance with new restrictions so potential infection will be reduced.
But the people most likely to comply with new restrictions are probably the people least likely to become infected.
I've always said that each country and each demographic has its restrictions tolerance and own cost/benefit decision.
With 90% of infected students asymptomatic there's no hope of anything but minor restrictions of the young.
Agree. Plus unemployment figures out today show that the brunt of the economic effect is being felt by young people. So their "sacrifice" is doubly difficult to enforce/comply with given their usually asymptomatic condition.
Comments
When you're in a private home - easy. When you're at an organised event where all participants are invited - easy.
But when you visit a pub? I haven't a clue. It seems to me that any and all people in a pub at any one time are at a "gathering". Whether they know them or not. But clearly that is not the case, or pubs would all be shut.
In a wider sense there is also what Matthew Parris years ago called the 'pistachio nut at the end of the party' issue. A sophisticated society can solve and manage a huge range of problems, from smallpox to famine to illiteracy and lots of other things. This leaves the uncrackable nuts, insoluble problems, looming at the bottom of the bowl at the end of the party. This could add to the list. So could Brexit. The list of problems that don't have solutions is interesting. Try:
The Riemann hypothesis
North Korea
Drug dealing
Is the EU a state
Ireland
Taxing the super rich
Money laundering
for a start.
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/oct/13/trench-warfare-drones-and-cowering-civilians-on-the-ground-in-nagorno-karabakh
I thought at the time it was simply because there weren’t yet any foreign journalists there.
I got so tired of the opinions and reporting (no, Peston, I don't need to hear you take seven minutes to ramble a probably incorrect prediction when you should be reporting facts) that I stopped regularly watching news. Haven't done so for months. Haven't missed it.
Trump is a successful campaigner. He is not a good politician.
BoZo is a good campaigner. He is a bad politician.
When there's a national crisis going on, everyone needs to play their role in informing the public what's happening - and the hyperbolic language and oppositionism needs to be turned down a lot.
The TV news headlines this morning should have been a dry explanation of what the new restrictions mean in practice, and pointing people at official sources of information - rather than have one person saying it's not enough and another saying it's far too much, shouting over each other for 5 minutes generating way more heat than light.
As very many Tories, including a few on PB, spent a long time telling us, before making him the leader.
Brexit does nothing to help us right now. Who gives a shit about Brexit?
It's happened. We have left. I don't think there is anybody who doesn't accept the passage of time.
So there is nobody who doesn't "accept" the fact of Brexit happening.
But there appear to be many who still don't accept the fact it's a shitshow.
https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1315762296283594754
So the absence of proper financial compensation to unviable pubs in "High Risk" areas covering most urban areas in the North and Midlands is actively endangering health outcomes, by putting landlords in an impossible position.
I hold Sunak not Johnson responsible for this.
You do a circuit breaker if you guarantee 100% that the restrictions imposed will be lifted after two weeks (or whatever the proposed period is). Regardless of what happens to the numbers over that period. If you could do that you might get public and business buy in. A national effort, everyone stay in their homes for two weeks. Break the circuit.
But nobody would be prepared to give that guarantee (look at Sturgeon and her "shut the pubs for 16 days (but it might be longer" policy). And if people have no confidence that the restrictions will be lifted (because numbers will continue to grow for the period of the restrictions and they will be extended) then they will ignore them. Carry on as normal. The pubs/restaurants/cafes/shops will be shut - and everyone will spend the two weeks visiting each others houses outside of the realms of enforcement.
As for the three tier system being simple, it is not a three tier system: a) it doesn't have a low risk tier, and b) the highest risk tier is divided into multiple tiers.
And as for you linkage to Brexit. Pah!
When the clowns put on a 3 ring circus, you have to report the custard pies...
This is the first poll to indicate a positive for brexit
Yes, he won a large majority. Against a man reviled. That does not mean he's fit to govern.
Even from a purely partisan Conservative perspective, throwing out the clown will be advantageous for the party, not to mention the benefits for the nation.
Alas, the modern Conservative Party seems to no longer base its attitude to leadership on 4th century BC Macedon.
There is a control strategy available, and that is cheap mass testing.
You could buy enough antigen tests for testing half the population every fortnight for about £200m a month if production capacity were ramped up.
In the short term, you’d need to finance a very large amount of isolation of infected individuals, as @MaxPB has previously suggested, but that would not be an ongoing expense.
That might enable a return to normal life.
If drug supplies are interrupted by Brexit, the two will collide
That's not bad reporting...
p.s. first flag gratefully received.
But I detest Boris and his lickspittle clique because they are talentless a**holes who could not run a bath.
BTW - the Brexit obsessives are in Boris's Cabinet aka the former Tory Party. Perhaps MrG should ponder that before he puckers up to them...
That still leaves 94%
Now, ministers and civil servants are just as guilty as the MSM - they need to stop briefing friendly hacks and having their disagreements in public too. They should be arguing in private and agreeing in public, and policies need to be communicated officially first (as we saw yesterday) without days of prior speculation.
Regarding specific actions taken he has made errors of course. However, the broad range of actions taken in the UK are remarkably similar to much of the rest of Europe and indeed the UK, with pretty much the same rates of success. Just one example is the 'rule of 6' which has appeared here in Spain a couple of weeks after the UK. There are many others. He is the leader so gets the bulk of the criticism. However, a large part of that criticism has its source in those who wish harm on the government for ideological reasons. Most of the ' he should have done this commentary' is either wrong or hindisght.
An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future.
That is incredibly gloomy. Poor rates of adherence with self-isolation? Testing delays? Low levels of engagement? Further decline in the future?
It strikes me that this is, as some have been saying, the most significant weakness in delivery of government policy, and should be a priority immediately. And by the way, this is what boring old Starmer has been droning on about for weeks....
There is absolutely no chance of getting the virus under control unless test, trace and isolate are much more effective than currently.
Once again the state has proved it doesn't have any creative thinking, just more of the same that didn't work.
A gathering takes place when two or more persons are present together in the same place in
order—
(a) to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or
(b) to undertake any other activity with each other.
Can't blame Labour for that...
The only way it can even begin to be enforced is if we all sign up for Pritt's brigade of snitches
That's the reality and has to be dealt with.
I suspect that's also applies to varying degrees in all countries.
The ability of any leader to steer beyond the storm is more limited than we would wish.
None of which changes the fact that most times our own leader touches the tiller we end up closer to the rocks. And our boat is taking on more water than almost any.
The weakness of course is that this pressure is strongest among those groups and demographics that would have taken the most precautions anyway, and vice versa.
I can't see that being enforceable. The definition relies far too much on intent and not at all on the actions/activities being engaged in.
I watched this fellow on GMB this morning. The Tory boycott of the show has led to sycophancy beyond belief from Labour guests towards Piers and Susanna - understandable enough I guess. A lot of people watch it, could be a factor at the next Election
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1315906796645765121?s=21
As I noted weeks ago, a friend of mine recently went to Kew Gardens and was asked to register. Kew Gardens - 300 acres of outdoors open for eight hours. The friend didn't register.
We locked down too late in March and seeded the virus into care homes. Our abortive track and trace programme is a monumental failure, given that we all knew that doing that successfully was key to keeping the virus at bay.
Boris’s personal communications have been a case study in how *not* to do it, and indeed turned into a national joke. And his failure to sack Cummings demonstrated that it was one rule for them and another for the rest of us.
Boris should have set up a corona cabinet, with representation from the devolved administrations and opposition parties. The pandemic needs a national effort - and needs to be seen as such. Instead, the government has attempted to play politics throughout.
Indeed there is a strong smell of corruption to the government, given the many millions if not billions that appear to have been awarded to a small number people closely connected to Gove, Cummings and Johnson.
Boris should have postponed the Brexit negotiations to allow focus on the virus. This is not a government with the capability juggle multiple balls. Instead, it is clear that the government have been caught napping as a second wave grew in strength.
SAGE recommended various options to arrest a second wave THREE WEEKS ago. What has the government been doing since then, apart from trying to evade any accountability to parliament?
There is no evidence that the government has learned anything from Japan or South Korea, which are much better comparators than Sweden or fucking New Zealand.
But the people most likely to comply with new restrictions are probably the people least likely to become infected.
I've always said that each country and each demographic has its restrictions tolerance and own cost/benefit decision.
With 90% of infected students asymptomatic there's no hope of anything but minor restrictions of the young.
PS I do not support the government but this is getting ridiculous.
It has triggered me.
Let's say i go to the pub with a friend. We're going for a drink. We might quite happily not say a word to each other all evening. Or we might exchange a few words every so often. Or we might not. Are we in a gathering? What is the activity we are undertaking with each other?
We get up to leave. We first go to the gents. We're going for a piss. We might quite happily not say a word to each other. Or we might exchange a few words. Or we might not. Are we in a gathering? What is the activity we are undertaking with each other?
Stop spending money on track and trace and use it to subsidise restricted business.
Pretty much everywhere else in the world, some to most people complying depending on the rules and their enforcement.
In the UK and US, no chance even in theory. People just don't like being told what to do, and many will actively do something, because they're being told not to do it and don't think they'll be caught.
On topic, Nigel is right. Classics is seen as a very easy way in to Oxbridge as is doing multi-courses (e.g. History and Portuguese). When I was applying for Oxford in the 1980s,. I was advised to do Classics as it had a 85% acceptance rate then (and as I did Ancient Greek, I was assured I would get in) rather than History, which I wanted to do but only had a 30% chance.
I did History and still got in....:)
You've certainly been calling for another lockdown since at least September.
Not to say that the rest of Europe isn't in a similar position.
Trying to work with QR codes and fannying around when people aren't following it was destined for failure, you can't control human nature. Not without employing a police state.
Edit, because I am catching up the thread I didn't even see it until it was too late to correct.
Re @Northern_Al 's post above, as someone who writes scientific reports and it used to their careful wording, the words used there are damning. 'difficult to ascertain' and 'marginal' are science-speak for f-ing useless.
1000 people in the same shop is not a gathering ('with each other' does not apply)
Families talking when they meet in the street is not a gathering (will someone tell the Home Secretary who thinks it is) because the meeting is not 'in order' to so engage - it's random. In my small town we would all be in prison by now....
It has to rely on intent. You can't fine people for the crime of happening on a friend in the street. Yet.
It has to be boring and precise because it is creating criminal offences and we live in a free society where you are entitled to know what a crime is. (Would someone tell some less bright police officers this?)
Italy and Germany are notably - so far - doing OK.
Is that better for you?
What do the regulations say about that? Is little Tommy up for a £10K fine?